View Full Version : Can rangers please get some beast mastery weapons?
terakhan
28-06-2006, 10:36
As it is, Rangers have two choices for weapon selection and attribute assignment:
- Rely on their secondary class attributes
(meaning R/W bunny thumpers, R/A discount assassins, etc)
- Use Bows
Nothing is wrong with bows as such, but like many people, I like to sometimes go pure primary for builds. What I mean by this is no points or skills in the secondary class at all.
As such, I am caught between shooting and letting my pet go up front, or doing pathetic damage with a melee weapon to join it.
I do NOT want some godly replacement for the other melee weapons. Just something in line with Beast Mastery, and perhaps some skills to go with it in later chapters.
The first idea that came to mind was weapons like the bagh nakh (spelling there is probably shot to hell) and the shuko. Also known as claws.
Pros (as compared to other weapons)
- Faster attack speed (and maybe not even that, since the ranger has Tigers Fury and its factions clone in Beast Mastery, as well as lightning reflexes)
- Ability to go melee without relying on your secondary class for damage
- The ability to create a 'brawler' type character (not a massive advantage, but some people have professed a desire for something on these lines)
- Gives the beastmasters a weapon choice that doesn't force the above dilemma.
Cons
- Lower max damage than even daggers
- As of yet, no skills that would use these weapons
- Limited selection outside of creating new varieties (only really a con for those status mongers who want the coolest skins for everything)
-Limited mod ability (not a lot to the idea except the claws and something to hold them to your hand)
I know it can be argued that beast mastery comes with its own weapon (the pet), but:
- This is the only 'breakable' weapon in the game
- You need to use one skill slot to even equip said weapon, and another if it 'breaks'.
Finally, this is just an idea. It has its drawbacks and advantages like any other idea. I have tried to approach it reasonably, trying to cover concerns that may arise from it as I went along. If enough people show interest for it, MAYBE we can hope for something in chapter 3 or later.
Welcome to the monthly topic rotation.
Yeah =( People have asked before for a BM focus or weapon for a while but no such luck =//
Naru Soulfire
David Holtzman
28-06-2006, 11:44
I know it can be argued that beast mastery comes with its own weapon (the pet), but:
- This is the only 'breakable' weapon in the game
- You need to use one skill slot to even equip said weapon, and another if it 'breaks'.
It's also the only weapon that can attack in conjunction wit another weapon you are using. Not to mention it sics people down at a constant 25% speed boost. All told, the pet line is fine in my opinion. Its use is pretty much limited only by the terrible pet command system. Were pet commands to be improved I rather think I would be arguing for a nerf rather than a buff.
Kieran Bloodfox
28-06-2006, 12:47
Yes please.
I'd like some Expertise weapons too. And some wilderness survival weapons or offhand foci.
Forgotten Legend
28-06-2006, 13:09
Enraged Lunge FTW!
This has been asked sooooo many times already. Personally, I would prefer having pet commands first.
It's also the only weapon that can attack in conjunction wit another weapon you are using. Not to mention it sics people down at a constant 25% speed boost. All told, the pet line is fine in my opinion. Its use is pretty much limited only by the terrible pet command system. Were pet commands to be improved I rather think I would be arguing for a nerf rather than a buff.
Not really as you also have spirits and minions if you look at it that way and both the necromancer and ritualist can attack effectively with a weapon linked to the attribute they use to invoke such spirit or minion.
That said Beast Mastery weapons have indeed been asked for for a long time now.
Findariel
28-06-2006, 14:01
Perhaps chapter 3 will introduce a melee beastmaster staff with some attack skills?
Anyway, a ranger weapon in another attribute than markmanship would indeed be nice.
rentauri
28-06-2006, 14:11
Asked many times, but never heard.
I agree with the idea weapons that use other attributes would be good but I doubt it is in the making.
Just give them a whip for a weapon and a chair for a focus item. Problem solved.
DevlinDracone
28-06-2006, 15:48
If the pet controls and AI was improved would be good enough for me. I've played as a beastmaster all through factions with henchies no problems at all. with beastmaster foci etc i would say were likely going to be over powered.
Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm just fine with using a staff. Not only do I get to attack from range, I also get 10 energy and 2 spots for whatever mods I want, be it more energy, defense, or health. It's just fine the way it is.
ultimastrike
28-06-2006, 15:52
Chapter 3:
Whip of Taming (primary hand)
Scoobie Snacks Box (Offhand)
rentauri
28-06-2006, 16:13
Oh man I was hoping for the classic whip and chair with a lion pet. CRACK "Attack, Simba Attack."
PenguinPunter
28-06-2006, 16:21
I second the whole whip thing. The chair bit would be hilarious but I doubt arenanet would go that far :D.
Oh, and they're called rangers, not closers. ;) Just kidding.
Seriously though, it would be nice for Rangers to have some sort of weapon alternative that is tied to the profession. Like crossbows, whips, perhaps hatchets of some kind (you know, the small throwable axes).
claws that you equip on your ranger and whose damage is based off your beast mastery attribute would really be cool.also being able to add preparationns like apply poison onto them would be awesome.
Beta Sprite
28-06-2006, 17:03
I would rather have a weapon based on Expertise, like a Crossbow. It wouldn't do as much damage, you COULD use Marksmanship skills with it, but you don't HAVE to touch the Marksmanship line.
This could open up possibilities for a true Wilderness Survival Ranger, too.
