Lore Lounge (General Discussion and Q&A Thread)

[Quintus Antonius]

Do you have a question on something but don't know if the topic exists or where to post?

Do you wish to discuss a specific lore related article, interview, or discussion that doesn't deal with actual in-game lore?

Do you want to meet and greet other Lore Forum members and discuss lore related, but perhaps offtopic, lore topics?

Do you have a question on Lore Forum operation, posting proceedure, or how to do something?


If any of the above, or anything else you can think of along those lines, applies, please post the cooresponding topic here!

[Gmr Leon]

Just curious,why is it we see nothing about the plantlife in Tyria? Like say,how plants may have mutated or adapted after the Searing.

[Quintus Antonius]

Actually, there are a few threads on that topic.

[Gmr Leon]

Really? Never noticed. Thanks for telling me.

[Gnave]

While there are plenty of topics on the lost Kingdoms of Orr, Elonia, and the Margonites I do not see many of the surviving kingdoms of Ascalon and Kyrta. What happens after we leave, what is the history of Ascalonian cities, Kyrtan cities, what is the fate of the Ascalonian settlement? These things interest me a great deal and I was wondering if there are any plans to investigate them.

[Quintus Antonius]

There are many topics on Kryta, and many on Ascalon in relation to it's Catacombs, the Searing, and the Charr.

The history of the Ascalonian cities can be easily obtained in game from the quest, "The Cities of Ascalon". (I believe that's the title.)

[Gnave]

That dosn't cover all the cities however. There are many citys in Eastern Ascalon with no names, including Drascir.

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, the best way to find out information is often to create a thread on the topic. Since one apparently does not exist that covers your topic, feel free to create it and see what the community may or may not know.

[Elvin Drude]

i have a question regarding the runes on the Kurzic weapon in the end on the fort aspenwood challenge mission. are they the same as any others, and do they have any real meaning? i did not see them when i glanced at the compendium, and so ill post this here. :wink:

heres a pic:
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/7720/runes0wl.th.jpg (http://img331.imageshack.us/my.php?image=runes0wl.jpg)

thx

[Quintus Antonius]

As this relates to Eratimus's rune research, please feel free to post your question in the thread that contains the Compendium. I think that is the best place for it.

[Katscratched]

Just wondering if anyone has started doing any work on deciphering Canthan text? I don't have much background in the area, but I might start dabbling in it.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

I was skill capping on the Ring of Fire this weekend, and when I was standing opposite to those Riders there, the Breeze Keepers. They kept spamming Wastrel's Worry and that got me wondering who Wastrel was ans why he worried so that he had a spell made in his name. Then those ritualist ashes, urns, etc. also came to mind. Who were they?

Has this already been investigated (meaning, the origin of the names of certain spells)?

[ShadowSword]

That particular one, Wastrel is merely a describing word. Wastrel is someone who wastes a lot and is generally only used in oldie language. However the ones with names haven't been investigated. Probably it's just the inventor of the spell but it could be more.

[Zaxares]

Wastrel is a real word. :wink:

wast·rel (wstrl) n.
1. One who wastes, especially one who wastes money; a profligate.
2. An idler or a loafer.

Since the skill takes effect on somebody who fails to use a skill in 3 seconds, I'm guessing Wastrel's Worry is reference to 'the wastrel's worry of something bad happening'.

Some of the Factions skills were named after famous Canthan heroes; Teinai, whom we meet in Tahnnakai Temple, for example, has the spells Teinai's Wind, Teinai's Heat, Teinai's Prison and Teinai's Crystals. Kaolai, the ritualist hero, also has a spell named after him (Protective Was Kaolai). Karei, the monk hero, has Karei's Healing Circle, and so on and so forth.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

Didn't know about wastrel... But you learn something each day :grin:

I've not really looked at the Canthan spell names, so, that's why I didn't know they were real "living" persons that can be found in your travels through Cantha.

Thanks for the reply.

[Blobulator]

I wasn't sure where to post this, but I was thinking about the Luxon and Kurzick refugees that came to Kryta prior to the release of Factions. The Kurzicks that fled to Kryta had the last name Ulrikar, but the only five Kurzick Houses are Vasburg, Durheim, Lutgardis, Brauer, and of course zu Heltzer. I was under the impression that the only Kurzicks that exist are descendants of one of these five families.

