Changes coming to HA

[Gaile]

Hey, all,

I've posted (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437819)on the main discussion forum some significant news about Heroes' Ascent, but I did want to post here as well.

Thank you very much for your feedback in response to the recent "Share your thoughts" thread on the matter of changes to Heroes' Ascent. At this time, we'd like to announce that the designers have worked up several potential changes for HA, and we're ready to move them into testing mode. But wait, this isn't your standard "We'll let you know more later" thread. This is a "You can let us know more later" thread, instead.

You see, the first wave of changes will involve swapping out and refreshing the mechanics of Heroes' Ascent. From map revisions to victory conditions, there are a lot of proposed changes to the whole HA system that we think will enliven the whole place, will increase the fun factor, and will encourage the creation and use of more and different builds. We're also looking at testing a significant number of skill changes, after which they'll be rolled back out and then honed for final implementation.

We will be holding a weekend of testing, and we invite you to participate. Join us the weekend of January 19 through 21 and test out the changes for yourself. Then, post your thoughts in the fan forums and let us know what you think! You can count on us reading your feedback and considering your input as we move forward.

One note on HA: In order to focus on the changes to mechanics, and in order to avoid shifting too many elements at once (which would make it difficult to assess the success of the individual changes) we are looking at altering game mechanics only during this weekend of testing. While we know that many players feel that HA would be improved through a change in party size, we will not be altering party size for this test. Naturally, we will consider numeric changes at a later date, after the first round involving the change to game mechanics has been tested and appraised.

Thanks again for your support, and we're looking forward to seeing you in the testing weekend!

[javelinstorm]

are we still going to have a ghostly hero?
anyway i look forward to seing the changes

[B Ephekt]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't just renstate 8v8 first off, then adjust everything based on that, especially since it's what most HA players have been begging for. However, I do appreciate the thought and effort being put into this, as well as your efforts of keeping the community updated. I'm just hope these changes won't just be a stop gap update preceding another 6 month+ stint of 6v6 HA.

[Buddah]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't just renstate 8v8 first off, then adjust everything based on that, especially since it's what most HA players have been begging for.
People have been asking for a reworking of the maps and mechanics long before HA even had the 6v6 weekend. The staleness of HA (Tombs) stems from the tired old alter endgame not the group sizes.

are we still going to have a ghostly hero?
anyway i look forward to seing the changesDon't see him leaving us. He's been a staple in all HA maps even when he isn't required for the goal.

[Nesha]

gg Gaile..I am pleased u are listening to us hardcore HAer's

[B Ephekt]

People have been asking for a reworking of the maps and mechanics long before HA even had the 6v6 weekend. The staleness of HA (Tombs) stems from the tired old alter endgame not the group sizes.I'm well aware of this... However, the 6v6 change was completely unneeded, and largely disliked, so it would only seem logical to revert HA to its original state prior to any game, mechanic or win condition updates. At this point we're all pretty certain that 6v6 didn't actually fix anything, so why make changes with 6v6 in mind if the majority of players don't want HA to remain a 6v6 arena? Maybe I"m just being stubborn but it seem pretty counterproductive to me.

[ImSoToast]

So ha is in now way stale right now? I mean since the 6v6 change there has not been a balanced build (is it even possible) and its been nothing but "gimmick" builds from day one. Way way more stale than 8v8. So now I have a choice of 5 fotm's tops compared to 8v8 over 10 fotm's. Just because Iway was very popular it was by no way the only fotm being run.

So I really cannot understand why you always post that 8v8 was stale or gimmicky when 6v6 is way worse in this case.

Other arguement says for me to adept, but know how hard it is to adept when I have soo little choices. Also consider that any fotm build being run makes me run counters to it, thus limiting my 6 players to even less choices or basically joining and running said fotm. See you can't just make a new build and run it. when making new builds you have to consider what is being run right now so you can defeat that. This really limits the creativity when you have only 6 players to make the new build while countering old ones.

There is a nice word which sums up the problem with the concept of 6v6 teams in ha. UTILITY. 6v6 leaves almost no room for utility professions/roles.

[Avenger Azrael]

So ha is in now way stale right now? I mean since the 6v6 change there has not been a balanced build (is it even possible) and its been nothing but "gimmick" builds from day one. Way way more stale than 8v8. So now I have a choice of 5 fotm's tops compared to 8v8 over 10 fotm's. Just because Iway was very popular it was by no way the only fotm being run.

So I really cannot understand why you always post that 8v8 was stale or gimmicky when 6v6 is way worse in this case.

Other arguement says for me to adept, but know how hard it is to adept when I have soo little choices. Also consider that any fotm build being run makes me run counters to it, thus limiting my 6 players to even less choices or basically joining and running said fotm. See you can't just make a new build and run it. when making new builds you have to consider what is being run right now so you can defeat that. This really limits the creativity when you have only 6 players to make the new build while countering old ones.

There is a nice word which sums up the problem with the concept of 6v6 teams in ha. UTILITY. 6v6 leaves almost no room for utility professions/roles.