Griff of Luna
28-06-2006, 17:09
Yeah it would be nice to have ranger weapons for other attributes. If you think about it only rangers and assasins are limited to one type of attribute for weapons. Although I can't complain thus far I have been able to mingle marks with beast mastery. Also, I like the whip and hatchet ideas but claws would seem too much like the assasin's daggers.
Maybe there will be a meleeweapon especially for rangers in Chapter 3.
Whips that require Beast Mastery.
rentauri
28-06-2006, 17:15
I second the whole whip thing. The chair bit would be hilarious but I doubt arenanet would go that far :D.
Remember these are the people who brought you the candy canes of death penatly removal so maybe...
Garreth MacLeod
28-06-2006, 17:33
I've been wanting weapons that fit the other ranger attributes for many months now.
Yeah it would be nice to have ranger weapons for other attributes. If you think about it only rangers and assasins are limited to one type of attribute for weapons.
And of all of the GW classes, which ones actually do damage with weapons? Warriors, Assassins, and Rangers. The rest really don't count. So effectively, the warrior, who is a master of weapons, has different attribute lines. Both of the others are specialists.
Nearly everything a warrior does involves a weapon. Thus, it makes sense they have a wide variety.
Rangers and Assassins both have many abilities that do not focus around their weapon, thus it's not really necessary for them to have weapons for every attribute (in fact, the one line of which the abilities are focused around that attribute for each class, is the one with a linked attribute for weapons).
fizzie jiggs
28-06-2006, 17:46
/signed
i have been pleading for a BM require weapon for months, it just doesnt seem like its gunna happen. im not even asking for a new weapon type i just want bows that require beastmastery so i dont hafta raise an extra attribute to wield a weapon.
EDIT: the claw thing sounds more like an assasin weapon, and its not like they have any more weapon choices than rangers do.:undecided:
Scutilla
28-06-2006, 18:14
I have always wondered why six other classes have weapons or offhands for every attribute, but rangers and assassins are forced to use marksmanship and dagger mastery.
It doesn't bug me too much, since I just use my cheap req 8 bow when playing with my pet, or switch to my Spiritbinder when I'm completely beastmaster/healer for the extra energy. But still, such a weapon would be kinda neat. Heck, I'd even settle for a Bow Grip of Beast Mastery.
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7281/beastmaster7wn.th.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beastmaster7wn.jpg)
an artist's conception?
waveclaw
28-06-2006, 18:39
Just give them a whip for a weapon and a chair for a focus item. Problem solved.
Have you been to a PetSmart store? There are whole isles dedicated to pet 'training' toys like feathers on a stick, rawhide bones on leashes and bells.
Heck, I'd just like to play fetch with my pet spider and a Trainers (+5% pet attack speed) Frisbee out in the planes of North Kryta. Or let a pet bear loose in the S. Shiverpeaks while wealding a Feathered Tickler of Dwarfslaying (+% dmg to Drwafs.)
Yeah, a feather on string on a stick is a bit silly. But then so is a Pumpkin headed necro with a gingerbread sheild commanding her minions to march by genuflicting with a vaguly phallic pink (water wand + blue/red dye) wand.
Have you been to a PetSmart store? There are whole isles dedicated to pet 'training' toys like feathers on a stick, rawhide bones on leashes and bells.
And thus the reason we need a clicker in game to train our pets in game.
Me To Spider: "Go Kill and leave no survivors"
Spider goes to attack. *click* *click*
Party members look at me strange...
Me: "what? how else is he gonna know he's killing the right guys?!?"
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7281/beastmaster7wn.th.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beastmaster7wn.jpg)
an artist's conception?
LOL :laugh:
MasterNightfall
28-06-2006, 19:31
Pets already do a lot of damage at 16 beastmastery, with the proper elites.
Making the ranger do an additional full damage with no attribute investment... Bleh.
rentauri
28-06-2006, 20:14
The picture is great.
The way I see it is that the pet is suppose to be the 'weapon' or choice for the BM ranger. The problem comes to be with the limited control that we see in the pet, as it has be mentioned. If we could control the pet better, turn it into a true weapon then I would have no problems with it. I don't see that happening though, just like I don't see the hechie AI improving greatly.
tarathial
28-06-2006, 20:18
This has been asked sooooo many times already. Personally, I would prefer having pet commands first.
this is the first time i've heard it, but i do like the idea of better pet commands over a weapon. But on the other hand huge attachable claws would be really cool :D
waynerbwork
28-06-2006, 21:43
I have always wanted Expertise based dual wielded daggers like the Assassins
got with skills like Flashing Blades to have an all Expertise build, or at least be
able to defend myself in close quarters and not be stuck with always using a bow.
Granted they would have to fix the inventory problem as I would end up with
a great pile of daggers to stack up next to my horde of bows.:grin:
Frangeo Munda
28-06-2006, 22:27
I know it can be argued that beast mastery comes with its own weapon (the pet), but:
- This is the only 'breakable' weapon in the game
- You need to use one skill slot to even equip said weapon, and another if it 'breaks'.
I broke my Wookie!
I don't see that Beast Mastery weapons would be that great. The point of a beast generally is so that it can take damage while you sit back and enjoy the show. Hmmm.
I'm wielding a Doggy Bowl of Fortitude!
The DPS of a dire pet is slightly better than having a permanent Conjure Phantasm on your targeted opponent. AND you can add damage with pet attacks. Top this off with the ability to add damage yourself (by bow, wand, or whatever... I've seen folks with Illusionary Weaponry and pets before), and you have a potential game-breaker. The stringent checks and balances along with poor AI have prevented Beast Masters from dominating... if you added a weapon that required Beast Mastery as its required attribute, you'd essentially be getting two weapons for the price of one attribute (and one skill slot, Charm Animal, of course). I can't see how this could be balanced in any way unless the weapon was so pitiful that a wand with no requirements would beat its damage.
