Fire Storm and Spirits [Archive] - The Unofficial GuildWars Site

Hyoga

21-01-2006, 04:53

What exactly is a Ritualist supposed to do in such a scenario?

I mean, the spirits can't move. The spirits can't be healed. The spirits will die. The Ritualist is now facing recharge times.

Spreading spirits so that they are not close together is not really a viable strategy. Moving from spot to spot and summoning would take a while due to the casting times of the spirit summons. In a 4 on 4 scenario, the Ritualist would never have every spirit up on time.

Ritualists need a way to heal their spirits. Even Necromancers have Verata's Sacrifice. The Ritualist has nothing. This makes no sense as a Ritualist is FAR more dependent on spirits than a Necromancer is on minions.

Their super lonhg recharge times renders the Ritualist just about obsolete once their spirits die. Fire Storm and other such AoE spells kills them very fast, with little effort.

The only thing one could do would be to bring a skill like Oath Shot in order to rapidly recharge your spirits, in the advent of their death.

The Ritualist is fun, and I love the profession, but this needs to be addressed.

Either:

a) Give the ritualist some way to heal their spirits. OR
b) Make the spirits mobile, in the sense that they follow their summoner. OR
c) Decrease their recharge time.

The most appropriate one I think is option a). Spirits don't live forever. They have time limits. They are going to die anyway. They can be killed. By allowing the Ritualist to heal them, all they are doing is keeping them alive for their duration. They are not extending their duration by any means. But being so dependant upon them, one would try to ensure that they remain.

If every Ritualist were required to have a recharge decreasing Elite skill, many builds would not be possible. The recharge time of the spirits is only worth it if the spirits actually live for their duration.

That is my rant, and my plea. Now, if anyone can suggest me ways to avoid uselessness after my spirits are killed and I have the recharge time to face WITHOUT using a recharge time skill, please tell me. Decreased recharge times should HELP the profession, not make them useful.

EDIT: The only spirit healing skill I know of is Spirit Boon Strike. And that requires points in Channeling, the attack tree. Few healing Ritualists are going to be having points there. There needs to be a general spirit healing skill. Maybe I've overlooked it, but I do not see it.

JeanDeathwish

21-01-2006, 05:18

There is one heal:
Signet of Creation (availability)
Description: All spirits and animated creatures in the area gain + 1-6 Health regeneration. After 30 seconds, those spirits and creatures are destroyed.
Energy Cost: None.
Activation Time: 2 Seconds.
Recharge Time: 10 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Spawning. Increases Health regeneration.
Skill Type: Signet.

Id say its a good skill but it kills your spirits after 30 sec... in some cases thats actually a good thing...

EDIT: Over looked Spirit Boon Strike so its possible we both missed a few...

Radical Dreamer

21-01-2006, 05:30

I feel your pain they feel very useless without spirits.

Fighting agenst them feels unfair they die like flies

I will still have a Ritualist but I just want to try more skills

I didnt have time to get alot of faction before so It feels strange

But then we are just "testers"

Frizzy

21-01-2006, 05:48

IlikeGW

21-01-2006, 05:53

I'm interested to see what happens to the poor rit. It's cool, but like mesmers does not fit the roving dps spike style of play Americans play at all. Will we get more people leading with camping style rit strategies? You have to anyway for iway so maybe...

Deldda Kcarc

21-01-2006, 05:57

Now, if anyone can suggest me ways to avoid uselessness after my spirits are killed and I have the recharge time to face WITHOUT using a recharge time skill, please tell me.
Doom. Strike target foe for 16 lightning damage for every recharging Binding Ritual you have (Spawning, 10/1/15).

Hyoga

21-01-2006, 07:23

you are so viewing this wrong.

this a great way to increase the variety in PvP, because by doing this AOE is now useful. All teams run some form of focus fire whether it be through spike or hexes or whatever. It creates a "big picture" atmosphere where you have to view more of the playing field rather then just your team and one single opponent. Nukers finallys have a purpose in PvP, to help counter spirits. Great observation.

That's not it at all.

I realized that from the beginning, and I am all for Nukers gaining more acceptance.

The only problem is that it is not a BUILD that Nukers would be countering, but a PROFESSION. Totally different story.

If my Trapper build doesn't work because people keeping interrupting me, that's ok, I have other builds to choose from that don't require traps at all.

Now if my spirits don't work as a Ritualist, then.... uh... I have no other build because ALL my builds are spirit dependent. The nuker doesn't cancel out a build, it cancels out the profession.

