[Dev Update] Skill Balances and Hero Battles

[Gaile]

Hello,

It's time for another official Dev Update, straight from the Guild Wars Design Team. Hooray! :smiley: This week, we'll be making some changes, including a modest number of skill balances and an alteration to Hero Battles. So here's the latest news, with an outline of the upcoming changes and a note about the why's and wherefore's of each.

Upon reviewing the first half of the Celestial Tournament, we’ve decided to balance some skills to improve the competitive environment. These changes will take effect after 12:01 PM PST on Wednesday, March 7 to allow completion of Round 4 of the tournament.

This permanent update addresses critical balance issues within the tournament and is not a temporary weekend implementation. We are still working on a larger play balance review in preparation for next weekend’s event.

Ritualist

The following skills have changed:
Gaze from Beyond: increased casting time to 2 seconds.
Spirit Burn: increased recharge time to 8 seconds.
Lamentation: increased casting time to 1 second; reduced damage to 15..75.When these skills were first implemented, they required the caster to be very close to a Spirit in order to use them effectively. We recently changed all such skills to work at a much greater distance, though they became too powerful. Our intention is for these skills to remain effective but not be out of scope with other damage-dealing options.
Necromancer

The following skill has changed:
Discord: increased casting time to 2 seconds.We have been pleased to see Discord useful in a variety of PvP and RP situations, but its rate of sustained damage output is excessive. Increasing the casting time lowers the damage output to a reasonable amount while giving opponents an opportunity to use general purpose counters such as interruption and Condition/Hex removal.
Assassin

The following skills have changed:
Shadow Prison: increased Energy cost to 10.
Blades of Steel: decreased maximum damage bonus to 60.Shadow Prison was simply too powerful for its cost, thus the increase to its Energy cost. The damage from Blades of Steel was out of scale with that of other dual-attack skills. We hope that these skill changes will encourage build diversity for Assassins and Warrior/Assassins, and we believe both of these skills will remain viable but not superior to other options.
Mesmer

The following skill has changed:
Wastrel’s Demise: increased casting time to 1 second.With a ¼ second casting time, this skill was too fast and powerful as a source of follow-up damage.
Hero Battles

We’re taking this opportunity to make a change to Hero Battles. Currently, very defensive builds are capable of holding the center shrine, needlessly slowing down games and homogenizing strategies. As a result, we’ve made the following change:
Capturing and holding any or all shrines on the map now contributes to your morale. The center shrine now grants twice the amount of positive “pip” arrows on the morale meter than other capture points. The secondary benefits associated with these shrines will remain unchanged.We feel this change will impact movement, tactics, and build creation in a positive manner and will generally make battles more competitive and interesting. With the upcoming Hero Battles ladder on the horizon, we felt a need to improve this format before the ladder is put into place. We will continue to monitor this venue and adjust this mechanic as needed.

So that's it! As I mentioned, this update will be streamed into Guild Wars sometime tomorrow afternoon. As always, your thoughts are welcome, and we invite your feedback on these changes after you've had a chance to try them out and see how they function in the game.

[Nobleman Azure]

I rather like this, skill balance with explanations why.

Another mesmer nerf but at least this time i know for sure why and I know for sure that its reasonable. I hope further skill balances in the future would be like this; with explanations tied to.

[Confusion of Minds]

Glad to see most of those skills got changed. Discord was especially strong and needed a change. The reason for rhe changes is a nice touch as well.


It would be nice if we got a chance to test pet controls or are they still in beta.

[Zeittotschlager]

That's great. I love to see the descriptions, too. You're bound to get people who argue with the reasoning, but that can be good too. The advantage of letting everyone know why is getting that many more brains to think about the reasons and maybe see something you missed.

[Shadow Flameheart]

interesting Galie...I wanted to take a picture with you before you left today...:( people....and their blasted spam >_< and you should have taken that bow! :P

On another note. Im glad to hear you acttualy want to get rid of the trade spam. as you said earlier...it was spam city..the devs can't tell how bad it is just from a screen shot they need to see it themselfs.

Also I love how the explinations are set about the skill changes!.

[ikpt]

I rather like this, skill balance with explanations why.

Another mesmer nerf but at least this time i know for sure why and I know for sure that its reasonable. I hope further skill balances in the future would be like this; with explanations tied to.

I completely agree. Thank you Gaile, and Devs, for explaining to us why things get tweaked. There will be some who still disagree, but giving your reasoning really makes it better for the rest of us. So, extra thanks to Gaile and the Devs, and I honestly hope all skill updates can have the explanations thrown in. (Even the massive ones, but that's probably unlikely due to time and keyboards breaking down :wink:)

[glitched]

Sigh, Channeling just took a major hit to some of its best skills, especially my favorite warrior killer. :sad: As usual Guild Battles > All in the eyes of the balancers.

I don't like the hit to blades of steel but Shadow Prison is more than overdue.

[Jormandgundr]

It's good to get some explanations, and although my rit's channeling build has been pretty much killed, it's nice to know why. Besides, I'm thinking of making a nice channeling build already.

However, I'm dissapointed that the bugs associated with focused anger and might/unblockable throw aren't going to be addressed at all. My biggest gripe is focused anger, which actually says in the description that it gives a bonus, when that bonus is not applied.

Although I wouldn't mind seeing parries buffed in general, I believe that they should atleast have thier skills WORK, especially after the massive nerfs they underwent.

[LagunaCid]

I like the changes.
But nothing for rangers, again? =[

[arredondo]

Another Mesmer skill nerfed for being too "fast and powerful". It'd be nice to see long ignored skills buffed as well for being too slow and weak.

[Mystic Memory]

^agreed with arredondo...

and the NF mesmer elites are ridiculously weak :P

[ChinesePryde]

[/INDENT] Assassin

The following skills have changed:
Shadow Prison: increased Energy cost to 10.
Blades of Steel: decreased maximum damage bonus to 60.[INDENT]Shadow Prison was simply too powerful for its cost, thus the increase to its Energy cost. The damage from Blades of Steel was out of scale with that of other dual-attack skills. We hope that these skill changes will encourage build diversity for Assassins and Warrior/Assassins, and we believe both of these skills will remain viable but not superior to other options.


wow... I'm pissed cause of this, but the words just aren't coming into my head atm.

[TalonWoJ]

I like the changes.
But nothing for rangers, again? =[

From what I understand this was a quick fix to some of the problematic skills before the secound half of the tourney.

[Aries De Lyle]

I completely agree with most of the updates except for one gripe, Lamentation. Now it's just a crippled Spirit Burn. Why? Well, let's see, same cast, same energy, but a 12 second difference...PLUS a weaker damage from Lamentation. I don't get it. Sure Spirit Burn's damage is conditional in that you need to be within earshot of a spirit to use it to its full potential but Lamentation also needs an earshot range but it has to be your target so actually...the range as well suffers. I don't know, I haven't logged on yet to see if that's the case but from the update it sure looks like it is.

EDIT:I myself am no fan to Channeling Spike and I'm super glad with the updates but I'm just saying, hey, Lamentation looks blech compared to Spirit Burn.

[Kailden Jera]

I just love skill updates. And i'm not being sarcastic. I really DO love it.

Balance ftw.

[Hyun Sai]

I don't think that Blades of steel at max 60 and Shadow Prison at 10e will change anything, but whatever...

[gtg]

Whilst it is good to see Anet took time to fine tone ritualist skills, please take time to investigate 2 ritualist flaws that has been degraded my gameplay experience into frustration.

1. Slow casting while holding an item. (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443771&highlight=ritualist)

2. Difficult to call target while holding an item. (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439784)

[Manwithtwohands]

You noticed that too?!
Maybe it's because my main is a mesmer, but while holding an item a ritualist most certainly DOES appear to cast slower. It's annoying as heck. Sometimes I wonder if it's just an illusion or intended. lol

[MoonUnit]

I rather like this, skill balance with explanations why.

Another mesmer nerf but at least this time i know for sure why and I know for sure that its reasonable. I hope further skill balances in the future would be like this; with explanations tied to.

I agree with you there Azure. I like this format batter. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the update Gaile.

[Aries De Lyle]

I'm guessing it's just the way they cast since their animation is WAY WAY late when they finish. I'm pretty sure the numbers show up after 1 second if it's a 1 second spell but their animation is late and it usually takes like 1.5 seconds. It's the same with assassins and 2 second spells (I know cause I was a noob and I wanted to use Live Vicariously when assassins first came out because of their fast attacks :D).

The only class that will get affected by the 10 energy Shadow Prison change are the warriors but that's it since most Shadow Prison sins use Black Lotus Strike anyways.

[Manwithtwohands]

Yeah Aries. I just tested it now using the sound effects as timers. It's activating at the same time, it's the animation that is off.
Also just before the animation is finishing, while holding ashes, I can move, yet when not holding ashes I can't move for a split second after the animation is done. So it's only the animation that is the problem.

