Motivation and possible forces behind Shiro Tagachi? - possible Spoiler [Archive]

Longasc

07-05-2006, 18:43

This tag attached by Quintus Antonius-Lore Forum Moderator:
The proceeding and subsequent posts may contain Guild Wars: Factions' ***SPOILERS***. Be advised, and read at your own risk.

Can someone explain me the Factions storyline?

According to the story, a fortuneteller told Shiro that he Emperor would murder him. Certain suspicious circumstances made Shiro believe this, and he murdered the Empire.

But does this make Shiro a villain per se? Who gave him the powers to curse the whole Jade Sea / Echovald Forest?

Who made him an Envoy with supernatural powers? Why did he suddenly come back?

He wants to murder someone of royal blood to live again, well...
Before I say more, can someone shed some light on Shiros Motivation and if it really was just a fortuneteller that started all this???

Xeronage

07-05-2006, 18:59

I bet the Oni were the cause of all of this ^^ The Oni gave Shiro his powers when he was a child, but made him forget that, The Oni wanted him to take over the world! To start Oni City! Full of Oni men and women! Oni children! who own PC's! And games called Guild Wars! YES THAT's IT! YES!!!

Quintus Antonius

07-05-2006, 19:52

In the future, please post a spoiler warning on topics such as this. There are people in the community who would rather not have the storyline or possible backgrounds to the storyline spoiled for them. I will add the tag this time, but please try to help me out by adding the warnings yourself when you intially make the post. Thank you.

Xeronage, there was no reason to post that kind of response. The OP asked a very legitimate question, which deserves the same respect as if you had posted it. Please try to post responses that are relevent to the topic.

Ranger Nietzsche

08-05-2006, 05:16

i was sort of disappointed by the storyline

on the one hand...i like that his motivation is just the whole fortune teller and his own suspicious and superstitious nature rather than some stupid thing like "a demon possessed him"

yet...there is NO EXPLANATION at ALL as to why he can perform the death wail. All we get is maybe just that he was so angry it did it. But that is a TERRIBLE explanation.

As for the envoy, perhaps just because he was powerful.

zweistein

08-05-2006, 12:53

It's very blurry, i agree:

* Who is the fortune teller? What was her concern?
* Did Emperor really want to kill Shiro? (hint: Vizunah was nearby, maybe she was hired to kill him... )
* Why did Emperor want to do it? (Shiron being too powerfull, but Emperor had trusty ally in him untill fortune teller messed with him)

* All those envoy business, powers business (maybe Fortune teller 'gave' him some of those)...

Btw, Fortune Teller is strikingly similar to necromancer trainer in monastery ...

Longasc

08-05-2006, 13:14

There might be some cultural reference in "Envoy".

I do not know if there are celestial envoys in Chinese culture. I found no good references to "envoy / mythology" using google.

But there is a highly skilled fighter/assassin by the name of Takeshi Kovacs in Richard Morgan's novels named after him.

For example the tagline of "Woken Furies":
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345479718/

In Morgan's powerful third cyberpunk noir SF novel to feature Takeshi Kovacs, whose consciousness is transferred from one ultra–combat-ready body to another in the service of various unscrupulous powers, the interstellar mercenary returns home to Harlan's World, thoroughly pissed and dangerous.

T.K. is an Envoy, an euphemism a member of some sort of Marine Corps / Delta Force with often rather shady objectives.

Another similar trait is that Kovacs always doubts people and expects the worst, resulting sometimes in harsh and uncompromising measures he regrets later on. He is also some sort of Fighter/Assassin like Shiro.

I can not really understand the motivations of Shiro, but we might question the whole Canthan Society. The Emperor is a good man. Yes, of course. Kisu made a fairly solid impression on the day of the Tengu.

But take a look at all the ministries, reminiscent of 1984. Also remember the guy at the Oracle speaking with contempt of them. Then there are very strong criminal organizations, a tradition of murder/assassination and betrayal.

Add in superstition, even the mighty Shiro was not immune to the words of an old hag.

We can also come to another conclusion who betrayed whom:

Shiro's Death Wail should have been adressed to the fortuneteller. She told him "either him or you", and he decided to kill the Emperor. In the end, he got murdered too. I agree with zweistein, I suspect the Emperor really wanted Shiro dead, Vizu was not there by coincidence or because Shiro was looking so murderous... come on.

That his curse turned the forest to stone and the sea to jade, well... sounds like a chinese fairy tale became true.

Maybe Shiro was not wrong after all. The Emperor wanted him dead. That he does not have mercy for his successor and grandgrand whatsoever son is quite logical.

He also seems to have turned into a real villain, as he murders this couple and turns them into Afflicted laughing like the typical stereotype of a bad guy.

But maybe this was the script and voice acting of the game, making a somewhat deeper storyline rather shallow. The presentation of a quite good storyline again failed, the same as in Prophecies. The story would be okay, but it has been told terribly.

