Time to fit Resilient Weapon in GvG builds?

[Patccmoi]

Watching where the metagame is going, with heavy ranger use, mass condition and raw attack damage (KGYU's 2 W/N-2 R/Me-1 R/W for example that is now copied quite a bit and extremely devastating, and the Tranq/NR build that is raising in popularity too), isn't that one of the perfect counter to it?

It's not too hard to fit on any /Rt, because while it's really good to have it at 14 Resto, it's still very useful at 10-12. A Me/Rt or E/Rt would have no problem using it around, and for Me/Rt it would be quite hard to interrupt too.

I fell in love with that skill lately and it eases the pressure SO MUCH against condition/hex pressure. At 14 Resto (which i have usually, i tend to use it on Rt/X builds even if all i use from resto is Resilient-Wielder's Boon), bleeding and poison combined only make you at -1 degen, if you have only one of them you're healed. And the +24AL helps a LOT vs raw damage from thumpers, ranger interrupters and warriors (33% damage reduction, it doesn't include the +damage skill, but it leaves your monks to deal with the spikes and burst damage while they have to spend much less energy and time controlling the pressure damage). I honestly think you'd get more pressure relief using someone spamming Resilient Weapon around than from a Rt spirit spammer against any condition heavy build.

Helps a lot against Disease too, since instead of getting rid of it you can simply Resilient your allies so they get +2 regen and +24AL from Disease.

The cost/recharge/duration/cast time of Resilient Weapon are all excellent and allow for massive use of it, and since it's a weapon spell it has no counter out of direct interrupt, and with 1 sec cast it's not that bad (and again, a Me/Rt could lower that quite a bit too).

Also allows you to use Wielder's Boon, which on weapon spells people is a nice 120 healing for 5/1/4, which is not crazy but still at least as good as an Orison with DF behind. It doesn't make for a primary healer, but it can be extremely efficient support. Rest of the build can be pretty much anything out of these 2 skills too (if you use something like Rt Lord and Recuperation, you can have anyone suffering from a condition at +9 regen and +24AL, and you could use Life to replace Heal Party spam, since it has same range (full radar) and can heal anywhere from 5-150 depending on how long it was there, but say you use it every 10-15 sec, it will heal for 50-75. Combined with Recuperation and Resilient, you have very very good pressure relief).

Seems like it wouldn't be that hard to fit on an E/Rt that could still do blinding flash, etc. while relieving the pressure from conditions and direct damage by giving allies huge armor. Many other builds can be made that use it without being nothing but a Resilient Weapon spammer and keep some role in offense/support/shutdown (depending what you need).

I'm kinda surprised not to see it included in GvG builds, it isn't an elite, very few builds use Weapon Spells that would enter in conflict with it, and it would allow Rt to have some other role than spirit spammer too. A Rt with his +15AL while in weapon spell armor and any condition/hex on tanks as much as a warrior, so they're not that much of a softie either and can make for very solid midline characters.

[arredondo]

It's one of the best general use, non-elite skills in the game. I put it in the category of Distortion, Twisting Fangs, and Eviscerate as skills you have to find a good reason NOT to bring if you are using the class. I have RW on 98% of the Rit builds I've ever made.

[Ashin]

On a more general note, I think you will start to see team builds that incorporate weapon spells more meaningfully. I have a great resto Rt build that is meant to compliment a primary healer and contribute a bit of extra damage just by focusing on weapon spells. They cannot be stripped and several of them are quite nice.

[bob the unbuilder]

Rits generally sit far back spamming spirits constantly, so you can't use resilient weapon in response to spikes. You generally want to remove all conditions and hexes from a target, and you can't really spam this on everyone versus hex-heavy teams since that will drain your rit's energy like mad, and even if you do you're basically using it as a weak healing breeze. So where does resilient weapon really become worth a slot on a ritualist whose bar is already pretty much 100% booked?

[Patccmoi]

Rits generally sit far back spamming spirits constantly, so you can't use resilient weapon in response to spikes. You generally want to remove all conditions and hexes from a target, and you can't really spam this on everyone versus hex-heavy teams since that will drain your rit's energy like mad, and even if you do you're basically using it as a weak healing breeze. So where does resilient weapon really become worth a slot on a ritualist whose bar is already pretty much 100% booked?