Kieran Bloodfox
29-06-2006, 02:43
Rangers and Assassins both have many abilities that do not focus around their weapon, thus it's not really necessary for them to have weapons for every attribute (in fact, the one line of which the abilities are focused around that attribute for each class, is the one with a linked attribute for weapons).
I'm not sure I agree with that completely. There are quite a few bow attack skills in the Expertise line. I like some of them better than the marksmanshp ones, and prefer to use them. It would be nice if I thus had the option to use an Expertise Req bow with a couple Expertise bow attacks and defensive skills, and then either some WS or BM.
I'd like to have the same options I have with my other characters.
I'd also be happy if they didn't give us Expertise req Bows or BM req weapons but simply added in some bow strings and bow grips tied to those attributes, and WS too.
For example, my necromancer can get wands, foci, staves and staff mods that req and are tied to each of her four attributes. So can my ele. My warrior can get items tied to all 5 of his attributes. So can my monk etc etc etc. This allows greater versatility in making builds and selecting items to complement my skill selections.
Where is the Bow-grip of +1 Expertise/Beastmastery/Wilderness Survival X% chance?
Where is the bow-grip or offhand item with a chance to half skill use time or fast recharge or skill for wilderness survival or expertise? I wouldn't want to see that one for the Marksmanship Line though, unless they added a similar one for warriors tied to their weapon attributes. Though warriors DO have offhand items tied to both Strength and Tactics, with some nice special abilities/enhancements... while rangers and assassins don't.
I also do not agree at all that allowing a beast master/wilderness survival/expertise req bow or other weapon would make beastmasters overpowered.
As it is now, you can either be a dedicated beast master using a wand or staff or bow you don't meet the req for, thus doing only 1-10 dmg per hit yourself, or you put points into marksmanship to do normal damage (without any attack skills to increase it mind you) and thus lessen the effectiveness of your BM/WS skills (which compliment each other well).
If a ranger with 16 BM/12 WS or EX had a bow or other weapon (like a single handed shortbow/spell range weapon with comparible damage to a wand or staff) it would not make them 'overpowered' at all. At best, it would put us nearly on par with the damage output potential of certain types of Necromancers. Only with less ability to do damage to multiple targets at once. If you're not using Marksmanship anymore, you won't have Barrage available for your elite slot...
Kieran Bloodfox
29-06-2006, 02:52
The DPS of a dire pet is slightly better than having a permanent Conjure Phantasm on your targeted opponent. AND you can add damage with pet attacks. Top this off with the ability to add damage yourself (by bow, wand, or whatever... I've seen folks with Illusionary Weaponry and pets before), and you have a potential game-breaker.
Except that if you're using a staff or wand that you don't meet the requirement for (And what 'dedicated' beast master will meet the req for a wand or staff meant for another class?) you will not be doing full damage. You'll average around 6 dmg per shot instead of around 16. Half the normal damage at best, possibly less, depending on the 'fails to meet req' dmg range of your particular weapon. If you're using a secondary profession attribute or marksmanship to meet the wep req or do weapon attacks with it, then you aren't really a 'dedicated' beast master, and very likely your pet will not be doing maximum damage.
The stringent checks and balances along with poor AI have prevented Beast Masters from dominating... if you added a weapon that required Beast Mastery as its required attribute, you'd essentially be getting two weapons for the price of one attribute (and one skill slot, Charm Animal, of course). I can't see how this could be balanced in any way unless the weapon was so pitiful that a wand with no requirements would beat its damage.
If you're only using one skill slot for BM, Charm Animal, then you aren't a dedicated beast master and your pet is doing nowhere near the damage it would be doing if you had 5 slots devoted to beast mastery. So I'm not sure I understand what you mean there at all.
Factor in that pets are NOT actually like other weapons due to their lousy controls and aggro-AI (A pet is not-attacking far more often than an NPC
henchman or necromancer minion is)...
Goldfish God
29-06-2006, 03:22
I'll say this again, staff/wand+foci is the answer. Real world animal-herders have staffs (obviously not magical ones, just general animal-prodding ones). Since BM's main weapon is a pet (and skills which function via it), much like Elementalists' main weapon are their spells, the equipment items are not the main weapon, but are there to provide additional affects (more energy, +1:20% etc) that boost skill usage and efficiency. Plus, no spellcasters have "wand attacks" like there're "sword/bow/hammer/axe attacks".
That's if u were going to give BM weapons in the first place.
I can think of several ways to maximize a build for damage using a pet and a weapon... in fact, one of them is quite popular right now (The Bunny Thumper). Even a dedicated beastmaster can assign enough points to a secondary attribute to do maximum damage with wands (there are 11-22 req. 9 and below wands out there, and wand damage is based on level rather than attribute). I've personally played a Conjure Lightning Aeromancer/Beastmaster that dealt an obscene amount of damage (Enraged Lunge + Tiger's Fury + Wand damage modified by Conjure). Dedicated Beastmasters are fun and quite viable (ask the folks in the Ranger forum who solo Sand Wurms), but a balanced Beastmaster has great potential to be overpowered as it stands right now, without a Beast Mastery weapon to add to the pain. Being able to stack attributes AND have two weapons? Where do I sign up?.
Also, there are many attributes that don't have an associated requirement for a weapon. Protection Prayers, Healing Prayers, Energy Storage, Inspiration Magic, just to name a few (and these are the spellcaster examples).