False Visage

08-05-2006, 14:11

It was mentioned in another thread in this forum, that Vizu came across Shiro drinking the Soul of the Emperor, or something close to that. If this was indeed the case, he probably used the energy of the Emperor's Soul to produce the Death Wail

Thread which contained the information of Vizu: http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=397139

Whether or not the Emperor hired Vizu to assasinate Shiro, or whether she really did have a premonition doesn't change the fact Shiro did murder the Emperor. So Vizu's actions in the end were not ungrouded, if only by coincidence.

Zero RoGuE

08-05-2006, 21:41

Ive been reading The Guide and it explains alot of what was happening

NOTE! for anyone who may be confused, plese dont go on what you see in the GWF cinnima. like in the first one its not supposed to be story exact. Its supposed to look really cool.

For one the Harvest Festival Cerimony is where the Emporer prays for the blessings of the five gods to protect cantha. That alone theres alot of magic in that place,enough for the deathwail. Shiro killed the Emporer right after the second blessing(the one to dwayna) as it looks to me Shiro killed the emporer and the "blessing" went to him instead. Shiro took the power of the emporer to give him the power of the deathwail.

Shiro was techinaly a assassin but his knowlege was far beyond that of a mere assassin. He took a hobby of reading ancient text of both good and dark power(I wonder if he was cursed by something?). These texts game him powers and abilities mortals could only dream of.

Next about the assassin Vizu, she was not hired by the emporer. She was being chased by Am Fah assassins at the time she headed to the Harvest temple to elude them. She notticed Shiro fighting with the gaurd about bringing his weapons into the temple and she stayed to enshure shiro wassnt up to something. Once the alarm was raised she knew something was wrong. A few shadowsteps later she saw Shiro absourbing hte soul of the emporer through his swords(where did he get those swords?). Knowing he had to be stoped she shadowedsteped and sliced shiro right in the back of the his sholders. This caused him to drop his swords. Unfortunetly shiro was able to recover and knocked vizu into the altar. At this time the Gaurds finaly make it to the top of the temple. Seeing vizu knocked down as well as Shiro's weapons. They picked up shiro's swords and brought the trator to justice. Then came the Deathwail. Now what few know is Vizu didnt die in the harvest temple. Instead she realized what was happening and begian to try to escalpe as fast as she could. For almost half a minute she stayed one shadowstep ahead of the screaming shockwave as it petrified the landscape. Unfortunetly Her strength gave out just as she reached the edge of the jade sea. Leaveing her as a jade statue on the beach.

With a large percent of Cantha uninhabitable due to the deathwail the refugies of the jade sea and the forest piled into the capital. Many where relocated to Shing Jea island(this started a battle with the Tengu). However Most Stayed in Kainsung city.

halfthought

08-05-2006, 23:34

when I heard shiro talking and laughing I was thing !!!!!!!!!!000000000000omf4g0rz0000000000000!!!!!!! !!!!! it voldamort

seriouly, I thought proph storyline was quite good, but was told HORRIBLY by the magumma jungle, there were more hole in the storline then well... (I failed to thing of analogie)

LordShadowblight

09-05-2006, 00:27

As for a end game boss Shiro could not even come close to the power of the lich, heck I think Verata is a bigger villain. Just think what would have happend if he made it into the castle

we know that Glint may have been the power behind the flame seaker prophicy and may have set the events in motion. Could she behind the Canthan events?

Longasc

21-05-2006, 11:22

A mod just removed the posting of someone criticizing the storyline and suggesting ANet to fire their storywriters in the community forum.

Regardless if this was a flame or not, I want to pick up the valid criticism regarding the storyline:

I think the story writer did a fine job, but again they (whoever is responsible for integrating it into the game) failed to translate this into gameplay and the cutscenes.

The story has a lot of nice touches: Was Vizu only there by "accident" - or was the saintly Vizu hired to kill Shiro? After all, we have only her report of the events in question. We already discussed this here.

Then there is the possibility of someone manipulating Shiro. Kanaxai could be possible, but he was bound to the Deep after Shiro's death wail, so this option is no longer valid.

Too many lose ends, no real connections. We can make a lot of the story or nothing, this is entirely up to us. Did someone find some more traces of GW lore regarding Shiro?

Why could Shiro suddenly "suck out" the soul energy of the Emperor, why did he become an Envoy?

If there was more meaning behind the story, they managed to destroy, dilute and detach it completely from ingame lore and sequences.

Somehow ANet manages to make Heroes and Villains like Rurik, the Lich or Shiro look like incomprehensible losers.

Shadow Rain

21-05-2006, 16:26

I hope there could be a sub-expansion to Factions to make up for some "holes" in the plot :)

dfscott

21-05-2006, 17:01

I hope there could be a sub-expansion to Factions to make up for some "holes" in the plot :)

One thing I noticed about Prophesies was that a lot of key story elements were only revealed in the quests. If you missed certain quests (which you didn't need to take to advance through the game), the story didn't make as much sense.

Considering that there are a lot of quests in Factions and I doubt everyone has done them all yet (although I wouldn't put it past some people!), there may be some hidden information that we don't have yet.

