View Full Version : Reward for roleplaying toons in PvP?
GADefence
21-06-2006, 06:01
I'm just curious, since I doubt I've seen this suggested before (oh, it probably has, but what hasn't?) Has ANet ever considered giving roleplaying toons rewards in PvP, the same way PvP toons get them now?
I mean, as a person with 6 roleplaying toons, I have very little motivation to play PvP. I do it for fun with guildies, but, I've accumulated 10K Balthazar Faction doing absolutely nothing. Could the priest of Balthazar, I don't know, use this in some way that benefits me? EX: Takes 10K faction to add a +1% damage mod to a weapon, turning a +14 to a +15% damage, or something with the likes?
I'm just curious due to ANet's seeming want to make PvE toons entre PvP, and I'm sure a reward (ludicrously expensive, mind you, 10K balthazar faction for a +1% damage mod? I think you can unlock a whole line of things for a PvP account with that much, and this only hits one weapon!) would go a long way towards making PvE toons play more PvP. . . Any thoughts?
DarkerFate
21-06-2006, 06:16
Pretty good idea, actually.
Archenine Paranoia
21-06-2006, 06:45
I don't think it's a good idea. Faction Farming then becomes a full time business of PVP HA players upgrading all those 14%/rare skins into 15% and earning a fortune doing it. Frankly, it benefits PVP more than PVE. If you wanted a PVE bonus, then it shouldn't be a statistical advantage.
Ju Smurph
21-06-2006, 06:52
I think this is what they are trying to acheive with Luxon/Kurzick faction...
As Archie above would know :grin:
HeavensX
21-06-2006, 06:53
pve characters already have an advantage in pvp.
armor swapping, better items, to name a few
+ you dont look like trash wearing the default pvp armor :)
all 5 of my pve's are ready for pvp
Shoitaan
21-06-2006, 06:54
If you did HA, you'd get the emotes same as PvP players.
And generally I find that PvP is undertaken by people who enjoy PvP. You shouldnt need Anet to bribe you to PvP... if you dont enjoy PvP, dont do it and dont complain about it and stick to PvE :)
Scutilla
21-06-2006, 07:08
Don't know why you need a reward for PvP- you should be doing it because you want to and because you enjoy it, not because there's phat lewt to get. But then, I say that every time there's a new farming craze, and it seems the rest of Tyria thinks differently :wink: EDIT: Shoitaan said it much better than I.
I don't think Balthazar faction's supposed to be a reward for playing. It's just a tool for expanding your PvP options, nothing more. If you have a PvE player, you already have access to every mod and skill in the game. (And if you argue that PvE characters have to pay gold for them while PvP characters get them for free... well, now you have an incentive to go roll up a PvP character and earn some faction, right? :wink:)
15k/FoW Armor. It's reward enough.
MasterNightfall
21-06-2006, 07:15
I don't think Balthazar faction's supposed to be a reward for playing.
Correct. Balthasaar Faction is Arena.net's glass of water to the starving man of PvP unlocking.
I would have liked to see Balthazar faction convertable into gold, perhaps at a 2:1 ratio, or even a 5:1 or 10:1 ratio.
I would have liked to see Balthazar faction convertable into gold, perhaps at a 2:1 ratio, or even a 5:1 or 10:1 ratio.That would instantly kill the economy.
PenguinPunter
21-06-2006, 07:47
I could see the weapon upgrade thing working as well as not working. If they did make it possible to upgrade your weapon damage, to make it slightly fair this would have to happen:
a) Make the max upgrade be equivalent to the max any pvp only char can have (like the 15%).
b) Make it only possible on customized weapons.
But then again, think about it, this alone would ruin the economy. Who the hell would want to pay for an over-priced 15% damage mod if you could just buy a weapon with a 12% for very cheap and upgrade it yourself?
While it's a cool idea in theory, it just won't work.
/unsigned, sorry dude.
Saint Troy
21-06-2006, 07:56
I would have liked to see Balthazar faction convertable into gold, perhaps at a 2:1 ratio, or even a 5:1 or 10:1 ratio.
That would be so cool.
I love this idea.
It would actually give me a use for all that Balthazar faction.
It would be even better if it applied to Luxon and Kurzick faction too :grin:
That would instantly kill the economy.
It would help rectify the need some people seem to have to buy gold from ebay, I'm sure.
If they could get it simply and easily through PvP instead, hopefully they would not need to spend money on ebay, and hopefully the bots would give up due to the market not being worth it for them anymore :grin:
Maybe it (Balthazar Faction) could be used for the same thing in PvE as in PvP, unlocking skills. For PvE this could mean simply ... skill points (and maybe cap sigs).
That would instantly kill the economy.
Then adjust the ratio of faction to gold to a point where you feel it would be balanced. I personally think 10 faction for 1 gold would probably be best. For 10,000 faction, you'd get 1 platinum, but how long does it take you to get 10,000 faction? Probably an hour or two, if luck was on your side. You could make way more than 1k in that period of time farming.
CHunterX
21-06-2006, 08:29
Why not let PvE characters just unlock skills with Balthazar Faction? Its a better alternative than paying 1k+skill points. I wouldn't even mind if it still required skill points as well, seeing as how all my characters have 60-100 unspent skill points anyway.
DarkSpirit
21-06-2006, 09:03
The whole point of awarding Balthazar Faction is so that you would use it to unlock skills and weapon mods to draw you deeper into Pvp, not reward you in the Pve world.
Gold serves no purpose in the pvp world, since with enough Factions, you can unlock the perfect weapon for pvp.
Rewarding Gold would just tend to keep you interested in the Pve world since you would be thinking of buying 15k armor and all that Pve stuff.
However, I would like a way for a PvE char to be able to issue a PvP challenge to any other PvE chars in the same area. Once accepted, they can fight it out. No rewards, so it cant be abused except that the result is announced to everyone in the area. If the challenge is not accepted, this would also be announced so everyone would know he is a chicken. :wink:
That would instantly kill the economy.
