Last cap vs Team Wipes.

[Puntarunt]

<rant>

In Halls. After two minutes, all Ghostly's are dead, but one had capped. That teams guaranteed the win.

This is fine, but shouldn't there be a alternate way to win built into this situation...say wiping all opposing teams and Ghostly's, should afford you a win over the "Last Cap" rule imo.

Just a thought for discussion. The other day the only people left alive on the entire map were my team. Not even the other priests were still alive. But because the other team capped last we all dropped dead and they got to "Rise from your grave!" to pick up the loot and attempt to hold next round.

I mean seriously, to hold halls, shouldn't someone be alive on your team somewhere on the map? IDK maybe I'm just confused...I know killing everything in sight isn't the only way to win a game, but this just feels so wrong! Like someone played a very dirty trick on you...and you can't even punch em in the eye cause you already incinerated their bodies and pissed away the ashes :angry:

</rant>

:laugh:

[B Ephekt]

I know this may seem obvious, but don't let your ghost die after 2 minutes?

[ImSoToast]

I know this may seem obvious, but don't let your ghost die after 2 minutes?

Right, but why should a team that lets THEMSELVES die as well as their ghostly die still win while your team is alive waiting to lose?

[Lykan]

Right, but why should a team that lets THEMSELVES die as well as their ghostly die still win while your team is alive waiting to lose?
They won because you and the other team didnt look after your ghostly, so letting themselves die is besides the point, why should they bother doing anything if the win is already guarenteed?
The object of the map is to have your ghost capture the alter which you could not do, anything else doesnt matter.

[Puntarunt]

The object of the map is to have your ghost capture the alter which you could not do, anything else doesnt matter.

Thats what I'm saying, the objectives seem so simple to the point it creates some very retarded situations.

Broken Tower has a better dynamic since there's at least the Rez Orb option for the Ghostly to be brought back...

In halls case I've seen teams sit back, while the other two teams duke it out, when both opposing hero's are almost dead, stealth spike the remainder heros and stealth cap...The tactic is...correct for current rules, but still theres something wrong with this picture and leaves much to be desired. The least of an alternate option would be to allow the remainder teams an option to wipe out the capped team to nullify their cap. You can't be king of the mountain if your dead.

Just a thought.

[Lord Natural]

If the objective was changed to "don't die" instead of "protect the altar", the holding builds would be even more obscene.

The current form is much more dynamic, imo. You've got to to think about interrupting the ghost, body blocking, timing, etc. I can't think of anything more boring than "wipe the opposing party" for the final HA match.

Honestly, if an attacking team can't keep its own ghost alive, it's the build and possibly the players who are at fault, not the objective. Blue will be in defensive mode and won't be putting out a lot of damage, and the other party should also be focused on blue. So the only pressure on your ghost should be a half-hearted effort from blue, and collateral damage from the other party (until the altar is open anyway). Every now and then you'll get some bad luck from a spike or unusually high pressure, but in my experience it's rare for the holding team to wipe completely, and still hold for the win, unless they go idle after victory is assured.

[B Ephekt]

I've never really liked the alter mechanic much myself, but it's there and should be dealt with accordingly. I don't mean to be rude, but letting your ghost die after 2:00 is just poor play.

Make sure your monks are keeping Prot Spirit on the ghost and chaining Seed and Shield of Absorption on him even before he caps (just make sure you can seed him once he does cap). The reason I do this is because a lot of times the holding team will try to eliminate the opposing ghosts to ensure a win. I can't count how many times I've held by doing that, or by letting my ghost die before 2:00 and simply retaking the alter from weak teams.

[Deaths]

The winning team just had a choice. Instead to wipe out ur entire team they just killed ur hero. and maybe the other hero too. U can still fight but their is no reason left.
After such a match i would go and make a cup of coffe maybe go to the toilett, instead to fight back in a match i alrdy won.

[melandrus elite]

I personally remember in courtyard wiping a whole team their hero and priest out and it saying in fat letters The Red team Has Been Defeated but thats just what I remember, they could have resigned mabye, or if they aren't in control of the altar after 2:00 they might lose anyway.

