Tyria-Elona Triangulation Error

[Mekel Galasarn]

Fact: In one area of Elona, called Crystal Overlook, it's possible to take a teleporter to The Arid Sea, an area in the Crystal Desert of Tyria (As long as you've been to both areas).

Fact: In the Arid Sea, there is a statue of a female warrior standing high and regal above the sands.

Fact: It's possible to see this statue from the north portion of the Crystal Overlook. It is the only place in the game where you can see another continent.

Fact: From two different points, you can see the statue from similar, yet different directions, allowing a cartographer to triangulate the position of the statue and, at the same time, all of Tyria in relation to Elona. The results are shown below...

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c219/Chessrook44/Elona-TyriaCartogrophalImpossibilit.jpg

As you can see... observations indicate that Tyria is too close to Elona. A portion of Thirsty River intersects with The Ruptured Heart.

What does this mean?!

[Ju Smurph]

What does this mean?!

1) you listened in maths class
2) you take this game a little to seriously

nice observation though :grin:

[Zion Farbow]

and u have solved sumtin :D

[vinegar]

hey, now that's a nice find!

[Durza the Shadeking]

However, although we can see the statue, we have no real way of knowing how far away it is. I mean that thing is huge. While Tyria and Elona are close (very) I do not think they overlap.

[Mekel Galasarn]

There are two ways of figuring out its distance. The first is unreliable, and that is to compare how large it appears from the Crystal Overlook and fing that exact scale and height from a distance in the Arid Sea.

The second is very reliable, and how I found its location here: If you view an object from two different locations, you will see it at different angles. Drawing straight lines from these two points, they will eventually intersect at the location of the object. This is also a good way to figure out distance, if you know the angles and distance on your side.

While you don't think they overlap, and overlapping is a physical impossibility without some VERY strong magic or divine influence, the facts and observations are right there and I'd attribute this to an error on the part of ANet.

I'll include here pictures of the statue itself from the two locations at Crystal Overlook.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c219/Chessrook44/COStatueViewing1.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c219/Chessrook44/COStatueViewing2.jpg

[Unai]

However, although we can see the statue, we have no real way of knowing how far away it is

Yes, we can see how far the statue is with the method Mekel used.

[NachtStalker Kaneda]

Nice find but the paradox is explained later in the game - when Kormir talks about the Temple of the Six Gods and how Abaddon had drawn the parts of Crystal Desert and Arid See (and the said temple of which the statue is a part) with him into the depths of Hell.
Still, nice find there

[Hadin Gar Kain]

Nice find but the paradox is explained later in the game - when Kormir talks about the Temple of the Six Gods and how Abaddon had drawn the parts of Crystal Desert and Arid See (and the said temple of which the statue is a part) with him into the depths of Hell.
Still, nice find there

yeah but that is in side the vortex, kinda like nightfallen jahai, so it is likly still the real statue, unless abadon reached the surface :O

[Mekel Galasarn]

Of course, one thing to remember is that when you get close to the statue in the Arid Sea, it appears to have toppled over. (If fact, if you watch it the whole time you approach, you see it eventually just "jump" from upright to fallen)

[Quintus Antonius]

Did you take into account the refraction properties of heat eminating from the surface of the sand? Light would not travel straight like your triangulations with the way heat distorts light travelling through the air of arid areas. It's the same phenomenon that causes mirages, and makes desert roads look significantly shorter than they actually are. Also, you have to take into account the height of the statue.

[Mekel Galasarn]

True, I did not take those properties into account.

[NachtStalker Kaneda]

Of course, one thing to remember is that when you get close to the statue in the Arid Sea, it appears to have toppled over. (If fact, if you watch it the whole time you approach, you see it eventually just "jump" from upright to fallen)

It falls over during a quest for 15app and forms a bridge.
And besides since we are dealing with transdimesional vortex here (and quite possible quantum fun) the statue we are seeing is in my opinion viewed from two different sides of reality border. Kinda other side of the mirror thing.

[Sarah Frost]

You might also want to take into account the surrounding major rock formations...