[Buddah]

Another Mesmer skill nerfed for being too "fast and powerful". It'd be nice to see long ignored skills buffed as well for being too slow and weak.
:rolleyes: Because all the previous buffs have been ignored.

I don't think that Blades of steel at max 60 and Shadow Prison at 10e will change anything, but whatever...It'll slow down BoA assassins, maybe enough that people would look back to warriors, thumpers, and dervishs once again in HA.

[noocoo]

I don't think that Blades of steel at max 60 and Shadow Prison at 10e will change anything, but whatever...

Agree...

SP BoA sins will still hold the top sin pvp build.

[Manwithtwohands]

Oh, I forgot to say.
The explanations for skill changes in this topic is totally awesome!
I thank everyone on the dev staff who took the time to help explain why they were changed. It really is a thoughtful and proactive method of dealing with the community hostility that usually occurs after skill update. Now we have a very clear reason to cite when anyone complains or wonders why something was changed.
Even my precious Discord! I have to agree with that change and explanation. :( LOL

[oxylus]

I know I'm just parroting the others, but I must say I really like the way the last few announcements have been done. Thanks Gaile!

It really makes a huge difference when you give an explanation. Same for the last update when you gave an indea of what's in the pipeline.

[halfthought]

wow... I'm pissed cause of this, but the words just aren't coming into my head atm.

oh come on, assassin took the most reasonable hit OF ALL, and yet you still complain.

this is coming from a expert ganker BTW

Thanks for killing discord and wastrels worry......2 seconds for 115 damage with high requirements?...I take this over lightning orb WHY? oh yeah its armor ignoring....OH YEAH!....lightning orb ISNT A ELITE

wastrels worry-so I suppose 75 highly conditional damage every EIGHT SECONDS is good now????

[Rakgar]

Nice to see an explaination on why certain changes are made. Thank you, Gaile.
Discord: increased casting time to 2 seconds. We have been pleased to see Discord useful in a variety of PvP and RP situations, but its rate of sustained damage output is excessive.
Now this I just don't understand. Why enhance the damage on discord, only to make it even weaker on the next change? It was fine the way it was back when it capped at 79 damage / 1s cast.

[halfthought]

it was bring abused by heros, with there pin-point accuracy....why not just nerf heros, you just made a skill

USELESS

except for

SPIKING

which is why it was

OVERPOWERED

in the first place

rit nerfs were deserved, though lamentation needs a recharge decrease...maybe to 12.

sin ners-meh I play sin alot, and they barely effect me :P

honestly, Discord now has a grand total of

27.5 DPS....WOW...I guess theres are reason why necros are

are mostly dead in GvG :angry:

[noocoo]

Thanks for killing discord and wastrels worry......2 seconds for 115 damage with high requirements?...I take this over lightning orb WHY? oh yeah its armor ignoring....OH YEAH!....lightning orb ISNT A ELITE


WTH is that?

Lighting orb is elementalist's spell.

Can you complain about Ice Shackle and say imagine burden is not an elite?

GOSH...

[halfthought]

WTH is that?

Lighting orb is elementalist's spell.

Can you complain about Ice Shackle and say imagine burden is not an elite?

GOSH...

oh yeah, thats why ele flagrunners assisted spiked in GvG while necros DID nothing, other then the occasion taint...necros and rits have always held back-seat in GVG, unless in a soul reaping gimmick team. A-net buffed rits.

and good job to them for that
:tongue:

Necros have a reason for being unwanted, necros have crap elites......necros literally have THREE elites that are worth there salt in high end
Taint, Spoils victor, and a lesser popular, but still useful (or at least in my eyes) weaken knees. One which is only good in pressure, one only good in hex overload, and the other only good a pressure.

RM is no longer a valid elite for high end

[bellissima]

Thanks very much for listing the justifications for the changes! It's much appreciated! :sunny:

[Guardian_Angel_MP]

Yes, the explainations are absolutely wonderful! I hope and pray that you can give explainations for all the skill balances from here on out so that people don't get as upset when the skills they use get "nerfed".

It is always appreciated when we are kept "in the know". :grin:

[Confusion of Minds]

Those are the permanent changes, we have yet to see what changes will be coming this weekend.

[Skye Marin]

This new format is much appriciated.

I've recently made it to Level 2 Commander, without rolling once, but some of the skill changes here have considerably lessed the potentcy of my recent build. Most notably, Shadow Prison on Melonni and Gaze from Beyond on Razah. I suppose it was time for a change.

While I really dislike the overly-defensive player builds that just cap the middle and hold, I'm not sold on the idea that all shrines give some morale meter gain. Will one pip be the same morale speed as just the center shrine now? Does that mean faster games?

[Princess eirika]

Oh, I remember fighting my first all Rt team that held the middle :shocked:

...So, I just brought 3 eles with AoE which worked. hehe

Anyway, thank you Gaile for posting and providing reasons as well. :grin:

[Scutilla]

Sigh, Channeling just took a major hit to some of its best skills, especially my favorite warrior killer. :sad: As usual Guild Battles > All in the eyes of the balancers.
Considering the huge buff channelers got recently, getting brought back down a notch isn't that huge a deal. I know I'm not thrilled about the GfB cast increase, but the buffs from last update more than make up for it (my channeler is actually useful now! :grin:).

I'm loving the play-by-play explanations of why each skill was changed, though- thanks a bunch :thumbsup:

[Chthon]

Thanks very much for listing the justifications for the changes! It's much appreciated! :sunny:

I second this sentiment.

Very, very good idea.

The overpowered discord was fun while it lasted. I think the 2 sec cast is going to make it junk again (and extra sec of recharge might have been OK), but I'm feeling kinda easy-come-easy-go about it.

[Ju Smurph]

Thanks for the heads up.

[Nobleman Azure]

Thanks very much for listing the justifications for the changes! It's much appreciated! :sunny:
yup yup, like i said its awesome to see why skills balances are done in a way and many people agree

As it has been mentioned people will still debate it but now its creates a more fruitful discussion because we have a basis on what to debate about with the given justifications.

[Toge]

I have to say good job Gaile for posting reasons behind changes. I also agree it was a good thing that those Ritualist skills were put on par with other spiking options.

I'm looking forward to hero battle ladder. Will the grading system change, or is there going to be just straight top 100 who has the most commander points?

[Redwinter]

Reasons are great. Helps justify it as balancing as opposed to nerfs. Kudos.

Mesmer skills, especially NF elites, need help.

[Jormandgundr]

Other then killing my rythem, and removing gaze from beyond from my bar(2 seconds is too long, considering I already have channeled strike on my bar, which gives more damage at the same cast time and less recharge, please don't nerf), another 2 second skill just won't fit.

However, other then that, there's no massive debuff to rits. But gaze is now dead to me.

[windcaller]

Gaile, i was expecting Mesmer buffs, not nerfs.

As long as you keep head-shooting mesmer skills, i don't believe i'll be happy. Loads of Elites are useless and you care about a mesmer skill causing problems.

Instead of raising the level of the elites to match the non-elites, you nerf the best skills, so all have the same level, right?

Alrite, i'm expecting a nerf to Empathy and Backfire, so i can easily go FC Nuker.

Give my thanks to the devs for the skill balance.

:flowers: :wave:

P.S.: when is the big and great mesmer optimization for PvE coming?:heart:

[Master Knightfall]

YAY Mesmers and Assassins got nerfed...AGAIN. haha

Glad to see Ritualists get hit as well. I think they need more nerfing myself they were boosted too much from the last big update.

[ManMadeGod]

Ritualist
Gaze from Beyond: increased casting time to 2 seconds.
Spirit Burn: increased recharge time to 8 seconds.
Lamentation: increased casting time to 1 second; reduced damage to 15..


Well I have to say channeling is dead again.


Necromancer

The following skill has changed:
Discord: increased casting time to 2 seconds.


Just like my prediction right after discord was buffed!
But it's even worse than the original version (79 damage with 1 sec cast) except running specific spike build.


Assassin
Shadow Prison: increased Energy cost to 10.
Blades of Steel: decreased maximum damage bonus to 60


The change of Shadow Prison only effects W/A actully.
The typical SP/BoA sin combo still spikes deadly.


Mesmer
Wastrel’s Demise: increased casting time to 1 second

Expected one, but why are things often overnerfed and rendered useless instead of REAL balance?
Check Jagged Bones and Spiritual Pain again, I think there is a way called fine-tuning. Things such as Tripling the recharge are not fine-tuning.

[GrimShade]

Thanks for the reasons on the skills it's a good thing to add in there. I know it will be a major pain with the bigger updates though.

Rits: Well my Channeling build had gotten buffs with the last 3 updates, and now they are too slow, I'll actually have to re-build it again! Honestly I would have prefered you to make the distance to the anchoring spirit what it used to be rather than slowing the whole thing down.

Hero Battles: THANK YOU. I had stopped playing them because I was sick of always facing the 3 healer + runner that had taken over. I think this will help a lot considering the amount of times I had held all the other shrines except the camped center and it meant nothing.

