View Full Version : Assassin Hit and Run Mechanic - Needs revision?
hotdogtesting
09-07-2006, 22:14
ANet said many times that the Assassin is a character class that attempts to use Hit and Run tactics. The very layout of their skills and armor seem to emphasize this fact. They are not only fragile, but deal large amounts of damage in short bursts.
However, hit and run is one of those things that look nice on paper, but, often, works poorly in practice. With the spurious network latency that we sometimes get, assassins often have only split seconds to decide to "run" and actually "running". For an average player, this seems to be asking for too much as seen by the numerous complaints and comments about the frequent assassin deaths and the attempts to construct "tanking" assassin builds.
Thus, I think it may be time to change the assassin so that the hit and run comes as a part of their skills... rather than players actively maneuvering their characters. Perhaps some kind of passive skills needs to be added which automatically teleports the player after finishing his/her combo. I don't know.
What do you think? Should the assassin's gameplay mechanic be changed from the skills up to facillitate hit and run?
After seeing how deadly hit-and-run assassins can be in GvG, when observing some of the season finals (see Last Pride vs. War Machine), I don't think it needs to be revised at all. If anything, the only reason it hasn't seen effective use in PvE play is the high learning curve associated with playing a good hit-and-run assassin.
Or the fact that PvE is designed to be not very good for the whole hit-and-run business. I find that I'm repeating myself, but this seems relevant:
PvE environment needs to change, we have far too many zerg-fests already. We do NOT need any more of those. Even mixing some stronger, less numerous monster types in the mix works.
Icy Spicy
09-07-2006, 22:34
assassin and to some extent mesmers, are designed for PvP play, not PvE... infact, most PvE part of the game are so simply, you get your healers, and a tank who stalls the enemy, then nukers to kill the entire mob, you might use MM to absorb damage from the mobs, SS to take advantage of the bad AI, thats about it, single target spells are hardly worth it
MasterNightfall
09-07-2006, 22:45
Too bad that disrupts, daze, and blind is.
Icy Spicy
09-07-2006, 22:56
Too bad that disrupts, daze, and blind is.
that is best left to mesmers, not assasins... but still, what is the point of blind a monster if it will be dead within 5 seconds, it does have its uses when you hit a boss, but hardly worth it in PvE
Alaric Surion
09-07-2006, 23:01
I love using my assassin for hit and run in both pve and pvp. Using something like AoD is a very easy way to get in and out when you want to and a great way to bounce around the map as long as you know how to handle it.
Generally I keep my sin behind a warrior and wait for him to aggro, then ill AoD from a safe spot into the fight, hit with my combo that is designed to do major conditions and then take AoD off and return to the safe spot. So far its worked out pretty well.
takplayer
09-07-2006, 23:10
I don't think any change is necessary. As others have brought up, Assassins and Mesmers are both designed to kill in PvP, however skills like Assassin's Promise and Death Blossom make PvE killing painless.
And if you're lagging, that's almost always your computer's problem. I have a really nice computer, and I've lagged maybe 5 times over the life of Guild Wars.
MasterNightfall
09-07-2006, 23:10
that is best left to mesmers, not assasins... but still, what is the point of blind a monster if it will be dead within 5 seconds, it does have its uses when you hit a boss, but hardly worth it in PvE
The use is doing it to an off-target. The use is reducing the amount of damage your healers have to heal over. Okies?
Battles aren't over in 5 seconds, okies?
Apok Omni
09-07-2006, 23:11
Icy, Assassins are excellent in PvE; you just need brains, patience, and coordination in order to play them to their full potential. Yes, the most common build for missions is MM, Tank, Nukers, SS, and Monks, but that leaves at least one slot open for another char.
Assassins make great boss killers, as their combo attacks can easily bring them to their knees, then just slash them to 0 health; let the others worry about the mobs.
Assassins have weak armor, yes. Does it mean that they are worthless? no. As a sin myself, all I do is hang out with the casters/bowmasters, and if any enemy walks up to them, I unleash my fury upon them and they focus on me, thus I kill it fast while relieving the fellow squishies.
