View Full Version : Are Kurzicks/Luxons descendants of Elonians/Margonites?
I do not have my PRIMA guide right here, but I read something interesting and will add the full text of this passage later on:
The seafaring Luxons as well as the Kurzick - could they be the descendants of former Elonians/Margonites?
In Melandru's Hope you find archways that look very much like the structures at the tower construction sites in the crystal desert.
The Luxons are a seafaring warlike people, and their conflict with the Kurzick... did the Elonians not fail to ascend due to internal conflicts?
Also take a look at St. Viktor... um. I do not know, but I was so reminded of Killn Testibrie, ghostly hero armor. I need to check again which kind of helmet and cuirass the ghost of St. Viktor carries.
Then there is also the fact that Kurzicks have despite asian features a mix of eastern (Vassili, Danika) and german names (Lukas, Karl, Klaus).
The luxons are now landlocked sailors. They could have come from everywhere, but their clan structure and culture does not seem to be Kaineng-Canthan.
The Prima Guides remains rather vague and says that there is a controversy about their origins, and I must admit there are more traces than clear evidence. Maybe we cannot proof the one or the other, but I think it is well worth to research if these things could at least be possible to a rather convincing degree.
This is a theory I've been working on for quite some time, and I was suprised that Quintus Antonius, Karlos from GuildWiki and even the PRIMA guide share my views.
However, on the Mouvelian Caldendar, the humans first arrived in Cantha in 786 BE. Humans didn't appear until 205 BE and the Luxons didn't formally leave the empire until 462 BE. A timeline says this:
1769 BE - Mursaat arrive in Tyria and Cantha
786 BE - Humans arrive on the northwest corner of Shing Jea Island, but remain untouched by Mursaat
462 BE - Luxons officially leave the Empire of the Dragon
205 BE - Humans arrive in Tyria
174 AE - The Mursaat leave Tyria and Cantha
221 AE - Cantha opens trade routes to Tyria
Circa 850 AE - Elonians arrive and leave Tyria
1072 AE - Present day
Unfortunately, I don't have any dates as to when the Margonites arrived in Tyria, or when the Luxons arrived in Cantha. Although the Margonites were meant to have "predated the Elonians by hundreds of years", they would have to have predated them by over 1400 years for them to have arrived in Cantha, and the Margonites would have spent a very short amount of time in Cantha before becoming the Luxons. You'd think something like this would be documented more across Cantha.
However, where words fail, there is physical evidence of a Luxon presence in Cantha when the desert was still a sea.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/4/46/Margonite_Ascension.JPG
Looks like early Luxon architecture, dontcha think?
Nice idea but... aren't the Elonians still living? I mean how else would you get real Elonian Mirrors (in a canthan quest) to give away to homeless people... I'm of the firm belief that chapter 3 will be held in Elonia as, just like Cantha was in Prophecies it was also mentioned... just a thought
Cyberman
04-06-2006, 12:43
I mean how else would you get real Elonian Mirrors (in a canthan quest) to give away to homeless people...
The mirrors are old, I think. They are precious, no doubt. (Which makes the action so ridiculous - giving priceless but useless items to homeless people.)
I looked on guildwiki for something on the elonians and it came up with an interesting page: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Elona but even this doesn't answer it either way... guess we may just have to find out later. :scratch:
This is a theory I've been working on for quite some time, and I was suprised that Quintus Antonius, Karlos from GuildWiki and even the PRIMA guide share my views.
However, on the Mouvelian Caldendar, the humans first arrived in Cantha in 786 BE. Humans didn't appear until 205 BE and the Luxons didn't formally leave the empire until 462 BE. A timeline says this:
1769 BE - Mursaat arrive in Tyria and Cantha
786 BE - Humans arrive on the northwest corner of Shing Jea Island, but remain untouched by Mursaat
462 BE - Luxons officially leave the Empire of the Dragon
205 BE - Humans arrive in Tyria
174 AE - The Mursaat leave Tyria and Cantha
221 AE - Cantha opens trade routes to Tyria
1072 AE - Present day
Unfortunately, I don't have any dates as to when the Margonites arrived in Tyria, or when the Luxons arrived in Cantha. Although the Margonites were meant to have "predated the Elonians by hundreds of years", they would have to have predated them by over 1400 years for them to have arrived in Cantha, and the Margonites would have spent a very short amount of time in Cantha before becoming the Luxons. You'd think something like this would be documented more across Cantha.