That is because your view of a Rt = spirit spammer. You might think currently that 90% of skills that Rt have are useless out of Communing spirits because the rest didn't make it into the metagame yet, but it's not the case. Rts can be much more than that, and as i said it can as easily be fit on a /Rt too.

And why would you want to remove all hexes/conditions if you use it? We use Resilient a lot and we have someone with Draw Condition and hex removal, but we only call for things like Blind, Cripple, and hexes like Spiteful, etc. But Resilient handles all bleeding/poison/conjure phantasm/etc. You remove some if the guy is still in degen after the +6 from Resilient, but it actually saves your monks/support energy and skill recharge to not have to remove every single thing. You won't have to let a guy in Spiteful because your hex removal went to Conjure Phantasm. Look at the current metagame of mass poison/bleeding, i'm sorry but monks, even with E/Mo support and Extinguish somewhere, can't remove it all. It's preparations, they're applied every hit and it cost them nothing (low E every 24 sec is nothing) while your team has to spend tons of energy to remove over and over, while Resilient allows you to just leave them there and they're HELPING you.

I'd never suggest using Resilient Weapon on a spirit spammer. And Resilient is not a response to spike, appart from the fact it can make some weaker if the guy is in Resilient (Adrenal Spikes on someone in Resilient for example lose some efficiency since the DW triggers the +24AL on the guy and it lowers the rest of the spike significantly, sometimes enough to save the guy). Resilient Weapon is a pressure control, and one of the best there is imo.

[arredondo]

I've never even played a spirit spammer build yet as a Rit. Not because they aren't good (obviously they work well), but it's not the only way to use the class.

bob the unbuilder, here's an example that you may want to try. It's a healer build (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=409057) of mine using Resilient Weapon (among other skills) that also does a very good job at staying alive. You don't have to bring spirits to be effective.

[Xpiher]

The rit is a good all purpose class much like the current meta game's me/mo. I tried incorperating this kind of rit into a team build I was making and couldn't get it to fit in (needed drain and shatter combo still). If you are looking for a way to thwart the current meta game's heavy condition spamming build then look back into the past. Restore condition combined with draw condition is perfect for this. With protection prayers at lvl 6 you get a 50 point heal for each condition suffered. Stick this on a me/mo or rt/mo and you have yourself a pretty good heal when conditions are stacked on 1 guy.

Back to rit. I think the rit will become more useable as a weapon rit in the near future. Spelling like weapon of quickening can be used on on mesmers to give them faster interrupts or e-drain, nightmare weapon can be incoperated into any team with a lot of melee dmg and the above mentioned skill is great with a marytr. However, with the new classes comming out in a few months, the meta game will be drastically changed and perhaps for the better.

[Ashin]

Well I truly believe the average player doesn't think a ritualist can be anything other than a ritual lord.

[Patccmoi]

The rit is a good all purpose class much like the current meta game's me/mo. I tried incorperating this kind of rit into a team build I was making and couldn't get it to fit in (needed drain and shatter combo still). If you are looking for a way to thwart the current meta game's heavy condition spamming build then look back into the past. Restore condition combined with draw condition is perfect for this. With protection prayers at lvl 6 you get a 50 point heal for each condition suffered. Stick this on a me/mo or rt/mo and you have yourself a pretty good heal when conditions are stacked on 1 guy.

Back to rit. I think the rit will become more useable as a weapon rit in the near future. Spelling like weapon of quickening can be used on on mesmers to give them faster interrupts or e-drain, nightmare weapon can be incoperated into any team with a lot of melee dmg and the above mentioned skill is great with a marytr. However, with the new classes comming out in a few months, the meta game will be drastically changed and perhaps for the better.

Personally i don't like 'weapon rit' (a rit with multiple weapon spells, if that's what you mean) mostly because of how you can only have 1 on each char. Sometimes you can fit 2, but it's hard to use more. One of the main reason why Vengeful Weapon isn't used much, because while it's actually pretty great, you can't really use it along with other, more reliable defense-wise weapon spells.

A very nice weapon spell use too is Weapon of Shadow. This can be really great on a MoR-Mesmer in HA (say a Mesmer doing Diversion spam, etc.) because on altar games he can keep Weapon of Shadow on your hero for most of the time, making all attackers blind when they hit him, and there isn't any way to remove it. Can make it seriously hard to take down your hero.