Quintus Antonius

21-05-2006, 17:54

While I was on GW one time, a man claiming to be Matthew Medina, one of the main artists for both Prophecies and Factions, messaged me telling me that the lore community was doing a fine job of uncovering some of the little things the artists included in the game, but never expected anyone to actually care enough about to dig deeper into. Naturally, I assumed this person to be a scammer or griefer, because I doubted that the real Matthew Medina would have messaged me; I'm still unsure to this day whether or not it was the real person or not. That said, the person in question told me that many times, the artists and the story writers never see eye-to-eye and in some cases never even speak, and because of this, lots of holes appear in the story. He also told me that artists sometimes don't care enough about consistancy as the writers, and vise versa. If this is the case, many of the criticisms Longasc just pointed out could be attributed to an internal communications conflict between ANet employees. Certainly there is much more consistancy, or at least an attempt at such, in Factions then there was in Prophecies.

Take what I just said with a grain of salt, as I don't put much faith in the person who spoke to me. Even though his username was consistant with who he claimed to be, I have learned not to put my trust in strangers and wouldn't put much credit into the man's claims without more proof of his identity. Just thought I'd share with you that little experience I had.

If I'm wrong, and he really was who he claimed to be, then I profusely apologize to him for my doubt, but also ask for understanding. You know how it is.

Serendipity

21-05-2006, 22:04

Trojan

22-05-2006, 00:11

Actually, that raises a point...

Could the mysterious fortune teller be Glint in disguise?

Quintus Antonius

22-05-2006, 01:35

Actually, that raises a point...

Could the mysterious fortune teller be Glint in disguise?

To be honest, I thought the same thing when I first saw her.

Can't find any evidence to back that one up yet though.

dfscott

22-05-2006, 01:52

We don't know who Shiro was originally. A warrior, a general ? Probably someone with lots of influence.

I got the impression that he was just a run-of-the-mill low-level enforcement official.

Ranger Nietzsche

22-05-2006, 02:19

Disappointing story line. Mostly due to its shortness. The Storyline of Phrophecies spanned 25 missions, Factions has 14 (for those of you wondering the harvest temple missions arent included in the protector title). In prophecies first you fight charr, and need to escape etc. But there was stuff to do LONG before you ever knew jack **** about the Door of Komalie. Here the entire time we fight shiro.

Also, does anyone know what happened at the end of the Sun JIang mission? All i know is I killed some constructs, watched teh cutscene. And I must have missed the part where the spear and urn get destroyed and shiro escapes

Tinnic

22-05-2006, 04:42

A mod just removed the posting of someone criticizing the storyline and suggesting ANet to fire their storywriters in the community forum.

It wasn't remove, just merged into the pile that is "groan the story! the story"

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?p=4105241#post4105241

Somehow ANet manages to make Heroes and Villains like Rurik, the Lich or Shiro look like incomprehensible losers.

That's what I have been trying to say! Shiro in the beginning was shaping up to be a really interesting villain but the game makers just couldn't carry it through to the end. It's was like a book or a story that started of well but about half way through the writer or film maker seems to have gotten bored and just rushed it to it's conclusion.

Quintus Antonius

22-05-2006, 20:47

Guys, while I agree with some of what you are saying, disagree with other parts, and have my own unique opinions or inputs, I have to ask you to stop this line of conversation.

There's nothing wrong with talking about the quality of the storyline, in fact, it's very relevent, but the Lore Forum is not the place for it. There are many discussions like this in the Community Discussion Forum.

Please return to the original OP topic of the thread, or I'll have to close this. Thanks.

Arkhan The Black

23-05-2006, 02:37

Well there might be the possibility that under the harvest temple a Bloodstone is located. When Shiro slew the Ascended Emperor the Bloodstone amplified Shiro's death wail.

Quintus Antonius

23-05-2006, 03:28

I've always thought that as well.

It is a very plausible explanation as to why Shiro was able to literally suck the Emperor's soul out, instead of his soul being dispersed upon his death. We've seen the power of the Bloodstones in Tyria, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out there were Bloodstones in Cantha.

The one problem I have with this theory is that when Hell's Precipice erupted, I don't think it'd have enough force to fling a Bloodstone the whole way to midcenteral Cantha. If it had that much force, most of Tyria would probably have been destroyed and the planet of Tyria would have probably had radical climate shifts; we never hear of anything like that.

Arkhan The Black

23-05-2006, 03:48

Well maybe the sea (aka Jade Sea) absorbed the plunge? It is also plausible that fragments of a Bloostone could be located in Cantha.

Quintus Antonius

23-05-2006, 03:53

Trojan

23-05-2006, 04:48

The plunge isn't the problem, the problem is the force of Hell's Precipice erupting. It would have blown off a huge amount of dust and debris which would have choked the ecosystem of the planet. The Bloodstones themselves aren't the issue.