Alexia of Durham
29-06-2006, 04:20
I'll say this again, staff/wand+foci is the answer. Real world animal-herders have staffs (obviously not magical ones, just general animal-prodding ones). Since BM's main weapon is a pet (and skills which function via it), much like Elementalists' main weapon are their spells, the equipment items are not the main weapon, but are there to provide additional affects (more energy, +1:20% etc) that boost skill usage and efficiency. Plus, no spellcasters have "wand attacks" like there're "sword/bow/hammer/axe attacks".
yes,but there are no wands or staffs giving those bonuses to rangers . We use staffs which
- give crappy damage ( not a big deal )
- have bonuses for SPELLS ,not skills ( the only ones of value is the 20% enchantment mod, insightful and a fortitude mod for beastmasters or trappers) .
I agree with the premise those rangers wouldn't be overpowered . In order to have a "true" BM-build or a "true" trapping build you'd put 16 in either attribute and nearly always zilch in markmanship.
Kieran Bloodfox
29-06-2006, 08:02
Also, there are many attributes that don't have an associated requirement for a weapon. Protection Prayers, Healing Prayers, Energy Storage, Inspiration Magic, just to name a few (and these are the spellcaster examples).
I think there should be. My personal opinion, as I said in previous threads on this topic, is that in addition to improving the ranger weapon and item choices, they should also add weapons based on the other attributes that lack them (the ones you mentioned above).
And to be fair, those classes don't have all of their weapons tied to a SINGLE attribute the way ranger (and assassin?) weapons do. Not EVERY monk wand and staff is req Smiting, for example. Mesmers aren't forced to always have points in Illusion in order to meet their weapons' requirements, are they?
Also, while there are not weapons based on every attribute, there ARE many items that require healing, protection, energy storage and inspiration, they're just offhand items as opposed to weapons. And I actually do have a wand that requires Energy Storage. They are uncommon, but they do exist.
I've not found a protection prayers required wand or staff before (but there are plenty that have mods that enchance protection prayers)... I figured the reason monk wands/staves tie into either Smiting or Divine Favour, is that both a Healing Monk and a Protection Monk will have attribute points in Divine Favour. And they also have the option to go without divine favour by picking up a Smiting required weapon.
I agree a staff or preferably a bow with a req in BM would be usefull, not overpowered and it should naturallly exist. the same goes for wilderniss survival imo.
Pets already do a lot of damage at 16 beastmastery, with the proper elites.
Making the ranger do an additional full damage with no attribute investment... Bleh.
What you have to look at is not the damage caused by skills on top of the actual pet as that is like saying that elementalist shouldn't get a weapon for an attribute due to them having spells ...
The base damage of a pet at level 16 in beast mastery has to be considered on its own and compared to a minion or spirit with the same level in the related attribute. If you do that you'll find out they are equivalent yet those two classes get weapons for their attributes where the ranger doesn't.
Skills boosting the damage of the pet have to be compared to equivalent spells dealing damage on their own or warrior/assassin/ranger skills boosting the damage of weapons or hits in most case such a comparison will show similar boosts (if for some of those skills it is not the case the skill needs to be toned down)
Skills boosting the health or regeneration of the pet need to be compared to skills boosting the health of minions taking into account the fact minions can be replaced while the pet is ressed with the related death penalty. Once again if you do so the difference is not significant to place the pet as having more effective means of being kept alive.
As a whole I don't believe there is any valid argument towards having no weapons related to beast mastery because the pet has never proven to be more efficient than assorted spirits and minions for the same attribute value.
Fay Vert
29-06-2006, 11:39
Why does ANet persist in spamming more flipping bow types at us. Not all rangers run with a bow build. We are talking pure ranger builds here and only one attribute line is acknowledged in equipment. Judgeing by recent updates, and skills added in factions. ANet seem to have twigged on that BM was a terrible line to invest in, so boosted it. Now give us the equipment for it please. Even if it's just a staff. But also add something for Exp and WS line too. Most rangers have Running and Trapping builds. It's embarrasing having to use an Ele staff !!!
Vlekje Mai
29-06-2006, 11:48
/ signed
and add on a desire for weapons not requiring daggermastery for the assassin as well. Shouldn't every prof have multiple choices for weapons?
The base damage of a pet at level 16 in beast mastery has to be considered on its own and compared to a minion or spirit with the same level in the related attribute.
Where did you find that info? I've looked around a bit, but nowhere was there any mention of how much these bone-beasts do.
Skills boosting the damage of the pet have to be compared to equivalent spells dealing damage on their own or warrior/assassin/ranger skills boosting the damage of weapons or hits ...
30-ish bonus damage on a 5E skill is not bad, I think, there's one that deals up to 80 damage, for 5E and some of them heal either pet or pc. Glossing over petskills earlier I noticed they tend to have a relatively low energy cost.
Skills boosting the health or regeneration of the pet need to be compared to skills boosting the health of minions taking into account the fact minions can be replaced while the pet is ressed with the related death penalty. Once again if you do so the difference is not significant to place the pet as having more effective means of being kept alive.
Minions will die eventually, at least afaik they have an inherent degen that increases with their age - but I am no minion master - while pets don't degen, when not in combat they selfheal. This has consequences far beyond hitpoints, while most classes fare well on a little rest now and then to replenish hp and energy, the minion army will need to advance as fast as possible.
... the pet has never proven to be more efficient than assorted spirits and minions for the same attribute value.
Nor the other way around, but perhaps you'd care to place a bet on the outcome of a 1-on-1 pet vs. minion?