And Mesmers nowadays are wanted in PUGs because people notice how well they are being used in interrupts, degen, and even boss-killing.
Saying that Mesmers and Assassins are only for PvP is wrong since they are played extremely useful in PvE as well.
Ju Smurph
10-07-2006, 03:04
Three things
1) Aura of Displacement
2) Most other Shadow Step Abilities
3) Assassin Forums (http://forums.gwonline.net/forumdisplay.php?f=149)
its the same thing as rangers.
remeber the time when people kept saying rangers are useless.
it just takes awhile for people to learn and use a class
hotdogtesting
10-07-2006, 03:20
Three things
1) Aura of Displacement
So what you're saying is that assassins should use only one elite? And ignore all of the other ones...
Yes, you'll be able to hit and run, but at what cost?
2) Most other Shadow Step Abilities
Unfortunately, there aren't very many shadow-stepping abilities that do not require direct user input. Other than Viper's Defense, most shadow stepping abilities only trigger after a user bashes on some button... which still doesn't solve any latency issues you may experience.
3) Assassin Forums (http://forums.gwonline.net/forumdisplay.php?f=149)
Perhaps, but realise that this is something that will potentially affect any and all secondary assassins...
I don't think any change is necessary. As others have brought up, Assassins and Mesmers are both designed to kill in PvP, however skills like Assassin's Promise and Death Blossom make PvE killing painless.
And if you're lagging, that's almost always your computer's problem. I have a really nice computer, and I've lagged maybe 5 times over the life of Guild Wars.
I was a bit unclear in my definition of lag... I don't necessarily refer to long spurts of lag. I'm talking about the latency between initiating a command and carrying out that command.
I don't believe anyone can claim that they don't suffer from some kind of latency in their gameplay. When you tell a character to go left, there's generally going to be a pause. For most classes this is not a big deal, but this is the difference between a life or death for a sin.
Now as for those who think the Last Pride match didn't suffer from lag... realise that those people used connections in close proximity. This would reduce latency... I doubt most average GW players can claim that they regularly play with people right across from them.
its the same thing as rangers.
remeber the time when people kept saying rangers are useless.
it just takes awhile for people to learn and use a class
My memory goes back a bit further to when rangers were considered (bar none) the best class in the game. That was back before ANet realised how imbalanced a low-cost concussion shot was...
To all those who are arguing about PvE vs PvP:
I would like to state here that these revisions that I'm suggesting are not specifically targetted to either PvE or PvP. I am merely recommending suggestions to compliment what assassins were originally touted to do (hit and run).
I merely think that with the inconsistencies and unreliabilities of internet connections... a less "reflex" dependant solution should exist for the assassin's hit and run tactics.
As I have mentioned, I would like to see some kind of option or skill that triggers a random shadowstep at the conclusion of a dual attack.
GAH! I hit yes instead of no... but anyway, if you think Sin's need to be more hit-and-run affective, just throw in AoD or Armor of Earth and you shouldn't have to many problems.
Ju Smurph
10-07-2006, 04:05
Perhaps your strategy is in need of tuning... Maybe your opponent is well equipped with ways to deal with you etc.
I mean, if it was too easy to jump around and survive as an assassin there would be a problem. Assassins don't 'run' away, they Shadow Step away. Its not hit and run at all, "kill and disappear".
AoD makes such easy, want another elite, consider if nothing else 'Return'. Not trying to put you down, just Assassins do require a great deal of skill.
Shadowed Sun
10-07-2006, 04:18
So what you're saying is that assassins should use only one elite? And ignore all of the other ones...