If that is the case, all of the blood stones reside in Tyria (the continent) or any unknown or unrevealed continents or landmasses close to Tyria, and not in any 'far off' continents or islands such as Cantha...

(Kind of makes you wonder what Chapter III has in store, don't you think? :wink:)

Anyway, if Glint herself pulled the strings to set off the betrayal, then to what end?

False Visage

23-05-2006, 14:34

The stone could have been *moved* at some stage by a Luxon crew, as they did used to be seafarers. Just because the stones landed at a point, doesn't mean they were fixed to that point.

Trojan

23-05-2006, 17:49

The stone could have been *moved* at some stage by a Luxon crew, as they did used to be seafarers. Just because the stones landed at a point, doesn't mean they were fixed to that point.

How could they of moved a stone if it never landed in Cantha in the first place? :confused1:

Unless you mean they dragged a stone from Tyria to Cantha, but have you seen the size of them? That would take one large ship or even a small fleet, even if it was to try and 'tow' the solid rock stone.

Also, how do we even know the Canthan's know of the Blood Stones and how to recognise one like Tyrian's do???

Mularc Templare

24-05-2006, 07:55

Yesterday I headed out to the Harvest Temple and explored around in an attempt to see whether there was any way you could get into the Caverns which the dragon lives in or not, and to see whether there was any bloodstone. I found nothing except roughly 100 Shiroken :P

I don't think that the bloodstones could have reached Cantha, and would agree with Quintus on that. There was already powerful magic in that Temple, mainly because it was always descibed as "floating" in the Lore. It could be that it was just sitting on the surface of the sea however.

As with mcuh of the Guild Wars world, there is evidence to say that we are unable to explore the full Harvest Temple, because much of it is below the waves of the Jade Sea. Thus, whether there was a force there, we may never know.

Mularc

Fossa

24-05-2006, 12:46

Just finished Factions, and I really can't connect the dots.

We don't know who Shiro was originally. A warrior, a general ? Probably someone with lots of influence.

But does the Emperor really wanted to kill him ? As a kind of sacrifice during the ceremony ?The guide books gives a few answers about Shiro.

*He was of royal blood (many generations removed)
*He was a master assasin by trade.
*He was corrupted by dark powers, forces he sought out against the laws of his empire and of his gods. He learned forbidden sorcery and rituals way beyond ordinary assasin lore. The darkest powers comes most easily to him.
*His work as bodyguard is efficient, yet cruel.

As to why he wanted to kill the Emperor it's all speculations, maybe it was because of fear for his own life, maybe to take the throne for himself, perhaps for some more sinister cause.

A few questions/speculations from me:

*His facial scars looks ritual, not something from battle. Maybe from his corruption?

*If you look at the in game movies it's a bit strange. Is Shiro the assasin the emperors bodyguard when he first meets the seer? I'd say no, since the seer predicts his fortune will turn, he then kicks a barrel and a few gold coins drops out of it. He meets the seer again later, when he's been made a bodyguard, which makes the seers words sound more plausible to him. He's then told the emperor plots against him.

* He knows he's of royal blood but I don't think that's the main reason he kills the Emperor, it's for fear of his life. He does however draw power from the emperors dying body which could indicate that fear of his life isn't the only reason for killing.

* The Jade Wind is interesting. Is it a due to the dark arts of Shiro, the power he's drawn from the emperor or even the fact that the deed was commited on one of Cantha's holiest places on the holiest of days? Maybe a combination.

*His sign. There is no explanation for it anywhere, possibly it's used as a guild emblem????

False Visage

24-05-2006, 14:19

How could they of moved a stone if it never landed in Cantha in the first place? :confused1:

Unless you mean they dragged a stone from Tyria to Cantha, but have you seen the size of them? That would take one large ship or even a small fleet, even if it was to try and 'tow' the solid rock stone.

Also, how do we even know the Canthan's know of the Blood Stones and how to recognise one like Tyrian's do???

1. Yes, I meant transported from Tyria.

2. If they can move 5 Fire Golems from the Fire Islands chain, I think they can move a simple stone; if you need to know how, we can explain away with the magic loop-hole of "Magic". We already have a flying castle with it looking like more are on the way, enchanting a giant stone to weigh nothing, or less doesn't have to be difficult.

3. Well, pressumably they'd either find out from Tyrians, or work it out themselves. How else did the first people to find the stones discover their properties? Glint, Kuunavang or any other powerful entity with an interest in the affairs of the world could also have told them.

It's was just an explanation of how a stone could get from Tyria to Cantha without having been blown there. It's not a theory, and besides there's no proof there *is* a Bloodstone under the Harvest Temple, just some interesting ideas and conjecture.

Fossa:

In the Zen Daijun mission Togo mentions that the sign is the Guild Emblem of Shiro Tagachi. Interestingly this prooves that Guilds were around, and must have had some measure of influence, before the Guild Wars.

I still find it interesting that the Jade Wind was not blocked by Physical Matter. It clearly has some interesting and unique properties.

