What about added attribute points?!?!?

[Concerned Guildy]

The last time I threw out a open discussion I found that it was already there, I expected that but I still went ahead. This time I looked into it and I did not find any recent discussions about this topic.
People have asked about making the characters go from level 20 to level whatever... Well, I am asking "How bad would it be to increase the attribute points from 200 to something more?" :huh:
This should not cause any devastating work for the GW employees, but it could make PvE a little more fun by allowing more options with the skills/spells. This is mainly a PvE advantaged request, with this, the monsters can all stay the same levels since we stay the same levels but now we will just have more capabilities. PvP might become a little more difficult because more options would be opened up. For most people anyways, the added points will not effect them much since their build does not need anymore attribute points becuase all of the skills/spells are usually under a common area(i.e. Strength, Blood Magic, whatever...).
I just wanted to throw this out as a community chat and see what others think.

PLEASE for those with angry issues... do not call people names or trash on them because they have a different opinion. :cry: This is just an open discussion about this topic about a GAME! Stay calm.
Thank you, and think about it.

[nkuvu]

This has the exact same arguments against it that an increase in levels would have.

If you increase the available attribute points, you've just skewed the balance of the game.

[Cerulean Niteshadow]

This biggest problem will be a balance issue. The only way to increase our attribute points and keep the game (at least PVE side) balanced is to increase the points for the monsters.

The way the system is has worked just fine and I see now reason to change it.

[ultimastrike]

I think that GW is extremely well balanced, more than any other MMO game I have ever heard of. I don't think a few more att points is worth unbalancing everything. I'm going to have to say no.

[WingspanTT]

I think you are about to be flooded with:

"Ummmmm.... no."

Because, ultimately what is the point of this? To make the game easier? I really do not see how this improves the game. If you feel it is just PvE, the mroe logical solutions would be:

1. Lower moster levels
2. Lower monster armor
3. Lower monster attributes

Of course, I don't think the game is too hard, so I don't approve of your idea or any of the less unbalancing ones I just suggested.

Get rdy to be roasted? lol

[BastDawn]

There is nothing to discuss here that hasn't already been discussed to death in the old threads about raising the level cap. You might as well go read those old threads, because nothing has happened recently to change any of the reasons why increasing attribute points is a bad idea for GW.

[Aiiane]

I'm not going to call names... but I do think that this thread is pointless and a rehash of many threads before it (monthly topic rotation, anyone?).

[cantan]

For most people anyways, the added points will not effect them much since their build does not need anymore attribute points becuase all of the skills/spells are usually under a common area(i.e. Strength, Blood Magic, whatever...).

People pick as few attributes (which limits them in their skill choices) to be abled to max em out. This is why some good spell combinations are under different attributes.

actually in EVERY PVP build i had i could use more points to make my build more effective, but then where's the fun in making a build?

[WingspanTT]

You must also consider that diveristy is what builds thrive on. Being able to max 4 lines instead of would probably make many builds so strong as to be the only ones used. Not saying that there is not already some of this, but why wouldn't every ranger just put wilderness survival at 12, and bring an uber ungent AND 2 traps, plus an uber pet and pet attack, and 2 uber bow attacks, and great expertise?!?!

EVERY mesmer would have 13 fast cast + 3 other maxed lines.. insanity!

[Jarreth Tal]

You must also consider that diveristy is what builds thrive on. Being able to max 4 lines instead of would probably make many builds so strong as to be the only ones used. Not saying that there is not already some of this, but why wouldn't every ranger just put wilderness survival at 12, and bring an uber ungent AND 2 traps, plus an uber pet and pet attack, and 2 uber bow attacks, and great expertise?!?!

EVERY mesmer would have 13 fast cast + 3 other maxed lines.. insanity!

I agree. We'd stop seeing the variety of builds we see now, and everyone would go with some list of min/max skills.

Jarreth Tal.

[fizzie jiggs]

why? why unbalance a game thats almost perfectly balanced (there a defenately a few kinks in it but w/e). why do you even want more attribute points? i think the less we have the more creative we are forced to be.

[Mai Hon]

I'm going to agree - I'd like more attribute points - in fact I'd prefer them to the infinite varieties of the same spell syndrome which factions seems to be the start of - ok not a lot more - but enough to give me more of a feeling of progression than I have now.
In fact I'd like to be able to make the choice between using my skill points to buy ether a new spell or an attribute point that makes what I already have more effective. Sure you wouldn't want to go 1 skill point for 1 attribute point but maybe it's possible at a 10-1 (or more) exchange rate and with an attribute point cap set for each expansion game I don't see what the problem would be - as you warp to each game area (Tyria, Cantha, etc.) your attribute points cap adjusts accordingly.
As for reducing build varieties - I think it might increase them.

[katya]

This is the lengthy thread on the level cap (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=370998). The level cap and attribute points are rather closely related in the whole balance issue. It's a worthwhile read for new forum members who might have missed earlier discussions. (MTR FTW!)

For me, I would not want to see the balance fundamentally altered by throwing more attribute points at the game. Particularly when PvE and PvP is becoming more blended this additional segregation is not a good thing.

