Six Eyed Significance?

[ccrazool]

In one of the NPE cutscenes, someone one of the bad guys does a chant next to a fallen statue of Abaddon, causing its eyes to light up and glow. It had six eyes. (no screenshot have i)

The concept art of Abaddon (http://forums.gwonline.net/showpost.php?p=4379019) also shows him as having six eyes.

Jade Armors (http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/3/31/JadeArmor.jpg) and Jade Bows (http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/d/d6/JadeBow.jpg) also have six eyes.

Coincidence? Fashion?

[Quintus Antonius]

I'm tweaking the title of this tread a bit, so it more accurately reflects what you are attempting to discuss.

[Robot Stalin]

Spiders have six eyes. Maybe they're connected to Abbadon!

Seriously though, I think it's just a coincidence. As of yet, we have absolutetly nothing linking mursaat to abbadon. That and the statue and the armors have pretty much nothing else in common, other than the number of eyes.

[Nobleman Azure]

The six eyes means hes supposed to be the 6th god

kidding aside Id like to think that isnt coincidence. I DID hear somewhere that nightfall is supposed to piece things together

[Iorek Valr]

Oooooo... now that Jade link is intresting... hadn't noticed they had 6 eyes before! The plot thickens!

Makes me think that the Mursaat are possibly the transformed 'powerful' Margonites? and Jades are like new and improved 'Enchanted' from the Crystal Desert made in the image of their God...

[hexal]

In one of the NPE cutscenes, someone one of the bad guys does a chant next to a fallen statue of Abaddon, causing its eyes to light up and glow. It had six eyes. (no screenshot have i)
We only see the back of said person, but im pretty sure it was Spearmarshal Kormir. It definately looks like her. Unfortunately I dont have a pic of it either. :undecided:

[the Unknown]

Beside the Jade, in faction the oni got also six eyes and the may have more conetion to it then the Jade since the come from a different realm/plane.

[Camaris Spectre]

Wow I'd never noticed that before. Reading the other threads I was discounting any Mursaat connection, but now I'm not so sure. It's not just the six eyes, the head of that statue is quite similar to a jade head.

I thought it was Spearmarshal Kormir also. Wasn't she pushing for exploration of the first city? I may have lost track of my lore here, but the statue could be something she found in her wanderings there.

[Quintus Antonius]

I have to go with Robot Stalin on this one. Spiders and other types of insects have six eyes, and aren't connected to Abaddon. I think it is very premature to start throwing speculation out that everything with six eyes must be related to Abaddon.

Also, so far as we've seen, everything related to Abaddon with six eyes (mostly from concept art) has the same face, sort of like a mask, with the distribution of eyes exactly in the same pattern as the Abaddon concept statue itself. Jades and Oni do not have this same eye distribution. Also, we know for a fact that the Oni are being spawned by an extratyrian demon trapped in the Jade Sea, not by Abaddon. At this point in time, I see no reason to assume that six eyes directly imply Abaddonian influence.

[shadow the hero]

Oni's got more then six eyes, also i'll would really not call it "eyes"

[Iorek Valr]

Not to pick fault but spiders generally have 8 eyes and insects only 2 (all be it multi-faceted).

[Glempius]

Abaddon's mouth anyone? A Mursaat stronghold if I recall correctly :P. A connection between the two isn't too unfeasible

[Camaris Spectre]

Can anyone link me to a screen shot of that statue?

[Quintus Antonius]

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=420698

[Arkhan The Black]

Maybe the Mursaat used to be followers of Abaddon but rebelled against him? Still today they use constructs created by his magic.

[Quintus Antonius]

I find it a bit disturbing that everytime something new comes up, it's automatically attributed to the Mursaat, especially in this case when evidence suggests the contrary, that they are trying to keep Abaddon in, not let him out.

So far as we know, the Mursaat may not even know about Abaddon. While I think it is likely they do, it is also possible they do not. As of now, all we really know is that they are trying to keep the Titans contained.

