Angels in Tyria?

[Eladain Windshear]

I noticed something interesting the other day. While exploring the Watchtower Coast, one of my henchmen (Claude, I think it was) said something interesting. What he said was "There are no Angels where you're going!"

Are there Angels in Tyria? Nothing I have seen suggests that. Obviously we have seen evidence of other deities (Menzies for example), but nothing to point to an angel type being... When you think about it though, there are demons in Tyria, so why not angels?

Sorry for the lack of a screenshot, It all happened so fast that I didn't get the chance to Screenshot the moment. I will take Claude out on another trek soon to see if he says it again, in which case I will be sure to be ready to record it.

[Griff]

He mean you aren't going to heaven, but rather Hell. No offense, but I am wondering why you didn't pick this one up.

[Eladain Windshear]

I DID pick it up. I understood perfectly the gist of the sentence. But seeing as this is the Lore forum I merely brought forth the question as to whether or not Angels exist in Kryta, not what Claude was talking about.

[False Visage]

The Avatar of Dwayna is quite angelic in appearance, so I'd imagine any angels would be attributed to her. Or, that they could have been mistaken for her Avatar.

[Scutilla]

I too believe that by angels he means the avatars or servants of Dwayna. Perhaps that is the common name for them, we just haven't heard it elsewhere (most of the deific lore seems to focus on Grenth and Balthazar, thanks to their divine realms.

It does bring up a couple of interesting questions though. If the Underworld is the Tyrian equivalent of Hell (or perhaps Purgatory or another neutral place), is there a Tyrian Heaven? There is the Hall of Heroes, but only heroes travel there when they die- is there a general resting place for good people?

And more importantly, will it ever be available to loot and plunder like UW and HoH? :laugh:

[Mularc Templare]

Since the Old Gods are specific called a Pathenon (look up the official site) and we are told about more then the five gods (for example, Luxons in Cantha worship the five and Three Demigoddeses - Alua, Elora & Ione.) So it possible that there are many gods/goddesses and their demi equivilents then we have been shown.

As to the issue of no "devine" realm for Lyssa, Melandru or Dwyana, there may be several explantions (the obvious being the Dev's haven't added them...but since there what seems to be a Canthan version of ToA it surprises me no others were added.), it could possibly be that there is just no need for our characters in their realms yet - or that they do not have equivilents entirely (Although I highly doubt this)

Again, my 2c.

Mularc

[Darumoz]

The Avatar of Dwayna is quite angelic in appearance, so I'd imagine any angels would be attributed to her. Or, that they could have been mistaken for her Avatar.

I agree, but I don't think it would be her avatar, but lesser divine beings in direct service of her. Grenth has his own, so why not the gods?

[Frangeo Munda]

I too believe that by angels he means the avatars or servants of Dwayna. Perhaps that is the common name for them, we just haven't heard it elsewhere (most of the deific lore seems to focus on Grenth and Balthazar, thanks to their divine realms.

It does bring up a couple of interesting questions though. If the Underworld is the Tyrian equivalent of Hell (or perhaps Purgatory or another neutral place), is there a Tyrian Heaven? There is the Hall of Heroes, but only heroes travel there when they die- is there a general resting place for good people?

And more importantly, will it ever be available to loot and plunder like UW and HoH? :laugh:

I haven't done much research on this topic, but I have a feeling that the world of Tyria may be controlled by Norse-type mythology. In Norse mythology, there was a hell (which was actually called "Hel" and was cold!), but their equivalent of heaven was only attainable by those who had died valiantly in battle. In this paradisical realm, which was Valhalla and all that, these dead warriors would duke it out all day and drink and party all night. But, similarly to what we've seen in Tyria, there's no heaven in the Christian sense.

So most likely, if there is a "heaven" of any sorts in Tyria, it will be a PvP arena during the day and a source of free Dwarven Ales at night.

[Quintus Antonius]

Abrahamic religions are the only mainstream historical religions that believed in the concept of a Heaven for the good and a Hell for the bad, and even the modern usage of those terms is derived from other places. For instance "Hell" is from the Norse "Hel" (pronunced heel), but the images of fire and torment are from the Bible. Hell was just how King James translated it ,and it stuck.

