View Full Version : Togo, Vizu and other Canthans not in the DoA?
Sir Jack
13-03-2007, 20:31
Uhm, okay, small thing I've been wondering. In the Gate of Fear, we got this guy:
"After my death at the hands of Shiro Tagachi, I found myself bound to this Realm of Torment. In my day I was a captain of the Imperial Guard. But, you... could you really be flesh and blood? Allow me to pinch you and verify this phenomenon!"
So, why are there no other Canthans in the DoA? Why not everyone who was killed by the Jade Wind? A lot of people killed by the Cataclysm are there...or even the attack on the TotPK.
Why are Togo and Vizu running around (well, Ghostly in Tahnakai anyway) while they should be in the RoT?
Plothole much?
windcaller
13-03-2007, 20:43
because they denied the invitation to move on.
the ones in RoT are the souls that wanted to pass into the afterlife.
Arkhan The Black
13-03-2007, 21:07
Well the Jade Wind is not of the same nature as the Cataclysm. A lot of the Canthan victims of the Jade Wind probably made their way to the Underworld, but maybe those killed by Shiro in person had their souls devoured and was dragged down together with him into the Realm of Torment.
Minionman
13-03-2007, 21:20
Shiro didn't actually kill that many people directly in the Factions storyline, and it would make sense that, since the envoys were watching Shiro carefully, they would be able to grab the imprisoned spirits in afflicted, Shiro'ken, and constructs, and send them to the underworld.
It also seems possible that since Shiro's spells are envoy based and not more directly from abaddon, they would not flag as contaminated in the same way, and would not be sent to the same place that the forbidden magic explosion and titan contact did.
Some of the mad souls could possibly be though to be Canthan, from the Jade wind, if the mad souls are souls that have been there longer.
Quintus Antonius
13-03-2007, 21:40
Don't forget that there is a river of souls running through the Realm of Torment. Dunkoro's son was in it, I'm sure the populations of Orr and Cantha could also be there too.
I'd say that windcaller's suggestion makes the most sense; the spirits of Vizu, Togo, Archemorous and St. Viktor did not go to the Realm of Torment because they decided to remain in the living world instead of moving on to the afterlife.
I'm actually curious now... Did the soul of Emperor Angsiyan go to the Realm of Torment as well?
Quintus Antonius
14-03-2007, 05:10
The Emperors are considered gods to the Canthans, and they apparently have a special connection to the gods as they are able to call upon and channel their power, that's what Shiro stole after all. So, is this connection to the gods/demigodhood enough to shield the Emperors from Torment? Also, what part do the Envoys play? They are the shepards of souls. Surely, they can stop someone from being sent to Torment.
That brings up another question, are the souls in Torment being sent there from death, or being drawn there after death by Dhuum or the redirection of the soul river. We have to factor in the Envoys here, and the fact that the Reaper of the Bone Pits was imprisoned. It looks more to me like the souls in Torment that are there by mistake were sent there after death, and after the Envoys already finished placing them in the UW.
aptaleonII
14-03-2007, 17:19
Togo and Vizu were inducted into Tahnnakai Temple, which is a high honour and requires great power or an invitation from the Gods. Perhaps the powerful magic of Tahnnakai temple, which allows the spirits to remain there, kept Togo and Vizu safe from being pulled down into Torment?
Erasculio
14-03-2007, 17:52
So, why are there no other Canthans in the DoA? Why not everyone who was killed by the Jade Wind? A lot of people killed by the Cataclysm are there...or even the attack on the TotPK.
Why are Togo and Vizu running around (well, Ghostly in Tahnakai anyway) while they should be in the RoT?
I think the difference relies more on what, exactly, made them to die.
For example, as mentioned in the Realm of Torment, the Vizier was given the spell that eventually unleashed the Cataclysm by a servant of Abbadon under disguise. I would then expect that spell, made by one of Abbadon's followers, to have his taint and therefore take everyone killed by it to the Realm of Torment.
Shiro, in other hand...What did Abbadon's servants do to Shiro? They only talked to him, with no further manipulation involved. I would be surprised if even Shiro himself had appeared in the Realm of Torment without the Envoys sending him there - he had not been touched by Abbadon's magic. The same with everyone killed by the Jade Wind - it came from the power of the gods given to the Emperor in the Harvest Ceremony, after going through Shiro, but no one in that sequence had been touched by Abbadon.