Fay Vert
29-06-2006, 15:03
The damage that pets already do or what you want them to do has got nothing to do with this topic, it's irrelevent, we are talking about suitable equipment for BM (or other attribute lines). Why do I currently use an Ele staff when I am running a beastmaster or trapper build? Or Warrior equipment when I am running with R/Mo? It's because ANet only give rangers a bow and they are all tied to useless (for these builds) marksmanship.
Where did you find that info? I've looked around a bit, but nowhere was there any mention of how much these bone-beasts do.
Observation, take a pet at level x in BM check his damage, do the same for a minion at level x in death (average over the different types) and again the same for one of the damage spirits. Damage rate as well as value is similar enough.
30-ish bonus damage on a 5E skill is not bad, I think, there's one that deals up to 80 damage, for 5E and some of them heal either pet or pc. Glossing over petskills earlier I noticed they tend to have a relatively low energy cost.
they do indeed have mostly low costs however bonusses to damage never go over 30 and there is no beast mastery skill that adds 80 damage. All in all I'm sure that if you compared the warrior's bar to the beast mastery's one you'd find damage boost to be similar
Minions will die eventually, at least afaik they have an inherent degen that increases with their age - but I am no minion master - while pets don't degen, when not in combat they selfheal. This has consequences far beyond hitpoints, while most classes fare well on a little rest now and then to replenish hp and energy, the minion army will need to advance as fast as possible.
Yes minions will die but at 16 death magic you can have quite a few of them (10 i believe) with only two skill slots equipped (same as for a pet) and a flesh golem for example can be regenerated from himself once death which means that virtually you can almost consider him as a level 25 pet.
Nor the other way around, but perhaps you'd care to place a bet on the outcome of a 1-on-1 pet vs. minion?
In my opinion this is what a fight pet vs minion would give as result (I'd gladly check it some time) :
pet vs single minion
at level 16 BM and level 16 death no intervention from player in the fight
all level 18 minions : pet wins, the degen of the minion as well as the level advantage of the pet makes this a no brainer, a level 18 minion was also never designed to fight solo
level 25 flesh golem : pet loses, even with the degen fighting against the golem the pet has a disadvantage against a higher level opponent he won't be able to make for
same condition with intervention of player in the fight skills only
all level 18 minions : close wins and losses depending on what skills were used, the minion's degen can be compensated for a time, the necro's skills are more efficient to counter the pet, if the necro stacks his skills slightly towards the curses department the pet won't stand a chance.
level 25 flesh golem : golem wins
same condition with intervention of player no boundaries
pet loses : the added damage from the necro's weapon at 16 death as well as the inherent advantages given by it will make it so that the fight will turn in favor of the minion every single time.
Observation, take a pet at level x in BM check his damage, do the same for a minion at level x in death (average over the different types) and again the same for one of the damage spirits. Damage rate as well as value is similar enough.
Enough observatons to yield relations between level and damage and attribute level and damage? Real, repeatable observations with reasonable number of samples, or just some observations in the field? It would make sense, though, if base damage followed the regular 3*CL and attackbase the 5*attribute rules.
they do indeed have mostly low costs however bonusses to damage never go over 30 and there is no beast mastery skill that adds 80 damage. All in all I'm sure that if you compared the warrior's bar to the beast mastery's one you'd find damage boost to be similar
There is, and it's called Enraged Lunge (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Enraged_Lunge).
I have yet to play a Warrior, but I assume from your words that he'd have ~30 bonus skills?
Yes minions will die but at 16 death magic you can have quite a few of them (10 i believe) with only two skill slots equipped (same as for a pet) and a flesh golem for example can be regenerated from himself once death which means that virtually you can almost consider him as a level 25 pet.
Ok, once you find a corpse, you have a Flesh Golem. Takes the elite slot though.
pet vs single minion
at level 16 BM and level 16 death no intervention from player in the fight
Aha, no no, the ability to intervene or even just strengthen your pet, is one of the things that seperate the beastmaster from a minionmaster. Comfort, Call of Protection and the individual attack skills are part of the deal.
If you want to throw in curses directly against the pet, then that is Necromancer against pet and no longer Golem vs. Pet. If you can buff the Minion, or make it do things, fine. Are there similar skills for minions?
Otherwise it's PvP ... and the MM would need a corpse ... and the beastmaster might take Necrotic Traversal along :P
Alexia of Durham
29-06-2006, 18:29
I agree a staff or preferably a bow with a req in BM would be usefull, not overpowered and it should naturallly exist. the same goes for wilderniss survival imo.
Also : to avoid those weapons to be overpowered you can make the requirement stiff - maybe only requirements which would require rune ?
That would make those weapons useless for anything but pure BM or trapper-builds.
Goldfish God
29-06-2006, 20:27
yes,but there are no wands or staffs giving those bonuses to rangers . We use staffs which
- give crappy damage ( not a big deal )
- have bonuses for SPELLS ,not skills ( the only ones of value is the 20% enchantment mod, insightful and a fortitude mod for beastmasters or trappers) .
In a suggestion thread about giving BMs weapons did u really think I wasn't suggesting new BM-req specific wands/staffs/foci?
No, I wasn't just saying to use pre-existing staff/wands/foci for other inaccesible attributes, and certainly nothing specific to forced use of the current spell-only modifiers.
Super Kenny
29-06-2006, 20:55
Yup, pet commands first. We need more control of these beasts!
Shiva Chaos
29-06-2006, 21:26
beast masters need a whip!
Yes, a whip, that would be neat.
And a disarm feat, ehm ... skill ...
