anyone else hate dervishes?

[oldmantime]

i thought they might be a cool char class but the idea behind them seems all wrong to me, they're like a tanking warrior with an assassins damage output and condition causing in AOE, imo their damage needs to be reduced severely or they need to lose the ability to keep gaining health all the time (i'm not talking about the COP build, i'm just talking about the idea behind them)

[Art Yi Mor]

Hate is a strong word, but I reckon they';ll be nerfed to high heaven for the proper release. It's a game of balance afterall and Anet will want to keep it that way.

-Art

[Sekia]

Its just the BETA after all they will be fixed, I don't hate them either I love all the classes ^.^ I think they will have some nifty combos to

[oldmantime]

yer hate is a strong word and im sure they'll be nerfed im talking about the idea of them :wink:

[shadow the hero]

i Like them, but i Hate that People says They are The Best Melee Unit in the game, and They Make Warriors and Sins Useless

[oldmantime]

i dont remember seeing a flawless victory in halls for 7 assasins and a necro before. in their current form they do make them both useless but that will definately be nerfed to hell and back.

[Sekia]

I think nerfed and fixed should have a different meaning >.>

I believe Anet will fix them not nerf them.

[oldmantime]

i just mean nerfed as in they will reduce the power of them i have faith that what they do will be balanced

[gwchi]

i know its just beta but i do 'hate' seeing how assassins are so gimped compared to the dervish.

what is with the crazy 48 health 6/8 ene per enchant ending attribute?

why does the paragon have 80al (ranged attacker), while the assassin only has 70al (melee)?

looks like anet is overcompensating the overall negativity towards the finalized factions professions.

[InvictusBlood]

I think it's funny how people are crying out that Dervishes are so unballanced. Their NEW. Nothing like them have come before them. Nobody complains about Paragons yet they are at least as good. The reason for this is that a Paragon is a basic support class which we know how to handle. In the case of Dervish, it requires some new thought on how to handle them so everybody calls for nerf.

Look, a basic e-denial build renders them nothing but weak warriors. SS tends to lay waist to them as well. I'm not saying they won't be nerfed a bit as I'm sure there is tweaking that needs done. I'm just saying that they are only dominating because people haven't learned how to handle them yet.

[katya]

I'd say give them a chance. There will be some balance issues to be adressed and there's still the (hopefully) PvE weekend to look forward to. All in all, I think they are currently a tad overpowered but given that this was a BETA they will be adjusted to be more inline with the other classes.

After all, that's what BETA events are for, no? To give more people the opportunity to test and evaluate and find combinations that the regular teams of testers cannot find.

I know in almost every software environment I've worked the end-users are the ones finding the most esoteric bugs and most innovative uses of the application. It just works that way because the more familiar you become with something the more difficult it is to move outside the familiar grooves.

[Slygar]

Since I'm never one to be afraid to express my opinion.. :P

I do think the whole idea behind Mysticism is awful. It really shoudl be changed to some other passive benefit, or severly toned down.

Anyways, isnt "mysticism" supposedly the realm of Monks?

[Arctus Redryn]

I found the Dervish profession concept unique, something I thought was not quite possible. Mysticism, the Avatars, and enchantments that should be removed are all interesting ideas.

All that is lacking is balance.

[InvictusBlood]

They aren't all that unbalanced, just new and something that people don't know how to handle yet (see my earlier post). As to mysticism being the realm of the Monk...read the Dervish's description, they are basically fighter monks. Look at their other attributes; Earth PRAYERS and Wind PRAYERS

[Goldfish God]

I like the way they're built around enchantments. Mysticism + short enchantments + enchantment removal skills.

e.g. irresistible strike remove 1 ench for unblock/evade effect, which then triggers the mysticism bonus.

It's not just about keeping up as many enchantments as possible, but also removing some or all of them to get some other effect, within your own control.

[oldmantime]

im gonna scream when someone else mentions balance, thats not the thread point ^^

[Zeke Ronin]

They aren't all that unbalanced, just new and something that people don't know how to handle yet (see my earlier post). As to mysticism being the realm of the Monk...read the Dervish's description, they are basically fighter monks. Look at their other attributes; Earth PRAYERS and Wind PRAYERS

I can handle them, blackout works wonders but just because you can counter them does not mean they are not unbalanced. What you have is a melee fighter thats attacks average 25, with 70 armor, that can do better aoe damage than an ele with fast cast times and that with the right build gain back the energy used plus health. So quit trying to sound like you are "leet" and just admit that they need some balancing. also no I dont hate them, i do find them annoying though.

