Channeling spike

[ZiegDivine]

I just hit a team that had 5 rts and 3 monks. They put up a bunch of spirits and then spiked with channeling magic. It looked like a good holding build, especially with all the iway running around. I was in a dual smite guild group (I know, bad idea with the current meta-game of nr/tranq, but that's not the point) and we lost really badly. How is a balanced build supposed to counter this? A bspike shouldn't have too much trouble, however, warriors just get wasted by all the spirits, and after a while it's hard to outheal the damage. Any suggestions? Comments on how that build could be improved? (I'll admit I'm intruiged with it, and would like to give it a try)

[Phoenixtech]

on altar maps, you would need a shelter rit to keep the damage low. On non-altar maps (they have NO MOBILITY), use that against them. I would think the current 2x CG ranger setup would already give them hell no?

[Mr Dbest]

first of all, i'm pretty sure it's not channeling spike...but instead it's a doom spike, a skill from the spawning line....my guidlies and friends were in the grp, tho not sure if it's the same one u ran into... was the leader R Two D Two? Anyways, if this build continues to be played, i'm sure A-Net will nerf it somehow, since it's potential is unbelievable, as almost nothing...spikes, pressure, hex (bcuz of 3 monks), will be able to take this build out because of unbelievable protection =]

[tarutaru]

first of all, i'm pretty sure it's not channeling spike...but instead it's a doom spike, a skill from the spawning line....my guidlies and friends were in the grp, tho not sure if it's the same one u ran into... was the leader R Two D Two? Anyways, if this build continues to be played, i'm sure A-Net will nerf it somehow, since it's potential is unbelievable, as almost nothing...spikes, pressure, hex (bcuz of 3 monks), will be able to take this build out because of unbelievable protection =]

No nerf needed. All that will happen if too many people start using it is that every team will require one of their characters to have a Ritualist subclass and just take Signet of Creation.

Throw as much protection onto the X/Ri as possible, he/she runs into the fray of all those spirits, clicks on Signet of Creation, then runs out. Team stalls for 30 seconds, then BOOM!, and mops the floor with the exposed ritualists w/o any of their spirits. Like I said, no intervention on anet's part needed.

[Buddah]

I question if Signet of Creation really is the answer. Most spirit spammers are ready to recast their spirits in 25-30 seconds which means when their original spirits are about to be replaced or will be replaced before the Signet would cause their collapse.

Also Doom isn't dependant on the spirit. It just need to have skill recycling.

[Mr Dbest]

I question if Signet of Creation really is the answer. Most spirit spammers are ready to recast their spirits in 25-30 seconds which means when their original spirits are about to be replaced or will be replaced before the Signet would cause their collapse.

Also Doom isn't dependant on the spirit. It just need to have skill recycling.


No, not exactly in 25-30 seconds, because a doom rit build is different from rit spammer...Rit spammer uses rit lord, while doom spikes have the rit using a Binding Ritual as their Elite..So every 45-60 seconds....And, i dont really believe that sig of creation will be needed, as imo they will nerf it if it becomes 2 common place (by either reducing max dmg or increasing recharge time of doom )... =]

[Phoenixtech]

No nerf needed. All that will happen if too many people start using it is that every team will require one of their characters to have a Ritualist subclass and just take Signet of Creation.

Throw as much protection onto the X/Ri as possible, he/she runs into the fray of all those spirits, clicks on Signet of Creation, then runs out. Team stalls for 30 seconds, then BOOM!, and mops the floor with the exposed ritualists w/o any of their spirits. Like I said, no intervention on anet's part needed.

And what happens when you run into other teams? You are taking 1 skill that actually HELPS the common FOTMs such as BSpike, IWAY, etc out there by making thier spirits last longer.

Don't use it vs these other teams you say? Then you have a dead slot just to counter 1 build. EVEN WITH Signet of Creation, they are only down for 15 seconds since most of the spirits they cast have 45 sec recharge, how exactly are you moping the floor with exposed ritualists w/o spirits? They also cast LIFE which heals them when SoC runs out and camp wards. The recharging binding rituals are used for DOOM, which is their primary source of damage combined with obs flame from the warder and maybe a dual shot or something to that effect.

Personally, I've went up vs that build a few times. Shelter spam was really good vs their spikes. Most of em run an interupt ranger though so your ritualist better know how to position himself.

[tarutaru]

And what happens when you run into other teams? You are taking 1 skill that actually HELPS the common FOTMs such as BSpike, IWAY, etc out there by making thier spirits last longer.

Don't use it vs these other teams you say? Then you have a dead slot just to counter 1 build. EVEN WITH Signet of Creation, they are only down for 15 seconds since most of the spirits they cast have 45 sec recharge, how exactly are you moping the floor with exposed ritualists w/o spirits? They also cast LIFE which heals them when SoC runs out and camp wards. The recharging binding rituals are used for DOOM, which is their primary source of damage combined with obs flame from the warder and maybe a dual shot or something to that effect.

Personally, I've went up vs that build a few times. Shelter spam was really good vs their spikes. Most of em run an interupt ranger though so your ritualist better know how to position himself.

No, actually in the current metagame spirits are used by almost every team you meet. Which means that you can still keep your own spirits (Sig of Creation only works "in the area") and still get rid of the spirits on their side that benefit them. Also, please read the whole instructions that I gave for using it. You heavily protect the Rt/X or X/Rt, s/he runs in and pops Sig of Creations, then runs out. Your entire team avoids battle by kiting for 30 seconds (not too difficult at all if you know what you're doing), and then you proceed to kill them w/o their spirit help. You don't care for those 30 seconds that the Spirits get health regeneration, you're just waiting for the bomb at the end.

Furthermore, it isn't a "dead slot" to counter one build. It will work versus any build that uses spirits (alot), and if what the OP is saying is true, and this mass spirit build being really unstoppable, you can afford to take that one skill rather than another. Would you rather have a skill with you that works to counter any team using spirits, or lose to the Doom Spike nearly every time? The answer is obvious...