I think people need to be more creative when using Rt in GvG. There is lots of great things you can do with them, and you can exploit their /X class quite a bit.

[Aiiane]

One use that I saw get some play at one point or another was a Me/Rt - since weapon spells are just that, spells, they benefit from fast casting. In addition, Weapon of Shadow is indeed nice for heavy single-target defense that's required in HA.

[Goldfish God]

One use that I saw get some play at one point or another was a Me/Rt - since weapon spells are just that, spells, they benefit from fast casting.
The flip-side is that because Weapon Spells are not spirits, there isn't any innate benefit from a primary Rt's Spawning Power.

Brutal and Whailing Weapon are both quite potent offense depending on the build. Whailing can provide a partial shut down on attack classes (I kinda view it as a non-elite relative of Incindery Arrows). Brutal can be slung on someone not currently under attack (e.g. a warrior or ranger since they have few enchantments in their builds usually). When the attacks do start hitting them, the monks start up their enchantments etc, but Brutal can still be used to meet the Wielder's Boon requirement.

[bob the unbuilder]

I've never even played a spirit spammer build yet as a Rit. Not because they aren't good (obviously they work well), but it's not the only way to use the class.

bob the unbuilder, here's an example that you may want to try. It's a healer build (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=409057) of mine using Resilient Weapon (among other skills) that also does a very good job at staying alive. You don't have to bring spirits to be effective.

OK that's a nice build if I had an extra 9th player slot to fill, but I don't. Will it ever replace a monk in gvg? No, because it has no hex removal, no condition removal, cannot respond fast to large amounts of damage. You're being a pure third defensive character, which can be done better with rit laying down spirits where they can't be touched (your guy has only like 3 skills that help non-dead allies...).


That is because your view of a Rt = spirit spammer. You might think currently that 90% of skills that Rt have are useless out of Communing spirits because the rest didn't make it into the metagame yet, but it's not the case. Rts can be much more than that, and as i said it can as easily be fit on a /Rt too.

And why would you want to remove all hexes/conditions if you use it? We use Resilient a lot and we have someone with Draw Condition and hex removal, but we only call for things like Blind, Cripple, and hexes like Spiteful, etc. But Resilient handles all bleeding/poison/conjure phantasm/etc. You remove some if the guy is still in degen after the +6 from Resilient, but it actually saves your monks/support energy and skill recharge to not have to remove every single thing. You won't have to let a guy in Spiteful because your hex removal went to Conjure Phantasm. Look at the current metagame of mass poison/bleeding, i'm sorry but monks, even with E/Mo support and Extinguish somewhere, can't remove it all. It's preparations, they're applied every hit and it cost them nothing (low E every 24 sec is nothing) while your team has to spend tons of energy to remove over and over, while Resilient allows you to just leave them there and they're HELPING you.

I'd never suggest using Resilient Weapon on a spirit spammer. And Resilient is not a response to spike, appart from the fact it can make some weaker if the guy is in Resilient (Adrenal Spikes on someone in Resilient for example lose some efficiency since the DW triggers the +24AL on the guy and it lowers the rest of the spike significantly, sometimes enough to save the guy). Resilient Weapon is a pressure control, and one of the best there is imo.

Rits fit in as the "third monk", and in that respect spirits are the best support for monks. Either way, I'd rather take a skill that removes hexes/conditions, then works when they're on. It's counter-productive, instead of cleaning your ally from the negative stuff and getting him back up, you're trying to compensate for it with health regen and armor. Not the best philosophy...

[arredondo]

^^^ I forgot I was in the Guild forum and was talking more in general. While RW is actually very powerful vs. Conditions/Hexes for the energy expended (10E for 20+ seconds of protection), you are right about the current meta-game. Monks are far too powerful in more ways than one to simply leave off of a team for any other support class in most cases.

[Patccmoi]

OK that's a nice build if I had an extra 9th player slot to fill, but I don't. Will it ever replace a monk in gvg? No, because it has no hex removal, no condition removal, cannot respond fast to large amounts of damage. You're being a pure third defensive character, which can be done better with rit laying down spirits where they can't be touched (your guy has only like 3 skills that help non-dead allies...).



