[Dev Update]: Domain of Anguish [Archive] - The Unofficial GuildWars Site

Gaile

13-12-2006, 01:49

We appreciate the feedback that we've been receiving from players about their experiences in the Domain of Anguish. We definitely intend that the rewards for exceptional accomplishments, such as those in the DoA, should be suitable. Based on feedback and our own assessments, the design team has decided to make the following changes to the DoA:

Double the rate of drops of gemstones throughout all four regions of the Domain of Anguish. This is beyond the upcoming special weekend drop rate increase. The rate of gemstone drop will double on a permanent basis.
Improve the quantity of some of the items obtained from the Coffer of Whispers. Now, it's important to note that the Coffer of Whispers is a bit of a game of chance, much like the locked chests throughout the game world. Therefore, there will be a wide variance in the items that you receive. Sometimes you'll feel like you've hit the jackpot; other times you'll find you have gotten a good item, but not a great one. We want to assure that you receive those occasional "jackpots" and that you get decent quantities of the good items in other occasions, so that you are properly rewarded for your interactions with the CoW. (Gotta love the new acronyms: I thought DoA was good, but CoW? Tasty! )
Adjust the cost of the Armbrace of Truth to be more reasonable. Instead of 25 gems of each type, the cost will be 15 gems of each type.It's important to note that these areas are repeatable, which answers a question that has been asked a few times. The objective is that players who brave the DoA and succeed will be sure to get valuable items and goods. If players are able to succeed multiple times, their rewards will naturally increase. The improved system will assure that there is a system of "just rewards." The designers hope to have the changes tested and rolled into the game in the near future. Please don't hold me to this -- testing continues -- but this could be in the game by tomorrow, and is sure to be in the game within the week.

We are going to continue to monitor the Domain of Anguish. We want this to be the high-end are of the game, of course, and to retain its specialness and its challenge. It's an Elite area, obviously, and in truth we cannot say that it's intended even for the majority of players. But we certainly intend for it, while challenging, to also be a lot of fun! Please continue to share your thoughts and we'll be reading!

critical vengeance

13-12-2006, 01:51

awesome... now that's cool :D

Master Knightfall

13-12-2006, 01:56

DarkZeal

13-12-2006, 02:02

The only people that won from this update are people that sold their gems for 100k+x ectos already.

Master Knightfall

13-12-2006, 02:03

Laffin I knew it I knew it someone is whinning already laffin

Zingeri

13-12-2006, 02:04

Now the whinners can quit whinning, but, I bet they don't lol Didn't say anything about reducing the difficulty which I am very glad of. Most got a 40% reduction in grind for the gems. I think that's mighty nice of them also. <smile>A 40% reduction of 2.5 million is still 1.5 million.

(Reposting relevant rant from Guru)

Adjust the cost of the Armbrace of Truth to be more reasonable. Instead of 25 gems of each type, the cost will be 15 gems of each typeNot enough. Not even close enough.

I think you misinterpret how much the DoA Gemstones actually cost, Gaile. I'm assuming you know that some gemstones are expensive, even about 100k each. Therefore at 15 of each stone, an Armbrace of Truth would still cost 2+ Million! That's twice as much as FoW armor for a subpar-skinned weapon! (on a related note, why even design Torment Focus!? Who in their right mind would spend 2 million on a Focus?!) Is that the designers' wish?

I suggest that you adjust the price for an Armbrace of Truth all the way down to 5 of each Gemstone. That way, more than one person will actually be able to afford one...

And no, the double gem drops will not dramatically neuter the prices to a reasonable level. Keep in mind that very few people are even doing the mission, therefore the double drops have a significantly less impact!

Scutilla

13-12-2006, 02:07

Thanks a bunch, Gaile. Good to hear that some of the complaints are being addressed. Even though my knee-jerk response to a lot of whining is "stop complaining" (you can't help it after hanging around forums so much :wink:), these changes do sound to be for the better.

I feel bad for anyone who's gotten a scroll or +morale item from a Coffer, so far :sad: (I don't think anyone was able to afford an Ambrace yet.)

@ Zingeri: The prices will go down a LOT, both due to the double drop rate and because of the simple fact that they're a new item. Ambraces will probably end up in the hundreds of plat, but certainly not the thousands.

lavenbb

13-12-2006, 02:11

Master Knightfall

13-12-2006, 02:12

Where do you get these numbers that "very few people are doing the mission"? I always love those that come with these off the wall non proven facts. <smile> Maybe it's because they just aren't good enough? Or invited? Or probably play an assassin and of course broke or very poor. awwwww

Good job Gaile I think it's a very reasonable change. I'm certainly happy. <smile> Don't let these "few, handful, measly" (laffin see I can do it too) whinners push you into "theirway or the highway" principles. <smile> Like my mom always used to say if you give em an inch they'll want to take a mile and if you give em enough rope they'll hang themselves eventually. <smile>

fripple

13-12-2006, 02:13

While I think there are some other changes that could be made, the permanent doubling of gem drops will hopefully help to reduce some of the player rage that's been circulating for the past couple weeks. Maybe in combination with the supposed fixes to mob a.i. it will make the area less irritating to play for people who don't enjoy the mindless frustration it currently presents.

These are all positive changes, even if not everyone, myself included, agrees that they are the complete answer.

eta: Isn't part of the problem of gem drops that there's one in particular that is dramatically more difficult to get than the others? Maybe altering the mob spawn patterns to make them more accessible would also help reduce the annoyance in that respect without altering the apparently sancrosanct difficulty.

IlikeGW

13-12-2006, 02:13

Laffin I knew it I knew it someone is whinning already laffin

Would it kill you to use real sentences and words? I know it's killing me to read your posts.

This is an interesting solution to DoA, although it still leaves people who want to do the quests at the mercy of the same problems (disconnects being the worst, in my opinion, since quests are 3-5 hours on average).

At least the issue of the area overall is being looked at. That's definetly better than leaving it how it launched forever. My thanks to Anet for considering the responses of players.

Zingeri

13-12-2006, 02:15

@ Zingeri: The prices will go down a LOT, both due to the double drop rate and because of the simple fact that they're a new item. Ambraces will probably end up in the hundreds of plat, but certainly not the thousands.Uh..."new item?" Wouldn't that drive the prices up, not down? Supply will increase, Demand will increase. Thus, no change.

Where do you get these numbers that "very few people are doing the mission"? I always love those that come with these off the wall non proven facts. <smile> Maybe it's because they just aren't good enough? Or invited? Or probably play an assassin and of course broke or very poor. awwwww1-2 districts in Gates of Anguish. Proof enough.

logik

13-12-2006, 02:16

ok, first of all its 40% reduction in cost plus the double drop rate, so its twice as easy to get the remaining 60%...
please do not whine, Anet listened and did a very good thing. I can garantee you 90% of the people absultely love the change and don't care that someone still thinks its a lot.
The price of gems will drop to probably around 10k or so. Don't complain that they are expensive.

fripple

13-12-2006, 02:18

1-2 districts in Gates of Anguish. Proof enough.

This is really inarguable. When War Camp first opened, there were large numbers of districts for months afterward. This is the only remotely equivalent area in Nightfall, and it's already nowhere near as populated. It is simply not energizing the community in the same way. I'm not going to get into an argument with anyone about the whole end-game vs elite issue; just agreeing that the area isn't nearly as popular as it could be. That probably explains in large part why these changes are being made.

Ju Smurph

13-12-2006, 02:19

"The longest journey begins with a single step."

Appreciation goes along way too, if nothing more than to be polite.

Master Knightfall

13-12-2006, 02:19

Uh..."new item?" Wouldn't that drive the prices up, not down? Supply will increase, Demand will increase. Thus, no change.

1-2 districts in Gates of Anguish. Proof enough.

And you've been there 24/7 across all servers correct? Europe, Japan, Taiwan, Korea??? Nope 1-2 districts just when you are on aren't enough facts that "few" people are playing it. <smile>

Saint Troy

13-12-2006, 02:22

Scutilla

13-12-2006, 02:22

Uh..."new item?" Wouldn't that drive the prices up, not down? Supply will increase, Demand will increase. Thus, no change.

1-2 districts in Gates of Anguish. Proof enough.
Sorry, I didn't speak very clearly. They're a new item now, so of course their price is high. As time goes on and more of them enter the system, prices will go down. Same with pretty much every green item ever added to the game.

DarkZeal

13-12-2006, 02:23

We all know the lifespan of any given high level area is determined by how much the rewards sell for.

fripple

13-12-2006, 02:25

Warcamp came out months after the release of Prophecies.

Given how soon after the release of Nightfall DoA came out, there are a lot of people who 1) haven't reached the area yet, because they haven't finished the game, or 2) are working on getting additional characters through the game, so are not playing the area yet.

Give it a couple of months, see what happens.

Granted there was pent-up demand for SF. However. Even with an increased supply of playable characters completing the game, demand is not going to increase. That's just now how market forces work. The people with the specific goal of getting specific character classes to DoA are not going to be new people who haven't seen the area before, and the casual players who eventually arrive, as we've already learned, are not going to be successful at it and will quickly drop out. So I'm not seeing how in three months there's suddenly going to be six more full districts. The people who really want to play this area are largely already there.

halfthought

13-12-2006, 02:25

Uh..."new item?" Wouldn't that drive the prices up, not down? Supply will increase, Demand will increase. Thus, no change.

1-2 districts in Gates of Anguish. Proof enough.

not a fair comparison, most people compare this to Dedrimor war camp, but the thing is, DOA can store an upwards of 150+ people, and dedrimor can contain around 40 (meaning on a prime time hour, 450+ people are playing DOA, as there are 1-3 districts)

what do the whiners want? make the ambraces 5 gems each? make it a "care-bear" fun house? Guild wars policy wasnt that skill=amount of cool loot, it was that amount of cool loot =/= good at pvp, so the DOA not casual player friendly ISNT a good comparison, if a-net ever makes it so amount of cool loot=good a pvp, you betcha i'll be ranting, but this is not the case, this is a-net fullfilling some of the people who said PVE is too easy, and now the same people are whining

Zingeri

13-12-2006, 02:29

And you've been there 24/7 across all servers correct? Europe, Japan, Taiwan, Korea??? Nope 1-2 districts just when you are on aren't enough facts that "few" people are playing it. <smile>Uh. Right now, there are only 4 people in the International district, the most populated district of the Europe/Asian regions. Yes, lots of groups forming there.

what do the whiners want? make the ambraces 5 gems each? make it a "care-bear" fun house? Guild wars policy wasnt that skill=amount of cool loot, it was that amount of cool loot =/= good at pvp, so the DOA not casual player friendly ISNT a good comparison, if a-net ever makes it so amount of cool loot=good a pvp, you betcha i'll be ranting, but this is not the case, this is a-net fullfilling some of the people who said PVE is too easy, and now the same people are whiningI'm not proposting a nerf. I just want to actually obtain an Armbrace before 2008.