I'm sorry but I do have to disagree with you. The 8v8 system is much worse than the 6v6. The whole HA mechanics (Victory conditions, etc etc .. as Gaile stated above) must change. Bringing back 8v8 will not solve all the problems and make HA a better place like most players assume. We'll find Vimway back in business, Necro spike teams, Smite teams etc etc. We might even start seeing Mesmer spike teams. Searing flames Elementanists are being annoying while 6v6, wait till we see them in action with 8v8 (talk about easy fame.). Furthermore, if 8v8 is brought back, what difference will it be from a GvG but with new rules and in way smaller maps. The only people who want 8v8 back are mostly the spike teams who can gain even quicker fame than most 6v6 teams nowadays. And I don't think those spike teams are dragged under the category of balanced teams. 6v6 is more compititive than 8v8, and it's suitable in the small maps we already have in HA. Players only choose the easy way out with Fotm. Otherwise, running a balanced build in HA 6v6 is totally possible, and there are balanced teams who take HA and keep it.
To conclude, changing the whole HA system would hopefully fix it. I would just like to thank the Anet team who are actually taking the time to fix HA, and thanks to Gaile for giving us good news.

[richo]

I'm well aware of this... However, the 6v6 change was completely unneeded, and largely disliked, so it would only seem logical to revert HA to its original state prior to any game, mechanic or win condition updates. At this point we're all pretty certain that 6v6 didn't actually fix anything, so why make changes with 6v6 in mind if the majority of players don't want HA to remain a 6v6 arena? Maybe I"m just being stubborn but it seem pretty counterproductive to me.

it was disliked cause all builds where unusuable from that moment on and pple had to think of somthing else, i like the 6 v 6 concept not being able to make a good spike, and the most important thing why 90% of the pple where disliking the change from 8 v 8 was Iway not being usuable anymore:laughing: . So i hope anet does ignore the whole community by not adding 8 v 8 again:grin:

tnx gaile for this i hope this will be a good change to HA:smiley:

[Toxic J]

Ok, I hope that made you feel better Djinn.:wink: Well, I won't be playing HA to experience the changes but I will check some battles on observer mode so here's to hoping that we'll see some good fights.:smiley:

[windcaller]

i have to admit that the game changed since it's release in April 2005. Back then i used to play >12hrs a day, enjoying each and every moment of it. Now, however, i get bored in-game.

I took many breaks. The longest was in Febr 2005. I didn't play back then until the release of Factions.

But nothing changed in Factions, same game-play style, which was later found in Nightfall also.

Let's hope that the upcoming changes will open a new way of playing GuildWars, change its style. If it doesn't, i'm not sure how many will play by next year's time.

ANet, please look back in 2005, and notice the changes between now and then. And please notice the differences. Try to make the game what was back then...or at least something similar. And, hopefully, NOT in a future chapter.

Gaile, can we please be given more info about the changes? Because some of us won't be able to attend the event, due to already planned weekends, and such.

[B Ephekt]

I'm sorry but I do have to disagree with you. The 8v8 system is much worse than the 6v6. The whole HA mechanics (Victory conditions, etc etc .. as Gaile stated above) must change. Bringing back 8v8 will not solve all the problems and make HA a better place like most players assume. We'll find Vimway back in business, Necro spike teams, Smite teams etc etc. We might even start seeing Mesmer spike teams. Searing flames Elementanists are being annoying while 6v6, wait till we see them in action with 8v8 (talk about easy fame.). Furthermore, if 8v8 is brought back, what difference will it be from a GvG but with new rules and in way smaller maps. The only people who want 8v8 back are mostly the spike teams who can gain even quicker fame than most 6v6 teams nowadays. And I don't think those spike teams are dragged under the category of balanced teams. 6v6 is more compititive than 8v8, and it's suitable in the small maps we already have in HA. Players only choose the easy way out with Fotm. Otherwise, running a balanced build in HA 6v6 is totally possible, and there are balanced teams who take HA and keep it.
To conclude, changing the whole HA system would hopefully fix it. I would just like to thank the Anet team who are actually taking the time to fix HA, and thanks to Gaile for giving us good news.
Vim was nerfed so it won't come back anyway. There is nothing wrong with spikes, unless you're a whiny scrub or someone who can't beat them. FoTM's aren't necessarily a bad thing, and hardly something you can "fix" with map updates. People will always cling to easily run builds because quite simply most players are pretty bad at the game.

6v6 was and will remain bad because it lacks space for utility, and the counter to FoTMs you mentioned has always been utility. Winning in 6v6 is done with build strength, not player strength. Furthermore, it is only "competitive" if you consider spiritway vs. spiritway on 90% of the maps competitive. Please, wake up, there is no balanced anymore, the current meta is the worst tombs has seen since the very beginning.

As long as tombs remains 6v6 I doubt there will be much reason to play there instead of GvG.

[Miss Behaving]

I'd like to see 6v6 remain. Why? Ha is the most rank elitist and non welcoming place ever. Most rank 8+ got there via IWAY and Vimway yet think they are "good at the game"
It's hard enough now for new players to find a game without being dis heartened more with "3,2,1 spike..dead LOL nubcakes go back to PVE."
At least with FOTM they stand a little chance to get some fame and laugh at ranked /ragequit
HA needs new blood to stay alive as well as mechanical changes.
P.S. I'm one of those who got my rank with Vimway. I'm just one who never forgot how hard it is for others.