Rits fit in as the "third monk", and in that respect spirits are the best support for monks. Either way, I'd rather take a skill that removes hexes/conditions, then works when they're on. It's counter-productive, instead of cleaning your ally from the negative stuff and getting him back up, you're trying to compensate for it with health regen and armor. Not the best philosophy...

Meh, there is more to Rt than just leaving them in the backline spamming spirits, or being a pure Resto healer... Lately we've been doing a front-line Rt/W healer, using sword attacks (sever-gash), Wild Blow to take out stances (extremely useful vs trappers, MoR Mesmers, etc.), Distracting Blow to interrupt, Consume Soul against enemy spirits (EXTREMELY useful vs NR/Tranq teams, and any other team running a spirit spammer), and Resilient-Wielder's Boon for heavy protection. Allows our team to overextend a bit more, since a front-line healer can reach far. Ofc he can't defend from a spike and you still need to be careful, but it does help quite a bit. With the rest of his build taking very low energy and 4 pips of regen, Resilient can be spammed all over the place as needed. He plays a big role against any team using spirits supporting the offense by eating them, he can do bleeding-dw pressure (we have a heavy pressure build really), interrupt to annoy, etc. And don't tell me he's a softie in front, with his shield and resilient weapon on, he has 91AL when there is no condition and 115AL +6 regen if he has a hex/condition on, with a 120 heal 5/1/4 spell. He's a better tank than nearly any warrior out there now that Absorption became close to useless in PvP (still useful against Thumpers Pets), and can heal others around actually very efficiently for support healing.

Yes, you could say that removing all hexes and conditions is better, and monks spells are very very energy efficient at it. But look at the current metagame again with the dual ranger with bleeding/poison preparation. Teams degen all the time, and the pressure kills. Monks have to use their energy heavily to heal the degen, and support character use a lot to try to lower the pressure with mass draw, extinguish, etc. Your team is spending TONS of energy that their team isn't, so they can use all their energy on interrupts, etc. while the mass condition is spread everywhere, and direct damage is hitting hard. I'm sure you know KGYU's build of 2 W/N, 1 Thumper, 2 R/Me. There is conditions everywhere, and heavy direct damage on top. Throw Resilient on your team, and suddenly all the energy devoted to keeping that guy from bleeding/poison or healing him is gone for 20 sec. That 10E from your Rt saved TONS to other people on your team. And as a bonus, the 24AL reduces all pressure damage from the melee by 33%, which is a lot overtime. Monks can't actually give bonus AL with anything but elite spells, and this 24AL makes a huge difference for reducing pressure.

Classic backline simply can't stand that current pressure, i saw KGYU and Fishmonger walk over tons of top guilds in less than 5-10 min, because the heavy degen pressure + direct damage all over the place is more than their backline can take. And i honestly believe Resilient Weapon could've changed those games.

[Hendrixbrother]

As a KGYU guild member I feel I can speak better than most to the strengths and weaknesses of the build. There is one simple fact. Defense does not beat this build. It just doesn't. It will prolong the match, but it will not win it. The simple reason for this is that with every extra defensive skill, you're sacrificing offense. You're basically trading your ability to kill your opponent for the ability to live longer.

That's where the rangers come in. Eventually someone is going to make a mistake, and the interrupts are going to hit home. Some defense will be disabled, leading to a momentum shift. I can't count the number of times I've hard "dshotted heal party" over vent leading to 3-4 deaths as we push the opposing guild back. The great thing about the build is that it mixes excellent pressure with tons of utility.

Resilient weapon may have helped some guilds live longer. Unfortunately it doesn't necessarily help them win. Our only legit losses this season with our main build (no err7s, no henches, no monks going afk midmatch to get soup:wink: ) have been to EW/iQ thumperway. Adding more defense isn't usually the answer unless if you have a way to kill. A lot of times that does not happen.

[David Holtzman]

Resilient weapon may have helped some guilds live longer. Unfortunately it doesn't necessarily help them win. Our only legit losses this season with our main build (no err7s, no henches, no monks going afk midmatch to get soup:wink: ) have been to EW/iQ thumperway. Adding more defense isn't usually the answer unless if you have a way to kill. A lot of times that does not happen.