DarkZeal

13-12-2006, 02:31

Well in China/Taiwan it's only ~7-8 am or something. Not exactly primetime.

ChaoticCoyote

13-12-2006, 02:36

Excellent changes, Gaile. Thank the team for their willingness to listen.

Just to let you know: One fo the primary reasons I play Guild Wars is because I have the feeling that the ANet team listens to us.

Now, just a minor question... is anything being done with the Razah quest? :)

Even with the increased drops, he isn't worth the effort for me; I just don't see a "normal" Ritualist as being worth the current effort required to attain him -- especially when PvP players don;t have any extra cost associated with him.

But if you don't change anything about Razah, I'll still play. :)

fripple

13-12-2006, 02:39

Well in China/Taiwan it's only ~7-8 am or something. Not exactly primetime.

Europe English in the evening, prime time, has had 1-2 districts when I have been there. (Note many European players in the English district are not native speakers, but go there for an easier time finding other players or because their own language is not represented.) And the second one is often empty. That's bad.

Levelor

13-12-2006, 02:39

Zaxares

13-12-2006, 02:39

I'm not proposting a nerf. I just want to actually obtain an Armbrace before 2008.

Out of curiosity, WHY do you want an Armbrace? You said yourself that all the armbraces give you are sub-par weapons as a reward. Why, then, this burning desire to get one?

I've said it before and I'll say it again; obviously, the Tormented items are meant to be the 'Fissure armor' equivalent of weapons. They are intended to be ultra-rare among the player base and involving a great deal of time and effort to get. If you really want one, then you had better be prepared to put in the money and playtime to get one. If not, then sell your gems to the people who DO want such items.

Gaile: Good moves by the developers. :smiley: I believe it will go some ways towards improving the Anguish gemstone situation, without removing the 'prestige' status of the gemstone rewards, which I presume was the intention of ANet with the DoA items.

Buffy Bj Summers

13-12-2006, 02:44

My gripe with this place is that it's not fun. I don't see how increasing the drop rate of gems makes this place more "fun".

In any case, I guess this is a good news overall. People who like DoA can keep DoA the way they like it, plus, it gives DoA fans more reasons to do DoA. Even a DoA hater like me can benefit from this since more gem drops means cheaper gems. Granted, it still won't be cheap to get Razah for 10 characters... but better something than nothing.

Btw, how often do gems drop currently? I've killed quite a few DoA Margonites with 5+ real players (the other slots taken up by heroes) and even did some 5-man farming runs with heroes and have yet to see a single gem drop. I don't know if the heroes just took all the gem drops, or if they're just that rare. Compared to ectos and shards, how is the drop rate?

ChaoticCoyote

13-12-2006, 02:47

This is really inarguable. When War Camp first opened, there were large numbers of districts for months afterward. This is the only remotely equivalent area in Nightfall, and it's already nowhere near as populated. It is simply not energizing the community in the same way. I'm not going to get into an argument with anyone about the whole end-game vs elite issue; just agreeing that the area isn't nearly as popular as it could be. That probably explains in large part why these changes are being made.

Let me first say that I wouldn't bash DoA like many have, and (as I've said elsewhere), I think ANet's changes are very good.

Yet I still find Sorrows Furnace (for example) is more interesting than DoA. For me, DoA feels like a grind; I just don't find DoA any *fun*. Top me, I can get the same effect by exploring Desolation with a party of four -- making the combats hard is easy, on any area of the map, simply be reducing groups size. So I just don;t find DoA interesting merely because the fights are "hard."

Nor do the DoA rewards necessarily appeal to me. Unless the Tormented skins (anyone have screenies yet?) are magnificent, I just don't have a burning desire to attain Razah, or a coffer. My characters have plenty of money from playing the rest of the game.

So DoA doesn't "work" for me (yes, I've cleared two of the areas before coming to this conclusion). Is that bashing ANet? No. Do I demand ANet change DoA to fit my tastes? No. I simply play other parts of the game, and have quite a bit of fun doing so.

ANet can't make every part of the game appeal to every player. People need to stop being so self-centered, and start looking at the broader picture before whining.

Littleming

13-12-2006, 02:48

A 40% reduction of 2.5 million is still 1.5 million.

(Reposting relevant rant from Guru)

Not enough. Not even close enough.

I think you misinterpret how much the DoA Gemstones actually cost, Gaile. I'm assuming you know that some gemstones are expensive, even about 100k each. Therefore at 15 of each stone, an Armbrace of Truth would still cost 2+ Million! That's twice as much as FoW armor for a subpar-skinned weapon! (on a related note, why even design Torment Focus!? Who in their right mind would spend 2 million on a Focus?!) Is that the designers' wish?

I suggest that you adjust the price for an Armbrace of Truth all the way down to 5 of each Gemstone. That way, more than one person will actually be able to afford one...

And no, the double gem drops will not dramatically neuter the prices to a reasonable level. Keep in mind that very few people are even doing the mission, therefore the double drops have a significantly less impact!

If it's such a mediocre skin, then why do you have a problem with not being able to aquire it? I've given up on the DoA. As a dervish I'm pretty sure I won't be able to even attempt it until they increase the max number of heroes to the party limit. That is IF they do.. You can find better weapons from drops or chests just in the regular realm of torment... so why have a fit over one lil mission area?

As far as the "cost of gems" players set that.. not A.Net... There's no way they can regulate that nor do I think they would if they could. It's the way the economy goes. If people will pay 100k for an item then people will charge 100k for an item... If nobody can sell it for 100k, then the price will drop until they find a price that people will pay.

Rinoa Hawkeye

13-12-2006, 03:11

Um, ... what's an "Ambrace of Truth"?

Ora

13-12-2006, 03:16

it's definitely a step in the right direction, since it shows that anet starts to listen ....

But....the key is in this sentence:

. But we certainly intend for it, while challenging, to also be a lot of fun! !

DoA is no fun. Period. I am not talking about difficulty, I am talking about subpar (compared to other areas in GW) design.
All the critics here are simply due to the fact, that we know anet can do a lot better than DoA...
And a hot fix regarding the loot doesn't cure design flaws.

a) it's to dark to play there for a long time. One has to turn up the gamma so far that it makes your eyes hurt after a while. How does that fit to the health warnings ?
b) given the err7 and general d/c probs, the quests take way to long.
c) Fun and challenge come with clever design. A well designed quest in Istan is more fun than the entire DoA. There is no fun in just increasing the number of mobs and their overpowered skills.

.Please continue to share your thoughts and we'll be reading!

lets hope so. Next step: start reading before designing. All that's now been posted about DoA's design flaws has been posted in this forum before...

jvxmtg

13-12-2006, 03:35

Thank for the update Gaile, but it's not enough for me to venture there.

Also the price on the gemstones is high only because people are buying it at the price. Stop buying it and it will stop selling for that price.

Harshateja

13-12-2006, 03:42

Awesome. Solo-farming gemstones usually nets me 4 or 5 every 4 hours...an increased chance is great. I might actually be able to afford an armbrace of truth.

Zingeri

13-12-2006, 03:45

Also the price on the gemstones is high only because people are buying it at the price. Stop buying it and it will stop selling for that price.Stop buying in order to buy at lower prices...

/headache

Buffy Bj Summers

13-12-2006, 03:47

DoA is no fun. Period. I am not talking about difficulty, I am talking about subpar (compared to other areas in GW) design.
All the critics here are simply due to the fact, that we know anet can do a lot better than DoA...
And a hot fix regarding the loot doesn't cure design flaws.

Exactly my thoughts. It's not that DoA is hard because it's not(shocking news to all who think they're "elite" because they like DoA). The way this area is designed, it results in very boring patterns of playing styles. Take for example, SF 5-man gear farming (before nerf) and Tombs b/p. These are both VERY boring places due to the players using the same old builds day in and day out. The difference is that SF and Tombs are boring because the players only using these same builds repeatedly. SF and Tombs can be done with any fun build, using variety of classes and play styles, as long as the players take some skills to deal with what the enemies have to bring. DoA on the other hand, really restricts the builds that players can use. Unlike SF/Tombs where players prevent variety, in DOA, this area itself prevents variety.

Instead of just "bash bash" enemies that use no strategy, crappy builds, artificial conditions to make areas "harder", and only have ridiculous damage going for them (which honestly, are lazy ways of designing "hard" areas in games), I would like to see enemies that consist of dangerous team builds. After all, isn't this what GW is all about? Half the game is team build, while the other half is team strategy. DoA has neither. The "team builds" that DoA enemies use are just random crap. Also, the "strategy" required for DoA is the same old tank/nuker routine. DoA was fun for the first hour when we were trying to figure out a build to use. Once we figured it out, it took all of 30 mins before everybody in our group got bored and quit. Now, we can't get a single player in our alliance to do another DoA run.

Take away the ridiculous damage from these "elite" areas, and give the enemies good team builds. I didn't buy GW for stupid enemies who only have 300 damage going for them. I bought this game due to the fact that it promotes team builds.

One more thing, please do away with an entire area filled with only one type of enemy group. If you look at UW, there are so many variety. Aatxes group, Smite group, Mindblade group, etc. It makes the game more interesting when the area has multiple enemy group types, so that not every single fight for the next 2~3 hours is the same thing over and over and over and over and over... Tombs is very guilty of this routine, as is most of SF. UW and FoW are the only hard areas I can think of, where it doesn't get this repetitive (though starting in the same area against the same enemies each time does get old).

Nubian Fierce

13-12-2006, 03:56

it's definitely a step in the right direction, since it shows that anet starts to listen ....

But....the key is in this sentence:

DoA is no fun. Period. I am not talking about difficulty, I am talking about subpar (compared to other areas in GW) design.
All the critics here are simply due to the fact, that we know anet can do a lot better than DoA...
And a hot fix regarding the loot doesn't cure design flaws.

a) it's to dark to play there for a long time. One has to turn up the gamma so far that it makes your eyes hurt after a while. How does that fit to the health warnings ?
b) given the err7 and general d/c probs, the quests take way to long.
c) Fun and challenge come with clever design. A well designed quest in Istan is more fun than the entire DoA. There is no fun in just increasing the number of mobs and their overpowered skills.

lets hope so. Next step: start reading before designing. All that's now been posted about DoA's design flaws has been posted in this forum before...