There is one heal:
Signet of Creation (availability)
Description: All spirits and animated creatures in the area gain + 1-6 Health regeneration. After 30 seconds, those spirits and creatures are destroyed.
Energy Cost: None.
Activation Time: 2 Seconds.
Recharge Time: 10 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Spawning. Increases Health regeneration.
Skill Type: Signet.

Yeah, you see why I didn't mention this skill. Because it reduces the duration of every spirit you cast. I don't really want to reduce my spirits duration through healing. I want to make them last their precise amount. This skill is only good if you're spirits are about to die, because you actually increase their duration at that point.

Doom.

Err... yes... but... that serves little purpose to someone who wants to be healing...
And it doesn't really do much damage when you only have 2-3 spirits on recharge, but the lack of those 2-3 spirits severely cripples the Ritualist if your skills depend on them.

Dark Emissary

21-01-2006, 08:01

You know, ritualist OWNS mesmer like crazy...

Why ?

First, we cannot hex your spirits. So, bye bye illusion mesmer.
Second, our armor is low, so your spirits (3 or 4) REALLY damage us.
Third, BINDING RITUALS are not SPELL. So, Power drain, power spike and others are wasted when you cast those.
Fourth, killing spirit is too hard, I do not deal enough damage...

As you can see, you still have some strength... Maybe nuker is your weakspot, well, rangers and warriors are mine. I think it's normal...

Now, if only monks could have a weak spot... Maybe assassin is it ?

MasterNightfall

21-01-2006, 08:10

Now, if only monks could have a weak spot... Maybe assassin is it ?

The monk weak spot is called interrupts, energy denial, and focus fire.

salaboB

21-01-2006, 08:16

In my experience, firestorm does depressingly little against high level spirits.

Dominix Angelus

21-01-2006, 08:25

Perhaps they should make a 'Hyoga was paranoid" binding spell that heals your spirits once u drop the ashes?

SepticFlesh

21-01-2006, 08:32

CKaz

21-01-2006, 08:49

Sword Chucker

21-01-2006, 08:58

From what I've seen by skimming through the limited skill list, nearly all the skills, save a few, benefit from having a spirit near by.

A ranger does not have skills that benefit from having a ton of traps down at the surface level. (You may use the more subtle means, but they aren't saying "If target Foe is in a trap, X happens.") The Ritualist has such skills, and since most of what they released to us seems to depend on spirits, carrying around and dropping items, and such, then maybe adding in a little something extra wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Pain and Blood were the only spirits who nearly lived to the end of their duration for me, Wander Lust and Earthbind were dead within seconds, and they have about a 60 second recharge. And they died from their ability, not from being attacked.

Not to mention, so what if you can't interrupt the Ritual or Hex the ritual? Why not just Hex the Ritualist? Why not use Cry of Frustration? Why not annoy them even more and use Diversion? You're thinking of the Mesmer in a narrow context, because the Mesmer can cause pain in more ways than just health.

And personally, I'd love to see Nukers get wider acceptance over all. I just wish they'd do something about Gale. It went from one of those "If you know how to use it" to nothing but spam spam spam!

Of course, maybe as a Healing Ritualist, it wouldn't hurt to bring Monk along as a secondary. The Ritualist was an alternative, after all, not a replacement. Heal Area should do the job.

MadCatvanHelsing

21-01-2006, 10:22

I like the Ritualist and his spirits, but true, they drop like flies, must be the really low level.
Level 7/8 spirits with communing on 12, that is low, even horrors, fiends and minions have more level. the only thing that keeps them alive long enough is the "spawning" atribute.

btw, something i noticed, NPC enemys dont atack spirits that fast.

Trinculo

21-01-2006, 12:15

Loving the Ritualist

So far unlocked
Essence Strike: 5 Cost 1 Cast 8 Recharge
Spell: Target Foe is struck for 41 lightning damage. If any spirits are in the area around you, you gain 6 Energy. (Channeling)

Painful Bond: 15 Cost 1 Cast 20 Recharge
Hex Spell: For 17 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes take 17 damage whenever hit by a Spirit's attack (Channeling)

Spirit Burn: 5 Cost 1 Cast 5 Recharge
Spell: Target foe is struck for 41 lightning damage. If any Spirits are in teh area around you, Spirit Burn deals +27 damage (Channeling)

and last (so far)

Explosive Growth: 15 Cost 2 Cast 45 Recharge
Enchantment Spell: For 51 seconds, whenever you create a creature, up to 5 foes near that creature are struck for 56 lightning damage (Spawning)

I love these.

Yes I know
Spirits don't last long, but if you can get your tank or 55 Monk/Necro to aggro well, then all you need do is create a Spirit Cage around your opponents. Have you noticed they act as a wall? and anything stuck inside a cage of spirits can't get out?