Don't forget WIMPs =p

Anyways, it remains the case that a seriously defensive VoD build is extremely effective, including against your pressure build. See PnH for an excellent example this season. It's true that KGYU players can beat a reasonably defensive build, but that's more to do with the quality of the players than of the build. The members know how to supply the pressure very effectively. Nevertheless, VoD builds are currently the most successful on the ladder simply because staying alive is not unreasonably difficult given the correct use of a powerful defensive build.

[Patccmoi]

As a KGYU guild member I feel I can speak better than most to the strengths and weaknesses of the build. There is one simple fact. Defense does not beat this build. It just doesn't. It will prolong the match, but it will not win it. The simple reason for this is that with every extra defensive skill, you're sacrificing offense. You're basically trading your ability to kill your opponent for the ability to live longer.

That's where the rangers come in. Eventually someone is going to make a mistake, and the interrupts are going to hit home. Some defense will be disabled, leading to a momentum shift. I can't count the number of times I've hard "dshotted heal party" over vent leading to 3-4 deaths as we push the opposing guild back. The great thing about the build is that it mixes excellent pressure with tons of utility.

Resilient weapon may have helped some guilds live longer. Unfortunately it doesn't necessarily help them win. Our only legit losses this season with our main build (no err7s, no henches, no monks going afk midmatch to get soup:wink: ) have been to EW/iQ thumperway. Adding more defense isn't usually the answer unless if you have a way to kill. A lot of times that does not happen.

Interesting to hear from one of you. I agree with the point that you can't focus on your defense too much.

But i also feel playing with Resilient that it allows us to actually be more offensive. Melee aren't pressured, the backline isn't struggling for every scrap of energy they can manage because they have to spam healing like crazy all over the place, your midline char that has Draw Condition (few guilds are without one) doesn't have to devote nearly his full energy to it and can assist on the offensive more, etc. A team that isn't pressured can focus their offense and time their things much more efficiently than a team where everyone is struggling to stay above 50% health. Ofc Resilient doesn't take off the full pressure of your 2 rangers 1 thumper 2 W/N at all. But it SERIOUSLY lowers it, as bleeding and poison are actually healing you and reducing all damage that consider armor (and your build is full of it, even though you have the +damage in spikes, the huge base DPS that your attackers provide combined with conditions is most of the pressure) by 33%, which is a huge chunk.

When your Mesmers have a warrior on their back while being at -7 degen, they can't devote ANYTHING to the offensive. They are kiting, trying to stay alive, spending all their energy to Distortion. I saw your build ran a lot of time lately (it's basically all over the place, with small variations) and when good team run it (you, Fishmonger...) you check at their party bar and no one on the team even gets hurt for most of the games, even vs top 20 teams sometimes. The other team is CONSTANTLY pushed back, unable to stand and fight, forced to retreat because monks don't have the energy to heal everyone. It's nice to have offense, but if your offense has to run, how good is it? How much can you pressure if you can't stand the pressure applied on you at all?

I don't think a 3rd monk, or even a Rt spirit spammer can settle this problem. I saw teams with them, and the Rt spirits just vanish. Displacement with 5 attackers last 1-2 sec, Union with all the attacks flying around is gone in 5, etc. The pressure is hardly slowed, and 2 ranger interrupts can make a Rt Lord's life hell if they can ever get in range and LoS of him. A 3rd monk will encounter the same problem as the 2 monks already have. Your team will stand to fight 10-15 sec longer, but that's about how much his energy will provide, after which he'll be dry like the other monks. It might be enough time to turn the pressure around, but with 3 full monks you won't be pressuring an aweful lot yourself.

Resilient can be fit easily on other things than a Rt primary. With 10/1/4 and 17 duration, impossible to remove once applied, it can easily be kept on 3-4 people at 11 Resto for +5 regen, and you just draw from the others left (usually 3-4 people is all that's truly degen pressured anyway, others being too far behind, etc.). A Me/Rt would be very hard to interrupt too unless you get lucky and can work on something like edenial, degen, etc. Or a Rt primary going 14-16 Resto can still easily put 12 in another attribute line from anywhere, which could be offense, defense, etc. since Spawning Power gives absolutely nothing to Resilient-Wielder's Boon.

It's just one skill to fit on a support char, which can be used to replace skills already there for support. I don't think you're hurting your offense by allowing your team to stay there and fight instead of running all the time because your monks can't stand the pressure at all.