SPOILER: The name of the 6th / new god is mentioned on the Prerelease CD by accident [Archive]

Ivan Drago

14-09-2006, 14:45

I think I found the name of the 6th god by accident on the prerelease CD, there is also an image of him that I will upload later.

SPOILER. Do not read on if you do not want to know the name.
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Concept Art "Abaddon.jpg". This pic is also displayed under all references to the unnamed god.

Also remember the prophecies mission "Abaddon's Mouth"

I am not 100% sure, but I think it is very likely at least. Also, Abaddon's realm of desolation/torment looks like the corrupted tombs and Margonite creatures are very similar to Grasps of Insanity seen there and once in Shing Jea during the event.

The second pic seems to be a Margonite Servant, somewhat kept in similar style and fashion as Abaddon.

Here are the pics (concept art and pdf, combined two pics)
CLICK TO ENLARGE

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8939/abbadonno3.th.jpg (http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abbadonno3.jpg)

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3264/abaddon2hm4.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abaddon2hm4.jpg)

midnightangel

14-09-2006, 14:53

Good find :P

Adslahnit

14-09-2006, 14:55

Name was eradicated from all history, eh?

Nice one on forgetting to take out the Abaddon in "Abaddon's Mouth".

That is, IF, and only IF, the god's name is truly Abaddon.

Quintus Antonius

14-09-2006, 14:55

I don't buy it yet. Abaddon means "destroyer" in Hebrew, which is an accurate description of what the god has been doing. So, they named the picture essentially "destruction.jpg". I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions yet, but I will say it seems possible.

It appears, regardless of his name, he is the one responsible for the corruption of the volcano and lava flows of the Ring of Fire islands (I'm basing this off the screenshot, and how the lavaflows look). I find the little description interesting also, "Name was banished". Sounds like the Great Destroyer (of Dwarven lore), funny, Abaddon means Destroyer.

What I'm curious about, is why they'd choose the name "Abaddon", which as mentioned means "destruction" or "destroyer", when there is already a God of Destruction (Menzies).

Either way, looks like the Lich may have been trying to set him free. I'd say this guy was probably trapped in the Door of Komalie and released when the Titans were. Perhaps the Mursaat were saving our butts in ways we didn't even know? It'd be nice to learn more about them. (Yes, I do always focus on the Mursaat!)

So, "Abaddon" may be his name, but I'm going to wait to see. I don't think they'd let something slip that easily.

EDIT: I also notice that "Abaddon" (as we shall codename him for now), looks remarkably like the traditionalized look of the Grim Reaper. He also bears a resemblence to Grenth. So, I'm not abandoning my theory that he may be Dhuum just yet. As someone who posted above me said, if his name was forgotten, Abaddon's Mouth is a big opps on the part of the Old Gods.

One other thing, in my opinion, "Abaddon" looks remarkably like the Seers. That's just an offhand observation and opinion though.

EDIT II: The language of his description also mirrors the language used to describe Dhuum. Dhuum's name was, for all intents and purposes, banished, except in the Underworld, and consider it was a Reaper mentioned it (they are probably a bit more privy to things), I'd still say that this "Abaddon" could be Dhuum. The evidence is still pretty strong.

GhostBoy

14-09-2006, 15:01

Now, I wonder if this guy has any relation to the Great Destroyer from Prophecies (the God supposedly defeated by The Great Dwarf, who struck his name from all records.)

If you read the text for the servants in the picture above:
Now the wise see signs that this fallen god may be at work in the world again. His name was eradicated from all history, burnished from all monuments, condemned as blasphemy... yet still the servants of the unholy watch and wait. With sharpened blades and practiced spells, his followers prepare for the return of their forgotten and forsaken deity. Just as night follows day, they fervently believe he will return. Working the will of a patient and potent force of evil in the world, they await the onset of Nightfall

Dhuum has been mentioned many times, but he's not exactly forgotten and nameless nor has he only recently started meddling (indirectly at least). He's been waging a silent war in the Underworld for a long time.

The Great Destroyer however, fits this bill (the last reference to his name was supposedly in a book which was the centerpiece of the Unpeakable, Unknowable quest). He seems to fit that description a lot better, and still has the link back to previous chapters that is supposedly there.

Art Yi Mor

14-09-2006, 15:02

So Abbadon is displayed under all references to the unnamed god eh?

Makes some sense, plus I suppose that noone really oes near the Fire Isles too much so you could stretch the scurge of his name to all of civillisation.

Be nice to know.

Cheers for the info!

-Art

TaSTY

14-09-2006, 15:03

Omg,

They just took Lord Recluse, the Powerfull lord of City Of Villians and changed him a little >_<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Recluse

Sir Jack

14-09-2006, 15:03

His name was eradicaed from history, burnished from all monuments, condemned as blasphemy

Dunno if they'd still give his name to an area, seeing as his name was completely removed from history. Though that'd also mean Dhuum and Mhenzies are out too since they're pretty well known in FoW/UW. It also seems said deity was originally part of the current Pantheon of the Gods, but cast down by Grenth, Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna and Balthasar...

Quintus Antonius

14-09-2006, 15:08

"Before the time of Grenth, when death was ruled by a cruel and unjust god, there stood a tower and a throne on this very plain. But Grenth rose up and destroyed the one called Dhuum and shattered down his tower, leaving only these storms of chaos as a reminder of the power that once held dominion here. My vigil over these lands was broken for a time, and I can feel a resurgence of the old taint. Four horsemen approach, riders of Dhuum. Destroy them before they can reclaim this place and throw the underworld into chaos!"

Dhuum is only mentioned once, by this one Reaper, and it was out of desperation that he shared that information.

He wasn't that well known at all. I remember back when Prophecies was the only chapter, no one could remember his name. I constantly spelled it wrong, or just said "That other god in the UW".

ShadowSword

14-09-2006, 17:12

Omg,

They just took Lord Recluse, the Powerfull lord of City Of Villians and changed him a little >_<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Recluse

Except the fact that he's a God you mean?

Drec Sutal

14-09-2006, 17:35

Hrm... I find the concept of a God forgotten to be really interesting. First off, I'd like to point out that you can't defend against something that you don't remember, and second the sheer improbability of "erasing" knowledge from a society with the ability to write. Even if you do get every existing document in existance, people still remember, and can write again once you are gone. That said, I think the best place to find such knowledge would be... the archives of Oor. Yea, the forgoten/forbidden scroll the vizear used, that caused the cataclysm. Could the use of a scroll that was part of this God's magic (If it didn't mention him by name it could have been overlooked) combined with the huge magical disturbences from the completion of the known parts of the flameseeker prophecies and the distrubences of the mists with Shiro's little fun have distracted enough attention from whatever prevented this new/old God's return that he is now coming back?

Also suddenly brought to the front of my attention is the elementalist... each branch of elemental magic is dedicated to a different god, IIRC... also, each profession (presumably INCLUDING dervish and paragon) is dedicated to one of the old gods, and when a God wipes the world clean of a memory, they arn't going to "miss" an entire country connected to tyria, so I'd say dervish goes to balthazar, and paragon probably somewhere else, maybe melandru. The question becomes, then... who will worship this new god? Will entire professions go over, or will you maybe get a choice? Would worshiping a new God give you new spells and skills, and even lose you old ones?

It also seems to me that this new God is probably *NOT* Dhuum or Mhenzies, as they were both clearly before the pantheon, and held specific places now held by balthazar and grenth. The new God would have been a part of the pantheon, and held a distinct place... and there just happens to be such a place.

It is interesting to note is that there are 6 core professions, but only 5 gods. Balthazar has warriors, Dwayna has monks, Melandru has rangers, Grenth necromancers, and Lyssa has mesmers. The elementalist, though... is split up for each line of magic, having no God of its own. And yet, there was once a sixth God (presumably living in Tyria with the others and as such he would be known and worshiped there). *He may well have been the god of elementalists and could take this place again, possibly adding the paragon *(I mean balthazar has warrior, and presumably assassin and dervish, so a God can have 2)

Edit: Also, I still think that this might be important enough to have an actual appearence from one or more of the other old Gods at some point in the game, probably the end. A good chance of not, and possibly only given voice through the avatars, but we *could* see balthazar getting seriously nasty in the face of this God, or at the least Dwayna giving us back life after he randomly slays us (again).

Arkhan The Black

14-09-2006, 17:38

Well now it makes sense. The tome in Furnace of Sorrow probably holds the name of Abaddon. Maybe you need to know the name of the god to summon him?

In Revelation 9:11, it is described personified as the demon Abaddon, "Angel of the Abyss", rendered in Greek as Apollyon.".

Ivan Drago

14-09-2006, 17:38

Please also note that the concept art "Abaddon" is portrayed with a Scythe.

The Scythe is in GW associated with the Dervish, but in general also with the "Reaper" and death.

Grenth struggled with this Dhuum guy over control of the Underworld, not with Abaddon. Maybe Abaddon is only the "first lackey" of Dhuum or something like that.

Maybe the 6 red eye slits also show some relation to the 6 eyed Margonites. In this case Abaddon would not be a god.

Though his name is indeed quite godly, as Quintus pointed out, "The Destroyer".

windcaller

14-09-2006, 17:46

theory: we know that the Dervish is attuned to the Godly power. he has a scythe.

this new God has a Scythe..

what's the posibility of the old gods rewarding the Dervish for turning his back on the forgotten god and joining in powers with them?

i can hear a dialogue:"If you join us, we will give you our blessings. You can call for our inspiration (avatar) whenever you need it. HE must be destroyed."

just a theory tho.

also do we know how Dhuum looks like? he might have 2 names given by 2 different cultures..just for the sake of hiding for a while

shadow the hero

14-09-2006, 17:54

Abaddon, hmmm i heard that Name before :/
OH YEAH! Abaddon the Dispoiler, son of Warmaster Horus. from Warhammer 40k.

Arkhan The Black

14-09-2006, 17:58

Abaddon, hmmm i heard that Name before :/
OH YEAH! Abaddon the Dispoiler, son of Warmaster Horus. from Warhammer 40k.

Oh yes good old Abaddon the Despoiler. Although Games Workshop did not invent his name.

tomezadas

14-09-2006, 18:03

i still think we gonna have sum surprise, i bet Arena.Net is working on something really big

shadow the hero

14-09-2006, 18:08

i still think we gonna have sum surprise, i bet Arena.Net is working on something really big Could be fun if Anet made Abaddon so big you needed to walk up off his Arms to damage his head xD

Quintus Antonius

14-09-2006, 18:09

I agree Tomezadas. I don't think ANet would let it slip this easily after building it up for so long. "Abaddon" may be a title, or it may be a codename. Although, the possibility does exist that it is the god's name. I find it hard to believe that all the evidence we had pointing to Dhuum was so completely wrong. That's not to say Dhuum doesn't have some kind of hand in it if it isn't him though. You just can't ignore all the evidence.

Volitar

14-09-2006, 18:16

I think it is possible that this corrupt ruler who is summoning the outcast god will use a spell that allows him or her to assume the avatar of this outcast god and that is how this god comes to be in the mortal realm.

I also think Abaddon is simply a title for this outcast god. Just like how Shiro was "The Betrayer." Or in religion sometimes important figures are given various titles such as "Lord of Lies." If his name has been erased from history, people may simply not know his name so they simply refer to him as Abaddon.

Whatever the case may be, the story for Nightfall is getting more and more interesting. :grin:

Ivan Drago

14-09-2006, 18:24

Yeah, maybe there will be a connection between the Lich, Abaddon's Mouth, Dhuum, Shiro, the Invasion of Shing Jea and this god in Nightfall.

BTW: There is also the concept art of a Margonite Paragon with the following description:

Margonite Paragon (Vizier)

Maybe it is coincidence and has nothing to mean, after all there can be many Vhiziers and Elona is inspired by Africa/Arabian culture, but Vhizier always reminds me of the Lich.

Maybe we will see some more about "The Grand Master Plan of this God to retake his place and destroy the existing gods"

1st failure - Lich, Mursaat and Flameseeker Prophecies.
2nd failure - Shiro, 2 incidents, one in ages past, one only some time ago.
3rd try - Nightfall. Together with creatures of the realm of Torment, Margonites and this corrupt ruler, I guess this "Morgahn" which already has been mentioned could be this.

After all, Morgahn sounds like Morrigan or Morgana, celtic queen of battle and whatever and the rather evil enema of King Arthur.

windcaller

14-09-2006, 18:29

Quintus Antonius

14-09-2006, 18:48

I'd like to clear something up. It's Marganite, not Margonite. It may be completely unrelated to the ancient Luxon civilization that preceeded the Elonians in the Crystal Desert.

Valium in a Hallway

14-09-2006, 19:13

I don't buy it, nice find though

boxterduke

14-09-2006, 20:46

And who is this?
http://www.guildwars.com/gallery/screenshots/nightfall/gwn-scr013-lrg.php

Sir Jack

14-09-2006, 21:00

And who is this?
http://www.guildwars.com/gallery/screenshots/nightfall/gwn-scr013-lrg.php

Either just a statue to represent/worship Paragons (Archangels, battle stuff, blablabla...), or the one that started the Order of the PAragons so to speak (or maybe something about the Sunspears, seems to be a big deal).
Either way, I doubt it's the image of the 6th cast down God, since he seems pretty common in Elona judging from the screens, while said deity was removed from history (I'm guessing it's easier for the Gods to smash a few Statues then to wipe clean the memory of all humans).

halfthought

14-09-2006, 21:10

now that I saw it, I wish I didnt, I HOPING that this isnt right as it wouldve spoiled nightfall for me :)

Giantsquid

14-09-2006, 21:21

I do not believe it will be a scythe as in death, dervishes or any of that...

Throughout history, what are scythes used for? I say the new god is the god of farming! And they need these scythes to help with the wheat fields!

Yes, you heard it here first! Now you also will, if you are a ranger, be able to have a sheep, chicken or cow as a pet more than likely... If you are not a Ranger then you can have these things for dinner.

Poisoned Hunter

14-09-2006, 21:50

Ha, I always thought that the Marganites/Margonites had to do with this thing but I think the main thing we are losing here is that you guys are more focusing on: The New God is EVIL, what if the New God isn't evil? What if he will help you destroy this *DARKNESS* that has taken control of Elona.
Thoughts?

logik

14-09-2006, 21:50

Ranger Nietzsche

14-09-2006, 22:08

I agree with Giantsquid. In some Roman mythology Saturn, father of Zeus and the 6 parent gods of the pantheon, was the god of the harvest and always was depicted with a Scythe. He also ruled over Italy in past days in what was essentially a "golden age" of prosperity and happiness

clearly thats what this new god is bringing. Glint just wants to stop it cuz she's a *****.

rideyellowbus

14-09-2006, 22:17

the coolest one among the 6 gods if he is indeed one of em

Arkhan The Black

14-09-2006, 22:34

Well now that I think about it Glint probably wanted to keep Abaddon a secret. He was suppose to be forgotten and never to return again but now with that mad ruler this has changed.

CMEPTb

14-09-2006, 22:36

Well now that I think about it Glint probably wanted to keep Abaddon a secret. He was suppose to be forgotten and never to return again but now with that mad ruler this has changed.

Thank you mad ruler :D!

Ivan Drago

14-09-2006, 22:41

I'd like to clear something up. It's Marganite, not Margonite. It may be completely unrelated to the ancient Luxon civilization that preceeded the Elonians in the Crystal Desert.

I do not think so, as the concept renders all are named

Margonite-Mesmer, Margonite-Paragon, Margonite... and the PDF also talks a lot about the Margonites, not the Marg a nites.

I think this was simply a typo of the magazine, as the Marganite Paragon is on the disk as Margonite Paragon.

The Margonites also battled Turai Ossa and so on, you can read a lot about the war in the Crystal Desert.

Gmr Leon

14-09-2006, 22:46

I'd like to clear something up. It's Marganite, not Margonite. It may be completely unrelated to the ancient Luxon civilization that preceeded the Elonians in the Crystal Desert.

We aren't really sure that the Margonites were part of an ancient Luxon civilization. I wouldn't go around saying that without confirmation of it's truth.

Also,Ivan,Turrai Ossa didn't battle the Margonites,he fought the Forgotten. I think you got a bit of a mix up there.

Not only that,but could Abaddon be like you said a title. Say,Dhuum the Abaddon. (Dhuum the Destroyer.) He destroyed the lives of probably hundreds when he was in power if you think about it.

teh Monkeys

14-09-2006, 23:03

Abbadon is destruction, the abyss, or the angel of the bottomless pit; the destroyer. It's never used as a title or somesuch.

Quintus Antonius

14-09-2006, 23:07

Okay, well if official sources have called them Margonite, then I'm fine with that. I only pushed that issue because the PC Gamer, which was the only source we had up until now apparently, stated Marganite.

Perhaps this is what happened to the Margonites? They were corrupted by something and now serve "Abaddon". Their fate is a bit of a mystery, afterall.

Also, as others have said, the Elonians and Margonites were seperated by several centuries, they never fought, at least there isn't any indication of that yet. I suppose plot twists from Prophecies may pop up in Nightfall, but as of now, the Elonians and Margonites are not connected, so far as the Crystal Desert in Tyria is concerned.

Ivan Drago

14-09-2006, 23:21

Right, I am not exactly sure WHO battled WHOM at which time

Excerpt from the PDF of the prerelease CD:

Now Elona is troubled by kindred horrors. Civilised nations recognise and
revere the Five True Gods. But heretics speak of a sixth god...a fallen god. A
thousand years ago, the spiritual ancestors of these heretics, the Margonites,
fought an epic battle on the northern plains of Elona. The resulting carnage
created a vast wasteland—the realm now known as the Crystal Desert.
Empowered by the blessings of their dark deity, the Margonites waged war
against the followers of the Five Gods—smashing temples, desecrating shrines
and butchering all rivals. Yet, despite the awesome power granted by horrifi c
transformations, their army was annihilated; their false god exiled to a realm
of torment.
(...)
A statue stands at the base of the Fortress of Jahai, an enduring monument to
Turai Ossa, the saviour of Elona. On that site hundreds of years ago, Turai
defeated the undead lord Palawa Joko, the Scourge of Vabbi—an event that
brought the end of an era and the dawn of a new one.
(...)
After his victory, Warmarshal Ossa had
wealth, power and infl uence. And yet he
yearned for loftier goals. Openly, he ruled
a grateful populace, but secretly, he spent
his nights studying the ancient scrolls
of the Flameseeker Prophecies. Within
its mysteries, Ossa sought Ascension,
a state of communion with the gods. He
believed the path to that goal ran through
the wastelands of northern Elona—lands
devastated by Palawa Joko years before.

The Margonites were fighting for this banished god. They were able to transform, sounds very much like the Dervish. The Margonites are also, which is not mentioned, not human. Human shaped, but they have claws and wear masks or they have a strange head with 6 eyes or wear masks with 6 eyes.

Now the thing about this Joko is, he must not necessarily have been a Margonite.

Seems as if a lot of guys fought and fight for this god.

I think soon all will have thep prerelease pack, and then we can discuss the whole story in detail. :)

Gmr Leon

14-09-2006, 23:26

I would agree with Quintus about the Margonites. Not only that,but I have my theory on it from another topic.

I know the Marganite Paragon and the Margonites may not have a relation,but what if the Marganite creatures are ones who refused to go into the Underworld. As they roamed the Crystal Desert suddenly the Outcast God appears before promising them new life,but they never suspected the end result. The end result is they become mindless soldiers of his army.

Not to far from the information you just provided Ivan. While I was way off I wasn't to far from the actual facts.

Also,thanks for that tidbit of info Ivan.

Santax

14-09-2006, 23:33

Quintus Antonius

14-09-2006, 23:43

Good info. That's what I meant by "plot twist". From what we learn in Prophecies, the Elonians fought amongst themselves in the Crystal Desert eventually deploying WeaponX. The Margonites had been there centuries before and failed Ascending, we know no more about that other than they arrived when the dunes were still underwater. We are also told that the Crystal Desert was made a desert by the Old Gods for the Forgotten, not by humans.

Now it looks like the Margonites have assumed a new role. Unless the Margonites here are only a segment of the original or something.

It may also appear that we will learn more about WeaponX. It appears we were right in that it was what ravaged the Desert, but it looks like we were wrong in how it was used and the circumstances of its use.

My questions now are:
1) When Ossa talks about the "civil war" between the Elonians in the Desert in Prophecies, is he refering to the war between these mutant Margonites and the Elonians.
2) Is WeaponX what ravaged the Desert? We know it was used, we know it existed, we just don't know how, when, or why.

EDIT: I just realized something. There is a time discrepency between when the Margonites existed and when Ossa existed. Ossa lived 200 years ago, give or take a century, according to Prophecies. The Margonite War happens 1000 years ago, according to what we just were shown by Ivan. I doubt Ossa fought the Margonites due to this. OR at least, fought in that war mentioned. It's possible some remained (obviously, as we have to fight them in NF).

EDIT II: That's why Ossa thought he was the chosen one! The Undead Lord he fought must have been the Flameseeker in his eyes. He does sound remarkably like the Lich.

katya

15-09-2006, 00:02

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=420789

Gaile drops a few hints in the latest log. Not much though, but maybe useful for you guys to chew over.

Benovolent Zephyr

15-09-2006, 00:23

I know this might sound very stupid but is it me or does he look very matelic.
Also if what we're hypothsising is true then wow thats a lot of plot holes plugged.

Zaxares

15-09-2006, 05:13

My questions now are:
1) When Ossa talks about the "civil war" between the Elonians in the Desert in Prophecies, is he refering to the war between these mutant Margonites and the Elonians.
2) Is WeaponX what ravaged the Desert? We know it was used, we know it existed, we just don't know how, when, or why.

EDIT: I just realized something. There is a time discrepency between when the Margonites existed and when Ossa existed. Ossa lived 200 years ago, give or take a century, according to Prophecies. The Margonite War happens 1000 years ago, according to what we just were shown by Ivan. I doubt Ossa fought the Margonites due to this. OR at least, fought in that war mentioned. It's possible some remained (obviously, as we have to fight them in NF).

EDIT II: That's why Ossa thought he was the chosen one! The Undead Lord he fought must have been the Flameseeker in his eyes. He does sound remarkably like the Lich.

1. I don't think Ossa was referring to the Margonites when he talked about civil war between the Elonians. There is clear evidence in the Elona Reach mission that the Elonians were fighting among each other, and not against the Margonites.

2. There's too little evidence yet to declare if Weapon X was the weapon that made the Crystal Desert what it is today. It really depends on WHEN the weapon was used.

From the information we have so far, this is how history unfolded, as I see it:

- A thousand years ago, the Margonites attempted Ascension and failed. Sometime during this process, they came to the attention of the Outcast God (Abbaddon, Dhuum, Menzies, we can't be sure of his name yet) with whom some (or even all) of the Margonites made an unholy pact. It's unclear as to whether their pact with the Outcast caused the Margonites to fail Ascension, or whether the Margonites turned to the Outcast after their failure.

- During the first Margonite War, Weapon X is developed and unleashed. The power of the weapon devastates the region and creates the Crystal Desert, killing many of the Margonites in the process. The loss of their base of operations and much of their populace turned them from a fearsome army into a weakened, but still dangerous force.

- The remnants of the Margonite nation continue to menace the northern border of Elona for hundreds of years. Eventually, around 200 odd years ago, the undead warlord known as Palawa Joko rises to power and begins a full scale assault of Elona. This is the second Margonite War. Palawa is met on the field of battle by Turai Ossa, who slays Palawa and soundly defeats the Margonite army, breaking its power.

- Turai Ossa gets it into his head that he and his people are the ones spoken of in the Flameseeker Prophecies, and continues to push on northwards to claim Ascension. Here, they eventually meet their end at the hands of the harsh landscape of the Crystal Desert and the Forgotten.

- The present day. The survivors of second Margonite War have rebuilt their power and forces and are poised for another invasion of Elona. The exact details of this war will be played out through the events of Nightfall.

The question I have now is: If the Margonites were living in the area of the Crystal Desert all this time, what were their relations with the Forgotten like?

Seyfert

15-09-2006, 05:24

very very very interesting stuff, now I really want to know more about the Margonites :(

Zesr Swiftblade

15-09-2006, 05:46

notice in the second picture the mask has a close resemblance to the crimson carapace shield (with the *six eyes changed to two but anywho) :huh:

*edit meant six but its so late XD
\
**Edit - second pic - anyone see the similarities with an Oni?

mysticangelkin

15-09-2006, 06:14

omg...i just realized something. does anyone remember that bony face in the original manual? well look at that bottom picture...thats him!

devilsmom

15-09-2006, 11:52

Gmr Leon

15-09-2006, 13:15

What if that armor animated by the Forgotten is actually Margonite armor? Not likely,but still a thought.

Quintus Antonius

15-09-2006, 14:08

im sorry to tell but ur wrong
abaddon is not destroyer.. its like lost

Am I?

Abaddon (Hebrew אבדון Avadon, meaning "destruction"). In Biblical poetry (Job 26:6; Proverbs 15:11) it comes to mean "place of destruction", or the realm of the dead, and is associated with Sheol. Abaddon is also one of the compartments of Gehenna.

In Revelation 9:11, it is described personified as the demon Abaddon, "Angel of the Abyss", rendered in Greek as Apollyon.

Abaddon is one of the infernal names used in Satanism, and is first in the list (only as it comes first alphabetically), and means "the destroyer."

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
A‧bad‧don /əˈbædn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-bad-n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. Apollyon.
2. a place of destruction; the depths of hell.

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[Origin: < Heb ăbhaddōnōn lit., destruction]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Doesn't look wrong to me.

***

Good write up, Zax. Seems plausible, but I don't think we will know until Nightfall is released.

devilsmom

15-09-2006, 16:01

oh well i guess your right sorry.. i guess my vocab is not that big lol...
well any ways אבדון also means like to lose something... like a place or some thing improtant

Kailden Jera

15-09-2006, 16:05

Lol... It can mean both things... In portugue Abadono or Abadonar means "Lose/Leave" and "To Leave It Behind" respectly. Both are based from the same hebraic word.

Both are right i guess. It depends on what sorce you search.

Quintus Antonius

15-09-2006, 16:39

No harm, no foul. I was just backing up my claim, that's all. The word "abandon" means "to leave behind/to lose". It very well could have come from the Hebrew word "abaddon". Let's not get caught up in semantics though, it isn't important to the overall discussion.

ShadowReapr

15-09-2006, 17:09

Hmm... something that would leave an area barren and wasted by carnage... Nope, not seen that before. :wink:

In my own mind, I'm starting to piece things together. While I don't know all the intricecies of the Titan bits at the end (I joined just before Factions, and haven't got that far), I think their role does stick with the Ancient Greek story of the Titans (Gods that were banished and locked away). Again, not knowing all there is to know, would it be possible that Abbaddon, Dhuum or whatever you want to name him was their leader? And in fact the Charr were infact worshipping him.

This keeps in with the age-old Charr-found-a-scroll idea, as well. What if, they found this scroll, inadvertantly released Abadhuum (for lack of a better term) and then in fact made his attempt at bringing on the Flameseeker Prophecies a second time (the first of course being the Marga/onite).

I dunno - maybe I'm talking utter bull. Unfortunately, who's to say until late October

Quintus Antonius

15-09-2006, 17:15

My goodness....is it possible that is what the Mursaat-type effigies are portraying...? Not the Lich or the Mursaat, but rather this "Abaddon"?

Sir Jack

15-09-2006, 17:25

Hm, the Charr effigies look somewhat like the first pic, though not as much like the second one.
If the first one is in fact the cast down God, the Charr apparently worship the Titans and possibly their master as well with their effigies.
I still think the Charr stick effigies are Mursaat though, as they are the direct ennemy/Gatekeepers of the Titans, and would in a way honor their adversaries with them.

shadow the hero

15-09-2006, 17:57

at some point, both the Jade Armor and Mursaat heads looks alot like Abaddons in the first pic. we all know, that gods creates Creatures and races, did Abaddon create the Mursaat?

Ivan Drago

15-09-2006, 18:32

My goodness....is it possible that is what the Mursaat-type effigies are portraying...? Not the Lich or the Mursaat, but rather this "Abaddon"?

After all, the Mursaat were present in the Ring of Fire and Abaddon's Mouth. It was their Stronghold till our heroes closed the Door of Komalie.

Let me quote the Guru Guild Wiki:
The Door of Komalie is a sealed, magical gate in the Ring of Fire Islands. Locked behind the Door of Komalie are the Titans: a powerful and destructive race. The Mursaat dread the power of the Titans and attempt to ensure the Door is kept closed at all cost. The Door is sealed by the power of Soul Batteries that feed on the souls of the slain Chosen sacrificed on the Bloodstones by the Mursaat and their White Mantle cohorts.

The Lich Lord seeks to unlock the Door of Komalie and recruit the Titans - through the power of the Scepter of Orr - as his own army in an attempt to control all of Tyria. He succeeds in his objective at the end of the Abaddon's Mouth mission through manipulation of the players, who then must fight to close the Door again in the Hell's Precipice mission.

I am not really sure if they Mursaat wanted to keep the door closed or not. I do not entirely trust the GWiki interpretation. Where they GUARDING something or trying to RELEASE something?

Was the Lich only a servant of this "Abaddon/Dhuum" guy or did he develop his own plans?

I am quite sure there is more locked behind this Gate than the Titans only.

Tuor Son Of Huor

15-09-2006, 20:47

Apparantly, no one has noticed/written about this:

http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abbadonno3.jpg

The Altar that the God is standing on looks exactly like the type of architecture seen at the Ring of Fire.

Abbadon is Dhuum. Abbadon is Menzies. Abbadon is coming.

Dum Dum Dummmmmmmmm

Quintus Antonius

15-09-2006, 21:08

There's an interesting idea. Menzies, Dhuum, and Abaddon are just different names for the same troublemarker. I don't think that's the case, but makes you think.

Goldfish God

15-09-2006, 21:20

A couple of other stories have gone with lost gods only being named by subsitute names (or even the basic "he who should not be named", a bit like saying Candyman 3 times etc).

The "known" gods are all present to give a definitive answer on what exactly their name is, while a lost god isn't going to come forward to correct people (though may still draw power from their worship).

Quintus Antonius

15-09-2006, 21:27

Also, as you are implying, Goldfish, if his name is "Forgotten", who's to say exactly what people will call him.

Call me insane, but when I think of this "outcast god", I can't help but think Cthulu.

Shadowed Sun

15-09-2006, 21:46

I never knew there was going to be a new god...Hmm...
But if or if not this is him, we shall see :D
Interesting though, nice!

ss

Drec Sutal

15-09-2006, 22:32

My goodness....is it possible that is what the Mursaat-type effigies are portraying...? Not the Lich or the Mursaat, but rather this "Abaddon"?

This would suddenly make everything make more sense. Was the new God wiped from *all* civilization, or just human civ? Or did he have some limited power over the world, and reveal himself to the charr? Either way, this new God giving the charr the magic of the cataclysm would make perfect sense, and perhaps he somehow made the vizear stumble on more then one old scroll... one portraying the flameseeker prophesies as a way to come to power, and one that gave him an ancient spell from *deep* in the archives, perhaps scribed by the dark god himself... but not mentioning his name, just describing the magics taht would cause the cataclysm. Maybe the copy of the flameseeker the vizear read was flawed, deliberatly, to make it seem he would end ruling the world, while Glint seemed confident that us winning fulfilled it. After all, if he had belived the prophecies he would have known they ended with his death...

Quintus Antonius

15-09-2006, 22:38

Gmr Leon

15-09-2006, 23:07

The Door is sealed by the power of Soul Batteries that feed on the souls of the slain Chosen sacrificed on the Bloodstones by the Mursaat and their White Mantle cohorts.

Would that not mean the Lich was one of the Chosen? Since they had to sacrifice the Chosen on the Bloodstones to power the Soul Batteries..

Also,the Marga/onite enemies in Nightfall,they look similar the Mursaat. Is it at all possible that the effigies are of the Marganites?

zweistein

15-09-2006, 23:23

Well, we have to take into account that the Mursaat-type effigies appear after the Searing. Maybe more accurately, after the Cataclysm. Perhaps they start appearing to signify the return of this fallen god.

Interesting possiblity.

'Titan' effigy could symbolize Abaddons legs as seen on poster
'Mursaat' effigy could symbolize Abbadons torzo with his wing-like claws (?)

of maybe effigys are portrayal of abbadons servants, who are laso reflected on poster temple.

---

anyway, what about possibility that mursaat WERE the margonites?

Quintus Antonius

15-09-2006, 23:41

If the Mursaat were the Margonites, then they were a branch of the Margonites that didn't follow "Abaddon", because it is quite obvious the Mursaat are trying to keep whatever is behind the Door of Komalie safely behind the door.

Rae Fenrir

16-09-2006, 01:42

One of the screenshots on the pre order cd show a place with black tentacle things coming from the ground. Now where have I seen that before.... ;)

Ivan Drago

16-09-2006, 02:09

Yes, the black tentacles are identical to the tentacles in the Tombs of Primevil Kings.

I just wonder why there are so many pyramid-like structures with black tentacles in the mentioned screenshot.

Gmr Leon

16-09-2006, 02:21

...Could we get a pic up of the screenshot?

listen

16-09-2006, 07:43

dervish could be the class that worshipped the old god

from the 2nd pic tat the OP posted i quote: "with sharpened blades and practised spells"

remembered that somewhere in the nightfall promo said that Elona is a land of wealth and power, protected by its champions, the Order of the Sunspears.<-- which is the paragons which i presume is because of their iconic weapon sunspears.(there is also a pic on guildwars that showed paragons with wings)

dervish on the other hand are ruled by Princes of Vabbi in their opulent citadels. icy soulbreaker?

note the word Vabbi. from the post of the OP pdf Excerpt:
On that site hundreds of years ago, Turai(sunspear again)
defeated the undead lord Palawa Joko, the Scourge of Vabbi—an event that
brought the end of an era and the dawn of a new one.

But how did the paragons defeat the forgotten god and his followers? remember the ancient weapon in the desert that we couldn't find any use for it? thats the key.

listen

16-09-2006, 08:11

Chap 1. lets recap back to Orr:

destroyed by a "lost scroll' from a forbidden vault deep in the deserted city of Arah. Which was the city of the gods. the Orrians was deeply spiritual ppl.

So maybe the guy(vizar) was not supposed to read that scroll as it suppose to be forgotten and lost cause of its creator? The Gods wanted anything the 6th god to be lost n forgotten n to be forbidden.

chap 2: shrio.
he was marked by an ancient evil. but even finishing the game we do not have a clue wat that ancient evil is. but even more weird was why was he marked by the ancient evil? and look closely at the movie where after the jade wind the marking on the floor? then take a look at the dervish weapon that comes with the pre order. looks the same doesnt it.

could that be the mark that shows an alliance to the forgotten god?

listen

16-09-2006, 11:22

adding to my post above. the marking on the floor where shiro died in the movie the claw mark? turn it upside down and remove one claw 4th one from the right and it would look like the Icy Soulbreaker of Enchanting secondary blade at the base of the weapon is made in the design of "blades of the five gods". if it had a sixth god the secondary blade would have been called blades of the six gods?

kamekazis

16-09-2006, 11:36

Sounds like a fallen god to me. Cast down by the other gods.

And as in the quote from that image they await nightfall. Meaning the forces of chaos are most likely lead by this god from the mist. And we must stop him and his armys.

Dang takeing out a gods going to be hard work.

ShadowReapr

16-09-2006, 16:07

Abadhuum looks to be one hell of a badass.

Y'know, for one god-knows-why reason, I'm starting to think something:

Abadhuum may have been one of the First gods. Go with me on this - in Greek mythology, the Titans were some of the First gods around. Forgetting the Titanomachy (War of the Titans) for now, and skip to the tale of Prometheus. Life for all races was peaceful until one day, when Prometheus gave the gift of Fire to men. Zeus then punished Prometheus, because he could not take back the Fire Prometheus gave to man.

Zip over to the Guild Wars version. Bearing in mind that it would not be a direct translation:
Abadhuum gives Magic to the races of Tyria. This brings on war and suffering, something that hadn't happened before then. The Gods are pretty peeved, because before then everything had been going pretty well. Unable to revoke the "gifts" of Magic from Tyria, and unable themselves to actually banish Abadhuum, cue War of the Titans. Abadhuum having some kickass powers of his own, creates the Grasps, Darknesses and everything inbetween.

Unfortunately for him though, the 5 gods eventually win out. Menzies gets his butt kicked out of Balth's realm, Dhuum gets usurped, and presumably the foes of future Core Deity Realms get beat, one by one. Finally, he is banished behind the door of Komalie, and the Gods start their version of Windows Repair. They still can't get the Magic back, but they can banish all mentions of Abadhuums name from existance.

I still think maybe Balth and co were formed after Abadhuum was (see Scripture of Grenth, the end: "And thus, the first follower of Grenth" etc. In only 48AE). Possibly in a similar sense to Zeus and the post-Titans. Can't fit it in, though. But it kind of makes sense if we understand Menzies is the half-brother of Balth.

Now, after they get rid of all mentions of his name, our intrepid Gods still have the matter of all the Elementalist. Well, they think, being smart enough to not get into fights over Intellectual Property, they decide to split it evenly. Shockingly enough, it fits.

In conclusion, I am theorising that Abadhuum is actually the patron God of all Magic, and therefore Elementalists. I am also theorising that he was possibly a pre-Old Gods god. But the second theory there is no way to confirm it. The former - well, it just fits.

Benovolent Zephyr

16-09-2006, 16:27

The concept art picture confuses me very much every time I look it it. It looks to me like their entering the god or something like a temple or something. ShadowReapr I really like your theory, I would always wonder why the tablets would date the time when the god got his or her first warshipper. Though one thing that comes up is that I think that the banished god created grasps and insanities after he was gone. He might of been good before then after his downfall went into madness and these creatures are apart of him and apart of his chaos. Perhaps the heretics are warshipping his good side and do not know that once more that he has turned. That brings however, into conflict on why the people that warship him are sharpening blades and so forth though....then again sorrow and jealousy can do anything to anyone and call up vengence.

Quintus Antonius

16-09-2006, 16:32

Benovolent Zephyr

16-09-2006, 16:47

aaa the extra sylables they burn oh my precious material flesh it burns

mlandry

16-09-2006, 17:09

The way i see it, he's not really the 6th god but one who had the title of god before grenth came and took it from him, beating him and destroying his tower (like mentionned by the reaper). I guess since he technically is still a god, grenth couldn't kill him and he was sealed somewhere (door of komalie?, somewhere else we just don't know about) and now he's free so plans on coming back to do... something, probably kill grenth or something

so questions could be : is he linked to the grasps... what about the seers? ( someone mentionned they do look alike)... did the mursaat know about him and was the reason the lich wanted to unseal the door really to free him and not just the titans, or was it more that he had no idea he was there (if he even was there)

i guess its pretty much impossible to tell until we play nightfall heh

ert

16-09-2006, 18:36

Heh an outcast god. I can see it now:

Dwayna: 5/6 GLF one more for mission!
Outcast: Ooo ooh me ME!!!
(Outcast joins group)
Melandru: wat’s a dervish?
Balthazar: need 2monks plz
Grenth: kick him plz
Outcast: >=(
(kick)
Dwayna: 5/6 GLF second monk!

Poisoned Hunter

16-09-2006, 19:17

Don't know if you are right or wrong on that one, ShadowReapr, but I do have to say one thing, "Abadhuum" is such a catchy name. He's "Abaddon", he's Dhuum, he's Abadhuum! Better yet, throw Menzies in there, "Abadhuumenzies". That sounds cool.

I think Quintos is right, Abadhuum if we cut it in half it gets: Aba Dhuum, which we can make: Aba - Abandonned (He was after he was outcasted, because no one thought of him) Dhuum - Dhuum (The Abbandonned God .. or outcasted)

Heh an outcast god. I can see it now:

Dwayna: 5/6 GLF one more for mission!
Outcast: Ooo ooh me ME!!!
(Outcast joins group)
Melandru: wat’s a dervish?
Balthazar: need 2monks plz
Grenth: kick him plz
Outcast: >=(
(kick)
Dwayna: 5/6 GLF second monk!

You mean switch Balthazar with Grenth it makes sense, because Grenth outcasted Dhuum.

Raiala

16-09-2006, 19:34

Lol it seems like I would need to buy Nightfall just to find out more of Abadhuumenzies...
Well, I would buy it whitout it too, but one more good reason is not bad thing:tongue:

Zion Farbow

16-09-2006, 20:42

nice find and theories guys ^+^

tomezadas

16-09-2006, 21:03

After reading this thread i came up with a teory, that i'm going to explain here to you all with a diary!

Chapter 1 - The Kingdom of Orr

At the end of the night in Arah, a red sun stained by the blood of Orr, rose up high in the sky, though Orrians sacrificed themselves to stop the Charr's huge invasion, the Charr eventually, made to the gate, where the last defensenses waited for their enemies, but, at this very time, one man, Vizier Khilbron, a wise man, the king own advisor, the hero of Orr in its darkest times, went to the great Arah wall, and what he saw, weren't the usual beautiful, gold plains, because, those gold plains had been stained by blood, and what he saw, blood, pain, anguish, torture, changed him, once a very wise man, an hero of his people, now a mad person, seeking only death.
Vizier went down the stairs of the God's Palace in Arah, heading to the forbidden catacombs, guarded by 2 elite soldiers, but as a powerful mage he was, and maddened by his vision, Vizier just slayed the guards with his magics, powered by the very own Kingdom's scepter(now known as Scepter of Orr) he entered the catacombs, with a smile, denoting madness, picked up a forbidden scroll hid there by a defeated god many ages ago, the Vizier didn't mind of consequences, the Charr had to be stopped, as the Vizier read the words written in the scroll, a shower of pure darkness shover Arah, killing almost all, every single creature in a 100 miles radius!

Chapter 2 - The Underworld

Vizier awakes, he wanders a bit in the room, checking where is he, and a voice makes notice, a cold voice, Grenth himself had come to receive the Vizier, Grenth only says, one thing: QUOTE: Grenth: Your deeds brought nothing more than destruction to you and your people, reading the scrolls forbbiden by the Gods of the Old, has brought a punishment devised specially for you! QUOTE END!
The Vizier had been sent to the most remote place in The Underworld, when Vizier arrives he sees a body chained by light, the light of Dwayna, Vizier approaches the body, checking out if he is conscient or just a souless body, but as he approaches, the body says him to release him from the chains, Vizier a good man, helps the body, but, as the last bright chain was released, the body exploded in darkness, and when the darkness came down, a God shrouded in darkness, carrying a Bone Sword(now known as Dhuum's Sword)
that God was Dhuum, the one that wrote the scroll that destroyed Orr, now free to fight Grenth once more, but instead of heading to Grenth, Dhuum looked to the scared Vizier, and a dark idea came up in his twisted mind.
QUOTE: Dhuum: You, the one who saved my from my prision, I have a task for you, I shall grant you the powers to command the undead, powers beneath any necromancer has, and a passage to the living world, but my only wish is you to find a door in the Ring Of Fire to south of Kryta, that will bring me back in the living world, and then to my titan's army. END QUOTE

Chapter 3 - Living World - Kryta

With powers, behind comprehension, given by his new master the Vizier, started to terryfie the lands of Kryta, trying to recover his late Scepter of Orr, trough the power of his undead allies was strong, some unknown hero's from the late Kingdom of Ascalon, frustrated his tryies 3 times, so the Vizier changed his focus, he would conquer their trust, and induct them in his army, the Vizier started to help a group called "the Shining Blade" that fought against Kryta, but the Vizier still needed to make the Heroes join the group too, so he said that a member of the Shining Blade should lure the Heroes to Bloodstone Fen...................

The other pages of this diary were burnt in Hell's Precipie, during the fight against the Lich, now I know what brought the Lich to live again, and what really threatens this world, Grenth must be warned.

Sir André Tomé, from Ascalon

ShadowReapr

16-09-2006, 21:38

I'm not completely satisfied with associating Menzies with Abadhuum. While yes, he is definitively an outcast God, but on the other hand he's Balthy's half-brother. You think it might come up at family Sunday roast if Balth had locked up his brother for all eternity.

Oh yes. You've all got a mental image of him saying "But Mum, he's evil!" now, haven't you!

Quintus Antonius

16-09-2006, 21:46

Very fanfictionish... You have a career as a GW fan writer, I'm sure. However, I'm not sure how much of it is based in fact. We simply have no way of knowing what happened between when Orr explodes and the Lich resurfaces in Kryta with the Undead Army. It's hinted from teasers of the Nightfall storyline that the Vizier may have either come in contact with the forces at work in Nightfall, or was corrupted by them.

What I find curious is that the explosion that the Vizier set off was powerful enough to decimate and sink the whole peninsular system of Orr, yet somehow, the bodies of the soldiers and Vizier survive. This suggests to me there was a time between the reading of the scroll and the explosion in which whatever was in said scroll came out, displaced the Orrian forces, and then detonated the city. That's the only way the bodies could have survived, because the explosion was so big it blocked out the sun (according to the Manuscripts).

I'm not completely satisfied with associating Menzies with Abadhuum. While yes, he is definitively an outcast God, but on the other hand he's Balthy's half-brother. You think it might come up at family Sunday roast if Balth had locked up his brother for all eternity.

Oh yes. You've all got a mental image of him saying "But Mum, he's evil!" now, haven't you!

Well, the reason I associated Menzies with "Abaddon" and Dhuum (Abadhuum), is because Menzies is the "God of Destruction" and Abaddon means destruction. You can't deny the correlation, at least. Even if they are unrelated.

tomezadas

16-09-2006, 22:23

its just a teaory, and i think if ther are any evidences to be found they're at the desert, if not, we haven't any

Drec Sutal

16-09-2006, 23:08

Just a thought... if the vizear died in the cataclysm, would he have met an envoy? Could Shiro be that envoy? Or could they have run into the outcast god, or his realm of torment, on their journey through the mists, when he could corrupt them both?

If you havn't noticed, both our villans were dead at the start, and would have had to enter the mists (Shiro quite often, the lich at least once (I think))

SylverDragon

16-09-2006, 23:47

Some things that have sprung out at me from this thread and the information given from the pre-release pack.

From Ivan Drago's quote from the pre-release pack

But heretics speak of a sixth god...a fallen god. A thousand years ago, the spiritual ancestors of these heretics, the Margonites,and
Yet, despite the awesome power granted by horrific transformations, their army was annihilated; their false god exiled to a realm
of torment.
I don't think any Margonites survived from the conflict 1000 years ago. The quote says the Margonites of a thousand years ago were the spiritual ancestors of the present heretics, and that their army was annihilated. I think the name Margonite means 'followers of ...', a name for the worshippers/followers of the sixth god, which would apply to any followers of that god. There is no evidence that the original Margonites are related to the present Margonites.

There is also no mention of when the undead lord, Palawa Joko became undead. I wonder if Palawa Joko was a Margonite leader during the conflict 1000 years ago, and that he rose as an undead after the devestation of the area now know as the Crystal Desert, in a very similar, if not the same, way as the Vizier became undead after the destruction of Orr.

So in a minor alteration to Zaxares timeline (http://forums.gwonline.net/showpost.php?p=4381080&postcount=45), I wonder if the undead lord Palawa Joko roamed the area of the Crystal desert for 800 years, until Turai Ossa defeated him.

Also, if the original Margonites were known as Margonites before they arrived in the area now known as the Crystal desert, is it possible that they were trying to ascend to reach the outcast god?
or is the tale of their attempts to ascend just more propoganda created by the five gods to cover up a conflict with worshippers of the sixth god?

Minionman

17-09-2006, 00:54

or is the tale of their attempts to ascend just more propoganda created by the five gods to cover up a conflict with worshippers of the sixth god?

This just seems like a contradiction/change to the story, though putting a merged backstory together is fun to do. :)

As for ascension, there's a big problem in the timeline, where glint predicted the flameseeker prophecies "800 years ago", yet margonites would have been before that, so a change to propaganda could make sense to merge the two storylines.

Tuor Son Of Huor

17-09-2006, 01:17

In the other thread with the lore from the prerelease cd; it was mentioned that Turai Ossa as enamoured of "ascension" and specifically learned about it from the FLAMESEEKER PROPHECIES.

I'm too tired to make something of it now; but it is a bit of information we MUST take into account

Quintus Antonius

17-09-2006, 01:24

You have to hand it to ANet, on an unrelated note. By making the fallen god "forgotten and banished" and then having him come back, they can effectively fill or change any plot holes in the prior two chapters.

Zexion

17-09-2006, 01:40

One thing about this topic which annoys me:
Stop assuming he is friggin Dhuum! Until otherwise confirmed, his name is the Outcast God, or any variations thereof!!!

Like KH2 fans. Keeps assuming the knights in the secret video is called Chasers, just because the name appears in the video (and not even while they are on the screen!).
Until they are confirmed as being Chasers, they should stop using that name!

_Zexion

Xavatar

17-09-2006, 06:46

perhaps its also linked to the great destroyer, arch-villian of the great dwarf? the quest about 'unspeakable, unknowable' seems too coincidental with this

KaliMagdalene

17-09-2006, 08:22

Except the fact that he's a God you mean?

So's Lord Recluse, sort of.

One thing about this topic which annoys me:
Stop assuming he is friggin Dhuum! Until otherwise confirmed, his name is the Outcast God, or any variations thereof!!!

Like KH2 fans. Keeps assuming the knights in the secret video is called Chasers, just because the name appears in the video (and not even while they are on the screen!).
Until they are confirmed as being Chasers, they should stop using that name!

No one's assuming. They're theorizing. Calm down.

scars of insanity

17-09-2006, 10:20

so near the release of factions the tomb of premivial kings or w/e suddenly had those black tentacles come out of the ground and a portal to the underworld level of the Hoh maps. at this point alot of the players had completed the titan quests. he was probably released after the door of komali was opened and just hiding in the shadows controlling the titans. then after the defeat of them he attacks and trys to take the hall of heroes with another army. only to be defeated again and he goes back into hiding until nightfall when mabye hell get a new army.

/drunken theory :smiley:

tomezadas

17-09-2006, 12:58

of the theory i have wrriten we all know that Chapters 1 and 3 are in fact based in the truth, so our awnser might be in Chapter 2 The Underworld, Vizier might have found something there, watch this carefully, The Vizier was a noble man the advisor to the king of Orr!(Before) - The Vizier wants to conquer Tyria!(after UW), ain't that a bit much of a diference?

Quintus Antonius

17-09-2006, 14:57

Shiro was a more or less honorable warrior before, killed the Emperor, now wants to corrupt the souls of the innocent and regain his mortality. If both the Vizier and Shiro were landed in the Realm of Torment for their "sins" (so to say), then the maddening nature of the Realm is more or less confirmed. Someone once theorized that Shiro was driven insane. It appears he was right.

sir ireland

17-09-2006, 17:56

What i found quite interesting was that on the back of the pre-release bonus pack case it says.Brought forth by an evil ruler and her exiled god.So apperantley the evil lord is a she.

Santax

17-09-2006, 19:01

What i found quite interesting was that on the back of the pre-release bonus pack case it says.Brought forth by an evil ruler and her exiled god.So apperantley the evil lord is a she.
And "she" may not be all that evil.

A post mentioned somewhere Warmarshal Varesh... she is a direct descendant of Turai Ossa, and according to this post just as fascinated with Ascension as he was. Maybe it's just random speculation, or maybe she, like her ancestor Warmarshal Ossa, will be overzealous in her quest to ascend and bring ruin to her people...

Quintus Antonius

17-09-2006, 20:34

Where did you hear that those two are the same people? There can't be more than one female leader?

Ivan Drago

17-09-2006, 21:12

There is also a female with a Scythe and the name "Morgahn". You can see her talking to a Sunspear (???) on various pics.

She might be a nice and friendly Dervish though. I just got the impression she is evil because of the name, it sounds a bit like "Morgana" or "Morrigan".

EDIT: Forget it!

Morgahn is the guy, and the lady is... no clue

Just got this list of heroes from a german forum:

Koss: Male, Sunspear. Despite being a Sunspear not necessarily a Paragon, he seems to be a Warrior. The Sunspears have members of all professions.
Melonni: Enemy of Kourna, possibly a female
Dunkoro: Old Man, Advisor of the Sunspears
Acolyte Jin: Young female, member of the Zaishen Order
Acolyte Sousake: Male elementalist of the Zaishen Order
Master of Whispers: elderly male, rumored to be Ritualist or Elementalist
Zhed Shadowhoof: Male Centaur
Tahlkora: Female Refugee
Margrid the Shrewd: Male (unsure) warrior
Norgu: I think there was an translation error, seems to be a Male Mesmer
Goren: Male Protector/Bodyguard
Morgahn: General of Kourna, male

Santax

17-09-2006, 21:23

Where did you hear that those two are the same people? There can't be more than one female leader?
I don't think I was too clear with that... it was speculation, as I said (perhaps quite badly), but quite an interesting concept, don't you think?

logik

17-09-2006, 21:58

well if Shiro, Vizier and the Outcast God are all in fact connected, then i think it would be awesome if in the last mission in Nightfall u would have to fight all 3, like when we had to kill Rurick to get to Vizier in the first. That would be just totaly cool.

Psychotic

17-09-2006, 22:26

i wouldn't expect a mission like that, logik, until they don't plan on making any more guild wars games.

Quintus Antonius

17-09-2006, 22:34

I don't think I was too clear with that... it was speculation, as I said (perhaps quite badly), but quite an interesting concept, don't you think?

Well, I thought that you may have had a source that I didn't know about. If that was the case, I wanted to know to see if we could milk any other information out.

Gmr Leon

17-09-2006, 23:02

Zhed Shadowhoof: Male Centaur

We're actually going to meet another friendly centaur? Also,why the mention of male,it's not like we've seen any female centaurs around..

My Sweet Revenga

17-09-2006, 23:07

Oh thank god. Here I thought you were gonna say chuck norris...

Durza the Shadeking

18-09-2006, 06:53

Perhaps, in Nightfall, we will see more of the Centuar Cilvilization, an thus female centuars.

Ivan Drago

18-09-2006, 13:01

Some more pics:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2175/badlandsbonepalace1zq3.th.jpg (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=badlandsbonepalace1zq3.jpg)

Badlands Bone Palace - reminds me of the Tombs

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/926/margonitemesmerwh4.th.jpg (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=margonitemesmerwh4.jpg)

Margonite Mesmer

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2682/margoniteparagonye6.th.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=margoniteparagonye6.jpg)

Margonite Paragon (Vizier) - why is there a "Vizier" in brackets?

Also note, both have 6 eyes, like Abaddon.jpg has 6 red eyeslits. Interesting: Oni have a similar face with 6 eyes as well.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/341/nightfallconceptart1024x768in2.th.jpg (http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nightfallconceptart1024x768in2.jpg)

Realm of Torment Concept Art.

Sir Jack

18-09-2006, 13:07

/snip
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2682/margoniteparagonye6.th.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=margoniteparagonye6.jpg)

Margonite Paragon (Vizier) - why is there a "Vizier" in brackets?
/snip

I'm guessing it could be 2 things:
- They plan on calling a Margonite Paragon a Margonite Vizier
- The model is planned to use the Vizier/Lich model of animations (like the Stone Guardians in Echovald)

Quintus Antonius

18-09-2006, 14:31

Well, remember, "vizier" is a title, not a name.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
vi‧zier /vɪˈzɪər, ˈvɪzyər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vi-zeer, viz-yer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun (formerly) a high official in certain Muslim countries and caliphates, esp. a minister of state. Compare grand vizier.

Also, vi‧zir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1555–65; < Turk vezīr < Ar wazīr]

—Related forms
vi‧zier‧ate /vɪˈzɪərɪt, -eɪt, ˈvɪzyərɪt, -yəˌreɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vi-zeer-it, -eyt, viz-yer-it, -yuh-reyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, vi‧zier‧ship, noun
vi‧zier‧i‧al, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

So, the paragon (which are said to be the leaders of armies anyway) may function in the same capacity as a vizier. It fits with the cultural model of Elona at any rate.

****

Looking at those concept arts, I can't help but think they look like the Mursaat, or at least, have armor in the same style. However, it almost looks like they are "anti-Mursaat", or made in the opposite image of the Mursaat. Remember, many Mursaat armors and symbols bear the Eye of Janthir marking. Many "Margonite" units bear the six-eyed symbol of "Abaddon".

Sir Jack

18-09-2006, 15:58

Looking at those concept arts, I can't help but think they look like the Mursaat, or at least, have armor in the same style. However, it almost looks like they are "anti-Mursaat", or made in the opposite image of the Mursaat. Remember, many Mursaat armors and symbols bear the Eye of Janthir marking. Many "Margonite" units bear the six-eyed symbol of "Abaddon".

Small theory:
Mursaat are originally a group of Margonite, but follow the Pantheon of 5 Gods. Other Margonites follow the 6th God. When they went to Ascend, they had a small civil war, in which the Mursaat won and sent the Margonites back, then ascended. As a "reward", the Gods let them guard the Door of Komalie, which held back the Titans and possibly the 6th God.
The driven back Margonites then tried to ascend again, but failed in the process, and grew to what we see now.
It might explain why there are Mursaat armors all over the Crystal Desert, in the form of Forgotten Warriors/Rangers...

itamargwonline

18-09-2006, 16:21

Akirai Annuvil

18-09-2006, 16:27

Am I the only one who notices how often the word 'eye' pokes up when talking about Abbadhuum? They seem to be important as they're integrated into the landscape just look at the Realm of Torment artwork.

Anyways it could also be that 'a/the' Vizier is leading certain Margonites. He was reborn once why wouldn't he be again?
Plus if the old god resurrected him in the first place then most definately he would resurrect him again, especially after he open the Door of Komalie and has valuable insight into their foe.

Personally I'm wondering though, if Abbadhuum was resurrected by releasing the Door of Komalie, then you should only be able to travel to the new continent after opening the Door. But that's so late in the game that I'd doubt ANet would implement that. Especially since they've already said that you can travel there by boat (if I remember correctly it was in one of the Scribe's scrolls), so it would probably be unlocked after reaching Kryta.

Of course they're not very consistent anyways since when you meet Mhenlo in Cantha he's level 20, when you re-acquint yourself in Kryta he's level 13.

Ivan Drago

18-09-2006, 16:35

6th god, thus 6 eyes for his followers? :)

I hope there are some clues in the island province of Istan already. Otherwise we will not have to wait till Friday, but till October 27th.

Quintus Antonius

18-09-2006, 17:21

Small theory:
Mursaat are originally a group of Margonite, but follow the Pantheon of 5 Gods. Other Margonites follow the 6th God. When they went to Ascend, they had a small civil war, in which the Mursaat won and sent the Margonites back, then ascended. As a "reward", the Gods let them guard the Door of Komalie, which held back the Titans and possibly the 6th God.
The driven back Margonites then tried to ascend again, but failed in the process, and grew to what we see now.
It might explain why there are Mursaat armors all over the Crystal Desert, in the form of Forgotten Warriors/Rangers...

I thought something similar, only I'm beginning to think that the Mursaat guard the Door, not because the Old Gods said so, but because they knew and have fought against, what was behind it in the past. Either way, something caused the Mursaat to turn from the Old Gods, and it looks more and more like I was right about it in my "Odran Code" paper.

Sir Jack

18-09-2006, 17:41

6th god, thus 6 eyes for his followers? :)

I hope there are some clues in the island province of Istan already. Otherwise we will not have to wait till Friday, but till October 27th.

The 6th eye...the eye of Jahntir?

http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=grenthtempleuwdaiscloseup5sm.jpg
(found in one of the Mursaat threads)

This is their symbol. Why does it look to me as an Eye with tentacles?
And we know the 6th god apparently uses tentacles when we look at Tombs and Nightfall pics.

http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eye25wg.jpg
(from the same thread)

Counting eyes:
5 Eyes of Jahntir
1 Tentacle eye

Could it be the Jungle Temple was originally for the 6th God (and possibly Grenth's Temple in the Shiverpeaks), but remade by the gods? Seems also weird this symbol is in the Zaishen temple to Heroes Ascent. It was originally thought to be the symbol of the Mursaat, but if the Mursaat never been on the Zaishen islands, or in Tyria (safe from when they started killing Chosen ones to save themselves, they wouldn't actually have been in Tyria safe from the Crystal desert if they are infact Margonite descendants)

Either way, I'm stocking up on Monstrous Eyes <.<

Quintus Antonius

18-09-2006, 17:49

Why are the Mursaat trying to keep "Abaddon" in if he is their "god". No, I don't think so, the Mursaat worship themselves, and nothing higher, not anymore anyway. There is one Eye of Janthir, and only one, not 5, not 6. And if the theories on Lord Odran are correct, the Mursaat have been everywhere, because Odran used his portals to get to remote areas both on and off Tyria, and then hid said portals in remote areas. I truly do not believe there is a spiritual connection between the Mursaat and any of the gods.

Santax

18-09-2006, 17:50

The 6th eye...the eye of Jahntir?

http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=grenthtempleuwdaiscloseup5sm.jpg
(found in one of the Mursaat threads)

This is their symbol. Why does it look to me as an Eye with tentacles?
And we know the 6th god apparently uses tentacles when we look at Tombs and Nightfall pics.

http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eye25wg.jpg
(from the same thread)

Counting eyes:
5 Eyes of Jahntir
1 Tentacle eye

Could it be the Jungle Temple was originally for the 6th God (and possibly Grenth's Temple in the Shiverpeaks), but remade by the gods? Seems also weird this symbol is in the Zaishen temple to Heroes Ascent. It was originally thought to be the symbol of the Mursaat, but if the Mursaat never been on the Zaishen islands, or in Tyria (safe from when they started killing Chosen ones to save themselves, they wouldn't actually have been in Tyria safe from the Crystal desert if they are infact Margonite descendants)

Either way, I'm stocking up on Monstrous Eyes <.<
Do these predate Grenth exiling Dhuum from The Underworld?

teh Monkeys

18-09-2006, 18:46

Why are the Mursaat trying to keep "Abaddon" in if he is their "god".

1: Titans destroy.
2: Abbadon destroys.
3: ????
4: PROFIT!

Aside from the above, we don't have the slightest indication that Abbadon is connected to the Door of Komali or the titans in any way whatsoever.

Giggles

18-09-2006, 18:58

A little OT but I wonder if this might be used in Nightfall at all and possibly be related to the unseen/unknown bad guy. In the Factions manuscripts, then mention that the luxons believe that there are three demigodesses besides the 5 known gods, Alua, Elora and Ione.

Santax

18-09-2006, 19:00

1: Titans destroy.
2: Abbadon destroys.
3: ????
4: PROFIT!

Aside from the above, we don't have the slightest indication that Abbadon is connected to the Door of Komali or the titans in any way whatsoever.
Except for the fact that the volcano is called Abbadon's Mouth, the fact that it's rumoured to be the Gateway to the Underworld, that according to the world map the Fissure of Woe runs underneath it.

Ranger Nietzsche

18-09-2006, 19:36

Quintus Antonius

18-09-2006, 22:45

Actually the rules of logic tell us there is a strong possibility of connection.

If "p" implies "r" and "q" implies "r", then "p" implies "q".

So using that logical model, if Abaddon's Mouth is associated with the Titans and the Door of Komalie, and Abaddon is associated with Abaddon's Mouth, than Abaddon is also associated with the Titans and the Door of Komalie.

Goldfish God

18-09-2006, 22:59

6 may be a bit more significant than normal, 6 might be some sorta magical number that governs the universe. 6 gods, 6 eyes, 6 limbs (2 arm pairs + 1 leg pair on seers, magonites, 2 leg pairs + 1 arm pair on burning titans).

Santax

19-09-2006, 16:48

how exactly do teh Underworld and FoW fit into a TItan and Abbadon connection?

i mean if you want to make abbadon-UW or abbadon-FoW connectinos do so but that doesnt really mean there is an abbadon titan connection.
As I said, the volcano and location of the keystone is Abbadon's Mouth. Hell's Precipice is actually just the switchback route along the volcano.

Ranger Nietzsche

19-09-2006, 18:24

I was more wondering why you were brining UW and FoW references into your attempt to prove a Abbaddon - Titan connection.

Like the piece of information "Fow is in the ring of fire" seems irrelevant to prove that Abbaddon and the Titans are connected.

maleki

20-09-2006, 09:33

I think everyone is focusing 2 much on the fact that it "may" be connected to the ring of fire...if it is in fact that..I do think that there might be a big connection between the great dwarf and this guy...considering you do a quest about a nameless guy that was stricken from history.

tomezadas

20-09-2006, 15:56

we will only know for sure when nightfall comes out, till then its only maybe's and suppositions!

gnome gnome

21-09-2006, 17:38

what i find wierd is that, everyone blindly presumse the mursaat are there to stop whatever is in komaile getting out,when so muck of there defense are disinged to stop people geting in.
this is how i see it- the mursaat follow abaddon he helps them become so mighty then the god rip away all of his power.
with the help of the mursaat abaddon uses the last of his power to create the door of komalie, keeping himsafe whle scarifice on the door or the bloodstones conected to it help he to regain his power.
when the door is opened the most devout margonite soul who were locked in with him break out consume the soul of the mursaat and become titans forcing use to reclose the door to pervent our desturction, while still alowing abaddon to recopperate strenght. meanwhile the titan who we realased begin to prepare the world for the lords coming.
the charr also worship him, so he gives them some of his power to help them in there invasion sparking the cataclasm, creating the lich and destory the last true bastion of the 5gods power on the planet-forcing them to become obveres to his dark and maliglant return
not sure how althis ties in with factions though

Quintus Antonius

21-09-2006, 18:42

Ah so I guess the Mursaat must have been helping the Titans, oh wait...

gnome gnome

21-09-2006, 19:12

did you even read all of what i just typed the mursaat only knew that they were defending the god and that some of them had been take to form a second layer of defence. they didn't known about the titans! noone knew about the titans. only the lich and abaddon their creator knew of their existance

Orrik

21-09-2006, 19:32

*cough*overthought*cough*

Ashberry

21-09-2006, 20:28

Quintus Antonius

21-09-2006, 22:05

Consider Fort Knox, it's not built to keep the gold from escaping, it's built to prevent people from getting in.

The Mursaat knew, because of the Flameseeker Prophecies, that people would be coming to open the Door. Remember the Litanies of the Unseen, they speak of doors that are locked remaining locked.

tomezadas

21-09-2006, 23:43

zeeZer

23-09-2006, 04:43

The mysterious sixth god now has a name.

The winner is....
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/461/theanswermb6.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theanswermb6.jpg)

Quintus Antonius

23-09-2006, 05:02

We know there are more than six gods, even without Abaddon (if that is his real name, I still think ANet has some surprises up their sleeve on this one). That means there are at least 8 gods, including Abaddon, assuming Abaddon, Menzies, and Dhuum don't turn out to be the same or analogous.

Seyfert

23-09-2006, 05:18

I think Abaddon is simply a code name, it would be really cheesy in future chapters seeing "we worship the 5 gods, heretic the 6th but a new threat comes bearing the crest of yet anouther 7th god this was banished from his throne while... err on vacation, now the world trembles at his return duh duh duh!"

and then an 8th? oh man

NeferJackal

23-09-2006, 05:20

Major spoiler!!!
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I just finished the second mission in Nightfall, the 6th god is indeed called Abaddon. More info in the Corrupt Ruler Thread.

Laibeus Lord

23-09-2006, 12:21

Try to find some "Abaddon" influences in Cantha ;)

Quintus Antonius

23-09-2006, 16:18

Shiro.....

Avoc

23-09-2006, 17:13

CMEPTb

23-09-2006, 17:23

Yep... Apparantly the Varmarshal is waking Abbadon up. Just finished the final preview mission. And I can tell you, that if you try to do the bonus in the final mission, you will be overwhelmed by how many small hidden details are around.

The entire third mission is in a swamp like area. It reminded me alot of the tyrian swamp based missions.

Does this mean that there are missions that are not timed, but have actual story-like bonuses :huh: :grin: ? I have not played that far, and do not really have that much time this weekend :(.

As far as Abbandon influence in Cantha. I would also say Shiro. All that dark power of his couldn't have come from himself. As far as environmental changes, there was that visit/taste from Abbandons servents at the Dragon Festival. As far as any permanant environmental add-ons, I did not see any myself. Could there be any in the place that Shiro traps you in when you try to kill him? Or have there been anything like black tendrils showing up in the Faction Elite missions? I have not seen any, but maybe someone else saw something?

There is a lot of information comin to us at the beginning, which is great :grin: , but I feel it is only stearing us to some plot twists in the future.

Quintus Antonius

23-09-2006, 17:34

MadCatvanHelsing

23-09-2006, 17:49

Avoc

23-09-2006, 18:24

Does this mean that there are missions that are not timed, but have actual story-like bonuses :huh: :grin: ? I have not played that far, and do not really have that much time this weekend :(.

TO be honest, I dont know if the bonus was timed or not. But you had to kill 5 monitors in order to get the bonus. YOu had to walk off the beaten path in order to do so, and the amount of detail in the environment and the half-sunken tombs/temples ... the small deserted camps, swamp boats. Amazing!

CMEPTb

23-09-2006, 19:56

Remember the Factions pre-game cinema? Shiro very clearly kneels and becomes infused with power before going crazy and killing all the guards and the like. He was obviously possessed by an otherworldly power.

Thanks for reminding me! I totally forgot about that movie.

TO be honest, I dont know if the bonus was timed or not. But you had to kill 5 monitors in order to get the bonus. YOu had to walk off the beaten path in order to do so, and the amount of detail in the environment and the half-sunken tombs/temples ... the small deserted camps, swamp boats. Amazing!

Look forward to doing that bonus! :D

halfthought

23-09-2006, 20:17

ok, my turn to speculate:

Mursaat vs. Seers vs. Margonites.

