View Full Version : Fame for rank 0 is impossible
GW needs to figure out a way in which low rank people can gain fame more easily. This is ridiculous, if you have no connections; it's nearly impossible to get fame nowadays. In the early release it wasn’t bad at all, but now it's terrible. Everyone at the release was around the same rank and level; therefore, it wasn't so segregated. I would suggest GW making a less glamorous HA for low rank people where they can actually have a good time in 8v8 and get fame at the same time. If GW wants to prolong their popularity, they need to make pvp more accessible to low rank people. I’d like to hear other people’s suggestions too.
Ashberry
05-07-2006, 19:50
Nice idea, in theory.
In practice
Current HA (harder fame/rank)
learner HA (easier fame/rank)
Those from the current HA go to learner HA to farm rank from the far easier groups they'll encounter. Others will farm it also so they can get into the proper groups with little effort.
End result, fame/rank meaning even less than it does now. I know it sucks the way it is, but if it were any easier then everyone would have it and what would be the point in it anymore, in which case something new would be added, and the whole cycle would repeat.
"Those from the current HA go to learner HA to farm rank from the far easier groups they'll encounter."
They should have a lock on who can enter the newbie HA, i.e. those with ranks <3.
Ashberry
05-07-2006, 19:57
"Those from the current HA go to learner HA to farm rank from the far easier groups they'll encounter."
They should have a lock on who can enter the newbie HA, i.e. those with ranks <3.
It's possible it could work if they did that. Heck they do it in the low level arena's with levels dont they? So I suppose a set amount of fame could work too.. or even an entirely different kind of fame/rank all together awarded to the learner HA.
But just like the 4 man premade teams exploit in RA, people will find a way around it somehow :sad:
How about, winners of the learner HA get a chance to enter FoW/UW + 10% Moral Boost regardless of who has favor. So you've got your incentive there for PvE players to try it.
Any fame/rank earnt in that area would gradually go down, like Alliance Faction.
Regular fame/rank would still only be obtainable from the regular HA. And once you've reached rank 3 there, you can no longer enter the learner one. Also fame/rank in the proper HA wouldn't start going down, it would stay as it is right now, no changes to any of that.
I don't see how they could. If there's a lock, how can people >3 get in? GW needs to find a resolution to this growing problem, it can't be that hard.
Ashberry
05-07-2006, 20:06
I don't see how they could. If there's a lock, how can people >3 get in? GW needs to find a resolution to this growing problem, it can't be that hard.
There's no party forming in RA but it can still be done. I'm sure someone would have found a way to exploit anything.
Anyway look at it this way. Rank isn't that important, you dont need it to play with friends, and atleast you know what to expect with friends rather than elitist pugs.
Rank does matter. HA is horrid for people who know no one and can't get in a group, you won't even make it past the first battle. They have no way of progressing. It's like being an engineer when no one will hire you because you have no experience. Where can you get the experience if no one hires you?
There needs to be a place for people with low rank. If people would exploit it, then there should be no reward (e.g. fame) for the newbie HA in which only <3 are allowed. So at least they have a place to play good 8v8 with competition at their level. No emotes should be allowed either in this area, then everyone has an equal opportunity to play.
But I think Anet can figure out how to make it exploit free, they do it with other pvp arenas don't they? If in the case they can, they should discard the above idea.
Ashberry
05-07-2006, 20:36
There's always Team Arena's
Adding a special arena for people with rank less than 3 would simply create the same situation, but with rank 3 being equivalent to today's rank 0, and potentially a smaller problem in the lower arena - people wanting rank 2+, et cetera.
Many other ways to "break into" PvP have been discussed, the one I cannot stress enough is to play with people you know. Yes, as a single individual with no connections and no willingness to run risk playing in a crap group for a bit, you're not going to get far. That's not unique to HA or even Guild Wars.
I guess. But there needs to be an 8v8 more suitable for people with no experience.
I don't think it would be nearly as bad. It would be similar to when GW was released, probably much better. Additionally, if fame was rewarded, and only a specific range of rank was allowed in, it would be a constant flow of people entering and leaving.