Finally, yes I do realize most spirits have 45-60 second cast recharge, and will be back up quickly, and that all Doom needs is for the spirits to be recharging. But guess what? Sig of Creation has a 10 second recharge, which means you can blow them up all day long. And what about the Doom spike, you ask? The team will only be able to get off one, *maybe* two spikes. Then what? They're 5 players with all their skills recharging, and nothing to do. Hence: mopping the floor with them.

Thus, no nerf needed. Please stop crying nerf every time a new build comes out that is half-decent, and start looking-up your options.

[Parker Bsb]

This is was for GvG but I'm sure minor tweaks and it'd be able to own alot of spirit builds.

Sword - anti-spirit warrior: (16 sword, 13 str)
CONSUME SOUL {Elite, Rit spawning power}
Resurrection Signet
Sever
Gash
Final Thrust
Frenzy
Sprint
Endure Pain

Simple premise - get deep in their backline and destroy blind / displacement with consume, crush other spirits with normal attacks / CS when you have the energy for it.

Granted I realize there is alot of spirits, but if you just target the ones that are causing you greif then you have a better chance.

BTW Sig of creation, they are likley using ritlord which means their spirits are recharged after sig wipes them.

[ZiegDivine]

It was channeling spike for sure, because they spiked with "Channeling Strike" and spirit burn (only on dp'ed targets as far as I could tell). This means that a sig of creation counter isn't really viable, seeing as how they'll be ready to spam spirits in 30 seconds (in fact it'll help them, by making their spirits last up to 30 seconds, rather than dying in a few seconds as it happens with some). Granted against a doom spike sig of creation is a way to go, but if the elite is ritual lord, the only counter I see is prot spirit or spirit bond on a warrior (something like Parker posted) and just rush them hoping to take down some spirits and a couple rts or monks. Granted unnatural sig would own a couple spirits, but it would take too long to take all of them down.

TBH, I don't think the build is unstoppable, but I would rather brainstorm or "look at my options" with people here, rather than on my own, seeing as how it's more fun (and this IS a game after all).

Now, what would the build look like? The 5 rts would probably have 3 communing and 2 restoration, with a 12/9/9 split. If you throw on a major rune of spawning, you'll reach the breakpoint for 7 energy with boon of creation. I'm thinking that the skill bar would look like Rit Lord, Boon of Creation, Res, Channeling Strike, Spirit Burn, and 3 spirits. As it works out, there are 8 communing spirits I would like to bring, with two people having Displacement. The spirits are: Earthbind, Shadowsong, Union, Shelter, Soothing, Dissonance, Displacement, and Disenchantment. The two resto rits would have Life and Recuperation (one with Life the other with Recup), both with Resilient Weapon, and maybe Mend Body and Soul. What do you guys think? With 2 majors on the Communing Ritualists (spawning and channeling) and a channeling major on the resto rits would this build work? The monks would be a traditional 3 monk backline, RC prot, SB/Infuse, and a WoH. With only 5 enchantments total (SB, seed, prot spirit, spirit bond, boon of creation ... this would be the only "troublesome" ench) at most, the nr/tranq shouldn't give too much trouble.

I just calculated that each channeling strike at 15 will do 135 dmg, for a total of 675. The spirit burn spike would do 80 from each, so a total of 400 (maybe use it as an after spike?). With a grand perfect total of 1075 dmg, a spike should be able to kill somebody even if they are infused. What do you guys think? Any feed back, suggestions, or ways to counter this would be appreciated.

EDIT - Any way to fit in a ranger spirit spammer? Since this would be a good holding build, fertile, fs, and all that good stuff would be very useful. Right now I'm thinking of taking out the RC prot for the ranger, seeing as how spirits would help with the protecting and two mend body's should remove condtions fairly fast.

The two problems I see right now are heavy hex degen and choking gas rangers. I'm thinking of ways to counter this, but once again any input would be great.

[tarutaru]

It was channeling spike for sure, because they spiked with "Channeling Strike" and spirit burn (only on dp'ed targets as far as I could tell). This means that a sig of creation counter isn't really viable, seeing as how they'll be ready to spam spirits in 30 seconds (in fact it'll help them, by making their spirits last up to 30 seconds, rather than dying in a few seconds as it happens with some). Granted against a doom spike sig of creation is a way to go, but if the elite is ritual lord, the only counter I see is prot spirit or spirit bond on a warrior (something like Parker posted) and just rush them hoping to take down some spirits and a couple rts or monks. Granted unnatural sig would own a couple spirits, but it would take too long to take all of them down.

TBH, I don't think the build is unstoppable, but I would rather brainstorm or "look at my options" with people here, rather than on my own, seeing as how it's more fun (and this IS a game after all).

Now, what would the build look like? The 5 rts would probably have 3 communing and 2 restoration, with a 12/9/9 split. If you throw on a major rune of spawning, you'll reach the breakpoint for 7 energy with boon of creation. I'm thinking that the skill bar would look like Rit Lord, Boon of Creation, Res, Channeling Strike, Spirit Burn, and 3 spirits. As it works out, there are 8 communing spirits I would like to bring, with two people having Displacement. The spirits are: Earthbind, Shadowsong, Union, Shelter, Soothing, Dissonance, Displacement, and Disenchantment. The two resto rits would have Life and Recuperation (one with Life the other with Recup), both with Resilient Weapon, and maybe Mend Body and Soul. What do you guys think? With 2 majors on the Communing Ritualists (spawning and channeling) and a channeling major on the resto rits would this build work? The monks would be a traditional 3 monk backline, RC prot, SB/Infuse, and a WoH. With only 5 enchantments total (SB, seed, prot spirit, spirit bond, boon of creation ... this would be the only "troublesome" ench) at most, the nr/tranq shouldn't give too much trouble.

I just calculated that each channeling strike at 15 will do 135 dmg, for a total of 675. The spirit burn spike would do 80 from each, so a total of 400 (maybe use it as an after spike?). With a grand perfect total of 1075 dmg, a spike should be able to kill somebody even if they are infused. What do you guys think? Any feed back, suggestions, or ways to counter this would be appreciated.

