Questioning the Meta

[Daniel Giterman]

Currently, the GW flag running metagame is composed of either heal party air/water eles, or cripple shot rangers - with the former being the more defensive option.

In my opinion, the crip shot ranger is the more inefficient choice because he is utterly worthless to the team while actually running. If we measure the strength of a team by its overall energy regeneration (let's ignore warriors as they are relatively static variables), then we can see that ANY time in which one of your team mates is not using his energy to its best advantage is a waste. When a crip shot ranger is running, he is not helping his team in any way whatsover. His energy is at maximum and thus the regeneration might as well be 0. Though the heal party elementalist is better in this sense, it is also inefficient. Heal Party is situational and energy intensive - and you cannot well stop every 5 seconds to cast a 2 second heal party.

So how is it possible to channel the energy of a runner into the overall strength of the team? Well, the often overlooked (and ridiculed) spell called Succor is a good example. It is a maintained enchantment in which target ally gains one hp/energy regen at the price of 1 energy loss per spell cast to the maintainer of the enchantment. Assuming reversal of fortune hits a 30 damage attack, it provides a 70+42+60=172 hp heal. It costs 7 energy. This means that an additional 1 pip of energy is equivelant to an extra 7 energy every 21 seconds.

If upkept on two boon prots, the caster is in effect channeling his energy into the monks directly. He does not have to actively do this, but instead it is upkept passively as he continues to run. Considering a mantra of recall boon prot has an energy regen equivelant to approximately 4.8 pips, adding two pips overall is almost like addingh half of another boon prot.

In terms of strict numerical calculation, assuming heal party hits 6 party members, it heals approximately 300 hp for 15 energy. Against constant dps in the form of conditions or hexes, heal party is clearly the better choice (especially on a prodigy). However, succored boon prots are useful against any form of team except a pure spike.

But what if you add the, again, often overlooked P&H into the equation?

My guild currently runs a very powerful backline that has so far been utterly resilient to almost any form of offense imaginable. With the except of diversion, which we deal with through external methods, our monks are flexible enough to be able to adapt and yet strong enough so stand their ground even against the most brutal pressure.

Monk number 1 is: Boon Signet, Reversal of Fortune, Mend Ailment, Prot Spirit, Divine Boon, CoP, Balanced Stance, and a spare.

Monk number 2 is: Boon signet, Reversal of Fortune, Mend Ailment, Guardian, Divine BOon, CoP, Balanced Stance, and a spare.

(15 divine, 11 prot, 10 tactics)

(Our current build does not run hex removals on the monks because we do not need to - we are naturally nearly immune to hexes. For normal builds, the spare will probably be holy veil or remove hex or so)

Both monks use the +10 while enchanted armor, and a +45 hp, 2 aborpstion while enchanted shield. This gives the monks in 86 natural AL - blunting the effects of warrior damage. (not to mention giving 500 hp).

Our runner is completely weird.

He primary skills are: P&H, Watchful Spirit, Succor, CoP, and Blessed Signet. The other three can be orison, some prot, a run skill, a rez signet, etc.

The runner can maintain succor and P&H on both of our boon prots, giving them 5 energy regeneration each. Also, combined with divine boon they each have 3 enchantments on them constantly - thus guarenteeing a 6 energy boon signet.

The advantages to this set up over the normal one are immense:

Whereas a mantra of recall boon prot has an energy regen equal to 4.8 pips or so, our monks have an energy regen of exactly 8 pips (5 pips + 6energy/6seconds from signet). This is not counting the +1 hp regen and +35 hp/6 seconds from boon signet, which translates to a +4 constant regen equivelant. Balanced Stance + A shield allows us to skirt a lot of the pressure that would otherwise destroy a classic monk - that is, bull's strike spamming eviscerate warriors (or even hammer warriors/thumpers).

Our boon prots can spam their Reversals longer than you would believe posssible - while simultaneously skirting deadly knockdowns and huge axe crits (as well as the well timed gale). With divine boon as a cover to succor/P&H, they are not as susceptible as you would think to enchantment removal (this is made even less of a factor in our current build). A CoP, while annoying since it kills Succor/P&H, is increased in strength to the point where it is a full heal/removal.

The runner is a soft target, but wathcful spirit + COP allows a holy veilesque type of delayed huge heal while runnign to cap the flag. At VoD or a forced 8v8, the runner can switch to a hardcore healer (orison spam) so as to complement our defense even more.

Furthermore, our runner is very self reliant as he is a monk, and thus will not be subject to death by enemy runners.

The disadvanatage to this is forced cohesion - the runner can never stray out of radar range of the monks. This is a problem in some Guild Halls, but on Nomad's Isle (our GH), it is easily forgotten. Even if he does stray out of radar range, though, P&H is still upkept. Also, our runner has no offensive qualities. This is balanced though, by allowing us to run 5 purely offensive characters (because our backline is so powerful already).

We have, so far, outside of Lag/error 7, never lost to a pressure team with this.

One weakness: DIVEVERSION. The constant spam of boon signet really makes diversion a dangerous opponent, and many times it has forced a retreat. We have adapted our build though and now diversion is no problem as it is guarenteed to be interrupted EVERY SINGLE TIME (unless glyph of sac but lol), even with distortion active.

[sahlakh]

This may sound a bit harsh, but I think the idea is horrible for a few reasons.

1) Flag runner without any offense is extremely weak even if it's a monk. Good guilds will grief your runner like there's no tomorrow.

2) Monks without real energy management are bad. You can argue that they get 2 extra pips from succor & pnh, but that's not enough, and even if it was, enchantments are easily stripped -- and your monks use cop.

3) That char is extremely useless when it's not running flags.

Let's compare that monk runner which can help the monks in the main battle with two extra pips IN THEORY to a typical e/mo flagger which can;

1) Heal the whole party with heal party
2) Protect the whole party with aegis
3) Remove conditions from the whole party with extinguish
4) Play defensively by snaring enemies
5) Play offensively by snaring and assisting spikes
6) Be somewhat self-sufficient and run flags quite fast

Which of the two would you choose?

[Daniel Giterman]

Without real energy management? How about boon signet, which at full power is nearly DOUBLE the energy management of a mantra of recall?

Ele runners don't have aegis. Extinguish is now a (nearly) useless skill with the advent of Song of Purification. Heal party is against pressure - it doesn't actually do any sort of focussed healing.

If by griefing you mean spiking when he tries to stick in the flag - this runner is far more resistant to that than yours. If by griefing you mean harrasment with splits - well, a monk with orison, watchful spirit + cop, etc is FAR more self sufficient than a healing breeze ele.