While it is true that the statue is "famous" in the Arid Sea, it may not be the only statue of it's kind. While looking at the rock formations the Staute as seen in the Crystal Overlook would be some distance to the west of the one in the Arid Sea... but that's using the relitive shapes of landmasses as landmarks to veiw the locations.

[Sounds Risky]

It falls over during a quest for 15app and forms a bridge.

It will just fall over if you get close enough to it, no quest required.


I too did triangulation to see where the statue would be on the map, and I think the simplest explaination is that they're just two different statues.

[Arkhan The Black]

The way I see it the statue has been fallen for ages and all we see is a ghostly shadow/mirage of it.

[lynx raven raide]

it could be another statue, owing to the fact that the other statue had fallen, and also that, correct me if i am wrong, nightfall takes place 3 years after prophacies

[Arkhan The Black]

Well the statue has the same damage on the leg so I am pretty sure it is the same one.

[Mekel Galasarn]

Personally, I still stand with "ANet didn't think to try to triangulate the exact location"

[Sable Phoenix]

Well the statue has the same damage on the leg so I am pretty sure it is the same one.

Damage or not, the physical impossibility of the two areas being that close to each other would indicate that they are either two different statues or that it is a mirage. If it's a mirage, it could actually be hundreds or even thousands of miles away.

[lynx raven raide]

I think this, like the World Map issue (where Canta really is), is only going to be settled if A.Net bring out a reveal-section-per-chapter-release world map, but that could be problematic for them as it restricts the area they can work with.

[Kinlin]

Might not be the same stature, their are a few around the crystal desert (All ruined) chances are equally likely it is a diferent one and the portal takes us a little further past it to the Arid Sea where the origional is.

Also note our heros see the statue in question fall a few years before, makes it even more likely that it isnt the same statue.

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, that's under the assumption that you do the 15 attribute quest. If you are just an Elona character, then you've never been there to see the thing fall, and since the explorable areas are static for the most part, it would always appear upright until you approach it and trigger the falling animation.

[lynx raven raide]

hmmm, good point. it is just like walking past ashford abbey/sadelect sanitarium and seing the Dwayna statue and NPCs, but you dont see the PCs untill you enter the place, not to mention i think in the post you can see the statue whole regardless if you have favour from the outside

[Quintus Antonius]

I was thinking more along the lines of how when you kill everything in an area and then leave, and come back, they are all alive again.

[lynx raven raide]

the only thing there is they dont just drop dead again unless you kill them, but i see where you are going with it

[MasterNightfall]

Well, that's under the assumption that you do the 15 attribute quest. If you are just an Elona character, then you've never been there to see the thing fall, and since the explorable areas are static for the most part, it would always appear upright until you approach it and trigger the falling animation.

You see it 'fall' even without the 15 attribute quest active.

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, okay, admittedly I was using the assumption that the only reason people go out that far is for the quest or for cartographer.

[Minionman]

A lot of the mirages in the crystal desert work along the lines of appearing one way when far away, and appearing another when close up, the statue works the same way.


I think it is the same statue, just because the designers would want to clue people in on what the next zone over is, and the size difference can either be attributed to graphics error, refraction in air, and/or mirage magic depending on what the particular person wants to think. In truth, a lot of guild wars size scales are messed up (somehow you can run across half the kingdom of ascalon in around 30 minutes, which in real life would maybe get you through a small/medium sized town at most)

Also, amazing and awesome that you actually went and did this.

[Mekel Galasarn]

I saw it, took the pics, did it then. Kind of a spur-of-the-moment thing.

And as I said, ANet probably didn't think people would triangulate or anything.

[ultimastrike]

The answer to the paradox is that the events in Elona take place years after the events in Tyria and Cantha. Check out the manuscripts. Therefore it's entirely possible and probable that some of what you see in Elona is the (further) devastated remains of the southern areas of the Crystal Desert. Overlap makes sense - Prophecies is what it looked like a few years back, Nightfall is what it looks like now.

However, this still doesn't explain how the statue is standing up again.

[Traveller]

However, this still doesn't explain how the statue is standing up again.

I figure it's the same reason we see it standing up in Prophecies as well - a mirage of sorts.