EDIT - Any way to fit in a ranger spirit spammer? Since this would be a good holding build, fertile, fs, and all that good stuff would be very useful. Right now I'm thinking of taking out the RC prot for the ranger, seeing as how spirits would help with the protecting and two mend body's should remove condtions fairly fast.

The two problems I see right now are heavy hex degen and choking gas rangers. I'm thinking of ways to counter this, but once again any input would be great.

You could fit a Ranger spammer right in there. Considering that there is so much overspike, you could easily drop one ritualist for a ranger to make the build ever that much better at holding. The ranger spirit spammer would also provide your own self-counter to any hex heavy degen builds, by using NR/Tranq.

Back to the Signet of Creation topic though. Yes, even with a Rit Lord group, Sig of Creation would be a perfect counter. With Rit Lord active, they can *at most* re-lay spirits every 30 seconds. You can bomb them in that same amount of time. Hence, they'll spend that much time constantly trying to get their spirits back up, meaning that they cannot spike effectively. Couple Sig of Creation with a melee ritualist like the one Parker described, and you've got an effective one-two punch in the gut to any team using spirits.

[Phoenixtech]

No, actually in the current metagame spirits are used by almost every team you meet. Which means that you can still keep your own spirits (Sig of Creation only works "in the area") and still get rid of the spirits on their side that benefit them. Also, please read the whole instructions that I gave for using it. You heavily protect the Rt/X or X/Rt, s/he runs in and pops Sig of Creations, then runs out. Your entire team avoids battle by kiting for 30 seconds (not too difficult at all if you know what you're doing), and then you proceed to kill them w/o their spirit help. You don't care for those 30 seconds that the Spirits get health regeneration, you're just waiting for the bomb at the end.

Furthermore, it isn't a "dead slot" to counter one build. It will work versus any build that uses spirits (alot), and if what the OP is saying is true, and this mass spirit build being really unstoppable, you can afford to take that one skill rather than another. Would you rather have a skill with you that works to counter any team using spirits, or lose to the Doom Spike nearly every time? The answer is obvious...

Finally, yes I do realize most spirits have 45-60 second cast recharge, and will be back up quickly, and that all Doom needs is for the spirits to be recharging. But guess what? Sig of Creation has a 10 second recharge, which means you can blow them up all day long. And what about the Doom spike, you ask? The team will only be able to get off one, *maybe* two spikes. Then what? They're 5 players with all their skills recharging, and nothing to do. Hence: mopping the floor with them.

Thus, no nerf needed. Please stop crying nerf every time a new build comes out that is half-decent, and start looking-up your options.

You need to have some more HOH experience, the current "Metagame" with this build is ran by 2-3 teams only. Many times, there's a RANGER that is in there or a shock war. Now I'm not saying this build is overpowered or anything like that, since I've beaten it a few times. It's a standard balanced spike holding build, however, Signet of Creation is simply NOT the answer. Consume SOUL as suggested would prob be a great counter.

Here's why Signet of Creation has ZERO effect. First, it takes 2 second to cast. Most teams WILL have a warder with ward vs foe and either a SHOCK or Ranger. GOOD LUCK "putting all sorts of protection on your rit" walking in there slowed by 50% and casting your 2 second signet of creation, not to mention walking back OUT 50% slower without being BODYBLOCKED and GANKED to death. Second, EVEN if you pulled it off, they can just as easily spread out their spirits so it doesn't all lie "in the area" With so many Starburst/Fire Nukers around people do that already ANYWAYS.

So in summary, no the build does NOT need a nerf. It is like any other holding build. Low on offence (relies on 3x doom + obs flame + dual shot), heavy on defence. However, Signet of Creation is NOT a counter to this PERIOD, SHELTER however, will help you mitigate damage.


Back to the Signet of Creation topic though. Yes, even with a Rit Lord group, Sig of Creation would be a perfect counter. With Rit Lord active, they can *at most* re-lay spirits every 30 seconds. You can bomb them in that same amount of time. Hence, they'll spend that much time constantly trying to get their spirits back up, meaning that they cannot spike effectively. Couple Sig of Creation with a melee ritualist like the one Parker described, and you've got an effective one-two punch in the gut to any team using spirits.

With RIT LORD spirits recharge in 10-15 seconds and people SPAM it to feed the necros energy in bspike/IWAY etc, definately NOT "at most every 30 seconds" and if you think they'll spend that time constantly trying to get their spirits back up, you're right, they do that ANYWAYS to feed the necros energy. You just helped them keep thier spirits stronger by not doing anything except running around "casting 2 second signet of creation" in the AREA of THEIR spirit. Consume soul is a totally different animal than Sig of Creation, that is actually viable and people run that in GvG.

Seriously, have you ever PLAYED Signet of creation in HOH?

[tarutaru]

*sighs*

Please don't insult my intelligence in Heroes' Ascent. As I've said before, my friends know my rank and know what emote I can show. No need for me to gloat on a forum, as I don't like people who do that in the first place. I made a vaild point, no need to start all-capping every other word to make yours.

Now, onwards to the discussion: Yes, the metagame is spirit-laden. Versus good teams that are looking to go far, that is. Yes, Consume Soul is a good counter. Also, Signet of Creation is another good counter. I suggested the best option to pair the two.

Pheonixtech, I will apply your own arguement to your own post. You said that someone using Sig of Creation will never make it in and out alive? I will turn the tables on you back to the Consume Soul user. That person has to get in the thick of things, and stay there for dozens of seconds to dispatch with all the spirits. Tell me how this poses less of a threat than someone going in there one time to cast a two second spell (of which an interrupt can be countered)? Choking gas only interrupts spells, fyi, not signets.

As for the greater part of your post, I was under the assumption we were talking about the Channeling Spike ritualist group running around HA. That is what the OP started discussing in the first place. Granted, Sig of Creation would not work as well versus Doom Spike. But for the topic at hand, it is a good counter. And again, for the topic at hand the spirits' recharge will hover around 30 seconds. The OP is talking about a 16/9/9 split of attributes. With a 9 in spawning, and with Rit Lord, the recharge on most of the spirits will be 30 seconds. Hence, Sig of Creation works. And yes I have used it to great success.