Well with a 10:1 ratio it may not be that bad... I mean 10,000 factions would turn into 1000 gold and I think it takes longer to get 10,000 factions in PvP than it takes to get 1000 gold in PvE... So it would just give a little incentive.
Nkah Sennyt
21-06-2006, 09:28
That would be so cool.
I love this idea.
It would actually give me a use for all that Balthazar faction.
It would be even better if it applied to Luxon and Kurzick faction too :grin:It already is. Amber and Jade.
It already is. Amber and Jade.
What other uses does amber and jade have besides armor?
and I agree with the topic.. need some other uses for the redundant "rewards" you get in GW. Like skill points and balthazar faction..
DarkSpirit
21-06-2006, 09:43
What other uses does amber and jade have besides armor?
I dont know. Selling them for Gold perhaps? :wink:
I still think rewarding gold for Balthazar's Faction would destroy PvE players interest in Pvp rather than promote it.
Selling for Gold perhaps? :wink:
yes that's an obvious one.. like any other item in this game.. it can be sold.
trajiklord
21-06-2006, 10:21
I could see the weapon upgrade thing working as well as not working. If they did make it possible to upgrade your weapon damage, to make it slightly fair this would have to happen:
a) Make the max upgrade be equivalent to the max any pvp only char can have (like the 15%).
b) Make it only possible on customized weapons.
But then again, think about it, this alone would ruin the economy. Who the hell would want to pay for an over-priced 15% damage mod if you could just buy a weapon with a 12% for very cheap and upgrade it yourself?
While it's a cool idea in theory, it just won't work.
/unsigned, sorry dude.
no it wouldn't; the over-inflated prices of those 15^50 weapons need to go down!
Odharith
21-06-2006, 10:31
no it wouldn't; the over-inflated prices of those 15^50 weapons need to go down!
Collectors FTW.
anyways, as I only have PvE-chars, what else am I gonna use the faction for? I don't need high amounts of gold, items, armour or whatever for it, any use would be good really. As long as I can use it for SOMETHING. *cough*barber*cough*:hide:
Heath Laron
21-06-2006, 11:28
What if you could trade 5,000 - 10,000 Balthazar's Faction (plus a skill point) in for a Signet of Capture?
Shoitaan
21-06-2006, 11:41
Collectors FTW.
anyways, as I only have PvE-chars, what else am I gonna use the faction for? I don't need high amounts of gold, items, armour or whatever for it, any use would be good really. As long as I can use it for SOMETHING. *cough*barber*cough*:hide:
collectors or crafters, 15^50's are easy enough to get... and the more specific yet valuable mods like 15while stance etc are also obtainable through these means..
so there you go, the stats you want for a palty 5000 gold and some materials...
no more inflated price
GADefence
21-06-2006, 13:49
Don't know why you need a reward for PvP- you should be doing it because you want to and because you enjoy it, not because there's phat lewt to get. But then, I say that every time there's a new farming craze, and it seems the rest of Tyria thinks differently :wink: EDIT: Shoitaan said it much better than I.
I don't think Balthazar faction's supposed to be a reward for playing. It's just a tool for expanding your PvP options, nothing more. If you have a PvE player, you already have access to every mod and skill in the game. (And if you argue that PvE characters have to pay gold for them while PvP characters get them for free... well, now you have an incentive to go roll up a PvP character and earn some faction, right? :wink:)
While you are mostly being doing it for your own self, I'm mostly talking about RA and TA. While PvP toons get rewarded (further unlocking skills, etc), PvE toons get the shaft.
As to your statement of PvE toons getting every mod in the game, and PvP toons getting them as well - that's more or less the contravetial difference. PvP toons can role a perfect mod every time, where as I've only found five sundering mods (3 for a bow, 1 for an axe, 1 for a hammer) and none of these were perfects. Actually allowing Balthazar faction to mean something, without screwing up anything for the economy, would probably go a long way towards the seamless transition from PvE to PvP (hey, you get rewards for PvE as a roleplaying toon, now I could argu it's not seamless if there's no reward in PvP).
As to ruining the economy, it probably wouldn't. It would end up going one of two ways - people see it and lower their prices, or people see it and raise their prices. Why buy a +15>50 Zodiac sword when I can buy a +13>50 Zodiac sword and boost it up two level with 20K Balthazar Faction? (or however much takes a long time, because I can't judge how fast B Faction is accumulated, stupid 10K cap) Well, either the +15>50 becomes closer in value to the +13, and drops in price ("100K+50 ecto" to "50K" anyone?) OR the +13 raises in value to close to the +15 ("WTS +13, 80K" "dude, that's not worth 80K." "lol omgs nub u can upgrad it n PvP!!!!! lol"). I'd enjoy seeing the effect it has on the economy myself.
What if you could trade 5,000 - 10,000 Balthazar's Faction (plus a skill point) in for a Signet of Capture?
Remove the skill point aspect of that, and yeah, that would do 'er in for roleplaying toons.
As far as I know GW isn't even a RPG
GlendaLock
21-06-2006, 14:48
I took a PvE char into PvP in the mistaken belief I could use the faction I earned to unlock an elite skill for her. To my disappointment I couldn't access that skill with the char who unlocked it.
It turns out that I could now access the skill with a PvP only character (if I make room for one on my account).
Or if I'd unlocked a non-elite skill I would get that skill as an option to buy from a skill trainer in PvE. I'd still have to spend a skill point and gold for my PvE character to use it though.
There's little incentive here to take my PvE character to the arenas again. If I could use Balthazar faction for something useful in PvE then I'd reconsider.
Regarding those who say to do PvP for its own sake, the logical extension of that argument is to do PvE for its own sake. Do you suggest then we have no PvP/PvE crossover at all? You could forget unlocking skills through PvE and only do it though faction earned in PvP. Does that sound reasonable?
