A Treatise: The Crimes of Abaddon, Margonites, Menzies, the Mursaat and Dhuum [Archive]

Tuor Son Of Huor

27-09-2006, 08:50

My personal conjectures are in Italics.. Otherwise, I have stuck to fact as strictly as possible.

Facts:
#1:
On one hand, we have the 5 Gods of Tyria.

On the other, we have the "evil" gods:
Dhuum; usurped by Grenth as Lord of the Underworld.
Menzies; Balthazar's brother
Abaddon; the Fallen god trapped in the Realm Of Torment.

#2
The Abaddon worshipping-Margonites waged a war a thousand years ago against the worshippers of the 5 Gods in the Northern Plains of Elona. They were boosted by "horrific transformations" that gave them powers. i.e wings, many eyes, and the ability to animate suits of armor, i.e the enchanted.
The Margonites were defeated, and Abaddon was imprisoned in the RoT.
This would have occurred around 70AE (mouvelian calendar)

#3
The Realm of Torment is a pit in the Underworld, controlled by Grenth. the Previous Lord of the Underworld was Dhuum, who was "destroyed" by Grenth. So, in effect, Grenth is Abaddon's Jailer.
The Underworld is currently being invaded by Demons. The force behind these demons is unknown/unnnamed.

#4
Menzies pits his Shadow army against the Balthazar's Eternal army in the Fissure of Woe, in a war to control this realm.

#5
The Flameseeker prophecies claimed that whoever controls the scepter of Orr, would have control over the Titans. It also claims that the Mursaat will be destroyed by the chosen and the Door of Komalie will be opened. The Scepter of Orr is found by the White Mantle in the jungles of Kryta.

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Questions:

Why was Abaddon jailed?
Where is Dhuum?
Are the Margonites the predecessors of the Mursaat?
Why did the Mursaat want the Scepter of Orr?
Why were the Mursaat guarding the Door of Komalie against the heroes of Tyria?
Why would Glint ask us to release, then defeat the titans?

Answers:

Why was Abaddon jailed?

After the 5 Gods left Arah, and placed the bloodstones in the Caldera of the Volcano, they left the Mortal Realm and went into the Rifts. There is no mention on whether Abaddon himself went into the rifts with the other Gods.
Abaddon seized this oppertunity to claim the mastery of Magic by retrieving the bloodstones. He did this by erupting the volcano.
Soon after, he used his powers to grant the margonites tremendous power through "horrific transformations". *
He told them of ascension, but not how. This would be essential if he were to take the fight to the 5 Gods themselves in the rifts. He would also use the Margonites as his mortal army to conquer the rest of Tyria.
Abaddon and his army were defeated, and for his assault on the Gods and races of Tyria he was thrown into the Realm of Torment.

Where is Dhuum?

Our information about Dhuum comes from the Reaper of the Chaos Planes.

"Before the time of Grenth, when death was ruled by a cruel and unjust god, there stood a tower and a throne on this very plain. But Grenth rose up and destroyed the one called Dhuum and shattered down his tower, leaving only these storms of chaos as a reminder of the power that once held dominion here. My vigil over these lands was broken for a time, and I can feel a resurgence of the old taint. Four horsemen approach, riders of Dhuum. Destroy them before they can reclaim this place and throw the underworld into chaos!"

"Them" and "They" refers to the 4 Riders of Dhuum - not Dhuum himself. Thus is can be postulated that Dhuum himself will not return, but the malice of his servants is what drives them to attempt the Demonic invasion of the Underworld.

Another linguistic cue is that Dhuum was "destroyed", while Abaddon was simply "defeated".

Are the Margonites the predecessors of the Mursaat?

The Margonites are the best candidates to be the predecessors of the Mursaat because of their Anthropological features, and the ability to animate armor into Warriors to serve as the front line. This has been documented in the 8th Compendium and QA's own survey of the Mursaat. As the inheritors of Margonites religion and culture, we should also be aware that they would worship the same God.

Why did the Mursaat want the Scepter of Orr?

To prevent the Titan army from falling into their enemies' hands. If the Scepter is found, then that means the Flameseeker prophecies are coming true. It is safe to say that the Mursaat would have kept the Scepter for themselves, perhaps even using it to usurp domination of Tyria (world) from the 5 Gods.

Why were the Mursaat guarding the Door of Komalie against the heroes of Tyria?

The Heroes of Tyria were revealed to be Chosen, and thus escaped the vigilance of the white mantle. This fact was brought to our attention by Vizier Kilbron, who knew of this beforehand and used us to destroy the mursaat.
By guarding the Door of Komalie, the Mursaat sought to keep their superweapon safe from being used/destroyed by their enemies until they could properly control it themselves with the scepter.
Also, by keeping the soul batteries charged with the blood of the chosen, they were slowly eliminating the very people mentioned in the Flameseeker Prophecies that would destroy them.

Why would Glint ask us to release, then defeat the titans?

To use the Titans against the mursaat. The southern Shiverpeaks show the remains of the mursaat in the face of the overwhelming Titan invasion. Defeating the Titan invasion was simply an unfortunate side effect of destroying the mursaat.

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Quintus Antonius

27-09-2006, 15:00

I have a slightly different theory regarding Abaddon.

Is it possible he was banished for attempting to set himself up as the only god? Or perhaps he tried to reveal some secret the gods were hiding? Then there is also the possibility he was just one badass and did it for the heck of it.

One thing that disturbs me is that everytime something new is told to us, we suddenly relate it to the Mursaat, when evidence doesn't really point that way. Although I think you wrote a very nice paper, and actually used evidence to support your hypothesis, I think we are making stipulations about the Mursaat that just aren't true (ie, making stretches). It is important to remember that there are many other plausible races the Mursaat could have been: The Seekers, the Mage Lords, one of the hundreds of others who tried to Ascend and failed or just never were heard from again.

Also, how do the Seers factor into this?

Another thing, the Scepter of Orr wasn't just found lying about in the jungle, it was in a tomb, near the Krytan Royal Family's. That has to count for something.

Finally, how does the Lich factor into this? We can't just dismiss him and his actions against the White Mantle and Mursaat. It was quite obviously planned that he attacked these two groups.

Sentential

27-09-2006, 15:35

Neither Dhumm or Menzine are "dead". Infact if you recall Dhumm made an appearence during the 4th of july celebration while bringing minions of *technically* abadon.

* Why was Abaddon jailed?
* Where is Dhuum?
* Are the Margonites the predecessors of the Mursaat?
* Why did the Mursaat want the Scepter of Orr?
* Why were the Mursaat guarding the Door of Komalie against the heroes of Tyria?
* Why would Glint ask us to release, then defeat the titans?

Ill try and take a stab at this based on what I know. Most likely and according to the booklets, Abaddon much like promethesius <sp?> brought the forbidden arts (magic) to the people outside the Rifts.

They go into large amounts of detail where magic was universal and existed prior to the induction of the 5 tyrian gods. It also says that they sealed this magic within the blood stone then shattered it thus seperating the magic classes from one another.

The blood stone has something to do with the banishment of Abaddon in the realm of torment. My guess is the following:

Dhumm is the cruel old god of death/pestilence (replaced by Grenth, newest of the 5 gods)
Menzine is the old god of war (replaced by Balthazar)
Abaddon is the origional god of chaos (replaced by Lyssa)

They also make several references that these old gods are somehow related ot the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. ie Dhumm is Death, Menzine is War, Abaddon is chaos/conquest. The only one that is missing is "famine" which could be introduced later.

In addition to this reference these three outcast gods are always seen together as their minions are always seen together in the same zones.

For example:

The Coldfire Drakes look a great deal alike to Menzine's shadow army
The necrid horsmen are direct minions of Dhumm
While it isnt implied directally the Terrorweb Dryders, especially the "Grasps Of Darkness" are tied directally to Abaddon.

Not only this but in the second trailer released for nightfall they show a huuuuge shadow army troll that is common in FoW in what appears to be the gate to the realm of torment. These same mobs that you find invading the underworld are also present in ToPK.

Also they make specific reference in nightfall that "the time of the new gods is at an end". Most likely this scenerio implies that the old gods have decided to ban together to defeat the new gods. Most likely this is the Apocalypse that has been mentioned many times.