Does this mean that there was in fact six Kurzick houses? Did the Ulrikar's all die out with the exception of Meika, who fell in love with Dalos Ekarus (Luxon)? Or did the writers change the names of the houses at the last minute? Or is there another reason?

[Quintus Antonius]

There is no topic currently discussing what you just mentioned, Blobulator. Feel free to create it!

[Blazing Liger]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned these stones in another thread or not, but I figured I'd just ask here. I found these in The Wilds near where the hordes of Maguuma centaurs are gathered. Were these made by the centaurs or were they there before? What is their purpose, are they some kind of territorial markers or something else? Any thoughts?

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/184/gw183iu9.th.png (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw183iu9.png)

http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/4871/gw184sb0.th.png (http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw184sb0.png)

[Gmr Leon]

They have been mentioned in other topics,the dragon has been related to Glint or,if memory serves right,an undead dragon. My own thoughts on it are that it is a collection of the centaur clan symbols.

[Quintus Antonius]

The best place to discuss anything relating to runes, such as the ones on the pedestals, would be in the Compedium of Tyrian Sciences, 8th Ed.

I hope Eratimus comes back and publishes a 9th edition of that someday...

[DrunkenWarriorGuy]

quick question - are the stone summit our allies after the flameseeker prophecies are fulfilled? when you go get the first titan quest (defend droks, iirc) the box you have to tick says something along the lines of 'as a friend of the stone summit, i agree'. Sorry I don't have a screenshot.

[Quintus Antonius]

The Stone Summit are our enemies. After the Flameseeker Prophecies, they are more or less defeated, or at least, leaderless.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

here is the screenshot of what he was talking about

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/74/friendofstonesummitfj8.png

it is somewhat disturbing

[Durza the Shadeking]

It should read Deldrimor Dwarves if anything. If it isn't a bug on the developers part, I don't know.

[Quintus Antonius]

Might be sarcasim.

[Zaxares]

It's probably a mistake by the developers. I'm certain it should read 'Deldrimor Dwarves'.

[Gmr Leon]

Might be sarcasm.

If Quintus is right,then it would make sense.

Simply because the Granite Citadel is locked between two major Stone Summit armies and the Deldrimor Dwarves are stuck there in the fray. So it would make sense if our character's were to say that in a sarcastic tone.

[Quintus Antonius]

Yup, it's an ironic sarcastic play-on-words. We have had "great" relations with the Stone Summit, and now we have to fight them once again, so as "friends" of them, we are more than "happy" to "greet" two flanking Summit armies.

[Kalidri]

I did a brief search but did not see anything on this - has anyone done a zoological survey of Tyria (other than pets)? As in all the non pet critters? Seagulls, bats, bunnies etc? I have pictures of all the various butterflies and I would love to expand on this.

[Quintus Antonius]

So far as I know, no one has done something like that for the areas you are describing. I'm sure it would be a most enlightening paper. Feel free to proceed if it is something you are interested in doing.

[Kalidri]

Cool...the pig section is going to be very entertaining :D

[Gmr Leon]

With all our theories floating around and being mentioned like fact alot of time I see it as confusing to seperate fact from theory for a newcomer. For example the Margonites being an ancient branch of the Luxons. We don't have any information to really prove this, yet it is mentioned as though it is fact. And if we continually do this many newcomers will not be able to see the difference between what is known fact and a simple theory. Especially for those that do not know much of the lore already it will become very confusing.


While it can be fixed through a simple asking of a question, not many will do this because they think it's proven fact. I just thought that this should be a sticky or something to help newcomers learn that not everything in the Lore Forum is proven fact..

[Quintus Antonius]

The problem, my friend, is that, regardless of what I sticky, or what we do, people won't listen. The best way to handle this is to just gently handle those who do it, and try not to be too rude. It's hard I know.

[Gmr Leon]

Eh,I just thought it should be mentioned because alot of people assume that the Margonites actually were an ancient branch of the Luxon armada. I mean,we just don't know/don't have any evidence to prove this. Sure,that's just one example,but I've noticed it's one of the most recently mentioned-as-fact ones.

Sadly though you are right (as usual. >_>) that people will not listen and honestly they probably wouldn't even read the sticky if you did do so. Oh well,take care of one misunderstanding at a time,right?

[Quintus Antonius]

That's all we can really do, Leon.

[Dria El]

:wave: I love what you've done with the place!

I don't know if this has been brought up before and I wasn't sure exactly where to put it so here goes...

