View Full Version : Exploit in guildwars
We got ganked by exploiters twice tonight. Some guilds running in with a bunch of ritualists using signet of might and bam guild lord goes down.
I had no idea what happened really but it was clearly exploiters at work.
This is just boring they should lock ladder during these beta events so things like this don't happen.
Agreed. we got ganked by it as well.
bodygaurd went down we were like wtf, then guild lord down.
I definatly want to see people getting banned even a temp ban from this as even top ranked guilds are using it and tbh i think its disgracefull.
my two cents.
~S
Hey Kent ;)
I got some pics in my topic, should be moved proibably.
(Faesio btw)
Kakashi Chan
24-09-2006, 22:03
I think we told ANet LAST TIME to Lock the friggin Ladder too... it'd be nice if they started listening.
I think we told ANet LAST TIME to Lock the friggin Ladder too... it'd be nice if they started listening.
Yeah i know i would like that too but what can you do.
Anyway now we know how it works atleast.
Summon a spirit.
Use signet of might.
Call the target.
Done.
What's with all of the Kents in GW? :grin:
Anyways, this should be dealt with in the most brutal manner possible. Anet has a good chance to show how serious they are, and that the eula isn't just a string of empty legalese. (Well ok, most of it would still be, but anyways... )
Perma-ban for repeat offenders! :rant:
It was amusing to watch, though.
I agree, teams who used this should be banned.
Lord Valdrum
24-09-2006, 23:46
Its the same as the PvP events, everything overpowered, top ranked players got a hell of a lot of fame using the exploits. And all I will say is bravo to them for working it out.
If it can be done, it will be done, if you can't beat them with your own tactics, use theirs against them. I don't want it banned, I don't care whether you think it's disgraceful or not. Blame ArenaNet not the players for working out how to exploit something.
Its the same as the PvP events, everything overpowered, top ranked players got a hell of a lot of fame using the exploits. And all I will say is bravo to them for working it out.
If it can be done, it will be done, if you can't beat them with your own tactics, use theirs against them. I don't want it banned, I don't care whether you think it's disgraceful or not. Blame ArenaNet not the players for working out how to exploit something.
I would blame anet if they dont do anything to undo this...
Its the same as the PvP events, everything overpowered, top ranked players got a hell of a lot of fame using the exploits.
Fame, schwame. Fame can't be lost and there are no prices at stake. Getting a victory streak in Tombs even for the full time the bug was in effect would net about 200-300 fame, a meaningless amount for top ranked players.
EDIT: Ok, I'm not sure about this, maybe the bug was used for a longer period in Tombs. But in high-level GvG, it was only two-three hours.
This is beyond simple imbalance. The time window to abuse the bug was only a couple of hours before it was fixed, so it's BS to talk about equal opportunity. During that window, a certain guild in top 20 accumulated over a hundred points of rating by abusing the bug, boosting them over a dozen ranks.
Fortunately it's only the beginning of the season, and the Elo rating system can self-correct anomalies like this over time even if no ladder rollback occurs. (Longer ladder seasons would be even better for this, but that's another topic...)
Technically, Anet has themselves covered. Bug abuse is a bannable offense according to the Eula. The abusers have only themselves to blame; it was they who chose to use, repeatedly, such an obviously game-breaking skill. They chose to break the rules by exploiting a bug. Anet would be completely justified in wiping the abusers' accounts.
It's unlikely that we'll see bans or a rollback. It's just a fun season with negligible prizes. Something should be done, though. At the very least disqualifying the worst abusers from the ladder and maybe a timeout of a few days, if for no other reason than showing the community that Anet takes this competitive business seriously.
Competitive games need referees.
Ace Bear
25-09-2006, 02:03
This is just to test the new skills and such before Nightfall comes out. Nothing more, nothing less. In 2 days when things are back to normal guess what? Those teams who used these "exploits" won't have what it takes to actually compete in a real gvg setting so they will be back down to their original number soon enough. Banning is way to harsh, just watch them get embarassed in observer mode after it is only prophecies and factions skills.
Yeah the ladder will correct itself over time. But this would be a good opportunity for Anet to set a precedent. The community has complained for a long time now that Anet is too passive in handling ladder abuse. The disqualification of Te and QQ was one step forward, doing something about bug abusers would be another.