I already described that unless they run rend enchantments/gaze of contempt, divine boon serves as a cover for the enchantments which will be put on again once the runner comes around if they're gone anyway.

Two extra pips is not only what this runner does. Indirectly - he allows the monks to use a shield and use a full power boon signet. These monks are NEARLY TWICE as energy filled as mantra of recall monks and have a shield/balanced stance BESIDES. This is only possible due to the runner.

Edit: This is not "In Theory". We have tried this with great success.

[Parker Bsb]

Boon signet is a horrible skill in competetive PvP. To get a decent return on it you have to spam it nearly evey time it's recharged which doesn't leave you much time for any other healing.

Granted you'll have 2 more pips with P&H and succor but now you've wasted 3 elites on absolute rubbish emanagement.

I do like the idea of succor altho then your monks have to stay within minimap of you or its' gone as well... and to be honest in a 2 monk backline using booners or blighters emanagement seems to be fine as it is.

[sahlakh]

Without real energy management? How about boon signet, which at full power is nearly DOUBLE the energy management of a mantra of recall?

I meant real energy management, like mantra of recall and drain enchantment.


Ele runners don't have aegis. Extinguish is now a (nearly) useless skill with the advent of Song of Purification. Heal party is against pressure - it doesn't actually do any sort of focussed healing.

Our ele support runner uses all the skills I listed above with great success.


If by griefing you mean spiking when he tries to stick in the flag - this runner is far more resistant to that than yours. If by griefing you mean harrasment with splits - well, a monk with orison, watchful spirit + cop, etc is FAR more self sufficient than a healing breeze ele.

What I meant was that when you use a monk as a flagger, the opposing players have nothing to be afraid of, can slow the running process as much as they want. If you honestly think that 20% slower monk with one energy pip is more resistant than a 'healing breeze' ele with blinding flash and snares, I don't know what to think.


I already described that unless they run rend enchantments/gaze of contempt, divine boon serves as a cover for the enchantments which will be put on again once the runner comes around if they're gone anyway.

Two extra pips is not only what this runner does. Indirectly - he allows the monks to use a shield and use a full power boon signet. These monks are NEARLY TWICE as energy filled as mantra of recall monks and have a shield/balanced stance BESIDES. This is only possible due to the runner.

No comment.


Edit: This is not "In Theory". We have tried this with great success.

I've also tested that hencies pwn in top50 with great success.

[thedrjay]

I would frankly force your build to split.

[Daniel Giterman]

Granted that boon signet's weakness is that it must be spammed. However, I don't understand How you can call it absolute rubbish emangament when one of my monks, altogether, regenerates 160 energy in one minute, while a mantra of recall regenerates 97 and an energy drain monk (given 40% faster recharge) generates 93 (assuming he always drains the full 8). Ether prodigy/energy drain*2 is still 3 elites on energy management - it's just that MY three elites are more efficient. EDIT: Channel more energy into the monks instead of into the runner.

Boon signet is very powerful given a guarenteed 6 energy gain. Even casting it every 10 seconds instead of 6 is superior to mantra or e-drain. FURTHERMORE - what will you do under shame/backfire, etc? Boon signet can still be cast harmlessly. Furthermore, it evades a mesmers e-surge/burn. A smart mesmer will INSTANTLY burn or surge you after you cast mantra (since that means it just ended) or e-drain. Boon signet's constant returns followed by a reversal make it a nightmare for the mesmer to do anything. And furthermore you are ignoring the beneficial aspects of balanced stance and a shield.

I meant real energy management, like mantra of recall and drain enchantment.


I don't understand how you differentiate the two.



Our ele support runner uses all the skills I listed above with great success.


Shall I assume Deep freeze, Ether prodigy, heal party, aegis, extinguish, rez signet, blinding flash, armor of mist, and healing breeze?

Ouch on the 5 attributes.

Your runner is fine, though not the e/mo I would use. I am simply making a case describing the beneficial aspects of mine. Notice that many of your skills do not do ANYTHING while you are actually running.


What I meant was that when you use a monk as a flagger, the opposing players have nothing to be afraid of, can slow the running process as much as they want. If you honestly think that 20% slower monk with one energy pip is more resistant than a 'healing breeze' ele with blinding flash and snares, I don't know what to think.


How would they slow it? By snaring him? Or by splitting into our base (the best strategy). Your arguement is irrrelevant because runners are not offensive chars by definition. At best they are support snaring.

I would frankly force your build to split.

This is true, but it wouldn't accomplish as much as you think as we would split defensively - thus still maintaining all said enchantments.

[Aiiane]

On a quick note, don't doublepost (edit: or triplepost... but I'll let Parker deal with it) - up to an hour after your last post, you can edit it instead using the button in the lower-right corner of the post.


Shall I assume Deep freeze, Ether prodigy, heal party, aegis, extinguish, rez signet, blinding flash, armor of mist, and healing breeze?

Ouch on the 5 attributes.

sel didn't specifically state all of them at once, however, there are quite viable builds that use up to 5 of those at a time - Extinguish doesn't necessarily need points in prot, and deep freeze doesn't need points in water.

One example build, Shard Storm, Ice Spikes, Deep Freeze, Blurred Vision, Ether Prodigy, Heal Party, Extinguish, choice of self-heal (Healing Breeze, Heal Area, etc)


Your runner is fine, though not the e/mo I would use. I am simply making a case describing the beneficial aspects of mine. Notice that many of your skills do not do ANYTHING while you are actually running.

Not every skill needs to do something while running, if all of the energy generated while running can be harnessed by 1-2 skills - for instance, Extinguish, Aegis, and/or Heal Party, especially the latter.

Also, due to an elementalist's large energy pool, it's possible to come to the stand, use up a large amount of that pool in a front-loaded damage/snare/support burst, and then regen it while running.


How would they slow it? By snaring him? Or by splitting into our base (the best strategy). Your arguement is irrrelevant because runners are not offensive chars by definition. At best they are support snaring.
Not necessarily. I and others have run some extremely offensive-minded running builds, and it's mainly just a function of how it fits into the rest of the build.

You bring up some good points, but not all of them are necessarily true.

[Daniel Giterman]

On a quick note, don't doublepost (edit: or triplepost... but I'll let Parker deal with it) - up to an hour after your last post, you can edit it instead using the button in the lower-right corner of the post.

Sorry.


sel didn't specifically state all of them at once, however, there are quite viable builds that use up to 5 of those at a time - Extinguish doesn't necessarily need points in prot, and deep freeze doesn't need points in water.