As for the mursaat they are more of a neutral power. If anything they would be considered good not evil. They only view humans with contempt (specifically non white mantle) because they have forseen that mankind will bring the Apocalypse by ultimately destroying the 5 new gods.

mrmango

27-09-2006, 21:31

Ok, first of all Sentenial, it is Menzies, not Mezine. Secondly, the fact about Menzies being an old god, and same for Abbadon, lacks evidence. Furthermore, how are the necrid horseymanys "direct minions"? Same for the Dryders and Abbadon.
For the Mursaat, neutral powers can't be happy about the Apocalypse unless they are going to withstand it, which you don't mension. I think the KISS (Keep it simple stupid) applies. =D

I got a few questions, the skeleton army (FoW) is or is not related to the Tyrian undead? Are the (ToPK) demons (also the ones in the DF and in Nightfall) related to either of the above?

If the demons aren't related to undead or skeleton army, then perhaps they are somewhat allied with Menzies' shadow army? Or are they 4 different and independant forces?

ShadowSword

27-09-2006, 23:03

Am I missing something? Margonites Abaddon followers? What?

Realm of Torment? Pit in UW? What says that?

Agree wit hthe Dhuum destroyed personally. The Mursaat just wanted to make sure the Titans remained locked forever which is why they wanter the Sceptre. Also wh ythey defended the door. Mursaat culture REVOLVES around keepign the Titans locked.

Ranger Nietzsche

28-09-2006, 00:04

Hmm

The Mursaat keep the door closed because Glint said (flameseeker prophecies) whatever is behind it will destroy them all.

Glint asked us to open the door because the Titans are the only things capable of destroying the mursaat.

They also make several references that these old gods are somehow related ot the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. ie Dhumm is Death, Menzine is War, Abaddon is chaos/conquest. The only one that is missing is "famine" which could be introduced later.

Where is this reference? the only one i could find was in the 4 Riders of Dhuum: named , comically, Ghozer Dhuum, Kazhad Dhuum, Madruk Dhuum and Thul Za Dhuum. These riders have no connection with Menzies or Abaddon.

Quintus Antonius

28-09-2006, 00:21

Well, so far as we know. It may be revealed there is a connection between Abaddon and Dhuum, which, honestly, I still believe, as all that evidence we collected doesn't just disappear because the guy's name is Abaddon now.

False Visage

28-09-2006, 03:26

I have never gotten far in the Underworld, but is the place where the Realm of Torment supposed to be, close to the Reaper who starts the Rider quest?

Tuor Son Of Huor

28-09-2006, 03:43

Am I missing something? Margonites Abaddon followers? What?

I've quoted the source for this information. I was pleased by its revelation tbh :D

Realm of Torment? Pit in UW? What says that?

I thought i had included this in the Facts section: The reaper of the bone pits explains where and what the Realm of Torment is during the Quest: Imprisoned Spirits.

Mursaat culture REVOLVES around keepign the Titans locked.

This is a bit unsubstantiated, but I'd like to see why their culture "Revolves" around it if you can provide evidence

Quintus Antonius

28-09-2006, 04:15

I wouldn't say Mursaat culture revolves around the Door, I'd say that they hav devouted a substantial amount of their military to guarding it.

Apu

28-09-2006, 05:58

I tough that menzies was just the jealous brother of Balthazar, since when is he a god? or was? :S Another thing i would like to mention is that are u sure that Dhuum whas the one that unleashed the Grasps that time? where did it said that? By Sentential Infact if you recall Dhumm made an appearence during the 4th of july celebration while bringing minions of *technically* abadon.

Lady Eleni

28-09-2006, 06:13

It was actually a Banished Dream Rider with an elementalists boss aura titled "The Fury" that unleashed the grasps during the Dragon Festival. It most certainly was not Dhuum incarnate.

Apu

28-09-2006, 07:41

It was actually a Banished Dream Rider with an elementalists boss aura titled "The Fury" that unleashed the grasps during the Dragon Festival. It most certainly was not Dhuum incarnate.

Thats wut i recalled, thanks :)

ShadowSword

28-09-2006, 09:33

My reaso nfor saying it revolves around it was that every thing they have done in the whole story concerned it and also the theory that was on few threads ago that the Mursaat made themselves te Guardians of the Door. Thye attacked the Charr (whose Gods were the Titans and would no doubt free them given the chance), they stopped the Lich, they've build fortresses around the door, the highest concentration of Mursaat we've seen is around thta door, they've even inifiltrated human society to find sacrifices to power the door. I personally can't imagine Mursaat ever doign anything normal like making houses or a normal society, so I'd sa ytheir whole purpose in life was to block that door.

Santax

28-09-2006, 17:17

Another thing, the Scepter of Orr wasn't just found lying about in the jungle, it was in a tomb, near the Krytan Royal Family's. That has to count for something.
I agree. It did belong to King Reza of Orr, after all. Something had somehow gone to the depths of the ocean to King Reza's corpse, and then moved it to those of the royal family of Kryta (who incidentally share the same lineage as King Doric, who ruled from Lion's Arch).

And I'm still not convinced there is no Abbadon-Dhuum connection. The presence of Terrorweb Dryders and Banished Dream Riders, for one. The second being that the Realm of Torment is in the Underworld. It's more plausible that Dhuum has been at least supporting Abbadon in some way than not.

dfscott

28-09-2006, 18:13

I tough that menzies was just the jealous brother of Balthazar, since when is he a god? or was? :S Another thing i would like to mention is that are u sure that Dhuum whas the one that unleashed the Grasps that time? where did it said that? By Sentential

Half-brother, if you want to nit-pick. :wink:

But it is somewhat unclear what his true status is -- he's referred to as the Lord of Destruction, but I'm not sure if it's ever explicitly said whether he is a god, demi-god, or simply a very powerful anti-hero (like the Lich Lord).

Quintus Antonius

28-09-2006, 18:17

I want to know how you can be the brother of a god and not be a god yourself? Unless, of course, the gods became gods through a process which anyone can recreate (as I suggested in the Odran Code).

teh Monkeys

28-09-2006, 18:40

Or one of menzies' 'parents' had sex with a mortal, like that horny bugger we know as Zeus. :p

Why was Abaddon jailed?

After the 5 Gods left Arah, and placed the bloodstones in the Caldera of the Volcano, they left the Mortal Realm and went into the Rifts. There is no mention on whether Abaddon himself went into the rifts with the other Gods.
Abaddon seized this oppertunity to claim the mastery of Magic by retrieving the bloodstones. He did this by erupting the volcano.
Soon after, he used his powers to grant the margonites tremendous power through "horrific transformations". *

The eruption of Abbadon's mouth, and thus the scattering of the bloodstones, coincides with the first guild wars. Estimated date of eruption is somewhere inbetween 900 AE and 1013 AE. The Margonite war took place around exodus, or even earlier

Timeline: 1
Conjecture: 0

Why did the Mursaat want the Scepter of Orr?

dododo blablabal etc.

Why were the Mursaat guarding the Door of Komalie against the heroes of Tyria?

etc. etc. blabla

The Mursaat guarded the door with their life, because according to the prophecies, the flameseeker and the titans would destroy them. The end.

Tuor Son Of Huor

28-09-2006, 20:43

The eruption of Abbadon's mouth, and thus the scattering of the bloodstones, coincides with the first guild wars. Estimated date of eruption is somewhere inbetween 900 AE and 1013 AE.

Very Wrong. Reread the lore (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bloodstone). The volcano erupted 100 years AFTER the exodus.

The Margonite war took place around exodus, or even earlier

Once again Very Wrong. Reread my evidence. Kormir and the Prerelease NF CD BOTH say that the margonites waged war and were defeated in northern elona and the crystal desert 1000 years ago. Since present day is 1072AE that would place the margonite war 70 years AFTER the exodus.

this would mean that the eruption of "abaddon's mouth" took place 30 years after the margonite war. If we take the margonite war to last for as long as a "Guild War" then the eruption of the volcano and the margonite army would be contemporary. At worst they would be 30 years apart.