Or they could just use this opportunity to issue a warning about what their stance will be during championship seasons.
Would be fun to see some bug abuser accounts wiped, though. Schadenfreude ftw. :grin:
Ion The Sudden
25-09-2006, 14:34
guys its a build, evryone finds a counter...anyways, ganking is bad, just kill them and GG....:rolleyes:
Actually, it was a bugged signet with 1-second cast and 5-second recharge that killed any target, including the Guild Lord, after a 10-second delay (not counterable by any means.)
So no, it was not just a build.
ZiegDivine
25-09-2006, 15:51
During that window, a certain guild in top 20 accumulated over a hundred points of rating by abusing the bug, boosting them over a dozen ranks.
The Spearmen are back at it? (remember the dervish weekend?)
Lord Valdrum
25-09-2006, 16:36
severed - why didn't you use the exploit to get the higher ranking then? Moan all you want, whether it's beatable or not, it's ArenaNet's fault in the end, not the people who found out about it. So no bans, or rollbacks whatsoever should be made.
It was done - deal with it and stop *****ing.
guys its a build, evryone finds a counter...anyways, ganking is bad, just kill them and GG....
Bad kneejerk response. Let me lay out what happened, then you can decide how to best "counter" it.
1) Start GvG
2) Run straight to enemy GL
3) Lay spirit near enemy GL
4) Use Signet of Might on enemy GL
5) Wait 10 seconds
6) Win
JodoKast
25-09-2006, 19:54
Anyway, since the ladder has only began and since the rewards are only for the very few first places, it is highly unlikely that this absuse will bear much impact on the final outcome.
It is still lame and should be a bannable offense though. There is not much excuse for those people that deliberately abused the bug.
However since it was so widespread (while the most visible were those gvg ladder guilds abuse, you got exploiters in HA, TA, RA, everywhere else too - don't forget about those...) , i think that banning all the offenders would mean ban a very large amount of player and that is not practical by any mean, let alone very poor marketing when you are about to launch a new product.
severed - why didn't you use the exploit to get the higher ranking then?
Because it was such an obviously broken bug. We got tipped off about it quite early, but we opted not to play gvg at all after the bug came into the light. It felt too much like rolling dice; we didn't feel like taking -25 hits from random lowbie guilds running it. (With both teams running Sig of Might it was just a gank-race.)
Moan all you want, whether it's beatable or not, it's ArenaNet's fault in the end, not the people who found out about it.
BS. Anet has set the rules, and the rules state that exploiting bugs is a bannable offense. People choose to break the rules by using bugged skills. If they get punished for it, they have absolutely no right to cry foul.
Anet may have been sloppy in enforcing their rules, but they did take a stand last season when they disqualified Te and QQ for much less severe offenses. Now they have to punish Sig of Might users, or their policy will be even less consistent and credible than before.
For lesser exploits, small imbalances and such, think about it in this way. Pretty much everyone drives a bit above the speed limit. Some go above a lot, others go little. Even those who speed a lot get punished only a fraction of the time.
"Everyone does it" is not an excuse. Yep, it might have been customary so far that exploiters get away without punishment. Still, Anet has full rights to start enforcing their rules, which imo they should do if GW is to succeed as a competitive game.
Ion The Sudden
25-09-2006, 20:15
guys guys guys, the guilds will only get to a certian rank and anyways the preview event is almost done, they will just get wiped of the ladder anyways...
How many losses did you suffer from this Teqnique anyway..?
How many losses did you suffer from this Teqnique anyway..?
None, since we didn't play. But it's not the point.
i think that banning all the offenders would mean ban a very large amount of player and that is not practical by any mean
Of course it's not practical, and that's why banning only the most blatant or high-profile offenders will do just fine. As long as a credible threat of punishment exists, it will reduce stuff like that happening in the future. Ever thought about how the law enforcement system works?
Eww...I didn't even hear about that one....wow.
IMHO any guild that abused this bug should be removed from the Competative ladder until the end of this season. All players that are in those guilds should receive a temporary ban from the game, and not allowed to compete in the current ladder season. Same for all HA players who abused this bug.