[Alleji]

I'd like to see 6v6 remain. Why? Ha is the most rank elitist and non welcoming place ever. Most rank 8+ got there via IWAY and Vimway yet think they are "good at the game"
It's hard enough now for new players to find a game without being dis heartened more with "3,2,1 spike..dead LOL nubcakes go back to PVE."
At least with FOTM they stand a little chance to get some fame and laugh at ranked /ragequit
HA needs new blood to stay alive as well as mechanical changes.
P.S. I'm one of those who got my rank with Vimway. I'm just one who never forgot how hard it is for others.I love how every unranked PvEer picks a different arbitrary line (r3, r6, r8, r9...) and a different build to blame for "HA elitism"

If I want to play HA again, I'll pug r9 people because I have a better chance of winning with them. I don't see why you should be offended because I didn't pick your vimway deer. That's not elitism, that's prudence.

[Miss Behaving]

Quote Alleji: "I love how every unranked PvEer picks a different arbitrary line (r3, r6, r8, r9...) and a different build to blame for "HA elitism""
Then a couple of lines later......
Quote Alleji: "I don't see why you should be offended because I didn't pick your vimway deer."

So Alleji your an unranked PVE'r?
GG :)

[ImSoToast]

I'd like to see 6v6 remain. Why? Ha is the most rank elitist and non welcoming place ever. Most rank 8+ got there via IWAY and Vimway yet think they are "good at the game"
It's hard enough now for new players to find a game without being dis heartened more with "3,2,1 spike..dead LOL nubcakes go back to PVE."
At least with FOTM they stand a little chance to get some fame and laugh at ranked /ragequit
HA needs new blood to stay alive as well as mechanical changes.
P.S. I'm one of those who got my rank with Vimway. I'm just one who never forgot how hard it is for others.

Dude this is one of the most ignorant "racist" statement I've yet heard. Everything you complain about in 8v8 HAS HAPPENED IN 6V6 BUT WITHIN 2 MONTHS OF THE CHANGE NOT OVER 1 AND 1/2 YEARS OF PLAYING. Do you realise this?

Do you realize that every build you can think of or play in 6v6 I can play and use in 8v8 but the reverse is impossible. Do you and people like you understand this simple mathmatical concept?

I'm not trying to be rude, but 6v6 has absolutely no room for utility, do you understand this?

You can also see how very wrong you are by simply pressing the "b" button while ingame and see what build are being run in ha. Than come back and please tell me that there is more diversity now than ever in 8v8.

**** dude is a balanced build even possible to run in 6v6 or more importantly is it viable? Also you do realize that spike teams are soooooooo much more easily countered in 8v8 where you have room for a utility char to counter them themselves, while in 6v6 we are lacking space for more than a few counters.

Spike groups were just another build diversity that was able to be run in 8v8 on top of many other concept build ideas. Most of these concepts are impossible to do in 6v6.

Next time dont ever say we all iwayed to rank. I pugged my way to r5 and never ran or joined an iway group. SO with your logic I am soo much better than you since you werent able to do this right? I ran almost any build in order to get into groups, instead of coming on this forum and whinning about elite rankism and how hard it is to get into groups.

YOu honestly must be playing a different game if you or anyone else thinks its easier to get into groups now, RANKED OR UNRANKED, than ever before in 8v8.

Don't forget I pugged my way to r5 since about a month prior to factions taking about a 3 month break for pveing in factions and farming the deep. So I saw the difference in joining pug groups pre 6v6 change. Outside of crappy heroway teams it is soo much harder to get into groups now. **** half the time its the same 10 people looking for a group for 20 minutes, they find a group win or lose a few than are back at it.

[Miss Behaving]

ImSoToast can you quote where I said ALL ranked their way to 8? I said MOST.
Yes there are exceptions. I still stand by what i said. Ha needs to encourage new players.

[grimwold]

people are most like getting annoyed due to 6v6 supporters moaning at the gimmicks that were present in 8v8, and blatently not realising that 6v6 has NOTHING BUT gimmicks. Please, i beg you, show me a team enjoying success in ha that isnt running a lame gimmick.

Do you actually think spiritway is in any less of a gimmick than iway ever was ?

Our fundamental problem, which is being completely ignored, is that players that dont want to run lame *** gimmick builds are left in the cold, we CANT play balanced because we dont have the utilty to counter all the gimmicks any more.

There isnt a single reason why 6v6 is better than 8v8 was, rank is (and always will be) a problem for those that dont have it wether its 6v6 or 20 vs 20 so please dont try and use that one.

GvG was always more prestigous, but HA - as it stands now - is a complete joke.

[Avenger Azrael]

people are most like getting annoyed due to 6v6 supporters moaning at the gimmicks that were present in 8v8, and blatently not realising that 6v6 has NOTHING BUT gimmicks. Please, i beg you, show me a team enjoying success in ha that isnt running a lame gimmick.

Do you actually think spiritway is in any less of a gimmick than iway ever was ?

Our fundamental problem, which is being completely ignored, is that players that dont want to run lame *** gimmick builds are left in the cold, we CANT play balanced because we dont have the utilty to counter all the gimmicks any more.

There isnt a single reason why 6v6 is better than 8v8 was, rank is (and always will be) a problem for those that dont have it wether its 6v6 or 20 vs 20 so please dont try and use that one.

GvG was always more prestigous, but HA - as it stands now - is a complete joke.

With all due respect, you are wrong. I sat all of yesterday, doing nothing but observing HA matches. I saw balanced teams not only taking HA, but also keeping it. Do watch them before quoting someone else. And players talking about they can't use balanced teams is because of two reason, either they are not skilled enough to play HA in a balanced team, or they are just lazy. Nuff' Said.