Fossa

24-05-2006, 15:04

When reading the official guide it does mention that sometimes the guild emblem is sometimes seen painted on a wall and that havoc always follows. This might indicate that the guild is still alive and kicking.

False Visage

25-05-2006, 04:39

They must be in hiding though if that's the case, as I'd imagine there would be a very, very large backlash against them after what Shiro did.

Raven Flameheart

25-05-2006, 10:06

2. If they can move 5 Fire Golems from the Fire Islands chain, I think they can move a simple stone; if you need to know how, we can explain away with the magic loop-hole of "Magic". We already have a flying castle with it looking like more are on the way, enchanting a giant stone to weigh nothing, or less doesn't have to be difficult.

Given the boats that Canthan's have, that would be extremely unlikely. A stone of that size would tear a hole right through, and sink. Not to mention that there is no evidence of a bloodstone, and making drawn out unlikely explainations is unwise.

What if Shiro is not nearly as bad as he is portrayed? From what I can tell of Shiro, he was a good person until the he got word that the Emperor was planning to kill him, then lost control into madness, as his desire to survive conflicted with his desire to protect the Emperor. Finally deciding to fight for his own life by striking first from behind, before the Emperor got his full powers from the Harvest Festival.

However, after killing the Emperor, Shiro "steals" the power of the Harvest Ceremony, which would seem to be inconsistant with the self-defence motive. But remember this is the divine power of the Gods, brought down to bless all of Cantha. It's not just going to vanish into thin air. What if, rather than steal the power, it was directly transfered to Shiro after the Emperor died. After Shiro died, rather than jump again, it became the Jade Wind. The reason for the difference is not clear, but I believe that rather than it being Shiro's intention, it was instead a product of his disturbed mindset, and his feelings of being betrayed and angry, whereas the Emperor is likely to have been feeling suprise at best at the time of his death.

After his death, he was made an Envoy. The process of becoming such isn't clear, and is discussed in a separate thread. As far as I can tell, all events of Factions revolves around Shiro trying to become mortal again. The affliction to gain souls, which are placed inside constructs. The constructs used as part of an army to storm the palace, so that he can kill a member of the royal family and become mortal. But why would he want to become mortal if he is truly as evil as portrayed. Being mortal lessens his power (in Vizunah, he wipes the party with a single wave of his hand, whereas in Imperial Sanctum, he seems to rely almost completely (Banish aside) on sword attacks. The nature of banish isn't clear, but I feel he would have something much more powerful if still an Envoy.

As for hating Canthan's enough to do this, consider the fact that he was betrayed, and yet he was reviled for generations, and called "the betrayer". That can't sit well for anyone, especially someone with an already damaged mind.

Chloe

25-05-2006, 16:39

I was expecting either the emperor to be up to no good (and validating shiro's betrayal) or shiro having some misconception that validated his idea that the emperor would kill him. that fortune teller was definately up to no good though!

one thing i thought was food for thought was the way shiro's shoulders sparkled after he died again in the last mission. did you notice he didn't turn translucent after he was jade-inated? he looked some what alive (not a ghost like he was before). why was he sparkling? maybe shiro transcended or violeted some cosmic rule in returning to life and he'll show up again as supremeo mega powered villian in another chapter. why were the envoys being cryptic about what was going on? Maybe the envoys are up to no good.

I bet we'll see more on shiro, the envoys, and that whole story. I realy want to think that shiro wasn't just a flat 'evil in a can' villian that he appears to be. At first he realy seems genuinely astounded that the emperor would pay him any mind and then later that he'd be targeted for death at the emperor's hand. In the early flashback movies shiro realy came off like a 'normal guy' sort of person who just caught a creepy fortune from a creepy fortune teller, then his life got interesting after that. I don't think he started with wacky plans, I think his life changed after he met the fortune teller.

The fortune teller is evil I say!

Arkhan The Black

25-05-2006, 21:09

Well it is possible that Shiro was a pawn in some greater evils plan (The Mursaats?). They wished for Shiro to cripple Cantha and make it vurneable but since he was killed their plan failed.

If Cantha would be without an ascended Emperor then there would be no one to stop lets say the Mursaat for example.

Quintus Antonius

25-05-2006, 21:35

However, after killing the Emperor, Shiro "steals" the power of the Harvest Ceremony, which would seem to be inconsistant with the self-defence motive. But remember this is the divine power of the Gods, brought down to bless all of Cantha. It's not just going to vanish into thin air. What if, rather than steal the power, it was directly transfered to Shiro after the Emperor died. After Shiro died, rather than jump again, it became the Jade Wind. The reason for the difference is not clear, but I believe that rather than it being Shiro's intention, it was instead a product of his disturbed mindset, and his feelings of being betrayed and angry, whereas the Emperor is likely to have been feeling suprise at best at the time of his death.

I agree as much as I can with speculation on what you just said. The Jade Wind was most certainly a derivative of the blessing the Old Gods handed down to the Emperor at the Harvest Temple, but once they give it to him, it is out of their hands, and it is concievable that it could be corrupted if wielded with malace, such as that which inhabited Shiro.