It still wouldn't help the situation much in the "real" HA - as I said, it'd basically just make rank 3 equivalent to today's rank 0.
The real question is, why is it that "you won't even make it past the first battle" if you're not ranked? And why do you continue not to make it past the first battle?
If you lose, look at why you lost, and correct that, and you'll stand a greater chance of winning next time.
well what about for example, different HAs for increasing rank say 0-3, 4-6, 7+ etc... then an all ranks HA. That way, you're not restricted to a particular HA district with the all ranks HA and it would hopefully decrease the elitism by allowing learners to constantly play with others of a similar rank.
It still wouldn't help the situation much in the "real" HA - as I said, it'd basically just make rank 3 equivalent to today's rank 0.
The real question is, why is it that "you won't even make it past the first battle" if you're not ranked? And why do you continue not to make it past the first battle?
Yea your right aiiane, I didn't fully read that first post you made. But I disagree with you second comment. If your in a group with random people, who have no experience and are likley to split after a loss because they know they have no chance against high rank groups how can you discuss with these people what went wrong.
I like you idea orion, I think the only problem with that would be having enough people in each of those categories.
bellissima
05-07-2006, 21:05
I don't like this idea very much. I think I was rank 1 the first time I was with a group that won HoH. If I'd been in a newbie sandbox, it would be only a tiny fraction of the achievement.
As Aiane states, by dividing the ranks up, you only cause the elitism to continue on a different scale. In the rank 7+ arena, ppl are going to be asking for 9+ and the rank 7s will be crying that they never get groups.
The best way to start out in HA is to either
a) join a PvP guild that is willing to teach you and get you the experience you need.
b) get a like-minded group of friends together, devise (or borrow) a build to run and play together often.
PhoenixSapphire
05-07-2006, 21:05
Many other ways to "break into" PvP have been discussed, the one I cannot stress enough is to play with people you know. Yes, as a single individual with no connections and no willingness to run risk playing in a crap group for a bit, you're not going to get far. That's not unique to HA or even Guild Wars.
Playing with people you know is a great idea...unless you don't have anyone with whom to play.
bellissima
05-07-2006, 21:18
Playing with people you know is a great idea...unless you don't have anyone with whom to play.
Feel free to visit our player match-up forum (http://forums.gwonline.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141)here on this site. A majority of the people on my friends list today are people I've met on this site through match-up threads. It's a great resource!
I agree though that a better in-game mechanic for finding groups would be useful, but that's not the suggestion this thread is making. :cutie:
I don't like this idea very much. I think I was rank 1 the first time I was with a group that won HoH. If I'd been in a newbie sandbox, it would be only a tiny fraction of the achievement.
As Aiane states, by dividing the ranks up, you only cause the elitism to continue on a different scale. In the rank 7+ arena, ppl are going to be asking for 9+ and the rank 7s will be crying that they never get groups.
Th.
The elitism within each group would not be as extreme as it is now. Look at it now, 0-9+ are all in the same HA. What chance do new players 0 have against ranks 9+? Now, if there is a HA for 7-9, and 9's stay together and 7-8 have to band together, there is a much better competition going on. 7-8 actually has a good chance of beating ranks 9+. I doubt rank 7's will be whining, they are experienced players, while 0-3 aren't and they are playing against rank 9's who have hundreds of hours logged and in general are not playing with random people.
People will not get owned in one battle ALL THE TIME with random rank 5 going against rank 6, or random rank 7-8 against 9+. You cannot make that comparison valid.
Playing with people you know is a great idea...unless you don't have anyone with whom to play.
Which is why you have to experiment. Social networks don't appear overnight. Sure, the first hundred times, you're probably not going to get the best results - but there's really nothing that can change that, because it takes time to create those friendlists, time to find other people who want to invite you to groups, et cetera: PuGing will always be subpar when it comes to groups.