However, where words fail, there is physical evidence of a Luxon presence in Cantha when the desert was still a sea.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/4/46/Margonite_Ascension.JPG
Looks like early Luxon architecture, dontcha think?
You are confusing a few things:
1769 BE - Mursaat arrive in Tyria and Cantha
174 AE - The Mursaat leave Tyria and Cantha
786 BE -Humans arrive on the northwest corner of Shing Jea Island, but remain untouched by Mursaat
It aren't te Mursaat but the Serpents and that makes A Big difference. As far as I know there isn't even a connection between the Mursaat and Serpents.(although, there is some discussion about the connection between the jade armors and the enchanted)
It isn't even known, I think, that there were serpents on Cantha? It isn't exactly clear what Anet means with "Serpents in Tyria" because Tyria could be only one continent or could be the whole world.
Quintus Antonius
04-06-2006, 17:10
I think you are misinterperting the nature of Luxon culture. They were seafaring nomads before the Jade Wind. The Margonites can be Luxons without predating the Luxons who become the current Canthan Luxons.
It's simple really, a bunch of Luxons are out at sea, one guy says, "Hey let's go north!", the other, "Hey, you suck, we're going south!" The two groups, at that time one culture, split and change. The Margonites die out in the Desert after failing to Ascend, and the Luxons settle in Cantha until the Jade Wind when they are forced to become landlubbers.
So yes, the Margonites could be the Luxons without actually having to become the Luxons. The current Luxons and the Margonites are cousin cultures both derivated from a common unifying culture that existed at some point in the past.
As for the Elonians, Elona is a place seperate from the continents of Tyria and Cantha, and it still exists today. Several in-game sources, as well as the Prima guide talk of Cantha setting up trade agreements presently with the nation of Elona. The Elonians in the Crystal Desert were a colony led by the Ghostly Hero who leads us through the Ascension missions in the Crystal Desert. They die off after building WeaponX and killing each other off, but the nation that they came from, on another continent, still exists.
I do not believe that they are in anyway connected to the Kurzicks. That said, it is possible that the Kurzicks are in some way connected to Elona, but I do not believe they are connected to the Elonians in the Crystal Desert, and I have seen no indication that the clash between the Kuzicks and Luxons can in anyway be traced to the Elonians and Margonites. We will find out more about Elona in Chapter 3, and hopefully, that will settle this when we are exposed to more of their lore and culture.
Some excerpts of the Prima Guide:
About the Kurzicks
Historians doubt the Kurzick nation originated on the Canthan continent, but to this day, even they do not remember whence they came to dwell in the Echovald Forest. The Kurzick have lost of their history to the past, and now the stone trees are their only home.
About the Luxons:
... they mostly pray to Balthazar, Grenth, or (to the surprise of those who have never seen the intrinsic beauty of Luxon architecture and engineering) Lyssa. Luxon children still hear stories of their people's original home, a nameless place far across the open ocan and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever. Some historians believe that new discoveries point to a Luxon presence in the Crystal Desert more than a thousand years ago, but just as many believe this to be a misinterpretation of the evidence.
Some more stuff:
The Canthan year 0 is the same as the Mouvelian (i.e. Tyrian) year 510 BE; the Mouvelian Year 0 is the year 510 to Canthans.
The year of Canthan settlement is unknown, as is that of Tyrians on the northern continent according to the guide. Canthans supposedly originated on Shing Jea, and the only thing that is known is that the Kurzick and Luxons arrived AFTER the tribes that would settle Canthan mainland.
Also interesting:
Surprisingly, although surving records and artifacts from this period prove that the serpentine Forgotten dwelt in Cantha as well, they appear not to have come into conflict with humans there.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/4/46/Margonite_Ascension.JPG
Looks like early Luxon architecture, dontcha think?
Do you not see a similar structure in the cutscene preceding the final mission (Imperial Sanctum / Shiro Fight)?