[Lord Juan]

Therefore it's entirely possible and probable that some of what you see in Elona is the (further) devastated remains of the southern areas of the Crystal Desert.

This its what i think, and i think thay may be another statue. Because, it doesnt make any sense to see the statue standing when we all know currently it has been in the ground for at least 3 years.

[Raven Flameheart]

I was thinking more along the lines of how when you kill everything in an area and then leave, and come back, they are all alive again.

They use the res shrines after it's safe to come back.

I'm going to go with the meta-thinking, and say it's a mistake. Since both occurances are in the same area, I think it exists as a point in the far distance, just not nearly far enough. Little over-attentive spotting it, but that's what this forum's all about, and we wouldn't be here if we didn't admire that kind of approach. Good thinking.

[zweistein]

Did you take into account the refraction properties of heat eminating from the surface of the sand? Light would not travel straight like your triangulations with the way heat distorts light travelling through the air of arid areas. It's the same phenomenon that causes mirages, and makes desert roads look significantly shorter than they actually are. Also, you have to take into account the height of the statue.

Mirrage only makes thinks look closer or further. Because his measurements are triangulated, mirrage efect is irrelevant.

[grellnak]

Mirrage only makes thinks look closer or further. Because his measurements are triangulated, mirrage efect is irrelevant.I was going to mention something similar, that the surface heat distortions which cause a mirage can cause a long road to appear short but don't cause a curved road to appear straight (as far as I know anyway), meaning the distortions are vertical but not lateral.

I would chalk this up to a mistake as well. It seems the most plausible to me that the statue was simply placed there somewhat haphazardly to indicate the proximity of the desolation to the crystal desert, but that they didn't really look into making sure the two world maps wouldn't conflict if you actually triangulate things.


That said, if you're going to get into fantasy matters like magical fields rather than just the temperature inversions discussed in places like the wikipedia article on mirages, then you can't rule out the possibility that there are some sorts of magic distorting your view of far off objects.

[Sable Phoenix]

The answer to the paradox is that the events in Elona take place years after the events in Tyria and Cantha. Check out the manuscripts. Therefore it's entirely possible and probable that some of what you see in Elona is the (further) devastated remains of the southern areas of the Crystal Desert. Overlap makes sense - Prophecies is what it looked like a few years back, Nightfall is what it looks like now.

However, this still doesn't explain how the statue is standing up again.

First off, both the events that created the Crystal Desert and the Desolation took place hundreds of years before the games. The extents of their devestations are pretty well fixed.

Second, the statue is always standing up until you get to a certain distance from it, then it fades and you see that it's really fallen down. I always assumed it was some sort of magical mirage, a mirage that lets you see back in time rather than farther in distance. So you're seeing the statue as it was in the past, rather than as it is currently very far away. Once you get near it, the mirage dissipates and you see it as it really is.

[Minionman]

Mirrage only makes thinks look closer or further. Because his measurements are triangulated, mirrage efect is irrelevant.

If the air temperature or composition is different between desolation and the crystal desert (not a far stretch), some refraction may occur between the two zones that effects the light travelling from one to the other.

[maleki]

I would 2nd the idea that its size might be a mirage...whos to say whether the heat on the sand makes it seem farther away or even bigger from afar. The other theory of it being another statue is entirely possible 2. To make the assumption that these areas overlapped, a real cartogropher would probably want to check out the surrounding area and the mountains to see if what you see from around the statue is simliar to what you might see from the overlook. I can see how this can be more difficult...and I just want to say GJ.

[Degas]

I remember back in the day, seeing the statue fall (and I mean actually fall) I guess it was later changed to just snapping from standing to fallen. No idea why.
Also, I do believe you are all reading too much into the game. The developers probably didn't even though someone would go around triangulating, measuring and such.
Specially, they probably wouldn't waste time messing with light distortions produced by heat when they have so much stuff to do

[Gmr Leon]

Degas,you're saying the statue actually did once have an animation to it's fall? When was that?

[Ranger Nietzsche]

must have been a LONG time ago...since ive been playing since Feb. 2005 and never seen the animation

[Chriseth]

map proportions arent the same.
Im assuming thats the culprit because of the rate of getting explorer in cantha and tyria and elona is very different

[Ranger Nietzsche]

Well that depends on which map he is using. From my map assessment threads the tyrian map is like 1.33 times larger than the elonian world map.