[rentauri]

Well I have to say channeling is dead again.

Nah just the spiking part of it, but not dead just hit a little bit.

[Gaile]

I will be sure to pass along your words of appreciation for the details. I agree, it makes it very much more useful to know not just the "who" and the "what" but especially the "why." I believe that while some players won't agree with all changes, having the explanation is a really great thing!

Another thing I thought I'd better say: If we do another large update, you know, on the order of 50 or 100 skills being rebalanced, I don't think we'll be able to ask the designers to provide this level of details. I know, I know, you'd like that level of detail. :smiley: But realistically, that would be a ton of writing, and that would take away from other things they'd also be working on.

So I'll pass along that you love the details, when they're possible, and we'll try to give as much info as possible in the future Dev Updates.

[Harshateja]

...we do another large update, you know, on the order of 50 or 100 skills being rebalanced...near...in the future...

You heard her. Huge update, near future. Apocolyptic messages, here we come. Ahh the power of miscommunication. :laugh:

[upier]

I completely agree with most of the updates except for one gripe, Lamentation. Now it's just a crippled Spirit Burn. Why? Well, let's see, same cast, same energy, but a 12 second difference...PLUS a weaker damage from Lamentation. I don't get it. Sure Spirit Burn's damage is conditional in that you need to be within earshot of a spirit to use it to its full potential but Lamentation also needs an earshot range but it has to be your target so actually...the range as well suffers. I don't know, I haven't logged on yet to see if that's the case but from the update it sure looks like it is.

EDIT:I myself am no fan to Channeling Spike and I'm super glad with the updates but I'm just saying, hey, Lamentation looks blech compared to Spirit Burn.
the difference is that Lamentation is armour ignoring damage while Burn is lightning.
(the doesnt mean i like the change though)

but my absolutely favorite is the number they pulled on Wasterls!
seriously - a skill that requires the target NOT to be casting a spell having a 1 sec cast???
seriously - do you even read the descritions of the skills or do you just change the numbers? and do i get points towards the lucky title everytime this skill manages to damage the foe??

[GrimShade]

but my absolutely favorite is the number they pulled on Wasterls!
seriously - a skill that requires the target NOT to be casting a spell having a 1 sec cast???
seriously - do you even read the descritions of the skills or do you just change the numbers? and do i get points towards the lucky title everytime this skill manages to damage the foe??

Ya they did make that one a bit of a crap shoot. I do support the Lucky title point every time you hit with it. The good side of it comes with non-mez's won't be able to use it at all, while the fast cast should make it a little less of a crap shoot.

[Goathands]

Oh no! The devs are on to my awesome Rit Build I used all the way through NF. :o
Aw well, didn't change them enough to make me stop using those skills in general PvE.

As for the change to Wastrel’s Demise, I'm a bit shocked like everyone else. Didn't see that coming, didn't think it needed to be there.

[Malhavoc Adhamar]

Shame about the rit tweaks but understandable. It's good that we're getting the dev's reasons for the tweaks so while some of us may not agree with the changes we can at least see their logic behind it.

[King Kull]

This is not a bad update. It is however not addressing the issues at hand.


Now we have to wait till Paragons get revamped and PvE gets the focus, not PvP related stuff again.

Also waiting for powerful but balanced useful PvE skills for Mesmers.

[Hyun Sai]

YAY Mesmers and Assassins got nerfed...AGAIN. hahaThe Assassin part is just hilarious when you think of all the buffs they received since September...

[rentauri]

Alright this has been bugging since I found out about it (and hopefully someone here knows) but why is the release note scaled from 0...15 ranks but the skill descriptions are scaled from 0...12 ranks?

[ijack]

Reasons are great. Helps justify it as balancing as opposed to nerfs. Kudos.

Mesmer skills, especially NF elites, need help.

The reason why they don't buff the mesmer skills I think the reason is that it's much easier to "nerf balance" a skill then buffing a skill and keeping everything in the game balanced.

For damage class or healing class it may mean more or less damage / heal.

For mesmer, once you bring up a useless elite useful, it shakes the entire metagame and we all know how much work that means to the developer.

[cranialexodus]

but my absolutely favorite is the number they pulled on Wasterls!
seriously - a skill that requires the target NOT to be casting a spell having a 1 sec cast???
This is pretty much Anet's approach to mesmer skill balancing in general. They look at a skill and say 'give it 3 sec cast, mesmers can cast in in 1.5'. Then they treat the skill as if it's got a 1.5 second casting time. They ignore that that requires investing half their attribute points and runes:rolleyes:

Case in point, spirit of failure Vs Price of failure.

[Lytel]

I like all the changes except for the mesmer one. It's a skill used to punish someone for not doing something, that's why it has 1/4 sec cast. If it was used in spikes then nerf it in some other way. I'm sick of skills being nerfed because they're used how they weren't intended, so you make them useless for what they were intended.

[Laura Fantus]

LOL@Mesmers getting nerfed for being able to cast spells quickly - what was the point of that class again?... :huh:

If WD was too powerful why not change the entire skill, because as it is now it's pointless to bring. Even with good fast cast values, doing damage with this skill is now pure luck.

Other than this pretty ridiculous nerf, the other changes were pretty resonable. I do like ANet now giving the reasons for nerfing skills instead of just changing them. Being a HA player, the changes to certain ritualist skills didn't really surprise me, though. :wink:

[ManMadeGod]

Nah just the spiking part of it, but not dead just hit a little bit.

Not only the spiking part.

I don't like the Rit spike actually (especially the 8v8 HA version right after rits are buffed). I like the old rift/gale build better (much more fun lol).

But I would say thank God my rit already beat Nightfall.
I ran channeling build because I don't like to spam spirits that takes time in pve.

What I ran in pve is
Assassin's Promise, Gaze from beyond, Spirit burn, Essence strike, Lamentation, Lightbringer gaze, bloodsong, rez.

That is to say, all the 3 key spells of channeling are crippled now.

And Discord is trash again, I don't think the only way to stop the spiking is making spikable skills relative useless.

Consider why you kept changing the cast time of Divert Hexes, the difference between 1 and 2 can be critical, especially for an elite skill.

Consider buff some anti spike skills such as Xinrae's Waepon, Shelter, or Angelic Protection.

[Shanaeri Rynale]

Agreed re: Wastrels demise. With an FC of 9(about the average) the cast time drops down to only 0.6 of a second, thats more than 4 times what it used to be.

Now I guess it remains to be seen how useful it remains in PvE, as most monsters don't cast that often(but they only have 5-6 skills).

But is'nt the point of the spell is to see "Oh look, not casting". Wap.

Why hit about the only spike skill a mesmer has, when the community has been told for weeks thay the mesmer profession will get a buff?

Unlike SP, It's not rendered totally useless it does kinda send totally the wrong message IMHO

On a positive note the explanations were a great idea and do help us gain insight into the changes, more info like this please.

[Lithrim]

First, thanks for the explanations. Its great to be able to read the thought behind a skill change.

But that doesn't make me agree with yet another mesmer nerf. Why do dev hate the mesmers? Are you trying to make us stop playing the class completely? Im only playing PvE but understand that skills need to be balanced for the PvP part too. But for heavens sake how much hasn't the mesmer been nerfed for now? By increasing the cast time on every second spell you are making the fast cast attribute a must. Demise without fast cast? 3 sec casting time? Lol. Completely useless. You can't base the skillchange on casting time with fast casting. That makes the attribute totally worthless.

Please, give the mesmer a chance! I love the class but every time we find a way to play almost as efficiently (still only talking PvE) as other classes you chop us off by the knee. Maybe I'll make a 55 monk or an echo fire nuker instead!

[Ultra Mega]

Updates are needed, although discord was hit a little too hard.
Thanks Anet :smiley:

[Fownkaymownkay]

Dang, Discord got hit. Was hoping they'd keep it as is. Surprisingly, Paragons didn't get touched.

[Wildi]

[dev] update skill balances
[dev] update pvp balances

fixed

[Redwinter]

[dev] update pvp balances

fixed

Players can use those skills in PvE, and the monsters use 'em as well, don't be silly. :happy:

[David Holtzman]

Why hit about the only spike skill a mesmer has, when the community has been told for weeks thay the mesmer profession will get a buff?

Who told the community this? When did this happen? I don't recall anyone saying mesmers would be seeing a huge buff...

As for WD, the skill was hit on cast because it was cast that was the problem. It was an unprecedented spike followup. It was either nerf the damage, making it useless, or increase the cast time, making it useful but more tricky. The latter was really the best choice, so that's what they went with.

[richo]

Mesmer

The following skill has changed:
Wastrel’s Demise: increased casting time to 1 second.
With a ¼ second casting time, this skill was too fast and powerful as a source of follow-up damage.

the change isnt noticable as with 6 fc or 9 fc (most common used by me atleast) will change the cast time .77 sec or .68 sec so i doubt alot of pple will even notice the ~.4-5 sec cast time

[Octavia]

Wastrel’s Demise is kinda crap now in normal use, but it still works well enough in combination with any sort of shutdown or dilemma.