Most ancient religions, especially those of a panteonic type, such as we find in Roman, Greek, Norse, and of course, Guild Wars, don't have much an emphasis on the average bloke. The only people who go to a hell of torment or a heaven of reward are those who gain the favor of the gods though their deeds. Everyone else is just grouped together in the general Underworld. The deity of this realm isn't a Satanic type demon figure like we may imagine, just the god or creature that governs over the concept of death. Not good nor evil, as once again, these are mainly Abrahamic religious concepts.

Angels are general servents and first appeared in the minor religions of Asia Minor before the spread of Christianity. They are not gods nor mortals but exist in a limbo between these two, serving both. A mortal cannot interact with a god, and vise versa, but angels can traverse this gap, and thus the concept of angel was born.

I doubt each god and goddess has his or her own realm, to be honest. In other pantheonic religions, except for a few gods, the main body of deities occupied special places on Earth (think Mount Olympus). We see this in GW as well in the Orrian capital Arah. It's likely that the Old Gods have a gathering place outside the conventional concept of space-time in the GW multiverse, and this is where they all are, with the exceptions of those like Grenth, who still appear to occupy a different plane of reality from their "realm".

[Reverend Loki]

Abrahamic religions are the only mainstream historical religions that believed in the concept of a Heaven for the good and a Hell for the bad...
{snip}

Most ancient religions, especially those of a panteonic type, such as we find in Roman, Greek, Norse, and of course, Guild Wars, don't have much an emphasis on the average bloke.


I disagree there. Buddhism has it's Nirvana, and Zoroastrianism has it's own Heaven and Hell concepts that closely match that comonly depicted, just for an example. The Ancient Greeks had their Elyssian Fields, final destination for the Heroic or Virtuous. The Egyptians had their "Fields of Yalu", where a good and properly embalmed soul would travel to, while an unworthy heart was fed to the demon Ammit.

Several of the sects of Asian believes, based on Taoism, Shinto, or something else, may not depict an actual Heaven and Hell as places, but they do depict a general spiritual afterlife, where those who lived a certain way are rewarded, and others are punished.

The demarkation isn't necessarily between Good/Bad; sometimes, it's completely arbitrary. For many Shinto, it's as simple as whether or not your name is in a temple or not. For many Christian sects, it's not if you are good, but whether you believe and accept Jesus. One man can live as a model "Good Samaritan" and not follow Christ, while another can be a serial killer, but believe in Jesus. According to many Christian sects, the killer gets into heaven, and the "good guy" doesn't.

Many Jews also don't believe in the Faustian style Heaven and Hell. When you die, you'r dead. When the Messiah comes, those who kept the faith will be resurrected, while everyone else just stays dead. No Hell for them, just a lot of nothing.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

There are a lot of different interpretations. Modern judaism differs greatly from ancient, especialy when sects etc. are considered.

As far as the Elyssian fields vs Tartarus etc. are considered, many groups of Greeks didnt believe in these places at all, but simply the life forever type situation of a universal underworld.

Then again some greek religions believed in Artemis as a fertility God. WHere most descriptions of her specifically mention her Virginity. Generalizing ancient greek and roman religion together and even seperately is never wise. It would be the same and worse as lumping all Protestant and Catholics and all other forms of CHristians together.

As for Zoroastrianism, one could just as easily lump it with the Abrahamic religions as QA named them. BOth Judaism and Zoroatrianism have many things in common, both claim to have existed since the dawn of time. Most historians believe one grew from the other but there is not consensus as to which came first.

Also Loki, you dont really respond to QA's claim. he specifically segments abrahamic religions as having hell for bad and heaven for good. as you said, in many of your examples the difference is arbitrary. in this case your examples do not refute QAs claim.

Christianity i know little about compared to most people on this forum, so i will keep my mouth shut.

But the fact is most Pantheonic religions lacked a simple good vs bad type of heaven and hell. QA is genarally correct. THe moral one can gain from most stories of Greek mythology is that it is best to not attract the attention of the GOds at all, since 99.9% of hte time it turns out badly.