However if he is using the "U" mission maps or the zoomed in world map those are all the same proportions across chapters.

[Mekel Galasarn]

I used the zoomed-in world maps, which have the same proportions.

[declanlangfaeder]

Either way, I'm beginning to think we've placed the Elonan map too close to the Tyrian one. It may belong significantly further South.

If you look at the northern portion of the Elonan map, the Desolation appears to continue North (the darkened portion).

If the maps were aligned as we've placed them, we should at least see discoloration south of the Arid Sea, Vulture Drifts, and Dunes of Despair.

More, there are lines of sulfer in the Poisoned Outcrops running SW-NE that are left unaccounted for.

Thoughts?

[Ecomancer]

Your method is inaccurate. You forgot to take the direction of the statue into account. Since the statues direction is the only thing that is static when comparing maps of Elona and Tyria it is important to note down its direction.

As others have said it could be totally a different statue. Let me show you how the map would have looked if the statue in Prophecies and Elona were the same:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/556/crystal1sb1.jpg


Now, note that if the statues were not the same or we were uncertain of the distances involved or even if there was several statues placed in one line by a distance, this is what the map could look like:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1135/crystal2dw8.jpg

Remember there is also a mission named Elona Reach further north. As the second picture goes (with further extrapolation) Elona Reach missions name would make perfect sense. Elona Reach would literally be the last point at which Elona reaches Tyria.

[Quintus Antonius]

I'd like to point out that in the first picture, and even the second one, the two makes literally line up. Look at the "masked" lines under the fog of war of the map.

That's good map making.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

I'd like to note that "Elona Reach" does not mean how far Elona reached.

I'd put down 1000000k that Elona Reach refers to the "reach" meaning a body of water, similar to a canal or channel.

This is because if you set the game language to Italian the name of the outpost is "Canale Di Elona"

[Santax]

First off, both the events that created the Crystal Desert and the Desolation took place hundreds of years before the games. The extents of their devestations are pretty well fixed.
Not really... as you move further north to the Mouth of Torment, it's meant to seem like things are getting "worse" in real-time. Night began to fall on the Desolation when Varesh opened the Vortex, which is when it began to spread to the area around the Ruptured Heart.

[terakhan]

I assumed things got worse because you were getting closer to the epicenter of the effect, where Abaddon was defeated and where Varesh was opening the portal.

[Ecomancer]

I'd like to note that "Elona Reach" does not mean how far Elona reached.

I'd put down 1000000k that Elona Reach refers to the "reach" meaning a body of water, similar to a canal or channel.

This is because if you set the game language to Italian the name of the outpost is "Canale Di Elona"

Regardless, whether or not it referes to how far Elona reaches or a body of water - which most likely ties with Elona in some way, does not matter. The fact that it is related to Elona in one way or another (though its unknown) is relevant.

[Chimeratech]

Of course, one thing to remember is that when you get close to the statue in the Arid Sea, it appears to have toppled over. (If fact, if you watch it the whole time you approach, you see it eventually just "jump" from upright to fallen)

it would be better if u heard an almighty rumble as the statue falls or see it fall from crystal overlook...

[Ranger Nietzsche]

Regardless, whether or not it referes to how far Elona reaches or a body of water - which most likely ties with Elona in some way, does not matter. The fact that it is related to Elona in one way or another (though its unknown) is relevant.

yes but it doesn't mean the outpost was within any current or old definition of ELona.

For the same reason Cairo, IL isn't in egypt.

so i don't quite see how its name is relevant to the attempt to justify the connection of the two world maps.

[Ecomancer]

yes but it doesn't mean the outpost was within any current or old definition of ELona.

For the same reason Cairo, IL isn't in egypt.

so i don't quite see how its name is relevant to the attempt to justify the connection of the two world maps.

Just because Cairo IL isn't in Egyp doesn't mean that there is no connection between Cairo IL and Cairo Egypt.