[Shanaeri Rynale]

Who told the community this? When did this happen? I don't recall anyone saying mesmers would be seeing a huge buff...

As for WD, the skill was hit on cast because it was cast that was the problem. It was an unprecedented spike followup. It was either nerf the damage, making it useless, or increase the cast time, making it useful but more tricky. The latter was really the best choice, so that's what they went with.

Check the gaile chats, the second page of last nights will do, the others can be found by using search. BTW i did'nt say huge buff, I just said buff. Misquote ftw.

Like I said, WD is'nt broken like SP was made useless, but it's another chipping away again.

I understand the follow up spike argument, but there is a wider issue here. That of the perception,usefulness and 'fun' of playing a entire profession.

[King Kull]

Players can use those skills in PvE, and the monsters use 'em as well, don't be silly. :happy:

No, I would rather say he hit the nail on the head.

ANet Priorities

1. Permanent PvP re-balancing
...
100000. A full list of pve related issues



Was always like that, but still. :undecided:

[Captain Sarcastic]

I hafta say, it's nice to see why skills were changed, as opposed to guessing/assuming.

[Malevolence]

Check the gaile chats, the second page of last nights will do, the others can be found by using search. BTW i did'nt say huge buff, I just said buff. Misquote ftw.

Like I said, WD is'nt broken like SP was made useless, but it's another chipping away again.

I understand the follow up spike argument, but there is a wider issue here. That of the perception,usefulness and 'fun' of playing a entire profession.

I read the more recent Gaile logs after finishing this thread, so might as well do you a favor.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/153/gailevp3.png

And on topic, I am glad that skill changes are explained now. I am happy to see Spirit Burn rebalanced. I have a personal vendetta against it.

I see that mesmers got whacked by the bat again, but I have high hopes for the 'buff' that is coming. :azn:

[NeHoMaR]

All skills balance look good for me, excluding Discord, I know is TOO powerful, but remember it needs one Condition AND a Hex or an Enchantment. One second is already slow, a lot of times I see how the Condition and/or Hex is removed before 1 second and making Discord useless.

About Heroes' Battles, I like the change, really, no more brainless holding and/or "overpowered" holding and/or impossible fights.

Also, I can't wait for the Heroes' Battle ladder. I am Commander (3) already.

[Beta Sprite]

Whoa... I looked at the skill balances and thought "Huh... I wonder why..." and then looked a little closer and... there were explanations! =D

Love it!

[Svothgir God Zombie]

Maybe it's just me, but making WD have a longer cast time seems like it would be fun to use with Backfire or Spiteful Spirit due to how those hexes deal dmg, oh and there is always Blackout.

Not to mention WD is almost always good against Warrior primaries so I am just happy the dmg wasn't reduced. Oh and I support the masses on the subject of explanations for the skill balancing

[The Harlequin]

Looks like WD and Discord got thrown under the bus for PvEers. Nice.

[Raven Flameheart]

Maybe it's just me, but making WD have a longer cast time seems like it would be fun to use with Backfire or Spiteful Spirit due to how those hexes deal dmg, oh and there is always Blackout.

Not to mention WD is almost always good against Warrior primaries so I am just happy the dmg wasn't reduced. Oh and I support the masses on the subject of explanations for the skill balancing

And how do you expect to cast it when blackout disables both your target's skills and yours? And ~30-40 damage isn't "almost always good".

I never really liked WD. It was awkward and clumsy.

[Guardian_Angel_MP]

Another thing I thought I'd better say: If we do another large update, you know, on the order of 50 or 100 skills being rebalanced, I don't think we'll be able to ask the designers to provide this level of details. I know, I know, you'd like that level of detail. :smiley: But realistically, that would be a ton of writing, and that would take away from other things they'd also be working on.

So I'll pass along that you love the details, when they're possible, and we'll try to give as much info as possible in the future Dev Updates.



I think that if the devs could possibly just give a brief description to groups of skills that were changed for similar reasons (like you did in this one) that would be enough (and if skills in different classes are changed for similar reasons then the same statement could be used for all of them in their specific class section). I would assume that if there were an update with 50-100 skill changes that many of them would have been changed for similar reasons, so you could just group them together in their explainations.

I would really love to see this continue because it brings a very welcomed addition to player community connection to the game and the people making it. I appreciate all of the work you do Gaile, and the whole Anet team, to keep us players as informed as possible. :grin:

[thedrjay]

Yes I hope they do put reasons for skills changes as well

"overpowered", "underpowered" nuff said. Maybe that'll shut up the skill nerf whiners lol.

[Jak Shadow]

Not to mention WD is almost always good against Warrior primaries

You mean cos they never have any (or few) spells on their skillbar. 30 pts of damage at 15 Dom is not much of a spike now is it?

[Massacre]

When you buffed discord you didn't think people would spam it? WTH? Have you PLAYED guild wars?

Having to nerfs skills immediately after you improve them shows remarkably poor awareness of your own game, especially after you wasted 2 weeks on pointless "test weekends."

[Bloody Samuel]

Assassin

The following skills have changed:
Shadow Prison: increased Energy cost to 10.
Blades of Steel: decreased maximum damage bonus to 60.Shadow Prison was simply too powerful for its cost, thus the increase to its Energy cost. The damage from Blades of Steel was out of scale with that of other dual-attack skills. We hope that these skill changes will encourage build diversity for Assassins and Warrior/Assassins, and we believe both of these skills will remain viable but not superior to other options.



Nerfing Shadow Prism to 10 energy certainly hurts teleporting warriors. They cannot simply spike as often as they could.

However the change here doesnt affect the assasin in the slightest.

Overpowered Factions Build

If you remember when factions came out everyone used this bar.

Aura of Displacement.
Golden Phoenix strike.
Horns of the Ox.
Falling Spider.
Twisting Fangs.

This combination of skills was considered too powerful becuase it allowed Assasins to kill whomever they pleased. When you had 4+ sins on different targets people died because this was a killer combination. While not many guilds took this route of overpowering your opponent with multiple sins, this was just because aura made for great ganking.

The nerf that the developers took was to nerf the energy cost of golden phoenix strike and suddenly this combination was not so overpowered. Suddenly the sin had to wait for energy to finish his conmbo which allowed time for monks to react.

Overpowered Nightfall Build

Now however the skillbar for the prism assasin is this

Shadow Prism
Burst of Aggression
Black Lotus Strike
Twisting Fangs
Black Spider Strike
Blades of Steel.

While this guy is not able to teleport around the map like the old aura of displacement guy he is nontheless much more dangerous than the old build ever was.

The reason is that there is more damage in the combo and the fact that it comes faster using an IAS stance.

Black Lotus Strike gives energy back to the assasin so adding 5 energy to shadow prism is not going to hurt this guy at all. He will be able to complete his combination because of this.

Blades of steel does need a nerf but losing 10 damage only is not going to prevent assassins from killing.

If the old Combination was considered powerful eneogh to need a nerf then so does this one. I have to say that this combo is not "nerfed" at all.

Joe

[Arriyan]

Wow, all I ever asked for...

I still hear myself say: "I wish they would explain why or let something know..."

Thank you.

As for the changes? No comment on them. Never been good at that anyway.

PS
With the explenation why, you'll get a much better feedback from players, so you can improve on them.
(with an explenations that makes sense.)

[Nekretaal]

Some points:

(1) A middle of the tournament skill rebalance is highly unusual. Some tournament teams are going to need to adjust and test their tournament builds on the fly, and major skill changes usually dont happen in the middle of tournaments, because thats' really unfair to teams and anet generally treats pvp seriously.

(2) These nerfs were not done to balance skills, they were done to kill skills that were breaking the tournament. I assume the "real" skill balance (with 'better pve options for mesmers/etc) will come after the tournament.

As such the posters complaining about lack of skill buffs and constant nerfs are off-base. It's not the proper time to introduce these yet.

(3) If planned buffs are coming, and anet has hinted that they are, there's no way that anet would let them be tested in the middle of the tournament. Perhaps some of the skills (the ritualist skills/ Dischord which were just destroyed) can have usuable functions tested after the tournament in the next skill rebalance.

As for my comments on the skill balance:

IMHO, Dischord was hit too hard. Necromancers have 2 usable pvp elites, and, on average, bad regular skills. It's no wonder you rarely see them in any pvp except as soul reaping monks/ritualists.

The assassin nerfs are usuable... and well thought out.

The ritualist nerfs just kill the skills. Now, the skills did need to be killed, the spike + afterspike was too good.

Wastrels, which was the centerpiece of Europspike and a key skill in last season's gvg championships... should have been nerfed in the last skill update and a lot of people were puzzled when it wasnt. The "OMG Mesmer nerfed" players on this board have no leg to stand on here: this nerf needed to happen many months ago. The skill, at 1s cast, loses little functionality in PvE either.

[Prince Pharaoh]

OMG Gaile!!!