One other thing we have to consider when discussing Shiro, is the way his eyes suddenly glow red before he sets off to do his deed. This indeed does indicate some greater force at work than just Shiro himself. Who that is? I can only speculate.

Well it is possible that Shiro was a pawn in some greater evils plan (The Mursaats?). They wished for Shiro to cripple Cantha and make it vurneable but since he was killed their plan failed.

If Cantha would be without an ascended Emperor then there would be no one to stop lets say the Mursaat for example.

I have trouble agreeing with that. The Mursaat are not the absolute evil most people think they are. In fact, if not for them, the Titans would have escaped sooner. The Mursaat are just the victums of a self-fulfilling prophecy. In other words, in order to do their job, they had to keep the Door shut, but it was said that the Chosen would kill them, therefore allowing the Titans to escape, since the Mursaat would be gone. In their efforts to keep the Door shut and the Chosen surpressed, they ended up coming in contact with the players, who proceeded to destroy them.

At any rate, I haven't seen any Mursaat influence in Cantha yet.

Ranger Nietzsche

26-05-2006, 05:24

i still agree with a bloodstone under teh harvest temple. as for how it got there i think QA overestimates the distance needed to travel. In another thread i posted the likely dimensions of the canthan world map ot be under 10 miles. even "across teh sea" from tyria to cantha could thus be a matter of 20 or 30 mles or even less. now i dont know much about volcanoes, but as teh sound of Krakatoa was enough to be heard in texas, the idea of it flinging a large stone 30 miles seems viable to me, especially if that stone and said mountain are pretty magical.

Laibeus Lord

26-05-2006, 05:51

Hmm for some reason it appears that I'm the only one who watched or remembers all the videos they released before GWF.

Remember the eye or the symbol? It controlled/consumed Shiro and corrupted him. If I remember correctly, a narrator was speaking in that video as well telling us how Shiro "became evil" and ultimately killed the father of Togo and his half-brother.

THen they released another video, this time they show the symbol on the floor, saying/showing that the evil that consumed Shiro is about to return and Cantha (the Continent not the nation) must once again unite to defeat the evil.

Upon release of GWF, we were shown/told that Shiro is/was trying to come back. The evil that corrupted Shiro might have left Shiro already and Shiro is now fighting two sides of him, the evil Shiro and the good Shiro. Simply, the good Shiro wants to find justice and warn the people of Cantha about that "evil" force but we killed him.

Oh, I remember gaile saying that we will know more about Shiro in the near future.

I dont have the videos anymore, its at home, in the CDs, Im currently in the office. But go check all the videos before the release of GWF, the rest of the history of Shiro, the evil and Cantha are there in those videos.

When I played and finished GWF, I fully understood the whole SL (StoryLine) of the game coz I watched the videos of GWF. The one in the game is only a/the continuation of the whole SL which they started/began telling us with the teaser videos.

Laibeus Lord

26-05-2006, 06:00

On another reply, (I think deserves a separate reply/post):

I think the story of Cantha has something to do with the Prophecies. Remember, we were given a hint about the "envoys" since the Prophecies. Cantha SL is also lingering with clues about the place where all worlds connect, where all heroes are, etc. etc. The mists, the Hall of Heroes, its all there in GWF SL as well. They are simply using different terminologies and we are simply being introduced to a much greater SL.

Example, Ascension and Weh no Su. Yes there are differences between the two but the whole concept behind those two status are the same. To see the Spirit Realm. Although I see a conflict here. Ascended Ascalonians shouldn't be required to go through Weh no Su and Weh no Su Canthans shouldn't go through Ascension.

Anyway, I think Campaign 3 will also have an Ascension/Weh no Su thingy.

Having said that, the greater SL is revolving around the Mists, the Hall of Heroes, and whatever other places are there, in other words it revolves around the place where all worlds meet, where we can access all worlds, that place that keeps the balance in the known universe.

Remember in Prophecies a man was able to unlock all the secrets to travelling between worlds via this place? If I remember it correctly its via the HA. But what about the Mists?

I may be mistaken, confused and mixed things, but I think you get the point.

Mularc Templare

26-05-2006, 08:42

I would have to say that Ascention and Wen No Su, whilst being for relatively the same need in-game, are not of the same group. Wen No Su gives us the ability to see into the sprit world whereas Ascention gives us the ability of True Sight which allows us to see the truth in mortal beings, which the Mursaat are. We can see them because they exist in this realm permenetly, whereas the Envoys exist between world as it were - they seem to be unable to be attacked by mortals unless they are near some sort of portal (cf. to Ordan - the portal allows the material & the spectral to interact) on the side, did anyone else notice that if you complete the Wen No Su mission at a level under 20 you dont level to 20 like Ascention?)