[ImSoToast]

With all due respect, you are wrong. I sat all of yesterday, doing nothing but observing HA matches. I saw balanced teams not only taking HA, but also keeping it. Do watch them before quoting someone else. And players talking about they can't use balanced teams is because of two reason, either they are not skilled enough to play HA in a balanced team, or they are just lazy. Nuff' Said.

Are you playing a different game? Watching Ha for sure because you are wrong.

Do you realize that a balanced build is impossible in 6v6? Do you?

Please name a guild that runs balanced! There is none, so please if you are going to step in here at lease be honest!

How can you possibly disagree with that poster? 6v6 is nothing but gimmicks, every single build is basically a gimmick with spirit spam or a modded fear me almost being run exclusively for the past week!

[CyanBoy]

Do you realize that a balanced build is impossible in 6v6? Do you?



Do you realize you're wrong? Do you?

It's also nice to read such a constructive and respectful post from Djinn Effer. Now Anet will definately consider changing HA your way.

This is getting ridicoulus, and i can't really understand why Anet would even make changes for such a bunch of whiners and flamers. They are probably trying to be nice to those who aren't rude :smiley:

[mrankh]

Quote Alleji: "I love how every unranked PvEer picks a different arbitrary line (r3, r6, r8, r9...) and a different build to blame for "HA elitism""
Then a couple of lines later......
Quote Alleji: "I don't see why you should be offended because I didn't pick your vimway deer."

So Alleji your an unranked PVE'r?
GG :)

LOL funny, coming from a person who dosent know how to quote in a forum...

[Buddah]

people are most like getting annoyed due to 6v6 supporters moaning at the gimmicks that were present in 8v8, and blatently not realising that 6v6 has NOTHING BUT gimmicks. Please, i beg you, show me a team enjoying success in ha that isnt running a lame gimmick.

Gimmick builds never bothered me. What bothered me was the backlash against these fotm by those who played the ultimate gimmick of 8v8, balanced. Towards the end of 8v8 we saw a few people on these forums and in game lashing out at those who played fotm's.

we CANT play balanced because we dont have the utilty to counter all the gimmicks any more.

My honest belief is no build should be able to carry counters to almost every situation. There is enough room in 6v6 that you can carry only a few utility skills. This forces players to make decisions based on the meta all the more important. The extra utility that 8v8 allowed was just crack cocaine, now we're left with addicts who can't break the habit.



Do you realize that a balanced build is impossible in 6v6? Do you?

It's possible always has been, just so few want to try.

Watched one holding a couple times last night. A pick up group or friends list group.


every single build is basically a gimmick with spirit spam or a modded fear me almost being run exclusively for the past week!You missed the Signet of Mystic Wrath team, RaO thumper teams, SF groups, and various elem spikes.

[windcaller]

Gimmick builds were always and will be a part of HA, without taking into account the number of players.

Spirit spam team, Mystic Wrath spikers...bla bla...there are hardly new builds these days because nobody will bother to take a mesmer instead of the last ele or monk. Some proffessions are left outside and nobody gives a damn about it.

But whatever. If you guys think SF is something to be proud of...you must be joking. I'd rather go IWAY than SF. At least the N/Mos learn something in that build. In SF you press 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 all day long. If you face a noob team "Yay we won." If not "Bah, bunch of losers."

TBH i'm missing the diversity in HA. You can count the builds on your fingers, you can't create something that doesn't resemble another abused build. Why? Lack of space in the party.

In the Broken Tower map, more often the beggers win. Let the other 2 teams fight and kill each other and at 00.13 go capture. Great!!

In Scarred Earth if you happen to face a tough team the 3rd one comes and jumps on you. 6 players cannot resist the damage output of 12.

These 2 maps really need to be fixed.

About builds...i can't really talk right now. Maybe new ones will appear after the skill balance. SF will be nerfed for sure, Sandstorm same...Rits will get another big hit. I hope mesmers will get some love but..aw well...

If it were for me, i'd make HA 12v12. That would open many gates for many builds and all the proffessions. Why? Imagine you face a spike build. You won't be simply pressing Infuse once. The 2nd monk will be doing the same, and the rit Spirit Transfer. I believe in THAT kind of map true skill will come to surface and true team-work and practice, lots of practice will make players shine.

But that is just my opinion and i don't really care other's opinions regarding this. Of course some might say "omg you noob 12v12 is crap hahaha noob".

On the other hand, ANet, don't even think of making it 4v4 ><

*Walks away dreaming of 12v12 maps*

[Advalorem]

Wow, someone actually thinks the same as I do! The thing I miss about 8v8 was shutdown. That was where the real skill was, at least for me - trying to outsmart the enemy team, shutting down their shutdown, outsmarting the guy shutting you down, all of that. Now it's just a case of kiting outside of sandstorm.