Plus you have
Rupture Soul 10 Cost 1 Cast 20 Recharge
Spell: Target Allied Spirit is Destroyed! All nearby enemies are struck for 122 lightning damage and become blinded for 10 seconds (Spawning). If you see one of the spirits dying, Kill if off yourself. And reap the rewards from it.
Or if no one is near just use
Spirit Siphon Cost 5 1/4 Cast 3 Recharge
Spell: Target Spirit loses all Energy. You gain 27% of that Energy (Channeling)

Look at the Spirits you get as part of the Template:
Earthbind 15 Cost 5 Cast 60 Recharge
Binding Ritual: Create a Level 9 Spirit. All foes knocked down within its range are knocked down for at least 3 seconds. Whenever this happens, this Spirit loses 28 Health. This Spirit dies after 41 seconds. (Communing)
Pain 5 Cost 3 Cast 45 Recharge
Binding Ritual: Create a Level 9 Spirit. This Spirit's attacks deal 18 damage. This Spirit dies after 134 seconds (Communing)
Shadowsong 10 Cost 5 Cast 45 Recharge
Binding Ritual. Create a Level 7 Spirit. This Spirit's attacks cause Blindnesss for 5 seconds. This Spirit dies after 30 seconds (Communing)
BloodSong 15 Cost 5 Cast 60 Recharge
Binding Ritual: Create a Level 7 Spirit who dies after 134 seconds. Attacks by that Spirit steal up to 18 Health. (Communing)

So you figure in a firestorm or lava attack the Level 7 will die first. Except the Bloodsong if you can lead the enemy into them will steal 18 health each strike. They last pretty long when fed well. Its your Earthbinds that die faster than any other. Since they lose health each strike. Those are the one you focus on blowing up.

But my cages usually become Pains and Bloodsongs. And I don't really want to see Chained Spirits walking around. Way too much of a Christmas Story and Ebeneezer's buddy Marley.

But thats me. And I love this Prof.
Now I just need to get Dissonance, Vital Weapon, Vengeful Weapon, Splinter Weapon and Wailing Weapon.

Plus now with the Spirits yes AOEs have a place again. Ever tried making Spirits SUFFER?

ArKayne

21-01-2006, 13:10

I love being a Restoration, I've bought a few good healing skills, Signet of Creation, seeing as most spirits last for 45 seconds it's very good, besides I love Life, when it dies, it heals all your allies in the area for 4 points for each second it was alive and it lasts 30 seconds, I'm loving Ritualist, makes being a healer much more fun.

Kyrion Hellcat

21-01-2006, 16:46

Now, if only monks could have a weak spot...
The monk weak spot is called interrupts, energy denial, and focus fire.

Well that's the counter to EVERYTHING... I think emissary is asking for something more specific...

Skig Galco

21-01-2006, 16:57

spirit boon strike
Target foe is struck for 10-82 lightning damage, and all spirits near you gain 10-82 Health.

Recuperation
Create a level 1-8 spirit. Allies within its range gane +1-3 Health regeneration. This spirit dies after 15-39 seconds.

Signet of Creation
All spirits and animated creatures in the area gain + 1-6 Health regeneration. After 30 seconds, those spirits and creatures are destroyed.

they have healing, did from the start, this is only the list i've tested for, i'm sure the other "heal ally" area of effect spells heal spirit to, since they are allies and all.....just a thought

SnipiousMax

21-01-2006, 18:18

Spirits aren't the only build for a Ritualist. True a lot of skills have to do w/ bonding...but saying they're helpless w/o spirits is like saying a ranger can only use a bow. They have many direct damage spells, or support spells. I wanna try a weapon/ash build (working on faction to get skills) I think the Ritualist will add alot to PvP.

Hyoga

21-01-2006, 21:02

Ok so these spirits can mitigate area damage very well on the restore side and do their own AoE. But you object to AoE being used to help clear it? :rolleyes:

Hey I'd love to see a real use for Firestorm again, maybe there's hope for an occasional use for it and the ele henchy! But as noted I think I tried this waaay back and was disappointed at what it did to ranger spirits. I hardly doubt this creates any kind of imbalance.

Ritualists can 'set up shop' better than anyone.
If you stacked all your spirits right together maybe that was a mistake?

Again I'm more FOR it - some of these new techniques of the Ritualist seem to outshine monk and elementalist. If there isn't some weakness (ie immobility) then why play or have the other 2 around yet at all.

Read my second post. I am all for nukers gaining more acceptance and purpose in groups.

The only problem is that there is no way for a Ritualist to really save his spirits from onslaught without using a skill that [b]decreases/b] their duration (Signet of Creation).