One example build, Shard Storm, Ice Spikes, Deep Freeze, Blurred Vision, Ether Prodigy, Heal Party, Extinguish, choice of self-heal (Healing Breeze, Heal Area, etc)


Though this runner is indeed effective, I dislike its near-monopoly in the Gvg meta. The snaring is powerful, as well as the Heal Party spam vs degen teams. My runner is effective in a different way - that is, increasing the effectiveness of our monks and making creative (ie. Balanced Stance), non mesmer secondaries possible.

I guess it is preference - and I make a case why one could prefer mine in certain builds. Clearly, this is not black/white.




Not every skill needs to do something while running, if all of the energy generated while running can be harnessed by 1-2 skills - for instance, Extinguish, Aegis, and/or Heal Party, especially the latter.

Also, due to an elementalist's large energy pool, it's possible to come to the stand, use up a large amount of that pool in a front-loaded damage/snare/support burst, and then regen it while running.


That's true.

[thedrjay]

This is true, but it wouldn't accomplish as much as you think as we would split defensively - thus still maintaining all said enchantments.

The disadvanatage to this is forced cohesion - the runner can never stray out of radar range of the monks. This is a problem in some Guild Halls, but on Nomad's Isle (our GH), it is easily forgotten. Even if he does stray out of radar range, though, P&H is still upkept. Also, our runner has no offensive qualities. This is balanced though, by allowing us to run 5 purely offensive characters (because our backline is so powerful already).

You either are going to give up NPC's which will weaken you at VOD or Give up the flag stand. If you are pulling your runner back to assist with the defensive team, then you are conceding the flag stand. If you continue to run flags then 1 monk (the one who is not in range) will lose out on the benefits of the maintained enchantments, therby weakening that portion of the split squad. That portion of the split squad is the targetted and destroyed.

[deathy]

most of your argument is flawed simply because you don't understand the builds and ideas of a flag runner in the current meta game

as to your build, its a great idea....


...until you actually go to get the flag and everyone loses the enchants....

if you are that worried about getting energy to your monk then maybe blood ritual or blood is power? (although i wouldn't reccomend)

[Daniel Giterman]

First of all, telling me that my arguemetn is flawed because I don't "understand the builds and ideas of a flag runner in the current meta game", is not an arguement - it's a smear.

Second, P&H remains even if you are out of radar range.

Now: thedrjay. You make it sound as if our monks are utterly helpless without succor. Furthermore, we can split just as well as anyone. We will NOT give up the flag stand just as we will NOT give up the NPCs. We will split defensively so as to ensure that we can continue capping and also protect home base.

This works particularly well in NOmad's isle, where all the GvGs against higher ranked teams are done (For us).

Even in warrior's isle it is possible to maintain succor on both splits, though hard. P&H, however, will remain.

Splitting is always annoying, as my builds have a tendancy for interdependance. It is the best weapon, but it is not a guarenteed win. It would simply (AT BEST) detain SUCCOR on one monk. Hardly game breaking.

[Hendrixbrother]

I'm very sorry to bash this build, because it looks like you've put a lot of thought into it, but unfortunately I feel you have not considered all the elements.

The first problem you have is that the flag runner is very vulnerable. He would easily be soloed by any kind of ganker, be it an assassin, cripshot, or warrior. Without snares/interrupts/disables etc. he would be a sitting duck. You're virtually forced to send another character to support your runner in these situations, and that decreases your efficiency at the stand; what you were trying to achieve in the first place.

Secondly, Succor won't work for you on the majority of maps when you're running the flag. If you run to get the flag you will run out of range of your monks and the maintained enchantments will drop. The monk will then be forced to recast Succor whenever he comes in to cap the flag if you want it maintained, something that is not really energy efficient.

Also, you don't have heal party in this situation. Assuming everything you described works exactly as planned, your monks will have an additional 40 energy every minute. When facing a degen team without heal party, they will spend far more energy trying to keep each individual party member healed than they could possibly gain. If they're spending upwards of 10 seconds per minute using boon signet, that's 10 seconds they are not healing. This will catch up to them very quickly as without heal party you're going to need to be spamming constant heals.

Another drawback to the time spent casting boon signet has to do with when the monks are being warrior-trained. The Edrain monk has only to stop for 1 second, get hit maybe once, and continue on in order to net significant energy. For that same energy, assuming full return on the boon signet (which is hardly guaranteed), the monk would have to stop and cast his boon signet 3 times, each time taking additional damage/kd/conditions. When facing a heavy pressure build, this could easily lead to a death.

[Parker Bsb]

Lets see Boon = 1 second cast + 1 sec aftercast, for 6 energy and 33 health.

I monk alot in GvG's and I can tell you my biggest issue is not with energy but time.

In a standard minute, Edrain could be casted 2.4 times (let's just use 2 for the sake of ease). Netting 32 energy and costing 4 seconds of downtime (cast + after cast)

To keep in line with that, boon would need to be cast >5 times which = 10 seconds downtime. Since we are looking at it strictly from emanagement we can skip the argument about killing their energy (and thus preventing more damage in the long run) vs small heal.

If we get lucky on our edrain we can cast it a 3rd time which means youll have to cast boon sig a whopping 8 times - that's more than 25% of your time spamming boon sig just to keep up with edrain in terms of emanagement.

When are you gonna have time to actually prevent spikes etc?

[Daniel Giterman]

I think this is the most valid criticism so far, but it does have some oversights.

About the ganked soloing - it is not as easy as it sounds. A monk with potentially 5 regen and healing spells is not that easy to kill - I've done this. If we send another char for support we equalize the situation at the flag stand and have a 2v1 advantage against their ganker - not exactly inefficient.

The second is true - succor will not work in Warrior's Isle and its replicas. However, this still leaves P&H which is formidable by itself - and thus the monk has full energy regen for keepign himself alive. On our GH, tohugh, it works like a charm - and since that's where you fight the higher ranked guilds I deem it a fair tradeoff.

Technically it would be more than 40 energy per minute, according to my calculations. And the long casting of boon signet is balanced my the 1/4 of reversal of fortune. Cast time isn't really a problem.

That same e-drain monk will be rushed -> bull's striked, then evisceerated, execed, devastated, crushed, heavied, etc. The shield/stance I think more than makes up for boon signet's spammability, in terms of warrior defense. I personally have tanked 3 thumpers with their pets using a monk like this - just basically standing there. I had watch yourself on me combined with shielding hands. (yay 3 damage no kd devastating hammer) The tainted triple thumper team was laughable - and they were in the < 200 range too.

But yes - outside of Nomad's Isle and few others, succor is painful to upkeep. That is the biggest problem and almost by iteslf negates a lot of the advantages of this. I submit this weakness to you. HP doesn't work out of radar range too :).