I can understand why - but currently we are all playing within the same restrictions and can build whatever we want within that. More attribute points won't make a difference to build divergence / popularity as you'd just be raising the cap that people have to play within.

[cinders]

Increasing attribute points would require rebalancing the entire game. The game is fun and playable as it is. More attribute points would mean any profession any build would become a spiker. Fights would be over in two spells.

Learn to play the game as it is.

If you want to learn game design, go learn game design. Right now, it seems clear you don't have a handle on the design of this one. Getting a handle on that would be a good idea ifyou don't want people giving you flame posts.

[Dreadwing]

Solution New lines of attribute when ur lv20 and the new piont can only be spent on these.....but then you prob can only be up to maybe lv30-40 depending on what could be added.

[KaliMagdalene]

200 points is fine. If you really desperately need to have some points in another attribute, just drop one of your high-level attributes a point or two, which will give you a good start on another attribute.

At 200 points, you still need to make some decisions on how to allocate your points while still potentially giving up what could be strong combos for other combos. Raising it would remove or mitigate those decisions, which would just unbalance things.

[Cyberman]

You will never be (much) stronger than the enemies. You have to beat them with skill, not raw power(as more attribute points would mean).

There is no way around, no matter how you try.

(Unless ANet decides they throw everything out of the window, but that´ll ruin the game, as they´d either have to spend months to rebalance or have a totally unbalanced game - PVP and PVE.)

[vaxmor]

oh noes 16heal + 16tactix W/MOs!

this is another retarded suggestion, be grateful that GW is a beautifully balanced game, why make suggesitions to destroy that balance?

pls learn2play

kkthanxbye

[cantalus]

yes, have to agree, the game is balanced as it is. and as far as difficult monsters, mission etc, well, one i'd argue that none are very difficult, and two being challenged is fun.

[Reigning Deth]

I had an idea a short while ago that I think addresses the issue of being able to work and become more powerful because of it. After all, people do like to be able to grind a wee bit; WoW's popularity is largely due to the fact that with more time and effort, you continue to grow more powerful until you hit lvl 60. However, I do acknowledge that adding a significant quantity of attribute points or raising the level cap would screw up every balance in the game. So...

What about raising your individual attributes? Many of you think this is a stupid idea, but please hear me out. First, the way it would work is that you could obtain a permanent 1-point increase in all of your attributes (individually, of course). It's sort of like the stackable bonus from your headpiece or a minor rune, except you could get it for the character itself rather than tying it to armor, and you could raise all your primary and secondary attributes by one if you're willing to spend the time and effort.

I suggest that there be a set of quests in some sort of universally accessible place, such as Fissure of Woe, that would reward you with these permanent boosts in whichever attributes you take the trouble to enhance. Alternately, you could trade in Balthazar faction for them (you would have to have the superior rune for the corresponding attribute unlocked already) just like anything else you unlock for PvP only. Getting it in PvE, of course, would also unlock it for PvP characters. My case for this is thus:

1) It would not kill the PvE or PvP balances. Imagine running any build you currently have, but with +1 in every attribute. Would the build be altered significantly? Not likely. Enemies would still be almost as hard as ever to kill, and although PvP players might have a bit of an edge over those without these bonuses, it wouldn't matter. Consider that right now, there already exist differences much greater than this in terms of runes, skills, and weapon mods that some have unlocked and others don't; this would merely be one more advantage given to those who are willing to work to get ahead.

2) It would apply to all updates with a single set of quests. Fissure of Woe is accessible from Cantha or Tyria, so no one with both accounts gets an advantage over someone with only one.

3) It's a small change that would give us something tangible to work for. The psychological effect of having +1 in every attribute is far greater than the actual impact on the game or strategies.

I welcome any and all objections, so long as you give a specific reason why it will not work. This allows me at the very least to finetune the idea, since I truly believe that it is not useless.

[Aiiane]

A permanent increase in each attribute would have a very large effect on some skills when it comes to skill breakpoints - for instance, many skills have a breakpoint at 8 in the attribute - so with the +1 bonus, points would only have to be spent to bring it up to 7 to hit that breakpoint, effectively giving the character 9 attribute points to spend somewhere else, which, while it's only a +1 to the original skill, those 9 attribute could become 4 in a second skill. Which becomes unbalancing. So unfortunately, though I can see what you were aiming for, it doesn't work out in the long run.

I still think that "needing" a way to make the stats of your character better through work isn't true, but since that would make your entire idea pointless, I decided to lay that aside and respond to just the idea itself.

[Reigning Deth]

A permanent increase in each attribute would have a very large effect on some skills when it comes to skill breakpoints - for instance, many skills have a breakpoint at 8 in the attribute - so with the +1 bonus, points would only have to be spent to bring it up to 7 to hit that breakpoint, effectively giving the character 9 attribute points to spend somewhere else, which, while it's only a +1 to the original skill, those 9 attribute could become 4 in a second skill. Which becomes unbalancing. So unfortunately, though I can see what you were aiming for, it doesn't work out in the long run.