[CMEPTb]

I love the Dervish class and can not wait for Nightfall to be released :grin:. I like their appearance and find the skills refreshing, something new. The only time I would probably show a dislike (at the least) for them would be in PvP with my necro, when I got too close :p. But that wouldv'e been my fault anyways :wink:.

[Cyador]

I think it's funny how people are crying out that Dervishes are so unballanced. Their NEW. Nothing like them have come before them. Nobody complains about Paragons yet they are at least as good. The reason for this is that a Paragon is a basic support class which we know how to handle. In the case of Dervish, it requires some new thought on how to handle them so everybody calls for nerf.
There is nothing particularly complicated about Dervishes that would make analysis of them difficult. Oh hmm, AoE, spread out, blah blah.

Look, a basic e-denial build renders them nothing but weak warriors. SS tends to lay waist to them as well. I'm not saying they won't be nerfed a bit as I'm sure there is tweaking that needs done. I'm just saying that they are only dominating because people haven't learned how to handle them yet.
You're telling me that a build that has 4 pips of energy, refunds 6 energy everytime they cast an AoE, and can spam cast Reversal of Fortune for a net gain of 3 energy is particularly vulnerable to energy denial? Have you even seen a D/Mo in-game, let alone played one?

[Nanashi]

i Like them, but i Hate that People says They are The Best Melee Unit in the game, and They Make Warriors and Sins Useless

I can tell ya right now, for the dmg build I have on my sin, my basic derv char was atleast keeping up which is scary. They have no chain attacks and yet they could keep up with the damage output of a sin. If that aint something to be worried about I don't know what is. Needless to say I'm not going around and complaining about it because we all know they're goingto be nerfed and fiddled with before release.

[Paul Pluto]

They're new and a bit different.

People don't like change.

People over react and overpowered beta chars. Who are overpowered to drum up interest in Nightfall.

This happened with the Sins and Rits on the last event, more so sins. And now they aren't an unfair class at all, in PvE at least you find a lot of dead ones!

Long live Dervish and so forth.

[Peddy]

They're new and a bit different.

People don't like change.

People over react and overpowered beta chars. Who are overpowered to drum up interest in Nightfall.

This happened with the Sins and Rits on the last event, more so sins. And now they aren't an unfair class at all, in PvE at least you find a lot of dead ones!

Long live Dervish and so forth.

I couldn't agree more. Anet will slap the Dervish in the face for being so strong, and not long after Nightfall release the people who own a wammo will be happy again because they were afraid of the Dervish taking over the tanking role.

[Aine]

Whatever's wrong with having 3 different kinds of tanks? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I HATE playing warrior. I've tried it many times, HATED it immensely. But sometime I just get tired of playing a support class. I tried out the Dervish and really liked it, melee fighting which takes more thought than "hack, slash, LOOK HOW UBER I AM!, rush, repeat".

Also, from a support class pov, it makes the game more interesting to have more than just W/Mo's to protect the front line. Certain enchants/spells would work better with one kind of tank than another. The tanks can play off eachother to cause more damage (like the casters already usually do).

I LOVE more variety in tanks, in whatever form. One isn't necessarily better than others, they're just different. Do different things, with different kinds of damages, with different strengths and weaknesses, which will only cause more inventive builds and teams.

[OsirisThain]

I think the Dervish Idea is Great.

So do most other people.

That's why I wont be making one:)

[Bobross]

What bothers me is that the Paragon seemed somewhat interesting as well (and possibly overpowered) but it was totally overshadowed by the broken Dervish skills dominating the weekend event. I spent the whole time either tweaking a powerful, boring and easy to play Dervish build, or coming up with counters to all the 3-4 Dervish teams I kept running into. Every time I tried to do something other than reacting to or playing a Dervish, I found myself losing a lot. Made it hard to test out the full range of either class, especially Paragon.

[Jahiri]

ye thats true, when i tried the ritualist in the pvp factions weekend, i also thought that they where healing way to good with there spirits.. but that didnt turn out that way.

[mesmered]

I faced quite a few dervish teams, some of which were ALL dervish, and what I found is that their aura skills are the only thing that bother me. I'm not really familiar with what happens because I didn't make one, but they just kinda stand there with their head bowed not doing anything, and you start taking wads of like, 67 damage at a time.

