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arredondo
11-05-2007, 11:02
~*Edit by Tsume: This is Arredondo's Mesmer Mana Management Statistics guide. If you want to discuss upon it or give him your input, visit its sister thread in the discussion forum. Follow this link (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4874509) to get there.*~

Like many of you I spend a lot of time trying to figure out how the best way to keep my energy in good shape as I make my Mesmer builds. So for somewhat selfish reasons, I put together this chart that outlines the energy received from Mesmer skills and combos so I don't have to keep calculating every time I try something new.

Below are all of the Mesmer energy generating skills besides Hexes (i.e. Spirit Shackles) and Channeling. Those skills are to dependent on random factors. I calculated one number that determines the energy per second (EPS) earned over roughly a 60s period if the skills were used with perfect timing after every recharge. I made sure to deduct the costs involved for triggering skills to get the final number, plus I factor in cast times and after cast for the best possible results.

All of the EPS numbers, listed from the worst energy bonuses to the best, are based on Level 16 stats of the attribute the skills reside in. As a rule, anything that gives you 1.33 EPS is effectively doubling your energy recharge rate if you are precise in your use of the skill as it recharges. Keep in mind that most of you will not have L16 Inspiration, so knock off an approximate % of the EPS as needed if your stats are lower.

Some of you may remember a similar thread I made awhile back. These calculations below are much more precise since I calculate based on each skill's individual recharge rate within a 60s time period instead of a blanket full 60s for all of them. I also account for all the buffs, nerfs, and new skills that have come out since then. I'll make adjustments or fixes in a future version since I can't re-edit this post, but any suggestions are helpful.

~~~~ Mesmer Mana Management Statistics ~~~~

0.02 Auspicious Incantation: on a 5E spell
0.19 Ether Lord
0.29 Ethereal/Kitah's Burden
0.32 Auspicious Incantation: on a 10E spell

0.33 Inspired/Revealed Hex
0.38 Inspired/Revealed Enchantment
0.52 Energy Tap
0.53 Drain Enchantment

0.54 Drain Delusions
0.62 Auspicious Incantation: on a 15E spell
0.76 Mantra of Recall {E}: during normal play
0.79 Leech Signet

0.81 Energy Drain {E}
0.85 Ether Signet
0.92 Mantra of Recall {E}: when energy is full only
1.22 Auspicious Incantation: on a 25E spell

1.29 Symbols of Inspiration {E}: if four signets are used
1.58 Power Drain

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Special Notes:

Auspicious Incantation - Not worth using on 5E spells. 10E gives you a decent return, but I think 15E is optimal (you'll need 20E to cast this and a 15E skill however). 25E skills will require 30E before you can cast both, which is tough to guarantee if you have no other +energy gaining skills with you.

Ether Lord - To maximize the energy management, hide excess energy through weapon switching before you cast this, then switch back.

Ethereal/Kitah's Burden - Remember that you don't get the energy back for 10s after a cast. Works EXCELLENT with Auspicious Incantation and/or Mantra of Recovery, especially if you bring both of these snares. Read more about my experiments with this over in this thread (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391654). For fun, try:

MoRecov+EB
MoRecov+EB
AI+EB
AI+EB+KB
MoRecov+AI+EB
MoRecov+AI+EB+KB

That last one can get close to 3.00 EPS with high enough stats!

Inspired/Revealed Hex - This skill can work decently with Auspicious Incantation. Unlike most spells, the disable penalty that other receive from AI doesn't apply here... you always get this back in 20s. Mantra of Recovery however doesn't help it. If cast perfectly with L16 Inspiration, you get 0.64 EPS. The EPS goes down when there is nothing to remove.

Inspired/Revealed Enchantment - This skill works very well with Auspicious Incantation. Unlike most spells, the disable penalty that other receive from AI doesn't apply here... you always get this back in 20s. Mantra of Recovery however doesn't help it. If cast perfectly with L16 Inspiration, you get 1.26 EPS without committing to an elite. The EPS goes down when there is nothing to remove.

Energy Tap - An average energy return skill that is very consistent on ots EPS. Unlike many energy gainers you shouldn't have a problem casting it as soon as it recharges. The long 3s cast time is a big issue however unless you have a lot of FC points.

Drain Enchantment - Fairly reliable, but less impressive for pure energy management since Arena.net nerfed it with a longer recharge.

Drain Delusions - The EPS listed above ONLY applies to Hexes on enemies placed by your team mates. If you put a Hex on a foe and remove it with this skill, you end up with 0 EPS or worse since you are now using more energy per cast. In a nut shell, use this skill for tactical purposes, not purely for energy management.

Mantra of Recall {E} - If you cast this elite just before you see some action (like the start of a RA round) and let the -10E fully regen before your next spell cast, you get the 0.92 EPS. The rest of the time you are getting 0.76 EPS.

Leech Signet - A very intriguing option that is reliable in one sense... you can use it at 0E and get the full energy return if successful. If you miss a spell or no one is casting when it recharges however, your EPS goes way down. BTW, you may think this combos well with Mantra of Inscriptions, but keep in mind that stance costs 10E. You'll get 3-5 LS uses under MoI, so it isn't too bad, but you don't get double the EPS of single use unless you use Keystone Signet.

Energy Drain {E} - Solid energy management, but too bad it costs you your elite slot.

Ether Signet - This is a good +energy skill. Like Leech Signet you can use it to its full effect at 0E. The EPS goes down however if you aren't spending energy fast enough since it only works when you are low on mana. Like LS, you don't get double energy from MoI stance since you need to pay 10E, but you can get 2-3 uses under it to spread the cost and a very nice EPS.

Symbols of Inspiration {E}:
Here are some of my Symbols of Inspiration experiments (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422617). As you can see, four signet casts gives you an excellent 1.29 EPS return. However, even more signet uses can give you a lot more since signet casts cost 0E:

SoI + 5 sigs = 1.71 EPS
SoI + 6 sigs = 2.13 EPS
SoI + 7 sigs = 2.54 EPS

The negative is that you spend a lot of time casting signets, leaving you wide open, or your EPS goes down. However it is still possible to make it work well for you, as I show in this unique Mystic Healer build (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428356) I made. One last note... Symbolic Celerity speeds up signet casts but costs 10E, cutting into EPS.

Power Drain - Like LS above, your EPS goes WAAAAY down if you miss the interrupt or no one is casting. With that said, this is still one of the best ways to cheaply get a ton of energy using one skill without committing to an elite.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Left Off the List:

Lyssa's Aura {E} - Energy gain is too unpredictable in PvP to try to calculate. Might be good for PvE however.

Mantra of {an Element} - Energy gain is too unpredictable in PvP to try to calculate. Might be good for PvE however.

Hex Eater Signet - If your energy management relies on five of your teammates being adjacent to you and full of Hexes, then you have problems. :wink:

Channeling - A decent energy management skill if you cast a lot and don't mind being in the enemy's range. Still, there is no easy way to calculate its EPS. Works best in GvG matches or PvE where more foes can return energy to you.

Power Leech {E} - Energy gain is too unpredictable in PvP to try to calculate. Might be good for PvE however.

Spirit of Failure - Energy gain is too unpredictable in PvP to try to calculate. Works very well in PvE however.