Oh no, wait, that's another system.
Fay Vert
29-06-2006, 22:41
No no no no no! to the damned whip!!!!
I love my pet, I don't want a whip and I don't want to be some half arsed wannabe Indiana Jones circus performer.
I'm a ranger goddammit!!!!
terakhan
29-06-2006, 23:45
Worse, we will have a crap load of Simon Belmont wannabes.
I'm just wondering how the thread got hijacked by a discussion of pets vs minions.
mmealman
30-06-2006, 01:05
The DPS of a dire pet is slightly better than having a permanent Conjure Phantasm on your targeted opponent. AND you can add damage with pet attacks. Top this off with the ability to add damage yourself (by bow, wand, or whatever... I've seen folks with Illusionary Weaponry and pets before), and you have a potential game-breaker.
Totally untrue. Conjure Phantasm is 1 skill slot, the pet takes 1 skill slot. The conjure can be dispelled, the pet can be evaded, blocked, blinded or just killed. Plus it has to reach your target and is hard to control.
Yes you have other skills to add on top of the pet, but then a mesmer has other spells to add on top of Conjure Phantasm and they're not limited to casting them on the person they put conjure phantasm on.
Then on top of that, the mesmer also gets to use a wand or staff at full strength.
BMs couldn't be given full strength bows, but there's no reason they couldn't be given something comparable to wands and staves.
Alexia of Durham
30-06-2006, 03:56
I love my pet, I don't want a whip and I don't want to be some half arsed wannabe Indiana Jones circus performer.
I'm a ranger goddammit!!!!
totally agreed :)
Shoitaan
30-06-2006, 04:10
no whip? how about a hoola-hoop for your pet to jump through then.. you can use your ranger animal empathy to make him do it and it uhh... has a chance to +1 beastmastery because.. the pet will be able to do tricks so its obviously higher level... or something...
...
*takes hat and leaves thread*
Hiya,
No no no no no! to the damned whip!!!!
I love my pet, I don't want a whip and I don't want to be some half arsed wannabe Indiana Jones circus performer.
I'm a ranger goddammit!!!!
I would agree.
What am I doing here?
I would like to see a BM weapon as well. Sure I'm an ele, but I have a pet and ele/pet build. I would like to have something that would help that. It's not a uber build or anything, it's fun (for me) at times. A weapon that could help me and maybe helped a ranger BM more, that would be great. I'm not a PvP, fan but I'm thinking something could be worked out that has "balance".
A staff I think works well, not just from a ele view, but if you're out in the woods a staff is easier to craft than a sword. Maybe just effective mods and a collectors staff with BM req's is needed. I'm thinking of it as a option for "other" builds, it doesn't have to have the same effectivness as a ranger with a bow.
As to other things we need first? yes, and we all have a different set of lists, it doesn't mean we can't discuss it.
The above quote? I was really thinking how much gold I can make dancing with a whip. :laughing:
Maina
Totally untrue. Conjure Phantasm is 1 skill slot, the pet takes 1 skill slot. The conjure can be dispelled, the pet can be evaded, blocked, blinded or just killed. Plus it has to reach your target and is hard to control.
Yes you have other skills to add on top of the pet, but then a mesmer has other spells to add on top of Conjure Phantasm and they're not limited to casting them on the person they put conjure phantasm on.In no way did I state that the two were equal. I was stating that the comparative raw DPS is similar to having a permanent Conjure Phantasm. Obviously, armor and skill mitigation factors, as well as Energy costs and other considerations, need to be taken into account for a true analysis, but against a typical target, your Pet will be dealing quite a bit of damage. This is without the addition of typical Beast Mastery skills... add in the pet attacks, damage mitigation, and additional damage from you, and you can create a balanced potent combination.
Totally untrue. Conjure Phantasm is 1 skill slot, the pet takes 1 skill slot. The conjure can be dispelled, the pet can be evaded, blocked, blinded or just killed. Plus it has to reach your target and is hard to control.
Yes you have other skills to add on top of the pet, but then a mesmer has other spells to add on top of Conjure Phantasm and they're not limited to casting them on the person they put conjure phantasm on.
Then on top of that, the mesmer also gets to use a wand or staff at full strength.
BMs couldn't be given full strength bows, but there's no reason they couldn't be given something comparable to wands and staves.
Well you're not really making a fair comparison.
Let's try the other view. Conjure Phatasm cost energy. Conjare phatasm being a skill spell can be black out, interupted and hex-breaker, etc
Charm animal takes no energy. Can still be used when blacked out, interupted etc.
YOu don't really need beast mastery point to equip charm animal and make it effective. You do for conjure phatasm. This mean that I can put all my attributes into marksman and still get the same DPS out from my pet. (Correct me if I am wrong)
Charm animal gives additional corpse so IWAY, MM etc can be happy.
YOu don't really need beast mastery point to equip charm animal and make it effective. You do for conjure phatasm. This mean that I can put all my attributes into marksman and still get the same DPS out from my pet. (Correct me if I am wrong)
Afaik, points in the beatmastery attribute have the same effect as in other weapon lines, +8 points doubles the damage, from 0-12 means about 3 times more damage.
Enough observatons to yield relations between level and damage and attribute level and damage? Real, repeatable observations with reasonable number of samples, or just some observations in the field? It would make sense, though, if base damage followed the regular 3*CL and attackbase the 5*attribute rules.
About 120 hours of gameplay as a beastmaster and the same as a minion master most of it spent in the max level areas against the same mobs on both sides. Against dwarven caster for example at level 13 in death mastery minions deal on average about 14 damage while my pet dealt on average something like 16 damage (when no skill came up to boost him).