[False Visage]

It's extremely unlikely from a non-Lore context that ArenaNet would do something such as turn a well established enemy into the followers of Abbadon. The Margonites were only ever mentioned and we never saw anything more than some ruins, so turning them into a new foe was easy enough. The Mursaat are quite well established and thus making them into followers of Abaddon would mean seriously rewriting the Lore.

As for Lore itself, look at the followers of Abaddon and their twisted flesh and purple, unearthly energy that seems to come from their body itself. Look at the chaotic and unholy undead and how they turned out. I would assume that the Afflicted from Factions are somehow related to Abbadon too, but until this is proven it's conjecture on my part.

Anyway, my point is the Mursaat do not match these two (or three) images at all. For starters they're not run by any visible single higher authority, like the Lich or Abaddon himself. Secondly they wear a clear set of armour that is seperate to their bodies. Thirdly their wings are seemingly spectral in nature, instead of the physical and literal wings that the Margonite Paragons seem to have.

No, I think it's safe to say the Mursaat haven't sold their souls to Abbadon. Someone else probably has them. :P

[ShadowReapr]

If any assumptions were to be made regarding the Jades and their Mursaat linkage, it would be that the Mursaat are simply smart enough to use whatever is at their disposal. The Mursaat damn well don't want Abaddon and the Titans out of the Door of Komalie, and some hot-headed "But they're the enemies' weapons" argument wouldn't keep him in.

I'm not fond of the Mursaat romanticism that is sometimes present here, but they are not the be-all-and-end-all bad guys. It is highly doubtful we'll ever know their origins, but we can be sure it does not involve the servitude of Abaddon - I don't see why they'd support him let keep him locked away. And the argument "maybe they were keeping them inside on his command", or some such cannot be used as it is far more likely the Lich is an extension of Abaddon than the Mursaat of Abaddon.

[Quintus Antonius]

Also, in THK, the Vizier says, "The key to defeating the Mursaat lies locked behind the Door".

[Pei Wei]

Interesting perspective, the whole six-eyed gig. Admittedly, I'm still backtrackin' some through lore having only recently wandered a bit more (deeper) into the forums. So...basically I'm not all that "read up" on prior topics (please be forgiving).

It seems to me there's been a number of loose ends from both Prophecies and Factions, many, I believe, made comments/complaints about follow-through on storyline. With the hiring of Jeff Grubb to provide a more "meatier" story, thus adding to lore, I would hope that he'd not have just laid it flat out from the get-go: "insert-name-here" is your foe for this installment of Guild Wars.

Admittedly, I was fascinated by that intro cut-scene. (Glowing eyes on that fallen statue.)
Not to mention the other cut-scene that featured Varesh and...that suspiciously sounds-a-lot-like-Rhea-after-a-cough-lozenge General. (With the scout listening in behind the pillar.)

Personally? I can't help but hope it's a bit of a red herring. Until then...guess I'm back to mantid soup (http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw016qz1.jpg). :grin:

[Laibeus Lord]

Why is there so much 'evilness' connection with the Mursaats? I view them as Neutral Good. A race who's working to stop Abaddon, but at the same time not pro-5 gods.

[Glempius]

To extent I'd agree with that, they're not inherrently evil, it's just the heros (ie us) cross swords and therefore we assume they must be evil, since we're clearly good. But really the mursaat aren't doing anything too evil, so they order the killing of a few people every year but it's certainly preferable to titans running across Tyria. As Machavelli said "The end excuses the means"

The whole link between the mursaat and Abaddon is, for now, just speculation neither side of the argument really has any conrete proof

[False Visage]

As I've said before, the Mursaat probably don't see themselves as evil in much the same way someone like Hitler doesn't; not that I'm implying that the Mursaat are very similar to Hitler. My point is their ethics and morality are almost certainly differet to that of humans. Some of the actions they take may seem evil to us, but to them may seem neccesary or mitigated by a greater good. Evil and Good are labels that you attach to something, not an inherent quality.