BloodStar Dawn
21-06-2006, 14:49
What if you could trade 5,000 - 10,000 Balthazar's Faction (plus a skill point) in for a Signet of Capture?
An idea I had: Was simply to be able to exchange Balthzur faction into experience points. E.g. exchange 10k Balthzur for 10k xp or 10k for 5k. But stick a level 20 cap requirment for the option to be unlocked.
Nathardia
21-06-2006, 14:56
An idea I had: Was simply to be able to exchange Balthzur faction into experience points. E.g. exchange 10k Balthzur for 10k xp or 10k for 5k. But stick a level 20 cap requirment for the option to be unlocked.
Great idea, and I also like the 'Exchange faction for Cap Sigs' idea.
SteveLord
21-06-2006, 15:25
um...you get experience on your character for doing PVP.
An idea I had: Was simply to be able to exchange Balthzur faction into experience points. E.g. exchange 10k Balthzur for 10k xp or 10k for 5k. But stick a level 20 cap requirment for the option to be unlocked.
Sounds like a good idea, but makes the survivor title to easy as you can quest to lvl 20 then go pvp on another char, then claim rewards on lvl 20 guy going for survivor title.
Findariel
21-06-2006, 15:45
Changing faction for gold 1:1 would be good.
Seeing that I earned about 35k for many dozens of hours PvPing .. it's a bargain! Farming Elona is quicker .. but at least you have some reward.
PvP players gain gold and xp with a PvE character to get skillpoints that they can use for buying (= unlocking) skills.
But there's nothing PvE characters can do with Balth. faction.
Upgrade weapons wouldn't be such a good idea imo, and unlocking for PvE not either (since a lvl1 character can get elites with faction from lvl20 players since it's account-wide).
But gold .. we can all use it, even if it's just a symbolical amount.
Nemeon Lion
21-06-2006, 15:51
the idea to trade it for Signets of Capture is quite cool.
that makes the Skill Hunter title much more " inside the reality ". Face it, just for the first level of skill hunter you need MINIMUM 90 skill points unspent and much probably 90 platinum. Its a lot of points and platinum to spent in just to capture elite skills that you more probably wont use anyway =(
i prefer buying the signets of capture throught faction so i really can use them.
What if you could trade 5,000 - 10,000 Balthazar's Faction (plus a skill point) in for a Signet of Capture?
That's another way for saying you want gold ...
I'd rather not grind for skillpoints, so exchanging BF for skillpoints (or cap sig) seems ideal, to me. More skills, more choice of secondary and skills for my RP characters to take into GvG and other PvP events.
So how much BF to unlock a skill? Trade a similar amount in for a skillpoint, or a signet of capture, and I'll take care of buying or capturing the skills.
As far as I know GW isn't even a RPG
Indeed, but in part that is due to the way everybody 'acts' online. You could RP afterall.
Nathardia
21-06-2006, 15:55
um...you get experience on your character for doing PVP.
Yes, but not much though.
There will be a point that you unlocked all the pvp stuff.
At that points you want to have an option to use it.
THe cap sign looks like a good option.
If you look at Faction. You can get an amber/jade for each 1k kurzick/luxon faction. It would also be an option to get a shard for 5k? and ecto for 10k?
Wolf Von Niflheim
21-06-2006, 16:10
I'm having Bal Faction issues aswell, it's completely useless for me since I don't have a PvP toon. Some time ago I was doing some RA (just for the fun of it, not even knowing what faction was at the time) and all of a sudden a message popped up saying I had earned a reward and could go claim it with the priest of Balthazar. Well joy ! I headed to the priest only to find out my reward was for an unexisting PvP toon. What a let down.... If I'm rewarded I want to be rewarded regardless if I'm playing a PvE or a PvP toon, faction is useless to me...
What if my reward would have been a new weaponskin I could use at a crafters ? Or some other goodies ? Would sure be an incentive for me to start gaining Bal faction, now I couldn't care less.
There has to be something a PvE toon can do with faction WITHOUT destabilising the PvE part. So I guess it wil be more "cosmetic" things (could even be dye for all I care).
You could forget unlocking skills through PvE and only do it though faction earned in PvP. Does that sound reasonable?
For someone who dislikes PvE? Yes. Nothing has to force you to do one or the other.
PvE characters in PvP have a slight advantage, in that while both can access perfect mods (albeit with more difficulty for the PvE character), a PvE character can bring 3+ weaponsets, and multiple sets of armor (most specifically, headpieces). While that doesn't make much of a difference in RA, it can help a lot at times in HA/GvG.
Well with a 10:1 ratio it may not be that bad... I mean 10,000 factions would turn into 1000 gold and I think it takes longer to get 10,000 factions in PvP than it takes to get 1000 gold in PvE... So it would just give a little incentive.It's easier for hardcore PvPers to makes 10,000 Faction than makes 1000 gold. Much easier.
Zilken Zatin
21-06-2006, 18:18
Exchanging for caps sigs as an ONLY option is BAD
As part of a set of choices ... its good.
Why? Well theres only 180 Elites atm and thats not gonna go up much with the release of Nightfall. So many players would achieve the caps limit pretty quick.
MasterNightfall
21-06-2006, 18:27
It's easier for hardcore PvPers to makes 10,000 Faction than makes 1000 gold. Much easier.
Umm, not really.
A victory in GvG as a top 100 guild is 1,500 faction. Add in NPC and player deaths, and possibly a flawless... Average 2,000.
And those matches take at minimum 10 minutes. At minimum.
That's an hour for 10,000 faction. Anyone with a clue could farm for a lot more then 1,000 gold in 1 hour.
derBonobo
21-06-2006, 18:39
Rewards for roleplaying toons in PvP should have been implemented a long time ago. Might make me start playing gw again. maybe.
Rewards for roleplaying toons in PvP should have been implemented a long time ago. Might make me start playing gw again. maybe.
If the gameplay itself isn't enough for you, a few more rewards isn't going to cut it.