Anyway, to add something new to this convo, I have to say, 12v12 sounds amazing. So much potential there. If the maps were to allow for splits too... ah, but no doubt it won't work in practice. Still, it would make it incredibly difficult for any one leader to successfully lead a team of 12. There's just too much going on for one warrior to find targets whilst leading the team at the same time. Well, maybe not the rank 20 ones : p

[Wuzzman]

Any idiot can see, that there is no balance builds being run in 6v6. Thats period. Your either Searing Flames, RaO thumping, Sandstorm/warding, or some combination of all 3 for pure offense. Or your super defense spiritway or monk ball. Its really that simple. Ha in my opinion was dead for a long time and the only thing that kept me playing was because it provided some pratice for gvg. But this 6v6 is just sad. I refuse to join/make a pug to play in these mindless, ventless, builds just so I can play in an arena that changed in the obsolute wrong way. I won't quite the game over 6v6 but I'm not trusting anet pvp policy for now on. There is little faith in my mind that anet can revive hero ascent before or even after chapter 4.

[Avenger Azrael]

Are you playing a different game? Watching Ha for sure because you are wrong.

Do you realize that a balanced build is impossible in 6v6? Do you?

Please name a guild that runs balanced! There is none, so please if you are going to step in here at lease be honest!

How can you possibly disagree with that poster? 6v6 is nothing but gimmicks, every single build is basically a gimmick with spirit spam or a modded fear me almost being run exclusively for the past week!

First you call me a Liar.
so please if you are going to step in here at lease be honest!

And then you simply respond without thinking. And then you call everyone who play 6v6 gimmicks.

6v6 is nothing but gimmicks

Just watch the HA matches. That'll be more than a proof. Speak up your opinion without the need to call others liars. AND at lease do your research before you speak. And btw, if I have the list of guilds/teams who won HA yesturday and are balanced, I'd probably flood this thread. Go check it for yourself before calling me a liar. We're here to have fun and speak our opinions without the need to get flamed every now and then.
Have a nice day ! :wave:
:laugh:
:flowers:

[Wuzzman]

First you call me a Liar.


And then you simply respond without thinking. And then you call everyone who play 6v6 gimmicks.



Just watch the HA matches. That'll be more than a proof. Speak up your opinion without the need to call others liars. AND do your research before you speak. And btw, if I have the list of guilds/teams who won HA yesturday and are balanced, I'd probably flood this thread. Go check it for yourself before calling me a liar. We're here to have fun and speak our opinions without the need to get flamed every now and then.
Have a nice day ! :wave:
:laugh:
:flowers:


Question. Did you run(started or puged) a balance build? Do you see anyone looking for a balanced pug with vent? Do you know the individual builds of at least 3 spots of your supposed balance builds being run by guilds in HoH? Why do we have to find the evidence behind your ludicrouse claims? If you say; "Do your own research", infront of a college proffessor asking you where is your evidence to support your opinions on your paper, do you know what he will do to your paper? You will get a zero automaticly for telling him to "find the evidence for yourself". The same here, to make claims that is controdictory to players who have been watching the metagame of HA for quite some time without any evidence(at least a name, the builds they used, time period?) is complete idiocy. And ImsoToast does not need to take you seriously.

[Avenger Azrael]

Question. Did you run(started or puged) a balance build? Do you see anyone looking for a balanced pug with vent? Do you know the individual builds of at least 3 spots of your supposed balance builds being run by guilds in HoH? Why do we have to find the evidence behind your ludicrouse claims? If you say; "Do your own research", infront of a college proffessor asking you where is your evidence to support your opinions on your paper, do you know what he will do to your paper? You will get a zero automaticly for telling him to "find the evidence for yourself". The same here, to make claims that is controdictory to players who have been watching the metagame of HA for quite some time without any evidence(at least a name, the builds they used, time period?) is complete idiocy. And ImsoToast does not need to take you seriously.

Then don't take me seriously Professor ImsoToast :cool:
I never forced you to take me seriously :wink:
Thanks for sharing your opinion ! :tongue:

[B Ephekt]

With all due respect, you are wrong. I sat all of yesterday, doing nothing but observing HA matches. I saw balanced teams not only taking HA, but also keeping it.
Sorry but your comments lead me to believe that you don't actually play in HA. Maybe your idea of "balanced" is any build without 5 of the same profession, or some other crazy criteria, but there is certainly very little balanced being played currently. You only have a handful of builds out there at the moment, and sorry to break it to you, but 3 dervishes and a warder is not balanced in any sense.

And players talking about they can't use balanced teams is because of two reason, either they are not skilled enough to play HA in a balanced team, or they are just lazy. Nuff' Said.I can say from personal experiences with my guild (mostly r10+, and top 100 in GvG) that running balanced in the current meta is mostly pointless. You simply cannoy take the utility required to counter the spirit spam, 3 dervish, fearway, etc builds; you can hard counter one quite well, but you will always be weak against most of them. Quite simply put, builds are winning matches in HA currently, not players - so you either hop on the scrubby, boring FoTM train, or you deal with being less effective. For many people this means that 6v6 is simply not fun. It's far too limiting and build dependent to instill any sense of actually accomplishment when you win.

I used to prefer tombs to GvG, but there is just no point in playing in that broken arena anymore. New maps and more levers (!) aren't going to change that if they're based around 6v6.

[ImSoToast]

First you call me a Liar.


And then you simply respond without thinking. And then you call everyone who play 6v6 gimmicks.



Just watch the HA matches. That'll be more than a proof. Speak up your opinion without the need to call others liars. AND do your research before you speak. And btw, if I have the list of guilds/teams who won HA yesturday and are balanced, I'd probably flood this thread. Go check it for yourself before calling me a liar. We're here to have fun and speak our opinions without the need to get flamed every now and then.
Have a nice day ! :wave:
:laugh:
:flowers:

Okay well hope you realize that you lost all your credibility here. I never called you a liar, but said that you are wrong.