Parker:

I thought aftercast was 0.75? Also, energy drain nets 11 energy with a 5 energy input cost. It is not without its own disadvantages. If getting surged/burned it can delay e-drain as opposed to signet. Also, the wonderful thing about signet is that you can chose wether to use it or not! For example: Two boon signets = one e drain. That is 3.5 seconds of casting time against 1.75 (disregarding time taken to target the proper enemy which is probably in the area of 0.5 seconds). This means that boon signet is not that far behind e-drain in time/energy efficiency. If you are being killed by 2 spike warriors you are OBVIOUSELY not going to cast boon signet - you are going to run. The warriors will be useless (balanced ftw) and your comradre will continue healing. Boon signet allows flexibility of choice - you can manage wether you want energy vs time yourself. To upkeep with e drian you only need to use it every 12 seconds, but you can always use it every 6 :).

I find 1/4 reversals awesome.

EDIT: Also: three warriors death charging you (or atleast two) is becoming more common. More armor and balanced stance is the best preventative.

[Hendrixbrother]

There is a fundamental difference between heal party being radar range and succor being radar range. The difference is that heal party affects all party members within radar range whereas succor ends when not in radar range of party members. That means that heal party will have ~10-15 seconds of downtime, whereas Succor will only be up around 50% of the time.

EDIT: After cast is 3/4 seconds yes.

[Parker Bsb]

Err yeah I knew I missed something there... .75 aftercast (I blame my headcold!)

BTW in GvG I carry a +10 def sword, and a sheild so realistically the only difference is I get kd'd wheras you wouldn't.

So here's my question - you have balanced, watch yourself, sheilding hands, divine boon, and ROF... assuming you have boon (which BTW makes your sig cost 2 dropping your net gain to 4 effectivly making it 3 casts per edrain again)... where do you fit your hex / condition removal plus anti spike skills?

[Daniel Giterman]

Good idea on the + defense on sword. I didn't use that, so now my defense will reach approximately 91. (not including watch yourself). Also: you complained about time. Doesn't not being kded make up for more time spamming boon signet? KD is a time waster, afterall. Especially since you can choose when to spam but cannot choose when you get kded?

Boon doesn't affect boon signet! If it did then this would be crap!

Also the build we run currently has no active hex removal, as it is a gimmick that incorporates orders + CoP. This leaves room on the monks for shielding hands. (also watch yourself doesn't have to be on my skillbar; it can be on any char).

Anti spike skills are RoF? what else on a boon prot? Don't tell me Divine Intervention!

Hendrixbrother: Yes I understand that fundamental difference. And I have conceded that point in the argument. The only way to bypass it is to play on Nomad's Isle, which we do.

[deathy]

Divine boon doesnt cost 2 energy with signet of devotion, u sure it does with boon signet?

[Savsuds]

OP,

Balanced Stance is nice, I have seen Pick Up Group (PuG) use it to frustrate opposing shock warriors. But what do you do, when you do not see the knockdown coming? You cannot stay in balanced stance forever and you cannot watch every member of the attacking party. Gale, Shock, Backbreaker from different possible attackers can be near impossible to catch in time, if played correctly.

The main problem I think you are not seeing is that ANY CoP build team wise is always going to be partly dependent on the other members of your team performing their jobs. Having your monk's energy management reliant on other people can be dangerous and not able to adapt to a greater variety of opponents you will face. Performing their job in the case of splits is not possible with the same degree of effectiveness.

You mentioned that you play splits defensively. Well that is good, but the opposing team will be able to kill an NPC or 2 before you can properly react as a group of 8. Over time they will probably go into VoD with a decent to significant NPC advantage. Additionally, their flag runner will probably have an easy time capping the flag stand while you retreat to handle their offensive split. The same cannot be said of your flag runner, that requires alot more team support to survive against the other team's flagger.

Yes, you do run a guild hall to help shorten the amount of times you lose your runner enchants. But if your guild is reasonably successful winning percentage wise, your rank will increase, meaning you will not be playing on that map as often (<50%).

I seriously doubt the ability of your team to consistently shut down diversion spam, but I could be wrong. Your main way to deal with mesmers is to have a dedicated person interrupt the mesmer casting diversion, but what if they have 2-3 mesmers? How does it deal with Shame, Blackout, etc. Your Monks will not normally be prepared to quickly recover after they CoP off their enchanments, and that is assuming the runner is nearby and not getting another flag. The runner has to have enough energy to cast Succor, PnH, etc. You rarely have the energy when you need it, against decent teams. Let's assume you do have energy to recast after CoPing, the recharge on succor is about 10s, PnH is what 20-30s? Also until your enchants are back up, using Boon Signet will not help you to gain energy.

[Daniel Giterman]

Balanced stance can be upkept over half the time. Anytime I see warriors approaching me in any way, I will hit balanced stance. This prevents knockdowns/crits and usually has them going off on another target which is fine by me as I can continue spamming my signet. If they stay on me usually their attacks are fruitless. The recharge can give troubles vs a good team - but what doesn't?

You are right that this is very interdependant, and that is its weakness. About VoD: My build is setup such as that we gain huge advantages when we are together - to the extent that if VoD comes and we are not at 30% lower morale we can usually make a breakthrough. Nomad's Isle is very good for defensive splitting.

No we don't run a guild hall that shortens the amount of runner enchants - we run a GH that eliminates that time :). Succor does not ever fail on NOmad's Isle, unless we are in their base and the flag runner is at ours.

A diversion that gets lucky on the cast time still stands a high chance of being interrupted, and a normal diversion, at around 2 seconds, is almost a guarentee. No one runs more than 2 diversions, and we currently have the resources to stop FOUR diversion spammers. (I prefer to use those to pressure monks though). I don't want to post the build because that would require even more arguementation/justification - maybe later. CoP is rarely used because hexes cannot get through this system with much frequency, and if they do they are usually the weaker ones that aren't a bother. (NO we don't use Nature's Renewal) We also run orders which fuel signet by themselves.

Yes you are right about Nomad's Isle decreasing in frequency as we win. Currently we are 450 due to some retarded CoP D/mo spiking which hurt our rank, :banghead: but after we start GvGing again it stabilize. As we are a fun guild, I don't have any illusions about hitting the top 100 or so. Still, if we can keep in the 200-300 range with a relaxed base of players, I think it's a good achievement.

[dikken]

How about a W/Mo (yes i know... but dont judge yet).