With RIT LORD spirits recharge in 10-15 seconds and people SPAM it to feed the necros energy in bspike/IWAY etc, definately NOT "at most every 30 seconds" and if you think they'll spend that time constantly trying to get their spirits back up, you're right, they do that ANYWAYS to feed the necros energy. You just helped them keep thier spirits stronger by not doing anything except running around "casting 2 second signet of creation" in the AREA of THEIR spirit. Consume soul is a totally different animal than Sig of Creation, that is actually viable and people run that in GvG.

Seriously, have you ever PLAYED Signet of creation in HOH?

I wasn't discussing iway or blood spike. If you can't beat them with the meat of your team build in the first place, that's a problem for a different thread and a different time. Oh, and GvG is not HoH. Consume soul is doing great in Guild battles, I know that.

Final point: double posting is frowned upon.

[ZiegDivine]

With 11 in spawning on the communing rits the recharge is 59% faster. With 60 sec recharge spirits, the recharge time will be cut by 35.4 seconds.. I will be able to start casting a spirit every 25 seconds. On the 45 sec recharge spirits, the recharge time will be cut by 26.55 seconds. This means that I will be able to cast a spirit every 19 seconds. Phoenix, I don't know how much your rits have in spawning, but there is no way to cast a spirit every 10-15 seconds, at least not in the build that I'm proposing and asking a critique of.

tarutaru, I think I'll take your advice and test the build with and without the fifth ritualist. Thanks.

[tarutaru]

NP, ZiegDivine. Also, don't forget that for Channeling Spike to work, your character needs to be holding an item to get maximum damage. Just an added note of caution. Good luck! I know I've had my share of fun with new-age spirit spamming :)

[Phoenixtech]

*sighs*

Please don't insult my intelligence in Heroes' Ascent. As I've said before, my friends know my rank and know what emote I can show. No need for me to gloat on a forum, as I don't like people who do that in the first place. I made a vaild point, no need to start all-capping every other word to make yours.

Now, onwards to the discussion: Yes, the metagame is spirit-laden. Versus good teams that are looking to go far, that is. Yes, Consume Soul is a good counter. Also, Signet of Creation is another good counter. I suggested the best option to pair the two.

Pheonixtech, I will apply your own arguement to your own post. You said that someone using Sig of Creation will never make it in and out alive? I will turn the tables on you back to the Consume Soul user. That person has to get in the thick of things, and stay there for dozens of seconds to dispatch with all the spirits. Tell me how this poses less of a threat than someone going in there one time to cast a two second spell (of which an interrupt can be countered)? Choking gas only interrupts spells, fyi, not signets.

Final point: double posting is frowned upon.

Choking gas ranger = Savage + Dist shot. Not knowing stuff like that is why I question your intelligence in HA. If you are SO intent on wiping out "all spirits in the area" You're better off getting a nuker and just nuke the damn thing from a distance. Anyways, I've given the OP all of the suggestions he needs to win vs that build (SHELTER FTW, drop a monk) or NUKE/Gas it. Whether he wants to listen or not if up to him. Also the 10-15 seconds is in response to something else, notable the DOOM spike setup where people actually have 14-16 spawning. I wasn't double posting either, just didn't merge the 2 paragraphs.

As for you backtracking and now stating it won't work vs DOOM spike and IWAY and Bspike but Channeling spike. I refer to this (please note you were specifically talking about DOOM spike both times):


You heavily protect the Rt/X or X/Rt, s/he runs in and pops Sig of Creations, then runs out.
Furthermore, it isn't a "dead slot" to counter one build. It will work versus any build that uses spirits (alot), and if what the OP is saying is true, and this mass spirit build being really unstoppable, you can afford to take that one skill rather than another. Would you rather have a skill with you that works to counter any team using spirits, or lose to the Doom Spike nearly every time? The answer is obvious...


Granted, Sig of Creation would not work as well versus Doom Spike. But for the topic at hand, it is a good counter.

[asxtc]

Not talking for you top end players...but down here in the R4 range..

Most of the teams (not all >R3) that try to run this...wouldnt notice someone running into the middle and casting (Consume or SOC)...most of the time they have more problems concentrating on hitting the spike target (which will undoubtably a Monky or Mes). Low lvl spiketeams tend to be in 2 forms...The run quite smoothly when ppl have stayed in the party window for a couple of runs...and the Mayhem and confusion when the caller cocks up :) Most Rits down here tend to get a bit twitchy if they see an Axe warrior bearing down on them...so just gettin all the Rits cast is a job in itself.

I have run a few doomspike..and have just started tweaking the spread of Rituals that the 5 Rits bring along. For the spike it is immaterial which Rits are recharging but Shelter is a must...the rest give a nice added bonus.

Any ideas

[tarutaru]

Choking gas ranger = Savage + Dist shot. Not knowing stuff like that is why I question your intelligence in HA. If you are SO intent on wiping out "all spirits in the area" You're better off getting a nuker and just nuke the damn thing from a distance. Anyways, I've given the OP all of the suggestions he needs to win vs that build (SHELTER FTW, drop a monk) or NUKE/Gas it. Whether he wants to listen or not if up to him. Also the 10-15 seconds is in response to something else, notable the DOOM spike setup where people actually have 14-16 spawning. I wasn't double posting either, just didn't merge the 2 paragraphs.

As for you backtracking and now stating it won't work vs DOOM spike and IWAY and Bspike but Channeling spike. I refer to this (please note you were specifically talking about DOOM spike both times):

Again, please try and follow along here: The person running in there casting Signet of Creation is under heavy protection. Savage and Dist shot are never going to hit them. Choking Gas *would* work, but the skill is a signet, and not a spell. Hence, no interruption by the ranger. Gg?

As it stands, the OP is talking about Channeling Spike, and not Doom spike. I said it would work as a possible counter to Doom spike, and I also said it would not be as good versus it as it would say against the build the OP was inquiring about.