Xunlai Agent
25-09-2006, 22:04
First off Anet just needs to learn to lock the damn ladder and stop messing about with it. Why would you punish the people in Halls on this? I mean honestly fame means nothing, never did and quite simply will never mean anything to anyone with half a brain. (Double Fame Weekend and the million gimmick builds did nothing to help the situation)
People arguing that the exploit means nothing because those guilds will fall right back out are sadly mistaken. Good guilds were using this too and they can manage to ride out the few losses that they will receive by having played the exploit for 2 hrs plus (thus gaining lots of rating) and not playing during peak hours in future. (If they have a generally high skill level they might be able to ride with the top guilds by forcing them into mistakes etc).
I ran it with my PvE guild (I felt that doing it with my PvP guild that respects its rank would have been dishonorable) to play 4 games using the exploit and then the patch rolled in. Do I regret playing the exploit? Not really it was Anets mistake to even make it possible and allow the guild to reap rating points for this, plus it was fun. Do I care if they temp ban the account or stop it from competing in future PvP? No as I stated it's my pve account so that really doesn't matter. Do I care if the guild is disqualified? Hell no, we were never going to compete above top 500 anyways despite being in an alliance with the likes of SK, TSF and JEEP. You can try and punish the people for exploiting a bug that Anet let them exploit and gain rank points with but it will be pointless...
Lord Valdrum
25-09-2006, 22:12
Xunlai Agent - I totally agree with you on that one. And as I said, regardless who did it, it's Anet's fault for not locking the ladders. Not because people exploited it.
Ace Bear
26-09-2006, 01:13
Lol, Thats like murdering someone and saying its not my fault for using the gun to shoot the person I was just using the gun for its purpose its the makers fault. :shocked: :laughing:
Hmmz, Anet did _something_ about this...
Guild Ladder Adjusted 25 September 2006
Due to a technical error discovered during the weekend, we are doing a ladder adjustment of just under 14 hours. This will help correct the inappropriate wins or losses that were the result of this error. For further details, please see the information page concerning this decision.
Uh... rollback ftl? Even doing nothing would have been a better option imo. Excuse me, gonna go watch the flames dance at tgh... :laugh:
Apok Omni
26-09-2006, 04:44
It was a fair rollback, imo.
My guild lost two times at this and it damaged our rank disasterously. All we wanted to do was have fun but somehow, a guild found the bug and used it in HoH where everyone can see it.
And Anet responded fairly quick at this exploit, perhaps the deadliest one yet. It takes a while to code, decode, rollback, etc. So to all of those who blame anet for not fixing it immediatly, calm down. It isn't as easy as pushing a button reading ''Fix Exploit''. It takes a while, yet they did it fairly quick.
All in all, this is a thing of the past, and it will happen at all beta-events. Sometimes their beta-testers are not testing the skills 100% accurately, which is why Anet depends on us to find and use these as experiments.
Xunlai Agent
26-09-2006, 07:04
Lol, Thats like murdering someone and saying its not my fault for using the gun to shoot the person I was just using the gun for its purpose its the makers fault. :shocked: :laughing:
Wow this example is really really poor, I going to have to question your intelligence after reading that crap. That was an awful comparison and completely off (Well Done?!). Poor....
It was a fair rollback, imo.
My guild lost two times at this and it damaged our rank disasterously. All we wanted to do was have fun but somehow, a guild found the bug and used it in HoH where everyone can see it.
And Anet responded fairly quick at this exploit, perhaps the deadliest one yet. It takes a while to code, decode, rollback, etc. So to all of those who blame anet for not fixing it immediatly, calm down. It isn't as easy as pushing a button reading ''Fix Exploit''. It takes a while, yet they did it fairly quick.
All in all, this is a thing of the past, and it will happen at all beta-events. Sometimes their beta-testers are not testing the skills 100% accurately, which is why Anet depends on us to find and use these as experiments.
Very fair indeed. Took away 20 wins from us. Yesterday nite I viewed ladder and we were still leading with 100 points, now we're down 2nd spot and the gamingstreak (MANY HOURS) was totally useless.
Thx.
Ion The Sudden
26-09-2006, 13:43
Wow this example is really really poor, I going to have to question your intelligence after reading that crap. That was an awful comparison and completely off (Well Done?!). Poor....