[borneo]

Spiders have six eyes. Maybe they're connected to Abbadon!

Ehm... Spiders have 8 eyes...:tongue:

[Quintus Antonius]

Depending on the species, spiders can have anywhere from none to ten eyes. So enough with the spider nonesense, let's stay on topic here.

[Zion Farbow]

jaddes have 6 eyes!? wow i never knew htat :O

[Arkhan The Black]

Maybe the Jades got 6 eyes because they are constructs that used to belong to Abaddon or the Margonites?

[Quintus Antonius]

No the Jades are made by the Mursaat. They are "hatched", for a lack of a better term.

I have a theory on this. In the Ring of Fire, we see the Mursaat harnassing the power of the volcano in "furnances" built into their forts. If the Mursaat use the power of Abaddon trapped within the volcano to make their jades, just as they use the power of the Chosen to keep the soul batteries charged, then the six-eyes may be a side effect of this magic.

[Zaxares]

Why is there so much 'evilness' connection with the Mursaats? I view them as Neutral Good. A race who's working to stop Abaddon, but at the same time not pro-5 gods.

Actually, I view the Mursaat as being Lawful Neutral or True Neutral (at least, if we're considering the standards of 'good' and 'evil' to be fixed absolutes). The Mursaat are clearly adopting a strategy of 'the end justifies the means'. They are never shown as actively enjoying the pain and suffering they or their White Mantle followers cause, but nor do they exhibit any sympathy or compassion for the people that are being oppressed by them.

Neutral Good beings are motivated to bring joy to and ease the suffering of others, but they do it for its own sake, not to further a common cause of 'good'. An example might be a city innkeeper who is willing to give food and shelter to anybody who needs it, regardless of whether they can pay or not, but they are not likely to go out and establish soup kitchens or employment schemes to help the poor.

[Quintus Antonius]

Guys, I've noticed that recently there have been lots of little "snippits" included in these topics. While no one person in particular has been doing it, I think we've all been adding a little to much side-banter to the discussions. I'm going to start removing some of these little one-liners that add nothing to the conversation as it is "technically" violating the pimping the post count forum rule. No one is in trouble though, I just thought I'd let everyone know why they may notice some of their posts disappearing.

[Shokk Mjollnir]

Actually the Jades could be made by abaddon/margonites, if i remmeber right jade "hatch" as quintus said from statues, statues that could have been a part of margonite/abaddon temples and simply been animated by the mursaat.but the magic-ey furnace thing works too.

[mesmered]

Maybe they need 6 eyes to monitor or watch each of the 6 forces that oppose and opress them:

Dwayna, Melandru, Balthazar, Lyssa, Grenth, and PUGs(or Tyria rofl).

Working off that, Abaddon and his minions have a constant reminder of their exile, goals, and constantly see/know who to take it out on. After all, the godly are omniscent, and must have a way to see "everything". Abaddon would probably be the only one whose eyes can see through realms while the minions just have six eyes symbolically, but you get the point.

Too bad they don't have a 7th eye watching Anet for nerfs.

[guyverII]

I'm not sure if anyone else has theorized this yet, but I just wanted to throw it out there per se for debate. My take on the Mursaat is that they are neither bad nor good but more like a parasite kind of thing. They are powerful, no doubt, and it’s clear their race knows a lot more about magic than anybody else. So in their pursuit of ultimate magic, I wouldn’t be surprised by them wanting to take advantage of a powerful magical source like a trapped god.

Given this line of thought, it would make sense why they would seem to be protecting the Door of Komalie from anybody… period, be it the seers who may have been trying to free their master (this is still speculation that they follow Abbadon or whatever his/her name may be but for this theory it makes sense so I use it), the Lich who wants to open the door, or the newfound humans that suddenly are fighting their way to the door (who they do not realize are being tricked by the Lich).

It would also make sense, then, that if they were using him as some sort of power source Then whenever they use that magic to animate jades it would be no surprise they would bear traces of the original source.