GW is no exception. Take the Lost Village in teh underworld. As far as I can tell Gwens mother and Co. did no evil, but are still in teh Underworld. Most likely the underworld is much larger than what we see, and those areas we dont are areas Grenth does not need our help in.

[Blue_Deth]

As Quintus had said, there could be an area where the gods live in Tyria... hmmm, when I though of this it brought me to another idea. In the manuscript it said that King Doric (had to look it up), pleaded with the gods. He's not an angel or a religious figure in the history of Tyria. But he was somehow able to speak to the Tyrian gods. Maybe there's a secret underground area which you can travel to... by speaking to a peasant?

[Nikhera]

As Quintus had said, there could be an area where the gods live in Tyria... hmmm, when I though of this it brought me to another idea. In the manuscript it said that King Doric (had to look it up), pleaded with the gods. He's not an angel or a religious figure in the history of Tyria. But he was somehow able to speak to the Tyrian gods. Maybe there's a secret underground area which you can travel to... by speaking to a peasant?

Yes, King Doric was able to plead with the Gods because he did so at a time during which they still inhabited Tyria.

Before the Exodus (which was when the Old Gods left Tyria) at least three of the gods lived in Arah, a sacred city on the Orrian peninsula. When the gods left, the people of Orr guarded the scared city until it was destroyed in the Cataclysm. So yes, there was a place where the Gods lived in Tyria, however, it's long gone. I assume they reside on some other celestial plane inside the mists...

As for angels...it sees that each of the gods has some kind of servants. Lyssa has Muses, Balthazar has Champions, Grenth has Servants...

I think it would be safe to assume that Claude was reffering to an Avatar of Dwayna - after all, she is the goddess of life (and it seems like she is the most kind and gentle god there it.) It could be said that Grenth and Dwayna are opposites - Grenth is the god of death, ice, darkness, Dwayna is the goddess of life, air, healing. Perhaps when Claude was speaking of a place with no angels, he was thinking of somewhere Dwayna's avatars would have no place - The Underworld. :smiley:

[Quintus Antonius]

I think it's important to remember, as far as the lore goes, that there are only three known places for you to go when you die--the Hall of Heroes, the Underworld, and having your soul trapped in your rotting corpse for all eternity. This is according to the original lore in the original Guild Wars Manuscripts.

It also appears that each creature, for lack of a better term, that serves each of the various gods appears to be created by the god in a form which represents what they themselves represent. Thus, I think it could be argued that the avatar of Dwayna is in fact an angel. Dwayna herself is described as angelic by the lore.

As for where the Old Gods are, we know they are somewhere tangible as the European GW Manuscripts say that Odran finds them in the Mists.

[halfthought]

I too believe that by angels he means the avatars or servants of Dwayna. Perhaps that is the common name for them, we just haven't heard it elsewhere (most of the deific lore seems to focus on Grenth and Balthazar, thanks to their divine realms.

It does bring up a couple of interesting questions though. If the Underworld is the Tyrian equivalent of Hell (or perhaps Purgatory or another neutral place), is there a Tyrian Heaven? There is the Hall of Heroes, but only heroes travel there when they die- is there a general resting place for good people?

And more importantly, will it ever be available to loot and plunder like UW and HoH? :laugh:


It probably is puragatory, not hell, (or at least not entirely, it seems to be the "parking lot" of heaven, where every one sorted into the appropeite sections

[Raven Flameheart]

Dwayna and Grenth aren't Good and Evil, they are Life and Death. Whilst they are in opposition to each other (for example, Wintersday), they are not stated by Alignment, they are stated by Function.

Assuming that any servant of Dwayna would be called an Angel (Angels must be something in GW lore, else they wouldn't be mentioned. This seems the most logical choice), it can be seen that no Angel, (a servant of Life) would exist in the Underworld (the realm of Death). Therefore, the place Claude is sending someone to is the Underworld, making no reference to Heaven or Hell, and therefore to how good or evil the target is.

[Nikhera]

Exactly my thoughts, Raven. ^_^ /agreed