One person's design flaw is another persons design perfection. It's a matter of tastes.

a. Darkness is an essential part of the decor in this "night"-fallen area

b. Err 7's still happen in Fow and UW as Well as Deep and Urgoz; even in
regular gameplay... sadly [implement reconnects Gaile, forget this other
crap :)]

c. Fun = Challenge overcome; Frustration = challenge not overcome; Keep
playing you will find less frustration and more fun.

The fact is most players are used to pwning the crap out of the AI. DoA = AI on steroids; perhaps to prevent Solo/2 man runs like UW and 3 man SF, FoW, Urgoz, and Deep runs. That's cool cuz while the AI may be on steroids it is still not smarter than me.

Most casual players gave up on DoA way too soon. It just requires a higher level of concentration and smother tactics. People are now clearing all four areas every day. Compare that to almost noone getting past the first mobs on day 1.

If you are not patient enough to play DoA, then you can't expect those who do play, to give their rewards away for 1K each. If you want to see prices drop then go play. If not then spend all your time here in the forums complaining about it.

Whoa.... wait a second! My bad, you're already doing that.

BTW.. Gaile and the Design Time thanks for knocking 40 days off my time for getting ambrace of truth. Was 100 days at 1 gem a day. Now 60 days. Or 52 got 8 so far. See I'm patient; I don't expect to get it all NOW!

But some people will not be satisfied even if the designers made the ambrace requirement 2 of each gem. Some people on this forum especially take pride in complaining until everything in this game is at the nursery rhyme level. Then they will complain about that. Some of the posts in this thread are clear evidence of that. If ANet reduced DoA mobs by 40% they would still complain. It's just what complainers do. IMO ANet listens to complainers too much. No offence Gaile... I just love this game. Keep it lovable... please?

Razma Dreizehn

13-12-2006, 04:00

Have to agree with Zingeri here.. an update of that scale will simply not make a difference at this point.

Instead of one gemstone drop for one person in a 8 people party if you got to the end but didn't manage to complete, now it's 2 people.. and an additional one if you fully complete the quest..

As the saying goes: the richest get richer, the poorer stay poor.

No, the people that do DoA runs a lot will get their high-end weapons while many people that lack the time, skill, devotion, whatever will be unable to obtain them.

DoA is no fun. Period.

a) it's to dark to play there for a long time. One has to turn up the gamma so far that it makes your eyes hurt after a while. How does that fit to the health warnings ?
b) given the err7 and general d/c probs, the quests take way to long.
c) Fun and challenge come with clever design. A well designed quest in Istan is more fun than the entire DoA. There is no fun in just increasing the number of mobs and their overpowered skills.

I have fun in the DoA. Period.

a) It's supposed to be dark, hence the flashlight item.
b) I have done stygian veil with 6 people. Disconnects happen and they are irritating, but they don't make things impossible.
c) I enjoy the DoA and it's massive mobs.

Scutilla

13-12-2006, 04:01

Um, ... what's an "Ambrace of Truth"?
Once you beat an area in DoA, you get the opportunity to trade in your gems (before 100, now 60) for an Ambrace of Truth. You could then bring it back to town and trade it in for one of the Tormented weapons- it's just a go-between in the process of acquiring a Tormented weapon.

fripple

13-12-2006, 04:09

Of course, all of this is completely irrelevant if it turns out the weapons are ugly. Hint to Anet: all things being equal, people will play through an area more if the rewards they get from it are things they actually want to look at. People didn't like Afflicted junk from Factions when that stuff was new, and they probably like them even less now when they're supposed to be uber. Hopefully the tormented weapons don't look like the regular crap that drops in the area.

Fates Monk

13-12-2006, 04:14

Effective when?

Rinoa Hawkeye

13-12-2006, 04:19

Once you beat an area in DoA, you get the opportunity to trade in your gems (before 100, now 60) for an Ambrace of Truth. You could then bring it back to town and trade it in for one of the Tormented weapons- it's just a go-between in the process of acquiring a Tormented weapon.

Thanks!

So it's pretty much like an Amulet of the Mists...

Kenagalaz

13-12-2006, 04:26

Not enough. Not even close enough.

I think you misinterpret how much the DoA Gemstones actually cost, Gaile. I'm assuming you know that some gemstones are expensive, even about 100k each. Therefore at 15 of each stone, an Armbrace of Truth would still cost 2+ Million! That's twice as much as FoW armor for a subpar-skinned weapon! (on a related note, why even design Torment Focus!? Who in their right mind would spend 2 million on a Focus?!) Is that the designers' wish?

I suggest that you adjust the price for an Armbrace of Truth all the way down to 5 of each Gemstone. That way, more than one person will actually be able to afford one...

And no, the double gem drops will not dramatically neuter the prices to a reasonable level. Keep in mind that very few people are even doing the mission, therefore the double drops have a significantly less impact!

Cost how much?
I have yet to get a single gemstone drop (only from chests) but 15 with double drop makes it sound semi-attainable.
But this makes me sad. I can't wait to get one of these and run around with it, but it makes me sad that my guildmates are already contemplating selling the armbrace for stacks of ecto. As much as I hate the idea, I'll fricken ebay the gold so that they won't sell their freakin armbrace. It saddens me that they would sell such a hard earned trophy for mere gold and ectos to ebayers.

Xerox

13-12-2006, 04:40

Cost how much?
I have yet to get a single gemstone drop (only from chests) but 15 with double drop makes it sound semi-attainable.
But this makes me sad. I can't wait to get one of these and run around with it, but it makes me sad that my guildmates are already contemplating selling the armbrace for stacks of ecto. As much as I hate the idea, I'll fricken ebay the gold so that they won't sell their freakin armbrace. It saddens me that they would sell such a hard earned trophy for mere gold and ectos to ebayers.

Well you have to put in perspective how valuable that item is to them. Personally for my sake. I have around 50k laying in my vault. That in my perspective is worthless. I hate the feeling of not able to buy anything I want. Now I know that sounds weird but seeing things for 100k + xx ecto then looking at my storage makes me think.. "Am I THAT poor?". Now for my sake, im probaly gonna sell the first ambrance (unless the weapons look THAT good) and then use the second one for my warrior.

Ora

13-12-2006, 04:52

I have fun in the DoA. Period.

a) It's supposed to be dark, hence the flashlight item.
b) I have done stygian veil with 6 people. Disconnects happen and they are irritating, but they don't make things impossible.
c) I enjoy the DoA and it's massive mobs.

Yeah, you always have a few masochists around, but they aren't exactly representative when it comes to fun :laugh:

Striken7

13-12-2006, 04:58

Cacheelma

13-12-2006, 05:03

Once you beat an area in DoA, you get the opportunity to trade in your gems (before 100, now 60) for an Ambrace of Truth. You could then bring it back to town and trade it in for one of the Tormented weapons- it's just a go-between in the process of acquiring a Tormented weapon.

I thought it's called ARMBRACE of Truth, isn't it? :shocked:

Buffy Bj Summers

13-12-2006, 05:13

[c. Fun = Challenge overcome; Frustration = challenge not overcome; Keep
playing you will find less frustration and more fun.

The frustration part makes sense, but the fun part... So I guess if I can sit here and complete a "challenge" where the challenge is to tap my fingers on a table a thousand times, this challenge is "fun"...

It's too bad that there are so many people who think that the people who don't like DoA, hate DoA because they can't do DoA. It just leads to a lot of pointless finger pointing and arguing from narrow minded people.

Master Knightfall

13-12-2006, 05:50

As long as it's fun to "some" people that is all that's required. I don't think playing Bingo is fun, but, you have numerous people that play it as often as they can because it's fun to them.

Nothing will ever please everyone, and the ELITE mission was created for the ELITE of GW's. Most of you just aren't elite and therefore do not deserve the rewards. You sit there and only look at all what you think are flaws and bad design, but, it's not. It's great design when you make something so challenging that only the ELITE will overcome.

If you read Gailes comments eariler you will even see she said it wasn't designed with everyone in mind. So, bite the bullet and just accept you aren't part of the elite players of GW's anymore than you aren't in the top 10 of the pvp tournaments.

GAILES COMMENTS: **We want this to be the high-end area of the game, of course, and to retain its specialness and its challenge. It's an Elite area, obviously, and in truth we cannot say that it's intended even for the majority of players. :cloud9:

Zingeri

13-12-2006, 05:58

Chthon

13-12-2006, 05:58

[T]he design team has decided to make the following changes to the DoA:

Double the rate of drops of gemstones throughout all four regions of the Domain of Anguish. This is beyond the upcoming special weekend drop rate increase. The rate of gemstone drop will double on a permanent basis.
Improve the quantity of some of the items obtained from the Coffer of Whispers. Now, it's important to note that the Coffer of Whispers is a bit of a game of chance, much like the locked chests throughout the game world. Therefore, there will be a wide variance in the items that you receive. Sometimes you'll feel like you've hit the jackpot; other times you'll find you have gotten a good item, but not a great one. We want to assure that you receive those occasional "jackpots" and that you get decent quantities of the good items in other occasions, so that you are properly rewarded for your interactions with the CoW. (Gotta love the new acronyms: I thought DoA was good, but CoW? Tasty! )
Adjust the cost of the Armbrace of Truth to be more reasonable. Instead of 25 gems of each type, the cost will be 15 gems of each type.

This is not exactly how I would have addressed the problems with DoA, but it's a start, and I appreciate the fact that the devs have been listening.

I feel, and I think most people would agree (now just watch me get flamed for saying this), that these changes fail to address the two biggest problems with DoA:
(1) Razah. He's still totally out of reach for the average player and still requires an absurdly disproportionate amount of time and effort for the hardcore player. Frankly, fixing Razah's requirements should have taken a much higher priority over fixing the loot problems.
(2) DoA, well, just isn't fun. Or as Ora put it:
DoA is no fun. Period. I am not talking about difficulty, I am talking about subpar (compared to other areas in GW) design.
All the critics here are simply due to the fact, that we know anet can do a lot better than DoA...
And a hot fix regarding the loot doesn't cure design flaws.
a) it's to dark to play there for a long time. One has to turn up the gamma so far that it makes your eyes hurt after a while. How does that fit to the health warnings ?
b) given the err7 and general d/c probs, the quests take way to long.
c) Fun and challenge come with clever design. A well designed quest in Istan is more fun than the entire DoA. There is no fun in just increasing the number of mobs and their overpowered skills.
lets hope so. Next step: start reading before designing. All that's now been posted about DoA's design flaws has been posted in this forum before...

Zehnchu

13-12-2006, 06:35

Come on this is a great update, you should be happy.

Just think about the first time being repeatedly wiped out by the first group, with the thought of getting one to none chance in getting a gem you knew that if you could kill this group your goal of getting the required gems where still far away.