Most of the dervishes I fought fell after I ineptitude + empathied them, but somne of them started to cause massive damage without even attacking. I also found that shatter enchantment did next to nothing to hurt them, and their trasformation elite skills (like avatar of dwayna) couldn't be dispelled, despite my best efforts. Worse yet, these stances or enchantments or whatever cast so quickly its difficult to interrupt them.

I'd say the only thing I hate about the dervish is that certain skill combinations grant them a certain invincibility that is difficult to overcome. I ended up winning most times, but I eventually had to adopt an almost entirely anti-dervish skillset, something no pvp or pve team can afford in future. Thats just what I found anyway, I played on sunday so people had already perfected their builds. *shrugs*

[Raxxman]

Okay, what I hate is that I feel the class Dervish utterly failed to live up the concept Dervish.

The idea of the Dervish was a fast moving whirlwind of destruction, cutting a path of destruction through waves of enemies, while evading damage though skill and guile.

Kinda like a Ranger/Warrior/Assassin mix, using skills akin to lighting reflexes (but better buffed) to help evade incoming attacks. I was hoping that Dervish stances would allow you wriggle out of hexes (ala hex breaker) evade incoming attacks (so you're still vulnerable to a cunning warrior) and reap massive thumping spikes. You'd take more damage than a warrior if you were hit, but you'd have so many ways of avoiding the damage that a skilled dervish would be a nightmare to control.

What you get is a shameful joke of this concept. Most D/Mo's I saw weren't even using scythes, they were using swords and foci. They don't evade damage in the slightest they just heal over it.

[Puntarunt]

Okay, what I hate is that I feel the class Dervish utterly failed to live up the concept Dervish.

The idea of the Dervish was a fast moving whirlwind of destruction, cutting a path of destruction through waves of enemies, while evading damage though skill and guile.

Kinda like a Ranger/Warrior/Assassin mix, using skills akin to lighting reflexes (but better buffed) to help evade incoming attacks. I was hoping that Dervish stances would allow you wriggle out of hexes (ala hex breaker) evade incoming attacks (so you're still vulnerable to a cunning warrior) and reap massive thumping spikes. You'd take more damage than a warrior if you were hit, but you'd have so many ways of avoiding the damage that a skilled dervish would be a nightmare to control.

What you get is a shameful joke of this concept. Most D/Mo's I saw weren't even using scythes, they were using swords and foci. They don't evade damage in the slightest they just heal over it.

That's much the same sense I got from the Assassin, I imagined them being able to hide or dissappear from view and radars, but do to game mechanics, they were given shadow stepping instead. Personally, I was of the opinion "oh okay, that'll work to!"

[tommynj]

What is not to like about a Dervish but I can personally see people trying to tank and yanno they will give dervish a bad name aka asassin in pve. Only thing I hate about the Dervish concept is the lack of higher AL and yet Paragon gets 80 AL more than a caster and almost equivalent to a basic war ?????

[Servant of Kali]

Actually, i think Dervish can tank 3x better than warrior, so i dont see why Dervish shouldnt tank.

Of course, im talking about experienced Dervishes.

[Meagen]

I can handle them, blackout works wonders but just because you can counter them does not mean they are not unbalanced.

Ummm.... yes it *does*.

[shadow the hero]

Wow, Thread Necromancery!! ITS ALIVE!

[Unknown Hatred]

A Class Based on Enchantments? did you not SEE all the enchantment hate Nightfall is bringing.

oh, and Rend Enchantments FTW!

[Massacre]

Yeah. I don't nessecaily think they're twinky, I just hate that they can hit multiple targets w/o using a skill. Other classes have to make special builds to be able to do area damage, but a dervish just DOES it.

Based on my tests during the WPE, a Dervish with no runes using NO SKILLS can kill clumped enemies faster than a Triple Chop/Cyclone Ax warrior.

That, my friends, is Bad Game Design.

(to be fair, I suppose my beef is with scythes, not the class itself, but whatever.)

[Servant of Kali]

lol enchant hate? With the amount Dervishes can spam enchants? Oh, let's see a classic example of smite monk + dervish in pve. Wow someone is going to remove an enchantment from me... *shudders*

oh, and Rend Enchantments FTW!

It has 30sec recharge, and .. i think 3sec cast time. What exactly will this skill do to half of Dervishes? Oh wait, you will remove his 3 enchants, which will trigger ending effects and everyone in nearby range around the dervish will suffer from bleeding, cripple, suffer earth dmg, be set on fire, and vital boon will heal the dervish, upon which he can respam the skills.

Yea, Rend Enchants *shivers*

did you not SEE all the enchantment hate Nightfall is bringing.