Lol this is turning into a flaming subject, good stuff guys keep it up lol:grin:
Parker Bsb
26-09-2006, 15:24
Flames = bad :rolleyes:
My opinion is this - Anet needs to lock the ladder during beta weekends. That or people that are worried about rank need to learn to stop playing during these weekend events.
The rollback was a good move on anet's part; it sucks for any legimate guilds that were winning without using the exploit during that time frame, but likley there were very few in that category anyways.
Patccmoi
26-09-2006, 20:06
I believe rollback is fine, but it's really just a sad way of 'locking' the ladder for that period of time (which wasn't even all beta weekend).
I just hope they learn from their mistake and lock it beforehand, with everyone knowing it (so no one will actually try to gain ranking during that time). A bug like that, if ladder was locked, would just have been funny and i possibly would've tried it just for the heck of it (it's a good laugh and if ladder is locked, it won't truly disturb anyone, they need to fix it still but no one will scream. For this time though i wasn't even online at that time anyway).
It's seriously stupid to leave ladder open when you know exploits are very possible to come out. I mean sure, others also played 'real' ladder during that weekend and gained fame, but i don't consider the toxicity pressure (non-elite Lacerate on crack, wtf were they thinking) or hypochondria spike to actually be worth ladder ranking either. That's debatable, and i don't plan to start a big debate on balanced/unbalanced skills, but the point is just that it was a BETA, and a beta is very likely to have either exploitable bugs or just broken skills / skill combos that weren't tested properly before (because... it was a beta!), and leaving the ladder open is just stupid in this case. I bet there would've been a lot more people actually GvGing and testing new stuff and new build ideas in GvG using new skills if the ladder was closed too, giving better testing in the end. From what i saw of the ladder, very few good guilds changed their build much (included Toxicity, some Hypochondria spike, the more 'obvious' stuff that don't really disturb their build but actually improve it) and i don't remember seeing Dervish or Paragons used much at all. Because they didn't want to risk screwing up their ranking, which is fully understandable.
Ladder lock is just the obvious choice... do it next time please!
Epinephrine
26-09-2006, 20:19
Guys: Locking the ladder will result in nobody taking the weekend seriously, and bugs won't be found, skills won't get a workout and you will have a crappy balance come release.
The number of games run over a single weekend like this is probably well over all the alpha testing games over the whole development phase. As someone who has studied statistics I'll just point out how much can be gleaned from that pile of data - and if it didn't offer a chance to advance on the ladder people would be ho-hum about it. The ladder isn't locked because they need to balance the skills.
There is however a big difference between using skills that are overpowered and finding clever combinations, and using skills that are obviously bugged. Using overpowered skills is ok - that's fair game. Using a bugged skill is a banable offense. Upon discovering the skill it should have immediately been reported to ANet, who would pull the plug on the skill. Anyone who would abuse a bugged skill shouldn't be part of competitive play; it's like discovering that the drug test doesn't detect certain anabolic steroids and juicing up. It's still a violation.
Now that they are caught, punish them, and harshly. Will it weaken the amount of testing? I really doubt it - you'll still get the huge amount of data needed to make pre-release changes to skill balance, but maybe people will think twice about using bugged skills.
David Holtzman
26-09-2006, 21:23
The ladder isn't locked because they need to balance the skills.
Nah, the ladder isn't locked because they didn't think about this sort of thing. You'd still find plenty of overpowered skills, because people would GvG/HA just to try out new skill combos.
As for using bugged skills, well, it's not the player's responsibility to figure out what works the way it should and what doesn't. QA is Anet's job, not the consumer's. The player is only obligated to play within the rules of the game. If Anet enters a new move that has some ridiculous effect, there's no real reason why a player shouldn't use it.
JodoKast
26-09-2006, 21:38
Nah, the ladder isn't locked because they didn't think about this sort of thing. You'd still find plenty of overpowered skills, because people would GvG/HA just to try out new skill combos.
As for using bugged skills, well, it's not the player's responsibility to figure out what works the way it should and what doesn't. QA is Anet's job, not the consumer's. The player is only obligated to play within the rules of the game. If Anet enters a new move that has some ridiculous effect, there's no real reason why a player shouldn't use it.