So, IMO, the plothole is not how Togo isn't in the Realm of Torment, but rather how that Canthan general is there.
(And now going into pure raw speculation: I think Abbadon's plans regarding Shiro actually failed. IMO, the idea was not to have him unleashing the Jade Wind, but rather to steal the god's powers from him after he had killed the Emperor. So, maybe, there were servants of Abbadon waiting to kill him and steal his power after the events in the Harvest Temple, and one of those servants would have taken the soul of the general we find in the Realm of Torment - not killed him, but rather taken his soul before it left his body. The Jade Wind would then be an unexpected event that ruined that plan and destroyed the Abbadon's servants waiting to steal the power from Shiro.)
Erasculio
Quintus Antonius
14-03-2007, 18:23
Nice write up there, Erasc. I agree. Also, the souls of Canthan's Shiro killed turned into Afflicted. Remember, an Afflicted Plagueborn is born from the soul of the person, not from the person's body, as demonstated by cinema's in Factions. So, it may be that their souls ceased to even exist once the Afflicted was destroyed. Interesting thought.
ShadowReapr
18-03-2007, 13:26
If I could interject regarding the Jade Wind, it must be acknowledged that back then the soul-catching operation probably hadn't been started. As such, the souls would go through freely through the Styx-equivalent, into the Underworld.
As for Togo... I suppose it is possible that Shiro had to enact some sort of invocation in order to turn the soul afflicted - we don't see it, but it doesn't mean the spell didn't happen.
Alternatively, Togo's soul may have been claimed by the Envoys instantaneously, whereas for the other's Shiro claimed the soul, doing with it as he wishes.
Quintus Antonius
18-03-2007, 18:00
Might it also be possible that the divine blood of the emperors gets some special treatment?
BobTheTank
18-03-2007, 19:11
Wait, so in the GW universe, when a person dies, they go to the hellish realm of torment? That must suck.
Quintus Antonius
18-03-2007, 19:38
No, the Envoys take them to their place in the UW or Hall of Heroes based upon their deeds in life. If the person has done nothing with his or her life, their soul remains trapped in their rotting corpse (according to the Prophecies Manuscripts) and if they were wicked or died by the power of Abaddon, they are sent to the Realm of Torment.
royalmagician
18-03-2007, 20:42
bit off topic, but come up in my mind is...
Togo and Vizu didn't buy Nightfall, so they cant get into it
Erasculio
19-03-2007, 14:15
Wait, so in the GW universe, when a person dies, they go to the hellish realm of torment? That must suck.
I have the feeling it's more or less like this:
Heaven = Hall of Heroes
Hell = Realm of Torment
Place for people that are in between = Underworld
So we, who are heroes, would go to HoH, common people would go to the Underworld (such as Sarah), and the wicked would go to the RoT.
(It actually begs the question of what would happened with RoT after the end of Nightfall, given the circunstances there. Would it be kept as "hell", or would another realm be shaped as the prison for the wicked?)
Erasculio
Minionman
19-03-2007, 15:35
It seems Realm of torment will become kormir's realm, and most likely changed around to become something unrelated to dead souls, so some other part of the underworld will become the "hell" in the guild wars world, if the gods decide to even keep a "hell" around. (It will be populated by various people shouting "WTS...... 1,000 plat", and other idiotic chat phrases found in some areas.)
Place for people that are in between = Underworld
Erasculio
Which is probably what Dhuum was focused on while still in power, delivering all souls in between to Abaddon who used for his titans.
It seems Realm of torment will become kormir's realm, and most likely changed around to become something unrelated to dead souls, so some other part of the underworld will become the "hell" in the guild wars world, if the gods decide to even keep a "hell" around.
Who says someone entirely evil has to govern the realm of torment? Kormir was once a Spearmarshal... things would change but only in degree of the form of torment given amongst those sent to there eh?
aptaleonII
19-03-2007, 17:15
There are some other fates for certain types of people:
Those that did not know they died are sent to live in the Forgotten Vale
Those "without valour or redemption" are sent to the Chaos Planes (the old site of Dhuum's Tower)
Those who journey into the Underworld and die there are sent to the Bone Pits (i could be misinterpreting this?)