Timeline: 1
Conjecture: 0

This means less than nothing to me. Your arguments have no basis in fact and are unfortunately a waste of space. Try again.

Sir Jack

28-09-2006, 21:53

Are the Margonites the predecessors of the Mursaat?

The Margonites are the best candidates to be the predecessors of the Mursaat because of their Anthropological features, and the ability to animate armor into Warriors to serve as the front line. This has been documented in the 8th Compendium and QA's own survey of the Mursaat. As the inheritors of Margonites religion and culture, we should also be aware that they would worship the same God.

I wouldn't be too sure. We don't know what "animate armors" means. If anything, it would be more like the Forgotten, who animate leftover Mursaat armors in the desert, rather then the Mursaat animating lifeless pieces of "Jade". Just a quick note, what if the Mursaat invaded the Jade Sea, wouldn't they be able to make a freaking huge arrmy? <.< Though it's different kinds of Jade by colour...

Quintus Antonius

28-09-2006, 22:01

This means less than nothing to me. Your arguments have no basis in fact and are unfortunately a waste of space. Try again.

Keep it civil, Tuor... It's okay to disprove someone's posts, it is not alright to attack them for it.

And teh Monkeys, if you are going to quote, please quote properly so you do not offend people.

Robot Stalin

28-09-2006, 22:45

Very Wrong. Reread the lore (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bloodstone). The volcano erupted 100 years AFTER the exodus.

I suggest you reread your lore. I would rather take my information from an official source such as the manuscripts or the gw website, than from some dubious fansite.

Over the next hundred years, the human kingdoms prospered. Powerful groups grew up within each nation. These were known as guilds. It was these groups, these guilds, that held the real power in Tyria. Though there were kings and organizations that made the laws and regulated the land, it was the guilds that enforced these laws—or didn’t—as they saw fit. As these guilds grew, their influence began to overlap.

As is ever the case with peace, it once again came to an end when the volcano erupted, spitting ou the five stones and scattering them across Tyria. The magic they embodied seeped into the lands around them. Though the Bloodstones, as they are called, have never been reunited, the power that they possess was enough to reignite the desire for power in the hears of men.

The struggle for power commenced, and again war broke out. This time, though, the humans were not united. The guilds of the three most influencial kingdoms on the continent battled eachother for supremacy. The kingds of Ascalon, Kryta and Orr were not powerful enough to stop the conflict, for the armies of the guilds were even more powerful than those of their home nations.

The GUILD WARS raged for decades, fuelled by the desire for power and the influence of the Bloodstones.

The lore simply states that the human kingdoms prospered a century after exodus. There is no mention of guildwiki's blatant bs about the bloodstones being scattered across Tyria a century after exodus. It makes a boatload more sense that the bloodstones were scattered shortly before the guild wars, causing all sorts of hell and putting the "desire for power into the hearts of men" and causing wars, than in a time of peace and porsperity.

I thought it looked stupid to post the entire quote if I was going to rebut only a fraction of the story.

Sorry to drag this offtopic, Quintus.

Tuor Son Of Huor

29-09-2006, 22:02

I will concede that the Volcano didnt erupt as guild wiki says until I can ascertain where their information was taken from.

I didnt build any of my other observations on that information, so you can go ahead and read the rest of the Treatise now.

Laibeus Lord

30-09-2006, 08:41

#2
The Abaddon worshipping-Margonites waged a war a thousand years ago against the worshippers of the 5 Gods in the Northern Plains of Elona. They were boosted by "horrific transformations" that gave them powers. i.e wings, many eyes, and the ability to animate suits of armor, i.e the enchanted.
The Margonites were defeated, and Abaddon was imprisoned in the RoT.
This would have occurred around 70AE (mouvelian calendar)

Nope, it's impossible to have happened on 70AE. That war created the "Crystal Desert". There is already a Crystal Desert by 100 BE.

Reading the rest of your post, it seems that everything is revolving around your 70AE date. Since it's impossible to have happened in 70AE, I won't comment on the rest ;)

Unless, of course, the gods became gods through a process which anyone can recreate (as I suggested in the Odran Code).

Hmm... I'll find that Odran code hehe.... can be useful in my other thread "Lord Odran could be Abaddon" hehe :p

Apu

07-10-2006, 19:03

By Quintus Antonious
I want to know how you can be the brother of a god and not be a god yourself? Unless, of course, the gods became gods through a process which anyone can recreate (as I suggested in the Odran Code).

We know hes a half-brother as says here (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Menzies) so hes is not necesary a god. Wut does mythology says bout gods half-brothers? Menzies is the Lord of Destruction; a malicious dark entity opposing Balthazar and bent on taking control of the Fissure of Woe. He employs an army of darkness called the Shadow Army. In an ironic twist inspired by Greek Mythology, he is also Balthazar's half-brother. It is unclear if Menzies is himself a full-fledged god or some lesser entity.
How he became his half-brother is uncertain for us for now or atleast for me cause i havent found any history on that.

Have a nice day everyone.

BTW. I love "The Odran Code" and i agree with it a LOT :)

Quintus Antonius

09-10-2006, 14:21

Well, keep in mind the example of Hercules. He was techinically a god, but because he lost his power, he was a mortal until he did all those deeds and accepted godhood.

Or look at the Elder Scrolls. The Aedra and Tribunal weren't originally gods, but became gods through a process (as I suggested in the Odran Code).

So, to me, it seems concievable that Menzies may not be a full-fledged god. For all we know, he is a rogue Mursaat (I don't believe that, but just wanted to give an off the wall example).

Minionman

09-10-2006, 14:59

Using timelines seems a bit iffy for some of this, since the game manual timelines contradict each other.

Anyway, from the descriptions people gave, it does seem like margonites are the best chance for mursaat ancestry. It may or may not mean that mursaat still worship abaddon, but it does give a reason for Glint to describe them as a "terrible and fearful race", plus gives some sort of explanation besides appearing out of nowhere. I'm sure lots of people are hoping for

Renegade Returns

09-10-2006, 15:20

Originally Posten by Tuor Sun of Huor Are the Margonites the predecessors of the Mursaat?

This is believable since the description on guildwiki about the Margonites and the Mursaat seems identical. However it might be that Anet is just reskinning the Margonites with the Mursaat skin like they do oh so many times.

Tuor Son Of Huor

10-10-2006, 03:39

Nope, it's impossible to have happened on 70AE. That war created the "Crystal Desert". There is already a Crystal Desert by 100 BE.

As I stated initially: I arrived at the date of 70AE by doing simple mathematics: present day is 1072AE, and Kormir says the Margonite war was "a thousand years ago". 1072-1000 = 72AE.

I have been searching for any mention of the Crystal Desert existing before 100BE and havent found one; can u please cite your source?

Reading the rest of your post, it seems that everything is revolving around your 70AE date. Since it's impossible to have happened in 70AE, I won't comment on the rest ;)

Actually, it *doesnt* revolve around the 70AE. Its a shame that you've decided to skim thru the paper as opposed to truly read it.

Hmm... I'll find that Odran code hehe.... can be useful in my other thread "Lord Odran could be Abaddon" hehe :p

/sigh Lord Odran cannot be Abaddon for reasons I mentioned in your thread.

---------------

Mularc Templare

10-10-2006, 12:06

Nice work on the Tretise. Was an interesting read.

I however, disagree with the theory that the Mursaat and Margonites are the same forces. However, I think it is interesting about the info of how the Margonites came about (I still hold that they may be the anscestors of the Luxons by the way - it is unlikely that a nomadic civilisation such as them all came to an area to attempt a single goal....but thats off topic...)

It is somewhat assumed that Abbadon granted the "transformations" to the Margonites, causing them to appear as they do now. I know it may be grasping at straws, but who's to say that another deity didn't do the same thing to the Mursaat?

His army was defeated, and he was sealed away. Abbadon may not have actually suffered any "damage" at all - because his followers did not have the "faith" in which to sustain him, he was forced into the Realm of Torment (RoT).
Another point, which again seems logical to me - if you wanted to find the meanest, evilest forces in the multi-verse, where would you go? Abbadon may have actually gone to the RoT voluntarily. Exile can be self imposed.