Quintus Antonius
04-06-2006, 18:34
I agree that the Luxons and the Margonites are related, but the Margonites died out in the Desert, thus I don't believe the modern Luxons to be direct derivatives of the Margonites. However, I believe they are closely related, and thus their architecture is very similar. We can't ignore their circumstances either, both Margonite and Luxon were stranded when the water they used dried up. So, it's not surprising at all that we see the boats being used as housing material once they cease to operate as seafaring vessels.
As for the Kurzicks, I have no idea where they came from, but I do agree with the similarities between ancient Kurzick structures and structures found in the Crystal Desert, specifically the arches; I point it out during the FPE in a thread buried in the forums. That said, I don't believe the Kurzicks are the Elonians, but the Margonites and Elonians aren't the only cultures who existed in the Desert. The people who built the giant statues in Hero's Ascent for instance, and then there are also the mysterious Seekers. Both show the architectural graduer present in the Kurzick culture.
Personally, I think that some architecture and art in Tyria and the Battle Isles are influenced by the Kurzicks, but not directly so in the sense that Kurzicks actually visited Tyria and made them. Indeed, if the Kurzicks did visit Tyria, then it seems unlikely that they would have settled - it makes for bad plot twists if there were isolated incidents of both Kurzicks and Luxons tracing their ancestry back to the Crystal Desert, one way or the other.
From what I have seen and heard about Elonians, I just don't see it plausible that the Kurzicks are from Elona, especially with the chance of an Elonian expansion.
Katscratched
01-07-2006, 10:48
I agree that the Luxons and the Margonites are related, but the Margonites died out in the Desert, thus I don't believe the modern Luxons to be direct derivatives of the Margonites.
Instead, wouldn't it make more sense to say the opposite? - that the Margonites may be a derivative of the Luxons. Consider that the Luxons became a vassal clan in 48 CC/462 BE, and Cantha began trading with Tyria in 731 CC/221 AE. It wasn't until 1382 CC/872 AE that Shiro slew Emperor Angsiyan, thus releasing the Jade Wind and land-locking the Luxons.
Trade with Tyria was stopped by formal decree some 40 years later, which makes sense considering both the tragic events in Cantha and turmoil in Tyria (this shortly preceeds the first Guild Wars by less than 100 years) and reopened in 1581 CC/1071 AE (of note, this same date is given for the renaming of the Bay of Sirens to the Sea of Sorrows, as a result of shipwreks, not the fall of Orr, in the Factions Manuscripts.) Given the Crystal Desert's southernly location, it would make sense for this to be /the/ first sailor's coming from Cantha based on our current maps.
The port town of Amnoon Oasis may serve to strength this theory, when its "architecture," not to mention the crows nest in the center of town are compared to what are consider Margonite artifacts and Luxon settlements (even assuming the two cultures are related, not necessarily in the way purposed here.) Then again, the architecture of Amnoon could simply be a reflection of its current status as a port town. This by no means implies that Amnoon itself would have been the first city, quite the opposite. Being coastal, it would have a lower elevation, and therefore would have probably been beneath the water when the Luxons would have first arrived. However, as the waters receeded, this would eventually BECOME a coastal town, or may have been built after the coast formed.
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/9127/birdsnet1ls.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birdsnet1ls.jpg)
Also of note is this broken statue found in Amnoon:
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7879/statues17hs.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=statues17hs.jpg)
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/9740/statues33yp.th.jpg (http://img287.imageshack.us/my.php?image=statues33yp.jpg)
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4825/statues28dw.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=statues28dw.jpg)
The Luxons deified the Three Queens and worships them alongside the Gods of Tyria. Could this be a portrayl of those demi-goddesses? (I do not have much information on them at this time. Perhaps a Luxon or someone with access to the NPCs in those territories Cantha could look into it?)
Edit:: I saw this thread go up shortly after this post. Please direct any infomation off-topic information concerning the Three Queens there. Link (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=408248)
To quote the last line of the first paragraph in the Factions Manuscripts concerning Luxons after the Jade Wind:
". . .the currents that took them to far-flung lands were now still as glass."
This implies that the Luxon settlements of Cantha were a "base of operations," of a sort, for expeditions to other lands. If they were spawned from another sea-faring civilization that also spawned the Margonites, wouldn't the Luxons have maintained contact with them, or had they perished within the last 800 years, wouldn't some mention of them probably have been made?
Quintus Antonius
01-07-2006, 17:44
Three things:
1) Excellant post, you make great points and use images and creditable sources well.