A SELECT FEW that commited absolute atrocities in life are forced to be envoys (Anyone noticing this? The envoys used to be evil, and they decided to put Shiro right in the realm of torment...?)
The very first worshippers of Grenth became Ice Elementals in the Ice Wastes, defending his Hall. (no joke)
The fate of the dead is decided at the Hall of Judgement, and then they are delivered to their fate by the envoys.
There are some other fates for certain types of people:
Those that did not know they died are sent to live in the Forgotten Vale
Those "without valour or redemption" are sent to the Chaos Planes (the old site of Dhuum's Tower)
Those who journey into the Underworld and die there are sent to the Bone Pits (i could be misinterpreting this?)
A SELECT FEW that commited absolute atrocities in life are forced to be envoys (Anyone noticing this? The envoys used to be evil, and they decided to put Shiro right in the realm of torment...?)
The very first worshippers of Grenth became Ice Elementals in the Ice Wastes, defending his Hall. (no joke)
The fate of the dead is decided at the Hall of Judgement, and then they are delivered to their fate by the envoys.
Yes but still being a god of death gives you superiority of what goes where. Which is how I'm thinking Dhuum took advantage of. He probably used spirits as minions and others probably got sent to Abaddon so he could form his titans.
Minionman
19-03-2007, 17:54
Who says someone entirely evil has to govern the realm of torment? Kormir was once a Spearmarshal... things would change but only in degree of the form of torment given amongst those sent to there eh?
Being a god of truth involves much more than punishing wicked people, Kormir seems to be the only one clearing out the realm of torment, and no other place for a "realm of truth" is described, so it seems likely that the realm of torment will be converted into some other type of realm. (We don't have any information on realms outside of the realm of torment, underworld, and fissure of woe, so the isn't much to go on except guessing and some logic. My particular guess is that the realm of torment is changed into a realm of truth, and either some other realm becomes to torment realm, or eternal punishment realms are gotten rid of all together.)
(Anyone noticing this? The envoys used to be evil, and they decided to put Shiro right in the realm of torment...?)
If abaddon hadn't been taking over the realm of torment, Shiro would still have gone there, thanks to doing some pretty evil things during the factions campaign. It's likely that the envoys didn't know about abaddon, or are tasked enough with following a certain list of instructions, and didn't realize that Shiro in the realm of torment would come back to bite in any way.
Being a god of truth involves much more than punishing wicked people, Kormir seems to be the only one clearing out the realm of torment, and no other place for a "realm of truth" is described, so it seems likely that the realm of torment will be converted into some other type of realm. (We don't have any information on realms outside of the realm of torment, underworld, and fissure of woe, so the isn't much to go on except guessing and some logic. My particular guess is that the realm of torment is changed into a realm of truth, and either some other realm becomes to torment realm, or eternal punishment realms are gotten rid of all together.)
That doesn't mean she couldn't be a judge for the after life. She is the goddess of truth and the truth will set innocent free. It may turn into a realm of decidance or something, like a lobby as Kormir reads the recollection of your life... or her minions do it.
xD
Shallowrain
19-03-2007, 18:26
My original thoughts with Togo, Vizu, etc. was as such:
1. It seemed to me that the spirits of Tahnakai temple are there on their own free will, and serve as advisors to people who approach them. Togo takes over Kaolai's duties at the end of Factions, so I assume that it is a somewhat voluntary posistion. Vizu's appearance here is probably similar.
2. To me, the bodies of the people who died (with Shiro near enough to grab their souls) were reanimated with Shiro doing some sort of twisting to their soul. The (obnoxious) explosion of the afflicted could be the soul being destroyed along with the re-animated body.
3. The Shiro'Ken always stuck me as more obedient to Shiro as an actual army, rather then the mindless horde that the afflicted always struck me as. Some of them could have been willing to be put inside the Shiro'ken constructs (the Am Fah, for instance, seem to revere the plague, at its possible that Shiro could have approached them). If there was a soul to be transferred here after the Shiro'ken death, it could explain their presence in the Realm of Torment. (Alternatively, Shiro could have used souls from that river, or other souls from the Realm of Torment)
4. I think the original corruption of Shiro by the Fortune Teller/ Abaddon was to try and gain the connection that Kisu had to the gods. Shiro seemed well on his way to wiping out every single person who tried to stop him before Vizu stepped in. My guess is that Abaddon might have tried to use that demigod connection to weaken his prison, but was foiled by Shiro's early death.