Ideally, the heal should not be there to prevent Fire Stom from doing it's job, but to try and fight it back, or else the majority of Ritualist builds have no chance.

Also, as I mentioned, Ritualist have no choice BUT to set up their spirits in one spot. You generally want them out by the time the battle starts because they have long cast times, and also, you want them to effect everyone in your party, and the only way to do that is to have them all affect the same radius.

Recuperation

It does not effect spirits. They are not considered allied. It only effects those in your party window. You'll notice that it also does not effect Necromance minions.

The other skills you mentioned have already been covered.

lumimantteli

21-01-2006, 22:27

Yep. This Thread is home for me. I tried both of the pre-made Rt:s. When I tried them, I noticed that the spirits block people, warriors, rangers and assasins wasted loads of dps trying to destroy them.

In TA actually, my guild used a monk for heal, ranger for dust and barbed traps, and ritualist for making spirits, to do damage/protect/block people. It was godlike. Assasins, with their codition spamming skills wasted time, rangers, with poison, bleed etc. attacks wasted attacks on some nefarious spirits. Loads of damage away from monk, that kept us alive.

The battles lasted as long as one of the teams lagged out, or growed frustated and leaved. Ritaulist is really hard to take down, even without superior runes and/or "best" skills.

Then it came to me. Nuker. Echo Nuker.

The rest is history. Two shots from wand per spirit + a well placed Fire Storm desimated up to three spirits at a time. Thats over 9 seconds of cast time away from Rt, while I use 4 on the Fire Storm. Easy. Efficient. Owning.

This lasted for awhile, Nuker shined both in TA and Random Areana.

Then I changed back to my trusty ranger, and played some more. I noticed, that while I was horrendously unable to take down a Restoration Rt. I was making Assasins a complete laughing stock. I even had to use Dust Trap to damage the spirits! No conditions on them it seems. I am pretty sure why my ranger had so much trouble against the Soulbinders. Weapon of Warding and Mend Body and Soul. These two skills made it so hard. I was unable to take down the spirits fast, I was unable to "distract" the Rt:s from Mend Body and Soul, really only because of Weapon of Warding. They got so lucky!

Now, to summarize. No conditions of spirits. Ok. Rarely anyone stands below continuous AoE. Ok. So, to make Fire Storm even a tad bit more efficient... Why not CHAIN the spirits to the ground! Thats just what all the Fire Elementalist have been looking for. A blind and a little dumb Rt :laugh: . Just joking. I think the AoE weakness of spirits is their only weakness. Ritualist *can* manage their spirits so that even when they die they are useful. Think the numbers.

Veregre

21-01-2006, 23:04

Doom them to death? And hope they arnt wearing Aeromance armor.

Radical Dreamer

22-01-2006, 02:46

The thing that gets me is the lightning dmage of the ritualist the ranger armor and ele armore will make them hard to kill. If it wasnt elemental it would be unblalanced probably. I just wish I could try thoes skills Its like they showed us candy and said you have to go get money for it but it might not be here when you get back.

Hyoga

22-01-2006, 02:53

Doom them to death? And hope they arnt wearing Aeromance armor.

As I said before, Doom does you no good when you want to be healing your party or using your other skills. Doom has a recharge time too... can't keep spamming it.

What I'm trying to say people, is that Fire Storms destroy spirit builds AS fast, if not faster, than the old Nature's Renewal destroyed hex and enchantment builds.

What happened to the old Nature's Renewal? Nerfed so hard into the ground that it was never used again, just about.

I don't want Nukers nerfed. I don't want Fire Storm nerfed. It's situational enough as it is. I want spirit Ritualists to have a chance. No build should be able to effectively cancel out another through one spell, one button.

That is why Nature's Renewal was changed.

Van Tomiko

22-01-2006, 03:28

a) Give the ritualist some way to heal their spirits. OR
b) Make the spirits mobile, in the sense that they follow their summoner. OR
c) Decrease their recharge time.

Totally agree. I remember back there where Meteor Shower recharge time was like 2 minutes right?. BTW, thats more good suggestions. Its still in testing stage. I guess ANET will nerf and push up skills over time to time.

b) Make the spirits mobile, in the sense that they follow their summoner. OR

To think it back, if spirits follow the summoner, you can use those "VASE/ASHES" skills to attack. Cast Spirits, charge and hold up those ashes. That will be devastating. Hmm hmm ..... balancing issues here ....

FireballX

22-01-2006, 10:32

Fire elementalists in PvP will be a problem for spirit-based ritualists.

They will be smashed in the face by a hammer.