The reason is called Code of Conduct :
"The following rules govern basic interaction within the Guild Wars game and the Guild Wars websites. Please be aware that failure to comply with these rules of conduct may result in the termination of your Guild Wars game account according to the Guild Wars User Agreement."
"18. You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars. Bugs should be promptly reported via "Ask a Question" at http://support.guildwars.com."
This covers bug skills.
Signer of Might was a bugged skill, nothing it is description warrants for the effect it actually triggered.
You may still use it but it may lead to the termination of your account.
This being said, with the amplitude of the exploit this weekend, it would have been difficult to punish any one.
Yes, David Holtzman as much as i hate to say it you and all the others just have to accept the fact there is a Code of Conduct and it says exacly what JodoKast just posted.
If the Code of Conduct is not meant to be obeyed then we can discuss why is it there?
I know that people have different opinions but in this case that is irrelevant.
Anet responded quickly to this ladder plague by fixing the bugged skill within a couple of hours. No players or guilds have been punished. Lets all consider this a friendly warning and get over it.
As for using bugged skills, well, it's not the player's responsibility to figure out what works the way it should and what doesn't.
In the EULA there is a clear section on bug abusing - and its not allowed. You're lucky you didn't get banned :undecided:
David Holtzman
27-09-2006, 09:31
This covers bug skills.
Nope, it doesn't. Oh, I admit it appears to, but in reality it covers nothing at all. Neither the player base nor the Anet devs abide by the ruling at all. As such, it is meaningless- mere words on a page.
************************************************** ********
Yes, David Holtzman as much as i hate to say it you and all the others just have to accept the fact there is a Code of Conduct and it says exacly what JodoKast just posted.
Oh, I'd never deny that the Rules of Conduct exist (and they are rules, not a code), just that they have no meaning or relation with regards to bug use.
If the Code of Conduct is not meant to be obeyed then we can discuss why is it there?
It's there so Anet can point at it and say, "We told you so" when they decide to ban you or punish you in some way. That's really it.
Anet responded quickly to this ladder plague by fixing the bugged skill within a couple of hours. No players or guilds have been punished. Lets all consider this a friendly warning and get over it.
No one has been punished? I wouldn't want to be the one to tell Deya that. He was rather irritated that 13hours of gaming were reset pushing Val back to rank 2 instead of 1 with a hundred point lead.
************************************************** ********
In the EULA there is a clear section on bug abusing - and its not allowed.
Nope, actually there isn't. Nothing in the EULA at all about bug abuse.
You're lucky you didn't get banned
Luck? Nah, not a chance. Anet knew we were abusing the skill, because the dev guild is in our alliance and we flat out told them. The result: they made a group to abuse it too. So much for rule 18 eh? Anet cares as much about rule 18 as the player base does: not at all. Rule 18 is just an easy way for them to point to some text that allows them to ban or punish as they see fit. You'll note just how vague rule 18 actually is. Anything considered "unintended" by them, not you, is ban worthy. Any player action they, in their sole discretion, deem is "innappropriate" is ban worthy.
The EULA is a useful tool for the company because it lets them point to forewarning whenever they want to do something, but people take it far too seriously.
This covers bug skills.
Nope, it doesn't. Oh, I admit it appears to, but in reality it covers nothing at all. Neither the player base nor the Anet devs abide by the ruling at all. As such, it is meaningless- mere words on a page.
That's why this opportunity should be used to set a precedent. Anet showed some active interest with the dq's of Te and QQ, so it would be logical of them to continue on the same path, otherwise their policy is too inconsistent.
If something like the Sig of Might bug gets abused during, say, the last day of a championship ladder season, Anet is pretty much forced to take more severe action than just doing a ham-handed rollback. Yes, the EULA / Rules of Conduct cover that in theory, but would that be enough for punished exploiters QQ'ing that "anet can't do this to us since they never took action before!"
Even Sirlin admits that there are truly game-breaking moves that are an exception to the Play to Win mentality. If Sig of Might wasn't that, what is?
That's why this opportunity should be used to set a precedent. Anet showed some active interest with the dq's of Te and QQ, so it would be logical of them to continue on the same path, otherwise their policy is too inconsistent.