Ive been reading this forum for awhile and never really posted. Im having a really hard time forming any sort of definitive opinion on any of the lore or storyline for one reason. Arena.net seems to have a serious 'word problem' and I think this is where those of us who visit here mostly differ.

By 'word problem' I simply mean, they do not have a cohesive way of presenting the same information everywhere. Take for example the skills. How they word them varies widely even if they're presenting the same concept. I'm not sure how to resolve it aside from Anet hiring one person/team to rework it (well, just about everything really).

Has there been any headway made as far as the lore is concerned that I havent seen or are we just making do with the tainted information as we've found it?

[Drec Sutal]

I'm not sure what you're asking. The lore forum doesn't include anyone from ANET's story dept so we don't have confirmation on anything, but there are plenty of theories that give more insight then the words you'll find ingame. Logic has helped draw conclusions from scattered facts.

This isn't the lore forum, though... posting what you'd like to be true is not encouraged, only what the facts seem to point to (at most!).

[Quintus Antonius]

This isn't the lore forum, though... posting what you'd like to be true is not encouraged, only what the facts seem to point to (at most!).

Um..what? I thought this was the Lore Forum......

[Dria El]

Right... and this is the lore forum.

But what Im saying is that in trying to put 2 and 2 together one needs to know the definition of 2 and if Anet is using it in many different contexts (read: using different definitions) then it makes it extremely difficult to put those 2's together with any certainty. We know (Ive seen it posted time and time again) that the timeline is (from all sources) not accurate. So, what I'm asking is if there's any general consensus on which parts/definitions/contexts these various concepts are being used are correct.

I guess the shortest way would be to ask is if there is or has anyone started a Lore Encyclopedia (for lack of a better term) so that everyone can be on the same page about (at least the agreed upon/most likely) concepts, places, people, etc.?

[Quintus Antonius]

I guess the shortest way would be to ask is if there is or has anyone started a Lore Encyclopedia (for lack of a better term) so that everyone can be on the same page about (at least the agreed upon/most likely) concepts, places, people, etc.?

That be a hefty task! I believe a few people are working on a glossary though.

[Dria El]

Awesome! Can't wait to see it when it's done. :)

[Quintus Antonius]

Here is an interesting tidbit of information from the Nightfall Manuscripts:

*spoiler*

"Civilizations arise to defend humanity, but sometimes civilizations fail." (Nightfall 24)

I believe that is a nod to the Mursaat and their attempted imprisonment of Abaddon. Notice it doesn't say "Humans rise up" or "Heros rise up", it distinctly says "civilizations rise up". From the context of the Manuscripts, they are speaking about the recent past. The only civilization to fall recently in Guild Wars is that of the Mursaat. Thus I believe this sentence to mean "The Mursaat rose up to defend humanity (or the world), but were destroyed."

Obviously, this is only one possible interpretation of the statement, but in context with the rest of the game, the Mursaat seem to make the most sense in this context.

[Drec Sutal]

I see nothing that says that the mursaat have shown any benevolence toward humanity.

Seriously, we have no idea what was in there besides the titans. Maybe if we went through the door too soon we would find Abaddon in a state that we could re-bind or even kill him? Maybe the the Mursaat themselves didn't know what was there, maybe they thought it could kill them (or maybe Abaddon really would!)

The Mursaat *have*, however, shown malice toward humans. And don't say demanding human sacrifice is their way of saying "Hello we respect your culture and only want to save you." They took over a nation and killed at a whim in order to expand their power to meet their own ends.

Seriously, that just seems to me to be referring to *us* and saying we don't *have* to succeed. It seems to me to be just building suspense...

[Quintus Antonius]

Actually, my research has shown that Abaddon does have a link to the Door of Komalie. Also, official sources have confirmed that the Lich and Shiro were both under Abaddon's influence (how, we don't know yet). The Lich was trying hard to destroy the Mursaat and open the Door of Komalie.

We don't know much about the Mursaat, and I would hardly call their actions "malice", especially since they were the only things standing between the world and destruction by the Titans for at least 300 years.

As for benevolence, it's not like they stopped the Charr from invading Kryta or anything...

[Quintus Antonius]

Here's an interesting thing I noticed. While it is believed that the White Mantle symbol is actually a stylized Mursaat, an idea first proposed by Eratimus, and one which I support, the symbol could also reasonably be argued to bear a resemblence to a Seer.

[Ragnarok-]

I see nothing that says that the mursaat have shown any benevolence toward humanity.