I still think that "needing" a way to make the stats of your character better through work isn't true, but since that would make your entire idea pointless, I decided to lay that aside and respond to just the idea itself.
I concede that you don't need to make your stats better through work, but I do think it's something that has worked very well for other RPGs because it's something that people like. I see what you mean about the skill breaks, though, but I think that's easily solved. What if you could only apply one at a time out of the ones you have unlocked? Admittedly, you could still do what you described above, albeit with only one attribute, but I think that having 4 in an "extra" attribute (and presumably a single skill from that line) would really be less of a balancing issue and more of a strategic shakeup, since you pay for this weakened attribute by sacrificing a skill slot from the build you had before.

[Aiiane]

I concede that you don't need to make your stats better through work, but I do think it's something that has worked very well for other RPGs because it's something that people like. I see what you mean about the skill breaks, though, but I think that's easily solved. What if you could only apply one at a time out of the ones you have unlocked? Admittedly, you could still do what you described above, albeit with only one attribute, but I think that having 4 in an "extra" attribute (and presumably a single skill from that line) would really be less of a balancing issue and more of a strategic shakeup, since you pay for this weakened attribute by sacrificing a skill slot from the build you had before.

Going from 0 to 4 points in an attribute is the difference between losing 4 energy per hit to Distortion, and 3 energy. On a non illusion-mesmer character, this can be a big difference. Just an example.

It works in other games because other games are based around character development being central to who wins battles. Guild Wars has focused on moving the other direction, so that character development has little to do with who actually wins the battle.

[Reigning Deth]

Going from 0 to 4 points in an attribute is the difference between losing 4 energy per hit to Distortion, and 3 energy. On a non illusion-mesmer character, this can be a big difference. Just an example.

It works in other games because other games are based around character development being central to who wins battles. Guild Wars has focused on moving the other direction, so that character development has little to do with who actually wins the battle.
I'll trust you on the effectiveness of the extra points, as I'm a bit of a casual gamer myself. For that matter, I probably wouldn't even get the very bonuses I'm proposing; I've been playing for over a year and still have yet to step foot inside the Fissure of Woe. :tongue: In any case, for the time being, I'll let the idea rest, though I still feel like I could make it work...

On a slightly related note, what if there was an arena where as long as you were inside it, all of your attributes were set to 16 and all runes had no effect? I think that would certainly generate some interesting builds...

[selisia the white]

Everyone else seems to have mentioned the unbalancing side of increased attribute points so i wont say anymore on that matter, i would like to see more recognition than just 1 skill point for 15000 hard earned xp points, was it that you found the game too hard or are you looking for reasons to continue playing?

[natasia]

Right now, there is a system to get up to 13 additional attribute points. Yes, its the runes and headpiece system. Your character has up to 200, +1 from their headpiece, then an additional 1, 2, or 3 for each of their runes. In fact, its pointless not to have a minor rune for any attribute you don't have a larger rune for, since minor runes do not cost any health.

With that bit of logic, I'd say that anyone with their max armor and a bit of intelligence, should be running at least 205 attribute points. My necro is currently running one superior and one major. My warrior is just running three majors. My ranger only ever uses one superior rune at a time.
Note: All characters are also using minor runes of various things, even if their not using the attribute thats being raised for a particular build.

My only point is, there is a built in way to have more then 200 attribute points already.

I do not agree that the attribute max should be raised, unless the level cap is raised, the enemy mob levels are raised....in short, Anet would have to make serious, fundamental changes to the structure of Guild Wars to justify increasing attribute point caps.

Right now, there's many different ways to disperse your 200 attribute points. I almost always go with only 3 attributes with points in them. You can do 4 or more, but 4 can sometimes spread your points out too thin. Oh and FYI, my opinions on this are based pretty much purely on PvE, I don't PvP enough to speak for that side of the game. Some builds I go with the very simple, 12, 10, 8 distribution. With the headpiece and runes, this distribution on my necro actually takes the form of, 16, 12, 8. On anouther note, I went to a superior rune and one major AFTER the life sacrfice mod on the major runes. If you haven't guessed it, this is a MM attribute point spread, not that it matters, the points can be spread among three attributes for almost anything. My ranger uses a crap load of different point spread actually, but most of the time, she's using a 12, 9, 9 spread. For her, its actually 16, 10, 10. Thats for when she's barraging. My Monk, on the other hand, is usually doing a two attribute build, with just 16, 14. But then again, how many attributes does a healing monk need? I had thought about putting some points into Protection prayers, but for her healing build, I just couldn't justify it.

Anyways, you can get my drift. Besides, how many attributes do you need points in? Even if they increase the max, you can still only pack 8 skills on you at a time. To be honest, most of my characters only take skills from 2 attribute catagories at a time (Depending, of coarse). Most of the time, they have points in their primary attribute just for the added effect. I just don't really see much of a point to increasing the attribute range, other then people with a couple million exp on one character, (such as my necro) would suddenly be GODLIKE and terrifying. You mention this increase in reguards to PvE, but hell, if my attributes suddenly got a huge buff, I'd probably be seeing how much smack down I could put in at the PvP arenas.