[Snype Doesnt Heal]

Ever think that maybe they were just "frenzy+heal sigging" (for lack of a better choice of words) for fun since they already won?

[Almas Darksoul]

I personally remember in courtyard wiping a whole team their hero and priest out and it saying in fat letters The Red team Has Been Defeated but thats just what I remember, they could have resigned mabye, or if they aren't in control of the altar after 2:00 they might lose anyway.

If a team does not control the altar, and their entire team and priest is dead, they automatically lose in courtyard, regardless of timer. The Ghostly Hero can still be alive for you to lose if you do not control the altar.

One thing I notice - the OP mentions the priests of the rival teams being dead... Priests in halls? Either way, it is part of the strategy of halls and it's a lot better than survival, as pointed out. The altar means that you have an extra way to pressure a team.

That said, it would be nice if there were some form of automatic revival of the hero if you have shown a clear victory in terms of kills - wiping both teams with over a minute left, for example. It would be hard to track though (two teams wiping each other while the third wins despite dead hero), and it's much easier to just tell people to look after their hero. Don't put him on the altar until the holding team's Ghostly Hero will be dead soon - there is a lot of damage going around on the altar so it's best to stay away from it whenever possible.

[Wuzzman]

lol. I vote for Last Cap. Why? because the focus of a alter map is to obliterate the ghostly hero. Killing the other players should only be in the process of killing the ghostly hero. Not the focus.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

eh the entire altar capping mechanic sucks balls anyway.

people complained about heroway in HA as being PVE...well what's worse than your entire victory being dependent on an NPC?

[ImSoToast]

I dont get some of the posts/answers here. What I mean is they were very arrogant statements and/or flames outright.

TO say don't let your ghostly die, both of you please post screenies of you taking halls tonight and keeping it for 4 wins in a row. Than I would like you to repeat this. Honestly,by you telling me don't let your ghostly die, you are obviously good enough and this should not be an issue for you.

It's bs and a faulty system that I can be the holding team and kill both opposing heros after the 2 minute mark and whether I die or not I just guaranteed my victory.

Really my whole team could die with the ghostly hero and I still win, and this seems right? Think about it how are you holding the alter when your ghostly is dead? Doesnt matter if other ghostly's die, yours is dead. If anything this would make a lot more sense that if heros die there is no winner. The winning team should be the team with a ghostly on the alter HOLDING it while the timer reaches 0.

[Drec Sutal]

HA isn't deathmatch.

You just have to understand that it is an objective based rather then kill based map.

The failure to realize that only two maps in HA are deathmatch is one of the best reasons to use a r3+ or r6+ team. It takes that long in HA (at least!) to realize that most maps killing the other team is only the means to an end - capping the most (or last) relics or holding an alter when the time runs out is more important.

I don't think it should be changed - it adds strategy, which is the only reason I like GvG and HA. (You'd be surprised how many teams' strategies indicate that they think the purpose of GvG is either deathmatch or capture the flag. The only thing that matters is to kill the guild lord. There is nothing more amusing to me then to watch their 8 man team take out our 5 man team twice or so at the flag stand while our 3 man team wins the match...)

[B Ephekt]

well what's worse than your entire victory being dependent on an NPC?
Ever tried GvG?

TO say don't let your ghostly die, both of you please post screenies of you taking halls tonight and keeping it for 4 wins in a row. Than I would like you to repeat this. Honestly,by you telling me don't let your ghostly die, you are obviously good enough and this should not be an issue for you.What would that prove?

It's bs and a faulty system that I can be the holding team and kill both opposing heros after the 2 minute mark and whether I die or not I just guaranteed my victory.

Really my whole team could die with the ghostly hero and I still win, and this seems right? Think about it how are you holding the alter when your ghostly is dead? Doesnt matter if other ghostly's die, yours is dead. If anything this would make a lot more sense that if heros die there is no winner. The winning team should be the team with a ghostly on the alter HOLDING it while the timer reaches 0.Getting caught up in whiping the opposing teams, and letting your ghost die in the meanwhile, is just poor play. IMO if you play poorly you should lose. The objective is to cap and then prevent other ghosts from capping; teams without a ghost obviously can't cap. So, yeah, saying "dont' let your ghost die" is a valid response.