Seriously, we have no idea what was in there besides the titans. Maybe if we went through the door too soon we would find Abaddon in a state that we could re-bind or even kill him? Maybe the the Mursaat themselves didn't know what was there, maybe they thought it could kill them (or maybe Abaddon really would!)

The Mursaat *have*, however, shown malice toward humans. And don't say demanding human sacrifice is their way of saying "Hello we respect your culture and only want to save you." They took over a nation and killed at a whim in order to expand their power to meet their own ends.

Seriously, that just seems to me to be referring to *us* and saying we don't *have* to succeed. It seems to me to be just building suspense...

Actually, if you recall, the prophecies had deemed it that the chosen would kill the Mursaat. If you think about it, they were acting in the best interest of the world. Kill a few to save many. If they die, how can they protect the world? Who would stand up in their place?

Here's an interesting thing I noticed. While it is believed that the White Mantle symbol is actually a stylized Mursaat, an idea first proposed by Eratimus, and one which I support, the symbol could also reasonably be argued to bear a resemblance to a Seer.

The only thing about a Seer is that the White Mantle don't really know of them, as far as I can tell. The Mursaat do, but that still holds no sway over why the White Mantle would. I mean, logically, it could make sense, but realistically, wouldn't the White Mantle have (tried to) kill the Seer? As they're the arch-nemesis of the Mursaat, their gods.

[Quintus Antonius]

It was just an off-hand observation.

[Ragnarok-]

It was just an off-hand observation.

x.x sorry, I didn't try to appear rude or snobbish.

I can see how it would appear as such, though. But could it be a possibility that the Mursaat and the Seer(s) have common ancestry? I don't know if this is mentioned anywhere.

[Quintus Antonius]

I believe it is quite possible. People who hate each other the greatest are often the most similar, and the similarities between the Mursaat and Seers cannot be dismissed.

[Gmr Leon]

I believe it is quite possible. People who hate each other the greatest are often the most similar, and the similarities between the Mursaat and Seers cannot be dismissed.

Could it be that in the time before they ever stepped foot on Tyria that there was an argument had between the Mursaat? Perhaps there was unrest on the decision to expand onto the Tyrian continent and the arguments sparked up a civil war between the Mursaat. Maybe all the Mursaat that disagreed with the idea to expand were captured by the ones who did want to and stripped of their wings. They were then imprisoned or escaped to continue their fight against them.

We never have seen behind the Mursaat's masks or helmets. That could also explain the robes the Seers wear. They were used simply to hide the scars of where their wings used to be.

Or rather than that idea it could be that the Mursaat overthrew their council of elders or whatever. The council may have been made up of the Seers. The Mursaat still loyal to them joined on their side and waged war with the ones disloyal to them. It could be as simple as the Seers had enslaved the Mursaat as their workforce and eventually they grew in power and fought a war with them. That or it could have been the other way around,Mursaat enslaved the Seers.

Just a few ideas to toss around there.

[Quintus Antonius]

I'm not sure if they are from the same species. From indications, the Seers are from another planet or dimension, while the Mursaat are from Tyria. But there is likely some political or cultural link between them.

[Gmr Leon]

Well I did make other suggestions unrelated to them being of the same species. Although as to the indications that they may be from another universe or dimension. I sort of doubt that idea myself though..Seems a bit of a wild claim..

[Ragnarok-]

Well I did make other suggestions unrelated to them being of the same species. Although as to the indications that they may be from another universe or dimension. I sort of doubt that idea myself though..Seems a bit of a wild claim..

I agree with this, but while looking back at the Seer's history, it seems that (s)he has been just observing for quite some time, rather than interfering intrinsically with the problems of Tyria. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to believe there's no other place in the GWverse than the Tyrian world, but in all honesty, as new chapters arrive, who's to say we won't find other civilizations? After all, Torment is a different plane... there's nothing saying that there aren't others where the Seer race lived, or where the Mursaat were born (or created?).

[Gmr Leon]

No,I do believe there are other worlds out there. I just don't believe the Seers are entirely from a different world,though if we do get information saying that they are I'll believe it.

[Zaa Nayazu]

"They say that ours was the first, but that the gods created other worlds after the Exodus."

From Kenan the Scribe. There are other worlds out there, we just having seen any.

I always thought the Seers came from another world. I cant remember where I read something that led me to believe that. Maybe a quote. I'll try and find it.