Skill balances seem so much more palatable when you explain them like this. Also it helps to make me feel that we are moving in a guided direction not just nerfing things when people cry about them. Not to make anyones job harder but if it could always be this way in the future...:sunny: I do PVP and can usually see the nerfs coming but this at least makes me feel good about them.

[Grj]

When you buffed discord you didn't think people would spam it? WTH? Have you PLAYED guild wars?

Having to nerfs skills immediately after you improve them shows remarkably poor awareness of your own game, especially after you wasted 2 weeks on pointless "test weekends."

Maybe someone connected to anet or anet themselves got beat by this and then it hit them on the head that omg this is overpowered :tongue:

[Fownkaymownkay]

Yeah, but what I dont get is how the SP nerf affects Assassins. I mean, 5 energy isn't really gonna do much. SP+BLS, and they are gonna be fine. It affects those SP-AxeSpike warriors a lot more, since they don't have as much energy to sustain the spikes over a period of time.

Then again, Dark Prism-Decapitate is quite a bit more common. Just...the recharge kills it.

[aptaleonII]

I welcome all of these changes, and also seeing explanations will maybe satisfy some of the whiners for a change.

Massacre, i think they know what they're doing. Don't act as if you are a higher authority on Guild Wars than the makers themselves.

When you buffed discord you didn't think people would spam it? WTH? Have you PLAYED guild wars?
Well, quite clearly, they didn't intend it to be spammed to such an extent. I would have thought that was rather obvious. I, for one, welcome this change.

[Shanaeri Rynale]

Mid season changes are rare. but as mentioned above as soon anyone saw the intial rit and assasin changes they knew what was going to happen. Players will seek to find any and all OP build they can, it's just always there. Designers should take account of it in testing IMHO. I wonder what happens if. And yes the devs do know the game more than we do, which kinda makes me wonder if they let these OP builds exist just to see what happens.

Some skill changes are a hammer to crack a nut, when a move inventive, surgical approach would be more appropriate.

I would rather have had WD adjusted back then, rather than now. It's all about perception, and perception is far stronger than fact.

It's not about skill changes to this and that, but the perception of the community who are Anets customers.

With every skill change Anet seem to upset more and more people. There has to be a better way than the cycle of nerfs. buff and nerf the buffs. It stands to reason that the weaker you make skills the less fun people have, the less fun people have the less they play.

Far better to change the mechanics than this continual cycle we have now. Anet did a great job of changing the Halls mechanics, so why not change GvG or the PvE mobs.

It may be a lot of work, but I know it will mean more happy (and therefore repeat) customers. The pursuit of PvP balance is futile(it's an arms race between the devs and the build makers) and ultimatley self defeating.

Change the mechanics, save the world <-- Watches too much heroes..

[oakwine]

This is what I've always wanted. A brief explanation of why skills were changed. Thank you Anet!

Missing on the scene, though, is some word on the new ranger stuff.

[Into White]

to Gaile:

i appreciate your efforts to explain the "balances". i especially liked the fact that the developers consider interrupts a positive thing. i think the balances were fair and long overdue. especially the ones to the assassin.

thank you for all your hard work.

[Chthon]

Another thing I thought I'd better say: If we do another large update, you know, on the order of 50 or 100 skills being rebalanced, I don't think we'll be able to ask the designers to provide this level of details. I know, I know, you'd like that level of detail. :smiley: But realistically, that would be a ton of writing, and that would take away from other things they'd also be working on.

Errr... I should certainly hope that's not the case. Compared to the amount of time that should be spent thinking about whether and how to make each potential change, actually writing down the reasoning should take a trivial amount of time.

[Buddah]

Who told the community this? When did this happen? I don't recall anyone saying mesmers would be seeing a huge buff...

It's what they read into Gaile's comments. Of course they are setting themselves up for disappointment.

[halfmustache]

It's what they read into Gaile's comments. Of course they are setting themselves up for disappointment.


No, Gaile actually said that Mesmers would be getting a PvE review and that Rangers would be receiving pet controls. Hard to believe, I know, something that concrete so far in advance...

Excellent idea to provide reasons for the changes! ANet ftw.

[halfthought]

[dev] update pvp balances

fixed

i cant believe people are asking devs to balance pve.....

that made me lol, remeber the previous "balances"

MM nerf, Agro nerf, 600HP monk nerf.......

and well I appreciate the effort, it would be nice if they put more in length discriptions, its pretty friggin obvious discord was nerfed because of spammbity+uber hero reflexes, WW because of its power in afterspikes and channeling because of good old spirit-spike. Discord needs a recharge buff to 1,
so that it remains equally good in casual, and WD....well I never even thought WD needed a nerf, 75 highly coniditonal damage isnt that great....a better nerf would be changing to inspiration or illusion, so it would be less powerful in Gvg (where it was a bit too good), without underpowering it in other areas.

[upier]

Mid season changes are rare. but as mentioned above as soon anyone saw the intial rit and assasin changes they knew what was going to happen. Players will seek to find any and all OP build they can, it's just always there. Designers should take account of it in testing IMHO. I wonder what happens if. And yes the devs do know the game more than we do, which kinda makes me wonder if they let these OP builds exist just to see what happens.

Some skill changes are a hammer to crack a nut, when a move inventive, surgical approach would be more appropriate.

I would rather have had WD adjusted back then, rather than now. It's all about perception, and perception is far stronger than fact.

It's not about skill changes to this and that, but the perception of the community who are Anets customers.

With every skill change Anet seem to upset more and more people. There has to be a better way than the cycle of nerfs. buff and nerf the buffs. It stands to reason that the weaker you make skills the less fun people have, the less fun people have the less they play.

Far better to change the mechanics than this continual cycle we have now. Anet did a great job of changing the Halls mechanics, so why not change GvG or the PvE mobs.

It may be a lot of work, but I know it will mean more happy (and therefore repeat) customers. The pursuit of PvP balance is futile(it's an arms race between the devs and the build makers) and ultimatley self defeating.

Change the mechanics, save the world <-- Watches too much heroes..
oki ill just say this.
i have much respect for you Shan - but this is the biggest pile of crap ive ever read!
i mean seriously ....
THERE CAN NEVER BE TOO MUCH HEROES!!
EVER!!!
and if you keep spreading such lies - ill kick your mesmers shiney hiney up the ceiling to keep mohinder company!
:wink: :grin:

(but yeah - wow!!! watch out!!! more mesmer pve options!!!!! - but well first take away WD! just as a sign of good faith!
it really is all about timing)

besides - right now i am thinking - we should just let the cheerleader get trashed and once the 'bomb' goes off well get hiro to warp us to gw2!

[dantheman5415]

but my absolutely favorite is the number they pulled on Wasterls!
seriously - a skill that requires the target NOT to be casting a spell having a 1 sec cast???



I like all the changes except for the mesmer one. It's a skill used to punish someone for not doing something, that's why it has 1/4 sec cast. If it was used in spikes then nerf it in some other way. I'm sick of skills being nerfed because they're used how they weren't intended, so you make them useless for what they were intended.

Wastrel’s Demise is kinda crap now in normal use, but it still works well enough in combination with any sort of shutdown or dilemma.



Um...I think people are confusing Wastrel's Demise with Wastrel's Worry. WD just does direct damage automatically based on the number of spells the target has equipped while WW (which is unnerfed) does damage if the target doesn't use a skill for a set amount of time.

[Psymun]

I've been thowing my opinion behind the idea of more openness about what's coming and why when the subject comes up for years now, so this topic and the other recent topics like it make me happy. I hope this increase in filling in the public as to why things are changed as they are continues.

Also, I agree with all of these changes. My first impression is that each skill listed should still be usable at the new numbers, and all of them were at least a little too good before. While I'm still waiting to see how many weak skills get improved in the next major update, slipping in some minor changes to tone down some obvious issues when necessary is also welcome.

[Shanaeri Rynale]

BTW Upier is talking about the TV show, not the GW NPC's.. =p

[upier]

Um...I think people are confusing Wastrel's Demise with Wastrel's Worry. WD just does direct damage automatically based on the number of spells the target has equipped while WW (which is unnerfed) does damage if the target doesn't use a skill for a set amount of time.
nope - i think everyone here was talking about WD :wink:
(well at least the ones you listed)

[Ragnarok-]

The update doesn't affect any builds on the characters I play, but I'd like to point a few things out:

Wastrel's Demise is now a useless skill; at .68 cast it's not justifiable to place on your bar and hope to get anything out of it (unless you plan on having a partner with perm KD, but that in itself is ridiculously situational and I'd just bring WW at that point).

Blades of Steel - This update, in my eyes, is completely unvalidated. It may be the highest damaging dual attack, but it is by far the most conditional. You need to tweak your bar around BoS to get its full use, and skills like Death Blossom do 40+ AoE damage. At this rate I'd rather just run a generic DB/MS/HoTO build.

Shadow Prison - Not going to change anything, except it'll just anger sins more in RA who get hit by Hex Breaker. Well, only thing it'll affect is the W/A build, and that's reasonable.