Because of the fact that having 5 spirits up allows the ritualist to perform decimating attacks, I feel that having the spirits be also easily killed is a decent counter. The spirits do things on their own, and your attacks are augmented by them - if you were allowed to keep the spirits up nigh-indefinitely the Rt would be supremely overpowered.

So nah, I don't think they need a buff. At the very least whatever killed the spirit wasted his time on the spirit instead of attacking your team.

TBMarauder

22-01-2006, 15:10

Binding Rituals are also losing health every time they attack or 'perform' their allotted task, additional to their lifespan and any attacks from the enemy, be it physical, elemental etc. In that respect at least, they are balanced. ;)

Erasculio

22-01-2006, 16:11

I think you're seeing it in a too narrow context. You want a Ritualist that can

1) Heal everyone

2) Not use any other Ritualist skill line other than the ones you consider required to just heal (since, as far as I understood, that's why you don't want to use Spirit Boon Strike)

3) Not use Doom in a context that helps you (you know, you don't have to cast it if it's in your skill bar; if the spirits are at 100% duration, you also don't need to cast it, you may wait until they have only 30 seconds to survive and then cast it, without any loss; and if they're under attack, you may as well cast it considering how they would die in less than 30 seconds without a heal)

4) Survive against a possible attack by an AoE spell, assuming it cannot be stopped in some other way (long casting time + spirit that interrupts = goodbye most AoEs)

5) Cast the spirits at the same place (something that is far from being necessary, as you can cast them in different formations to encompass the area you are in - make them in a triangle with a 90° and the longer side facing the direction your oponents will come from, as you ask the rest of your team to wait at the center of the triangle, to give one example)

6) Not use any Monk skill to heal the spirits, despite the fact you are a healer. Orison of Healing, for example

So yeah, if you want to do all of the above I don't think you're going to be able to do it, and thankfuly for that.

Erasculio

Frizzy

22-01-2006, 17:09

That's not it at all.

I realized that from the beginning, and I am all for Nukers gaining more acceptance.

The only problem is that it is not a BUILD that Nukers would be countering, but a PROFESSION. Totally different story.

If my Trapper build doesn't work because people keeping interrupting me, that's ok, I have other builds to choose from that don't require traps at all.

Now if my spirits don't work as a Ritualist, then.... uh... I have no other build because ALL my builds are spirit dependent. The nuker doesn't cancel out a build, it cancels out the profession.

Yeah, you see why I didn't mention this skill. Because it reduces the duration of every spirit you cast. I don't really want to reduce my spirits duration through healing. I want to make them last their precise amount. This skill is only good if you're spirits are about to die, because you actually increase their duration at that point.

Err... yes... but... that serves little purpose to someone who wants to be healing...
And it doesn't really do much damage when you only have 2-3 spirits on recharge, but the lack of those 2-3 spirits severely cripples the Ritualist if your skills depend on them.

They do not counter a whole profession. Look closer at the ritualists spells, they have many other purposes besides spirits. The weapons are incredibly powerful along with the new ashes spells. Also their Channeling lightning skills do great damage. I mean you could also argue that a mesmer was able to counter a whole profession (warrior) with degen and empathy n ineptitude and stuff like that. But people overlook the warrior's tactics skills which are very helpful. Shields up is one of the best ways to stop ranger spikes. Watch yourself and Fear Me are also great to use often.

Hyoga

23-01-2006, 01:40

I think you're seeing it in a too narrow context. You want a Ritualist that can

1) Heal everyone

No, I want to be able to heal effectively. How does a Ritualist do that? With spirits. They effect almost every Restoration skill a Ritualist has. Take away my spirits like that, and you take away my healing like that.

2) Not use any other Ritualist skill line other than the ones you consider required to just heal (since, as far as I understood, that's why you don't want to use Spirit Boon Strike)

Why would I want to spend Attribute points strengthening the damage line when I want to be healing? It's an effective reduction of my healing powers to do so.

How often have you seen an Elementalist use Obsidian Flesh in order to prevent interruption from Mesmers? I hardly ever see it. Mainly because Elementalists want the most out of their Air or Fire trees for damage, as well as Energy Storage. They wont bother with a skill that is not promoting that regardless of how useful it is.

3) Not use Doom in a context that helps you (you know, you don't have to cast it if it's in your skill bar; if the spirits are at 100% duration, you also don't need to cast it, you may wait until they have only 30 seconds to survive and then cast it, without any loss; and if they're under attack, you may as well cast it considering how they would die in less than 30 seconds without a heal)

I'm not playing the profession to hep myself, but to help my team. Doom won't do that. Me healing will. Doom would be a waste of a skill bar slot when I can put a much more useful healing skill there.