MasterNightfall
21-06-2006, 20:16
Exactly. 'Carrot on stick' is not the way people should approach PvP.
Hell, it's not the way people should approach the game in general.
It doesn't really matter what reward they give you guys(pve'rs). They can't give you something 'extra'( +1% mods or such on weapons and ect...) that would means something or you will have one thousands wammo with mending+frenzy trying to farm pvp...lol....So you basicly going to end up with cool looking stuff that doesn't do anything if they want to give those types of rewards. Think fow armor but for pvp. Would that get more pve'rs into pvp? Probably. Would they complain when they never win a match to earn the armor that does nothing and start thinking anet is forcing them to grind? Obsolutely.
Into White
21-06-2006, 21:02
Think fow armor but for pvp. Would that get more pve'rs into pvp? Probably. Would they complain when they never win a match to earn the armor that does nothing and start thinking anet is forcing them to grind? Obsolutely. :laugh: could'nt have said it any better. PvE'ers have more than enough rewards. i don't see how giving them more is going to make them any more reasonable.
That's an hour for 10,000 faction. Anyone with a clue could farm for a lot more then 1,000 gold in 1 hour.That's quite a lot for hard-core PvPers, who don't PvE much anyways. :rolleyes:
GADefence
21-06-2006, 21:05
If the gameplay itself isn't enough for you, a few more rewards isn't going to cut it.
Well, with that statement, Fort Aspenwood ends up being 10 thousand times better then RA. Why? Same thing, people had to work there (limits the crowd a bit more), and you get a reward.
MasterNightfall
21-06-2006, 21:08
That's quite a lot for hard-core PvPers, who don't PvE much anyways. :rolleyes:
I'm taking that attempt to compare the amount of effort that those guilds put in to winning PvP matches to the amount of effort it takes to find a solo farming build on a PvE forum or GWWiki, and learning how to mash 1-2-3 as an insult to their, and mine intelligence.
DarkSpirit
21-06-2006, 21:15
Collectors FTW.
anyways, as I only have PvE-chars, what else am I gonna use the faction for?
For Pvp chars of course. The purpose is to get you more involved in Pvp, not make you richer in your PvE world.
If you want to use your Faction but cant find any use for it in the PvE world, you are suppose to consider PvPing more so you can use your Factions, and not convert them to gold or Pve weapon mods upgrades or whatever.
People truly into Pvp would not think like that. Some of them dont even have PvE chars anymore, they deleted them all for creating PvP chars. What's the use of gold to them?
If you really like Pvp more than PvE, you wouldn't be pushing for this. You cant wait to unlock more skills and items for your Pvp chars rather than thinking of making your PvE chars richer by whatever available means.
... Well theres only 180 Elites atm and thats not gonna go up much with the release of Nightfall. So many players would achieve the caps limit pretty quick.
It's not just the Elite's you need for a character and you can cap other skills as well. Trading BF for skillpoints would be a possibility too, but with the caps sig you'd have to 'conquer' the skill.
... If you really like Pvp more than PvE, you wouldn't be pushing for this. You cant wait to unlock more skills and items for your Pvp chars rather than thinking of making your PvE chars richer by whatever available means.
You seem to miss something, namely that we, or I at least, enjoy taking our RP characters into PvP. I understand how to create PvP characters, no problem there, but PvP-only characters are just ... throwaway things.
Perhaps I, or we, are not truly into PvP, but we may still see PvP as something enjoyable.
Saint Troy
21-06-2006, 22:50
It already is. Amber and Jade.
I would rather it was tradeable for gold too, as it's a bit of a PITA to have to then go and sell the Jade and Amber :sad:
Into White
21-06-2006, 23:29
I would rather it was tradeable for gold too, as it's a bit of a PITA to have to then go and sell the Jade and Amber yup, uh huh, you trade in the faction for jade or amber than type on the trade channel WTS 10 jade - 10 k wait 30 secs and have 3 ppl PM you. what a PITA. a couple of minutes to dump all your jade/amber........:tongue:
DarkSpirit
21-06-2006, 23:51
You seem to miss something, namely that we, or I at least, enjoy taking our RP characters into PvP. I understand how to create PvP characters, no problem there, but PvP-only characters are just ... throwaway things.
Perhaps I, or we, are not truly into PvP, but we may still see PvP as something enjoyable.
Balthazar Faction points is one mechanism ANet has to motivate you to build a PvP char.
If you REALLY want to use your RP char to PvP and for some personal reasons do not want to build a PvP char then all the best to you, but dont expect the Faction points to be converted to Gold because they are PvP rewards and should not be converted to PvE rewards.
Otherwise, it would lose all power to motivate others to build PvP chars. Most hardcore PvPers use PvP chars so they dont have to waste time farming for stuff to equip their PvE chars to PvP. This is the optimal way to go for PvP.
Rewards for roleplaying toons in PvP should have been implemented a long time ago. Might make me start playing gw again. maybe.
The rewards are there. Custom armor, looks, weapon skins, endless weapon switches,armor switches.
allinuff
22-06-2006, 00:14
Hehe if anything can be done to attract more PVE characters to PVP this is one of it. Too bad neither side can come to a common ground.
DarkSpirit
22-06-2006, 02:56
Hehe if anything can be done to attract more PVE characters to PVP this is one of it. Too bad neither side can come to a common ground.
The point is to attact more PvE PLAYERS to create PvP characters, not to attract more PvE characters to PvP. There is a difference.
Not enough char slots? You are suppose to be able to buy them from ANet soon anyway.
Stupidname
22-06-2006, 03:02
The point is to attact more PvE PLAYERS to create PvP characters, not to attract more PvE characters to PvP. There is a difference.
No, that wasn't the idea.
DarkSpirit
22-06-2006, 03:04
No, that wasn't the idea.