And now with this update you have something to look forward to. While you are still being repeatedly wiped out by that same first group again and again just like your first trip here. You now know you have twice to nothing change in getting the gems you need.

The thought of those who use cookie cutter build which Anet doesn’t want to balance and that don’t require skill calling themselves elitist laughing at you, selling you gems for 100k+ecto’s.

And think you are no where closer getting double the gem drops for the four gems you need to obtain the only broken term of “chapter related” no use to non-factions owners the only Ritualist in the game will all be possible all due to the doubling of drops of gems.

Hmmm…did I mention that I am not the best at cheering people up?

lavenbb

13-12-2006, 06:37

The frustration part makes sense, but the fun part... So I guess if I can sit here and complete a "challenge" where the challenge is to tap my fingers on a table a thousand times, this challenge is "fun"...

It's too bad that there are so many people who think that the people who don't like DoA, hate DoA because they can't do DoA. It just leads to a lot of pointless finger pointing and arguing from narrow minded people.

Quoted for truth.

For the more elitist of my fellow forumites, the "challenges" presented in DoA can be overcome in the quickest manner, by having an aggro anchor with damage reduction skills, bonder, healer, and as many meteor showers / feasts of corruption as you can fit into the build. You see, many skills are involved.

Kenagalaz

13-12-2006, 06:49

Quoted for truth.

For the more elitist of my fellow forumites, the "challenges" presented in DoA can be overcome in the quickest manner, by having an aggro anchor with damage reduction skills, bonder, healer, and as many meteor showers / feasts of corruption as you can fit into the build. You see, many skills are involved.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4579280&postcount=480

lavenbb

13-12-2006, 07:21

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4579280&postcount=480

Um.. if you quoted me because you think your post refuted my point, you didn't. You just posted another cookie cutter build. One with 4-6 prot spirits in it.

It's respectable that people are willing to post their newest most cutting-edge cookie cutter complete with game manual so even the dumbest of dumbs can copy. I have to ask though, how's this different from what we had before?

Just because an area can be completed does not mean it is enjoyable. I can also play prot spirit spam over and over and over again, or just shelter it... Eventually I'll get to the same point, I don't forsee myself doing that anytime soon, though.

It is still very much true that DoA seems to limit builds more than encourage builds. I've been in teams with innovative skill combinations and teams with the same old setup. So far the same old tank nuke heal (with little variations here and there) are winning.

Kenagalaz

13-12-2006, 08:02

Um.. if you quoted me because you think your post refuted my point, you didn't. You just posted another cookie cutter build. One with 4-6 prot spirits in it.

It's respectable that people are willing to post their newest most cutting-edge cookie cutter complete with game manual so even the dumbest of dumbs can copy. I have to ask though, how's this different from what we had before?

Just because an area can be completed does not mean it is enjoyable. I can also play prot spirit spam over and over and over again, or just shelter it... Eventually I'll get to the same point, I don't forsee myself doing that anytime soon, though.

It is still very much true that DoA seems to limit builds more than encourage builds. I've been in teams with innovative skill combinations and teams with the same old setup. So far the same old tank nuke heal (with little variations here and there) are winning.
Actually, shelter won't last long enough as it gets shredded to pieces instantly, and PS is such an expensive skill that if you only spam it, you'll run out of skills to heal and attack with, even with a bipper. Even with PS, because the large size of mobs, you still need to kite and use map terrain to fight and stay alive. Beyond that there's alot of enchantment strippers that you need to pay attention and take those into account.

It's true, you can go mindless nukers, but to the average pug, that may be the "winning" build. But if any tiny thing goes wrong, it becomes unrecoverable. It doesn't have the ability to fight through broken agro. only to run and rez allies and try again. Beyond that, it's these "same old tank nuke heal" build that take 5-9 hours to beat these quests. SS/Backfire/Empathy/Spoil Victor/reckless haste are important skills that are required to effectively take down key elements of mobs.

Like I said before. You can get by with the old tank and nuke pug builds, but expect it to take 2-3 times longer. If you want to speed things up to managable times, you'll need to play with a bit more skill and wit.

Empraim Wainwright

13-12-2006, 08:05

Very cool, thanks for sharing :smiley:
It will be interesting to see the effect of such changes...

lavenbb

13-12-2006, 08:41

Actually, shelter won't last long enough as it gets shredded to pieces instantly, and PS is such an expensive skill that if you only spam it, you'll run out of skills to heal and attack with, even with a bipper. Even with PS, because the large size of mobs, you still need to kite and use map terrain to fight and stay alive. Beyond that there's alot of enchantment strippers that you need to pay attention and take those into account.

It's true, you can go mindless nukers, but to the average pug, that may be the "winning" build. But if any tiny thing goes wrong, it becomes unrecoverable. It doesn't have the ability to fight through broken agro. only to run and rez allies and try again. Beyond that, it's these "same old tank nuke heal" build that take 5-9 hours to beat these quests. SS/Backfire/Empathy/Spoil Victor/reckless haste are important skills that are required to effectively take down key elements of mobs.

Like I said before. You can get by with the old tank and nuke pug builds, but expect it to take 2-3 times longer. If you want to speed things up to managable times, you'll need to play with a bit more skill and wit.

Actually, I'm a rit and had successfully run shelter in all areas, you just need a disrupter or a GoR mistrust or maybe just not stand in a tight bunch... Regardless, the aggro anchor, healer, prot, and a whole bunch of nuking is still the sure fire way to get thru pve regardless of situation. Not that that is a problem, but unfortunately, 2/3 of the skills in GW are still not needed in PvE.

Walks With Angels

13-12-2006, 08:51

Great news about the upcoming changes, thank you Anet. :sunny:

Kenagalaz

13-12-2006, 08:54

Actually, I'm a rit and had successfully run shelter in all areas, you just need a disrupter or a GoR mistrust or maybe just not stand in a tight bunch... Regardless, the aggro anchor, healer, prot, and a whole bunch of nuking is still the sure fire way to get thru pve regardless of situation. Not that that is a problem, but unfortunately, 2/3 of the skills in GW are still not needed in PvE.

no it's not, if you don't mind taking 2-3 times longer doing these quests

tepidbroth

13-12-2006, 08:55

We are going to continue to monitor the Domain of Anguish. We want this to be the high-end are of the game, of course, and to retain its specialness and its challenge. It's an Elite area, obviously, and in truth we cannot say that it's intended even for the majority of players.

Thanks for the post Gaile. I don't know if you've been reading about the Razah "moans". I myself made a poll shortly after DoA came out asking if players thought that Razah should be moved from DoA and into a separate (non-Elite) quest. Two thirds were in favour (roughly). Another poll was posted a week ago by someone else asking, again, if players favoured a change to the Razah mission. You've said yourself (in the quoted text above) that the majority of players aren't intented to play in DoA because of it's sheer complexity. For those more casual players like myself who tend to stay away from farming and l33t areas it basically means that Razah is out of reach. Was this intended? And is it possible to do what (according to the polls) most of us have been asking for and move Razah into a separate quest?

Scyfer

13-12-2006, 09:05

A 40% reduction of 2.5 million is still 1.5 million.

Riiiiight, 2.5 million. That's what they'll cost in a week, or a month, with double droprate. :huh:

So... don't buy them? FFS :/ I'm with Scutilla; I have the same knee-jerk response. There's constructive criticism and there's ranting/whining.

I see a lot of people doing the mission (and you know, Saturday/Friday afternoon/nights would be the time to check... not Monday nights, or 11am Wednesdays); more than I'd expect from all the complaints that DoA is dead/a flop etc. You people are totally ridiculous - the ones saying X is dead. There are exactly how many more things to do as compared to when SF first came out? How many other places people are playing? :huh:

lavenbb

13-12-2006, 09:07

no it's not, if you don't mind taking 2-3 times longer doing these quests

Apparently there's a barrier of communication between us.

but no fret, there's a more detailed analysis of the problem by FrogDevourer over at Guru, titled "Chapter 4: an alternative to Brute Force ?"

Edit: After reading some of the responses there I have one supplement.

If you think backfire is not part of nuking, think again. In PvE, monsters will cast through backfire, making it a spike skill. It IS part of nuking, which I will now clarify since I didn't before, nuking means damage overload, so in essense, you out damage the monster's overpowered skills. That is why DoA is limiting builds.

Scyfer

13-12-2006, 09:14

Also: people keep saying that DoA is no fun. WELL why don't you outline exactly what isn't fun about it? Compared to say, Urgoz or the Deep, which seem like less fun to me (esp Urgoz). The only reason people aren't going on about Urgoz/Deep being no fun is because the access is restricted, so only people that want a challenge, have access and have a coordinated group go and play there. This is what happens when you let everyone into an elite mission ;) Half the people will start nitpicking about optional content.

upier

13-12-2006, 09:14

ohh i still am not gonna be playing it. its not the mission for me and i am fine with it.
what would be nice is if they fixed the thing that needs to be fixed - getting razzy. move him out of the mission - since hes not as big of a bait for some of us to even go there. the ppl that love the difficulty will still play it there - especially since the better rewards (which i can only give praise for - since better rewards are never bad in my eyes) and those that dont consider it fun wont be forced to play it just to get razzy.
so there - move razzy out of there and make the mission REALLY optional (and dont say that nobody is holding a gun to my head to get razzy - hes more then a vanity item, hes a hench with no suitable replacemnet in the game - which makes him a must to get on chars that you plan on evolving through future chapters). but till then - thanks for the changes - they seems superb (id love them if i was playing there) - and think of razzy!

Longasc

13-12-2006, 09:27

I think it is nice that the CoW now seems to offer a more reasonable chance, as well that more Gems drop.

But I am mainly with Buffy and Ora.

DoA rewards were one thing - but people do not like it for other reasons which are by far more important.

It is the design and gameplay there, not so much the difficulty actually. Those who simply cannot do DoA - call them non-elite, and this is probably more than 75% - have a problem with Razah being there.

Fighting Mobs in DoA just feels wrong, you must rely on very artificial tactics to have success.

There are so many cool ideas, I especially like the Ravenheart Gloom and the Stygian Veil. The brilliant shard was a brilliant idea.

But just think about the reports regarding the Black Beast of Aaargh. It becomes too often more a chore that feels unfair than a tough challenge.

Rob Van Der Sloot

13-12-2006, 09:35

Serendipity

13-12-2006, 09:37

Just 15 gems?

What the hell are people complaining about? Most gems are going for 30k or less already. Only the titan gem is still rather pricy. But 15 gems, come on. FoW armor is far more expensive than that.

And will double drops the price will be further divided by two at least.