Gaze, Spirit Burn, Lament - :thumbsup: All I have to say.

Discord - 2s cast makes this skill useless. It's too highly conditional to register a need to have it be 2s. You could just scale the damage down and that would be fine.


Anyway, I thank the Dev team for their input as to why they changed the skills they did, and I'm avidly awaiting the mesmer reconfiguration. Thanks a ton!

[shadowhand]

I have characters of all the affected professions and the changes seem fine with me - the change to Wastrel's Demise isn't much of a problem for my mesmer at least - but then, I do have a few points invested in Fast Casting, so maybe that's why...

I will miss the old Gaze From Beyond, but the change isn't that devastating to my use of it.

The rest seems perfectly alright to me.

I like the explanations given for the skill changes - it would be nice if that was added to future changes so that one gets an understanding of why some skills are modified.

[Rampageoh]

Most the Pvpers on GH seem to like the skill changes.

Good changes IMO and explanation was great. Hope to see more of that in future.

[aya pe 001]

I don't like this change to wastrels demise. first of all this skill is pretty pathetic already especially in pve because all the monsters arent equipped with 8 skills

and saying thats its too powerful and too fast because of 1/4 second cast is really silly. lets look at all the monk skills that are 1/4 second and can easily counter the puny damage from wastrels demise

reversal of fortune
glimmer of light
reversal of damage
shield of regeneration
shielding hands
protective spirit
healing hands
spirit bond
divine intervention
judges intervention

and some rit skills
weapon of remedy
vengeful weapon

and theres probably more

in any case wastrels demise is now more useless than ever
maybe you should start bringing Overload instead because at least it recharges much faster and you can always count on the 17 damage to kill somebody

wastrels demise is now just a slow recharging version of flare, lightning strike, stone daggers, or ice spear. damage is pathetic in all cases.

heres what the developers say to explain the nerf

"With a ¼ second casting time, this skill was too fast and powerful as a source of follow-up damage."

but what this really means is that arenanet does not want to make it easy or guarantee kills versus a player with very low hp remaining (around 25). instead, they'd rather allow time for a monk to cast reversal of fortune or glimmer of light, infuse health, etc to save that player thats about to die.

no problem arenanet! even if you nerf wastrels demise we'll still have overload

[David Holtzman]

I read the more recent Gaile logs after finishing this thread, so might as well do you a favor.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/153/gailevp3.png


Thank you for the citation, it was exactly what I was looking for. Although, as I read it the mesmer buff is not a skill change sort of thing, it is making the PvE zones more ammenable to mesmer use in teams.

[ChinesePryde]

Sins need buffs not nerfs, but nerfing our skills it changes nothing but makes us Sins weaker, buff up our golden line and other attack skills not nerf us, give us more viable ways to make our builds. Right now it's always Black Lotus that and Black spider this, always the black line, we need more utilities, alternatives, nerfing our mobility shadowstep skill sucks, sure warriors were abusing it but end the end Sins suffer cuz of them, and what is up with nerfing Blades of Steel again? You know the only way we can even dish out our 4th dual(blades of steel) is by using that damned Burst of Aggression stance?? Cause if we dont use it, by the time we cast our next attack we sins are already dead, yes thats how quick we die but in return at least give us some deadliness, some power geez

Buff Golden Line up
Buff Sin attack skills make the power equivilent to the Black line

[Erasculio]

You know the only way we can even dish out our 4th dual(blades of steel) is by using that damned Burst of Aggression stance?? Cause if we dont use it, by the time we cast our next attack we sins are already dead, yes thats how quick we die

If you really die that quickly, you probably need to change your strategy. As far as I know, they're named "Assassins", not "Kamikazes" :wink:

Erasculio

[superiorrunes]

problem with the change to wastrels demise is that now it cant be cast in time to ensure your opponent isnt casting when it finishes. i mean, it already wasnt the most reliable damage, because it relied on the targets skillbar being full of spells.

kinda lame, IMO.

other changes were needed ones, though, and look good.

[Wuzzman]

Well channeling rits know what blood necros feel lol(I knew anet would bring the build to bspike levels). Blade of Steel is back to its former levels...don't know how much the BoA assassin build is effected by this but I guess -10 energy from the 4 attack combo would probably hurt(even though the energy gain from black lotus strike gives a 10 energy boost...). Is rit spike really nerfed to hell.

[ChinesePryde]

If you really die that quickly, you probably need to change your strategy. As far as I know, they're named "Assassins", not "Kamikazes" :wink:

Erasculio
I knew someone was gonna type that, believe me try it out yourself? Go try out the shadow prison build with no burst of aggression in it and see how you do in pvp heh... youll drop in snap
Im a pvper i know what im talking about

[Erasculio]

I knew someone was gonna type that, believe me try it out yourself? Go try out the shadow prison build with no burst of aggression in it and see how you do in pvp heh... youll drop in snap
Im a pvper i know what im talking about

So read my post again and do as I have said - change your strategy. If you think you have to always use the same cookie cutter build all the time...Well, there is very little strategy and much copying there.

Erasculio

[ChinesePryde]

So read my post again and do as I have said - change your strategy. If you think you have to always use the same cookie cutter build all the time...Well, there is very little strategy and much copying there.

Erasculio
thats the problem, its the ONLY viable build, believe me my load template list for my sin = so much i cant even count how many sin builds i got, all pvp...i assure you

and btw i dont use that cookie cutter build, im using AoD + Mark of invisibilty, Black Lotus, Twisting, Falling, BoA

edit : burst of aggression + feigned
and its the only good combo that works out there, yes there are other builds, pshh there are tons of builds

but the most effective?
=
Feigned
AoD
Mark of invisibilty
Burst of aggression
Black Lotus
Twistin Fangs
Falling
BoA

+
SP BUILD

[BlindedJustice]

As enlightenment

The problem with WD was that people combo'd it. Don't think of it as a skill of its own, think of it as a combo. It's the same exact problem as Lamentation.

A regular spiking mesmer, for instance, could easily combo Shatter Enchant (100 damage) + Wastrel's Demise for a total of 180 damage in one second (Shatter lands, 3/4 aftercast, 1/4> WD cast). That sort of damage output is far stronger than all but one other... even stronger than the age old Lightning Orb/Lightning Strike combo that took 3/4 aftercast + 3/4 LS cast.

The only other damage combo that rivaled and beat WD inconjunction with other damage skills was Lamentation, which ALSO had a 1/4 cast, but also did 100 armour ignoring damage. You used to do Spirit Burn for 100, then follow up with a near-immediate Lamentation, for 200 damage in a second. Note, of course, that WD was not that far behind this.

Now WD, in regards to a follow-up damage skill, is more in line with skills like Lightning Strike, which are quick but not immediate.

EDIT:
The two big changes for Rit Spike are the reload for Burn and the cast for Lamentation. Burn+Lament was a near-guaranteed kill for Rit Spike, but it is no longer the case. Burn+ another spell is still a feasible and fatal spike, but because of the slower reload of Burn, you get punished more for a failed spike (previously you could spike every 6 seconds, now it is more like every 9, which is a sizeable decrease in effectiveness). The removal of Gaze as a feasible tertiary spike skill will simply lead to the introduction of a different skill.

[Take on Me]

Great, another imbalanced balancing.

RiP Discord
RiP Lamentation
RiP Gaze from Beyond

No, im not saying these skills didnt require a nerf, but the problem with Discord were HEROES more so than the skill, and the problem of Rt spike...ah sigh why bother. So now channeling is weaker than it was before the "buff" recently (aside of weapon spells but meh).

At the same time Clamour of Souls is perfectly balanced i assume?