If that wasn't ANet's idea, then why did they reward PvP victories with Balthazar's Faction rather than Gold in the first place? You think it is because their company do not have people that are smart enough to think of this, unlike some of you here? :grin:
I would venture to say it has always been ANet's idea to persuade people to make PvP chars and PvP. Letting your RP char participate in PvP is only part of this initiative to ultimately draw you to make PvP chars. Otherwise Balthazar's Factions would have a use in the PvE world. It is totally useless for PvE BY DESIGN.
I can also go into why PvP is good for a business like theirs, but they also realized, later, that more players bought the game for its PvE content than they expected so they need to please the PvE players too. The plan to convince them to PvP is still the right way to go since it is better for business.
Who knows, they may change their minds in the future if PvP chars are really unpopular versus PvE chars.
Findariel
22-06-2006, 04:14
If that wasn't ANet's idea, then why did they reward PvP victories with Balthazar's Faction rather than Gold in the first place? You think it is because their company do not have people that are smart enough to think of this, unlike some of you here? :grin:
Well Balthazar's faction wasn't there in the first place.
It was introduced - many months after release - because of PvP complainers who didn't want to unlock skills by playing PvE, what initially was Anet's intention in the first place.
So yes, nothing is perfect and so isn't the PvE characters reward for PvP.
DarkSpirit
22-06-2006, 04:33
It was introduced - many months after release - because of PvP complainers who didn't want to unlock skills by playing PvE, what initially was Anet's intention in the first place.
So you just confirmed that the Balthazar's Factions are meant for PvP chars to unlock skills/weapon mods, not for PvE chars to do anything with.
Perhaps we should just forget about the PvE economy and just have 1 kind of char. This char can do PvE or PvP (essentially your current PvE char) and award skills/weapon mods to them just like for PvP chars.
Findariel
22-06-2006, 04:39
So you just confirmed that the Balthazar's Factions are meant for PvP chars to unlock skills/weapon mods, not for PvE chars to do anything with.
Well using the same kind of flawed logic I could say that PvE unlocks shouldn't count for PvP but just for that specific PvE character. :rolleyes:
Perhaps we should just forget about the PvE economy and just have 1 kind of char. This char can do PvE or PvP (essentially your current PvE char) and award skills/weapon mods to them just like for PvP chars.
Interesting thought but I'm afraid the PvP community will ragequit en masse. 6 slots - 8 classes alone would make this unacceptable for them.
Stupidname
22-06-2006, 04:46
If that wasn't ANet's idea, then why did they reward PvP victories with Balthazar's Faction rather than Gold in the first place? You think it is because their company do not have people that are smart enough to think of this, unlike some of you here? :grin:
I would venture to say it has always been ANet's idea to persuade people to make PvP chars and PvP. Letting your RP char participate in PvP is only part of this initiative to ultimately draw you to make PvP chars. Otherwise Balthazar's Factions would have a use in the PvE world. It is totally useless for PvE BY DESIGN.
I can also go into why PvP is good for a business like theirs, but they also realized, later, that more players bought the game for its PvE content than they expected so they need to please the PvE players too. The plan to convince them to PvP is still the right way to go since it is better for business.
Who knows, they may change their minds in the future if PvP chars are really unpopular versus PvE chars.
PVP only chars were created because of lobbying and whining after pvp-only chars had been introduced in one of the betas. If it wasn't for that, PvP-only characters would never even exist.
PVP only chars were created because of lobbying and whining after pvp-only chars had been introduced in one of the betas. If it wasn't for that, PvP-only characters would never even exist.
Which leads us back to GW just being another grind game, adding the PVP characters which benifited from skill unlocks through PVE'ing, essentially decreasing the grind on the PVP side of the game.
That's quite a lot for hard-core PvPers, who don't PvE much anyways. :rolleyes:
Explain to me exactly what hard-core PvPers, who don't PvE much anyway, are going to do with gold? :wink: There's only ONE thing that a dedicated PvPer could do with gold, and that's to buy a Celestial Sigil. Everything else can be unlocked via Balthazar faction.
DarkSpirit
22-06-2006, 05:53
Well using the same kind of flawed logic I could say that PvE unlocks shouldn't count for PvP but just for that specific PvE character. :rolleyes:
Which goes to show that ANet has been encouraging us to make PvP chars and this is what I have been saying all along.:rolleyes:
Interesting thought but I'm afraid the PvP community will ragequit en masse. 6 slots - 8 classes alone would make this unacceptable for them.
Maybe not if you can level up to 20 very quickly.
PVP only chars were created because of lobbying and whining after pvp-only chars had been introduced in one of the betas. If it wasn't for that, PvP-only characters would never even exist.
Not surprisingly, some people dont want to have to grind just to PvP. It makes sense for ANet to promote PvP anyway and it is easier to Pvp with Pvp-only chars than with PvE chars.
It is simply cheaper for development if we all entertain ourselves than for ANet to have to entertain us. Not to mention the news and press reports on tournaments and competitions bringing even more attention and advertisement for the game.
... but dont expect the Faction points to be converted to Gold because they are PvP rewards and should not be converted to PvE rewards.
Not for gold, I never said that, but for skills, skillpoints or signets of capture.
Otherwise, it would lose all power to motivate others to build PvP chars. Most hardcore PvPers use PvP chars so they dont have to waste time farming for stuff to equip their PvE chars to PvP. This is the optimal way to go for PvP.
No amount of BF and other PvP-only rewards can really motivate me to build PvP-only characters, and I think that goes for many PvE players and if the only optimal way for PvP is to build throwaway PvP characters then there is no point in trying to get PvE players to PvP.
I would venture to say it has always been ANet's idea to persuade people to make PvP chars and PvP. Letting your RP char participate in PvP is only part of this initiative to ultimately draw you to make PvP chars.
Why would ANet want to draw me into making PvP only characters? If ANet wants to persuade PvE players to PvP then having them make PvP-only characters is, I think, not the way to go. The throw-away nature of PvP characters goes against something that is at the core of (C)RPG gaming, designing and training a character from the ground up.