Please list a balanced build for 6v6, than list the guilds that are using it.

Like I said are you playing a different game? Please do watch the observer mode, you will see a bunch of fear me's and spirit spams. Thas about it mostly. Once in a while there is an echo ss spike or somw spike.

Also can you explain to me how I called you a liar? I said you were wrong, but in the English/American language lying and wrong are not exclusively synonymous.

Are you saying to me that everyone who is wrong is also a liar?

[Ranger Nietzsche]

welll I'd take part but this is all thread jacking and anyway


GIMMICK/JANK IS THE GREATEST THING EVER

[windcaller]

well.....it seems like this thread is another flame-filled bin.

ANet, plz bring 12v12 to HA :)

[Parker Bsb]

Wow... just wow.

Gaile posts to let the PvP players that seem to care about HA, and all most of you can do is threadjack/QQ/flame?

Gaile, thanks for the info - I do have to agree with some of the posters here. 8v8 allows for more flexibility in builds; here's what I envision happening:

1) Anet makes the map changes etc...
2) People figure out the tricks to the new maps (1 week... 2 tops).
3) Realizing that 8v8 would allow more versatility in these new maps people start the crusade for 8v8 again.

When this happens please DO NOT expect us to listen to "the new maps were balanced for 6v6" because frankly Tombs was balanced for 8v8 and there were no map changes when it was changed to 6v6.

[CyanBoy]

To get rid of all the misunderstandings about balanced build, i know ask: What is a balanced build?

Simply saying what balanced build is not, will not help anyone.

[CassiusDrehyg]

I'd like to see 6v6 remain. Why? Ha is the most rank elitist and non welcoming place ever. Most rank 8+ got there via IWAY and Vimway yet think they are "good at the game"
It's hard enough now for new players to find a game without being dis heartened more with "3,2,1 spike..dead LOL nubcakes go back to PVE."
At least with FOTM they stand a little chance to get some fame and laugh at ranked /ragequit
HA needs new blood to stay alive as well as mechanical changes.
P.S. I'm one of those who got my rank with Vimway. I'm just one who never forgot how hard it is for others.

But seriously now, I'm going to tell you what I tell everyone else who cries because he/she can't get into R9++

Teams play to win. They don't want someone who is probably unfamiliar with the mechanics of maps beyond Broken Tower.

I'm sorry, but people who understand how Guild Wars works better than people who don't will have more success with new maps. Your silly R3++ Searing Flames pug will still die fast. People who play gimmicks will always be inferior players in the end because they aren't able to play a broad variety of builds. They play like robots because they have played the same build, e.g. a VIM trapper or an IWAY warrior over and over again.

[JodoKast]

In my opinion, things need to be evaluated in the big picture.

In the near future, ArenaNet will propose high end 8v8 play, in the form of free play GvG and in the form of daily tournaments. A 8v8 HA permanent tournament is a concurrent to this new daily tournament format so to me, it makes perfect sense to transform HA into something very different so that the two format don't concurrent each other like old HA and GvG used to.

A 6v6 challenge tournament is a good idea as it offers an intermediary format between arenas and the new high-end 8v8. The trick is to make it challenging enough with interesting game mechanisms.

The problem of today's HA lies more in my opinion in the game mechanisms than in the amount of players per team. People tend to forget that prior to the change from 8 to 6, many people were already unhappy with HA and the game mechanisms behind it (altar maps and fame farming syndromas). The problems back then still exist today and in a way have been made worse by reducing team size. What many people fail to realize however is that those problems won't be solved by putting team size back to 8. Those problems will be solved by revising game mechanisms.

Today's second map is a 3 way altar. This setup makes very defensive builds extremely prevalent in the whole tournament as teams are forced early to complete a capture and hold the hill objective if they want to advance further. Putting team size back to 8 people will not solve this problem.

My point here is that if the new 6v6 HA format is revamped so that the tournament setup promotes balanced play, then it shouldn't matter that the format is 6 players only.

As for ideas on how to make balance prevail:

- randomize map orders in the tournament so that bottleneck mechanisms don't filter out builds

- add additional game objectives in the map round, such as control point capture, split situation, cooperative play ( 2 teams allied vs 2 others),...

When this happens please DO NOT expect us to listen to "the new maps were balanced for 6v6" because frankly Tombs was balanced for 8v8 and there were no map changes when it was changed to 6v6.

This is the wrong way to put it. What if the fact that the unaltered maps was the main reason why 6v6 is not as good ?

[Buddah]

In my opinion, things need to be evaluated in the big picture.

In the near future, ArenaNet will propose high end 8v8 play, in the form of free play GvG and in the form of daily tournaments. A 8v8 HA permanent tournament is a concurrent to this new daily tournament format so to me, it makes perfect sense to transform HA into something very different so that the two format don't concurrent each other like old HA and GvG used to.

A 6v6 challenge tournament is a good idea as it offers an intermediary format between arenas and the new high-end 8v8. The trick is to make it challenging enough with interesting game mechanisms.