[Rognik]

In some random online surfing, I came across this Wikipedia page. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon_%28demon%29) I know that it was already pointed out that 'Abaddon' means destruction in Hebrew, but there seems to be some slight lore of a demon named Abaddon out there. Just felt that this was interesting and wanted to share. If this should be in a different section, I apologise.

[Quintus Antonius]

It's not a real-life reference of Abaddon, Abaddon is a in-game reference to it. Nightfall is basically ANet's take on the Apocolypse with a Tyrian spin.

I'm not really sure what to do with this thread. It really doesn't have much of a purpose. I think I may merge it with one of the existing threads on Abaddon...

EDIT: Okay, I merged it into the Lore Lounge, seemed like a good place, since it's just about general discussion.

[Tanith]

...I've been posting on this site for a while, but have never really checked out the Lore Forum until this weekend. I was researching the Mursaat for a little article I'm doing for the gaming website I'm affiliated with, and wanted to see what was out there besides what the good folks at GuildWiki have put together.

Well, I sat up until nearly one AM Friday night, reading the findings of Quintus and the other GW scholars here, marvelling at the incredible amount of work and care they've put into their articles (makes what I've been doing look like an MTV Pop-Up video, to be honest). Looks like the game developers were impressed enough with your work to immortalize you in the form of NPC's, I see. :wink:

My project started out as a way of keeping myself amused while I wait for a new video card so I can actually start playing again, but I might take it step further if I can get anyone in my little guild interested. The idea of expeditions to learn about our fabulous gameworld is a refreshing one, and one I intend to propose to my guild.

You've done a fantastic job here. Keep up the good work.

Tanith :smiley:

[Quintus Antonius]

Hey thanks again for your praise Tanith. I moved your post to the Lore Lounge here, for two reason: first because it isn't really a "lore" thread, but still relates to lore, and second because I want people to remember it still exists! =P

Thanks again, I'm glad you are enjoying the forum we've worked to build.

[Quintus Antonius]

I'd like some community input on an idea I'm mulling around with. Would you guys like to see a "Lore Forum tips" thread? Lots of people have come in lately and asked some painfully obvious questions, and then afterwords claim ignorance because they have not read the Manuscripts, don't do quests, or don't watch cinemas. Then there are the people who can't be bothered to use the search feature, or even read any other article.

So what I was thinking was that maybe myself and a people who have been around for awhile might create and post in a thread giving advice for effectively reading the Lore Forum, writing articles, and asking questions.

Then again, the Theory v. Hypothesis thread still only has 50 views... What do you guys think?

[Zaa Nayazu]

I think its a great Idea. I wish I could help, but I have no idea what I could bring up to the table.

[Barinthus]

Well while it won't stop people from being like that, it might help cut down on the numbers. If it's something you and someone else are motivated to do, go for it.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

more useful would be a fully updated all inclusive edition of the thingy that used to include all of the information we found and begins with a P.

So that all of the information would be in one source.

[Quintus Antonius]

I'm surprised this has never been brought up:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Talk:Gwen#Gwenny_is_dead.3F

Notice the picture included there. Can we debunk this image?

[Gmr Leon]

Yes, turns out the person who posted it was on GameAmp and according to him his guildmate told him later that he had photoshopped it. Nice job on that though...

[Barinthus]

Haha some of those comments are hilarious.

I still smack myself on the head with my keyboard for not keeping that shattered tapestery I found before it got removed :(

[maina]

Hiya,

Sorry to interrupt and I hope you don't mind, I have a dilemma that I think only this forum can help me with, and I choose the lounge to post my casual questions, instead of making a unnecessary thread.

My dilemma is this. When NF came out I decided Mainas' ancestors where survivors of the ill fated pilgrimage from Elona to the crystal desert. I'm not sure what the life expectancy of non-rezzing families are.Using the Mouvelian calender. 868A.E. is when Turi Ossa led the pilgrimage for ascension. 1070A.E. is the time of the searing(?) Say I was 15 at the searing, how many generations back could the pilgrimage have been?

I'm trying to think of a way that allows me to have not really known where my family came from (both parents still alive) till the crisis in Elona.