"Sometime in the 1830s, Southern Illinois became known as “Egypt” or “Little Egypt.” The most likely reason this region is known as “Little Egypt” is because settlers from northern Illinois came south to buy grain during years when they had poor harvests in the 1830s just as ancient people had traveled to Egypt to buy grain (Genesis 41:57 and 42:1-3). Later, towns in Southern Illinois were named Cairo, Thebes, and Karnak, just as in the country of Egypt. "

Source: http://egyptianaaa.org/SI-History.htm


As you can see, a connection between the two locations exists. Likewise, the same could hold true for Elona Reach and Elona.

[Quintus Antonius]

This may also come back to the old Elona vs. Elonia argument.

[cibi]

Back to the original argument... I think it is important to remember that you are trying to claim that a giant stone statue in the middle of a desert made up of tiny crystal particles, in a world where upright beast named Charr can call fire from the sky and destroy entire kingdoms, where a dragon lives in a grain of sand and gods once walked the earth and held court in an ancient city, where the murrsat live in a city no one sees, where an undead litch unleashes an army of titans and a mercenary bodyguards death turns a sea to jade and a forest to stone... Wait, where was I going with this?

Oh yes, considering all of that, is it so hard to believe that the statue only APPEARS to be standing due to some ancient magic? As you draw closer the magic is no longer strong enough to hide the truth from you, and you see the full extent of the devistation...

Hell, the whole crystal desert and the desolation are clearly quite saturated with magic. You ascend, gain the favor of the gods in the crystal desert, and an anceint and evil god is imprisioned in the desolation... I think its entirely understandable if the rules of reality are bent a little in the area, this arn't quite what they appear.

[Quintus Antonius]

Not to mention crystals refract light, which when coupled with heat distortion could easily account for a mirage or two.

[Mekel Galasarn]

Can I please once again point out that this is likely ANet's blunder?

[Quintus Antonius]

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4588469&postcount=7

[ultimastrike]

Again, I'd like to point out that there is a time difference between Prophecies and Nightfall, and what you see as being a problem with distances could easily just be you retreading over the same ground you walked on three years earlier. You simply do not recognize it because of the corruption Abbadon's return is causing in the landscape.

[Sasha Deathtouch]

I not sure if anyone has already said this, but I'm pretty sure that the reason we see the statue standing upright in Prophecies is because it's a mirage. I seem to recall an NPC saying something to the effect that the statue fell long ago, but until you approach it, it looks to be intact. I'm pretty sure that it's the same statue for this reason. It's probably still destroyed in the Arid Sea, but the same magic mirage effects that make it look whole in Proph are also making it look the way it is now from the CO. As for the overlap, I've got nothin'. :-/

[gervasium]

Your method is inaccurate. You forgot to take the direction of the statue into account. Since the statues direction is the only thing that is static when comparing maps of Elona and Tyria it is important to note down its direction.

As others have said it could be totally a different statue. Let me show you how the map would have looked if the statue in Prophecies and Elona were the same:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/556/crystal1sb1.jpg


Now, note that if the statues were not the same or we were uncertain of the distances involved or even if there was several statues placed in one line by a distance, this is what the map could look like:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1135/crystal2dw8.jpg

Remember there is also a mission named Elona Reach further north. As the second picture goes (with further extrapolation) Elona Reach missions name would make perfect sense. Elona Reach would literally be the last point at which Elona reaches Tyria.

I think this map cannot be right because, although the fog matches mostly, you turned the Crystal Overlook. Thus, north in profecies is not the north in nightfall. You can see on the game map where north is on those continents( hint: up! )

[Karn the Betrayer]

Of course, one thing to remember is that when you get close to the statue in the Arid Sea, it appears to have toppled over. (If fact, if you watch it the whole time you approach, you see it eventually just "jump" from upright to fallen)

they should of been more realistic with the toppling of that statue like say a huge rumble and an animation of said statue falling also I would hate to be at the place where the hand and the head landed in the arid sea

First off, both the events that created the Crystal Desert and the Desolation took place hundreds of years before the games. The extents of their devestations are pretty well fixed.

huh u mean that the desolation and the Crystal Desert may have been one large body of water until it was 'scorched' by the battle against abaddon?