If something like the Sig of Might bug gets abused during, say, the last day of a championship ladder season, Anet is pretty much forced to take more severe action than just doing a ham-handed rollback. Yes, the EULA / Rules of Conduct cover that in theory, but would that be enough for punished exploiters QQ'ing that "anet can't do this to us since they never took action before!"
Even Sirlin admits that there are truly game-breaking moves that are an exception to the Play to Win mentality. If Sig of Might wasn't that, what is?
I'm a bit out of touch again. Can someone tell me what exacly what QQ and TE did to get disqualified?
And well, David Holzman seems to know what he's talking about so maybe we shouldn't take the code of conduct too serious afterall.
I'm a bit out of touch again. Can someone tell me what exacly what QQ and TE did to get disqualified?
Didn't follow that debacle too closely, but basically, they asked other team(s) to resign and got punished even though those teams did not comply. The disqualification was based on "intent to manipulate the ladder", and had nothing to do with bug abuse. In a way it could be considered a separate issue.
maybe we shouldn't take the code of conduct too serious afterall.
I'd like to be certain about it, though. If we find a bugged skill, withhold the information, and then decide to exploit it in a more "serious" competitive situation than just a fun ladder with negligible prizes, it would be a shame to get dq'd just out of the blue. Right now it feels like anything goes, and there's no real consequences for exploiting bugs. That's fine if it stays that way, as long as it's consistent.
Playing the refereeing system, if there is any, is just another part of the game. Knowing how the system works, and how to use the system for your own ends, is integral to playing to win. Knowing that exploiters get consistently punished would add some certainty.
JodoKast
27-09-2006, 20:47
Nope, it doesn't. Oh, I admit it appears to, but in reality it covers nothing at all. Neither the player base nor the Anet devs abide by the ruling at all. As such, it is meaningless- mere words on a page.
You haven't read all my post.
The usage of the word "may" is key.
All i am saying is that using bugged mechanisms "may" get your account terminated, that is all it really means anyway.
So you can still exploit those mechanisms as you want, you have no obligation to abide to any sort of morale code but you explicitely authorize Anet to potentially terminate your account at their discretion.
This is how some people got banned on abusing bugs (kill own team in RA).
So we are in line in what you and I say here.
This being said, wide spread abuse doesn't make an abuse legal but makes it very difficult for ArenaNet to take any termination action because of it.
David Holtzman
27-09-2006, 22:33
That's why this opportunity should be used to set a precedent.
There's two problems with that plan. First, a precendent has already been set. Anet's history of responses to bug abuse already exists and players have already responded to it. Second, the sort of precedent you want simply cannot be made with the rules written as they are. You can't police people all the time, so you need rules that are clear enough for people to enforce on themselves. But, there's just no way to do it with the current rules set.
Anet showed some active interest with the dq's of Te and QQ, so it would be logical of them to continue on the same path, otherwise their policy is too inconsistent.
There were no DQs. Both QQ and Te have their capes (although QQ reformed under a new name and thus lost them anyways). A lot of talk and no actual punishment came out of that event. Which is good, because QQ and Te and emt were absolutely correct in their position.
If something like the Sig of Might bug gets abused during, say, the last day of a championship ladder season, Anet is pretty much forced to take more severe action than just doing a ham-handed rollback.
Well, the solution to that sort of issue is to simply obviate the problem. Don't introduce a whole bunch of experimental skills into a live ladder. Not unless you want to see some expermentation at least.
Yes, the EULA / Rules of Conduct cover that in theory, but would that be enough for punished exploiters QQ'ing that "anet can't do this to us since they never took action before!"
Well, that's just a stupid argument. I would never make that sort of argument. The reason Anet shouldn't do it is because their rules don't provide reasonable forewarning, not because they haven't done so before.
Even Sirlin admits that there are truly game-breaking moves that are an exception to the Play to Win mentality. If Sig of Might wasn't that, what is?
Actually Sirlin doesn't claim that this is a game-breaking move. We know this because we emailed him for his view on the subject. Of course, he doesn't really know anything about GW so his words should be taken with a grain of salt. Nevertheless, the point remains that the playerbase cannot reasonably be held to be clairvoyant and figure out the divine will of the game creator.
************************************************** ********
You haven't read all my post.
Of course I have. I wouldn't do you the discourtesy of responding to you without reading your words.
All i am saying is that using bugged mechanisms "may" get your account terminated, that is all it really means anyway.