I rarely play with even high ranked pugs anymore, because even high ranked pugs are generally much less organized than a friend-based group.
bellissima
05-07-2006, 22:36
The elitism within each group would not be as extreme as it is now. Look at it now, 0-9+ are all in the same HA. What chance do new players 0 have against ranks 9+? Now, if there is a HA for 7-9, and 9's stay together and 7-8 have to band together, there is a much better competition going on. 7-8 actually has a good chance of beating ranks 9+. I doubt rank 7's will be whining, they are experienced players, while 0-3 aren't and they are playing against rank 9's who have hundreds of hours logged and in general are not playing with random people.
People will not get owned in one battle ALL THE TIME with random rank 5 going against rank 6, or random rank 7-8 against 9+. You cannot make that comparison valid.
The topic to which I was responding was elitism. The comparison is valid for forming pick-up groups.
On the topic of facing a more experienced team when entering HA well... I find it hard to believe that you get zero wins because every time you enter you face a rank 9 team. We usually get several consecutive wins before having to face a high ranked opponent. Sure it's possible that you might pull iA to fight in the first map, but chances are you won't. Same in GvG, no matter what rank guild you are there's a chance you could pull Evil or WM in rated matches. That's the nature of the beast. And as Aiane points out, a group of organized low-ranked friends can realistically beat an unorganized ranked PUG.
I'm not opposed to a less competetive arena, maybe an 8v8 version of TA for teams that want to practice HA maps or something. (or the HA equivalent of unrated GvG) But I don't think fame should be awarded for less-competitive play. That would be like, "let's make a 1.5k armor that looks just like FoW armor." The people that paid a lot of money and effort for their FoW armor are going to be upset. It's just not a good idea.
Ashberry
05-07-2006, 23:55
http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=408807
could always try get invited by those too. Thinking about it they'd probably suit you down to the ground. Doubt you'd be worrying about fame then neither :smiley:
Garfinkle
06-07-2006, 08:39
I agree on how hard it is to actually get into a party for HA. I play an assassin / monk and the reputation they have makes it nearly impossible to get into a team.
I was trying to get into one team earlier on this morning, and not mentioning the name of any players, **cough cough "------ ------" cough cough** they spent about 5 minutes inviting me then kicking me instantly then taunting me for no reason what so ever.
People treat you like **** if you do not have a rank or +3 or higher or are not an IWAY warrior.
I think there needs to be more hencies so people can go in without having to get into parties that just call you noob every 2 minutes.
I agree on how hard it is to actually get into a party for HA. I play an assassin / monk and the reputation they have makes it nearly impossible to get into a team.
There's you're problem right there, staring you in the face. Not that you play an A/Mo, debatable or not - the fact that you're only willing to play one profession setup. Flexibility is crucial to success in PvP - everyone doing their own thing with no coordination won't win in the long run, period. Team builds are coordinated and designed around a theme in order to accomplish the specific goals they need to be able to meet.
I was trying to get into one team earlier on this morning, and not mentioning the name of any players, **cough cough "----- ------" cough cough** they spent about 5 minutes inviting me then kicking me instantly then taunting me for no reason what so ever.
I might ask why you kept accepting, but I'd also point out the ignore list. There's a difference between elitism and just being rude, your example would be one of the latter.
People treat you like **** if you do not have a rank or +3 or higher or are not an IWAY warrior.
The people who do that treat just about everyone that way. Ignore them, report them if they're being truly abusive, and move on.
Garfinkle
06-07-2006, 08:59
The 5 minutes was actually a slight exageration :)
They invited me one, then kicked which i thought they did by mistake then they invited again and they kicked again, then one more time while i showed someone what they were doing then they kept inviting and cancelling the invite and trying again...some people get bored easy.
I use assasin / monk as my main setup because i play that build really well. I've not yet found another assassin build that i play well..Maybe if I could get into a team then they could give me some advice on some more playing builds that would help them.
I didn't know the ignore feature stopped them inviting you aswell, i thought that was just messaged based ignore. Thanks for that information.
Any PvP build suggestions would be much appreciated
Auntie I
06-07-2006, 13:13
Garfinkle, you cannot put other peoples names in posts without their permission. Please be more careful.
I dont think it will adjust anyhting..