~~~~~~~

Hopefully this guide helps some of you. And remember, you can bring in combos to cover your energy needs as well as get bonus benefits (like the snares using EB or KB). The cost of helper skills like Mantra of Recovery are spread out if you have multiple +energy skills affected by it. The same is true if you use both LS and ES under MoI.

Thanks for reading. Let's hope that some of the good stuff here can survive Arena.net's favorite Mesmer nerf-knife for at least a little while!

Antillio
12-05-2007, 15:00
(i.e. Spirit Shackles) should be (i.e. Spirit of Failure) i think :) .

Beside's that nice guide

arredondo
23-05-2007, 21:00
Yeah, that's a mistake.... thanks.

I've been thinking and am now convinced that I am misrepresenting Auspicious Incantation. The stats are technically correct, however I factored out the cost of the spell that AI is used on (5, 10, 15 or 25). I think that is misleading to do so since replacing AI with another +energy skill with a similar EPS will not be as beneficial to your mana bar.

For example, let's say your build has the expensive 15E skill Cry of Frustration, and your overall build costs a lot of energy. You find you have one slot left to fill a +energy skill. If the elite slot is open, my guids says that Mantra of Recall (normal play) has a better EPS than using AI on a 15E spell, right? That's an EPS of .76 for MoRecall vs. .62 for AI(15E).

Now here's where I think this is misleading. The .76 EPS of Mantra of Recall is to cover the costs of the entire build including Cry of Frustration. However with AI used on Cry of Frustration, the net .62 EPS is only applied to the rest of the build.... CoF has already been paid for!

This is VERY significant. If I take out the cost of CoF from my AI(15E) calculations and assume that the calculated EPS will apply for the entire build (including CoF) just like MoRecall, then this is what the "true" EPS is:

AI(15E) = 1.04 EPS!

This is an apples to apples comparison of MoRecall vs. AI(15E). The difference is you are committed to using AI on a 15E spell for some of that EPS (like CoF in this example) whereas with MoRecall you can spend the energy on anything you'd like.

Keep in mind that this is no small condition since the optimum use of AI is when the penalty on the skill allows it to net recharge at no more than 25s or you lose EPS. Choosing a 15E spell that normally recharges in 20s works well. You can get away with using it on spells with a 5s - 8s recharge as well since you can then use it twice with each AI use with no waiting.

I know it may sound confusing, but overall it means that AI is better than I even thought before.