Again please bear in mind this is my theory and as Antonious has continued to stress we just don’t have enough proof to cement things together yet…

But by all means discuss! :laugh:

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, what you are saying is consistant insomuch as the Mursaat do use the area around them to their advantage. For instance, we can see in the Ring of Fire forts, that the Mursaat tap the power of the volcano. I myself have theorized that the Jades have six eyes because they are a byproduct of the Mursaat's harnassing of this energy.

[Glempius]

A fair few people seem to be talking about the Mursaat worshipping Abaddon. I'll admit I'm not an expert on all the lore business but isn't that temple of Balthazar in The Falls thought to be of Mursaat origin?

If it is the idea of the Mursaat exclusively worshipping Abaddon seems flawed

[Quintus Antonius]

I personally think the evidence shows that the Mursaat worshipping anything is flawed. If anything, the Mursaat worship themselves.

The problem is, people seem to want to label everything as "good" or "evil". Life doesn't work that way, neither do the game groups.

[False Visage]

Now if only people here kept that in mind when it came to Glint. XD

My only issue is, that at least for Humans the original Prophecies Lore suggests that power is gained by worshipping the gods. We've seen Mursaat use skills and proffesions similar to that of Humans; must they also be supplicant to the gods to receive these powers?

[Quintus Antonius]

It's obvious that the abilities under the "spheres" of the gods have nothing to do with the gods beyond the god being representative of that professions skills.

For instance, we see creatures that are either non-sentient, or have different beliefs, or are straight up evil (undead, afflicted, etc) using skills and spells. It's obvious the gods are favoring this groups with this magic, it's just a skill they have, like any other skill a natural creature would have. If the gods gave magic directly by their influence, the whole idea of Bloodstones sealing the magic would be irrelevent.

[Minionman]

It might be that worshipping the gods is only a small part of being a profession, perhaps early on when the different professions started to appear, most of their skills were based off worshipping the gods, but once enough people learned and studied magic, it became less and less about using a god's power and more about learning a set of skills to use magic. When the games take place, worshipping the gods may give a slight advantage, but being skilled in magic is the more important part. In this case, the mursaat don't have to actively worship the gods, they just have to learn to control the magic, and than train as monks, mesmers, etc.

[Sum Kinda Monster]

If there is a connection I would imagine it be the Mursaat serve Abaddon. You hear about the White Mantle casting the false gods from this earth. I suppose Abaddon harbors some ill-will towards his other god-cohorts.

[nylian]

Well, the black-dyed spooky seer that infuses our armors in a few Tyrian missions striked me as having a very strong resemblance to that of a Margonite Seer. Also has four arms, also floats in the air, and what's with all that black garment that could possibly conceal some shiny energies within?

Also, I don't think that if ANet would not want to link both creatures they would probably find it too much of a coincidence to give them similar revamped skins and the same name. Sure, one of them states Margonite before, but they are both Seers, are they not? To sum up, the black Seer in Prophecies may be wearing a mask that covers four of the aditional eyes.

And didn't she speak of an ancient war with the Mursaat that was lost?

[Durza the Shadeking]

If there is a connection I would imagine it be the Mursaat serve Abaddon. You hear about the White Mantle casting the false gods from this earth. I suppose Abaddon harbors some ill-will towards his other god-cohorts.

Yeah the Mursaat serve Abbadon....Hey wait a minute....Then how come they were trying to stop the Lich and keeping the minions of Abbadon locked away?

The Mursaat are not in the world of Tyria for good or evil. They are there for themselves. They keep locked away one threat against them (Titans and Abbadon) and tried to subdue the other (us).

Sum Kinda Monster, I would reccomend you replay Prophicies and see all the cutscenes about the Mursaat and Lich (Abbadon's Minnion).

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, the black-dyed spooky seer that infuses our armors in a few Tyrian missions striked me as having a very strong resemblance to that of a Margonite Seer. Also has four arms, also floats in the air, and what's with all that black garment that could possibly conceal some shiny energies within?