aptaleonII
19-03-2007, 23:36
3. The Shiro'Ken always stuck me as more obedient to Shiro as an actual army, rather then the mindless horde that the afflicted always struck me as. Some of them could have been willing to be put inside the Shiro'ken constructs (the Am Fah, for instance, seem to revere the plague, at its possible that Shiro could have approached them). If there was a soul to be transferred here after the Shiro'ken death, it could explain their presence in the Realm of Torment. (Alternatively, Shiro could have used souls from that river, or other souls from the Realm of Torment)
This struck me, as well; they seem more organised at the takeover of Raisu Palace etc. HOWEVER the Shiro'ken were made from the spirits of Shiro's worst enemies- they wouldn't be obedient to him.
They could be like the Titans in that aspect- although made from possibly perfectly normal spirits, upon creation they become willingly mean and sadistic and not very nice. (Perhaps the Bound heroes of Tahnnakai, who clearly show they are not willingly fighting, manage to keep some amount of power due to the recentness of their binding, or their superior power to normal souls)
Quintus Antonius
20-03-2007, 00:23
This struck me, as well; they seem more organised at the takeover of Raisu Palace etc. HOWEVER the Shiro'ken were made from the spirits of Shiro's worst enemies- they wouldn't be obedient to him.
That's not entirely true. The Shiro'ken in Raisu Palace are described as his most loyal and most ancient.
Erasculio
20-03-2007, 00:59
They could be like the Titans in that aspect- although made from possibly perfectly normal spirits, upon creation they become willingly mean and sadistic and not very nice. (Perhaps the Bound heroes of Tahnnakai, who clearly show they are not willingly fighting, manage to keep some amount of power due to the recentness of their binding, or their superior power to normal souls)
From what I had understood, the Shiro'ken were former heroes of Cantha whose souls were taken and bound by Shiro, just as he would have done to the spirits in Tahnnakai if we didn't stop him. The great power of the Shiro'ken would then come from how great they were in life, but now they would be under Shiro's control.
(I don't think he made them sadistic or anything, though, only obedient without any kind of will to oppose him. If Shiro's mind actually shaped the Shiro'kens' ones, I would expect them to be only mad as well.)
Erasculio
From what I had understood, the Shiro'ken were former heroes of Cantha whose souls were taken and bound by Shiro, just as he would have done to the spirits in Tahnnakai if we didn't stop him. The great power of the Shiro'ken would then come from how great they were in life, but now they would be under Shiro's control.
(I don't think he made them sadistic or anything, though, only obedient without any kind of will to oppose him. If Shiro's mind actually shaped the Shiro'kens' ones, I would expect them to be only mad as well.)
Erasculio
Is there actually any evidence to prove that the spirits inhabiting the Shiro'Ken are always human? Could not the spirits that power the Shiro'Ken come from other sentient races like tengu or naga or yeti? If this is so, then the greater power of the non-human races (presuming that they DO get more powerful because of their higher levels) merged with the construct bodies would explain why the Shiro'Ken appear so much more powerful than living beings.
Is there actually any evidence to prove that the spirits inhabiting the Shiro'Ken are always human? Could not the spirits that power the Shiro'Ken come from other sentient races like tengu or naga or yeti? If this is so, then the greater power of the non-human races (presuming that they DO get more powerful because of their higher levels) merged with the construct bodies would explain why the Shiro'Ken appear so much more powerful than living beings.
All that I can think of to defend this is Tahnaki Temple (SP?) TT basically. The mission zone. It is the first place we encounter Shiro actually constructing them from the lost spirits of it's inhabitants. All spirits of which do not ally with Shiro nor were they followers. We see this at the cut scene at the end of the Napiu Quarter Mission. He captures those two lovers and uses the afflicted to kill them. When they die, Shiro conjures their spirits and brings them to their knees in front of him.
So I highly doubt anybody else, tengu, naga, etc - can be formed into Shiroken. The only evidence I have to support that is TT itself where we see the human souls being released upon the shiroken's defeat. Vizu herself is struggling as you fight through when you read her dialogue.