We will soon be at the 10k range.

Cérilia

13-12-2006, 09:38

c. Fun = Challenge overcome; Frustration = challenge not overcome; Keep
playing you will find less frustration and more fun.
Fun and challenge are too words that are opposite in my book. For me Challenge overcome = Sense of accomplishment but certainly not fun. So I think we all have different definitions of what is fun. I remember explaining to PvP player why (for roughly the same reasons) I don't find PvP fun but stressful, now it's the same with DoA.
That doesn't mean that I want Anet to change it. As long as there are people like you who find that "challenge overcome = fun" then it is imo a good thing that there are areas like DoA.

Most casual players gave up on DoA way too soon. It just requires a higher level of concentration and smother tactics. People are now clearing all four areas every day. Compare that to almost noone getting past the first mobs on day 1.
Yes that may be true. I was here on day one. I saw in one area a mob of 12 level 28 margonites every one hitting for 50-400 damage everytime and I knew that I would never enjoy playing here.
I already disliked Realm of Torment (though I loved the rest of NF!) which was, in my opinion, already far too hard to be any fun, so it was without surprise that I disliked DoA.

Sir Jack

13-12-2006, 09:51

We all know the lifespan of any given high level area is determined by how much the rewards sell for.

Yes, that's why people still play SF. Because the greens sell for loads still. Oh wait, NO THEY DON'T.

Sorry, I didn't speak very clearly. They're a new item now, so of course their price is high. As time goes on and more of them enter the system, prices will go down. Same with pretty much every green item ever added to the game.

FoW armor and Vabbian. Technically, FoW was added when the game was released. As more and more people found out about it, prices rose. A lot. Then the whole market reset screwed prices pretty much forever. While they were 9k before the reset, they jumped to 19k after that. Due to farm builds, the price steadily came down, since the demand = supply from 55ers.
Vabbian Armor: Some people had bought a lot of gems in advance at relative low prices, so people were ready for them. Despite there being a rather large supply already for them and alternative ways to get them (Trade Contracts) the price keeps going and going since the supply is too low and the demand is pretty huge.
These are not ordinary items. They require 60 hard to get gems, much like armor. Not all greens drop as much either. While most SF greens dropped because there are better equivalent weapons elsewhere, some (like Bortak's Set and Drago's) have rissen in time, reached it's peak and are now steady at still a rather high amount. The reason for that is they're not easily gotten but easy enough, they have a steady supply and a steady demand. These gems are not easily gotten, have a very low supply (especially Titan ones) and a huge demand. Titan gems and the other one (not Margonite and Stygian) will be rising still before going down. If people stop playing, the price will keep rising instead of dropping.

The update will hopefully help to put prices at a reasonable amount eventually. Especially since they're also needed for Razah (*hint*hint*).
I also agree with Zingeri, Ora and Buffy on their views. The area simply isn't fun to play.

Kenagalaz

13-12-2006, 10:04

Apparently there's a barrier of communication between us.

but no fret, there's a more detailed analysis of the problem by FrogDevourer over at Guru, titled "Chapter 4: an alternative to Brute Force ?"

Edit: After reading some of the responses there I have one supplement.

If you think backfire is not part of nuking, think again. In PvE, monsters will cast through backfire, making it a spike skill. It IS part of nuking, which I will now clarify since I didn't before, means damage overload.
I have read it... and I think you are getting your terminologies mixed up and saying things without truely understanding the posts, mine and FrogDevourer

nuke and spike are very different. nuke is a heavy AoE attack that damages multiple targets at once while spike is a focused attack on a single specific target.

yes, the 1 tank + bunch of nuker build may be EASY, but like i've described before, it's very slow because of it's stop and go and stop and go pace and therefore takes LONGER. On the otherhand, balanced. ie builds that run a diverse distribution of skills (ie attack skills plus PS and healing on one bar) are capable of extended combat (fighting through multiple mobs without any breaks) and ability withstand grueling conditons, ie fighitng in a broken agro. But you should have already know that if you've actually ran balanced vs cookie cutter builds, which leads me to believe that you don't actually understand the difference very well.

Cookie cutter builds are just that. they are pre-defined template builds that PUGs like to run with highly simplified and specialized roles.
for example.the cookie cutter build posted for the foundry. It consists of nukers with only fire skills, a bonder, a monk with only prot skills and a monk with only healing skills + necrotic traversal.

With that in mind, we have beaten each quest multiple times with multiple builds because we are a guild group and group composition is highly variable and depends on who's on and who's got what character as oppose to waiting in AD1 waiting for the next echo nuker. and we build teams around what characters we have available and not what the cookie cutter builds require. We don't "practice" runs before hand, and instead aim for completion on the first try. We do the math on what skills are absolutely necessary and fill in the left over slots to maximize what we want to do. We don't waste time with trial and error or practice. We intellegently design from what we have and what we need and where we're going on a daily bases.

We (independantly of others) pioneered the area and did not copy or coin cookie cutter builds.

Following with the given anaology. It's true, most people have to keep rolling the dice to try to get one. In elite missions, (UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz/DoA) Anet made it difficult to do that by requring you to roll multiple die and get all ones on all of them. Most people stop there, and they give up. What they fail to see is that Anet also gives you the tools to engineer those die. To make them weighted, put velkro on one side or paint them with some sort of sticky glue, allow you to throw then non randomly so that you can increase to probability of getting a 1 from 1/6 to 0.99999.
Can you do it either way? yes
Does the expected ammount of time it takes change using a method that gives you a 1 on the dice with probability 1/6 vs probability 0.9999? yes

This is what divides skill and "brute force"

If it seems boring, if it seems long, if it seems repetative and slow, it's because you're brute forcing it instead of using skill.
Actually, I'm a rit and had successfully run shelter in all areas, you just need a disrupter or a GoR mistrust or maybe just not stand in a tight bunch... that is a very SLOW way to do it that's repetative and boring.
Mere PS spamming drains your energy and reduces your cast time for attack skills. this will make you progress slow and make things repatative and drawn out.
Minimizing PS and maximizing kiting but using just as much as you need can keep a party up indefinately against any mob exponentially improving the time it takes to do quests.
and if you've been able to do that in the past, I wouldn't have had to explain this to you.
Brute force = grind, skill = quick elegant solution.

So I recommend you go back read and try to learn and understand some of these vocabulary like nuke vs spike and balanced vs cookie cutter. And most importantly the line that divides brute forcing and skill.

Ayarie

13-12-2006, 10:09

Nothing will ever please everyone, and the ELITE mission was created for the ELITE of GW's. Most of you just aren't elite and therefore do not deserve the rewards. You sit there and only look at all what you think are flaws and bad design, but, it's not. It's great design when you make something so challenging that only the ELITE will overcome.

If you read Gailes comments eariler you will even see she said it wasn't designed with everyone in mind. So, bite the bullet and just accept you aren't part of the elite players of GW's anymore than you aren't in the top 10 of the pvp tournaments. You're just an average joe with an average life and most of the game is made for you. This portion is not....get used to it. <smile>

GAILES COMMENTS: **We want this to be the high-end area of the game, of course, and to retain its specialness and its challenge. It's an Elite area, obviously, and in truth we cannot say that it's intended even for the majority of players. :cloud9:

<Smile>
Yes - As others have described DoA wasnt designed for the marjority - Only Eles,Monks,Warriors playing a strict few builds.

<Smile>
Yes - Elite means playing Cookie Cutters - Just look at the amount of cookie cutters that win HA - The Populous KNOWS that Cookie Cutters are 1337 - they really <smile> Dont need you <smile> to tell them <giggle>.

<Smile>
I think personally <Giggle> Anet should put a warning on the character select screen under Mezmers/Assasins especially and a slighlt smaller warning under dervishes/paragons/necromancers/rangers/ritualist "WILL NOT BE INVITED TO ELITE AREAS CAUSE YOUR NOT 1337 ENOUGH" <smile & giggle>

I totally agree!

On the other hand hopefully they said they would continue to read feed back on the mission itself

Naru

Longasc

13-12-2006, 10:12

Your blabla lecture of lavenbb is absolutely unnecessary.

Absolutely silly elitist attitude while assuming he is dumb as a bump.

Kenagalaz

13-12-2006, 10:18

Your blabla lecture of lavenbb is absolutely unnecessary.

Absolutely silly elitist attitude while assuming he is dumb as a bump.

If I assumed he was "dumb as a bump" there would be no reason for me to explain anything since he could never possibly comprehend it.
But from what he says, it seems readily apparent that he's merely only inexperienced and misinformed.
although you may not be able to tell the difference.

and "But just think about the reports regarding the Black Beast of Aaargh. It becomes too often more a chore that feels unfair than a tough challenge."
we took him down in less than 10 seconds. it really wasn't a chore at all, and was actually pretty fun

crzay diamond

13-12-2006, 10:30

I love how people keep going on about how elite DoA is. Get over yourselves, it isn't. I did it, and I consider myself a moderate player.

Don't get me wrong. Yes it is hard, very hard. Oh and it takes a long time, yes it does. But that doesn't automatically make it "elite" by any stretch. Unless you think overwhelming numbers of mobs that outlevel you, spiking you for insane amounts, while you suffer degenerative effects is something only a master strategist would come up with. It isn't. In fact, it's the laziest form of added difficulty you can come up with. It's the kind of "difficulty" I expect unimaginative munchkin players to come up with. Not from the actual game designers. Which is why I find it dissapointing.

I can assure you that most of the people who've finished this, have done so more out of persistence than any so-called "elite" skill. I'm sorry, having the three, four, or more hours to spend in that hole while nursing a near-constant -60% DP using cookie-cutter builds does not make you "elite".

Longasc

13-12-2006, 10:33

and "But just think about the reports regarding the Black Beast of Aaargh. It becomes too often more a chore that feels unfair than a tough challenge."
we took him down in less than 10 seconds. it really wasn't a chore at all, and was actually pretty fun

Yes, read the posting of crzay diamond below, you can shove this. Really. :rolleyes:

Kenagalaz

13-12-2006, 10:34

I can assure you that most of the people who've finished this, have done so more out of persistence than any so-called "elite" skill. I'm sorry, having the three, four, or more hours to spend in that hole while nursing a near-constant -60% DP using cookie-cutter builds does not make you "elite".

I've posted this elsewhere, but i'll put it here it was a follow up to the linked thread after someone asked how it was possible to beat foundry in 3 hours when the average pug was doing it between 7-9 hours.