The Mists are reffered to as "touching all things" in the lore - it is comparable to our concept of the universe (or to a series of dimensions - it I dont think we've ever define it as such) basically all Realms could be compared with planets. In GW the centre of the Mists is the Rift, where the Hall of Heros resides - Lord Ordan was the firsr mortal to acess it, and thus we now have the ability to go to the hall of heros through the Portal in the battle isles, which he created for easy access to other places of the world.

Hope that hleps and doesn't throw things more out of whack,

Mularc

Quintus Antonius

26-05-2006, 14:01

Laibeus Lord, if that edit button is still active, do not double post. If the topic of the posts is different, seperate the discussions with headers or something simply like some some asteriks (*) and a few taps of the enter key. I understand why you double posted, so I'll let it go, just don't do it again. Thanks.

*****

Anyway, I'd compare the Mists more or less to the quantum foam that makes up everything at the quantum level. It connects all dimensions, times, and places in the multiverse.

I also agree, Wen No Su and Ascension are very different. Otherwise, Tyrian Chosen that come to Cantha couldn't become Closer to the Stars because they were already Ascended, and therefore are already where they need to be.

I think the difference between the two is probably also the difference between the worship styles of each continent. In Tyria, you are trying to get the attention of the gods to enable you to Ascend, so in a way, Ascension is a way of opening a direct link to the Old Gods. In Cantha, there is an emphasis on ancestor and spirit worship, as well as the worship of the Old Gods, so perhaps Wen No Su involves becoming closer to this ever present "spirit" force, which would also explain why we can see Envoys and Spirits once we are Closer to the Stars.

Fossa

27-05-2006, 01:42

I think I'll post it here, it's a transcription of the last scene.
So SPOILER ALERT

Shiro Tagashi: I demand that you release me
Messenger Vetaura: You are no longer an envoy. You cannot demand anything from us.
Shiro Tagashi: Of course I am. You have no power over me.
Emissary Heleyne: You are wrong Shiro.
Herald Demrikov: Denial and disorientation are common among the newly dead.
Shiro Tagashi: No. No. This cannot be.
Courier Torivos: You are merely a new spirit, lost between the realm of the mortal and the Underworld.
Messenger Vetaura: You are our charge now.
Courier Torivos: We have reserved a special place in the Underworld for you.
Emissary Heleyne: A place you will never escape from.
Herald Demrikov: A place where you will finally pay for all your sins.
Shiro Tagashi: I will get you all for this.
Shiro Tagashi: This is not the end for me.
Herald Demrikov: You are right about that.
Courier Torivos: This is not your end.
Herald Demrikov: But you will wish it was.
Emissary Heleyne: We thank you for your help in capturing Shiro.
Messenger Vetaura: We will be watching over you, waiting for the day you will join us in the afterlife.
Courier Torivos: Until then live a long and fruitful life.
Player: Wait. What are you going to do to Shrio.
Messenger Vetaura: Let us worry about Shiro.

Erasculio

28-05-2006, 03:01

However, after killing the Emperor, Shiro "steals" the power of the Harvest Ceremony, which would seem to be inconsistant with the self-defence motive. But remember this is the divine power of the Gods, brought down to bless all of Cantha. It's not just going to vanish into thin air. What if, rather than steal the power, it was directly transfered to Shiro after the Emperor died. After Shiro died, rather than jump again, it became the Jade Wind. The reason for the difference is not clear, but I believe that rather than it being Shiro's intention, it was instead a product of his disturbed mindset, and his feelings of being betrayed and angry, whereas the Emperor is likely to have been feeling suprise at best at the time of his death.

After his death, he was made an Envoy. The process of becoming such isn't clear, and is discussed in a separate thread. As far as I can tell, all events of Factions revolves around Shiro trying to become mortal again. The affliction to gain souls, which are placed inside constructs. The constructs used as part of an army to storm the palace, so that he can kill a member of the royal family and become mortal. But why would he want to become mortal if he is truly as evil as portrayed. Being mortal lessens his power (in Vizunah, he wipes the party with a single wave of his hand, whereas in Imperial Sanctum, he seems to rely almost completely (Banish aside) on sword attacks. The nature of banish isn't clear, but I feel he would have something much more powerful if still an Envoy.
I agree with that. In fact, I don't think Shiro planned to kill the Emperor, much less to take away the power of creating the Jade Sea - if anything, the in game cinematics hint that the decision to act was taken in the very moment he unsheated his swords.

If anything, I think Shiro was just a normal guy who was afraid of death. When confronted with evidence that the Emperor would kill him unless he acted first (and there were a few "evidences" of that), he acted. I have the feeling both the Jade Wind and his following status as an Envoy were side effects of the Emperor's power going through him shortly before he died, together with the despair he felt at that moment.

Now, imagine a guy who's afraid of death, even more afraid than the common person, and has just been placed as the gatekeeper of the dead...I think his position as an Envoy helped to create in Shiro the madness that would lead to the in game events. It would have been smarter to remain as an Envoy, to muster an army to take control of Cantha (and Tyria and everywhere else) and only then become mortal again. What he did was the exact opposite - he attacked first the places where he could learn of the spell, then he sought the power to become flesh again, before breaking Cantha's defenses. I think it was sheer hatred of his own condition as a dead spirit that led him into rushing like that.