Skuld
28-06-2007, 10:37
You completely passed by Spirit of Failure , i'm going to ignore anything you say in future...

arredondo
28-06-2007, 11:15
Please do so... and while you're gone, come up with an accurate PvP formula for computing energy return with Spirit of Failure so I won't miss it next time. :rolleyes:

WhiteFox
30-06-2007, 07:22
Nice guide and defenitly worth reading!

I'll try to use AI and some others more in my build now instead of going the easy way and picking energy tab and stuff.

Thanks.

Skuld
30-06-2007, 14:03
Please do so... and while you're gone, come up with an accurate PvP formula for computing energy return with Spirit of Failure so I won't miss it next time. :rolleyes:

**** formulas, go out and use Spirit of Failure in a miss stack. You can't garner everything from statistics.

Rahja the Thief
08-07-2007, 09:35
AI is a godly energy management skill with 25 energy spells. It is now on almost EVERY SINGLE BAR I have. I use it on my monk with Aegis, my ele with Meteor Shower and arcane echo as well at times, my Mesmer with Panic/Conjure Nightmare or Arcane Echo. AI is a broken skill in my opinion. It allows conjure nightmare to be free, AI to be free, and gives you energy in addition to both being free with the obvious initial investment. I like seeing my completely depleted mana pool go to full with 2 skills, and seeing the enemy now suffering from 8 degen. Makes me happy.

arredondo
09-07-2007, 09:56
**** formulas, go out and use Spirit of Failure in a miss stack. You can't garner everything from statistics.

Since you can't seem to get the point on your own, I'll spell it out for you... your original response was 100% wrong plain and simple. No, I didn't "completely pass by Spirit of Failure" as you said. I quote from my first post:

Spirit of Failure - Energy gain is too unpredictable in PvP to try to calculate. Works very well in PvE however.

This isn't a review thread, it's a thread that lists the energy gain options, and when possible I have calculations. SoF is mentioned, and it is too unpredictable to calculate in PvP as I wrote. It also works well in PvE as I also pointed out.

In this thread, I could care less which one you use, where you use it and why. All I'm doing is putting up as much data on these kind of skills as possible. Since you make it clear that you don't care about formulas and the calculated results they provide, this is not the thread for you. Is it clear now?

NeferJackal
12-06-2008, 13:05
Any improvements for Energy Tap in PvE now that the PvE version is 2s cast and 20r?

Vana
12-06-2008, 13:39
Any improvements for Energy Tap in PvE now that the PvE version is 1s cast baseline?

It's 2s cast.
However it does have a higher energy gain/s after the buff.
(3 seconds cast cut to 2, 25 seconds recharge cut to 20)

NeferJackal
12-06-2008, 13:47
It's 2s cast.
However it does have a higher energy gain/s after the buff.
(3 seconds cast cut to 2, 25 seconds recharge cut to 20)

Yup, just noticed the mistake. So what effective EPS is it now? And in comparision to Energy Drain?

NeferJackal
13-06-2008, 01:33
Now with the recent changes, Drain Enchantment, Drain Delusions and Energy Drain needs reevaluations.

SurviverX
13-06-2008, 04:32
Now with the recent changes, Drain Enchantment, Drain Delusions and Energy Drain needs reevaluations.

Drain Enchantment is still 2 second cast.
Energy Drain is still an elite.

Drain Delusion is overpowered. I predict nerf on next update.

NeferJackal
13-06-2008, 05:02
Drain Enchantment is still 2 second cast.
Energy Drain is still an elite.

Drain Delusion is overpowered. I predict nerf on next update.

I would still like to know how the changes effects their EPS rates.

NeferJackal
13-06-2008, 13:32
On Guild Wiki ive noticed a new table for Energy Drain. Now it begins to be a truly elite version of Energy Tap.

Rising to an EPS of 1.05 at 14 inspiration, compared to 0.41 for Energy Tap at 14.

Ice Lightwave
13-06-2008, 13:58
I mainly use mesmer in PvP - I tend to favour Power Drain & Inspired enchant. I'm not a fan of AI- although in PvE I could see it being useful on an expensive bar.

~Ice

upier
13-06-2008, 15:32
I mainly use mesmer in PvP - I tend to favour Power Drain & Inspired enchant. I'm not a fan of AI- although in PvE I could see it being useful on an expensive bar.

~Ice
Btw - why the love for Inspired?
The 1 sec cast-time over Drain?

Ice Lightwave
13-06-2008, 15:45
Btw - why the love for Inspired?
The 1 sec cast-time over Drain?

The 1 sec cast is a large part of it yeah, and the fact you get complete clarity of what you removed.

upier
13-06-2008, 21:08
The 1 sec cast is a large part of it yeah, and the fact you get complete clarity of what you removed.
Ohh that never hit me!
Interesting!

Xunlai Agent
30-09-2008, 01:37
bump the thread up.
It's in guides so it does not need the bump...

MoonUnit
30-09-2008, 17:24
It's in guides so it does not need the bump...

Not to mention the unnatural bumping policy..