Gloom took about 1 1/2
City took about 1 1/2
Stygian took about 2 hours
Foundry took about 3 hours
Note: these are the times it took to complete these quests the first time. subsequent runs have been shorter

I haven't bother to PUG Foundry and after my experience yesterday, i've lost all desire to. Like I said, from my experience, the two most time consuming events in DoA is due to waiting for glyph sac MS to recharge and deaths/retreat-disengaging. Clearing the first room takes less than 5 min if you don't take any deaths. and we can usually clear the first mob in the second room without taking any deaths. We usually take a couple of deaths in the second room, but rapid rebirth/res chant (choose appropriately) + BiP allows us to fight through the death.

Again, Prot Spirit is your friend, lots of copies, one on each monk, ele, and bip. You can usually predict who needs a PS by looking for Gale and burning as usually a spike follows it. and proper spreading out. We have people keeping on eye out on key targets. "Meteor!" "Invoke!" "Gernade!" or "ACK AHHH!" usually signifies a powerful AoE coming down and is usually followed by 5 simultaneous PSs flying up on different targets (realise sometimes you will have to cancel your current action to get the PS up in time) When you have that many PS, LoD on the heal Mo and HP on BiP keeps all health bars up.

You can kill real fast and they're high levels that you gain XP fast and rapidly work off DP. At any given time, I don't think anyone's DP dropped below 30%DP except maybe the SS/Backfire N/Me (who occasionally had to enter agro to backfire/ss a Ki without the ability to PS himself). Again, our main source of damage wasn't MS and we didn't take glyph sac nor waited for MS to recharge.

In the third room, if there's a few ppl left, our trapper tanks while the warrior goes off to agro some more monsters before we finish off what we're currently fighting. We also keep more than the warrior and ranger on the otherside of the gate at any given time in any room. this is espcially true in the fourth room, since they like to run to the far end of the room if they break agro.

DP works against you especially during the second quest. is PS can frequently get shattered (but it's a good cover for Attunements). However, if you have too much DP, you'll die from PS shattering. If you managed to get there without too much DP, you can live through a shatter and usually get a PS back on before they can hit you again (and get healed) but this requires a high level of attentiveness. There's plenty of places to funnel or use corners to control agro in the last room. and You can usually fight more than 1 mob at a time if you can pull them to those key spots strategicly.

so the #1 way to reduce time is simply _Not Die_
the #2 way to reduce time is to not wait so long between fights.

Raven Flameheart

13-12-2006, 10:44

<Smile>
Yes - As others have described DoA wasnt designed for the marjority - Only Eles,Monks,Warriors playing a strict few builds.

<Smile>
Yes - Elite means playing Cookie Cutters - Just look at the amount of cookie cutters that win HA - The Populous KNOWS that Cookie Cutters are 1337 - they really <smile> Dont need you <smile> to tell them <giggle>.

<Smile>
I think personally <Giggle> Anet should put a warning on the character select screen under Mezmers/Assasins especially and a slighlt smaller warning under dervishes/paragons/necromancers/rangers/ritualist "WILL NOT BE INVITED TO ELITE AREAS CAUSE YOUR NOT 1337 ENOUGH" <smile & giggle>

I totally agree!

On the other hand hopefully they said they would continue to read feed back on the mission itself

Naru

uhm ... First of all, that's nothing to do with Anet. They can't change player mentality in any update. In fact, DoA goes against the traditional model, and the scribe mention the importance of spike damage vs Enraged, and shutdown / snare + kiting is much more effective here than the typical "Let them hit our guy in front and we'll heal up the damage". Essentially, this area was designed with the likes of mesmers and assassins in mind. The fact that no one realizes it is hardly fixable.

Secondly, it seems you wouldn't complain if there was a cookie build that used, say, 2 mesmers, 2 assassins, 2 Rits, a necro and a dervish. Just because it's a cookie-cutter doesn't mean it's only a few classes.

Thirdly, HA != DoA. Don't make comparisons, they're dangerous. Although come to think about it, although cookie-cutters do win HA, a well put together origional build can and will beat a cookie-cutter.

I welcome the update, it balances difficulty vs reward, which everything should be about.

Tai Taiho

13-12-2006, 10:52

<Smile>
Yes - As others have described DoA wasnt designed for the marjority - Only Eles,Monks,Warriors playing a strict few builds.

<Smile>
Yes - Elite means playing Cookie Cutters - Just look at the amount of cookie cutters that win HA - The Populous KNOWS that Cookie Cutters are 1337 - they really <smile> Dont need you <smile> to tell them <giggle>.

<Smile>
I think personally <Giggle> Anet should put a warning on the character select screen under Mezmers/Assasins especially and a slighlt smaller warning under dervishes/paragons/necromancers/rangers/ritualist "WILL NOT BE INVITED TO ELITE AREAS CAUSE YOUR NOT 1337 ENOUGH" <smile & giggle>

I totally agree!

On the other hand hopefully they said they would continue to read feed back on the mission itself

Naru

lol, Naru, I laughed for quite some time after reading this reply. *giggles more* :heart:

Personally, I think it would be nice if every profession had the same chances to get a group to try DoA. This doesn't apply only for the elite area, it's a problem with groups in general.
I think every class should be seen as useful.
I know it's very hard to change the opinion of the community, but the developers have some means to influence it by adding and changing skills or game mechanics. The news about nerfed and enchanced skills/builds fly very quickly, I noticed. But for some reason, certain professions just can't get rid of the stigma. :sad:

About the changes in DoA: if rewards are more suitable to the difficulty of the area and more attainable, that's certainly good. :smiley:
But as far as I'm concerned, I doubt I'll venture into it.
I really don't care about being an "elite" player who finished the "elite" quest and mission.
I don't know, this whole thing about being or not being elite really started to have a negative connotation for me.
I don't mind if others enjoy it, I'm very happy with having the rest of the game.

If I get a normal way to obtain a ritualist hero (I don't know why a ritualist hero should be considered more elite that any other hero, at least by funcionality), I don't ask for nothing more.

Juiced

13-12-2006, 11:02

I think you misinterpret how much the DoA Gemstones actually cost, Gaile. I'm assuming you know that some gemstones are expensive, even about 100k each. Therefore at 15 of each stone, an Armbrace of Truth would still cost 2+ Million! That's twice as much as FoW armor for a subpar-skinned weapon! (on a related note, why even design Torment Focus!? Who in their right mind would spend 2 million on a Focus?!) Is that the designers' wish?
When u buy the first new ferrari u will most likely pay more then when u wait and buy the 200th. Gems are new, so they are more rare and expensive, since GW is full of collectors and full of traders most gems are either sold now the profit is high, or stored for later use. Once more and more are stored, more will be traded, some gems are already way cheaper than they were in the beginning, since they are easier to get a hold of (trap farming, necro travel behind bars and lure with hero in Stygian). All it takes for prices to go down is stabilize, besides, if u act as how ur intended to act u just be patient and if u play regularly in DoA u will get ur drops, which means u can either sell them and rebuy later, or keep them for later use. Whining here won't make u any better. It's something u can look forward to, not something u can have right now, without any effort.

Now u whine because it's too expensive to get a hold on, if they made gems drop very regular traders will whine there are no decent 'expensive' items around, except the bloody ecto. Now price of FoW armor is way lower than price of an item traded in for gems, but in the beginning FoW was also very rare and expensive, since there were less ecto's and shards into the trade system.

I'm just glad they didn't adjust the quests and missions, and only the drop rates and costs of stuff :smiley:

Kakashi Chan

13-12-2006, 11:03

Glad to see work being done based upon player feedback. With my (sometimes many) gripes, things like this are why I continue to play GW. I'm confident if this fix wasn't quite right, that things will be reworked slightly again in the future.

Glacius Cool

13-12-2006, 11:04

YAY GAILE! WOOT

I love DoA even though I haven't gotten past the first couple mobs :)

Devona says it best: "If it's not hard, it's not worth winning"

Scyfer

13-12-2006, 11:13

YAY GAILE! WOOT

I love DoA even though I haven't gotten past the first couple mobs :)

Devona says it best: "If it's not hard, it's not worth winning"

Seriously :) Same here. I like running around, testing builds, getting creamed, running for chests (the chests alone make the area fun for me - hello titles :laugh: )

We have people keeping on eye out on key targets. "Meteor!" "Invoke!" "Gernade!" or "ACK AHHH!" usually signifies a powerful AoE coming down and is usually followed by 5 simultaneous PSs flying up on different targets (realise sometimes you will have to cancel your current action to get the PS up in time) When you have that many PS, LoD on the heal Mo and HP on BiP keeps all health bars up.

Wait, ok, so you mean PUGs at DoA _aren't_ doing this? There are enough /Mos around there; I'd assume everyone had PS + Rebirth. I mean it's sort of common sense - dozens of lvl 28+ monsters dumping hundreds of damage on everyone means some sort of preventative action has to be taking place, and im my experience Shelter lasts exactly 1-3 seconds.

What exactly are the people complaining about the impossibility of DoA bringing then? (This is aimed not at Ken but at people who say the area is impossible to PUG - did you guys have any coordinated effort in preventing damage? ;))

*I have done exactly 0 pick up groups in the area, just soloing/exploring. However I have been watching someone play the DoA for the last week, with PUGs, disconnects, and like..... 10 minute breaks in between fighting. Of course it took 4+hrs then.

Scyfer

13-12-2006, 11:30

double post :undecided:

kravex

13-12-2006, 12:27

It's an Elite area, obviously, and in truth we cannot say that it's intended even for the majority of players.

In regards to this comment, can you please explain why one of the Hero's then is 'not intended for the majority of players' when all the other are?

Still glad to see that things are getting a bit easier, but I don't have the time to put into the game to get the last Hero for my toon I just wish he wasn't such a hard reward.

Rob Van Der Sloot

13-12-2006, 14:06

Sir Jack

13-12-2006, 14:20

The average gemstone is actually 25k, only the titan gem is 100k. So that's 375k, waaaaaaaaaaay cheaper than fow armor. And it doesn't require actually playing RoA at all. And if prices for gems drop even further, to about 10k a piece, then you need only pay 150k for one armbrace of truth.

So:

Armbrace of truth: 150k-375k

Fow armor:

120 Ectos at 8k a piece = 960k,
120 shards at 3k a piece = 360k,
+ various other rare materials,
+ 15k crafting costs per armor piece = 75k
------------------------------------------
Total costs for the average Fow armor = 1395k+

How did you get 375k? 3 gems of each aren't used anywhere...

Your "argument":That's under the assumption that gem prices will drop that low while Ecto and shard prices will stay the same. In a similar way, I can say that Charr carving prices will rise during the X-mas event, and will continue to rise after that until a stack of 250 is worth more then FoW armor...