Minionman
20-03-2007, 15:07
Naga, tengu, etc. are sentient creatures, and do have souls, so there seems no reason to think they couldn't be used to make shiro'ken. (Though Shiro would have a lot more human souls available to him than other species.)
aptaleonII
20-03-2007, 18:57
Quote:
Originally Posted by aptaleonII View Post
This struck me, as well; they seem more organised at the takeover of Raisu Palace etc. HOWEVER the Shiro'ken were made from the spirits of Shiro's worst enemies- they wouldn't be obedient to him.
That's not entirely true. The Shiro'ken in Raisu Palace are described as his most loyal and most ancient.
Aha. These two sources wouldn't be mutually exclusive, however; in my post, i theorised that, despite being an enemy of Shiro in life, when a spirit becomes a Shiro'ken it is willingly mean and loyal- As if the construct takes on a life of it's own. Just like the titans; created from possibly perfectly kind souls, but the end result is willingly mean, and loyal to evil- as Ignis Cruor shows.
So this would mean that the Shiro'ken at Raisu palace WERE some of Shiro's enemies, but now that they are Shiro'ken, they are loyal and willing.
Quintus Antonius
20-03-2007, 19:03
That's true at least. Remember how the spirits in Tahnaki say how they can't fight it when they are attacking.
Sir Jack
20-03-2007, 21:03
Uhm, so if their Spirits are in the Shiro'ken, What's going on at Imperial Sanctum?
My guess: Their Will/Control gets banished to -I'm guessing- a place in the Mists, which -to make it easier to program- is on a cliff nearby. Their Spirit (and body) gets transformed into a Shiro'ken. Kill the Shiro'ken, free the spirit (doesn't make sense really) or have the Spirit fight back in the Mists (by finding the portal).
swHolyman
30-03-2007, 13:57
Naga, tengu, etc. are sentient creatures, and do have souls, so there seems no reason to think they couldn't be used to make shiro'ken. (Though Shiro would have a lot more human souls available to him than other species.)
I have always believed that the Shiro'ken Rangers were actual Tengu, the Rits Naga, Monks Kirins, and the Elementalists Salt Spray Dragons. It makes sense that even though they are bound to Shiro they would retain some of their true form. The Warriors and Assassins kind of look like humans. Just my thoughts on it.
I have seen many people making the assumption that the RoT is the equivalent of Hell for GW evildoers. But unless I have missed something I see little in game to support this. Yes it is a hellish place... but it seems more to me like it was simply a private "hell" carved out for Abbadon. It is populated by demons drawn to his service, Forgotton there to guard his prison, Margonites, and souls who have either been sent there by the gods (to quarantine those with knowledge, or "touched by abbadon"), or smuggled there by Dhuum (and of course the omnipresent Xunlai chests).
Honestly, though it is tempting to think so (and MAY be true), there is no solid statement in game to definatively say that Shiro was taken to the RoT by the envoys. Yes, they say they have a "special place" for him... but that does not necessarily equal the RoT. It could just as easily mean a place of imprisonment within the UW where he would have special attention. His arrival in the RoT could have come about through the God's intervention (he is corrupted by Abbadon and must be quarantined) or Dhuum's soul trafficing, or even by his own power...
I have always seen the UW as more of the Greek/Roman idea of the underworld... it's where ALL dead go. Grenth is lord of all of the dead, not just the good/neutral or the evil. He is a god of justice, yes. The ultimate and final justice comes after death if you embrace that kind of afterlife concept.
Remember when Olias comments after Abbadon's defeat on how "Grenth won't make the mistake the other gods did" (I paraphrase)? Implying that Abbadon (as dead) is somehow now at the mercy of grenth?
I see the Afterlife structure more as:
HoH - Destination for the most worthy and proven heroes.
UW - Destination for all others (much as hades) Your fate in the UW depends very much on what you were in life, and you are judged accordingly. So it is Heaven, Hell, and Limbo all under one roof. Though hasn't there been some passing mention of at least some other gods having "afterlives" for their devotees? Like the crazy guy in the RoT who thinks he's in Lyssa's divine realm?
RoT - Abbadon's prison, and the prison for others who by choice or accident now bear his "taint" (I have no quotes, but I definately remember several conversations to that affect) Not really intended to be an "afterlife realm" or a "hell".
O.K. I know I am going against a lot that has been accepted here, and I stand ready to get picked apart. But I've played extensively through all 3 campaigns, and read the wikis (and yes the lore forums) and I just see nothing that supports the RoT being "Hell".
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