Give him succor. He puts succor on the 2 monks. Rest are adrenaline skills, preferably axe or sword i think, and Battle Rage elite. Take rush instead of sprint. You can even give him that signet, i think it's purge signet if you want some more hex removal. Since he has no energy anyway, it won't affect him...

Just an idea...
Greetz

PS: The metagame is the metagame because it's good. Most other things have been tested and proven worse... I don't mean you can't be creative, but you should take into account every possible situation, certainly in GvG.

[deya]

After monking in ~zillion highend gvg's, I can say that boon signet got big downside - you need to be casting _a_lot_, a lot more than you would want to. You can defend your opinions as far as you want, but it's a FACT it isn't quite as good as you think.

[William of Orange]

Deya - You say it's a fact that it's not as good as you think, but I seriously doubt that you have run the exact build that we run, so where is your basis for saying ours is ineffective?

Savsuds - Shame? I've handled it. Blackout? I've handled it before and after its nerf. Diversion obviously presents a big problem, BUT I have gone for the full duration of a Diversion on my Boon Sig without letting a member of our team die. You doubt the ability to quickly recover after CoPing off our enchantments? As a Boon Prot, you are already used to the 3 pips of energy regen with the upkeep of Divine Boon, so if you happen to lose Succor and P&H, what's the big deal? Although your instant energy gain will be less than that were we using MoR or Energy Drain, we don't have to wait for MoR to recharge to be able to manage our energy levels with the most efficiency. Our Monks are more resilient than have been given credit for; against a higher ranked guild running an extremely well timed Ranger Spike, I have survived multiple spikes, while still being able to heal others as they switch targets.

Opposing flag runners have not had as easy of a time capping the Stand as you think. And as if other flag runners don't need support? If things are getting done the way they should be, that flag runner will be needing support, as your offensive players should be collapsing on that player. Crip Shot Rangers with Whirling Defense or other such stances? Wild Blow. E/Mo using Armor of Mist/Windborne Speed? A successful body block, along with focused pressure, should be able to handle that, and there's always KD's/Crippling.

Skill explanation for Divine Boon:
"While you maintain this Enchantment, whenever you cast a Monk Spell that targets an ally, that ally is healed for 25...61 points, and you lose 2 energy." Boon Signet is exactly how it sounds like; a Signet. Therefore, no -2 energy, it's all gain, the healing with it is basically irrelevant, since it's so small and it's not the reason it's used. Otherwise, yes, it would be crap.

[David Holtzman]

Deya - You say it's a fact that it's not as good as you think, but I seriously doubt that you have run the exact build that we run, so where is your basis for saying ours is ineffective?

Considering Deja is one of the more experiences players in GW GvG, you would be wise to heed his advice. If he tells you you're going to be spending too much time casting it, chances are you will. You can still run whatever you want of course, but I personally would pay close attention. There's a reason iB is getting free travel in two weeks.

[severed]

OP, some pickings for your perusal:

In my opinion, the crip shot ranger is the more inefficient choice because he is utterly worthless to the team while actually running.

Some very successful teams run both cripshotters and emos. These can swap flagrunning duties as dictated by the situation - for example, against heavy pressure the emo(s) could stay near the flagstand for HP while cripshot runs, and against spiky and/or mobile teams the cripshot interrupts and catches gankers.

Heal Party is situational and energy intensive - and you cannot well stop every 5 seconds to cast a 2 second heal party.

Ether Prodigy is arguably the most powerful single character contained energy engine in the game, so the cost of HP is largely irrelevant to an emo. I doubt that boonprots alone (or even supported by PnH and Succor) could keep up with heavy degen as effectively as a single emo. Boonprots are also easier to disrupt than a HP spammer, since they need to be closer to the fighting.

It's somewhat difficult to judge the overall effectiveness of your team's defense, since details are missing. One thing though - 2x Mend Ailment isn't terribly effective. I'd rather go for Mend Condition, since the booners have CoP anyways for emergency self-removal.

(15 divine, 11 prot, 10 tactics)

I hope your booners also have a minor divine rune for swapping against spikes or when DP'd. If you're using PvP chars, going minor is almost always a better choice for increased spike resilience.

Both monks use the +10 while enchanted armor, and a +45 hp, 2 aborpstion while enchanted shield.

While enchanted sounds good on paper, but decent spike teams often have strong enchantment removal. Losing the extra HP and protection at a critical moment - just before an incoming spike - can actually be worse than having a constant bonus to HP, for example. I personally prefer to have 625 HP than a bit more (unreliable) armor when monking against spikes. Watch yourself is a good defensive option, though.

The runner is a soft target, but wathcful spirit + COP allows a holy veilesque type of delayed huge heal while runnign to cap the flag.

You should never, ever, ever push the flag in with a soft target if there's any danger of getting harassed. A soft runner with no self-defense skill (such as Distortion) is not properly equipped to do flag pushes in combat. Good teams will KD, snare and bodyblock the runner like no tomorrow - and if a team really wants to force a boost, they'll send someone far behind your lines or into your base after the runner.

In general, the "softness" of an emo runner in flag push situations is irrelevant, since the flag should be given to a harder target.

Furthermore, our runner is very self reliant as he is a monk, and thus will not be subject to death by enemy runners.

What about characters designed for harassing duties, such as cripshots and assassins? Or even a warrior pushing past your backline?

IMO it's a mistake to assume that an emo runner would come after your runner, except for some snaring when your flagger is coming to the flagstand. Usually it's someone else.

Though the Emo runner is indeed effective, I dislike its near-monopoly in the Gvg meta.

Is "disliking" really a valid reason to purposefully avoid effective character builds? At the very least you should do a practical (not only statistical) comparison of the various backline options.

About Boon Signet - I somewhat understand your reasons for using a Monk e-management elite so that you can go warrior secondary. There are other options however - Mesmer secondary for Distortion is quite decent anti-spike defense (works against ranger spike too), and allows a Mesmer elite.

It does sound like you've put a lot of thought into your build, so I'd like to reserve any judgement until more details are brought forward. But currently the build sounds somewhat unwieldy with poor (offensive?) splitting ability, a soft flagrunner, and (minor?) dependancy on a certain Guild Hall. High defense on the monks alone (again, impossible to know without seeing the build itself) won't matter all that much versus good teams that target other softies instead to make your monks expend their energy.

[neoflame]

I think the problem with this thread is that most of the people arguing against OP are arguing from a high-end perspective (where anything that can be thrown at you will) whereas the OP has already stated that he expects his guild to be rank 200-300, where there is obviously a lot more leeway for suboptimal building. In this case, sure, something like this might work most of the time for your expected rank, but what's the disadvantage of running something far less vulnerable to something as trivial as Diversion, hex spam on your warriors, and Shock for the 50% of the time you don't have Balanced Stance up?
Deya - You say it's a fact that it's not as good as you think, but I seriously doubt that you have run the exact build that we run, so where is your basis for saying ours is ineffective?
The fact that he's going to Leipzig?