100k for Titan and 30k for the other 3 = 190k times 15 = 2.85 million
Your FoW cost: 1.395 million
Difference: 1.5 million (1.485 to be exact)

Rob Van Der Sloot

13-12-2006, 14:24

Ah, yes, small calculation error, I stand corrected:

15 X Margonite Gemstone for 25k = 375k

15 X Anguish Gemstone for 25k = 375k

15 X Torment Gemstone for 25k = 375k

15 X Titan Gemstone for 100k = 1500k

-----------------------------------------
So between 1200k* and 2625k**.

* (if prices drop to 10k per gem, and 50k for the titan gem)
** (if prices remain at 25k per gem, and 100k for the titan gem)

So if the prices drop in the next few weeks then it will cost less than fow armor, otherwise it will cost more. As for the prices for ectos and shards, ectos are actually 8,5k right now, but you can buy them from players for 7k-8k. Ectos tend to hover between 6k and 8,5k. Shards tend to remain between 3k-4k.

Keep in mind that fow armor actually costs more than 1395k, as I didn't add the cost of the rare crafting materials (the type of which is different for each proffesion).

De Daniel

13-12-2006, 14:30

lol im just at 17 of each gemstone and now its cheaper :)))) can get my tormented weapon now!!!!! (axe).

vader

13-12-2006, 14:39

c. Fun = Challenge overcome; Frustration = challenge not overcome; Keep
playing you will find less frustration and more fun.

Wow. This statement is so wrong its not even funny. Your statement suggests that if you keep trying at something, you are guaranteed to succeed at it. So very untrue.

Harshateja

13-12-2006, 15:31

Wow. This statement is so wrong its not even funny. Your statement suggests that if you keep trying at something, you are guaranteed to succeed at it. So very untrue.

You are guaranteed to succeed, granted you try an unlimited amount of times. At the very least, you aren't guaranteed to fail - as you would be had you not even attempted to try.

NameAlreadyInUse

13-12-2006, 15:31

Gaile, first off, thanks for the update. Nice to see the devs you work with there are at least thinking about these things and starting to adjust things a bit here and there.

That being said I see this as a good start but maybe not the final answer. For one, I agree with some of the posters here that the 'fun factor' of the area is lacking (for me anyway, but I may well just belong to that majority who are really supposed to be there in the first place, I can live with that). For another thing, I really disagree with the notion that the only rit hero in the game is not intended for the majority of players.

Then again, what that is actually telling me (but I'm in a foul mood after a terrible commute to work thismorning and may just be overly sensitive right now) is that Razah is only not intended for a majority of PvE players. After all, he can be unloced for PvP with minimal effort in the arenas, probably, what, an hour or two spread out over whatever time is convienient, rather than multiple 2-5 hour chunks of time...

So while it is a great start I can see some room for improvement personally. And ye, everyone is more than welcome to disagree with me on that if they like, its only oppinion.

As for whoever it was that said "fun = challenge overcome"... Wow, just wow. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong this is as a generalization. Just for one simple example, I remember slogging my way through Physical Chemisty 2 as a degree requirement. I could not stand it at all, struggled through every moment of that class, cursed the university and my department for making it a requirement in the first place, etc. In short, I loathed everything about that class. In the end I overcame it. Passed with a solid B. Not once in the ten years after that have I ever looked back and said, "You know, P.Chem was a lot of fun. I had a great time passing that class."

I do remember thinking to myself, "I hated that and there is no pile of cash large enough to make me want to do it ever again."

vader

13-12-2006, 15:42

You are guaranteed to succeed, granted you try an unlimited amount of times. At the very least, you aren't guaranteed to fail - as you would be had you not even attempted to try.
Even with an unlimited amount of tries, you are NEVER guaranteed to succeed at something. Never.

Harshateja

13-12-2006, 15:44

Even with an unlimited amount of tries, you are NEVER guaranteed to succeed at something. Never.

And the almighty god spoke to you of this? I want to know the meaning of life!

vader

13-12-2006, 15:48

And the almighty god spoke to you of this? I want to know the meaning of life!
God didn't have to tell me anything. Its common sense.

Harshateja

13-12-2006, 15:50

God didn't have to tell me anything. Its common sense.

With all of your common sense then you must also know that complaining because something is too difficult (even though people like me have already completed the four requirements and are on the priest part) is pretty ridiculous.

NameAlreadyInUse

13-12-2006, 15:59

God didn't have to tell me anything. Its common sense.

Yep, death and taxes are still the only guarentees in life. And with a good enough law firm on your side even the second one isn't a guarentee...

Just because it is possible to do something in no way, shape, or form is it a certainty that a given individual will have success in that endevour regardless of the number of attempts they make.

Yes, the probablity of success does rise with repeated attempts, but even with an infinate number of tries that probablity will not reach 100% so long as the chance to NOT succeed on any given attempt still exists.

Raven Flameheart

13-12-2006, 16:16

Given that for each possible moment in time, there exists a correct action that is part of a winning strategy, and a vast number of incorrect actions, then given infinite attempts, you are bound to win eventually by random chance alone. However, this would mean getting Razah / a coffer would take infinite time, and I for one don't have that long. So let's put aside guarentees, they're not giving this thread any progress.

MixedVariety

13-12-2006, 16:17

Even with an unlimited amount of tries, you are NEVER guaranteed to succeed at something. Never.

You are, however, guaranteed never to succeed if you never try.

And I'm contributing to pulling this thread off topic. *warns self*

Ayarie

13-12-2006, 16:17

Come on guys - is it a gurantee that that 2 + 2 will equal 10 in only you try hard enough?

Its kinda off topic to say the least to bring up ones and hundreds of examples of where some things are guranteed and somethings are not.

Since there ARE things that are guranteed to fail no matter how many attempts - then is a null and void point that simply trying hard enough will complte said trial to gurantee satisfaction...

Not everything is "guranteed" something...

DoA is perhaps guranteed if you play a monk or an ele.... But a complete fail if you are an assasin or ranger... - those kinda factors that will change the gurnateed sucess...

As well as all the random programming numbers etc calculating the outcomes.

Naru

Harshateja

13-12-2006, 16:21

Come on guys - is it a gurantee that that 2 + 2 will equal 10 in only you try hard enough?

Are you sure about that? Via "subversive" (using illegal operations legally) methods, its easily possible.

Ayarie

13-12-2006, 16:22

Are you sure about that? Via "subversive" (using illegal operations legally) methods, its easily possible.

the point people are trying to make is that if i try 10 - a million times to add 2+2 i will eventually get 10 - as its agurantee

Naru

Harshateja

13-12-2006, 16:24

the point people are trying to make is that if i try 10 - a million times to add 2+2 i will eventually get 10 - as its agurantee

Naru

And the point I was trying to make is it is possible. REgardless, what does this have to do with DoA?

2+2=4

x = x = 0

x/4 = x/10

Divide both sides by x and then recipricate both sides.

4 = 10 = 2 + 2 || Which is obviously not true because you have to remember the domain, x=/= 0 which is the only time this is true anyway. There are thousands of variations of these.

Ayarie

13-12-2006, 16:30

And the point I was trying to make is it is possible. REgardless, what does this have to do with DoA?

2+2=4

x = x = 0

x/4 = x/10

Divide both sides by x and then recipricate both sides.

4 = 10 = 2 + 2 || Which is obviously not true because you have to remember the domain, x=/= 0 which is the only time this is true anyway. There are thousands of variations of these.

o.0

I wasnt the one who brought up the guranteed possibility rate thing - I seem to recall it was between yourself and another - it isnt guranteed unless X Y and Z are met and not everyone has X Y Z.

The last two pages are nothing but off topic So why questioning my mentioning the off topicness is a point to be made by you one of the original taking off topicers ( i love naru made up words ^-^) isnt a bit hypocritical..

Naru

Harshateja

13-12-2006, 16:35

I wasn't directing it at you. Just at the topic in general.

krispykritter

13-12-2006, 17:33

Come on guys - is it a gurantee that that 2 + 2 will equal 10 in only you try hard enough?

Yes it is, without any handwaving either, simply change the system that you're working in, instead of decimal work in base 4. It's all a mater of perspective, and how you look at what you're given.

Ayarie

13-12-2006, 17:41

Yes it is, without any handwaving either, simply change the system that you're working in, instead of decimal work in base 4. It's all a mater of perspective, and how you look at what you're given.

lol .. Pedantic...

As it stands - like DoA stands - without changing and jiggling then theres no gurantee that its possible.

Naru

oblio

13-12-2006, 17:49

...simply change the system that you're working in, instead of decimal work in base 4.

Like the divide by zero trick above (fun with indeterminate forms), this just deliberately misconstrues the context to achieve an alternate result which has symbolic simularity to the original context. Sweet. When I get to DoA, I'm going to change the system so all the margonites are lvl 10. Then completing DoA will be as easy as posting on a forum how 2+2 = 10.

(Naru was assuming base 10 and field axioms, and anet is assuming level 28 margonites.)

I could really care less about this (I'll play DoA or I won't), but I'm thinking that the forum sophistry is getting a little out of hand.

Kenagalaz

13-12-2006, 17:59

Wait, ok, so you mean PUGs at DoA _aren't_ doing this? There are enough /Mos around there; I'd assume everyone had PS + Rebirth. I mean it's sort of common sense - dozens of lvl 28+ monsters dumping hundreds of damage on everyone means some sort of preventative action has to be taking place, and im my experience Shelter lasts exactly 1-3 seconds.

Nope, PUGs bring exactly one copy of PS and 7 copies of rebirth.
On the other hand, we brought 4-6 copies of PS, 2 rebirths, and one rez chant, simply because it's better to live than die then rez.

Rob Van Der Sloot

13-12-2006, 18:02

DoA is perhaps guranteed if you play a monk or an ele.... But a complete fail if you are an assasin or ranger... - those kinda factors that will change the gurnateed sucess...

I think all the trapper-ranger parties might disagree with you there, as well as the many assassin-rangers that easily make short work of DoA.

As MixedVariety stated before. If you assume that you'll fail, but never try, then your failure is guaranteed.

Kenagalaz

13-12-2006, 18:10

Not everything is "guranteed" something...

DoA is perhaps guranteed if you play a monk or an ele.... But a complete fail if you are an assasin or ranger... - those kinda factors that will change the gurnateed sucess...

Actually, We took a trapper on some of our runs which worked pretty well.
Additionally, there's a nice shadowform tank build that's we tried out. I want to say it used a dervish secondary, but i can't recall atm.

Poisoned Hunter

13-12-2006, 18:30

Harshateja

13-12-2006, 21:48

In Kamadan Today I found somebody selling a Stygian Gem for 12k.
So Ye that's a major price drop from 100k+xx ectos.