With titles per rank people can more accuratly see what rank people are.
But adding in a training area will simply be abused.
The thing with HA - you can learn the maps by reading up and playing in PvE tombs.
But nothing can trian you really for competing against HA players in HA only by playing in HA itself =/.
Random grouping is all about communication - rank 9 players wont blind invite then hit enter - which is basically what your normal PUG will do.
Theres somethings that cant be learnt in trianing areas - Cant learn to fly in a car on the ground...
Naru Soulfire
I use assasin / monk as my main setup because i play that build really well. I've not yet found another assassin build that i play well..Maybe if I could get into a team then they could give me some advice on some more playing builds that would help them.
Any PvP build suggestions would be much appreciated
The main problem is that assassins still don't see much use in HA, due to the nature of their playstyle - they work best in a mobile environment where they can maximize the use of their mobility skills, and HA quite often ends up being a static fight in a single area. There aren't any standard "assassin builds" yet as there are for almost any other class, because there aren't any well-known team builds that use them. Limiting yourself to only playing an assassin is going to majorly impact your ability to get teams - expand your horizons, find a few different classes you like to play, and learn how to play them all well.
The thought of a tiered approach to lure players into PVP sounds good to me. Let's face it, we all want more crossover. Aiiane, do you think there is any nice way to introduce something like this and to lure more players into playing PVP? (And enjoying it)
The thought of a tiered approach to lure players into PVP sounds good to me. Let's face it, we all want more crossover. Aiiane, do you think there is any nice way to introduce something like this and to lure more players into playing PVP? (And enjoying it)
I've generally been of the frame of mind that people shouldn't have to be "lured" into one type of gameplay or another.
That said, there's a difference between luring and facilitating. I'm always looking through suggestions for ways that could truly accomplish this without creating their own drawbacks.
One of the major issues with HA when it comes to pitting teams against each other is that it's such a fluid environment: teams don't stick together, in general, from one day to the next, or even one hour to the next. There's no record of how well a team has done over the past week or longer, because the team didn't exist last week. Thus, there's no way to say team X is "better" than team Y beyond, perhaps, a comparison of the ranks of the players in those teams. But at the same time, individual rank is by no means an indication of the overall ability of the team - for instance, an extremely talented guild might have good coordination between its players who happen to not be high ranked, and completely overpower some random pug of higher-ranked players.
Thus, systems which try to pair up teams of "similar skill" are difficult to create due to the intrinsic problem of coming up with a way to gauge the ability of constantly changing teams.
Another problem is the question of population - if you solve the problem of measuring team skill by instead creating subsets of HA where only certain levels of teams may be formed, you decrease the number of potential opponents which they could play against (if you're trying to avoid the old system), and as one can easily see from the various map skips, or "no opposing party" messages, there are not always enough opponents as it is.
Then, there is the question of elitism - as long as rank exists, and people are allowed to freely choose teams (which, should that be changed, I believe would utterly destroy HA), people will use rank as a determining factor when nothing better is available. Creating subsets of rank will simply break the elitism down into smaller subsets, and while it caters to those who could not compete on a higher level (or cannot yet), it holds back those who could compete but have not invested the time to grind the fame necessary for a higher rank, which itself goes against the intrinsic motto of Guild Wars.
Yet another problem is that of progression - newer players will very slowly learn the full extent of the Tournament maps, as each time they encounter a map they are unfamiliar with, they'll be at a disadvantage (read: will probably lose the first few times they play that map), which, since it sends them back to the start of a fixed map progression, means they will have to work their way back up before they can try a new strategy on the map. Personally, I would like to see the order of the maps played randomized, with a ladder setup external to the maps themselves governing progression through the Tournament. (On this note, Hall of Heroes could also use a massive revamp, in particular I believe it should rotate through a selection of maps with different objectives such as not to cater to one specific type of "holding build".)
I'm still looking for ways these points could be addressed, though I've included a couple of suggestions.
I've generally been of the frame of mind that people shouldn't have to be "lured" into one type of gameplay or another. That said, there's a difference between luring and facilitating. I'm always looking through suggestions for ways that could truly accomplish this without creating their own drawbacks.