There is, and it's called Enraged Lunge (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Enraged_Lunge).
The boost per recharging skill, other classes have the same kind of skill so you can't really say its an advantage reserved to the beast master
I have yet to play a Warrior, but I assume from your words that he'd have ~30 bonus skills?
Depending on the weapon and skill you are using some of them do, but we both know +30 is not something you'll find on all beast mastery skills even at 16 in beast mastery so it is indeed something that can be compared.
Ok, once you find a corpse, you have a Flesh Golem. Takes the elite slot though.
yes it does you get a few added levels for it though and I'm sure if an elite skill came up allowing you a boost of 5 to your pet's level most rangers would take it with them immediatly.
Aha, no no, the ability to intervene or even just strengthen your pet, is one of the things that seperate the beastmaster from a minionmaster. Comfort, Call of Protection and the individual attack skills are part of the deal.
If you want to throw in curses directly against the pet, then that is Necromancer against pet and no longer Golem vs. Pet. If you can buff the Minion, or make it do things, fine. Are there similar skills for minions?
Otherwise it's PvP ... and the MM would need a corpse ... and the beastmaster might take Necrotic Traversal along :P
I don't agree, this is a skill for skill deal, if the ranger equips skills in his bar to aid his pet then the necro is allowed to equip skills in his bar to aid his minion and to cast them on the pet, and yes the ranger is allowed to have necro skills with him although in the setup I limited the ranger to ranger skills and the necro to necromancer skills. Besides if you want a fair battle between pet and minion it was my option number one that counted pet and minion invoked and squaring it of without skills coming in to spoil the result.
I still believe having a beastmaster 11-22 weapon would not turn the ranger in somekind of overpowered deal that said I'm pretty sure that if ever ANet decided to do so they'd try it up on their own servers first to check the results.
Der Dokter
30-06-2006, 20:17
A staff-class "Sheperd's Crook" would fit BM here.
This would allow heads and wrapping mods, such as BM+1 20%, Energy +5.
(Excellent for trappers too, eh?)
mmealman
01-07-2006, 01:07
Well you're not really making a fair comparison.
Let's try the other view. Conjure Phatasm cost energy. Conjare phatasm being a skill spell can be black out, interupted and hex-breaker, etc
Charm animal takes no energy. Can still be used when blacked out, interupted etc.
YOu don't really need beast mastery point to equip charm animal and make it effective. You do for conjure phatasm. This mean that I can put all my attributes into marksman and still get the same DPS out from my pet. (Correct me if I am wrong)
Charm animal gives additional corpse so IWAY, MM etc can be happy.
Yes conjure costs energy where a pet doesn't, but you can put conjures on multiple targets at the same time. You can't with a pet. Also a pet doesn't kick in until it reaches the target. Conjure happens as soon as you cast it.
Conjure can be blackouted, interrupted, etc. Pet's can be blinded, dodged, evaded, snared or simply killed. So it's pretty equal here.
Pet DPS is directly linked to the BM attribute.
An assassin is a much more effective corpse supply for MM's :laugh:
beast mastery and wilderness survival would be nice to have on the rangers. They are the only class in the game that has only 1 weapon with 1 weapon requirement.
I don't agree, this is a skill for skill deal, if the ranger equips skills in his bar to aid his pet then the necro is allowed to equip skills in his bar to aid his minion and to cast them on the pet,
On, or to aid the minion (there are 'heals' for minions), not to damage the pet directly, then you'd be turning it into MinionMaster vs. Pet.
I got the impression from the skills that a pet is intended as a more persistent aid then the minions.
But this thread was, indeed, about a beastmatery weapon:
I still believe having a beastmaster 11-22 weapon would not turn the ranger in somekind of overpowered deal that said I'm pretty sure that if ever ANet decided to do so they'd try it up on their own servers first to check the results.
Not that I would mind getting a BM-weapon ... but we would be getting two weapons for one attribute and I think that is a bit overdone. What other class gets 15-20 DPS (or more?) without using any skills at all?
It's not hard to get your pet and your bow on efficient levels, more then 12 points in a weapon attribute becomes inefficient. The increase from 10 to 12 alone requires almost the same as from 0-8.
Not that I would mind getting a BM-weapon ... but we would be getting two weapons for one attribute
There's a difference though:All the other 1 weapon per attribute weapons like swords, or axes, or bows, don't require the use of a skill slot to even EQUIP the weapon, much less require a SECOND skillslot to make sure the "weapon" stays alive. If I am an axe warrior, I do not have to bring skills like "Equip Axe" and "Repair Axe" in order to use the axe and keep it around. If I am taking up 2 skill slots just to make sure I can use my "weapon's" NORMAL attack, I think it's okay to have a little extra DPS.
Yeah, true, but Charm Animal is a very Powerful skill which does decent damage (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=752788&postcount=3) every 2 seconds without costing any energy at all. So yeah, you need an extra skill to maintain it.
As if you had "Wield Additional Axe" and "Repair Additional Axe"
MasterNightfall
04-07-2006, 19:36
There's a difference though:All the other 1 weapon per attribute weapons like swords, or axes, or bows, don't require the use of a skill slot to even EQUIP the weapon, much less require a SECOND skillslot to make sure the "weapon" stays alive. If I am an axe warrior, I do not have to bring skills like "Equip Axe" and "Repair Axe" in order to use the axe and keep it around. If I am taking up 2 skill slots just to make sure I can use my "weapon's" NORMAL attack, I think it's okay to have a little extra DPS.