As for the location of the RoT, this may actually tie in with the circulating rumor of the new god's area - it could be an area on the fringe of Lyssa's realm - Torment is usually reffered to as a psychological thing.

Okay, enough rambling. I know there will be some of this which will make absolutely no sense to others, but I've just spoken my mind.

Mularc

Tuor Son Of Huor

10-10-2006, 17:01

Finally, intelligent discourse!

It is somewhat assumed that Abbadon granted the "transformations" to the Margonites, causing them to appear as they do now.

It isnt assumption - I directly quoted the Lore on the Nighfall Bonus CD. An old adage comes to mind about assuming ;)

because his followers did not have the "faith" in which to sustain him, he was forced into the Realm of Torment (RoT).

You've been a Black and White, player, eh? :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Another point, which again seems logical to me - if you wanted to find the meanest, evilest forces in the multi-verse, where would you go? Abbadon may have actually gone to the RoT voluntarily. Exile can be self imposed.

I enjoyed this thought - but once again, the information we have clearly says that Abaddon was imprisoned and his name was erased.

As for the location of the RoT, this may actually tie in with the circulating rumor of the new god's area - it could be an area on the fringe of Lyssa's realm - Torment is usually reffered to as a psychological thing.

The Realm of Torment is known to be an area of the underworld - much the same way Tartarus was the area of Hades where the wicked went, while the Heroes went to the Elysian Fields. But we *will* finally be able to go there; so as such, it is a new realm.

Laibeus Lord

18-10-2006, 16:57

As I stated initially: I arrived at the date of 70AE by doing simple mathematics: present day is 1072AE, and Kormir says the Margonite war was "a thousand years ago". 1072-1000 = 72AE.

I have been searching for any mention of the Crystal Desert existing before 100BE and havent found one; can u please cite your source?

The manuscripts. I don't have mine right now, I'm at the office still. But in the American version of the GWP manuscript, the Forgotten moved to a place which we now call the Crystal Desert.

Actually, it *doesnt* revolve around the 70AE. Its a shame that you've decided to skim thru the paper as opposed to truly read it.

Heh, I read it word-by-word, and the way I understood it is it's revolving around that. I think there's a striking difference between "the way I understood it" vs "truly read(ing) it".

/sigh Lord Odran cannot be Abaddon for reasons I mentioned in your thread.

I read all the replies. The replies concentrated on one thing.. "Lord Odran can't be Abaddon because Abaddon existed years before Lord Odran" when I repeated again and again that Lord Odran discovered how to manipulate time.

---

Now to add...

I think the Margonites are back or are still alive and we'll meet them in Elona. I just noticed that they're an integral part of Abaddon's world/plans/forces.

Tuor Son Of Huor

19-10-2006, 03:38

I read all the replies. The replies concentrated on one thing.. "Lord Odran can't be Abaddon because Abaddon existed years before Lord Odran" when I repeated again and again that Lord Odran discovered how to manipulate time.

I also cited the manuscripts which specifically said that he was torn apart by the spirits during his last trip into the rift. Time Travel or not, if you die during time travel, you're travelling days are over.

Quintus Antonius

19-10-2006, 04:25

Well, we also have to take into account that the Manuscripts describe the Rift as touching everywhere and everywhen. However, the Rift itself obviously has it's own measurement of time. So, like Tuor said, you die in the Rift, you die everywhere, everywhen. Odran was definitely just a mortal who got woodchippered by the spirits.

Drec Sutal

19-10-2006, 05:48

Hrm, why was Abaddon Banished. I seriously doubt he tried to set himself up as the only God with the other five standing around watching, as even 5 banishing one seems to be failing at this point...

So what did he do? Well obviously we don't know. One possibility is that he tried to usurp Dwayna as the leader of the Pantheon. Perhaps the others didn't think that was a good idea, and that he was safer in the RoT. Another possibility is that he wasn't happy with his number of followers so he tried to take more, by force. One of my theories is that he was the God of Elementalists (Yes, I know that 4 of the 5 are the Gods of one of the elements, but why is ele the only one broken up, and why is ele the only core class with no God?)... maybe there weren't enough, or maybe he wasn't happy with even a fair share. My favorite idea, though, is that Abaddon simply disagreed about something major that the other Gods agreed on. What, you ask? Simple - the exodus. The other five Gods couldn't leave one behind, as that would give him plenty of time to set himself up as the only God. The Pantheon wanted to step off and leave the world to its will, Abaddon wanted to keep control, insuring greater power and such. Since they couldn't make him commit to the Exodus but were committed to it themselves, they *made* him leave.

Quintus Antonius

19-10-2006, 05:55

The elementists have no god, nor will they ever have only one patron god. End of story. They draw their power from the realms of every god. No mystery there at all.

Other than that, we can't confirm or deny any speculations right now. To me, it seems like Abaddon rebelled in some way against the gods. The nature of that rebellion is unknown, if true at all. We'll find out in 9 days.

KuruSeed

19-10-2006, 06:04

Elementalists might have strong ties to Lyssa, since she seems tied to energy, and their primary attribute is Energy Storage. It could also explain why female elementalists dress in such...revealing clothing.

Drec Sutal

19-10-2006, 06:05

How would we know if elementalists ever had one God? All mention of Abaddon was erased, so why not have them under Abaddon before?

Why is Dwayna the Goddess of air? None of the other skills from Dwayna do air damage, smiting prayers do fire damage if they do any ele damage!

Ok, Grenth makes sense as the God of Cold, but *only* because some spells do cold damage. But otherwise none of the water spells are related in any way to death or the exchange of life - his natural domain.

I could see Balthazar, as God of War, causing fire damage... but then I could see him doing any kind of damage, what with being the God of War and all.

And Melandru as Goddess of Earth? The dirt isn't alive, and this isn't plant or meat type damage, it's rocks and such. The earth spells specifically deal with things that are in no way alive, and I don't see why they fall under the Goddess of Nature.

But Abaddon.... I could see him being set up as God of the Elements, something which GW universe is notably *lacking*... nobody has mastery over the land and the climate, though most other roles are fulfilled. I could totally see Abaddon's role being exactly that... that is where I see a hole in the roles of the Gods, and (once again) it would give each core class its own God...

Note: Lyssa is the only God *not* related to an elementalist line so I'm not seeing her as the God of the elementalists.

KuruSeed

19-10-2006, 06:08

Lyssa is the only God *not* related to an elementalist line so I'm not seeing her as the God of the elementalists.

I said strong ties, not their god.

Quintus Antonius

19-10-2006, 06:18

Abaddon holds a scyche and so far, the only people associated with him have been dervishes and paragons (ie Margonite paragon), not so coincidently, the two classes that happen to be introduced in Nightfall.

Dwayna represents the sphere of "heaven", which is associated with air. Grenth represents the sphere of "death", which is cold. Balthazar represents the sphere of "battle" and "passion", which are both represented by fire. Melandru represents the sphere of "earth", dirt = earth, come on now. Lyssa represents the sphere of "chaos" and "illusion", which is why chaos damage is associated with her.

It goes deeper than that, but those are the basic fundamental principles of each god. They do not condradict any information known about the gods, nor do they really allow room for Abaddon.

Let's look at the real information we are given, not the speculative information.

Whenever ANet releases new lore, automatically everyone goes "ZOMG Mursaat!!!!" and "ZOMG Ele GOD!!!!!". When evidence clearly contradicts these statements.

Drec Sutal

19-10-2006, 06:22

Laibeus Lord

19-10-2006, 06:24

I also cited the manuscripts which specifically said that he was torn apart by the spirits during his last trip into the rift. Time Travel or not, if you die during time travel, you're travelling days are over.

I replied to that and my original post I explicitly stated and explained that "he was killed". Bah... just read my OP again, everything was explained right at the beginning that most of the replies where already answered before even posted.

NeoSaber

19-10-2006, 07:43

I don't see any evidence contradicting Abaddon as the god of elementalists. I can see it not being true, but seriously why is the ele the only one without a class, and I *know* abaddon wasn't only around in Elona, so why would he be patron God of a class that only exists in Elona to the exclusion of Tyria and Cantha!