Umm, off topic, but as a ranger, Barrage sound familiar? :cry:
In PUG's, that's all that's wanted, and beleive it or not, it's not that good, so calm down about it...:tongue:
Same with Assassins, that might be "their" skill, but we'll see...
ss
Not true... many missions also require Trappers and Interrupters, and folks are sure to ask for them if you post the question "What do you need me to bring?" I've seen "Group LF Trapper" much more often than "Group LF Barrager"
Shadowed Sun
10-07-2006, 04:27
Not true... many missions also require Trappers and Interrupters, and folks are sure to ask for them if you post the question "What do you need me to bring?" I've seen "Group LF Trapper" much more often than "Group LF Barrager"
Ahh, yes, but that's not based around one skill :tongue:
But barrage is fun for farming, that was supposed to be my edit s second ago, but i'll put it here.
ss
Martian Tristar
10-07-2006, 04:30
seeming great guilds like for example warmachine use assassins all the time in GvG there must be some effective use to these characters. Actually I use them too, but somehow that doenst come over as such a strong argument :grin:
Sins are just harder to play than for example a warrior, just like the mesmer was hard to play at the beginning. Assassins will get their rightfull place in builds eventually.
Hit and Run tactics with a pve assassin? LOL! I remind you people that this is the same side of the game that have curse necro's dumping 45 energy in the first 4 seconds of battle.
Icy Spicy
10-07-2006, 04:33
The use is doing it to an off-target. The use is reducing the amount of damage your healers have to heal over. Okies?
Battles aren't over in 5 seconds, okies?
mmm do you always arrgo 5 mobs or something? because a good pull/arrgo will result in 0 off-targets
5 is just a good number, i dont actually have a stopwatch to time every fight
and Apok Omni, i know mesmers and assassians are good boss killers, but bosses are rare in this game...
As for the poll, no i dont think there should be a passive skill or anything... there is so many running/teleporting skills, put them in your slots
MasterNightfall
10-07-2006, 05:28
mmm do you always arrgo 5 mobs or something? because a good pull/arrgo will result in 0 off-targets
When you pull, you pull a group.
The group focus fires on one enemy.
In the meanwhile, the Assassin is able to perma-disrupt, and kill an off-target. And by off-target, I mean, one of the enemies that the party isn't focus-firing. Preferably one with dangerous spells/healing spirits.
BahamutKaiser
12-07-2006, 06:39
I think the problem with "hit and run" tactics is that the skills assassin has to "hit and run" arn't effective enough.
Assassin is a melee class, thus he is liable to more damage, he can do alot of damage with his skills, but he has to use a chain of skills to do an effective amount of damage, and he has to successfully use them consecutively, which alone balances the effectiveness of his skills. Assassin may have more energy regen on his armor, but without effective skills for him to use, particularly to hit and run, he is grossly deficient to the task.
I think it is broken that Assassins teleport skills have such long reuse times, any normal advancing teleport has an outragious recast time, and some of his other teleports are either too expensive or also have overly long recast times. AoD is a good elite, even though it is expensive and a costly way to advance onto your target, but Dark Prison and Deaths Charge have abismal recast times, making advances into one hit wonders. Furthermore, in order to us, "hit and run" with anything other than AoD, an Assassin requires 2 teleport skills, or a teleport and run skill, some of his escaping skills are decent, expecially return, but with 45-60 second advancing teleports, it is hardly and in and out operation, and certainly not something you can use in PvE.
I don't think shadowsteping should be a passive skill for Assassin, even a permenant running boost is a significant advantage, but I certainly do think these teleporting skills should be much more effective, with shorter recast times and lower costs. Assassin is designed with armor that stresses more energy for skill use instead of defense to absorb attacks, his skills need to be (need to be) effective enough to overcome the lack of armor he has with the energy he has to use. Being able to teleport to targets regularly is a neccessary part of replacing the lack of armor Assassin has, they can use other skills from other classes to compensate for defense, but it isn't any better than warrior, and they still have less defense, Assassin needs more effective skills at his disposal to compensate for the defensive disadvantage the class has.
Warrior is melee, but he has the highest armor, not just heavier body armor, but weapons equipable in combination with a shield, marching into battle is offset by the armor to withstand the added attacks they take doing so. Ranger performs attacks at maximum ranges, even with more reliable armor types than Assassin, they attack at the safest range in the game, further then anyone else.