Enchant removals are overestimated. To be effective you need more than 1-2 on your skill bar. What if the enemy uses 3 Dervishes, 1 Tainted necro, and you have like what, 1 rend enchants?

And what if you go with several enchant removals to counter 2-3 dervishes, and you run into a Paragon/Warrior/Beastmaster team? If they have zero enchants, you have several of skills pretty much useless, which is never good.

So many teams will go condition heavy, how many condition removals will you use?

And if few teams decide to counter the metagame and use tons of hexes (which i love and use whenever possible)? What, you gonna put few Expel Hexes as well?


That's why im very sceptical towards 'enchant removal'. But then again, only time will tell.

That, my friends, is Bad Game Design.

No it's not, it's a good and inventive map design.

First of all, did you notice Dervish has no shield? Did you notice that hammer warrior also has no shield? Now, did you notice that hammer attacks knock down target? Which is very powerful. Did you notice that most hammer attacks cause no energy.. you simply need to continue hitting? Did you notice that Dervish attack need energy, all of them, but then again they have +2e regen.

Did you notice that every half-decent pvp player wont stand near an ally while Dervish is on him?


And im not even going to discuss pve as pve is for relaxation and not balance

[MaximumSquid]

So long as their skills are balanced what could possibly be the problem with them?

[The Avatar]

well dervish with some support from the teammates monk's enchantments and their natural ability of healing + enchantment will make them better than warrior in melee.

[Servant of Kali]

So long as their skills are balanced what could possibly be the problem with them?

The problem is that skills are for the most part balanced for PvE.

You wont see a minion master build in top GvG, but you will see it often in PvE and it's overpowered.

In PvP you wont do aggro control and gather all enemy players around you, while monk is smitting off you. In PvE - you can.

btw im not expecting Dervishes to be as awesome in _Nightfall_. Im sure ANet will put Well of Profane on every monster and tons of other similiar skills. Factions was unfriendly towards both Assassins and Ritualist. These two professions were much stronger in Prophecies than Factions. I expect the same with Dervish. It will be ok in Nightfall, but in Prophecies and Factions, that class will rule. I was able to do Ice Caves of Sorrow and Moladune mission and bonus both, with uninfused henchies and few pugs (before the nerf). With Dervish, i look forward to do the same thing, just in a different way. I want to beat Mursaat without being infused. And i have an idea how to do it ;) Warrior? Yea.. i can laugh at warrior trying to do the same.

[Kjentei]

I really disagree with the OP.

i thought they might be a cool char class but the idea behind them seems all wrong to me, they're like a tanking warrior with an assassins damage output and condition causing in AOE, imo their damage needs to be reduced severely or they need to lose the ability to keep gaining health all the time (i'm not talking about the COP build, i'm just talking about the idea behind them)
I'm glad you said "like", however, the Dervish will generally not be able to tank like a warrior can, and generally not be able to match up to an assassin's direct damage output.

Besides, the Dervish hasn't been officially released yet so even if "you hate the idea of them", it's just the idea of them and you should wait until the release so you can reasonably judge the class.

[trafalgar-zero]

So long as their skills are balanced what could possibly be the problem with them?

People are just jealous. And for the most part are to lazy to look at the dervish skills and figure out what kills them. It's something new and obviously some don't like it. If you were around for official release, I remember Mesmers were hated (back then you could backfire anyone and get a kill) so much people cried nerf. Now the Dervish has only been peaked at and people are already crying nerf. Sorry if you guys are going to actually have to think in PvP and not be a brainless monkey in front of a lightup box. Changing content keeps games alive.

Dervish won't replace a tanking warrior. They lack the defense and skills that make the warrior great at it.
The AoE damage from the scythe isn't that great. It's not like using Cyclone Axe or Hundred Blades. But if you think about it, if a scythe isn't AoE than it just turns into a hammer without the ability to knock down.. kind of lame if you ask me.
And before anyone else says ONE MORE THING about the Dervish, they should take a look at the 55 monks and SS necros. Hypocrites to anyone with a 55 build and dare to criticize the Dervish.

[jamesmackswell]

dervishes just don't seem like something I would enjoy playing. I'm worried that dervishes will become the new suicide class once nightfall comes out and every mob in the game has enchantment removal.

[Servant of Kali]

however, the Dervish will generally not be able to tank like a warrior can, and generally not be able to match up to an assassin's direct damage output.

You're right. He wont match it. He will outmatch it. Im talking about PvE. PvP is more or less balanced.