However, I have yet to see this 'Brutal Axe Blow' skill which adds up to +80 damage with a 5 second cooldown to your attacks.
Leobeater
04-07-2006, 20:01
my friend told me there's a green whip but he probably lying
Valium in a Hallway
04-07-2006, 20:23
my friend told me there's a green whip but he probably lying
you hit the nail right on the head!
It would be nice to see different weapons for ranger, even a tiny little made of wood and rope dagger would be nice :)
http://img276.imageshack.us/img276/2971/indy8au.jpg
Kyrion Hellcat
04-07-2006, 20:50
Yeah, true, but Charm Animal is a very Powerful skill which does decent damage (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=752788&postcount=3) every 2 seconds without costing any energy at all. So yeah, you need an extra skill to maintain it.
As if you had "Wield Additional Axe" and "Repair Additional Axe"
Ok, and If you also give me the Additional attribute points necessary to raise the 'Additional Axe' attribute, then, things will be perfect.
Because... you know? The Additional Axe doesn't come for free... Unless you want an 'Additional Axe' that does 1-2 damage per hit... since the damage (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=752788&postcount=3) chart displays the damage at BM 12... not at BM zero.
So unless you have Additional attribute points to spare, you have to remove points from your 'normal' Axe Mastery, or from Strenght.... or from Tactics... or from all of them...
-------
PD: Actually, that photo made my day...
So unless you have Additional attribute points to spare, you have to remove points from your 'normal' Axe Mastery, or from Strenght.... or from Tactics... or from all of them...
Well, maybe you might consider moving away from the religous believe that thou shalt have 16 in a (weapon) attribute, or nothing at all. But it's not hard to get three attribs to a very usefull 12 or higher.
terakhan
24-07-2006, 09:34
Beast vs Minion, at maximum attributes, can be closer to 10vs1 against the beast, if they are allowed to go for broke with it. The Minion side also has staves and wands and other items that cause the associated skills to charge faster.
Regarding mods, the 20% spell recharge and casting mods, as well as the enchanting mods, don't really even affect the ranger itself. The ranger doesn't have spells or enchantments.
As for the weapon, I don't think a staff is the answer, even if a stick is easy to come by. One, it doesn't really go with the beast aspect (unless you throw it and the pet brings it back), and we already have twice as many, if not more, types of staves as we do bows.
All I would like is a weapon I can go full beast mastery with, fighting along side my pet instead of in the back rows.
We have Symbiotic Bond, Predatory Bond, Run as One, and Heal as One, all as skills pushing the symbiotic relationship between rangers and their pets.
It doesn't feel symbiotic to have the pet standing up front getting its butt handed to it, while having arrows whipping past its ears from its partner.
Thats why I recommended claws as a weapon type. They are close range, not very strong so the DPS won't go much higher than a bow/pet combo, they fit the beast mastery theme, and get you in melee range with a pure ranger weapon.
As for whoever pointed out that they were a RANGEr, the word has nothing to do with ranged attacks, and everything to do with range as in a region, like a mountain RANGE.
Archegonia Mnium
24-07-2006, 11:07
It really doesn't matter how many times BM weapons have been asked for, it's still a perfectly legitimate request. Not everyone that begins a thread has or necessarily wants to have the time and/or patience to research the archived information in these forums before posting.
A spear, claws, or whip would be a pretty cool BM weapon. Like many have said, the damage isn't even all that important, but fighting with the pet in melee without NEEDING being a R/W would be pretty awesome.
crying wolf
24-07-2006, 16:56
As it is, Rangers have two choices for weapon selection and attribute assignment:
- Rely on their secondary class attributes
(meaning R/W bunny thumpers, R/A discount assassins, etc)
- Use Bows
Nothing is wrong with bows as such, but like many people, I like to sometimes go pure primary for builds. What I mean by this is no points or skills in the secondary class at all.
As such, I am caught between shooting and letting my pet go up front, or doing pathetic damage with a melee weapon to join it.
I do NOT want some godly replacement for the other melee weapons. Just something in line with Beast Mastery, and perhaps some skills to go with it in later chapters.
The first idea that came to mind was weapons like the bagh nakh (spelling there is probably shot to hell) and the shuko. Also known as claws.
Pros (as compared to other weapons)
- Faster attack speed (and maybe not even that, since the ranger has Tigers Fury and its factions clone in Beast Mastery, as well as lightning reflexes)
- Ability to go melee without relying on your secondary class for damage
- The ability to create a 'brawler' type character (not a massive advantage, but some people have professed a desire for something on these lines)
- Gives the beastmasters a weapon choice that doesn't force the above dilemma.
Cons
- Lower max damage than even daggers
- As of yet, no skills that would use these weapons
- Limited selection outside of creating new varieties (only really a con for those status mongers who want the coolest skins for everything)
-Limited mod ability (not a lot to the idea except the claws and something to hold them to your hand)
I know it can be argued that beast mastery comes with its own weapon (the pet), but:
- This is the only 'breakable' weapon in the game
- You need to use one skill slot to even equip said weapon, and another if it 'breaks'.
Finally, this is just an idea. It has its drawbacks and advantages like any other idea. I have tried to approach it reasonably, trying to cover concerns that may arise from it as I went along. If enough people show interest for it, MAYBE we can hope for something in chapter 3 or later.
To all this I reply, simply give some bows a beastmastery requirement. No need to give completely new weapon types, just give some bows that require beast mastery.
Example: tiger bow: req 9 beast mastery, 15-28 dmg, unidentified.
See how easy that was?
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