Double posting is the act of making two completely seperate posts when one could have simply edited their first and added in what they forgot to say the first time. (Lord, I don't want this to get into a stupid bickering fight, so just look things up from now on...)

I never said it wouldn't work versus Doom spike. Read what I wrote. Nor did I say it wouldn't work versus Iway or Bloodspike. Again, I have to wonder whether you're just skimming over what I wrote rather than digesting it. I said that if you need skills specifically designed to kill spirits to defeat an Iway or Bspike team, than you have MUCH greater skill problems than this thread can help you with. Simply put: if you can't beat iway or bspike with the meat of your team, then you've got greater issues to deal with than how to beat doom or channel spike.

[ZiegDivine]

Not talking for you top end players...but down here in the R4 range..

Most of the teams (not all >R3) that try to run this...wouldnt notice someone running into the middle and casting (Consume or SOC)...most of the time they have more problems concentrating on hitting the spike target (which will undoubtably a Monky or Mes). Low lvl spiketeams tend to be in 2 forms...The run quite smoothly when ppl have stayed in the party window for a couple of runs...and the Mayhem and confusion when the caller cocks up :) Most Rits down here tend to get a bit twitchy if they see an Axe warrior bearing down on them...so just gettin all the Rits cast is a job in itself.

I have run a few doomspike..and have just started tweaking the spread of Rituals that the 5 Rits bring along. For the spike it is immaterial which Rits are recharging but Shelter is a must...the rest give a nice added bonus.

Any ideas

There is absolutely no way that I'm going to pug this build. It's just not going to happen. And down here in the r3 range, I do notice when a warrior overextends like crazy and I call it.

[Parker Bsb]

1. the double post has been merged

2. asxtc - if you are in a r4 group I'm assuming vent is being used, why not call it yourself? "Guys there's a rit coming in to wreck our spirits" or "hey that warrior is wiping out the important spirits"?

3. Don't flame

That is all

[Xpiher]

Alright so instead of helping you I helped people running the build a little :P

So, we are looking for a counter to a spirit spammer then, hmm. I'll admit, my expierence in HA has demisinshed due to excessive gvg but I think one way to go about this is doing a dual roll of W/Rt instead of a Rt/W. By doing this you combine the power of the warrior (dmg out put and def) with the spirit killing power of a rit. Since warrior will mainly be in the thick of things aways and are generally ignored by chocking gas rangers (why hasn't this skill been used before now lol!) and most interrupt casters, you could get away with a using consume soul, and most likely be able to use Signet of Creation effectively seeing as points in soul reaping aren't needed when your goal is kill OP spirits.

As tarutaru mentioned, in order for channeling strike to be most effective, you need to be holding an item. Since a Rt/W has been mentioned before, it might be good for him/her to take Cruel Was Daoshen along with night mare weapon on a W/Rt, or on a Rt/Wr Vengeful Was Khanhei. Others might want to take something like Generous Was Tsungrai or Blind Was Mingson

The best way i've countered a build that relies on spirit spam is by using a Me/X using blackout drain/shatter enchant. You get a shatter on their boon of creation and black them out in the middle of casting and they aren't going to be able to get spirts off for awhile.

Sorry if this wasn't very informative :/

[lifeinthefridge]

LOL i think i know who you were facing wink wink.... You might have been facing a rank 9+ Rit spike with a leader called Merro the noob yes we ussually hold with a build like this everynight

For those of you inexperienced with the build yes we do use a ranger...but all i can say is without giving away the whole build is yes he does bring fertile season...Many teams have watched us on observermode since the original factions preview event andhave tried to copy us:laugh:

Mabye youll see us on observer too

Btw ill give you a hint theres no channeling,there is communing and spawning power, but really we are the only team that ussually runs this build so chances are you ran into us as you might of noticed if it was us the spike was incredible and impossible to infuse :)

first of all, i'm pretty sure it's not channeling spike...but instead it's a doom spike, a skill from the spawning line....my guidlies and friends were in the grp, tho not sure if it's the same one u ran into... was the leader R Two D Two? Anyways, if this build continues to be played, i'm sure A-Net will nerf it somehow, since it's potential is unbelievable, as almost nothing...spikes, pressure, hex (bcuz of 3 monks), will be able to take this build out because of unbelievable protection =]


BTW R TWO D TOO copied our teams build recently and we beat him in halls several times as we were holding.... I guess people follow and copy what wins....

In fact i remember recieving a pm the other day saying some guy named r two d two was copying our build.. really upsetting

[Mr Dbest]

Ya i know that R2D2 copied your Doom spike, but i thot he was running 5 rits and 3 monks, while you have only 2 doom rits...Sry if i was misleading....Of course Merro came up with original Doom Spike idea.... =]

[David Holtzman]

Again, please try and follow along here: The person running in there casting Signet of Creation is under heavy protection. Savage and Dist shot are never going to hit them. Choking Gas *would* work, but the skill is a signet, and not a spell. Hence, no interruption by the ranger. Gg?

Snide commentary only makes you look bad when it turns out you're wrong. See, every choking gas ranger in this game takes Seeking arrows. In fact, the ONLY reason they have choking gas is because they need PS for seeking ANYWAYS. All that protection you were talking about won't do a blessed thing to a ranger with PS/Seeking.

[Xpiher]

Intresting so channeling stike isn't whats used? Thanks for the tip though, making a build right now that should be pretty good with healing Def and everything else using channeling stike, look like it could work too, but only time will tell.

[lifeinthefridge]

Ya i know that R2D2 copied your Doom spike, but i thot he was running 5 rits and 3 monks, while you have only 2 doom rits...Sry if i was misleading....Of course Merro came up with original Doom Spike idea.... =]

nope 4 doom rits

of course this build follows after the old gaze from beyond spike

btw this is Eoe Bomber if you know me

[ZiegDivine]

You might have been facing a rank 9+ Rit spike

Rank doesn't impress me. Other than that, thanks for the info.

[Mr Dbest]

wait, did u mean u ran 4 doom rits or did r2d2 run 4 doom rits?

n ure IGN is Eoe Bomber?

Can i ask u a few questions?

My IGN~ Mr Fairye or Holye Heale

So don't be surprised if i PM k =]

[lifeinthefridge]

wait, did u mean u ran 4 doom rits or did r2d2 run 4 doom rits?

n ure IGN is Eoe Bomber?

Can i ask u a few questions?

My IGN~ Mr Fairye or Holye Heale

So don't be surprised if i PM k =]


k no problem if i dont respond i might be doing somthing just add that name to
your fl

[Phoenixtech]

Yeah I run into Merro and his group ever so often during our HOH run. Always a good fight. I wouldn't say it's IMPOSSIBLE to infuse tho :), we always have shelter + fertile up vs you guys and I make it a point to stick someone on merro so he won't harrass our people when he comes out of his ward. There's another group that runs a very similar setup too, that's why I mentioned there was 2-3 groups that runs this build. Is Merro the one that runs R/Mes with leech signet or is that the other guy? Eitherway, see you guys in combat, I look forward to more good matches, and don't feel bad about people copying your build lol, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

As for tarutaru, please just stop making a fool out of yourself. You've already been found making self-contradictory statements, you are just digging yourself even deeper. PS + Seeking + Gas + savage + dist shot + flurry/frenzy = core of choking gas. The seeking + savage is the WHOLE reason the build was invented, it allows for non-stop interupt of ghostly capping.

[tarutaru]

As for tarutaru, please just stop making a fool out of yourself. You've already been found making self-contradictory statements, you are just digging yourself even deeper. PS + Seeking + Gas + savage + dist shot + flurry/frenzy = core of choking gas. The seeking + savage is the WHOLE reason the build was invented, it allows for non-stop interupt of ghostly capping.

I haven't been making self-contradictory statements. I might have left certain things to assumption, or may have mis-worded certain things, but I've stuck with the same story the whole way through. For Channeling spike groups w/ or w/o any real interrupt power, Signet of Creation is the way to go.

Oh, and for both you and David: I hoped I wouldn't have to spell it out. The heavy protection is for dealing with any spike damage, and not just for the Choking Gas rangers. The Ritualist can deal with the rangers all on its own. One little Mantra is all it needs for that. Yes, CG rangers were perfected for Ghostly interrupts, but there's a distinct difference between a GH that cannot protect itself and a real live player. Trust me, I've dealt with too many Choking Gas rangers before to count them. I know how to deal with them when you need to get a skill off...

Lifeinthefridge, you might not know me, but in a few of the circles I run in we know of you and Merro. Since I probably won't get a chance to say this anywhere else, if you could just relay to Merro a sincere "grats!" on one of my favorite builds to come out of factions. Always a pleasure to face or watch :smiley: And the spiking through Fertile was a good addition on the part of the build. Definately a wise use of over-spike, imo.

(P.S. My appologies to Parker for some choice comments that I have made over the last week. Been going through some stuff outside of the game that's made me a little pissed off at the world. Turning on the news and knowing that I've got friends over there isn't helping any. I know it's no excuse for bad behavior, but it's all I got.)

[lifeinthefridge]

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8617/gwoninepostwi1.jpg

[asxtc]

Parker...your absolutely right...if the warrior over-extends he becomes a higher priority target..

What I was trying to say was...not all players see the situation as an oppertunity but fluster instead. Not everyone can call (been in loads of teams where they ask.."can someone call plz?"...and no-one will)..so what happens with our out of position Warrior..he ends up wreaking havoc.

[Parker Bsb]

If you want something done right, do it yourself.

What I mean is, take charge... if your caller can't handle changing to a target that is a significant threat; jumping in and saying "spike this dude in 3...2...1..." is not going to break the team.

Course they may expect you to start calling spikes, but at least you know you've got the best person doing the job.

[BobbyEwing]

About Signet of Creation. As I see it it just won't be very effective: Sure, you may be able to run in there and get it off. And then what?

Imagine this scenario: The enemy rts has just put a bunch of spirits up. You manage to hit them all with SoC (unlikely unless they are stupid and put them all in the same spot). Then you wait for 30 secs (all the while the spirits are buffed by your SoC) and then they go poof. It's likely that you didn't get in there until maybe 10-15 secs after they where cast, and this time + the time before SoC goes off means that most spirits should be ready to be put down again as soon as the first set die (all will if they use rit lord, they can even start puting new ones down before the old die then). Then you have to rush in again and SoC the new spirits. All the SoC will do is make sure that the spirits stay up for 30 secs in most cases.

Given this, you cast SoC, kite for 30 secs, then have maybe 10-20 seconds do actually do something before you have to start over again with SoC -> kiting. And during all of those 30 secs of kiting, doom spikes (if they use them) are fully effective, meaning you will have a hard time preventing losses.

Then again, I may be totally wrong. I don't have a tiger after all ;)

[scamPOR]

How can you claim doom spike.. the skill was made for spiking. Obviously spamming useful spirits is >>> non-useful ones. The build is just a mixed spike with 3 rits... Hardly something totally new.

[JodoKast]

What i saw once on observer mode is a Rt/A tasked with spirit killing.

Recall, Spirit walk, Consume Soul (high attribute scores so high healing), <cancel Recall>

He could probably use signet of creation as well (the one i saw wasn't using it though) and he spends the rest of his time using weapon spells and some support spirit (with slow recharge though).

Now that is a niche character but I though it was quite clever and nice thinking out of the box.

@Pheonix

This is not an ego contest, no need to be aggresive. You're also taking ownership of other people's argument to feed yours, which is not well mannered either.

@David

I still have one question, why is the build called Choking Gaz Ranger if CG is only a byproduct of Seeking Arrows ?

I can see Seeking being very important on altar games but Choking is an integral part of the build i would say. I'm not very experienced with HA though.

[David Holtzman]

I still have one question, why is the build called Choking Gaz Ranger if CG is only a byproduct of Seeking Arrows ?

Because choking gas came first. The idea of a pracstance/cg ranger was around a long time before seeking, it just wasn't very good. With seeking and the buff to practiced stance, cg rangers actually had a point.

I can see Seeking being very important on altar games but Choking is an integral part of the build i would say. I'm not very experienced with HA though.