Findariel
22-06-2006, 08:11
Anyway this thread is not about PvP vs PvE and not about that ANet thinks that we SHOULD make PvP characters (after all you can't even play PvE with them) - it´s just a suggestion thread of how faction can be made useful for RPG players that engage in PvP.
Being a PvPer in a Rank 500 Guild I can tell you that my ultimate goal is to have all my 5 PvE chars up to standart of GvG so I can use them for GvG and stop having to reroll every freaking day.
So, yes, Balthz should allow me to do more then simply unlock stuff. I think that, for 3000 Balthz, I should have the choice to:
1 - Unlock an Elite
2 - Get a sig of capture and lose 1 skill point.
For 1000 Balthz I should have the choice to:
1- Unlock a normal skill
2 - Get a skill pass that can be traded to skill trainers for 1 skill (it would basically replace the 1k Fee, so you would still lose 1 skill point).
Finally, these skill pass should be sellable to Merchant for 100g each (so for 10 000 Balthz, you would get 1k)
And Zing, no, it is incredibly easier to make 1k in PvE then to gain 10 000 Balthz in PvP (any of it's form). If it was as easy, lets see, I can make 100 000g in a week (if I get at it seriously). So, in 1 week of PvP I should be able to get myself 1 000 000 000 Balthz Faction. That's 1 billion faction in a week, at that rate, I would have everything unlocked in, well, a ridiculously low time (I don't know the exact amount of faction required, but 1 billion is pretty close to having everything unlocked, if not more).
allinuff
22-06-2006, 16:51
The point is to attact more PvE PLAYERS to create PvP characters, not to attract more PvE characters to PvP. There is a difference.
Not enough char slots? You are suppose to be able to buy them from ANet soon anyway.
No lol. That's a horrid idea from the gamers point of view. Persuasive always trumps coercive. You let the players choose, you do not force. Force indicates a lack of choice, hence static playstyles. In one word. boring.
Btw, who made you A-Nets representative? Oh wait, maybe those are your opinions and not A-Net's game vision? My bad. :azn:
DarkSpirit
22-06-2006, 17:49
Btw, who made you A-Nets representative? Oh wait, maybe those are your opinions and not A-Net's game vision? My bad. :azn:
How would you interpret their intentions then? The fact remains that you can't use your Balthazar's Factions for PvE chars right now but only for PvP chars. I have always considered ANet to be encouraging (not force of course) players to try PvP (e.g. Observer mode, Battle Isles, etc.), and ultimately most players would use PvP chars if they go along that route.
Irrespective of their intentions, even if they grant PvE rewards through Balthazar's Factions, they either affect the economy (if the reward is too large) or have no significant affect in persuading PvE PLAYERS to PvP more (if the reward is too small, and since their Balthazar's Factions are used for PvE reward, no more incentive to build PvP chars to make use of them).
Garreth MacLeod
22-06-2006, 19:08
This topic seems to come up every 2-3 months. Yup, Balth's faction is just worthless if you don't roll PvP characters. But, as a PvE player, do I need some reward other than "fame" for playing PvP (and fame not even all PvP at that)? Probably not, although maybe that's why I don't PvP. There's not enough incentive.
Then again, I don't know that there's really enough incentive to PvE either but I play that.
PvE Rewards/incentive --> 15k or FoW armor, better weapons
PvP Rewards/incentive --> "fame", Balth's faction
in my opinion, whether the char is PvE or PvP .. the faction is earned in the same manner, and the ability to spend it or use the rewards should be as well.
PvE chars are punished for being PvE char in the current system. i could take a PvE char that i havent touched in months and use him specifically for PvP..and never be able to use those rewards.. it simply doesnt make sense
faction earned through the same activity should be useable in the same manner regardless of the characters origin
look past the bias toward PvP that this game creates and use some simply commen sense, it isnt that hard to do
DarkSpirit
22-06-2006, 19:18
This topic seems to come up every 2-3 months. Yup, Balth's faction is just worthless if you don't roll PvP characters. But, as a PvE player, do I need some reward other than "fame" for playing PvP (and fame not even all PvP at that)? Probably not, although maybe that's why I don't PvP. There's not enough incentive.
Then again, I don't know that there's really enough incentive to PvE either but I play that.
PvE Rewards/incentive --> 15k or FoW armor, better weapons
PvP Rewards/incentive --> "fame", Balth's faction
You are right, fame is not granted for all forms of PvP because even in PvP, there is an ultimate PvP and it is certainly not RA. It is tournament-style PvP that ANet is encouraging. RA is only regarded as a learning-ground to try out your new builds and techniques. If you take the Battle Isle tutorial you will see that trend too.
The optimal solution I can see is for ANet to implement PvP-only weapons and PvP-only skills to be granted for RP or PvP characters, only within the Battle Isles (similar to the Kuunavang skills in Factions). Maybe have a weapon and a skill NPC to grant RP/PvP chars with unlocked mods and skills. This way, RP chars taking part in PvP would not be at a disadvantage to regular PvP-only chars. Of course these PvP-skills (i.e. skills that you have unlocked on your account) and PvP-weapons (i.e. mods that you have unlocked on your account) that your RP char obtained from the PvP NPCs in Battle Isles would be removed once you leave the Battle Isles.
This solution would not only encourage RP chars to PvP, ensure a more balance play between PvE/PvP chars, and also not affect the economy. That would be one way of rewarding RP chars using their Balthazar's Factions and yet keep it within the PvP world.
fizzie jiggs
22-06-2006, 19:35
though this as been adressed before i think its a good idea. they have taken a small step however in making luxon/kurzik faction tradable for jade/amber (instant money). but i would definately like faction of balthazar to be tradable for pve goods too:grin:
themagicmoedee
22-06-2006, 21:57
It'd be nice if I got SOMETHING for pulling a PvE character into PvP. As it stands now, there aren't a lot of situations in which you wouldn't want to roll a brand new character for every outing you make into PvP. I'd actually go one further--PvE characters should have some slight advantages over the canned PvP characters you roll up--but either way, it'd certainly make my life a lot easier.