[Symbolic Self]

Since when do signets have an aftercast?

[William of Orange]

While I respect the fact that Reya is experienced, that does not mean that just because what they say goes. From my own personal experiences running the build, we have managed it very well, and hold our own against the "elite/professional" guilds we have faced. And that means much more to me than the opinion of anybody else out there.

[David Holtzman]

While I respect the fact that Reya is experienced, that does not mean that just because what they say goes. From my own personal experiences running the build, we have managed it very well, and hold our own against the "elite/professional" guilds we have faced. And that means much more to me than the opinion of anybody else out there.

What rank is your guild?

[deya]

While I respect the fact that Reya is experienced, that does not mean that just because what they say goes. From my own personal experiences running the build, we have managed it very well, and hold our own against the "elite/professional" guilds we have faced. And that means much more to me than the opinion of anybody else out there.

When you follow "elite/professional" monks, they're on the move all the time. Atleast 90% of the GvG kills are some sort of damage spikes, and if you want to save people against spikes, you need to be able to cast spells. I think it's more than stupid to run something which requires you to sit down and cast every ?6? seconds when you're running low on energy? Meanwhile you're, sitting duck for enemy warriors and that alone makes more pressure for your team than what you can get out of the boon signet. With this ranger/thumper metagame going on it is nowhere near close to the best energy management for a monk for sure.

Sure you could find your guild from rank200-300, I can't argue about since I have no experience how things work there - but if you're aiming for higher, just stick to monk builds which allows you to kite as much as possible.

[ZiegDivine]

William, I don't have much gvg experience, so you don't have to treat my words as gold, but you're welcome to question the metagame. If you get into top 50 or higher with the build that you're running right now, trust me the metagame will change a little bit, because people will see you running it on obs mode. Until then, you really will have a hard time proving that your build is great, and that it can change the metagame.

[William of Orange]

Zieg - As I believe Daniel stated in an earlier post, we're more of a casual guild, so we're not aiming for top 50 or anything like that. I have watched battles among highly ranked guilds, and seeing the ingenuity that some of those guilds make (other than just running random FoTM) they deserve their position 100%. Us, on the other hand, are perfectly content with having our rank as high as it can be without sacrificing the "funness" if you will.

As for Monks constantly moving during GvG, yes, I do realize that this is the case. Yes, Boon Signet does make it so that you have to stop for a small period of time and cast it, finish the aftercast, and keep moving. However, that is just about the only time I ever stop moving. If we're completely in the backlines with no pressure on us possible, then yes, I will be more stationary. As is common knowledge, attention to detail on the battlefield is extremely important, and can make or break whether your team succeeds or fails. Keeping that in mind, the second I notice any pressure, I drop the casting of Boon Signet, and begin my damage mitigation tactics. Therefore, I'm left with out the 1/4 casts from our Protection Prayers (unless I happen to be running Guardian, then it's a whopping 1 second at most). Casting time is reduced, and I have yet to meet an offensive character who has stuck on me long enough to totally drain me of energy.

By the way, yes, the prevalence of Thumpers is always an interesting battle to go against. But then again, Balanced Stance + Guardian after the Stance is down = hilarity at frustrated Thumpers/Shock Warriors/Gale Eles. Yes, Gale Eles are harder to pick and choose when to use Balanced Stance, since unless you're watching their skill activation the entire time, you'll get seemingly random KD's. But for the rank we're aiming at, it has worked like a charm.

[ZiegDivine]

I believe that it's possible to be in the top 50 or 100 without sacrificing the fun. sP is a good example of that (I'm referring to the last season, seeing as how we haven't gvged much yet this season).

[defrule]

I don't like this metagame stuff but I know I like the first match of iB v EW. They should introduce that in later chapters, it was so unique and fun to watch.

[neoflame]

I don't like this metagame stuff but I know I like the first match of iB v EW. They should introduce that in later chapters, it was so unique and fun to watch.
What, you mean 6v6 with such builds as a Paladin, a W/R trapper, and a Burning Speed runner? (Game 2 was dodgeball, and Game 3 was emote dueling... and Rodgort's Invocation dodgeball.)

[defrule]

What, you mean 6v6 with such builds as a Paladin, a W/R trapper, and a Burning Speed runner? (Game 2 was dodgeball, and Game 3 was emote dueling... and Rodgort's Invocation dodgeball.)

Yes I mean that, not the dodgeball and emote dueling though. Game 1 was just amusing, basically here is a bunch of random skills chosen for you and go seen what you can do with them.

[Apok Omni]

Here is an old quote I just remembered: If something works for you, use it.

Now, I sometimes question the metagame. Heck, I once saw a Mesmer runner with Illusion of Haste. It was new and effective, as they had defence, offence, speed, and NPC killing abilities. If someone put that idea on the forums, then veteran GvGer's will think of current events and laugh at it, but it worked great for the team.

OP, if you tested all this in GvG and it worked out, then good job. I saw a few boonprots in GvGs using Boon Signet as E-Management. But, a monk on paper is not a Monk in the battlefield. Not everything works as people say, as battle styles are random. When I boon/prot, I never went below 20 energy as I remembered Monk-basics: overhealing is hazardous.

Now, the other posters kept on mentioning about stopping every six seconds to cast it. Well, not all the time. Most of the time, it depends on the battle rate. You never know if you are going to face a spike, pressure, or whatever, so you can't keep writing up calculations based on what-ifs, or even experience.

There are many ways for a BoonProt to keep the energy flowing. Mantra of Recall for a nice refuel after 20 seconds or the enchant is gone, Energy Drain for both offensive and e-management. Both work, so Boon Signet, not costing any energy and a nice recharge, should not be a problem. Once they make a Melandru's Resilience e-management, the metagame will change alot.

So, just because something looks bad on paper does not mean it will be bad in-game. OP, if your plan works, then Godspeed. If not, then better luck next time.

[shamed]

Now, I sometimes question the metagame. Heck, I once saw a Mesmer runner with Illusion of Haste. It was new and effective, as they had defence, offence, speed, and NPC killing abilities. If someone put that idea on the forums, then veteran GvGer's will think of current events and laugh at it, but it worked great for the team.

Illusion of Speed running is not new. Most guilds don't run it mainly because the Cripple at the end of IoS can sometimes come at a really bad time or if your enchantment is drained.