[Erasculio]

So now channeling is weaker than it was before the "buff" recently (aside of weapon spells but meh)
Yes, changing those 3 skills has made all the buffs here:

Bloodsong: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 3 seconds, decreased recharge time to 30 seconds. This Skill now falls under the Channeling attribute.
Mighty Was Vorizun: increased Energy gained to 30.
Cruel Was Daoshen: decreased casting time to 1 second, decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
Blind Was Mingson: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased casting time to 1 second, increased recharge time to 20 seconds, increased area-of-effect to "nearby."
Grasping Was Kuurong: decreased casting time to 1 second, decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
Protective Was Kaolai: now adds 24 armor when held, and heals the party for 10..85 when dropped.
Tranquil Was Tanasen: decreased casting time to 1 second.
Resilient Was Xiko: increased regeneration to 3 per Hex or Condition suffered.
Anguished Was Lingwah: decreased casting time to 3 seconds, decreased recharge time to 30 seconds, increased Energy cost to 15.
Destructive Was Glaive: holding this item now causes Ritualist damage spells to have 10% armor penetration.
Splinter Weapon: now works on the next 1..5 attacks.
Weapon of Shadow: increased Blindness duration to 5 seconds, decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
Weapon of Warding: decreased casting time to 1 second.
Vital Weapon: decreased recharge time to 2 seconds, increased duration to 15..45 seconds.
Spirit Light Weapon: increased amount healed to 1..15 Health per second, and an additional 1..15 Health if within earshot of a Spirit.
Wailing Weapon: decreased Energy cost to 5.
Brutal Weapon: increased duration to 5..35.
Guided Weapon: reduced recharge time to 5 seconds.
Weapon of Quickening: increased recharge bonus to 33%.
Nightmare Weapon: now works on the next 3 attacks.
Weapon of Fury: increased duration to 5..20.
Warmonger's Weapon: decreased Energy cost to 10.
Destruction: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased recharge time to 15.
Displacement: decreased block rate to 75%.
Preservation: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds, increased duration to 90.
Life: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds, decreased duration to 20 seconds, increased healing-per-second that the Spirit was alive to 1..7.
Empowerment: decreased recharge time to 30 seconds.
Lamentation: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
Signet of Spirits: you now gain 3..12 Energy if you are within earshot of a Spirit.
Spirit Rift: decreased Energy cost to 10, decreased casting time to 1 second.
Ancestor's Rage: increased damage to 30..130.
Offering of Spirit: increased Energy gained to 8..17.
Spirit Light: increased healing to 60..180.
Wielder's Boon: decreased casting time to .25 seconds.
Channeled Strike: decreased recharge time to 4 seconds.
Caretaker's Charge: increased damage done to 20..75, decreased healing to 5..50, decreased Energy gained to 5.
Signet of Ghostly Might: increased damage to 5..35.
Spirit Transfer: decreased the amount of Heath lost to the nearest Spirit to 5..50, increased the amount healed per Health lost to 5.
Gaze from Beyond: decreased the amount of Health lost to 10..30%, increased damage done per Health lost to 4.
Explosive Growth: decreased Energy cost to 5.
Spirit Channeling: functionality changed to: "For 10 seconds, you gain +1..6 Energy regeneration but suffer -5 Health degeneration. When Spirit Channeling ends, you gain 100 Health if you are within earshot of a Spirit."
Ghostly Haste: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
Death Pact Signet: functionality changed to: "Resurrect target party member with your current Health and Energy. If that party member dies within 120 seconds, so do you."
All spells that had a requirement of being "near a Spirit" or "in the area of a Spirit" have been changed to "within earshot of a Spirit."
Flesh of my Flesh: decreased casting time to 4 seconds.

Totally worthless :rolleyes:

I'm sure that's a very reasonable way to make criticism about skill balance :rolleyes: I wonder why Arena Net has not followed such insightful line of judgment yet.

Erasculio

[halfthought]

you know I said the balances were bad, but even then i dindt overreact-rits are still very good, and so are sins, mesmer took a big hit, but mesmers role in GvG is still dominant.

necros on the other hand.....

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444775(read my posts in that thread)

and to chinese, your not very good if your sin dies in seconds, mine certainly doesn't......

[ChinesePryde]

you know I said the balances were bad, but even then i dindt overreact-rits are still very good, and so are sins, mesmer took a big hit, but mesmers role in GvG is still dominant.

necros on the other hand.....

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444775(read my posts in that thread)

and to chinese, your not very good if your sin dies in seconds, mine certainly doesn't......
yea youve been talking **** to me in every post i posted, notice that i keep ignoring you? Zzz

[Hyun Sai]

Heeh, again some people who think that Burst Prison Sin is the only viable assassin build? Perhaps it's the only build they can use properly, in fact...

[Lord Oranos]

Personally I still use BSS+TF, but Mending Touch ruins that combo, Ive used others, but really, one skill destroying many effective skills for assassins kind of pisses me off.

[Buddah]

Wastrel's Demise is now a useless skill; at .68 cast it's not justifiable to place on your bar and hope to get anything out of it (unless you plan on having a partner with perm KD, but that in itself is ridiculously situational and I'd just bring WW at that point).

Far from useless.

Look at other after spike skills and any nerf they've taken (Savage Shot and Critical Chop). Both are 1/2 second, both are subject to attack speed debuffs, both are partially checked by armor. Savage shot though relies heavily on damage buffs to drive damage home. Critical Chop after it's nerf has a long recycle.

Wastrel's Demise is now approximately 1/2 to 3/4 second. Can still do a fairly substantial after spike with armor ignoring damage. It's now comparable to many of the other skills used in a similar way.

[Cantos]

If WD was too powerful why not change the entire skill, because as it is now it's pointless to bring. Even with good fast cast values, doing damage with this skill is now pure luck.Hello

Spells have aftercasts (mostly 0.75 seconds) where after you have cast a spell, you cant move or cast another one for the duration of the aftercast. What this means for the Wastrel's Demise user is that you have a guaranteed window where someone cannot be casting a spell, and landing your WD becomes a matter of precise timing, not luck. Skilled Mesmers are little affected by this change.

[Shanaeri Rynale]

being a mesmer spike skill the cast time WD is subject to the fast casting attribute, which when it was 1/4 sec kinda did'nt matter. Since cast time was quadrupled the effects of the players FC attribute now creates a much more random effect. For example, taking your example of after cast.

WD at FC of 9 gives us a 0.66 second cast, so relying *just* on aftercast it is impossible to hit it every time.

As you'll have only (.75-.66)0.09s to react. Yes aftercast gives you more time while the player thinks what to do next, so in effect it's a 0.09s(included the cast time) buffer. I.e in real terms meaningless

Lets add in some more delay and random factors. Ping and response time, for sure the other player will have those too. But these are variables one needs to add in to see the true effect of the changes.

Lets say average ping is 200ms. This brings the elapsed time up from .66 to .86. Now we add in reaction time, the thing that says 'look not casting' This is an average of 230ms, now add in aftercast of .75 bringing our new total time to 1.84s

The old WD was I believe .16s with an FC of 9. Using the above figures we get a total cast time of 1.34. See the effects of the increased and more variable time now? So now the randomising effects of any FC,Ping,Reaction time are now magnified.

As well as aftercast, most players don't factor in ping and reaction times into the actual calculation of a skills cast time or effect, but they are an important factor to consider in most cases, especially interupts.

Tbh the increase aint that bad, but there were cleverer ways to deal with it than just affecting cast time. Limiting the number of spells it affects for example to 5. PvE would be unaffected as mosnters only carry 4-5 skills, but the PvP effects would still get the required result. The randomising effects of timing WD would be as they were and the damage inflicted in PvP(which is what caused the change) would be reduced. Win-win

As i've said before, it's not the actual skill changes that's important it's the perception it's giving.

Re: Mesmer buffs. I really hope it is mob skill changes, and not just some changes to useless in PvE skills. E.g reduced recharge time of tease to 10 seconds.

[Cyan Hydrick]

I generaly agree with these skill updates, and the explanations are a great add.

But I still believe that no real fine tuning will ever be possible for some skills as long as we stick to the 5, 10, 15, 25 energy pattern. (what about a 8 energy dark prison ?)

[Xenrail]

Assassin

The following skills have changed:
Shadow Prison: increased Energy cost to 10.
Blades of Steel: decreased maximum damage bonus to 60.
Shadow Prison was simply too powerful for its cost, thus the increase to its Energy cost. The damage from Blades of Steel was out of scale with that of other dual-attack skills. We hope that these skill changes will encourage build diversity for Assassins and Warrior/Assassins, and we believe both of these skills will remain viable but not superior to other options.


you just destroyed the possibility for motley A/W and W/A builds as well as the W/A builds already out. Warriors aren't going to use BoS rofl.

[don Durandal]

So the existing builds for W/A and A/W that everybody was using got a hit?
Excellent! We'll see more variety for the next few days (until a new template starts getting used by everybody again).

The explanations for the changes make sense, and answer obvious concerns from the pvp side (while others, like the Jade Isle redesign, join the pve's pet control in the waiting room). Those skills are not balanced for the long run though, and seems they were just "killed" to scrap the current... I mean former ridiculous metagame.

[Relay]

you just destroyed the possibility for motley A/W and W/A builds as well as the W/A builds already out. Warriors aren't going to use BoS rofl.



think a litle bit more and u will find the solution....:brainiac:

key word --> Weapon Mod

only the Rit balance changes were good

[Take on Me]

Yes, changing those 3 skills has made all the buffs here:

Learn how to read. I said "channeling" not Rt overall.

Besides, stop pretending to be so oblivious, just look at the skills:


Bloodsong <= nerfed for most builds actually, it did not get buff
Mighty Was Vorizun <= still underpowered, the small buff is irrelevant
Cruel Was Daoshen <= do you see anyone using it? No? Well that's because there's a reason!
Blind Was Mingson <= underpowered still
Grasping Was Kuurong <= underpowered still
Tranquil Was Tanasen <= it's an elite no? underpowered
Destructive Was Glaive <= not worth it, especially now when spike is nerfed
Splinter Weapon: now works on the next 1..5 attacks.
Weapon of Shadow <= do you ever see anyone using it? not really
Brutal Weapon <= right...
Guided Weapon <= meh..
Displacement <= nerfed
Lamentation <= nerfed as you can see
Signet of Spirits <= nerfed, and not buffed as some inexperienced people think
Wielder's Boon <= meh..
Caretaker's Charge <= nerfed in that update
Signet of Ghostly Might <= meh
Gaze from Beyond <= as u know, nerfed


So stop being oblivious. Tons of Rt skills were buffed and now they are "underpowered" instead of absolutely useless. Woohoo.