Thanks Gaile and other ANET Members for the new updates that are coming, just wonderful ^^

Nope. Styggian usually only go for 10k - 20k....ever since release. They are the easiest of the 4 gems to get. The hardest is the titan gems which still run 100k + xx ectos.

lavenbb

14-12-2006, 00:11

I have read it... and I think you are getting your terminologies mixed up and saying things without truely understanding the posts, mine and FrogDevourer

nuke and spike are very different. nuke is a heavy AoE attack that damages multiple targets at once while spike is a focused attack on a single specific target.

yes, the 1 tank + bunch of nuker build may be EASY, but like i've described before, it's very slow because of it's stop and go and stop and go pace and therefore takes LONGER. On the otherhand, balanced. ie builds that run a diverse distribution of skills (ie attack skills plus PS and healing on one bar) are capable of extended combat (fighting through multiple mobs without any breaks) and ability withstand grueling conditons, ie fighitng in a broken agro. But you should have already know that if you've actually ran balanced vs cookie cutter builds, which leads me to believe that you don't actually understand the difference very well.

Cookie cutter builds are just that. they are pre-defined template builds that PUGs like to run with highly simplified and specialized roles.
for example.the cookie cutter build posted for the foundry. It consists of nukers with only fire skills, a bonder, a monk with only prot skills and a monk with only healing skills + necrotic traversal.

With that in mind, we have beaten each quest multiple times with multiple builds because we are a guild group and group composition is highly variable and depends on who's on and who's got what character as oppose to waiting in AD1 waiting for the next echo nuker. and we build teams around what characters we have available and not what the cookie cutter builds require. We don't "practice" runs before hand, and instead aim for completion on the first try. We do the math on what skills are absolutely necessary and fill in the left over slots to maximize what we want to do. We don't waste time with trial and error or practice. We intellegently design from what we have and what we need and where we're going on a daily bases.

We (independantly of others) pioneered the area and did not copy or coin cookie cutter builds.

Following with the given anaology. It's true, most people have to keep rolling the dice to try to get one. In elite missions, (UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz/DoA) Anet made it difficult to do that by requring you to roll multiple die and get all ones on all of them. Most people stop there, and they give up. What they fail to see is that Anet also gives you the tools to engineer those die. To make them weighted, put velkro on one side or paint them with some sort of sticky glue, allow you to throw then non randomly so that you can increase to probability of getting a 1 from 1/6 to 0.99999.
Can you do it either way? yes
Does the expected ammount of time it takes change using a method that gives you a 1 on the dice with probability 1/6 vs probability 0.9999? yes

This is what divides skill and "brute force"

If it seems boring, if it seems long, if it seems repetative and slow, it's because you're brute forcing it instead of using skill.
that is a very SLOW way to do it that's repetative and boring.
Mere PS spamming drains your energy and reduces your cast time for attack skills. this will make you progress slow and make things repatative and drawn out.
Minimizing PS and maximizing kiting but using just as much as you need can keep a party up indefinately against any mob exponentially improving the time it takes to do quests.
and if you've been able to do that in the past, I wouldn't have had to explain this to you.
Brute force = grind, skill = quick elegant solution.

So I recommend you go back read and try to learn and understand some of these vocabulary like nuke vs spike and balanced vs cookie cutter. And most importantly the line that divides brute forcing and skill.

I guess I have no choice but to accept your narrow definition of nuking as "nuking = meteor shower" despite my clarification, so I'll use "damage overload" from now on. You claim that pugs like to nuke and wait, that's true with some pugs, and it's inevitable since people who pug had never played together before. There's no way for anyone to synergize their speed. It is unreasonable to demand that from puggers. You also claim that puggers don't kite, that's just plain false. I'm sorry you joined some less experienced players, but that's hardly the full picture either.

You also completely missed the point as to why people do not like the DoA mission. What you posted actually proofed their point.

If you haven't realize, "brute forcing", "artificial tactics", and "repetitiveness" are quotes you might want to revisit to get a better grip at things.

Ora

14-12-2006, 03:04

You are, however, guaranteed never to succeed if you never try.

That's also the argument of those crazy enough to jump down niagara falls in a barrel :laugh:

What you fail to realize is that many who have quite a reputation in PvE have given DoA a fair amount of their time, have found it to be no fun and left it alone afterwards...

So using the words "never try" is simply wrong.

Hukka

14-12-2006, 03:38

Chthon

14-12-2006, 04:44

You are calculating it with current gemstone prices. Prices will come down now that its faster to farm these.

I think Rob already addressed this issue:

15 X Margonite Gemstone for 25k = 375k

15 X Anguish Gemstone for 25k = 375k

15 X Torment Gemstone for 25k = 375k

15 X Titan Gemstone for 100k = 1500k

-----------------------------------------
So between 1200k* and 2625k**.

* (if prices drop to 10k per gem, and 50k for the titan gem)
** (if prices remain at 25k per gem, and 100k for the titan gem)

So if the prices drop in the next few weeks then it will cost less than fow armor, otherwise it will cost more.

So, depending on if prices drop as predicted or not, between 1.2 million and 2.6 million for a single item... those had better be some amazing skins.

I don't really mind absurdly expensive items that, judging from the thumbnails, look like badly mangled sporks. If people want badly mangled sporks to prove their leet-ness, they're welcome to 'em.

What bothers me more is that Razah - who, unlike the badly mangled sporks, does convey an in-game advantage - costs between 80k and 175k, using Rob's figures. That's certainly not reasonable if people have to equip 8+ characters. I'm pretty sure that most players don't even have enough gold to unlock him for 1 character...

Kenagalaz

14-12-2006, 06:50

I guess I have no choice but to accept your narrow definition of nuking as "nuking = meteor shower" despite my clarification, so I'll use "damage overload" from now on. You claim that pugs like to nuke and wait, that's true with some pugs, and it's inevitable since people who pug had never played together before. There's no way for anyone to synergize their speed. It is unreasonable to demand that from puggers. You also claim that puggers don't kite, that's just plain false. I'm sorry you joined some less experienced players, but that's hardly the full picture either.

You also completely missed the point as to why people do not like the DoA mission. What you posted actually proofed their point.

If you haven't realize, "brute forcing", "artificial tactics", and "repetitiveness" are quotes you might want to revisit to get a better grip at things.

With the lack of content in your reply, there's not much i can reply with other than:

You also missed why people do enjoy this area. It's end game content. You do not need it to beat it to beat the game. In fact, you cannot access it until after the end of the game, it is optional. and it is defined to be significantly more difficult than the end of the game. Endgame content is not designed for the average gamer who can beat the game. But geared towards the over zealous fans of the game. You see, that's what games call Endgame Content.

Look at any game before it Ruby and Emerald from Final Fantasy VII
Alternative Dimention (level 9999 boss) from Disgaea
Dragovarion Dungeon or whatever it's called in DragonQuest.
The average gamer does not beat the Endgame content.
So why should it be any different here

and this quote:

I don't think of myself as an uber player or whatnot, but I have had plentyfull experience in all forms of both PvE and PvP, and have done pretty much everything there is do in GW a long long time ago. There is, however one thing that I will probably never do (unless they give a very compelling reason to do so), and that is DoA. This game has always been about skill, player skill, and the most beautyfull thing about it was the ballance. Everyone is level 20, everyone can have the same equipment, and everyone has 2 professions and 8 skills. PvE has always been easy, and for anyone that has had any active interest in serious PvP, it has always been bland. With DoA things have gone one step further in the wrong direction.

Why, why, WHY would you ever simply slap on a damage multiplier on a monster and leave it at that. The game has a very delicate ballance, and this only seerves to rip that ballance apart and render it useless. It's like taking chess and playing against an opponent that can move twice every turn. That's not a challence, it's masochistic, and if you were to ever actually try to compete against that, you would have to play in a totally different way that would never be viable in a normal game.

A few pages ago, someone was talking about kiting and preemptive protting and pulling back and a lot of other strategies. Amongst other things, they mentioned that they had 6 copies of prot spirit on their bar. Kitting in DoA is simply not an issue, because a monster should never, EVER get near you. Any enraged creature can kill off a monk in 2 or 3 hits, as such, you have no place near them. If for some reason you do go near them, you should NOT kite, because that only increases the likelyhood of someone else in the party getting aggro, or even worse, bringing back the effect of long cast AoE spells to the rest of the party. Manuevering there is done by one person, and one person only, the TANK. Shutdown is largely useless because all the creatures have an obscene energy pool, and fast cast, your only real option is straight up damage, and even here, not just everything goes. Logically, because of the Enraged ability, you would pick off and spike the creatures one at a time, to minimize the damage that can be done to you. Of course, the only problem with this is that all the spike skills are heavily regulated because of PvP, and going down the spike route guarantees that it will take you att least 2 to 3 times as long to do anything.
Oh yeah, the prot spirit, forgot about those. So, DoA is not an insult to GW because if you have 6/8 people with prot spirit, you die less? Newsflash, the way GW works, with so much prot, you should not die at all, period, unless shutdown comes into play, but then there is not much of that going around, it's just damage.
SO, taking is a necesity, nuking is a must, shutdown is a joke, and then you need healing. So we're back to the good old tank, nuke, heal builds... the only improvement is that people have just discovered prot. Amazing.

All that having been said, one does have to wonder, is the most ballanced skill in the game, Enraged, needed? Why do groups of larger than 8 monsters only have one monk? Why do some not have any monk at all? Why is is that each and every monster does NOT have a Rez Sig? Why is it that some monsters simply DO NOT have 8 skills on their bars?
Personally I don't really care about DoA, it has offered no incentive to do it except for the obscene price of titan gems which is slowly going down and will not be worth the time investment a week from now. What I am worried about is the long term health of the game. If every chapter simply adds another point to the damage multiplier of the monsters, gives them more HP and energy and regen, Two chapters down the line GW PvE will be a very, very sad affair.

This is not a UBERzorz vs N00b WHINEzorz issue, it is a trend in development that could have a very negative impact upon the game if it continues.
Actually, lightbringer and cry were interupts taken, backfire was also used as a shutdown spike. We had some mix of AoEs (including SS) and spike damage. Kiting speeds up combat and reduces damage (instead of wiping, ressing, and restting), this includes monks. it's only when monks can't heal without kiting when it becomes a problem. Dervish and assassins can double hit. PS gets stripped by inspired/drain/shatter/descrate/ and whatever that dervish enchantment strip is. even with PS, if you stand still and let 5 people hit you with double hits at once, you're dead. the high number of enemies that hit for more than 10% of HP makes sitting and tanking, even with PS, impossible for squishy casters. not to mention the damage from AoE from casters, dervish, death blossom, etc that