Now, the other posters kept on mentioning about stopping every six seconds to cast it. Well, not all the time. Most of the time, it depends on the battle rate. You never know if you are going to face a spike, pressure, or whatever, so you can't keep writing up calculations based on what-ifs, or even experience.

Yes, it depends on the battle rate, so a monk wouldn't necessarily have to spam Boon Signet every 6 seconds all the time. However, in the heat of battle when the monk needs energy the most, it is then that you have to start spamming Boon Signet every 6 seconds for the energy and you just cannot afford to do that at that time.

Mantra of Recall/Energy Drain has the advantage of longer recharges and less predictable usage. Any good interrupt mesmer would punish you for using Boon Signet at such regular intervals. Just one Complicate would ruin your entire energy management.

But, as you mentioned, if it works for the OP then good for him. After all, having fun is really all that is important in a game.

[schwetty]

Im not going to talk about the monks ability to run flags, help monks regen, split etc etc etc. Although all our valid points the point that seems to come to me is the ganker. I only briefly viewed the post (1-2 pages) so I'm sorry if this is a repost of something someone said.

Lets say: this build can run the flag fine, caps on time, even holds up under pressure (which you will see lots of). But rmbr that many times you will have splits and ganks that occur in games where rangers, warriors and assasins or what not may be sent to the opposing base to pressure you. So now you have, lets just say, an assasin in the base. What's the big deal? Your a monk right? Per say yes no big deal because the assasin cannot hurt you etc etc. However if the assasin pushes into the body guards and proceeds to harrass the NPC's then what will you do? Heal the NPC's? Well if that's your choice then rmbr you may be their healing for a while and running a lot less which may cause you to slack on the flag stand eventually which might lead to a moral boost the exact counter of good flag running. Or will you call a warrior back into the base to help you or an ele or another character to get the assassin or any other ganker to leave? Just remember with that action you have made the flag stand battle into a 6 v 7 advantage for the other team putting you on the defensive over one character.

Crip Shots worthless? I highly doubt this, they can run flags very well and have the ability to take out single NPC's during splits etc. Even more the Crip shot is able to cripple + poison an assasin furthermore delaying his attack on the NPC's and Body Guards. If he is poisoned and crippled he will have to wait for it to wear off before he can make any move. An ele flag runner may blind him and orb him, or even deep freeze him to slow him down. Allowing you to cap and come back once again and immobilize it. If you feel that your team has a sizable advantage in the capping race you may even dare to challenge the ganker. This is just something that stuck out to me.

How do you plan to compensate for these situations?

PS: Sorry for the shorthand, I am short on time (at work ^^).

[Jummeh]

I have seen some really funky running builds including monks actually.
One team used Shield of Judgement on their runner to get a vital cap as we were pushing for a morale. It caught us off guard once, but only once.

However with a cripshotter, they have the ability to really cause trouble to enemy runner. I have started to fit Barbed Trap to my cripshotters, we have used it to cover the monks really well as well as just provide distraction to enemy team to cover an escape when something goes tits up in an attack etc.

Traps on archways etc at the exits of bases is just funny seeing the runner get crippled for 20seconds.

[Wuzzman]

Hey op can my new guild gvg you we quite frankly need the free rank. We only have 5 members I hope we are a challenge for you ^_^.

[Xpiher]

Although it seems to me that your flag runner is "broken" this doesn;t mean that it can't work. Most top 200 guilds aren't that good. Yes I know some are "uber leet," but if you get beat by a standard thumper build quickly you don't play that well as a team. The reason I say it is broken is because you need a falg runner to do dmg to the enemy falg runner or, inhibit its ability to run the falg effectively. The best way to do this is via snare which is where the current meta game's use of crip and ice/lighting runners come into play.

I do; however, like the idea of succor on the runner. The problem I can see your use of it is that it will give your runner only 2 pips of regen, 3 if P&H is used. This becomes a problem since most running skills are slightly en intensive. This is were you analysis is a little wrong on current flag runners, mainly because a flag runner, if multi tasking, isn't at full en 24/7. Rather than cast this on both your monks, you can instead cast it on 1 monk and 1 mid line caster allowing you the extra healing you want, while providing slightly more dmg at the same time. You'd have to change the eliete on the 2nd boon prot, but that can be easily fixed.

I also like your en/def on you boon prots, but again the current change in the meat game is going away from using 2 boon prots and instead using a prot spirit rit, gift of health boon/blessed, and healing. Since blanced stance helps prevent knd, it becomes a great asset to your monks, but I think for you may want to switch it up a tad. Have you thought of taking Watch Yourself? This tactic skill is a realitvely low adren skill and can be powered by wanding targets. If you put this kind of monk in the mid-line, you'll be giving your casters an extra 20AL as well as allowing your front line to push better. With the right skill set, you can even have a frot line healer begging people to hit him, but not being able to. Just a thought

[Selene Raseth]

One thing with runners is no matter how good they can run it, unless they can kill/hinder the enemy runner, they will never earn you morale. Period. They might be able to prevent the other team from getting a morale boost, but you don't even need running skills to make it to the flagstand and back before 2 minutes is up. And with 2 succors going, and the monks using them for any of the math to matter, the runner would keep losing energy until the succor spells fail from distance. Which would make for a runner without running skills to use. How would P&H be kept on the monks with succor, when every spell they cast would ensure you have no energy to keep it going?

Also, why would the ether prodigy heal party monk be stopping so often to cast the heals? If they are casting it, there's either a down-time where they can be healing or spike assisting; or it's because of damage being spread and the heal party would be more efficient than spending all that energy healing each person on an individual basis. Otherwise they could just focus on running with the occasional l orb tossed in. Though it is fun taking off from the group and following their runner in to toss a soul leech/backfire combo on them to get a morale boost :)

[David Holtzman]

One thing with runners is no matter how good they can run it, unless they can kill/hinder the enemy runner, they will never earn you morale. Period.

Total and complete nonsense. How do you think teams with Air flaggers ever earn morale, magic? The team has snares to apply to the enemy flagger while the flagger runs. In almost no circumstance where your team is even on flags should your flagger be combating their flagger, if your goal is to gain a boost. You want your team to snare their flagger while your flagger keeps running, allowing you an instant overcap that can be pushed to a boost.

[Productivity]

In almost no circumstance where your team is even on flags should your flagger be combating their flagger, if your goal is to gain a boost. You want your team to snare their flagger while your flagger keeps running, allowing you an instant overcap that can be pushed to a boost.

That's not exactly true - when your flagger is a combative type flagger designed for duels (Crisphot or Mesmer runner), it often makes sense to get a warrior to run the flag a few times while you send your own flagger to interfere with theirs.