Have I mentioned how weak Doom is when you only have 3 spirits on recharge? It also has a 15 sec recharge. Lacking those 3 spirits will break me, but Doom will do very little to them, almost negligible.

4) Survive against a possible attack by an AoE spell, assuming it cannot be stopped in some other way (long casting time + spirit that interrupts = goodbye most AoEs)

Not survive, have a chance at it. As of right now, they will die no matter what. I've done it. I've cast Fire Storm on spirits. They dropped like flies. It was quite easy and was quite a blow to the other team.

The spirits that interrupt have a much shorter range than Fire Storm. They won't do it.

5) Cast the spirits at the same place (something that is far from being necessary, as you can cast them in different formations to encompass the area you are in - make them in a triangle with a 90° and the longer side facing the direction your oponents will come from, as you ask the rest of your team to wait at the center of the triangle, to give one example)

Cast times are too long to do that when you know the battle is about to start. Spirits like Recuperation aren't out for very long. You want them to have the max effect on your party, so you want them to start their benefit when the fight starts. +3 health regen is useless if they aren't losing health.

Because of that, you cant spend all your time moving from spot to spot in an effort to make the triangle you want. You need those spirits out fast. Only way to do that is to cast them on the same spot.

As I said before, "setting up shop" beforehand will only cause you to waste valueable spirit time.

6) Not use any Monk skill to heal the spirits, despite the fact you are a healer. Orison of Healing, for example

Tried it. Doesn't work on spirits. Same as it is with Ranger spirits. I wouldn't have come here complaining if that simple tactic had worked. You honestly thought I would overlook that?

So yeah, if you want to do all of the above I don't think you're going to be able to do it, and thankfuly for that.

Erasculio

Must I mention Nature's Renewal again? It was an easy "I WIN" button against hexes- and enchantment-heavy builds. As such it was changed, nerfed, to the point of uselessness.

Fire Storm is an easy "I WIN" button against spirit-heavy builds. There should never be an "I WIN" button. There should be "I WIN" TACTICS using more than one button, yes, but never just one button.

I'll say it again, DON'T nerf Fire Storm. I'm ALL FOR Nukers having greater role variety. But give the Ritualist some way of having a chance.

Erasculio

23-01-2006, 02:12

Must I mention Nature's Renewal again? It was an easy "I WIN" button against hexes- and enchantment-heavy builds. As such it was changed, nerfed, to the point of uselessness.

Fire Storm is an easy "I WIN" button against spirit-heavy builds. There should never be an "I WIN" button. There should be "I WIN" TACTICS using more than one button, yes, but never just one button.

The problem is that, IMO, that's a bad comparison.

Nature Renewal was a single skill. What you complain about for Firestorm also works for all the other AoE spells that do damage over time. So, if Arena Net were to nerf something, they would nerf Firestorm, Searing Heat, Chaos Storm, Maelstrom, etc etc...In other words, Arena Net would change an entire class of skills.

And to said that those AoE spells are a "I WIN" button is, again IMO, exagerating it. All of the points you listed above in reply to my own are subjective - exactly as you may cast your spirits before battle and waste a few seconds, protecting most of them from a single AoE spell, you can use a few attribute points in the Channeling line to improve the spirit's vitality, etc...It's not a perfect counter, "kill all spirits in range" as Nature Renewal was with enchantments and hexes. It's a partial counter, just like NR currently is - you can still cast enchantments and hexes through Nature Renewal, losing a bit of eficiency in the process. Likewise, you can still use spirits through AoE builds, losing a bit of eficiency in the process.

Erasculio

Acel

23-01-2006, 09:42

1. Dont lay your spirits on the same spot if there are Elementalists, Trappers(suicidal) around.
2. Always have Wanderlust up when an Elementalist is spotted so that it will ALWAYS knock him/her down the moment she runs into range to try Firestorm/Meteor
3. RT/MEs default are inspiration secondary. Powerdrain works here(optional)
4. Doom them when they come into range to discourage slow casting spells

I dont see any problems.

Wanyan Wulei - 16 Spawning Power 15 Communing, HP armor :azn:

Ps: I only fear chain lightning spikers in tombs and silly pug teammates who hug spirits.

lumimantteli

23-01-2006, 12:03

Hehehe.. another thing is that. If there is a elementalist out there without any ways of protecting himself from interrupts.. then he is as good as dead. Too many rangers to think about. A simple glyph of concentration goes so far against any interupts. But really, we saw many Rt:s summoning their spirits in balls. One can do the summoning way better way. And area of the spirit powers is huge!! Plant wanderlust on center of the beach map and it covers it all!! I can say how frustrating that was ^^. But really, there isn't so much fire storms there on RA without ritualists, is there? Bringing something stuck on his place, gives even some chance on AoE, it was almost gone for some months now. thx anet.

jibikao

23-01-2006, 22:18

Hyoga

23-01-2006, 22:42

Nature Renewal was a single skill. What you complain about for Firestorm also works for all the other AoE spells that do damage over time. So, if Arena Net were to nerf something, they would nerf Firestorm, Searing Heat, Chaos Storm, Maelstrom, etc etc...In other words, Arena Net would change an entire class of skills.