[Gmr Leon]

Not may have been, but we know for a fact the Crystal Desert was. I think the Desolation was too, however I can't say so for fact.

[Sasha Deathtouch]

they should of been more realistic with the toppling of that statue like say a huge rumble and an animation of said statue falling also I would hate to be at the place where the hand and the head landed in the arid sea

Please refer to my last post. The statue has been toppled over for a long time before your character ever gets there. The upright statue that we all see as we approach it is a mirage of what it used to be. Therefore, when you get close enough, the mirage disappears suddenly and you are left with the reality of what remains of the once mighty colossus. Thus, no sound effect or falling animation, 'cause it's already fallen.

[Karn the Betrayer]

Not may have been, but we know for a fact the Crystal Desert was. I think the Desolation was too, however I can't say so for fact.

the 'lair of the fogotten' was where Abaddon was defeated but (i think) lor said that the crystal desert came to be cause of that fight

[Quintus Antonius]

No, the Ruptured Heart is where that battle took place. The Lair of the Forgotten is a Forgotten fort that was destroyed by Margonites.

[Karuro]

Wasn't Abaddon defeated in the Mouth of Torment in the Ruptured Heart?
As I don't recall reading ingame anything about the Lair of the Forgotten being the final battleground.

Edit: QA already said it. Hate reading a page and not refreshing before posting >.<

[Harjubal od Uo]

Please refer to my last post. The statue has been toppled over for a long time before your character ever gets there. The upright statue that we all see as we approach it is a mirage of what it used to be. Therefore, when you get close enough, the mirage disappears suddenly and you are left with the reality of what remains of the once mighty colossus. Thus, no sound effect or falling animation, 'cause it's already fallen.

I know that at one point there was an animation for it falling. I was wandering around in the Arid Sea, heard a rumbling, looked around and saw the statue just as it finished toppling over. It only ever happens once and if you might not have been close enough to have heard it, it's possible you may have missed it. It was, however, there at one time.

[Sasha Deathtouch]

I know that at one point there was an animation for it falling. I was wandering around in the Arid Sea, heard a rumbling, looked around and saw the statue just as it finished toppling over. It only ever happens once and if you might not have been close enough to have heard it, it's possible you may have missed it. It was, however, there at one time.

I'll take your word for it. I need to play through again with another toon, since the first time through I didn't really pay attention sometimes. :-/

[Gmr Leon]

I know that at one point there was an animation for it falling. I was wandering around in the Arid Sea, heard a rumbling, looked around and saw the statue just as it finished toppling over. It only ever happens once and if you might not have been close enough to have heard it, it's possible you may have missed it. It was, however, there at one time.

Note to self while in the Crystal Desert, keep my ears and eyes open for that. That's kind of funny that you can't hear the rumbling even if you do have the effects volume all the way up. I'll have to get a character over there to see if it happens..

[Quintus Antonius]

There's no animation, however, he is right, there was one at one time in the past. I remember it too. It doesn't happen anymore, I don't know why.

[Gmr Leon]

Well that saves me a bit of time going out and staring at a statue for awhile. That is quite curious that they would remove it, I don't imagine there being a bug from it. Unless it was meant to be a mirage and they decided to cut that bit out to affirm the feeling of it being a mirage.

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, they've changed the game quite a bit since release. It may have been buggy or have been doing something to the game, or maybe the engine just didn't support a smooth animation like that.

[Sasha Deathtouch]

Yeah, 'cause I don't ever remember seeing an animation (though now that I think about it, I do seem to recall hearing a rumbling at one point...)

[Skyy High]

I just thought I should point out that the idea that the statue may or may not be distorted to look further or closer to the Desolation because of some kind of mirage effect doesn't have much bearing on the discussion. The OP didn't measure the distance the statue was from Crystal Overlook by measuring its height, he triangulated it, and as a few others have said before, mirages don't make objects appear to have a lateral displacement.

That said, the argument that we are actually partly in the crystal desert, but we don't recognize it because it has been corrupted since we were last there 3 years ago, is very compelling. The existence of the forgotten in the Arid Sea who can warp you to the Desolation kinda puts a dampener on that theory, however.