[David Holtzman]

That's not exactly true - when your flagger is a combative type flagger designed for duels (Crisphot or Mesmer runner), it often makes sense to get a warrior to run the flag a few times while you send your own flagger to interfere with theirs.

In that situation the warrior would be your flagger (obviously, since he's running flags) and what I said still holds true.

[Productivity]

In that situation the warrior would be your flagger (obviously, since he's running flags) and what I said still holds true.

Semantics then - to you flagger is whoever is running the flags, to me flagger is the character who is expected to flag most of the time.

Having a variable definition of flagger to me tends to confuse things in a chaotic situation but whatever works guild to guild.

[JodoKast]

Semantics then - to you flagger is whoever is running the flags, to me flagger is the character who is expected to flag most of the time.

Having a variable definition of flagger to me tends to confuse things in a chaotic situation but whatever works guild to guild.

I think that the point that David wants to make is that a flagger role is to run flag and nothing else. A role is something that can be passed to people as the situation needs it, it is not set in stone. The role of hindering the other team's flagger is another role, that can be assigned to the same person, or not. These are two different things altogether.

[David Holtzman]

Semantics then - to you flagger is whoever is running the flags, to me flagger is the character who is expected to flag most of the time.

I wrote a guide on flagging that's in the GvG section of the forums. It contains the semantics for this sort of situation. :)

Other than that, JodoKast is correct.

[Selene Raseth]

Total and complete nonsense. How do you think teams with Air flaggers ever earn morale, magic? The team has snares to apply to the enemy flagger while the flagger runs. In almost no circumstance where your team is even on flags should your flagger be combating their flagger, if your goal is to gain a boost. You want your team to snare their flagger while your flagger keeps running, allowing you an instant overcap that can be pushed to a boost.
You kinda proved my point. The flag runner did not earn the morale, the rest of the team did. How? Snares, as was said. This changes nothing of what I posted, a flag runner does not earn morale unless they can hinder/kill the enemy runner. This does not mean ONLY the runner is allowed to do that. It is usually a good idea to have at least a snare on the runner to do something should they be out there while everyone else is in one fort or another. Earning a morale boost would force them to come back out to stop it from happening, or allow the team to stay on the offense if it is their runner able to earn it for them.

So, again, a runner without snares or the ability to kill an enemy runner will only accomplish taking away the enemy team's ability to earn morale. Unless they can kill/hinder, it will be up to the team to do it. And surprisingly if the team is the one doing it, they are the ones earning morale for the team; not the runner. It may seem like semantics, but should be kept in mind when designing runner builds. If it can't add to spike, can't help the team out when it needs it, then all it does is remove enemy morale. And taking an entire slot just for that does not make sense.

[GhostOf]

You kinda proved my point. The flag runner did not earn the morale, the rest of the team did. How? Snares, as was said. This changes nothing of what I posted, a flag runner does not earn morale unless they can hinder/kill the enemy runner. This does not mean ONLY the runner is allowed to do that. It is usually a good idea to have at least a snare on the runner to do something should they be out there while everyone else is in one fort or another. Earning a morale boost would force them to come back out to stop it from happening, or allow the team to stay on the offense if it is their runner able to earn it for them.

So, again, a runner without snares or the ability to kill an enemy runner will only accomplish taking away the enemy team's ability to earn morale. Unless they can kill/hinder, it will be up to the team to do it. And surprisingly if the team is the one doing it, they are the ones earning morale for the team; not the runner. It may seem like semantics, but should be kept in mind when designing runner builds. If it can't add to spike, can't help the team out when it needs it, then all it does is remove enemy morale. And taking an entire slot just for that does not make sense.

You need to GvG more.

The times when you get a boost are generally the following:

1) Your team scores a kill on the opposing flagger as they come into the stand, and returns the flag giving you time to boost.

2) You are ahead on flags, through double running or your team keeping their flag runner snared as much as possible while they are at the stand. Your team body blocks their flagger away from the stand so they can't cap fast enough to prevent you boosting.

3) You are ahead on flags, your team is able to make a big push and pressure the opposing team away from the flag stand, so they can't push a flag through in time.

4) You are ahead on flags. Someone on your team ninjas the catapult, and manages to get a lucky hit on their runner without the other team noticing.


And so on... As you can see, none of these rely on you doing anything but runnings flags quickly. Stopping to snare their flag runner at the stand doesn't do much but slow you down, especially if they are quick on removal. It is far more efficient to leave that to your team, even down to just chain running flags half way for a Warrior to pick up and run the rest of the way in, untill you are ahead enough to try and force a morale.

The only possible exception to this would probably be Frozen Isle, where you occasionally have the situation where flaggers may meet 1 vs 1. That is very rare in my experience.

[Selene Raseth]

And it does not point out why they should only be able to run. They do not need to constantly stop and spike assist or heal party when running even if they do have the skills equipped. For a runner all that is needed for that one role is a good running skill or two. After that there are many other slots that can be filled, and taking 6 extra running skills is bad any way ya look at it.

Double running works, but that does not take away from what I have said, no matter how distorted it gets. What is wrong with double running when you have a runner who can assist in killing/hindering the runner. As you said in your post, that is number 2 on your list of how to get morale. Doesn't hurt the runner to have a snare or two, or a spike or two. They are standing around with a flag. There is no running to be done until it needs to be recaptured and run again. If this somehow disproves what I said, I don't see how. Having skills equipped does not mean they have to use it, unless you have a sword and mending. Then I think there's some kind of compulsive button hitting behavior possibly.

3 and 4 follow the same thing, either it's been double run or they are running back to get the flag that was capped. Either way, having snares and such on the runner does not get in the way of running. So the point of that seems to miss what I've said about runners. It might give extra information, but is in no way contradictory to what has been written.

And 1 is actually helping what I said even more. Killing the enemy runner on the way to the stand? Having an extra spike helps out, or a snare to prevent them backing out towards a monk for healing.

To re-iterate, what was previously said, and for any button mashers out there, having a skill does not mean you have to use it all the time. Surprisingly GW is more about using the skills equipped at the right time, instead of mindless spam. Having the options tossed on so the runner isn't a dead slot during a double run is always a good idea to have. Can't run what's already been run.

[Aiiane]

This was already touched on in a thread specifically about runners - general agreement was that oftentimes the best option is to have 2-3 characters with the ability to run but other capabilities as well. Of course, it also doesn't hurt to maximize the capabilities a runner can have while away from the flagstand, if you assume that the majority of the time, a certain character might be running. For instance, elementalist "runners" generally have a bar with many utility skills that have compass-range.