You said that as well, but you also claimed that the rules covered the issue. It was the latter claim I disagreed with. As to the former, it's a simple tautology. In a system where Anet can basically ban you for any reason, anything MAY get you punished.
Now, I understand and sympathize with what Anet is trying to do, but they're going about it all wrong and it keeps backfiring in their faces. This is at least the dozenth time this sort of thing has happened, and the solution has remained constant.
First, a precendent has already been set.
Agreed. And if they are not going to change their stance, I guess I can live with it. I was merely trying to say that this is one of the best opportunities they can possibly have to introduce more "policing", since there's not much at stake in the current fun season.
Second, the sort of precedent you want simply cannot be made with the rules written as they are. You can't police people all the time, so you need rules that are clear enough for people to enforce on themselves. But, there's just no way to do it with the current rules set.
I've heard that argument before, but I doubt it's humanly possible to write much more precise rules for such a complex game as GW.
One reason why a self-regulating community is not possible is the prominence of the official ladder over any 3rd-party tournaments. Anet is the sole adjudicator of the official tournaments, and thus has all the power in the matter. They'd have to externalize their control somehow, and one way of doing it could be a better support for 3rd-party competition.
There were no DQs.
Good to know, thanks for the correction. Nevertheless, Anet were obviously interested in the issue, even if it amounted to nothing in the end.
Nevertheless, the point remains that the playerbase cannot reasonably be held to be clairvoyant and figure out the divine will of the game creator.
Neither can the creators of the game expected to be omniscient. A complex man-made system, such as GW, is bound to include human errors. I don't think it's reasonably possible to write such all-encompassing rules that every angle gets covered. For this reason, I'm still of the opinion that the game would need some sort of active adjudication system even if the rules don't get revised.
Well, the solution to that sort of issue is to simply obviate the problem. Don't introduce a whole bunch of experimental skills into a live ladder. Not unless you want to see some expermentation at least.
Locking the ladder for the duration of beta events would be an improvement, but does not address the issue of a broken mechanic being used during critical moments of a live ladder. We have, what, over a thousand skills come Nightfall, and it's IMO within the realm of possibility that an exploit gets discovered, withheld, and then used in playoffs, for example.
Actually Sirlin doesn't claim that this is a game-breaking move.
According to his theories it probably wasn't. It had possible counters, such as Ignorance, Humility, snares and interrupts. It was equally available for everyone to use. However, I'd argue that the Sig of Might changed the nature of the game so much, and invalidated so many other strategies, that it essentially broke the game.
David Holtzman
28-09-2006, 09:59
Agreed. And if they are not going to change their stance, I guess I can live with it. I was merely trying to say that this is one of the best opportunities they can possibly have to introduce more "policing", since there's not much at stake in the current fun season.
The best time to introduce it is before a new season starts. Just implement a new ruleset and police accordingly. Problem solved, assuming the new ruleset isn't as frightfully idiotic as the current one.
I've heard that argument before, but I doubt it's humanly possible to write much more precise rules for such a complex game as GW.
More precise than "Don't do bad stuff"? I don't see how you could fail... A general definition of unacceptable bug use would work well. It could even be fairly general. The problem is that the current rule is so general as to be meaningless.
Good to know, thanks for the correction. Nevertheless, Anet were obviously interested in the issue, even if it amounted to nothing in the end.
Interest is nice. Results are better. When Anet moves from the former to the latter, I'll start supporting them on this issue.
Neither can the creators of the game expected to be omniscient. A complex man-made system, such as GW, is bound to include human errors. I don't think it's reasonably possible to write such all-encompassing rules that every angle gets covered. For this reason, I'm still of the opinion that the game would need some sort of active adjudication system even if the rules don't get revised.
Sure, but how many errors are as gamebreaking as Signet of Might? It's one thing to run through gates, it's another to kill any selectable object in the game. There's no good reason things like that shouldn't be caught. In general, bug use is not a bad thing. I can't count the times I've one-man blocked on Sacred or run through gates in GvG. Nothing wrong with that at all. It's just the few really serious bugs that matter, and those could be caught simply by using the skills.
Locking the ladder for the duration of beta events would be an improvement, but does not address the issue of a broken mechanic being used during critical moments of a live ladder. We have, what, over a thousand skills come Nightfall, and it's IMO within the realm of possibility that an exploit gets discovered, withheld, and then used in playoffs, for example.
I think it highly unlikely that such would occur. But if it did... so what? Good on them for figuring it out ahead of everyone else. Next match everyone knows it, and let's see what happens. So long as it isn't a gamebreaking bug (imagine someone figured out how to 1 man block Sacred) all it will do is make the game more interesting.
According to his theories it probably wasn't. It had possible counters, such as Ignorance, Humility, snares and interrupts. It was equally available for everyone to use. However, I'd argue that the Sig of Might changed the nature of the game so much, and invalidated so many other strategies, that it essentially broke the game.
Sure, it was gamebreaking. But so what? The problem is not that it was gamebreaking but that it wasn't against the rules.
adrenalinq
28-09-2006, 11:20
I am not agree with all of you. Learn to play! Yes, it is difficult to understand new rules, but look at top guilds! I didnt notice that Valandor or CoW lost to some noobish Ele spike, Blood or this farm Rt build with signet. It seems imballanced but it is not. The key is better understanding and countering this build - not trying to play against it like against everyone else. There are a lot of other good skills added. Think and use the brains and stop this noobish crap like "touchers imballanced" or "spirit of destruction owns".
P.S. I belive that GW is the most perfectly balanced game.
Parker Bsb
28-09-2006, 14:00
... did you even read the thread?
Signet of might - caused your Guild lord to die 10 seconds after he was selected... no aamount of healing would protect him... this is no spike but a broken skill that was fixed.
I didnt notice that Valandor or CoW lost to some noobish Ele spike, Blood or this farm Rt build with signet.
Val lost to a Sig-gank in about a couple of minutes.
So long as it isn't a gamebreaking bug (imagine someone figured out how to 1 man block Sacred) all it will do is make the game more interesting.
I did mean a bug comparable to the Sig of Might. Granted, it's very unlikely, and we probably shouldn't worry about it until/if it happens.
More precise than "Don't do bad stuff"? I don't see how you could fail... A general definition of unacceptable bug use would work well. It could even be fairly general.
Drawing the line between an acceptable bug and a game-breaking bug can be damned hard, if not impossible. Pretty much every found exploit has to be classified on a case-by-case basis, which requires effort, and these cases can be impossible to foresee before discovering the actual exploit. For this reason, you'll always need some human adjudication to review the cases if you don't go with an anything goes -policy.
Even Sirlin can't offer a well-defined rule about what is game-breaking and what is not. In his articles he simply draws a vague line supported by some examples. I don't value rules all that much, since rules can't cover everything, and you'll still need precedents to support the rules, and precedents tend to have the most weight in less than clear-cut cases. (Same thing in law, btw.)
I'm not a fan of either zero-tolerance or anything goes policies (or laws :grin: ), but those do require the least effort (though zero tolerance needs active enforcing.) GW is rather well balanced and bug-free, so it's actually quite logical that Anet chooses to trust in their ability to keep the game free of exploits, and consequently allow free use of any bug exploits that don't get caught in testing. However, as Sig of Might proved, there can be such extreme cases that action has to be taken, and a true anything goes -policy is simply not possible. Again, we bump into the necessity of human refereeing.
I think it highly unlikely that such [a game-breaking bug] would occur [during a live season]. But if it did... so what? Good on them for figuring it out ahead of everyone else.
Agreed, no problem with that really. I just wouldn't want to get burned out of the blue at the level I'm playing at.
Winding down the discussion at this point, I hope I've made my position clear enough.
I am not agree with all of you. Learn to play! Yes, it is difficult to understand new rules, but look at top guilds! I didnt notice that Valandor or CoW lost to some noobish Ele spike, Blood or this farm Rt build with signet. It seems imballanced but it is not. The key is better understanding and countering this build - not trying to play against it like against everyone else. There are a lot of other good skills added. Think and use the brains and stop this noobish crap like "touchers imballanced" or "spirit of destruction owns".
P.S. I belive that GW is the most perfectly balanced game.
This post made my day. Thanks for the laugh.
This post made my day. Thanks for the laugh.
Yeah same here lol :)
vBulletin® v3.7.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.