Basically, Abaddon has to be a God outside Elona, so he needs to be patron God of a class outside Elona.

That plus I still say Melandru's domain probably doesn't include rocks. She's the God of Nature, not *the* earth.

Hmm... There might be some circumstantial evidence that he was the god of elementalists. The Titans are basically spirits that harness the elements to create physical forms. If they are connected to Abaddon, it could imply that the elements were Abaddon's domain. He might have been a god of the elements that became twisted and corrupt, leading to his banishment and the splitting of his domain among the other gods.

Then again, the Titans could just be corrupting everything they come into contact with, elements and all, because Abaddon is a god of destruction. Their use of the elements might have been coincidence. :undecided:

Sir Jack

19-10-2006, 08:35

I don't see any evidence contradicting Abaddon as the god of elementalists. I can see it not being true, but seriously why is the ele the only one without a class, and I *know* abaddon wasn't only around in Elona, so why would he be patron God of a class that only exists in Elona to the exclusion of Tyria and Cantha!

Basically, Abaddon has to be a God outside Elona, so he needs to be patron God of a class outside Elona.

That plus I still say Melandru's domain probably doesn't include rocks. She's the God of Nature, not *the* earth.

Melandru's domain is the Earth. Including rocks, water trees, animals and everything assosiated with Nature. Also, Plant-like creatures such as Thorn Stalkers deal Earth damage as default attack, suggesting Earth Damage is more then rock damage alone. Eles use rocks in their damage because, well, guess what hits you hardest, 1 bigass rock or a pile of leaves...

Apu

20-10-2006, 07:38

The elemental class has a god for each school.

Water Magic, cold magic- Grenth
Fire- Balthazar
Earth- Melandru
Air- Dwayna

QA already told this.

And i pretty sure that Paragorns worship Dwayna and Balthazar.
Can anyone point out who the Dervishes worship? Anyhow i think this is way off topic.

Have a nice day.

Seyfert

20-10-2006, 07:51

Can anyone point out who the Dervishes worship?

just using logic wouldn't they worship all gods I mean they transform into the avatar of every god so it stands to reason they worship them all right?

Quintus Antonius

20-10-2006, 14:24

You don't even need logic to figure it out, as it is mentioned in-game and in several official sources. The "armor" (which is actually robes) that the dervish wear are actually representative of each god. I believe that information comes from the preview pack.

False Visage

20-10-2006, 15:42

I've always seen it as the nature of Elementalists magic is so varied that they need to worship all of the gods for it. I mean, they have Enchantments to protect, spells to kill, hexes and other kinds of odd abilities. Their control over magic is in terms of application, certainly the broadest in Guild Wars.

Aside from this is so far, we've seen everything that Abbadon affects becomes warped. But, there's nothing wrong with my Elementalist and she certainly hasn't sprouted any extra appendages or the such.

Drec Sutal

20-10-2006, 16:23

Hrm... maybe the problem is that nobody wants to have worshiped Abaddon? "Who would want to play ele, they worshiped the evil god!"

I really don't think Abaddon was always evil (or that Abaddon was always his name). People keep telling me "elementalists already have a God, one for each element!" I know this. What I'm saying is that the *reason* for this isn't that it was always that way, but that the God they had been worshiping turned evil and was erased from history.

Still nobody has addressed the point of who worshiped Abaddon. *someone* had to... if the dervish worships the entire Pantheon and the paragon worship Dwayna and Balthazar... Seriously, what profession worldwide worshiped Abaddon?

My theory has now somewhat shifted to say that Abaddon was once in harmony with the other Gods, then went insane or something in the Mists and *then* he became a dark/evil God, who the other 5 eventually had to banish. The elementalists were outcast for a short time then were taken in by the God closest to them by element.

Quintus Antonius

20-10-2006, 17:13

I'd like to point out one major flaw in your theory. You are assuming Abaddon was not banished until after the sealing of the Bloodstones. If he was banished even ten seconds before the creation of the Bloodstones, then there were no professions since all magic was available to everyone.

There simply doesn't need to be a profession that worshipped Abaddon.

JeanDeathwish

21-10-2006, 03:01

Note: Lyssa is the only God *not* related to an elementalist line so I'm not seeing her as the God of the elementalists.

Lyssa is the god related to Energy Storage. Kneel infront of her and she will show you this.

Tuor Son Of Huor

22-10-2006, 06:25

:::NEWS FLASH:::

Okay, i have a proclivity for looking at the "other" guild wars wiki on the web; and since it was announced in the GW Insider that there is a Prophecies hero and a Factions hero that are available for unlocking by owners of the 2 chapters, i wanted to find out who they were.

The Tyrian Hero is VERY interesting:

Olias is a Necromancer hero available in the Nightfall Campaign.

He is a former White Mantle who, after a meeting in the Temple of the Ages, decided to serve as Grenth's executioner. He came to Elona to help fighting the outcast god who's trying to rise again and who challenges Grenth's reign over the realms of the dead.

Possessed Necromancer

"Grenth lives! But you must die!"

I donot know what the source is, but it looks very credible to me. So it would seem that we now know part of Abaddon's plans = he wants Dhuum's place, or.....Dhuum Dhuuum Dhuuumm = he *is* Dhuum.

Seyfert

22-10-2006, 06:28

that is indeed further evidence that he may be Dhuum

Quintus Antonius

22-10-2006, 14:53

Zaxares

23-10-2006, 03:16

The evidence already points to Dhuum. Abaddon, although official, has less evidence to support him than Dhuum, however, we know it's Abaddon now. Yet, it is impossible and irresponsible to simply throw out all that evidence pointing to Dhuum, which suggests Abaddon may be Dhuum. Very confusing.

Unless we're interpreting that Hero's description wrong. Perhaps Abbadon seeks to overthrow the entire existing pantheon, and in that sense, he threatens to consume Grenth's realm along with all of existence.

Tuor Son Of Huor

31-10-2006, 18:51

SPOILER!!

Well, it has been revealed that Abaddon, Dhuum and Menzies are all in cahoots. Dhuum wages war in the UW on behalf of abaddon, as does Menzies. Abaddon, meanwhile, used Shiro and the Lich+Titans to provide souls for his army.

So if thats the case, then that would mean that the Mursaat were actually "good" - in the sense that they were Anti-Abaddon, that is.

Benovolent Zephyr

31-10-2006, 23:17

I know this is from a perhaps unorthadox source but guildwiki says that Abbadon is the "Exiled former god of water and knowledge." http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Gods_of_Tyria

and from the concept art book for nightfall ce you do see a very squid like Abbadon, sorry I don't have a scanner but to the exent of the imagery I am sure that it was a depiction of abbadon. He had the bottom half of many tentcales and from the art presented I think it was drawn for an area under water and the movement of the lines and other physics of the painting [at least in my opinion assures this]. My point is that GuildWiki's statement might be true because of the concept art. However it is only concept art and there are many creatures in Tyria that resemble Abbadon.

Quintus Antonius

31-10-2006, 23:50

So the Abadhuumenzies theory was more or less right! Huzzah! And shame on you ANet for stealing our work (but thanks, it's really flattering...) lol

terakhan

01-11-2006, 02:31

The problem I see, Abaddon could not have used the power of the bloodstones AFTER the eruption to empower the Margonites. The desert has been the way it was for a long time, centuries at least. The eruption and the start of the guild wars was less than 50 years ago.

Quintus Antonius

01-11-2006, 03:48

I believe the empowering of the Margonites happened about a thousand years ago, so when the Bloodstones erupted, they were already empowered.

Tuor Son Of Huor

01-11-2006, 03:58

Another thing, the Scepter of Orr wasn't just found lying about in the jungle, it was in a tomb, near the Krytan Royal Family's. That has to count for something.

Finally, how does the Lich factor into this? We can't just dismiss him and his actions against the White Mantle and Mursaat. It was quite obviously planned that he attacked these two groups.

Ask and ye shall recieve!

More questions:

Who originally controlled the scepter of Orr?? who has it now? Paper-writing-time :D

The problem I see, Abaddon could not have used the power of the bloodstones AFTER the eruption to empower the Margonites. The desert has been the way it was for a long time, centuries at least. The eruption and the start of the guild wars was less than 50 years ago.