2) You took my quote out of context. Read it again. I said exactly what you said, "...I don't believe the modern Luxons to be direct derivatives of the Margonites." So yes, I already agreed with you, no need to prove your point to me.
3)
This implies that the Luxon settlements of Cantha were a "base of operations," of a sort, for expeditions to other lands. If they were spawned from another sea-faring civilization that also spawned the Margonites, wouldn't the Luxons have maintained contact with them, or had they perished within the last 800 years, wouldn't some mention of them probably have been made?
Apparently there was some contact with the Margonites, after all, that's where we first find out about the Luxon-Margonite connection, from Canthan sources. So someone remembers. It may have just been so long ago (as you mentioned, almost a thousand years) that the collective memory of the culture has simply forgotten its cousin branch. Remember, this is in a time when history was sung or told around a campfire rather than written down or recorded digitally, moreso especially in cultures such as that of the Luxons.
Another possibility is that the Margonites were still considered "Luxons" and as such are not identified by a special name to the current Luxons. There may be references to them that we don't even realize, simply because they are masked by another name.
Katscratched
01-07-2006, 19:53
Thank you Quintus, I really should't do so much of my reading at such ungodly hours, let alone make my first post of any consequential size. My apologizes for taking you out of context.
I won't bother quoting your post here, but what I was really trying get at was lineage (or who derived from who). Its the possibility that instead of two boats, both leaving the same port, and one arriving in Cantha, the other arriving in Tyria as you suggested, that there may have simply been one boat, and the original port was Cantha. I see no reason to doubt there would have been contact between the Margonites and the Luxons, until either they died off, or the Jade Wind, whichever came first (As to my knowledge, we don't have any dates directly related to the Margonites?). I meant to imply that if there was a third "parent" civialization for both, we don't have any obvious evidence of it, other than conjecture and what the PRIMA apparently outright calls controversy. (Controversy is fun though. hehe)
Its an arguement of the chicken and the egg really. I see no reason to press the point until we find further evidence. Both theories have credibility, and we definate agree on the overall themes of this.
I too believe that the Luxons are originated from .. the Margonites..
If you're too enter Elona Reach mission..you would see little spiky plants outside small ponds in the Minotaur area.. now look closer..
don't they resemble the ones in the Jade Sea?
i thought the same thing but it doesnt necessarily mean that, those plants simply suggest there was once water in those areas, even if the luxons did live there would they really bring a plant with them when they left? and even if they did bring plants would it be one like that?
Instead, wouldn't it make more sense to say the opposite? - that the Margonites may be a derivative of the Luxons. Consider that the Luxons became a vassal clan in 48 CC/462 BE, and Cantha began trading with Tyria in 731 CC/221 AE. It wasn't until 1382 CC/872 AE that Shiro slew Emperor Angsiyan, thus releasing the Jade Wind and land-locking the Luxons.
Trade with Tyria was stopped by formal decree some 40 years later, which makes sense considering both the tragic events in Cantha and turmoil in Tyria (this shortly preceeds the first Guild Wars by less than 100 years) and reopened in 1581 CC/1071 AE (of note, this same date is given for the renaming of the Bay of Sirens to the Sea of Sorrows, as a result of shipwreks, not the fall of Orr, in the Factions Manuscripts.) Given the Crystal Desert's southernly location, it would make sense for this to be /the/ first sailor's coming from Cantha based on our current maps.
The port town of Amnoon Oasis may serve to strength this theory, when its "architecture," not to mention the crows nest in the center of town are compared to what are consider Margonite artifacts and Luxon settlements (even assuming the two cultures are related, not necessarily in the way purposed here.) Then again, the architecture of Amnoon could simply be a reflection of its current status as a port town. This by no means implies that Amnoon itself would have been the first city, quite the opposite. Being coastal, it would have a lower elevation, and therefore would have probably been beneath the water when the Luxons would have first arrived. However, as the waters receeded, this would eventually BECOME a coastal town, or may have been built after the coast formed.