Choking is certainly nice, but the purpose is a seeking platform for interrupting ghosts.

[Selene Raseth]

How would destroying spirits ruin a doom spike? They don't need spirits around to cast doom, just have them recharging. And running in to use SoC is a bad idea in case they have lamentation equipped. 1/4 cast, 5 energy spell that hits for 106 armor ignoring damage to anyone near a corpse or spirit. You'd best make sure someone casts spirit bond on you before running in, or you're toast.

[Phoenixtech]

@Pheonix

This is not an ego contest, no need to be aggresive. You're also taking ownership of other people's argument to feed yours, which is not well mannered either.



If it was an ego contest I wouldn't have let this thread go even though the guy is still completely wrong. Using other people's argument against them is part of a debate, especially when their arguments are incorrect.

As for being "Aggressive". I'm not the one being snide and making remarks like "I hope I wouldn't have to spell it out for you" while being TOTALLY wrong. Anyways, I spend more time these days on another forum anyways, talk all you want.

FYI: Rit/A to destroy spirits in HA is pretty rare. What I've seen is people running W/Rt or A/Rt (uses spirit walk) to get rid of spirits with consume soul while being able to pressure the spirit spammer.

[ZiegDivine]

As for being "Aggressive". I'm not the one being snide and making remarks like "I hope I wouldn't have to spell it out for you" while being TOTALLY wrong. Anyways, I spend more time these days on another forum anyways, talk all you want.

Both you and tarutaru are comparing opinions. There are no "TOTALLY wrong" opinions.

[Phoenixtech]

Both you and tarutaru are comparing opinions. There are no "TOTALLY wrong" opinions.

You are right, it's a popularity contest. I mean, someone can say mending is the best PVP skill ever and it would just be his opinion. If you try to argue against a bunch of wammos that mending isn't the best skill ever they'd tell you about the times they single handedly took down an entire team 4 on 1 with his w/mo. It would just be your opinion vs his really and who's to argue that mending ISN'T the best skill for PVP. Normally I'd say I was sarcastic but these forums have been like this lately.

I think the best way to decide which "opinion" is best suited for everyone is to bring SOC to HA and find out for themselves.

[scamPOR]

If you really want to "pwn" doom spike run QZ and force them to kill your spirits. If it is channeling spike I think shelter would work nicely.

[Xpiher]

If you really want to "pwn" doom spike run QZ and force them to kill your spirits. If it is channeling spike I think shelter would work nicely.


Shelter should work on doom spike as well. I think the problems, at least as I see itm is the fact that shelter kills it self after the first spike and then the pressure is one since, I'm assuming, one of the rit lords takes dmg dealing spirts.

[JodoKast]

FYI: Rit/A to destroy spirits in HA is pretty rare. What I've seen is people running W/Rt or A/Rt (uses spirit walk) to get rid of spirits with consume soul while being able to pressure the spirit spammer.

I didn't imply it was common.

It is similar to the A/Rt you describe, only it focus more on the heal boost rather than pressure on spirit spammer.
It was on a blood spike group too, which might explain why pressuring mattered less and healing more.

[tarutaru]

If it was an ego contest I wouldn't have let this thread go even though the guy is still completely wrong. Using other people's argument against them is part of a debate, especially when their arguments are incorrect.

As for being "Aggressive". I'm not the one being snide and making remarks like "I hope I wouldn't have to spell it out for you" while being TOTALLY wrong. Anyways, I spend more time these days on another forum anyways, talk all you want.

I'd still like to see where I'm completely wrong, btw. And I didn't hope I would have to spell it out for you about how to deal with casting a 2 second skill versus a CG ranger. And you were getting a tad aggressive, not alot, but enough for me to warrant a response.

[Phoenixtech]

I'd still like to see where I'm completely wrong, btw. And I didn't hope I would have to spell it out for you about how to deal with casting a 2 second skill versus a CG ranger. And you were getting a tad aggressive, not alot, but enough for me to warrant a response.

Let's recap. First you state that SOC is the answer to all spirits in the current meta (It's not). Second, you said to counter doom spike all you'd need would be to throw a "whole bunch of protection" on the rit/x, x/rit then have him walk in there and cast it (which is a VERY bad idea since if you throw your SB on your rit/x, x/rit your infuser will get SPIKED) then kite around for 30 seconds (ineffective). Oh BTW, in case you don't know, that build includes Wonderlust so you standing still casting your signet most likely means non-stop KD (I believe they also have Gaze of Contempt/Disenchantment, depending on who's build it is to stripe your "protection" off you unless you decided to put SB on your rit then they'll just spike your infuser).

Then things get funny. We tell you that alot of people run CG rangers in the build (Merro runs a diff setup with dual shot/fertile to complement his spike and help hold but he still has interupts), you initially didn't even know CG had savage + dist shot (and was quiet snide about it), after we told you that fact you start backtracking saying that it's now rit/mes, mes/rit as you would need to bring mantra to prevent being interupted. All of this over an INEFFECTIVE strategy of casting SOC in the middle of their ward + spirits (which won't even affect all of the spirits since they can just spread it out). Now you want to "spell it out for me how to cast a 2 sec skill vs a CG ranger", for a guy who didn't even know what the build was you certainly talk big. Let me take a stab at it, PRESS ESC to cancel and fake out the interupts? OMG WTFBBQHAX.

Finally, the doom spike build is a HOLDING build, it is designed as such. Teams that run holding builds have a tendency to try to get hall skips, so most of the time you'll only run into builds like this at HOH where "kiting around for 30 seconds" = valuable time lost and them HOLDING the altar.

Like they say, you can only lead a horse to the water. Keep being snide in your ignorance for all I care.

[JodoKast]

Let's recap. First you state that SOC is the answer to all spirits in the current meta (It's not). <followed by a very precise description of a worst case scenario that obviously makes it impossible for SOC to be used at all>

Now i will admit i have no opinion or experience on the signet but i am dissapointed to see that "high level" discussion always seem to fall into this generalization of worst case scenario to prove a point....