Earlier in this thread, I tried to clear up this "discrepancy" in the GW lore. You see, it s a simple matter of understanding english:

I am going to revive the discussion of when exactly the bloodstones erupted, because it answers Terakhan's concerns:

Over the next hundred years, the human kingdoms prospered. Powerful groups grew up within each nation. These were known as guilds. It was these groups, these guilds, that held the real power in Tyria. Though there were kings and organizations that made the laws and regulated the land, it was the guilds that enforced these laws—or didn’t—as they saw fit. As these guilds grew, their influence began to overlap.

As is ever the case with peace, it once again came to an end when the volcano erupted, spitting ou the five stones and scattering them across Tyria. The magic they embodied seeped into the lands around them. Though the Bloodstones, as they are called, have never been reunited, the power that they possess was enough to reignite the desire for power in the hears of men.

The struggle for power commenced, and again war broke out. This time, though, the humans were not united. The guilds of the three most influencial kingdoms on the continent battled eachother for supremacy. The kingds of Ascalon, Kryta and Orr were not powerful enough to stop the conflict, for the armies of the guilds were even more powerful than those of their home nations.

The GUILD WARS raged for decades, fuelled by the desire for power and the influence of the Bloodstones.

So, here's a bullet form summary of what the manuscript above says:

1. Exodus
2. 100 years of peace
3. Peace ends and bloodstones are spit out from Abaddon's mouth.
4. Guild wars start.

So: It is now FACT that the volcano erupted 100 years after the exodus. Direct from manuscripts and revealed through a 4th grade understanding of the english language.

In response to Robert Stalin (who has since been banned) and cited this as "evidence" that the bloodstones erupted AFTER the guild wars began, i say: Learn to Read. (Sorry quint, i'll keep it civil from now on)

terakhan

02-11-2006, 05:14

Abaddon seized this oppertunity to claim the mastery of Magic by retrieving the bloodstones. He did this by erupting the volcano.
Soon after, he used his powers to grant the margonites tremendous power through "horrific transformations".

The problem I see, Abaddon could not have used the power of the bloodstones AFTER the eruption to empower the Margonites. The desert has been the way it was for a long time, centuries at least. The eruption and the start of the guild wars was less than 50 years ago.

Here is the timeline from guildwars.com:
1072 AE Present day
1070 AE Guild Wars end
1070 AE Charr invade human kingdoms
1013 AE Guild Wars begin
300 AE Kryta becomes a colony
221 AE Cantha begins trading with Tyria
174 AE Serpents leave the world of men
2 AE Orr becomes an independent nation
1 BE Gods give magic to races of Tyria
100 BE High-planes human settlements become known as Ascalon
205 BE Humans appear on Tyrian continent

#2
The Abaddon worshipping-Margonites waged a war a thousand years ago against the worshippers of the 5 Gods in the Northern Plains of Elona. They were boosted by "horrific transformations" that gave them powers. i.e wings, many eyes, and the ability to animate suits of armor, i.e the enchanted.
The Margonites were defeated, and Abaddon was imprisoned in the RoT.
This would have occurred around 70AE (mouvelian calendar)

So, the stones were blasted back into the world between 100 AE and 1013 AE, while Abaddon was defeated circa 70AE after already having empowered his followers.

Tuor Son Of Huor

02-11-2006, 13:38

Here is the timeline from guildwars.com:
1072 AE Present day
1070 AE Guild Wars end
1070 AE Charr invade human kingdoms
1013 AE Guild Wars begin
300 AE Kryta becomes a colony
221 AE Cantha begins trading with Tyria
174 AE Serpents leave the world of men
2 AE Orr becomes an independent nation
1 BE Gods give magic to races of Tyria
100 BE High-planes human settlements become known as Ascalon
205 BE Humans appear on Tyrian continent

This timeline is rather incomplete - a comprehensice timeline is to be found in another thread, and on the other guild wiki site.

That having been said, I dont know what you are trying to point out.

So, the stones were blasted back into the world between 100 AE and 1013 AE, while Abaddon was defeated circa 70AE after already having empowered his followers.

Wow - so you've managed to narrow it down to only 913 years.

Lik i said before, the manuscripts are clear that the Bloodstones erupted from the volcano 100 years after the exodus. As for whether o not Abaddon erupted the volcano himself, I conceded that a 30 year gap was my only discrepancy and as such should not detract from the greater theory regarding the Fallen God.

Tuor Son Of Huor

06-11-2006, 11:58

The Scriptures of Abaddon provide some insight into Abaddons' titles, as well as an inkling as to the state of the world almost immediately before the exodus:

And so it came to pass that Jadoth, being persecuted by the horrific Forgotten armies, and hounded from his home, did seek refuge among the cooling mists of the Crystal Sea. Untold weeks passed as Jadoth huddled in his sanctuary, with nothing to see save the endless ripples of the boundless ocean.

On the 51st day of his exodus, a frightful sight manifested before Jadoth's eyes: the unmistakable shape of Forgotten warships upon the horizon's shimmering edge.

And prayed Jadoth, "Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss that I might smite mine enemies and send them to the watery depths!

An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

And thus was magic gifted to Jadoth, chosen of Abaddon, the first of the Margonites.

-- Scriptures of Abaddon, 1BE

- Abaddons title was "Lord of the Everlasting Depths" - A water ele god?
- The Forgotten-Margonite war was brewing before the Five True Gods decided on the Exodus...

Quintus Antonius

06-11-2006, 14:49

Honestly, I don't completely like the phrase "the first of the Margonites". It should be more like, "the first of the Margonites who served Abaddon". The Margonites were a distinct group of people, from the Marga Coast (thus the name Margonite). Bu hey, what can you do, right?

teh Monkeys

08-11-2006, 17:40

In response to Robert Stalin (who has since been banned) and cited this as "evidence" that the bloodstones erupted AFTER the guild wars began, i say: Learn to Read. (Sorry quint, i'll keep it civil from now on)

Try reading. I never stated anything of the sort.

I stated, and I quote; "The lore simply states that the human kingdoms prospered a century after exodus. There is no mention of guildwiki's blatant bs about the bloodstones being scattered across Tyria a century after exodus. It makes a boatload more sense that the bloodstones were scattered shortly before the guild wars, causing all sorts of hell and putting the "desire for power into the hearts of men" and causing wars, than in a time of peace and porsperity."

the timeline for the eruption is 100 AE - 1013AE.

Tuor Son Of Huor

08-11-2006, 21:00

So you admit that ur 2nd account got banned, huh, Teh monkeys?

I know what you said, and the evidence that YOU posted proved MY point that the bloodstones were released in 100AE. If you still fail to see that, then perhaps the nuances of the english language are too much for you to bear.

Quintus Antonius

08-11-2006, 21:16

Cool it, Tuor or you'll join his second account in ban land for a bit.

Tuor Son Of Huor

09-11-2006, 10:58

/sigh how unfortunate.

Quintus Antonius

09-11-2006, 14:14

Disagree with someone, debate with them, prove them wrong, but do not attack them personally. You know the rules, Tuor. If you have a problem with a user, it is probably best to take it up in private, or talk to a moderator or administrator in private.

teh Monkeys

09-11-2006, 17:39

So you admit that ur 2nd account got banned, huh, Teh monkeys?

I never denied it. And no, I wasn't banned for anything worthwhile, just for having a secondary asccount.

I know what you said, and the evidence that YOU posted proved MY point that the bloodstones were released in 100AE. If you still fail to see that, then perhaps the nuances of the english language are too much for you to bear.

You stated that the bloodstones were scattered in the year 100 ae. This is bullocks. The bloodstones were scattered somewhere inbetween 100 AE and the start of the guildwars. It is impossible to determine the exact date of eruption. Your claims are nothing but conjecture.

Quintus Antonius

09-11-2006, 18:23

Well, in support of Tuor, the Prophecies Manuscripts do say that the volcano erupted 100 years after the Exodus by the Old Gods. It's on page 30 of the American Manuscripts.

teh Monkeys

09-11-2006, 19:52

Well, in support of Tuor, the Prophecies Manuscripts do say that the volcano erupted 100 years after the Exodus by the Old Gods. It's on page 30 of the American Manuscripts.