Assassin need skills effective enough to compensate for the difference in capabilities, the fact that Assassin even requires skills to compensate for defensive advantages his competators have naturally is not very favorable, those skills need to be good to overcome the difference, not just the difference in capabilities Warrior and Ranger have by default, but the strength they have with that and the skill slot they can use for something else instead of a movement technique just to compeate. Assassins teleports need to be effective to match other classes equipment and skill used otherwise by his competators.
The fact that Assassin can work isn't good enough, it needs to be effective in general, Assassin can spike some nice damage, which is no better than an Elementist, who does it from full range. Assassins skills are cheaper than nuking, but they rely on a proper combinatio to work, combination which can be thrown off by any imparing or evasive skill, so the fact that Assassins skills are powerful is self balancing. Assassins overall capabilities don't provide any more effectiveness then a typical Mesmer/Elementist or Elementist/Necromancer, he is basicly a caster on the front line, with situational armor that may as well not exsist and even effectivly doesn't match Warrior.
My basic suggestion for Assassin is that his teleports become much more available for constant use instead of 45-60 second recasts, or 10-15 energy + maintenance. The class is the most vulnerable, most conditional, perhaps even most speciallized unit in the game, it certainly needs effective teleport skills to compeate, not just with 2 or 3 certain skills but with his general skill selection. You should be able to advance teleport on the enemy nearly as often as you can retreat, and Heart of Shadows is a joke, it needs to be a spamable skill not a weak prep skill. Hit and Run tactics, particularly with teleports, should not rely on a single elite, making other elites unavailable for effective combat use.
I don't see the point of introducing a cool gameplay element and then making it barely enjoyable, why even have teleports if you can't use them, it sucks. Teleporting is what makes assassin fun, other classes can put down major damage on more than a single target from range, throw down a combination of conditions, hexes and damage, or just hack and slash better than assassin, for such a conditional and fragile class, Assassin not only needs better teleports to be fun, but Assassins need them to even be decent.
I appreciate the Assasin henchies. They show me how good Assasins can be.
I appreciate the Assasin henchies. They show me how good Assasins can be.
Um, was that sarcasm? I'm sorry, it's the end of the day over here and my sarcasm meter is working properly. :undecided:
Um, was that sarcasm? I'm sorry, it's the end of the day over here and my sarcasm meter is working properly. :undecided:
No, I'm actually serious.
For some strange reason when I'm taking my Ritualist out the Assassin henchie seems to be doing allright most of the time. Real hit and run type stuff and there's been a few times when it's her+healer henchie left. The only annoyance is when the jumps between shadows aggro another group. Of course, I'm not very deep into Factions yet, so that might change, but I'll (almost) always take the Assassin henchie with if I'm henching it.
Human players should be so much better!
No, I'm actually serious.
For some strange reason when I'm taking my Ritualist out the Assassin henchie seems to be doing allright most of the time. Real hit and run type stuff and there's been a few times when it's her+healer henchie left. The only annoyance is when the jumps between shadows aggro another group. Of course, I'm not very deep into Factions yet, so that might change, but I'll (almost) always take the Assassin henchie with if I'm henching it.
Human players should be so much better!
Ahh, right. Well, I've found the assassin henchies to be quite good at shutting down an enemy, particularly spellcaster enemies (their elite is Beguiling Haze, and being NPCs, they almost never miss due to timing problems). They also Entangling Asp, and knockdowns never hurt!
Unfortunately, the assassin henchies still don't know when to run from/avoid a fight, so they will happily join a brute squad melee full of warriors when they would be better off waiting behind. Even worse, several of the assassin henchies use Viper's Defense, which has caused me total wipes several times because they teleported right into the aggro range of another enemy group.
So, if you can build a group that mitigates these weaknesses, then yes, the assassin henchies are great to have. For the most part though, I find them more trouble than they're worth.
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