DarkSpirit
22-06-2006, 22:44
though this as been adressed before i think its a good idea. they have taken a small step however in making luxon/kurzik faction tradable for jade/amber (instant money). but i would definately like faction of balthazar to be tradable for pve goods too:grin:
Of course you would. You don't sound like a real PvP person. :rolleyes:
Someone who is really into PvP would prefer to use the Factions for PvP itself, not convert them.
allinuff
22-06-2006, 23:53
How would you interpret their intentions then? The fact remains that you can't use your Balthazar's Factions for PvE chars right now but only for PvP chars. I have always considered ANet to be encouraging (not force of course) players to try PvP (e.g. Observer mode, Battle Isles, etc.), and ultimately most players would use PvP chars if they go along that route.
I do not intepret as I'm in no place to do so. I can only guess.
If indeed they want to do this, they should understand PVE players are rather attached to their characters. If they can PVP with a PVE character they will. What is the problem then? Simple. The lack of tangible reward in the PVE sense.
I have a fully unlocked Prophecies account for like 6 months now, but I PVP for fun (with all PVE characters) so this has not been an issue for me. But, there are others with different mindsets.
Irrespective of their intentions, even if they grant PvE rewards through Balthazar's Factions, they either affect the economy (if the reward is too large) or have no significant affect in persuading PvE PLAYERS to PvP more (if the reward is too small, and since their Balthazar's Factions are used for PvE reward, no more incentive to build PvP chars to make use of them).
That's generalization. I'm sure if people are willing there will be a way and this is the right approach.
The issue here is not whether PVP characters are attractive or not. I look at it as the possibility of bringing PVE oriented people to PVP. PVP characters will always be attractive to the no-fuss-jump-in type of players, which as a matter of fact make quite a good portion of the community. PVE oriented players generally take the time to build and equip their alter-ego up to PVP standards.
So if in the end, the benefits of going this route nets nothing, where is the motivation to begin? Agreed some do it for fun like myself, but not everyone sees it that way. If they want to bring PVE closer, offering PVE rewards is one plus (as demonstrated by Factions).
Nothing ground-breaking, just perhaps an item crafter letting you choose all the attributes to a particular item at a significant Balthazar faction cost, for example (emphasis here to show that I'm not saying this is a must). Customise it too to avoid economic issues.
I still think that the entire concept of trying to entice one type of player to another type of gameplay is silly. If someone enjoys PvP, they will do it regardless of the rewards. If someone enjoys PvE, they will do it regardless of the rewards. If someone enjoys both, they will do it regardless of the rewards.
The converse is also true.
GADefence
23-06-2006, 00:43
I still think that the entire concept of trying to entice one type of player to another type of gameplay is silly. If someone enjoys PvP, they will do it regardless of the rewards. If someone enjoys PvE, they will do it regardless of the rewards. If someone enjoys both, they will do it regardless of the rewards.
The converse is also true.
From that point of view, RA, TA and GvG shouldn't give Balthazar faction. It intices PvP people to play 24/7 instead of unlocking some other way.
Of course you would. You don't sound like a real PvP person. :rolleyes:
Someone who is really into PvP would prefer to use the Factions for PvP itself, not convert them.
Pray tell. What would you do with Luxon/Kurzick faction, then? Every 5k donated to the Kurzicks nets a millimeter push on the border? The current faction turn in for guilds in alliances is merely to control towns, PvP being "moulded" into PvE here. I doubt the sided-faction wouldactually do any good for PvP players.
I support the idea of turning in Balt faction for Cap sigs and a -SP. The idea darkspirit proposed for PvE toons receiving PvP items/account unlocked items in PvP areas only is not too bad. Except for the fact that implementing it and possibly coding/whatever game people work with (Not much of a designer =p) would probably be mucho workload on top of their 6/month/per/game.
From that point of view, RA, TA and GvG shouldn't give Balthazar faction. It intices PvP people to play 24/7 instead of unlocking some other way.
Not true. Not allowing unlocks through PvP (which is exactly what faction does) would entice a PvP player to play a different form of gameplay (PvE) when they may not want to.
I think you misread my point.
DarkSpirit
23-06-2006, 01:40
Pray tell. What would you do with Luxon/Kurzick faction, then? Every 5k donated to the Kurzicks nets a millimeter push on the border? The current faction turn in for guilds in alliances is merely to control towns, PvP being "moulded" into PvE here. I doubt the sided-faction wouldactually do any good for PvP players.
We are talking about Balthazar's Factions here. Luxon/Kurzick's Factions are different and can be farmed by doing repeatable quests. It makes sense even if they dont apply to PvP chars but only to PvE chars.
I support the idea of turning in Balt faction for Cap sigs and a -SP. The idea darkspirit proposed for PvE toons receiving PvP items/account unlocked items in PvP areas only is not too bad. Except for the fact that implementing it and possibly coding/whatever game people work with (Not much of a designer =p) would probably be mucho workload on top of their 6/month/per/game.
Keep in mind that there are also RP chars that do not PvP at all (0 Balthazar's Faction since they hate PvP) and we dont want them to complain that ANet is giving RP chars who PvP an advantage over them. They should not be "punished" or left out just because they refuse to try PvP.
Therefore, PvP rewards should stay in the PvP realm, otherwise it may imbalance gameplay and economy in the PvE world. ANet can give recognition to chars who PvP but they, wisely, stopped there. They didn't give any other reward that may imbalance the economy.
If RP chars tried PvP a few times and dont enjoy it, then there is not much point bribing them to PvP further. If they just dont have that mindset to enjoy PvP, they would probably suck in it and bring down PvP quality anyway.