Erasculio

Ranger Nietzsche

28-05-2006, 03:24

i still find the envoy lore weird, that all envoys are very evil people attoning for their sins. Where is teh logic in giving these evil people power? And shouldn't their supervisor be pissed when shiro breaks the rules?

Jacobbs

28-05-2006, 17:52

lamlamlam

28-05-2006, 23:27

Just thinking slightly out of the westen lore and GW:P circle here.

I kind of think that the harvast temple is build on a... special spot relate to one of their believe similar to the Chinese? (not sure what it is called in English)
Since Chinese believe in position and how it interact with everything else
(including events, time, the nature of the objects in vicinity, the nature of the people concern) and since we are talking about mythical realm, lets just assume this thing work.

Now if the temple is built on that specific spot, which match the nature of Siro being there at that time, combining with everything thats going on: like the death of Emperor (which was considered to be divine and representative of the sky and Gods, where Dragon is the sign of them), may be even the amount of deaths of the guards. The absorbtion of whatever Siro was absobing in the CG trailer hence making him something else above nomral man, and eventurally the death of this being.

All the things happened tided in and related to each other in a paticular way, resulting in a abnormal event or even miracle as you may like to call it: the Deathwail of Siro

On the Siro topic, he in my view, is just a nromal guy. May be more powerful in fighting and commanding troops wise, but otherwise just a normal human.
What I am saying is before he accturally cut down the emperor, he didn't had the power to do The deathwail, and not knowing what will happen after that.

The fortune teller, just doing what they do: tell the future, and the alternatives. Not necessary evil in this case, its just their job.

Not too sure what the Emperor had in mind, maybe the fortune teller was right on him planning to kill Siro. People in power are always the suspicious type. Anyway his abnormal moves eventurally led Siro to believe the fortune teller, killing the Emperor and started the chain of events.

About the envoy...not too sure where they get that from, and why Siro became one is beyond me.

EDIT: BTW I have not done much proof digging, but since the Faction theme is oriental (as far as the plot related characters and settings), seems like Chinese old believes explain it a bit.

Laibeus Lord

29-05-2006, 04:46

Np @Quintus ^_^

--
Hmm no one checked the early videos of GWF? Maybe someone should write down the dialogues spoken in those videos.

Stardrake

29-05-2006, 10:23

To go off on a slight (and very SPOILERish) tangent...

Did anyone notice that Shiro's form, after being frozen in jade, was in much the same pose as the deathwail? It was certainly the first thing I thought, and those Adepts did seem to be in quite a hurry.

It looks to me like, even after becoming mortal, Shiro still had the power to release the deathwail. Which is where the Adepts came in - they weren't there to freeze Shiro in jade, they were setting up a shield to contain the deathwail - which then rebounded and turned Shiro to jade (as a side effect) instead of repeating the effect of the Jade Wind.

To return to the discussions of Shiro's motives - It's not necassarily true that Shiro was even weakened by becoming mortal. The wiping out of the party could simply have been a release of Manifestation of the Reaper... something that would be impossible to stop by non Wei Neh Su characters without the ability to beat up on him enough to make the Manifestation discharge before reaching its full power.

While he had been researching the spell to make him mortal from the start, it is worth noting that he only did so after his defeat under Sunjiang District. So he may well have been intending to remain an Envoy until he had complete control, but after it was revealed that his opposition were now equipped to fight him, he accelerated his plans to resurrect himself - possibly thinking that he is indeed more powerful as a corporeal entity (maybe in his spirit form he was also vulnerable to anti-spirit skills such as Unnatural Signet, which would go some way to explaining why he fought through the constructs in Sunjiang rather than fighting in person. In Vizuneh, of course, he could simply do what he chose to secure in the knowledge that the PCs, not being able to see him, couldn't respond to him until it was too late).

Findariel

29-05-2006, 11:48

A few things:

* isn't it possible that what the fortuneteller saw was actually the actual emperor (the one in factions) that indeed wants him dead but messed up because she couldn't know that Shiro would "live" that long?

* I think Shiro isn't 100% bad before he kills the emperor. Too much emphasis is laid on his conscience - both when he kills the fortuneteller and just before the actual killing of the emperor.
I guess killing the emperor in a magic filled place like the Harvest Temple made him 100% bad? The person in the game and the person in the flashbacks is hardly the same.

ShadowSword

29-05-2006, 17:25

agreed. I think Shiro was good until he was told the emperor was planning to kill him. Then the weired circumstances convinced him - after-all the fortune teller was right every other time wasn't she?
So the questions are was Shiro bad? If not(as i beleive) what changed him?
Did the emperor really plan to kill him?
Therefore is the emperor evil as shiro is supposed to be?
What was the fortune tellers goals in this?
My beleif is shiro was good and the emperor evil planning to kill him, and that when the blessing went to him, the act of killing made him completely evil. :shocked: