*SPOILER* Evil Ruler?

[Santax]

From the cutscene in the Jokanur Diggings quest, I can't remember the exact words but here's as close as I can get:

Morgahn: The Sunspears have increased their forces.
Varesh: Then so must we.
Morgahn: The Sunspears protect all of Elona, Warmarshal.
Varesh: Then why is it that their headquarters are in Istan, and not Kourna?
Morgahn: Your father taught me to trust the Sunspears.
Varesh: My father taught me how to rule the Kingdom!
Kehyet: (enter, holding scroll) Warmarshal, preperations for our return to Kourna are finalised.
Varesh: General Kehyet! Morgahn, you are dismissed.
Morgahn: We are not finished here. (leave)
Kehyet: The Sunspears have destroyed the Apocrypha, but not before I got what we needed.
Varesh: Excellent, my teacher. Nightfall is at hand. Praise Abbadon!
Kehyet: Praise Abbadon! *fade out*

All this time, there is someone behind a pillar to the right of them eavesdropping. I think this is very compelling evidence that Varesh Ossa is the corrupt ruler.

[Shazard]

I agree.

However what I wondering is will you actually fight this evil god, or just an avatar elite. Since Varesh herself look alots like a Dervish.

And I think this is enought of an evident to say the new god is Abbadon.

I want to know how is this Abbadon relate to either Dhum or Menzie. Or how Faction even tie into this..

[requinox]

And I think this is enought of an evident to say the new god is Abbadon.


There should be no more questioning. They explicitly mention this once you get further along the primary quest chain. (Unless there's an unforseen plot twist in the works...)

[Benovolent Zephyr]

I want unforseen plot twists

Anyways I do hope that we get to acctually fight Abbadon, not some darn avatar. Fighting Abbadon can be a challenge since he is a god so perhaps, just a guess or more a hope, that we will be doing things like sloving puzzles to seal him away while being attacked by him who we cannot damage...

[mrmango]

Yeah, like fighting him in forms (Zelda - Puppet gannon style) such as the Apothe-w/e boss.

[Tharkun Greyhame]

Shouldn't you.. you know.. not actually give away some of the Spoiling material in the title? Generally if you're warning people away with the *SPOILER* in the title, you won't actually say anything useful until they click through.

But hey, that's just me.

[Kailden Jera]

I love spoilers. It make me actually get into the story as its get deep.

Bring on the spoilers!!!

Maybe it was Abbadon's that created the Titans. That's why all is connected.

[Knightfalls Revenge]

Yay...Fighting Abbadon could prove to be more fun than watching hopeless people trying to defeat Glint....hehe

[King Kull]

@OP

The reason for a spoiler is NOT to write the thing you could spoil directly behind the SPOILER, ffs!

[Brainbasher]

She says "my teacher" so maybe she is indeed the Evil Ruler Of All That Is Bad, but it is possible she is not the person we are going to kill, more the mislead person who is going to be killed at some point for trespassing into dwarven territory/fuel the transformation into a mortal form.

[MadCatvanHelsing]

Maybe something like this:

Varesh releases Abaddon, the she starts nagging about something he's going to give her (power, magic, pancakes whatever)... the he steps on her or something.
Then the 5 gods start talking or someone who works for them, you get loaded with blessins and your supposed to give Abaddon a couple of blue eyes and euh... get his sorry behind back where it came from :P.


that's my prediction, count in way to many rpg's, lots of movies and an active imagination :P

[ShadowReapr]

I'm thinking that Varesh isn't the all-evil one, rather the misguided one. And Kaythet, or whatever her name is... She seems to remind me of the Prophet behind Shiro's downfall. Which makes sense, all things considered.

On a mildly unrelated note, since may the best place to post it leiu of a new thread, think about this: Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall are, for lack of a better term, joined at the hip. Bad terminology, sure, but it goes on to a further point. We disregarded the idea of Evennia being from Elonia, but consider this, she only appears after the Point of Unity (a term for when our characters join the Greater Continuity of all three continents, when travel is allowed). We know, now, from the story, a team of Elonians led by Kormir (is that her name? I'm bloody terrible with names) went across the lands. Was Evennia one of them?

I wouldn't discount the theory. I doubt it was intentional at the time, but Anet do you love to solve continuity issues (Mhenlo and co dissapearing after Kryta and Canthan boat trip until the desert, anyone?)

Although, I do wonder if Nightfall is then, or later. Because, we all see Jatori, the intrepid pirate, yet now he's an older Canthan noble. Don't understand that, but meh.

[Darakus]

Well Varesh did call Kayhet her teacher which might have her be the introducing factor in her follow up of Abaddon, but as Kayhet dies on the third mission it removes her from the chain of command in my opinion.

My guess would be that we don't know who is the High priest of Abaddon's cult, Kayhet was probably charged of converting Varesh and driving her to battle and varesh is more than likely to be an important piece but not the archvillain.

[Quintus Antonius]

The Fortune Teller dies before the proverbial **** hits the proverbial fan in Factions, so I'm not all that surprised. If they are the same person, I wouldn't be surprised if "dying" is just their way of getting the heck out of dodge.

[ShadowReapr]

It actually makes sense. If we look at the facts, Fortune Teller tells Shiro to usurp, Kaymeht tells Varesh to usurp... Both rely on absurd paranoia. My guess is we don't want to be near when we kill Varesh.

Who knows, perhaps is Shiro hadn't been killed, he would have been declared ruler of Cantha. Or maybe he was just a Martyr, to bring on the Wind and it's chaotic power. I'd hazard a guess Varesh is some sort of Martyr, or at least a puppet, so the army may become the next Margonite invasion force.

[King Kull]

I think Varesh just wants the best for her people.

Her "teacher" just manipulated her into believing that Nightfall is inevitable. She is making a pact with the devil to get the best result for her Kournans - not for all of Elona or the world.

[Quintus Antonius]

I think Ossa's motivations are the same as any highly militant war head of state. She has power, she wants more.

[CMEPTb]

Would we be able to make some guesses just by the way Mr. Grubb writes?

[Ranger Nietzsche]

I hope that's not the case QA. I'm tired of extreme militarism leaders in RPGs. why does every damn country with a strong military heritage always end up evil. its just not fair.

[Arkhan The Black]

Probably because it reflect our history in the real world?

[False Visage]

That implies that the leaders of the US are evil too. That offends probably at least some of the users on the board I expect.

As for Varesh, I think it could go two ways. She could either in the end become good and help you defeat Abaddon which I feel is plausible; she'd know the most about him out of your allies. Or she could plunge further into evil and become at least a minor villian. It's hard to say though but judging she's on the boxart I'm inclined to say she'll come good. They haven't put villians on any of the other boxarts to date.

[King Kull]

Would we be able to make some guesses just by the way Mr. Grubb writes?

Well, Jeff Grubb is a D&D writer and created Al-Qadim, an arabian setting.

He is a very humorous writer, but I did not like his Lord Toede in Dragonlance too much, was more an annoying experience and a boring book.

I think the Black Moa episode during the Nightfall preview shows when his humor gets simple and good natured, a bit more of coruscating or black humor would not be bad.

"Tymora's Luck" and "Cormyr" were quite good.

He has a certain tendency for very cliché characters, but he has a knack for (medieval) societies and the game of thrones and power.


While he is no George R.R. Martin, I think his good natured humor will work very well with the limited options Guild Wars has to present a story. It will probably not be an epic masterpiece of literature, but go very well with an action-oriented RPG and be quite entertaining.


http://grubbstreet.blogspot.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Grubb

[Serendipity]

I hope that's not the case QA. I'm tired of extreme militarism leaders in RPGs. why does every damn country with a strong military heritage always end up evil. its just not fair.

They are not evil per se, but if you are a little nation next to a militaristic empire, you end up being the victim.

And at that time, you might righfully think that your invader is evil.

[Arkhan The Black]

That implies that the leaders of the US are evil too. That offends probably at least some of the users on the board I expect.


It was never my intention to offend anyone on the board. I'm just saying that power abuse and military resources has proved to be a horrible combination. Just look at WW2.

[Quintus Antonius]

No, the United States still has a democratic government and an active political climate of constant change. While there are people who come to power, they are always checked by the Constitution, Congress, and the people, among many other things. So, anyone who is offended with, or even agrees with, that statement is not up to speed on their political science.

Kouran has a leader that is not democratically elected and (from talking to NPCs) has been oppressing her people through constant and uncheckable militarization. She has absolute power in her country, and is trying to extent that power to other places. As of right now, comparing Ossa to Hitler would be an apt comparison. The game is at 1936-1938 right now. Everyone knows war with Hitler is inevitable, but Hitler is still keeping a "diplomatic" and "righteous" stance. Ossa is doing the exact same thing, with a fantasy spin of course.

[Santax]

It actually makes sense. If we look at the facts, Fortune Teller tells Shiro to usurp, Kaymeht tells Varesh to usurp... Both rely on absurd paranoia. My guess is we don't want to be near when we kill Varesh.

Who knows, perhaps is Shiro hadn't been killed, he would have been declared ruler of Cantha. Or maybe he was just a Martyr, to bring on the Wind and it's chaotic power. I'd hazard a guess Varesh is some sort of Martyr, or at least a puppet, so the army may become the next Margonite invasion force.
Shiro may have been declared. You need the blood of the Emperor to be ruler. Even if it is on your hands instead of in your veins.

[Quintus Antonius]

Doubt it. Did you see what the Luxons and Kurzicks did to him? They'd never have accepted him as ruler, especially with Viktor and Archemorous, their leaders, lying at his feet. Back then, the Luxons and Kurzicks were still just flinging "Yo' Mamma" jokes at each other, they weren't in a full fledged war.

[mrmango]

Exactly, so Shiro was emporer for about 5 seconds, give or take, and the luxons and kurzicks would be the new emporers, but... that wouldn't work, so maybe QA has a point. ;D

[Drec Sutal]

Fighting a God in person would be an exercize in futility, unless we had a God on our side in person. More likley we'll be fighting a hero for Abaddon, who he gave the power to kill like everything (made him pretty much a demi-god). We'll have to draw a strong favor from the pantheon to be given a temporary ability equal to Abaddon's hero's, or at least partial immunity from his awsome powers.

[Zaxares]

I hope that's not the case QA. I'm tired of extreme militarism leaders in RPGs. why does every damn country with a strong military heritage always end up evil. its just not fair.

Because when you have a system of government where power is centralised in the hands of a few, whether it be in a single individual, a single ruling body, or even an entire government branch or bureaus (in this case, the military) with no restraining checks, it takes only one generation to say, "Hey, we have all the power! We can do whatever we want!"

And thus tyrannical governments are born.

Power corrupts, and humans are easily corrupted. Tragic, but inescapable facts.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

yes but at the same time the most amazing efficient and remarkable organize human societies have been autocratic.

King Solomon, the 5 good emporers in Rome, Cincinatus

Basically in an autocratic system if the man at the top is good enough you have the best government you could ask for. It just annoys me that video games are so steeped in our western democratic bias that every autocracy is inherently evil and corrupt. Democracies are corrupt at time too, and can be worse for it since our eyes inherently give it a semblance of legitimacy

[Blazing Liger]

I have to agree with you there. The word 'tyrant' doesn't even necessarily refer to an evil ruler, but it has gained that connotation over time. I think we're getting a bit off-topic here, though.

[Zaxares]

yes but at the same time the most amazing efficient and remarkable organize human societies have been autocratic.

King Solomon, the 5 good emporers in Rome, Cincinatus

Basically in an autocratic system if the man at the top is good enough you have the best government you could ask for. It just annoys me that video games are so steeped in our western democratic bias that every autocracy is inherently evil and corrupt. Democracies are corrupt at time too, and can be worse for it since our eyes inherently give it a semblance of legitimacy

Yes. It can be a highly effective and superb form of government. A benevolent dictatorship is arguably the closest form of government we will ever get to earthly paradise, but like I said, all it takes is ONE wrong person to get into power. And then it all goes to hell.

Remember that Kourna was run wisely and well by Turai Ossa's descendants for a few hundred years, so obviously they did the right thing. Our characters just happen to come into the story at a point when that one wrong person is in charge. (And of course, why wouldn't we? It would make for a pretty boring game if we were in a land where everything was safe and secure. :tongue:)

[mikevrk]

Varesh: Excellent, my teacher. Nightfall is at hand. Praise Abbadon!
Kehyet: Praise Abbadon! *fade out*

All this time, there is someone behind a pillar to the right of them eavesdropping. I think this is very compelling evidence that Varesh Ossa is the corrupt ruler.


lol :) All praise the Abbadon !


becos' his Realm of Torture is most likely next (to UW and FoW) elite area :)

[captain lucky]

Its possible as well that varesh is a "good" ruler she cares for her people she has just been crupted by the power of abbadon and she is thinking that what she does is the best thing for her people I guess we will have to wait and see how she develops from when we get there

[spne]

All this time, there is someone behind a pillar to the right of them eavesdropping. I think this is very compelling evidence that Varesh Ossa is the corrupt ruler.

The girl behind the pillar is Tahlkora, and she will be a hero to fight at your side. She can be seen on here: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gamecontents/nightfall/

[Quintus Antonius]

I removed Ossa's name from the title because I had recieved some complaints that spoilers were viewable from the mainpage without ever coming into the Lore Forum.