Also, I don't think that if ANet would not want to link both creatures they would probably find it too much of a coincidence to give them similar revamped skins and the same name. Sure, one of them states Margonite before, but they are both Seers, are they not? To sum up, the black Seer in Prophecies may be wearing a mask that covers four of the aditional eyes.

And didn't she speak of an ancient war with the Mursaat that was lost?


Doubt it, they didn't know about the Titans, and once they did, they regretted helping to wipe out the Mursaat keeping the Door of Komalie shut.

[nylian]

Doubt it, they didn't know about the Titans, and once they did, they regretted helping to wipe out the Mursaat keeping the Door of Komalie shut.

By "they" you are referring to the whole race of Seers? I was not aware that they didn't know about the titans, or at least I don't remember. When did a Seer state that?

That aside, it is possible for a Margonite to ignore that the titans were trapped behind Komalie. And about the regretting part, that may as well be true. The Seers can be Margonites in repent, in theory. That would explain the ancient war against the Mursaat [possibly the same one that made the Crystal Desert], and also the black dress, which would mean mourning and repent, perhaps?

[Quintus Antonius]

Absolutely no facts in that one.

The Seer is the Ancient Seer in the Ring of Fire, right before it gets trounced by the Armageddon Lords. If they are both Abaddonian minions, don't you think they would team up instead of ripping each other apart?

[nylian]

Well, yesterday my Dervish saw a small group of Margonites and Graven Monoliths getting wiped by an even smaller group of terribly annoying madness titans in the Nightfallen Garden. They just happened to cross paths and engaged fighting. I have no explanation for that either.

Thing is, the Seer may be in fact a Margonite in repent, as I stated earlier, which would justify the cloaking of the eyes and whole body with dark garments and being attacked by the Armageddon lords [and other titans in the last mission, if I remember well]. It would also justify the much theorized Mursaat presence in the battle of the Crystal Desert millenia ago. If you add up the Seer's similar skin and name to the Margonite Seer, that's just too much coincidence for me.

Hey, I can accept that the GMs may alter some skins in order to create diversity, and they even make the creatures share similar names... but that's always with different breeds of the same species, like termites and nephytas... Sure, they did copy a few skins for UW and FOW that were entirely unrelated... but the names were completely different.

If this is really a coincidence, it will be awkward and somewhat disappointing for me.

[Blazing Liger]

I'm pretty sure it's just a coincidence. If you look at the other Margonites, there is one that bears slight resemblance to a Mursaat, one to a Seer, one to a Djinn, and another kind to a harpy. I think all this resemblance proves is that Abaddon isn't terribly creative in transforming his servants. He just copies other creatures.

[Rob Van Der Sloot]

By the way, related: Abaddon has it's own six eyed shrines aswell. Spiffy.

http://www2.hku.nl/~rob3/gwabaddonshrines.gif

[Quintus Antonius]

I'm pretty sure it's just a coincidence. If you look at the other Margonites, there is one that bears slight resemblance to a Mursaat, one to a Seer, one to a Djinn, and another kind to a harpy. I think all this resemblance proves is that Abaddon isn't terribly creative in transforming his servants. He just copies other creatures.

The closest comparison I can think of is Star Trek. I love Star Trek, but does anyone honestly believe every alien race is bipedial and humanoid? Not really. But within the context of Star Trek, all those races exist, most seperately from each other. It's true that they had common ancestors (an alien race planted the seeds of humanoid lifeforms on each planet billions of years ago), but that doesn't mean that a human and a Romulan are necessarily related currently jsut because they are both bipedal, humanoid, and have two eyes.

The Seer is missing some key aspects of Margonite structure. No six eyes, no spectral arms, chest, or head, and a fundamental lack of understanding about Abaddon. Plus, they work with Glint, and Glint absolutely knew about Abaddon, seeing as she was around at the time he existed. It is more likely Glint was misleading them, but then again, Glint was scared ****less of the Titans as well.