The problem of today's HA lies more in my opinion in the game mechanisms than in the amount of players per team. People tend to forget that prior to the change from 8 to 6, many people were already unhappy with HA and the game mechanisms behind it (altar maps and fame farming syndromas). The problems back then still exist today and in a way have been made worse by reducing team size. What many people fail to realize however is that those problems won't be solved by putting team size back to 8. Those problems will be solved by revising game mechanisms.

These are points I've made in the past in these various threads.

I really think that Anet wants HA to 6v6 as a middle ground between TA and the revamped GvG.

[grimwold]

first of all i dont see how people pointing out reasons as to why 8v8 was a better system is being called thread jacking. surely its our only way of getting our point across to those who can make the changes.

secondly, people who are pugging groups will ALWAYS have rank problems, 6v6 hasnt altered this in anyway.

thirdly it is correct that there were problems with the end map of ha, the alter system often deinies the "more skilled" team of winning, but again this hasnt changed with 6v6, so im STILL waiting on a single reason why 6v6 is a better system.

[shadow the hero]

On-topic: The only solution I can end this discussion for both sides - the 8v8 and the 6v6 people, is to make two kinds of HA. I know it isn't simple to make a new arena but hell It is the only way to please both sides

[CyanBoy]

heh, funny how most HA players can't argue without insulting, do some people ever grow up?


On-topic: The only solution I can end this discussion for both sides - the 8v8 and the 6v6 people, is to make two kinds of HA. I know it isn't simple to make a new arena but hell It is the only way to please both sides

You can never please both sides.

[windcaller]

heh, funny how most HA players can't argue without insulting, do some people ever grow up?


Sorry to spoil your fun but there are peeps who insult regardless of what side of the game they play more. IMO there's the minority of players who insult, rather than the majority :)

A question haunted me for some time: what are the chances ANet will re-roll HA to 8v8.

[Amor Morte]

Low I reckon.

But I'll be happily departing from the HA scene in a few days when I finally have my R9. I have no desire to grind any more of this 6v6 crap.

[shadow the hero]

Sorry to spoil your fun but there are peeps who insult regardless of what side of the game they play more. IMO there's the minority of players who insult, rather than the majority :) You would be suprized if you looked closely at which part of PvP insults the most, HA and AB.

to yiour last question: Only one from Anet can answer that, mate

[Amor Morte]

I see a lot of insulting, rude and downright vulgar language and behaviour in Alliance Battles on the rare occasion I decide to partake in said PvP activity. I see a lot more there then I do in high end PvP. And from my (somewhat limited I must admit) observations, AB consists mainly of PvE players.

Go figure.

[Wuzzman]

I see a lot of insulting, rude and downright vulgar language and behaviour in Alliance Battles on the rare occasion I decide to partake in said PvP activity. I see a lot more there then I do in high end PvP. And from my (somewhat limited I must admit) observations, AB consists mainly of PvE players.

Go figure.

Point well made.

[Ruricu]

On-topic: The only solution I can end this discussion for both sides - the 8v8 and the 6v6 people, is to make two kinds of HA. I know it isn't simple to make a new arena but hell It is the only way to please both sides

One reason HA was changed to 6v6 was because of skips. Reducing the player limit to 6 increased the ability of people to make groups, thus causes more groups to be in the HA ladder at any given time, reducing skips.

If you were to create two types of HA, there would be less than half as many teams out there in either than there were before, causing the skip problem. (Also, how would you control favor if you had 2 Hall of Heroes?)

[GuildWarsGirlAmy]

One reason HA was changed to 6v6 was because of skips. Reducing the player limit to 6 increased the ability of people to make groups, thus causes more groups to be in the HA ladder at any given time, reducing skips.

If you were to create two types of HA, there would be less than half as many teams out there in either than there were before, causing the skip problem. (Also, how would you control favor if you had 2 Hall of Heroes?)

It reduces skips? 0.o

[shadow the hero]

I see a lot of insulting, rude and downright vulgar language and behaviour in Alliance Battles on the rare occasion I decide to partake in said PvP activity. I see a lot more there then I do in high end PvP. And from my (somewhat limited I must admit) observations, AB consists mainly of PvE players.

Go figure. My limited Observations shows that PvE players knows more about PvP then a PvP player, proof is a great tool providing that tells other people that wat you are saying is true.
meh as for simply giving the PvE players the blame for insults in AB, stop being a 8 old that is blaming the other kids.

One reason HA was changed to 6v6 was because of skips. Reducing the player limit to 6 increased the ability of people to make groups, thus causes more groups to be in the HA ladder at any given time, reducing skips.

If you were to create two types of HA, there would be less than half as many teams out there in either than there were before, causing the skip problem. (Also, how would you control favor if you had 2 Hall of Heroes?) huh? didn't know that, lol.... anyway when you have two fighting factions like the 8vs8s and the 6vs6s, what is a good solution?
and to the last favor stuff: Duh! I forgot that >.<

[windcaller]

One reason HA was changed to 6v6 was because of skips. Reducing the player limit to 6 increased the ability of people to make groups, thus causes more groups to be in the HA ladder at any given time, reducing skips.

If you were to create two types of HA, there would be less than half as many teams out there in either than there were before, causing the skip problem. (Also, how would you control favor if you had 2 Hall of Heroes?)

skips? Nice joke. Ijust skipped from UW directly into HoH. Same the other team there. Was quite a funny chat:
"We skipped."
"Same here."
"Hehe."
"We both know what to do. Gank blue."
"Aight."