Sir Pwn Your Mother
23-06-2006, 08:18
If RP chars tried PvP a few times and dont enjoy it, then there is not much point bribing them to PvP further. If they just dont have that mindset to enjoy PvP, they would probably suck in it and bring down PvP quality anyway.
The point of a small reward would be to get more players to try it those first few times. Not to keep them doing it.
I wouldn't mind some sort of + for PvE characters doing PvP.
my final heavenz
23-06-2006, 10:13
ummmmm ??
balthazar factions is to unlock runes,upgrades and skills for your pvp only character
HoH reward is rank and deer/tiger/wolf/phoenix emote
GvG reward is fame and Tv
Ra and Ta reward is the experience you gain to GvG and HoH
that is all it should be and its a perfectly fine system at that.....
the only benefit of making your roleplaying *characters Pvp is to show off
15k/fow armor while pvp-ing.
bloodtide
23-06-2006, 11:05
Actually this would be a great idea. Particuarly as the economy goes to **** every other day. Now many of you are saying that this would lead to faction farming. Yes it would.
Perfect items are worth alot or at least a reasonable amount regardless of their skin. And if people can make them perfect this would mean lots of money for them.
For about a week. As with all farming trends once enough people have made their money of it their would be no problems. Everyone would be able to pick up a perfect item without having to splash out "100k plus ectoooos no n00bs".
This could both stabalise the economy and minimise the need for ebay gold.
Ravensclaw
23-06-2006, 12:45
I like this idea as it would, to an extent, bridge the gap between the PvE people and PvP people. It would definatly persuade me to do more PvP then I do now, which is not much :grin:
derBonobo
10-07-2006, 07:13
in my opinion, whether the char is PvE or PvP .. the faction is earned in the same manner, and the ability to spend it or use the rewards should be as well.
PvE chars are punished for being PvE char in the current system. i could take a PvE char that i havent touched in months and use him specifically for PvP..and never be able to use those rewards.. it simply doesnt make sense
faction earned through the same activity should be useable in the same manner regardless of the characters origin
look past the bias toward PvP that this game creates and use some simply commen sense, it isnt that hard to do
quoted for truth. at least some ppl understand the real problem.
i haven´t touched my PvE char for months either. i´d like to keep using it, but if i have to grind in order to be competitive in PvP - no thx. and since using a PvE char doesn´t make any sense, i don´t PvE at all anymore.
Being a PvPer in a Rank 500 Guild I can tell you that my ultimate goal is to have all my 5 PvE chars up to standart of GvG so I can use them for GvG and stop having to reroll every freaking day.
So, yes, Balthz should allow me to do more then simply unlock stuff.
I have no need for Balthazar faction at all, yet I have 10k. I am completely non-pvp so the faction remains unspent.
I think A.Net would do far better in getting pve players into pvp by offering a reason, Balthazar Faction Rewards is a good start. (Be it skill capturing, weapon or shield enhancing or even gold or items.)
KaliMagdalene
10-07-2006, 08:29
I have no need for Balthazar faction at all, yet I have 10k. I am completely non-pvp so the faction remains unspent.
You can spend it to unlock skills that would be available to your characters later in the game, allowing them to obtain them much earlier.
Admittedly, that's the only PVE use for them.
the ettins kiss
10-07-2006, 09:16
Truth be told I didnt read all the postst on the topic.
Although I would very mutch like for balts faction to be usable for PVE chars.
I dont think it would be mutch of an incentive for PVE players to do PVP.
Many people whom like PVE dont do PVP because.
PVE is relaxing where PVP is stressful (exciting from a pvp point of view)
They need to be in sufficiently active, quite a large guilds to do any GVG on a regular basis and also have people in their guild who like PVP.
Have to deal with RANK eletism in many arenas, especially HA.
The unsportsman like behaviour seen in alliance battles, where at times entire teams leave right after entering battle.
The poetic (ab)use of LEET language, seeming to be part of the pvp culture.
Alexia of Durham
10-07-2006, 14:16
And generally I find that PvP is undertaken by people who enjoy PvP. You shouldnt need Anet to bribe you to PvP... if you dont enjoy PvP, dont do it and dont complain about it and stick to PvE :)
Anet's policy is to entice PvE-players to become part of the PvP-scene ( whether they want to or not ) so this argument sure isn't a valid one.
[EDIT]:
Of course you would. You don't sound like a real PvP person.
Someone who is really into PvP would prefer to use the Factions for PvP itself, not convert them.
this a thoroughly elitist attitude ( " PvE-players are not "real " PvP players and can't possibly be as good as PvP -players " etc. ) , a bogus argument if there ever was one. It's also one of the main reasons for the gap between PvE and PvP players .There are still PvP-players who feel they are superior to PvE-players . As long as this doesn't change I'm afarid Anet can do whatever they want to try and bridge the gap ,it wont work....
I honestly do not care if they try to make PvE players into PvP or the other way around.
I am PVE and will always remain so, though I do happen to get faction every now and then and would like a way to spend it because right now I have no reason too.
Like I really care about unlocking PvP skills, I dont even have a PvP character and never will. PvE characters are a little neglected when it comes to Balthazar Faction.
I even still have my free unlocks from when I bought the special edition when it was released. :)
If it wasn't for Balth faction and the gladiator title, I wouldn't bother with Random Arenas. I play RA because there are rewards. Sure, it's enjoyable, but it works towards my long-term goals instead of my short-term goal of eating up a couple hours of my time.
That said, I agree that PvE characters should get rewards. Add skill purchasing, at the very least, to Balth priests. A player ought to be able to spend 1k faction to unlock the skill, and from then on spend 500 faction or whatever to teach their active player the skill, without having to consume a skill point. Honestly, I'm really not looking forward to playing a Warrior, Ranger, Necro, or Mesmer in PvE because I already have most of the skills unlocked. And if this was a means of unlocking all skills for a primary/secondary for a PvE, I'd be more willing to try these professions out in PvE.
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