Erasculio

The problem is that you and everyone else that has posted here keeps overlooking something I've been saying since the very first post. If you read the last sentence of the post to which you most recently replied, you'll see this there:

"I'll say it again, DON'T nerf Fire Storm. I'm ALL FOR Nukers having greater role variety. But give the Ritualist some way of having a chance."

It would not change the profession or the skills at all. By simply giving the Ritualist a more effective spirit survival skill, you are only making the Elementalists work harder, regardless of which DoT AoE they use. Like the new Nature's Renewal makes Rangers work harder to stop hexes and enchantments, but they can still do it.

I feel the NR comparison is valid.

Your other paragraph on that post, however, has merit and valid arguments to which I must concede. I shall leave it at that.

SoulsOfEternity

24-01-2006, 02:06

I played a Rt/Mo with 3 spirits over the weekend, boy was it fun. I played CA so maybe that's why I didn't have as much trouble laying down spirits (Weapon of Warding + Guardian) but even against those pesky interupt rangers, I would be a nice distraction which would give the primary healer (the monk) the time needed to heal everyone, and by the time the ranger was done interupting me my team had usually killed 1-2 people so therefore the ranger would have to back off and try to rez or something and up go the spirits :wink:.

The problem with AoE rly isn't a problem, just lay the spirits in a circle or something, and I know you said that you prolly won't have enough time, but just cast weapon of warding on yourself and you may have a chance.

Just as well, if you really wanna get the spirits down, you could lay displacement a bit back, but not to far back, then run in and lay the spirits down in whatever way you want to. With displacement on you can't get hit, so therefore no interupts.

For some reason though, most CA teams I ran into wouldn't interupt me, or for that matter attack my spirits. However as a Ritualist myself, and when I wasn't holding ashes of some sort, I would attack the other Ritualist's spirits :grin:.

I think the way the Ritualist is now is, well, perfect.

krytonix

24-01-2006, 03:32

What I'm trying to say people, is that Fire Storms destroy spirit builds AS fast, if not faster, than the old Nature's Renewal destroyed hex and enchantment builds.

What happened to the old Nature's Renewal? Nerfed so hard into the ground that it was never used again, just about.

I don't want Nukers nerfed. I don't want Fire Storm nerfed. It's situational enough as it is. I want spirit Ritualists to have a chance. No build should be able to effectively cancel out another through one spell, one button.

That is why Nature's Renewal was changed.

I disagree, Nature's Renewal was changed because it effectively canceled out MANY/MOST/ALL builds with one button, not just against one kind of build. There are many team builds that have one or more "off" switches, and that's just how it goes. You deal with it the best you can. Running ritualist spirits against a team with nukers just means the ele's become prime targets for interrupting and spiking. Plus, with multiple ritualists and/or Ritual Lord, the recast time for spirits really isn't that bad.

That being said, I also want to know how best to keep my spirits alive. Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't tested some of this stuff (and it's too late now!).

DON'T WORK:
Direct targeted heals (e.g. mend body and soul, orison of healing, etc.)
Spirit ally effects (e.g. recuperation, union, etc.)

PROBABLY DON'T WORK:
"Ally" group heals (e.g. heal party, divine healing)

WORK:
Signet of Creation, Spirit Boon Strike (Rt specific spirit heals)
Weapon spells (e.g. weapon of warding, resilient weapon)
[side note: how does this work for Spirit Light Weapon, where it's dependent on being "near" a spirit?]

PROBABLY WORK:
Heal Area
Healing Spring (ranger)
Well of Blood (necromancer)

It would be great if people could chime in with any knowledge they have about what works to heal spirits, or clarify/add something in the list above.

WhiteZombie

24-01-2006, 08:26

rts dont even need spirits to be effective. sure, a pure spirit summoner has some pretty nice perks but you can fashion a fully servicable and powerful rt without spirits. the build i used only takes one, and only for self-sacrificing purposes.

Metagenki

01-02-2006, 18:23

Preservation is just ONE ELITE SKILL. Stop acting like one elite = the entire profession.

Also try not stacking all your spirits in the exact same place.