[ImSoToast]

Worse is fame farming sux because I cannot rememver the last time my team got 5 maps in a row. We are lucky to get 3 maps and than its skip off too halls.

Skipping is more ridiculous now than it ever ever was in 8v8. Crap timing a hall jump has never been as easy as now!

[Tristan Chapin]

A question haunted me for some time: what are the chances ANet will re-roll HA to 8v8.

It's almost definitely going to get tested. But we'll need to wait several months at least, because any changes that they make to the gameplay need a while to run their course.

[Parker Bsb]

Can we please drop the PvE vs PvP debate? It's really getting old...

As for implementing 2 HA's (one 6v6 one 8v8) I can tell you it's not going to do anything but increase skips etc...

I'd like HA to go back to 8v8 and for Anet to impliment some new arena for 6v6. Unless of course they are going to reduce the utility needed to bring in HA... we'll see how the cards fall soon enough I'd wager.

[Alleji]

(Also, how would you control favor if you had 2 Hall of Heroes?)Remove favour?

I'd prefer if the message was still there, because having your name flashed is the only real reward when sigils are pocket change and you're not looking at your fame bar, because even a 40-fame win wouldn't make it twitch.

But I'm not going to QQ about removing the HoH message as long as anet un****s their stupid with relation to skill balance and 6v6.

[B Ephekt]

It's almost definitely going to get tested. But we'll need to wait several months at least, because any changes that they make to the gameplay need a while to run their course.
At this point, several months = ebay for most. It's kind of sad that I know more than a handful of people who are only playing HA to get the last bit of fame for their r11/12 so they can sell their accounts.

I'm not sure why they won't just reinstate 8v8 first, then make the changes based around it.

At least they haven't ruined GvG... yet.

Also, lol at 6v6 causing less skips.

[windcaller]

Would be nice to read the follwoing news flash:

ANet has changed GvG to 6v6 and HA to 4v4. RA and TA are now 2v2 and 1v1.

[Lord Natural]

Worse is fame farming sux because I cannot rememver the last time my team got 5 maps in a row. We are lucky to get 3 maps and than its skip off too halls.

Skipping is more ridiculous now than it ever ever was in 8v8. Crap timing a hall jump has never been as easy as now!

I agree. Skipping is very annoying. Anet should be trying to bring players back to HA, and nothing about their press release has me hopeful of this. Players wanted 8v8 and new maps/rewards. What do we get? Some new levers. Awesome. We'll have to wait and see how the 'preview' weekend goes, I suppose, but so far I'm skeptical. If their new GvG system flops, and HA still sucks, GW won't have much going for it.

[ImSoToast]

I agree. Skipping is very annoying. Anet should be trying to bring players back to HA, and nothing about their press release has me hopeful of this. Players wanted 8v8 and new maps/rewards. What do we get? Some new levers. Awesome. We'll have to wait and see how the 'preview' weekend goes, I suppose, but so far I'm skeptical. If their new GvG system flops, and HA still sucks, GW won't have much going for it.

Yup unfortunately you are correct. Shoot some of my guildies liked the 6v6 and are slowly coming around. It's simply that 6v6 is too limited when thinking of counters. There are soo many concept builds that would work in 6v6, but can't be run because of the meta game right now. Trying to get into a pug group during the daytime (us time) is worse than late nights used to be in 8v8.

I cannot believe that all the people who used to complain about fotm's and gimmick builds are happy with what has been and is going on in Ha right now. Did all these people leave Ha or just stop posting here? I mean if you complained about Iway wtf are your thought about spirit spam? It is getting a bit better now, but the last 2-3 weeks spirit spam was run more than any other fotm, except for original ranger groups that I have ever seen. There were a few days when I tried to pug between 1100 am to about 6 pm and almost all groups were spirit spam with the occasional random way or newb group.

[quago]

Looking at what Gaile said. She is looking for ideas on how 6v6 will be fun for most players including newcomers. Instead of arguing over the number of people I have come up with this ideas.

First. I would like to see a required training area that players must pass on in order to participate heroes ascent. This training area(unlike the ones we have now) will be compulsary again to all players and let them know about the metagame, some tips and tricks, and basic ha rules so new players will actually know what to do before they started losing over and over again. Maybe teach them the advantage of vent and ts.

Second. I like to have the 1vs1vs1vs1 map have 2 winners. People will have to kill each other but the last second group able fight the winning group will have a chance to stay. From a tournament perspective it actually makes it less stressful and recognizing the efforts of the players involved.

Third. I would like to see victory of death on whatever time developers agreed on. This will makes battles non frustrating especially when its a stalemate.

Fourth. Maybe tweak the match making on EARLIER maps (maybe the first 3 ones) on ha so that experienced (ranked) players will have more chance of competing with ranked players but at the same time giving new players to fight new players. This means more fun for both sides. New players have a chance of winning and looking to improve more and skilled players will likely be more competitive.

Fifth. Maybe anet could develop voice over program so that most people will have access to it (especially the non computer hardcore guys who just want to have fun). Keeping it simple to new players makes ipod so popular.

I hope of these ideas helped anet to develop a more fun pack ha we have yet to see.

Note to posters who want 8v8 back into this thread: Gaile mentioned that party number will not change for this testing. I hope you guys understand that you are flaming and hijacking a thread when you do post about this stuff.