First they where all the same, then they splite into Mursaat and Seers
Mursaat for the first 5 gods, Seers for the 6th (gold-white for the "nice" gods, black for the 6th).
they went fighting, Seers where losing, they they got that "transformation" thingy on and became Margonites.

because i cant remember when that war between seers and Mursaat was going on.

ps. i'm sorry if i repeat what someone else has said

I think its the maragonites the ones i (if any acended) became the seers, not the other way around, the maragonite look like decayed humans, but seers dont, so unless a seer once acended, becomes human like, its probably the other way around

Quintus Antonius

23-09-2006, 20:38

People have proposed that the Seers and the Mursaat are derivative of the same race. I don't fully agree with this, but I think it is plausible. However, if this is the case, I believe it is not because the Mursaat worshipped the original gods (as my research has shown, they did, and now don't), but because they saw the dangerous power of Abaddon and fought a war to contain it.

I still hold to the theory that Lord Odran is a Mursaat. If this is the case, then it is likely that when he went to seek audience with the gods, as the Euro Manuscripts say, he was going to ask that Abaddon be contained, or at least, his newly emerging power be contained. Odran entered the Rift around the same time Shiro set off his deathwail in Cantha, and Turai Ossa engaged the Undead Lord in the Crystal Desert. I don't think these events happened symotaneously by coincidence. How they may be tied together, I do not know, but I personal think the evidence points to a first attempt at "nightfall" 200 years ago, which was thwarded by the combined, but unrelated events of Ossa beating the first Lich, Shiro being struck down by the Archemoreous, Viktor, and Vizu, and Odran entering the Rift ending with the rise of the Mursaat guarding the Door of Komalie. These three things, though not planned together, helped thwart Abaddon the first time. Now, however, thanks to Glint and the Seers, the Mursaat are more or less out of the picture, the Luxons and Kurzicks are too prejudice to stand with each other for long, the Rift is in a state of chaos, and of the three human kingdoms on the continent of Tyria, Ascalon and Orr are gone, and Kryta is in a state of chaos due to the Mursaat defeat. All that is really standing between Abaddon and Nightfall are the Sunspears and the Zaishen, exactly as the NPE is telling us.

Gmr Leon

23-09-2006, 23:40

Now that you sum it all up Quintus it really does tie together, but why Glint would want to leave Tyria in a state of chaos is really...interesting. She may not have meant for it to happen, she may not have known how much influence the White Mantle had, but I think we're forgetting one other civilization..

The Deldrimor Dwarves, when we left the Shiverpeaks we had killed the Stone Summit leader Dagnar Stonesplitter and crushed at least a fairly decent portion of their army. We also most likely brought down their morale alot and we stopped quite a few plots of theirs in Sorrow's Furnace. While I doubt we'll see them come out of their mountains I just felt like the Dwarves were being left out of the picture.

Drec Sutal

24-09-2006, 00:45

Spoilers

Bigger Picture!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/drec/Spoiler.jpg

You also fight lesser grasp type things coming from a rift (same as dragon festival). The rest of Elona is going to go into a civil war (just as we leave the island of course) to oppose the supporters of abaddon.

People have proposed that the Seers and the Mursaat are derivative of the same race. I don't fully agree with this, but I think it is plausible. However, if this is the case, I believe it is not because the Mursaat worshipped the original gods (as my research has shown, they did, and now don't), but because they saw the dangerous power of Abaddon and fought a war to contain it.

I still hold to the theory that Lord Odran is a Mursaat. If this is the case, then it is likely that when he went to seek audience with the gods, as the Euro Manuscripts say, he was going to ask that Abaddon be contained, or at least, his newly emerging power be contained. Odran entered the Rift around the same time Shiro set off his deathwail in Cantha, and Turai Ossa engaged the Undead Lord in the Crystal Desert. I don't think these events happened symotaneously by coincidence. How they may be tied together, I do not know, but I personal think the evidence points to a first attempt at "nightfall" 200 years ago, which was thwarded by the combined, but unrelated events of Ossa beating the first Lich, Shiro being struck down by the Archemoreous, Viktor, and Vizu, and Odran entering the Rift ending with the rise of the Mursaat guarding the Door of Komalie. These three things, though not planned together, helped thwart Abaddon the first time. Now, however, thanks to Glint and the Seers, the Mursaat are more or less out of the picture, the Luxons and Kurzicks are too prejudice to stand with each other for long, the Rift is in a state of chaos, and of the three human kingdoms on the continent of Tyria, Ascalon and Orr are gone, and Kryta is in a state of chaos due to the Mursaat defeat. All that is really standing between Abaddon and Nightfall are the Sunspears and the Zaishen, exactly as the NPE is telling us.

If this is true, things seem to be rather going our way and Abaddon is going to need a miracle. Ascalon is coming back after the titan quests (yes, under debate, but still...) There is an effort to get the krytan royal family back in power and it may well work now that the white mantle's Gods are dead or gone. Shiro failed and at the same time luxons and kurzicks pulled together, proving that if needed they can do it again (and probably easier). And now in Elona, 2/3 of Elona is going to fight 1/3. Our side has complete naval superiority, and the support of the zaishun order from cantha and anything tyria can throw at them. We also are lead by the sunspears, who were behind a big part of the last defeat of Abaddon.

Xunlai Agent

24-09-2006, 00:59

So these are the evil Gods:

Abbadon, the evil, exiled god who the plot of Guild Wars Nightfall revolves around.
Dhuum, the former god of death who was defeated and cast down by Grenth of the Old Gods.
Menzies, an evil being and a half-brother of Balthazar.
The Great Destroyer, a evil being that is the nemesis of the Great Dwarf
Could all of these be one and the same or are they all different entities?

EDIT: Quintus mentioned this on Page 1 but I was too lazy to scroll down and read that post! :rolleyes:

Seyfert

24-09-2006, 02:09

I could be wrong but isn't it believed that the Great Destroyer is Menzies?

Laibeus Lord

24-09-2006, 03:44

Remember the Factions pre-game cinema? Shiro very clearly kneels and becomes infused with power before going crazy and killing all the guards and the like. He was obviously possessed by an otherworldly power.

Exactly! What I've been telling since preview of Factions, but everybody dispelled the video as "a teaser only and has nothing to do with the game, since the game says otherwise".

Finally, someone's starting to see how connected and clueful that early Factions trailer.

People have proposed that the Seers and the Mursaat are derivative of the same race. I don't fully agree with this, but I think it is plausible. However, if this is the case, I believe it is not because the Mursaat worshipped the original gods (as my research has shown, they did, and now don't), but because they saw the dangerous power of Abaddon and fought a war to contain it.

I still hold to the theory that Lord Odran is a Mursaat. If this is the case, then it is likely that when he went to seek audience with the gods, as the Euro Manuscripts say, he was going to ask that Abaddon be contained, or at least, his newly emerging power be contained. Odran entered the Rift around the same time Shiro set off his deathwail in Cantha, and Turai Ossa engaged the Undead Lord in the Crystal Desert. I don't think these events happened symotaneously by coincidence. How they may be tied together, I do not know, but I personal think the evidence points to a first attempt at "nightfall" 200 years ago, which was thwarded by the combined, but unrelated events of Ossa beating the first Lich, Shiro being struck down by the Archemoreous, Viktor, and Vizu, and Odran entering the Rift ending with the rise of the Mursaat guarding the Door of Komalie. These three things, though not planned together, helped thwart Abaddon the first time. Now, however, thanks to Glint and the Seers, the Mursaat are more or less out of the picture, the Luxons and Kurzicks are too prejudice to stand with each other for long, the Rift is in a state of chaos, and of the three human kingdoms on the continent of Tyria, Ascalon and Orr are gone, and Kryta is in a state of chaos due to the Mursaat defeat. All that is really standing between Abaddon and Nightfall are the Sunspears and the Zaishen, exactly as the NPE is telling us.

I completely agree. All the events "200 years ago" were not "planned" together but are related if you look at it in the global perspective. Odran may very well be afraid that the knowledge he learned, including the opening of portals may be used by Abaddon for his self-ambitions - which is happening now. So Lord Odran escaped the "Planet Tyria" to learn of what other ways to bind Abaddon forever. But as we all know, Odran was killed.

I want to point however.. Abaddon was already imprisoned by the time of Lord Odran as it was also the time when Shiro was possessed and killed. As we know by Factions, Abaddon is experimenting with 'possessing' mortal beings and bringing a spiritual being into the mortal realm (or back from the dead - depending on how you look at it).

I strongly agree that Glint and the Seers are Abaddon's allies if not worshippers. And the Mursaats are actually the good guys. The "Prophecies", there's a duality in it. The complete real name might be "The Prophecies of Nightfall (and the Division of Tyria into Factions)"

or maybe simple, they called them as "Prophecies" and the prophecies are:
1) The Destruction of the Kingdom of Ascalon (ie Ascalon, Kryta, Shiverspeak)
2) The division of the ancient humans into Factions (hyphothesis, the Kurzicks and Luxons might very well be one of the races that helped to imprison Abaddon or who fought him eons ago...)
3) The Prophecy of Nightfall.

3 Prophecies = "Prophecies".

If this is true, things seem to be rather going our way and Abaddon is going to need a miracle. Ascalon is coming back after the titan quests (yes, under debate, but still...) There is an effort to get the krytan royal family back in power and it may well work now that the white mantle's Gods are dead or gone. Shiro failed and at the same time luxons and kurzicks pulled together, proving that if needed they can do it again (and probably easier). And now in Elona, 2/3 of Elona is going to fight 1/3. Our side has complete naval superiority, and the support of the zaishun order from cantha and anything tyria can throw at them. We also are lead by the sunspears, who were behind a big part of the last defeat of Abaddon.

Not actually.
1) We lost in Tyria, or should I say, we defeated the Whilte Mantle gods who are actually working "against" Abaddon. In other words, we did exactly what Abaddon wants us to do :p (The White Mantle gods are the Mursaats, its confirmed, they're not dead or gone.)
2) Shiro - if you look at the events, we look like we won in Factions BUT, it is boggling me what the other guardians meant by "we have something planned for Shiro... you don't need to know." As it appears to me at least, once again, we thwarted the very people who's trying to help us!! Shiro might have fought to return to life to "warn us" about Abaddo