/sigh.

I'll explain one more time, then I'm done.

Over the next hundred years, the human kingdoms prospered. Powerful groups grew up within each nation. These were known as guilds. It was these groups, these guilds, that held the real power in Tyria. Though there were kings and organizations that made the laws and regulated the land, it was the guilds that enforced these laws—or didn’t—as they saw fit. As these guilds grew, their influence began to overlap.

100 years of prosperity. Guilds start to form.

As is ever the case with peace, it once again came to an end when the volcano erupted, spitting out the five stones and scattering them across Tyria. The magic they embodied seeped into the lands around them. Though the Bloodstones, as they are called, have never been reunited, the power that they possess was enough to reignite the desire for power in the hears of men.

The opposite of peace is war. Which war? The guild wars. 1013 AE.

No mention anywhere that the bloodstones were scattered in the year 100 AE. The end.

Quintus Antonius

09-11-2006, 21:30

Ah, I see what you are saying. When you seperate the paragraph like that, I can see where you are coming from.

Tuor Son Of Huor

10-11-2006, 01:43

********? I think not.

I could say:

"I drink milk on saturdays when im hungry"

and split it to say

"I drink milk" "On saturdays When Im hungry"

and you could argue that I only get hungry on satrudays and am always drinking milk. /shakeshead.

Splitting a paragraph doesnt prove your point at all - you're just twisting the words to suit your frail argument. I cant break it down any simpler than this::

Here's the flow of the paragraph:

After the exodus, peace reigned between men "over the next hundred years". Guilds *start* to form and gain power..

EXPLANATION: from year 0AE until 100AE there was peace, while guilds began to form.

UNTIL....

Volcano erupts, scattering the five bloodstones. The magic Seeped into the earth (the process of seeping takes time...). The magic (after seeping) reignited the desire of men for power. Guild wars start.

here's a simple timeline for you:

0AE - Exodus of the gods.
100AE - volcano erupts and spits bloodstones. the location of 3 are known - In the dense Maguuma jungle, the Harsh southern shiverpeaks and the ring of fire. The magic begins to seep into the earth and slowly spreads. Guilds gain power
1013AE - Guild wars begin.

Are you done here? I hope so.

teh Monkeys

10-11-2006, 10:44

Splitting a paragraph doesnt prove your point at all - you're just twisting the words to suit your frail argument. I cant break it down any simpler than this::

I am not "splitting paragraphs." I am not "twisting the words." I am analyzing the text one paragraph at a time, reading inbetween the lines, in order to see the bigger picture. Something that was hard-wired into my brain during history and literature classes for the last six years. (and wielded gratifying results, I might add, just for my ego's sake.)

After the exodus, peace reigned between men "over the next hundred years". Guilds *start* to form and gain power.

EXPLANATION: from year 0AE until 100AE there was peace, while guilds began to form.

No. No, that is not what it says.

From the year 0 AE until 100 AE, the human kingdoms of Orr and Ascalon prospered, while guilds began to form.

Nothing more.

You assume there is peace (which, granted, there probably was, but this is besides my point.); you assume that this is the peace described as ending due to the bloodstones, one paragraph down.

Volcano erupts, scattering the five bloodstones. The magic Seeped into the earth. The magic (after seeping) reignited the desire of men for power. Guild wars start.

I agree with you on this, as you could read.

(the process of seeping takes time...)

But this is where conjecture enters the fray. You assume that the seeping takes centuries. How do you know exactly how powerful the bloodstones are? Have you experimented on how long it takes for an average sized middle-aged human to be corrupted by a bloodstone? You have no clue how long it would take.

I can't explain this part any clearer:

As is ever the case with peace, it once again came to an end when the volcano erupted.

What the next few paragraphs state is: Peace ends when the volcano erupts; The struggle for power commences and war breaks out. War in question being the Guild Wars.

Granted, it is not stated how long the period inbetween eruption-war is. However, there is no mention of gradual decay of society, conflicts or anything of the sort caused by this "struggle for power". Infact, in the time you describe as the build-up to the guildwars (filled with power-hungry madmen, guilds fighting for power, etc.), an entire new nation is founded and flourishes (Kryta. Ring any bells?), trade alliances are opened with other continents and races, great monuments are being built and so forth; it is infact another age of prosperity.

The manuscripts simply state: Bam> bloodstones are scattered> people get power-hungry> Guild Wars start.

here's a simple timeline for you:

0AE - Exodus of the gods.
100AE - Prosperity.
unkown date - Bam> bloodstones are scattered> people get power-hungry.
1013AE - Guild Wars start.

Are you done here? I hope so.

You wish.

The time of eruption cannot be pinpointed down to the year 100 AE, it can merely be guessed at.

Sarah Frost

10-11-2006, 18:54

Let's see...

QA said, "I believe the empowering of the Margonites happened about a thousand years ago, so when the Bloodstones erupted, they were already empowered." (Post #60)

Originally Posted by European GW manuscript
Over the next hundred years, the human kingdoms prospered...
As is ever the case with peace, it once again came to an end when the volcano erupted... the Bloodstones, as they are called, have never been reunited...
This can't be taken literally... or the Gods would have only left Tyria less than 200 years ago (100 years, +59 years of Guild Wars, & 2 years to Present), so the volcano erupting to close out an era of peace might just be the end of ONE, pax romana style, peaceful era.

My personal conjectures are in Italics.. Otherwise, I have stuck to fact as strictly as possible. (Line 1)

Answers Section: Why was Abaddon jailed?
After the 5 Gods left Arah, and placed the bloodstones in the Caldera of the Volcano, they left the Mortal Realm and went into the Rifts. There is no mention on whether Abaddon himself went into the rifts with the other Gods.
Abaddon seized this oppertunity to claim the mastery of Magic by retrieving the bloodstones. He did this by erupting the volcano.
Soon after, he used his powers to grant the margonites tremendous power through "horrific transformations". *
He told them of ascension, but not how. This would be essential if he were to take the fight to the 5 Gods themselves in the rifts. He would also use the Margonites as his mortal army to conquer the rest of Tyria.
Abaddon and his army were defeated, and for his assault on the Gods and races of Tyria he was thrown into the Realm of Torment.(Tuor Son Of Huor, Post #1)

I'm not sure how Tuor's personal conjecture of the 70 AE eruption scattering the Bloodstones became a set fact... but the Margonite War a thousand years ago would certainly disrupt the peace in the region... roughly 100 years after the Exodus...

Your timeline should looks something more like this...
1072 AE Present day
1070 AE Guild Wars end
1013 AE Guild Wars begin
Before 1013 AE Abaddon's Mouth erupts scattering the Bloodstones
70-100 AE "Margonites waged a war a thousand years ago against the worshippers of the 5 Gods in the Northern Plains of Elona" (Tuor Son Of Huor, Post #1)
1 BE Gods give magic to races of Tyria

Quintus Antonius

10-11-2006, 23:31

Sarah Frost

11-11-2006, 00:11

Hrm, why was Abaddon Banished.

My favorite idea, though, is that Abaddon simply disagreed about something major that the other Gods agreed on. What, you ask? Simple - the exodus. The other five Gods couldn't leave one behind, as that would give him plenty of time to set himself up as the only God. The Pantheon wanted to step off and leave the world to its will, Abaddon wanted to keep control, insuring greater power and such. Since they couldn't make him commit to the Exodus but were committed to it themselves, they *made* him leave.

I kind of like this idea as well... perhaps he didn't leave until the end of the Margonite war...

I'd like to point out one major flaw in your theory. You are assuming Abaddon was not banished until after the sealing of the Bloodstones. If he was banished even ten seconds before the creation of the Bloodstones, then there were no professions since all magic was available to everyone.

Look at the world today... people worship gods devoutly. With less reason to than the actual god standing before you. Of course there would be a preist class of some type devoted primarily to him.

The problem I see is that the Manuscripts say that the Old Gods left, and never returned. The Nightfall Manuscripts also say that the Margonite civilization collapses at the same time that they leave. This means that they left after Abaddon was defeated.