There are also numerous skills to help with recharge times on spirits.

Weapon spells work on spirits. (I think I just answered a question I asked in another thread with this one...)

Even if Pyromancers completely dominated spirits, so what? That's only one build. A mesmer can build to completely dominate not just one build, but nearly 4 entire professions (with one skillset).

Honestly, using firestorm on a single spirit? What a waste of time and energy.

Some ritualists are completely dependant on spirits, but not all. There are other options available. I played many of them, and some were more successful than that stupid preservation spirit which wasted my elite slot and always got killed, rendering me useless.

People think ritualists are dependant on spirits, but in reality I think they're just like every other character, being largely dependant on whatever elite skill they happen to have at the time. Use a different elite and you won't be dependant on spirits. Recuperation is rather weak anyways, to be saying you depend on it...

Many skills do better in the area of spirits, but that doesn't mean you have to base your entire character around these kinds of things like the default Rt/Mo basically did.

My only complaint with ritualists is that you can only have one of each spirit, even if you have two or more ritualists. :sad:

Colretsun Andolin

01-02-2006, 20:39

How often have you seen an Elementalist use Obsidian Flesh in order to prevent interruption from Mesmers? I hardly ever see it. Mainly because Elementalists want the most out of their Air or Fire trees for damage, as well as Energy Storage. They wont bother with a skill that is not promoting that regardless of how useful it is.

Mantra of Resolve.

"I'll say it again, DON'T nerf Fire Storm. I'm ALL FOR Nukers having greater role variety. But give the Ritualist some way of having a chance."

Spread out your spirits. Have your team interupt the caster.

It would not change the profession or the skills at all. By simply giving the Ritualist a more effective spirit survival skill, you are only making the Elementalists work harder, regardless of which DoT AoE they use. Like the new Nature's Renewal makes Rangers work harder to stop hexes and enchantments, but they can still do it.

Spreading out spirits makes Ele's work harder, but they can still do it. Just cast your long lasting spirits pre-battle, then run around and cast your shorter duration spirits mid-battle. You said that spirits like recuperation needed to be cast mid battle, ok, so cast that one mid battle away from all the spirits that you have already cast...I really don't see the issue of spreading spirits out.

CKaz

08-02-2006, 22:06

I don't want Nukers nerfed. I don't want Fire Storm nerfed. It's situational enough as it is. I want spirit Ritualists to have a chance. No build should be able to effectively cancel out another through one spell, one button.

I still disagree, it's all paper rock scissors.
In this thread alone it's been mentioned how much Ritualists and their spirits rock, and a lot of it leveraging how they can build up spirits and take over combat areas. Now this actually suggests a need, particularly for ferreting out a bunch of Ritualist spirit users, to *bring AoE to PvP*. That's practically cosidered taboo under normal situations.

Sure they have a chance. All the AoE takes awhile to cast. Rangers, mesmers, warrs etc interrupt. But if they bothered to bring it let them use it, rather than the spirits be uber resistative. Otherwise why not bring back 100% of the spirit spam, blocking people in, and Ritualists becoming what Rangers were with them. I hope they go down quick, as just a couple can coat an area quickly with spirits healing and dishing damage out constantly.

Guess we'll see. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Rit hater, far from it, I really enjoyed the Ri/Mo and am more intrigued by Ritualists than the Assassin. That said I'm hoping neither class become overpowered, which often is the case when new classes come along. CERTAINLY they need their counters and weaknesses, just like every other class.

CKaz

MaximumSquid

09-02-2006, 00:25

Come Closer Elementalist!

I have something I want to show you!

YES! Thats it!

CLoser. . .. Closer. . . .

http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/5861/gwbug3xn.jpg

Zaxares

09-02-2006, 04:54

Can spirits be knocked down?

If so, then an Echoed Meteor Shower would ruin that setup very quickly.

Goldfish God

09-02-2006, 05:50

Come Closer Elementalist!

I have something I want to show you!

YES! Thats it!

CLoser. . .. Closer. . . .

http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/5861/gwbug3xn.jpg
What an intrigingly named character, it's almost like the image is trying to tell us something :rolleyes:

spirits are not the whole of the ritualist class, they are not even the whole of the ritualist's healing ability (wielder's boon, weapon of warding, that heal ash pot etc) or offensive ability (whailing weapon, spirit rift, pot bomb).

I just want to know...

1. the ash pot that blinds people.... is it just the ritualist throwing cremated dead-guy into people's eyes liek ranger's throw dust :shocked:

2. wouldn't it be fun if we could lob ash pot spells like grenades once they've been summoned. An "airborne was jimbo" or "fire in the hold" skill :laugh: