Gods - Canthan Version (Factions Trailer)

[Barinthus]

It's entirely festible that two different cultures may worship same gods which they portray differently in their art and architecture.

If you visit Luxon and Kurzick settlements in Tyria, you can find a Luxon and a Kurzick basically saying something that verifies that they do worshop gods Tyrians do.

In the preview we saw that pretty much each rez shrine also had a statue of a god.

In the Factions trailer, we see the emperor kow-towing before a mural of several figures before he was slain.

I propose that this mural depicts gods as Canthans see them.

Starting from the top:

Lyssa
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9290/lyssacantha0fh.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lyssacantha0fh.jpg)

Note two female figures standing next to each other. To me this screams Lyssa.

Melandru
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/5130/melandrucantha5ur.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=melandrucantha5ur.jpg)

Note branches and leaves. In many cultures on Earth, deities have been represented by an object rather as a being. No reason why Canthans are any different. Those branches and leaves can be found throughout upper part of the mural. In the lower part of the mural you can see a trunk of a tree.

Dwayna
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1540/melandrucantha22dz.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=melandrucantha22dz.jpg)

A female figure with swirling hair descending toward a warrior figure. This can be interpreted as this female figure is healing or protecting the warrior figure.

Balthazar
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2479/balthazarcantha5nd.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balthazarcantha5nd.jpg)

A warrior with his sword lifted as he is ready to strike down a foe. Do I need to say more?

[Barinthus]

Grenth
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5176/grenthcantha5ql.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=grenthcantha5ql.jpg)

A more clear picture

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6383/grenthcantha24ab.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=grenthcantha24ab.jpg)

A skeleton of a horned being which is very similar to Tyrian version of Grenth with a human (or human-like skull) next to him. This skeleton could be dead or alive.


At the first I thought what I labelled as Dwyana to be Melandru but it bothered me that Canthans would not have the goddess of healing and protection on their mural. Since the emperor was shown kow-towing to that particular mural, obviously this mural had a religious significance to Cathnans. Perhaps it is a regular religious ritual in which the emperor asks for gods' protection or blessing or whatever. So I found it difficult to accept that Canthans would leave out Dwayna.

The thought to me perhaps Melandru simply wasn't on the mural. In one other thread, someone mentioned that Canthans felt that Melandru forsaked them. However this was after the Jade Wind and that mural was made long before the event. The presence of a tree in the background with its branches and leaves filling empty spaces could be seen in the mural.

That is why I came to the conclusion that this tree is Melandru personified.


Suppose I am correct regarding gods I want to explore whether if there is a particular purpose or rationale behind arrangements of gods as depicted on the mural. Why Lyssa on top? Why not Balthazar or Dwayna? Does Lyssa hold some special significance or reverence to Canthans above others? To the Kurzicks, Lyssa is goddess of the arts which they hold in highest regards. At the Kurzick settlement you encounter a child who tells you that he and his peers' goal is to outachieve their ancestors in terms of art.

Melandru is shown in the background yet encompasses other gods. Perhaps this is an acknowledge or recongization that without 'mother nature' which is Melandru's domain, Canthans would not exist? That all life comes from or is able to continue to exist due to Melandru. Dwayna helps to sustain life but without Melandru's care there would be no life to be sustained. The Kurzicks also revere the environment based on NPC comments from the preview.

As the people who love the artistic expression, they dislike warring but recongize it as an inevitable part of life. Therefore they make the war an art form of sorts. They have a House dedicated to war, tactics, strageties, and art of fighting. But if they had a choice they prefer not to war. That is why Dwayna is shown above Balthazar.

Grenth is on the bottom yet merits a place on the mural. Death is end of life yet an important part of life. Without death, life cannot exist. They recongize the importance of the place Grenth holds in the panethon and show respect toward the lord of decay and death.

I strongly suspect that the mural was made by Kurzick artisan(s) since the positioning of gods strongly match what Kurzick NPCs had to say about their beliefs and so on.

Thoughts or comments?

[Ranger Nietzsche]

one trend ive been noticing is equating kurzicks and luxons to canthans.

the term "canthans" appear to me to be referring sometimes to only the people living on the northern parts, in the large city and the islands to the west.

it seems to have a double meaning then...sometimes referring to peopel on the whole continent, other times to just those in the north, who do not take part in the luxon, kurzick war

[hendryx]

Just a quick note of something here.

While playing the FPE, one of the things I actally ran into was a Grenth shine where I was in fact about to summon Grenth and get some Godly perks such as reducing my DPS, etc. So I thing you're right about them havign the same Gods.

Something silly yet simple which might seem to support this as well is simply the "Hero" screen. Seen PvP faction always currently gets marked as "Balthazar" faction then I think at the vert least they'll be keeping Balthazar in as a Canthan God, simple so that someone playing Factions only can see the relevence of PvP faction being marked as such.

[Barinthus]

Finally people replied :)

There is no doubt that Canthans, Luxons, and Kurzicks do worshop same gods as Tyrians do. I was just wondering if my fellow 'scholars' agree with my interpretions of the mural above.

[Adam Zephyr]

if u are correct in saying theses pictures dipict the gods we know of then watch the end of the clip when it shows the ruins of the temple, it shows the whole of the mural it shows another figure it the top right you dont get to see a close up of it and iv failed in trying to collect its image, any ideas

[Barinthus]

Will take a look at it once I'm back home - am visting my folks right now

[zeeZer]

There you go:
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/702/vlcsnap8056364gg.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap8056364gg.jpg)
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/2756/vlcsnap805636cl2lf.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap805636cl2lf.jpg)

The top figure seems to be always hidden in other frames

[ShadowSword]

Now that's interesting. Another figure? Coudl be the Emperor himself I guess...

Oh and it had to be made by Kurzicks. They're the only ones that interested in culture that much to make the carving and as has been stated it fits in with their views.

[Barinthus]

I couldn't click on the bottom image to enlarge it. Could you look into the link?

[Quintus Antonius]

I'll point out once again, that there are Old Gods in the pantheon other than the ones we are widely familiar with.

There is even a possibility that this is not a mural of the gods at all, even though, I agree, to an extent, with the theory that it is. It may represent the different facets of an individual, or of the Canthan Empire. Also, didn't Gaile mention that there would be new gods in Cantha? Who knows, but I bet that the answers will turn up in the course of the game.

[Eladain Windshear]

I seem to remember one of the Luxon peasants in the North Krytan Province saying something about their Gods. It was along the lines of "The Kurzicks say we don't worship the true gods, but we worship the same ones as theirs..." or something like that Maybe this is another indicator that they do worship Tyrian Gods, or pehaps another aspect of them?

EDIT:
It seems that ANet has updated their page on the Old Gods: http://eu.guildwars.com/theworld/article/the_old_gods/

The information on here pretty much confirms that the mural is that of the Tyrian Gods (as if there was doubt to begin with :P) Anyway, whats interesting is the Canthan depiction of Melandru. Rather than Melandru being a living tree, s/he is depicted as being ensconced in Echovald Quartz. Looking at the upperightmost figure, I still can't quite make out anything linking him to Melandru (IE. not really ensconced in quartz :P) but perhaps one of you with sharper eyes could see the connection? It's most probably him, but it would be nice if we could just visually confirm it.

On a side note, I'm curious as to whether or not the Statues in factions will be altered to reflect these representations. I know that they were the standard Tyrian ones during the FPE, but hopefully we'll see a diference when Factions is released.

[Endrick]

I had time on my hands today, so we have now a full detailed view of this wonderful mural for a better analysis :

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/3408/mural6ya.th.jpg (http://img439.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mural6ya.jpg)

[Endrick]

I personally don't believe these are the Gods. I would rather see this as a representation of the Emperor, or a lengendary hero (the warrior) fighting the evil, supported by the Gods. If it is the case, I think the thing vanquished on the picture is the same evil that comes back today.

[Quintus Antonius]

I personally don't believe these are the Gods. I would rather see this as a representation of the Emperor, or a lengendary hero (the warrior) fighting the evil, supported by the Gods. If it is the case, I think the thing vanquished on the picture is the same evil that comes back today.

I don't think it is the Old Gods either. Rather, I agree with what you just said. It is a hero vanquishing a great evil. I don't even think those people in the background are "gods", rather, I'd argue they are ancestors, maybe even representations of previous emperors. I was looking at the mural today, and the more I look at it, the less I feel convinced they are the gods, although, it is still possible.

[Erasculio]

The little manual that comes with the Pre Order DVD case goes in detail about that scene - it describes what we see in the Cinematic Opening. It claims that, when celebrating the Harvest Festival, the Emperor was making a suplic to the gods - so yep, maybe those were the old gods after all. Or maybe that's just a tale linked to the Harvest Festival itself.

Erasculio

[Eladain Windshear]

I don't think it is the Old Gods either. Rather, I agree with what you just said. It is a hero vanquishing a great evil. I don't even think those people in the background are "gods", rather, I'd argue they are ancestors, maybe even representations of previous emperors. I was looking at the mural today, and the more I look at it, the less I feel convinced they are the gods, although, it is still possible.

Well, going by the OP's pictures, they seem to correspond to the the information given on the GW site:


Balthazar is frequently shown holding a greatsword, its tip lodged in the ground, with a pair of battle hounds sitting at attention at his feet. In Cantha, the sword is usually one of the single-edged imperial style and the battle hounds are usually replaced with winged drakes.
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2479/balthazarcantha5nd.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balthazarcantha5nd.jpg)

Statues of Grenth depict the god with the body of a man and the narrow, skeletal head of a beast; Canthan artists tend to add a draconic look to the skull.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6383/grenthcantha24ab.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=grenthcantha24ab.jpg)

Seems pretty close to me. Nothing conclusive though, but there is a strong resemblance between the mural and the descriptions that are given to us. Even more convincing is the fact that the official website mentions that Canthans do indeed worship the same gods and have different interpretations of them. Of course that's not to say that there aren't other gods that they worship...

[ShadowSword]

Well I'm working off a quote in one of the other threads which says 'a supplication from a god among men to the gods of men'. Thanks to whoever posted that.

Now that was probably slightly inaccurate fro mme but it does show that the Canthans think of their Emperor as a god or at least a demi god. If there was a first Emperor who founded Cantha i think they'd have equated him with a God. I think this does show the gods, the references are too clear and except for the extra figure it all fits. My best guess is that figure is the founding Emperor.

[Garreth MacLeod]

...there are Old Gods in the pantheon other than the ones we are widely familiar with.There are? Is there somewhere I can read about them? I didn't know about this.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

its in the quest info from the Underworld and Fissure of Woe. You find out that there was an old god of the underworld called Duhmm(sp) and an evil half-brother of Balthazar called menzies

[Quintus Antonius]

its in the quest info from the Underworld and Fissure of Woe. You find out that there was an old god of the underworld called Duhmm(sp) and an evil half-brother of Balthazar called menzies

Thank you, Ranger Nietzsche, for posting that information.

I use the examples of the other Old Gods (or old Old Gods, if you wan't to get techinical) to show that if there are other gods in the pantheon that we don't widely hear about, then it isn't so unlikely that there are other gods in the same pantheon just not accepted in Tyria, or even heard of. If this will prove to be the case, I'm not sure, but it would fit with the established game lore if it did.

[Garreth MacLeod]

its in the quest info from the Underworld and Fissure of Woe. You find out that there was an old god of the underworld called Duhmm(sp) and an evil half-brother of Balthazar called menziesThank you. I've not had the opportunity to go to the Underworld or Fissure of Woe very often and didn't know about this. Is there somewhere that the information is given where I could read it? (screenshots or whatever)

[Ranger Nietzsche]

you have to do teh quests to get the information, the reaper quests in UW and the shadow army quests in FoW, i dotn have screenies but guildwiki has extensive lists of all text found in those two areas if you're interested

[The Stiehl]

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/3408/mural6ya.th.jpg (http://img439.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mural6ya.jpg)

I've taken a look at this picture, and I think I know who's who. The very top person, slightly blurred out, is Dwayna. If you look at their hand, you'll see they're holding wind, or smoke. The next one is no doubt Lyssa, as it's 2 people (even if it is hard to make out if they're male or female). The next person, rather than being a tree and having the body be Dwayna, is all Melandru. If you look, she is clothed in leaves. The next one is obviously Balthazar, followed by Grenth. I don't know about relations bewteen them or the other gods, but I hope this clears some things up.

[hexal]

With the whole thing of Dhum and Menzies, the quests are kinda hypocrytical. Dhum was the first god of death, then Grenth came along and kicked him out. But wiht Menzies, Balthazar was alredy the god of war, now Menzies wants to be. In one we are helping the usurper, and the otehr we are fighting the attempting usurper.

[Barinthus]

The Stiehl - you could be right. However I've felt that the top figure is Melandru and the one above Balthazar is Dwayna. Melandru could be 'emerging' out of the tree which serves as a background for the most of the mural while it'd make sense that Dwayna is healing the warrior god.

My impression is that Canthans would revere Melandru above others due to their love of the environment but Dwayna could be held in higher esteem. We won't know until we explore Factions in more depth, I suppose.

[dekboi]

I agree with barinthus in that the top most figure is meladru rather than dwayna. Dwayna to me was always a bestowing goddes and the image of the woman with the flowing hair and hands out looks more like dwayna. The woman with the smoke or wind in her hand would more logically be meladru controling the elements. I'd also like to point out that the braches and trees all flow down along the sides from the top of the mural, supporting the idea that the top figure is melandru

Edit: got linked from another thread, failed to notice the dates.... apolagies.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

no thread is dead here

[aptaleonII]

With the whole thing of Dhum and Menzies, the quests are kinda hypocrytical. Dhum was the first god of death, then Grenth came along and kicked him out. But wiht Menzies, Balthazar was alredy the god of war, now Menzies wants to be. In one we are helping the usurper, and the otehr we are fighting the attempting usurper.

Dhuum was indeed there before Grenth (though perhaps not the FIRST god of death; the Apostate tells us there were older gods than our current pantheon) but he was an unjust , cruel lord of death. In the Nightfall campain he begins torturing souls once again when he gets half a chance. Menzies is the Lord of Destruction, responsible for enslaving heroes to toil in the burning forest, and assaulting Balthazar's eternal army. It's not as simple as helping the usurper in one case and the throne-holder in another; in each case we are helping the more just, good deity.

(Although, when you read the story of Kaolai, it would seem that Balthazar isn't so just or good 0-o either way, he's better than Menzies, who's evil to the core)

[Barinthus]

dekboi - thread necromancers are more than welcome here in the Lore! In fact we prefer it that way - it's annoying to see 423523452 threads on same subject.

[Kailden Jera]

Some people have such keen eyes. I would never notice that detail on my own.

Very interesting.

[dekboi]

dekboi - thread necromancers are more than welcome here in the Lore! In fact we prefer it that way - it's annoying to see 423523452 threads on same subject.

heh, thx barinthus :P
I'll see what i can animate next lol