I don't have the Manuscripts with me to read... but do they actually state that the gods never returned?

Let's toss this idea around... perhaps the five gods left, but Abaddon stayed behind, used the Bloodstones to increase his power and reshaped the Margonites. He then sent them out to increase his power base (Take followers from the other five... weakening them and further strangthening himself... if worship=power). Do the Manuscripts say how the Margonites were defeated. The other five not had to have come back to take Abaddon to his prison... no mortal could do that to a god.

By the way... everything here is based on what others have posted in this thread... with some influance from nineteen months of playing around in this strange and wonderful world of Tyria. I'm not claiming any of this as fact... I'll leave that to you.

Gmr Leon

11-11-2006, 00:12

The problem I see is that the Manuscripts say that the Old Gods left, and never returned. The Nightfall Manuscripts also say that the Margonite civilization collapses at the same time that they leave. This means that they left after Abaddon was defeated, also support by in-game facts.

So, I do not believe what you are saying is supported by the evidence.

A civilization can collapse and the people still exist though. The remnants of the Margonite civilization could have gone out in an all-out war out of rage. The civilization fell,yes,but some could have escaped with materials like weapons,armor,food,and etc. Really though, do you think they would allow themselves to simply disappear as their civilization fell?

I would imagine they would be pretty angry,anger that could have lead to an all-out war with their surrounding neighbors.

Quintus Antonius

11-11-2006, 00:33

I don't have the Manuscripts with me to read... but do they actually state that the gods never returned?

Let's toss this idea around... perhaps the five gods left, but Abaddon stayed behind, used the Bloodstones to increase his power and reshaped the Margonites. He then sent them out to increase his power base (Take followers from the other five... weakening them and further strangthening himself... if worship=power). Do the Manuscripts say how the Margonites were defeated. The other five not had to have come back to take Abaddon to his prison... no mortal could do that to a god.

By the way... everything here is based on what others have posted in this thread... with some influance from nineteen months of playing around in this strange and wonderful world of Tyria. I'm not claiming any of this as fact... I'll leave that to you.

Right well, if you don't have the Manuscripts, then don't make arguments based on them.

The game says that Abaddon was more than a match for two gods, but he could not fight all five.

But to those of you who do have the Manuscripts, let's review them. In the timeline, during the year 0AE (the year of the Exodus) it says the Margonites collapse and the Crystal Desert and Desolation are created. What created the Desolation? The defeat of Abaddon. The last part cited from the game.

On a side note: To those who don't have the Manuscripts. They are available in PDF format free of charge from www.guildwars.com.

Sarah Frost

11-11-2006, 08:12

Quintus... my last postings were based on the information in previous postings by others. Now that I have the manuscripts in front of me...

Mouvelian Calendar Year 0 - Crystal Desert Formed, Bloodstones Forged, Margonite Civilization Collapses, "The five gods leave the physical world"
175 BE - Margonite settlements appear along the coastlines...
[page 18 of the Nightfall Manuscript PDF, page 29 in the booklet]

History of Tyria does plainly say that the volcano erupted 100 years after the Bloodstones were dropped in & the Gods left...
[pages 28-35 of the Prophacies Manuscript PDF, pages 26-33 in the booklet]

So, according to the manuscripts, the Margonite war ended at, or just before, the time the Gods left Tyria (most likely hauling Abaddon, kicking and screaming foul obsinities, down to his new home in the RoT as they left). From now on we'll just have to take the story teller's "thousand years ago" to mean 'about 1100 years ago'... none of the manuscripts, however, deny the possiblity of one, or more, of the five gods visiting Tyria after the exodus. Nor do they exclude the possiblity of the five departing then coming back for Abaddon... and making a final departure in year 0... it's still a little vague on what happened at that point in history.

The greater gods of the pantheon share the Canthan heavens with an assortment of lesser demigods, as well as eternal ancestor spirits and legendary heroes granted divine status by the diverse inhabitants of the realm.
[page 10 of the Factions Manuscript PDF, page 18 in the booklet]

The Luxons, on the other hand, believe not only in the five greater gods of the Tyrian pantheon, but also three demigoddesses—the three queens Alua, Elora, and Ione.
[GuildWars.com - The World - Gods in Cantha]

Although each profession has a patron deity...
[GuildWars.com - The World - Gods in Elona]

Okay... so we knew the five gods left & took Abaddon with them... what's up with the other gods, demi-gods, and so on, in the pantheon? Were they destroyed in thier city of Arah during the destruction of Orr? Did they also leave for the Mists with the five main gods? It's rather curious that they would be mentioned in the Lore and then dropped.

Quintus Antonius

11-11-2006, 17:18

lynx raven raide

01-12-2006, 22:25

On when the volcano erupted, it could be wrong in assuming that it was just before the Guild Wars. You could easily assume this by basing it on the Prophecies manuscript, but since then the history timeline has been expanded. from the manuscripts:

872 AE: Shiro Tagachi slain in the Harvest Temple of Cantha after killing Emperor Angsiyan
i admit i have not got that far in factions, but could a war have surrounded this? but earlier....

712 AE: First of the Great Corsair Wars
hmm, narrows it a bit more....

583 AE: Collapse of The Great Dynasty. Start of the Pretender Wars and the Shattered Dynasty Era
this might be a bit better, narrowing it down from 100 AE to 583 AE. It could also be narrower, depending on how much was actually found out about the scarrab plague. So it could have been any war anywhere that broke the peace, and we could have more information in the next installment to add to it. Hell, they could actually tell us in the next manuscript (nudge nudge wink wink to A.Net

Gagabraino

15-12-2006, 00:44

I see one problem with an issue concerning the Margonites being descended from the Mursaat, and that is that the Mursaat were the enemies of the Titans, who had a strong link with Abaddon.

Unless the phase from Mursaat to Margonite changed them to Abaddon's side, I see no reason why they could have descended.

teh Monkeys

15-12-2006, 12:07

In all honestly, Alua, Elora, and Ione are probably not gods, nor divine by any stretch. To me, they seem more like Divinus Julius (that's the Divine Julius Caesar). Meaning, they're "godhood" is more political or ceremonial. We never really see many references to them, they don't have statues, or blessings. So, who knows what's up with them.

If that is the case, can't it be argued that both the Kurzick and Luxon heroes that defeated Shiro would have received a similar status?

Isn't it possible that there are lesser deities? Take Grenth for example. He wasn't a true god that received worship until he defeated Dhuum.

I see one problem with an issue concerning the Margonites being descended from the Mursaat, and that is that the Mursaat were the enemies of the Titans, who had a strong link with Abaddon.

You win the thread.

Zaa Nayazu

15-12-2006, 14:55

Could explained why Grenth didnt have to pull a Kormir(love this prhase) with Dhum to become a God, Grenth was already a minor deity therefore he just took the mantle without having to kill Dhum. Not saying its right, its just something that pop in my head.

Quintus Antonius

15-12-2006, 16:46

If that is the case, can't it be argued that both the Kurzick and Luxon heroes that defeated Shiro would have received a similar status?

They really did, all things considered. If you look at religions that have saints, such as the Kurzicks, saints are more or less lesser deities themselves. The Kurzicks would never admit it, but Saint Viktor is pretty much a lesser deity to them, and I'm sure the Luxons revere Archemorous the same way.

Could explained why Grenth didnt have to pull a Kormir(love this prhase) with Dhum to become a God, Grenth was already a minor deity therefore he just took the mantle without having to kill Dhum. Not saying its right, its just something that pop in my head.

From the Reaper of the Chaos Planes in the Underworld, we are told that Grenth rose up and "destroyed" (specifically uses this word) Dhuum. In Nightfall we found out that gods, such as Abaddon, cannot be killed, simply "destroyed" and absorbed to make the victor a god if they so choose. So, there are two possibilites, Grenth was like Menzies, that is, some sort of half-deity, perhaps even related to Dhuum, and usurped him. Remember, the Djinn in Dasha Vestibule describes Menzies as "seeking his brother's throne". Or the second possibility is Grenth was like Kormir. Grenth himself has been challenged once by those two brothers he turned into the Twin Serpents, although we don't know the details of it.