Some got better, which is cool.

The 'balancing' which goes "lets make skill useless, then buff it 3x so it can be underpowered.. then people will say how cool it is we make more buffs than nerfs" = flawed.

Anyway, i agree Rt is now better than before, but being better doesnt mean being balanced. With the most recent changes i'd like to see how many will run Rt in GvG.

[Erasculio]

Learn how to read. I said "channeling" not Rt overall.
Yep, and let's look at the Channeling skill buffs:

Bloodsong: now Channeling Ritualists have a long lasting spirit that does decent damage (and is easier to use than Destruction) to trigger all those spells that require a spirit. A very good buff for Channeling Ritualists (and hey, who cares about Communing Ritualists, didn't you say "channeling" :wink:)

Cruel Was Daoshen: now may be used easily for spells that require ashes, with the smaller casting time and smaller recharge. The damage it has once dropped only makes it to have a good bonus.

Grasping Was Kuurong: armor ignoring damage with a knock down being useable more often? Nice!

Destructive Was Glaive: one of the best Ritualists buffs ever. Now they have at least some of the armor penetration, making the difference between them and Air Elementalists smaller, especially PvE wise.

Splinter Weapon: huge buff. As mentioned elsewhere, this skill is overpowered when in the right combination (with Barrage, for example).

Wailing Weapon: good against bosses, but still weak.

Nightmare Weapon: huge buff again. Makes this skill better than it already was when used witha dervish.

Weapon of Fury: would be good if Paragons had not been nerfed to death.

Warmonger's Weapon: this skill is simply overpowered. With Barrage or a scythe, you can interrupt nearly everything with an AoE effect. I'm amazed this has not been nerfed yet.

Destruction: now is easier to use, as bad placement isn't such a big deal anymore.

Signet of Spirits: is easier to use now thanks to the longer range and the one more spirit within Channeling. Only inexperienced players would place spirits close to each other anyway

Spirit Rift: this skill was already very good, it's even better now.

Ancestor's Rage: far better than the elite Clamor of Soul.

Channeled Strike: nice buff considering how the Ritualists need damage dealing skills with short recharge.

Signet of Ghostly Might: higher damage is always a plus.

All spells that had a requirement of being "near a Spirit" or "in the area of a Spirit" have been changed to "within earshot of a Spirit" : wonderful update.

(I find it rather interesting how you ignored plenty of those skills. I wonder if I'm the one who has to "learn how to read" or "stop pretending to be so oblivious" :wink:)


So stop being oblivious. Tons of Rt skills were buffed and now they are "underpowered" instead of absolutely useless. Woohoo.

If you don't want to use anything that is not overpowered...Yes, I'm sure plenty of things would be "useless".


Anyway, i agree Rt is now better than before, but being better doesnt mean being balanced
Funny, because that's almost the opposite to what you had said earlier:

So now channeling is weaker than it was before the "buff" recently (aside of weapon spells but meh)

:laughing:

Erasculio

[galad]

Why oh why you haven't fixed Divert Hexes yet?

Best way to fix it would be to give it same treatment that you gave to Discord, namely to make its cast time 2 seconds. You actually did that once already, but for some extraordinary reason decided to change it back.

[CheersMate]

I rather like this, skill balance with explanations why.

Another mesmer nerf but at least this time i know for sure why and I know for sure that its reasonable. I hope further skill balances in the future would be like this; with explanations tied to.


/agree

Cheers,
CM

[CarbonBasedLifeform]

Why oh why you haven't fixed Divert Hexes yet?

Best way to fix it would be to give it same treatment that you gave to Discord, namely to make its cast time 2 seconds. You actually did that once already, but for some extraordinary reason decided to change it back.

The reason it was changed temporarily was for some weekend event/tournament, they never said it was permanent.

[aya pe 001]

becase divert hexes isnt that useful unless you fight a hex heavy team

Why oh why you haven't fixed Divert Hexes yet?

Best way to fix it would be to give it same treatment that you gave to Discord, namely to make its cast time 2 seconds. You actually did that once already, but for some extraordinary reason decided to change it back.

[halfthought]

people seem to fail to realize that wastrels demise only does damage

IF THEY ARE NOT CASTING!

its 1/4 casting wasnt only for spiking, it also MADE IT SO IT COULD RELIABLE ACTUALLY

DO DAMAGE

[LagunaCid]

people seem to fail to realize that wastrels worry only does damage

IF THEY ARE NOT CASTING!

Oh no! Really? Damn!

[halfthought]

yeah....now maybe people will see the magnitude of the nerf....
and I sniff sarcasm in that post, well many people were not aware....saying stuff like 1/2 casting time is still good enough to spike.....its good enough to spike, but not good enough to reliably not interrupt a skill

[Erasculio]

EDIT: Never mind, nothing to see here...

Erasculio

[halfthought]

The nerf was to Wastrel's Demise, not worry, though.

Erasculio

er thats what i meant :embarassed:

wastrels demise only does damage if they are not casting-people seem to think it does 76 damage with no prerequest.....


Target foe takes 5...25 damage. If that foe is not casting a Spell, that foe takes an additional 3...6 damage for each equipped Spell.


the sheer amount of people who fail to realize this is amazing

[David Holtzman]

wastrels demise only does damage if they are not casting-people seem to think it does 76 damage with no prerequest.....

I know right? I mean, it's not like spikes are preceded by knockdowns that prevent someone from casting spells or anything right?

the sheer amount of people who fail to realize this is amazing

God, if only there some ubiquitous skill that would somehow divert their attention away from casting so you could nail them with this! Then WD would be a good skill!

[Crazy Moo]

I think you need to bold the word "divert".

[galad]

becase divert hexes isnt that useful unless you fight a hex heavy team

And hex heavy teams aren't that useful because of divert hexes, in fact hexes aren't used much because of that one overpowered skill.

They "fixed" wastrel's demise, well divert hexes is much much more broken skill.

[Productivity]

And hex heavy teams aren't that useful because of divert hexes, in fact hexes aren't used much because of that one overpowered skill.

They "fixed" wastrel's demise, well divert hexes is much much more broken skill.

To be completely honest, a good hex team overwhelms Divert. Short of taking multiple copies of Divert/Expel, the only thing you can do to a good hex team is split them (not that it's possible with Isle of Jade in the meta). What Divert does, is it allows you to keep *some* characters working at high efficiency - allows you to keep warriors clean to a degree, but a good hex team can stack hexes six deep, which even divert struggles to deal with.

The problem with hexes is a design problem. They suck in small numbers and are overwhelming in large numbers. Except for a number of ultra-high power hexes, the average hex is useless on it's own. However take along ten of it's friends and the build turns around and overwhelms just about anything in its path except a split. A good design would be the reverse, spot removal is really difficult ( I think Remove Hex was pretty good balance wise actually, same with inspired/revealed), however Divert + Expel have a buff such that it doesn't reward teams to take 3 power hexers in their build, but having a single hexer is a strong play.

[Wuzzman]

lol, how is gaze from beyond dead? Damage the same and recharge, its just that it can be more easily countered. Lamatention damage was reduced to a SANE 60. SANE it was INSANE what it did last time. How is discord dead? Damage and recharge is the same, but it is more easily countered ASSUMING SOMEONE BRINGS A INTERUPTER INTO THE MIDLINE. Which for what the gvg metagame is looking like now is HARDLY the case. Interupting a spike using the frontline characters has been the lastest trend and even a average warrior can interupt a 1 sec cast. Rit spike isn't dead its just not the rolling decent players build that it was, and individual nuking is hardly hurt, think blood necro in ra and ab....BoA sin, man I'm glad now sins can get back their BRAINS!!! (Palm strike ftw!!!)

[Mystic Memory]

I hate when people say wastrels demise is balanced because it takes less than 1 second to cast because of FC.

Why dont people say savage shot costs 5e, orison of healing heals 110, etc? When mesmer interrupts are being compared to ranger ones, people are always like "mesmer ones are better because they cost the same energy but cast in 1/8 of a second" They factor in FC but dont factor in Expertise.

I have a feeling ANET is like "X skill would be balanced with a 1 sec cast time. Hmm mesmers cast in half the time so we should give X skill to them with a 2 sec cast time." Like someone earlier in this thread said, case in point: Spirit of Failure vs. Price of Failure

Why arent they like "Orison of healing should heal 10hp since divine favor would boost it to 60hp heal!!!"

...

[ShadowsofBaldurs]

I'm not fond of my elementalist now because they've change the Glyph of Lesser Energy and Glyph of Energy.