Facilitating. (rolls it around her tongue) That sounds of shady deals and men in black trenchcoats with expensive German cars meeting in steamy alleyways.
Could you facilitate this through a up but not down tiered system? Protect the lowest ranked members that are just beginning to fumble around from experienced players simply trouncing them repetitively, but also allow for the low ranked members to play in higher tiers should they so choose? (By virtue of being more experienced / etc. already)
Fundamentally though, even with such an approach I suppose it is still possible for high ranked players (Individuals) to join a team and fight against lower ranked (And potentially less experienced) players and beat them to the point that they might not feel like playing this anymore. But eventually they'd gain enough to be barred from that tier, were their thing to be the smackdown of inexperienced players.
I suppose the main thing is - whenever there is a PvE <-> PvP discussion the main motivation for PvE players tend to be - "I don't enjoy it". And nobody enjoys having their bottom handed to them on a platter. Time after time. While learning is the way to go, a slightly more encouraging learning curve might help them?
Edit: Silly me. Thank you very much, that was a well thought out response - I always love reading those!
Facilitating. (rolls it around her tongue) That sounds of shady deals and men in black trenchcoats with expensive German cars meeting in steamy alleyways.
Hah, I initially had that sort of feeling when I was typing it as well, but it's the word that most directly conveys the meaning I was trying to get across.
Could you facilitate this through a up but not down tiered system? Protect the lowest ranked members that are just beginning to fumble around from experienced players simply trouncing them repetitively, but also allow for the low ranked members to play in higher tiers should they so choose? (By virtue of being more experienced / etc. already)
You could, but then you'd run into both the population problem, and a problem if players ran into more skilled teams later that they weren't prepared for. You also have the problem of mixed-rank teams, how do you judge whether they're allowed to play together or not? If there's one rank 8 playing with some newbie friends, should they then be barred for a lower tier?
I suppose the main thing is - whenever there is a PvE <-> PvP discussion the main motivation for PvE players tend to be - "I don't enjoy it". And nobody enjoys having their bottom handed to them on a platter. Time after time. While learning is the way to go, a slightly more encouraging learning curve might help them?
A lot of that is because quite simply, the mindset involved in PvP will not appeal to many of those who enjoy the mindset involved in PvE, and vice versa. Not everyone likes both. Yes, losing is one reason to not enjoy something - but I really don't think that's the majority of where the "I don't like it" responses come from. Some of them definitely do come from there, and some of the things I suggested above would help to make it easier for someone not already involved in the system per say.
Contrary to popular belief, not everyone in high level PvP is an "elitist name-calling arrogant pain in the rear who never considers what others go through". :wink: Personally I'm always a fan of reasoned debate.
Cerulean Niteshadow
07-07-2006, 01:08
Aiiane, Katya her is my thought and Jatya you know that I dont PVP, just a little dabble.
If there was a setup similair to what Ashberry said where you have Rank 0,1,& 2 only or even say Rank 0 & 1 and another area for Rank 2 & 3 then the main HA then I would be more tempted to try PVP.
Yes there will still be some elitism, but I think it would be reduced. Quite a few of us PVE'rs would be willing to try PVP more but get discouraged because of the attitudes there and yes we know that you can take friends along, but still doesnt stop the fact.
You have to find 3-7 other people who have a strong enough resolve as you have to even go there to try. A new area/s like this would entice more of us PVE players to try.
We have to admit that Anet would love more people to PVP and they keep adding more PVP type content and directing PVE towards it.
The thing about HA is that in its current state, the PvP community's consensus is that TA much more competitive than HA. I'd start there (or even in RA, just to get your feet wet, but RA is not a place to learn competent PvPing) with some friends - don't worry if you lose.
Disclaimer: I don't even PvP a lot at all, being in a PvE guild. But it's good to keep up with the competitive community, since they are the ones driving the game where it is. Competitive Guild Wars rewards players who are skilled, willing to learn, and have friends. Interestingly, real life is the same way.
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