You are not proving that SOC isn't a good answer to the current metagame, you are simply proving that it is not working against the exact theroritical scenario you describe (which is obviously biased toward proving your point) and extrapolate from there to say it is useless against the current metagame.....

[Phoenixtech]

Now i will admit i have no opinion or experience on the signet but i am dissapointed to see that "high level" discussion always seem to fall into this generalization of worst case scenario to prove a point....

You are not proving that SOC isn't a good answer to the current metagame, you are simply proving that it is not working against the exact theroritical scenario you describe (which is obviously biased toward proving your point) and extrapolate from there to say it is useless against the current metagame.....

Without any opinions on SOC itself. My quote was "First you state that SOC is the answer to all spirits in the current meta (It's not)." Which when you reword = "SOC is not the answer to ALL SPIRITS in the current meta". How did you extrapolate that into me saying it was USELESS? Who's biased one here?

[JodoKast]

Without any opinions on SOC itself. My quote was "First you state that SOC is the answer to all spirits in the current meta (It's not)." Which when you reword = "SOC is not the answer to ALL SPIRITS in the current meta". How did you extrapolate that into me saying it was USELESS? Who's biased one here?

I'll rephrase then.

You are trying to prove that SOC is not in general a good answer to the current meta by providing an extremely biased scenario where that signet obviously have no chance of being effective at all .

You then conclude that because of that it doesn't answer the current meta.The only thing that you proved in fact is that SOC is not an effective counter to the specific worst case scenario you describe.


My remark is not aimed at supporting SOC at all, i am just dissapointed that too often the trick of using a tailored unfavorable example is used to prove general points.

You're not the first person to do it either.

[tarutaru]

.....

Listen, it's pretty obvious that you're not letting this go until I say that I am a noob and that everything I said was completely wrong. But, for the sake of arguements, let's recap:

- I said SoC was one answer to spirits in the build the OP described: Channeling Spike.
- I said that SoC could work versus a Doom spike, but would be nowhere near as effective.
- I would personally not use SoC as a counter to Ritualist Spiker groups, but I did say it is a viable option. I would go with a Consume Soul rit if I wanted to out-right counter it, but the metagame doesn't have enough of these groups by this point to warrant it.
- All of my scenarios I stated were originally intended for a channeling spike, again with an addendum that they might work versus Doom spike. Again, I personally would not use SoC, but I was trying to think outside of the box. God forbid...
- In any situation, you could provide a very specific scenario that will counter my line of thought. That's the beauty of GW, there's a counter to everything. However, using that very specific circumstance and using it as the end-all be-all closing of discussion is, for a lack of better words, incorrect.
- Still, you were providing situations from a possible Doom spike, while I was discussing for the most part SoC versus Channeling spike.
- You mentioned that Doom spike runs CG rangers. You did not "tell me." THis I already knew. Mute point since I'm discussing Channeling spike, but I humored you...
- I then modified my stance, since you wanted to press on about Doom spike, to say the SoC could possibly work, in the right circumstances.
- You then try and completely refute it, making it seem like I know nothing about what a CG ranger is. I knew the whole time exactly what a CG ranger was and what build it ran. I didn't want to go down that alley b/c I, still, was continuing on about Channeling spike.
- However, I finally stated that IF you should, for some reason, want to use SoC versus Doom spike, the Rit could just use a mantra.
- You continue to say that I knew nothing about what a CG ranger was. No, I just didn't want to get that situation specific, since I wasn't talking about a Doom spike.
- Since you still would not let up about CG rangers, I went completely off-topic and stated that it isn't that hard to figure out how to cast a 2 second skill versus one.
- Now, finally, in your last post you talk about an even MORE specific situation, decribing it in HoH. For the last time, I am talking about Channeling spike, you are talking about Doom spike. I tried to apply SoC versus Doom spike, but continued to say that it would be nowhere near as effective as other counters.
- I appoligized if my words sounded harsh. You have yet to do so.

To wrap this up, and in case it hasn't been grasped yet, we are talking about two completely different builds. I entertained the discussion into trying to apply my arguement to the build you went on about, all the while saying it would not work as good. You on several occasions tried to insinuate that I knew nothing about the game by delving deeper into more and more specific scenarios, and bringing up new aspects of it while claiming that I never knew those aspects to exist. That's like me bringing up right now that scientists are debating whether the solar system has 12 planets or 8, and since you didn't mention that point or try and argue it in your above points, that you obviously know nothing about science. Which would be very ignorant of me indeed.

[Goldfish God]

nobody seems to have mentioned this, but there was a general brainstorm about an 8-man build, which might be a varient on what was encountered. http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=415386

[Phoenixtech]

LOL, this is very entertaining the way you backtrack. Here you hype up SOC like it's the solution to channeling spike, ZERO mention of Consume Soul until other people have brought it up. Notice you said that "if too many people start using it", which implies metagame.

No nerf needed. All that will happen if too many people start using it is that every team will require one of their characters to have a Ritualist subclass and just take Signet of Creation.

Throw as much protection onto the X/Ri as possible, he/she runs into the fray of all those spirits, clicks on Signet of Creation, then runs out. Team stalls for 30 seconds, then BOOM!, and mops the floor with the exposed ritualists w/o any of their spirits. Like I said, no intervention on anet's part needed.

After people kept telling you it won't work, you now change your tune.


- I would personally not use SoC as a counter to Ritualist Spiker groups, but I did say it is a viable option. I would go with a Consume Soul rit if I wanted to out-right counter it, but the metagame doesn't have enough of these groups by this point to warrant it.

So, if the metagame warrants it, aka, "if too many people start using it", You personally wouldn't use SOC, yet you advise other people to use it in your initial argument? Why not simply start with Consume soul that EVERYONE runs anyways. I mean, your initial motive was trying to help the OP counter channeling spike (which is a subgroup of rit spike), and you claimed that no nerf is needed by bringing up SOC by hyping it up so much. Now you want to backtrack and state that you personally wouldn't use it, and perfer Consume Soul? How hypocritical is that? What kind of advice you giving people if you wouldn't use it yourself?