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/9127/birdsnet1ls.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birdsnet1ls.jpg)
Also of note is this broken statue found in Amnoon:
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7879/statues17hs.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=statues17hs.jpg)
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/9740/statues33yp.th.jpg (http://img287.imageshack.us/my.php?image=statues33yp.jpg)
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4825/statues28dw.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=statues28dw.jpg)
The Luxons deified the Three Queens and worships them alongside the Gods of Tyria. Could this be a portrayl of those demi-goddesses? (I do not have much information on them at this time. Perhaps a Luxon or someone with access to the NPCs in those territories Cantha could look into it?)
Edit:: I saw this thread go up shortly after this post. Please direct any infomation off-topic information concerning the Three Queens there. Link (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=408248)
To quote the last line of the first paragraph in the Factions Manuscripts concerning Luxons after the Jade Wind:
". . .the currents that took them to far-flung lands were now still as glass."
This implies that the Luxon settlements of Cantha were a "base of operations," of a sort, for expeditions to other lands. If they were spawned from another sea-faring civilization that also spawned the Margonites, wouldn't the Luxons have maintained contact with them, or had they perished within the last 800 years, wouldn't some mention of them probably have been made?
First I really loved this idea(it was a really nice find), but yesterday when I walked with a char from the Dragon's Lair into the Tomb of Primeval Kings I saw somethings else. When you walk into the tomb you can see an arch who at his both sides has the same statues as the one you have shown. There is one big difference with the one in Amnoon Oasis: there are 4 persons in these statues, not 3. So the theory that it resembles the 3 queens doesn't seem to be correct.
Katscratched
06-07-2006, 07:20
First I really loved this idea(it was a really nice find), but yesterday when I walked with a char from the Dragon's Lair into the Tomb of Primeval Kings I saw somethings else. When you walk into the tomb you can see an arch who at his both sides has the same statues as the one you have shown. There is one big difference with the one in Amnoon Oasis: there are 4 persons in these statues, not 3. So the theory that it resembles the 3 queens doesn't seem to be correct.
Thank you very much - I found the statues you were referring to, and while it was exciting to have found what might have been a link (not to mention I've been wondering about that statue,) I'm glad to have this information. I hadn't realized that broken "lump" in the back of the Amnoon statue was another figure (though, the more I look at it. . duh,) due to the scaffolding. I still wonder why one of these statues is IN Amnoon, however in light of this discovery, it no longer is evidence of what I had previously conjectured.
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/765/noqueen16hg.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noqueen16hg.jpg) http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/430/noqueen34ln.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noqueen34ln.jpg) http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1396/noqueen21qf.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noqueen21qf.jpg)
While these smaller statues might not be the 3 queens, there're however 3, (or I think there are 3 >< ), larger statues. Remember the huge female warrior statue in the arid sea that has a leg that's almost eroded(sp)?
There're more of those, some fallen over, some still standing. There might be a chance that those are the queen's statues. The fact that they're portrayed as warriors makes sense, since they value strength, and the three queens were once mighty leaders of the clans. Though I think someone will need to go and see if we can find all 3 :P
While these smaller statues might not be the 3 queens, there're however 3, (or I think there are 3 >< ), larger statues. Remember the huge female warrior statue in the arid sea that has a leg that's almost eroded(sp)?
There're more of those, some fallen over, some still standing. There might be a chance that those are the queen's statues. The fact that they're portrayed as warriors makes sense, since they value strength, and the three queens were once mighty leaders of the clans. Though I think someone will need to go and see if we can find all 3 :P
The curious thing is that those giant statues depict women warriors dressed in the Knight's Armor style, which is totally different from what we've seen of armor fashions from Cantha (Luxon, Kurzick or otherwise).
Quintus Antonius
06-07-2006, 08:18
All of this has been discussed in other threads. I suggest reading the other Crystal Desert threads before beginning any new discussion on this subject.
The curious thing is that those giant statues depict women warriors dressed in the Knight's Armor style, which is totally different from what we've seen of armor fashions from Cantha (Luxon, Kurzick or otherwise).
They weren't canthan before they went to cantha isnt it :P
btw, there's a thread about why the statues are built? o.O
Quintus Antonius
06-07-2006, 18:21
I wouldn't have said it if it wasn't true, use the search feature.
I believe the thread's title is "Ascalons Last Trek Revealed" or something like that, it was one of Eratimus's early works.
ShadowSword
06-07-2006, 19:59
What happened to Eratimus anyway? Without him presumably there will be no more Compendium stickies or will they be revived?
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