A last note, I'm trying to work this out because I'm inviting some friends, and then some Guild mates, to recreate the pilgrimage (symbolically) with me. As chapter 3 ends the story that began in chapter 1, I'd like to make the chap 3 to 1 voyage that my family did. :smiley:

Please feel free to correct me on anything I got wrong and Thanks for any help,

Maina

[Quintus Antonius]

A generation is typically marked by a hundred year period, although this can vary in prolific families. Average life expectancy in the middle ages was about 40, but the technology of Guild Wars seems to be more appropiate to the time of Rome, when life expectancy was 60-70, and longer in some cases. Also factoring in magic and restoration magicka, it would be safe to say that life expectancy in Guild Wars is roughly in that 60-70 range, assuming there aren't any catastrophic happenings. Like the Middle Ages, and unlike Roman times, people very rarely died of natural causes. In fact, there is no one we have been exposed to in Guild Wars thus far that has met their end naturally.

Of course, it is unlikely anyone who took the pilgramage to the Desert with Turai Ossa would be alive to reach Ascalon. All the pilgrams (yes all of them) were wiped out by the deployment of WeaponX.

[maina]

Hiya,

All the pilgrams (yes all of them) were wiped out by the deployment of WeaponX.

Now I think I remember that. I think I'll still have to stretch it a bit and say maybe thats why the family keep it's origins secret, there where survivors but what they knew and witnessed had to be kept secret. :wink:

I can work with the 60-70. Not everyone is heal able or rezz able, so maybe 3 generations, with some early deaths?

Another dumb question, haven't had much time (read lazy) to search, did Lions Arch exist before the sear?

Thanks again for your help,

Maina

[Quintus Antonius]

Considering it is the capital of Kryta, contains the ancient palace of King Doric, and a well established order of royal guards (the Lion Guard), I'd say that's an affirmative. Lion's Arch has existed for at least 1000 years. Furthermore, if you talk to people in Pre-Searing Ascalon, they tell you anything you need can be found in Lion's Arch, but you have to cross the Shiverpeaks to get there. I remember when I was first starting out, I was excited to do that, but then the fire fell from the sky, and you know the rest of the story.

[Barinthus]

Oh how I hated the Charr for that - I had murder in my heart for them. Imagine my surprise when Rurik proposed leaving for Kryta. I wanted to stay and kill as many Charr I could. I figured maybe he wanted to create a base to launch hit and run raids that sort of thing.

Boy, I was in for a surprise ha ha.

[maina]

Hiya,

Thanks alot, You answered the questions I needed and set me on the right way.

Oh how I hated the Charr for that - I had murder in my heart for them. Imagine my surprise when Rurik proposed leaving for Kryta. I wanted to stay and kill as many Charr I could. I figured maybe he wanted to create a base to launch hit and run raids that sort of thing.

Boy, I was in for a surprise ha ha.

I spent my time worrying about my family, I had been sent to school at Ascalon. Imagine my surprise when I helped Prince Rurik lead the people through the Frost Gate and found my parents alive. :smiley:

Thanks again, a big help.

Maina

[Quintus Antonius]

I still hate the Charr. I took pleasure in leading the surviving Charr into a horde of demons in the Realm of Torment. I rez, you don't, take that you freaking catmen.

I'll never get a long with the Charr, so I'm hoping that Chapter 4 doesn't make me save their furry butts.

[Nanashi]

Heh What if we find allies of a dog-like race to combat the Charr. That would be fricken awesome. My sidekick would be an Alaskian Malamute, standing at 7 ft, named Tiny. xD

[Ranger Nietzsche]

I'd totally join the Charr. Genocide never appealed to me. And we perform too much of it as humans.

[Quintus Antonius]

So who's up for the Pro-Mursaat in EotN rally?

[Gmr Leon]

So who's up for the Pro-Mursaat in EotN rally?

I was just wondering if you had posted about. Heh..Viva la Mursaat! Viva la Charr! Viva la Tyria!

[Quintus Antonius]

Viva los Mursaat, since the word is masculine and plural.

But yeah, let's organize this. How about a Saturday around Noon EDT, or 5GMT, in Lion's Arch ID1. What day should we do this?

[Gmr Leon]

*about that. To my previous post.

What does los mean? The same as la? Anyway, timewise I work in the EST time zone, so anytime that's EST time friendly is good for me. Day? I'd say Friday or Saturday as most people aren't as busy on those days.

When it came to places I kept thinking of somewhere in the Maguuma Jungle because we know the Mursaat inhabited some part of the Maguuma at one time. :laughing:

[Quintus Antonius]

Bloodstone Fen, haha.

In Spanish, la (feminine) and el (masculine) are pretty much the equivalent of "the". Generally masculine nouns end with "o" and feminine nouns end in "a", but its a bit more complicated than that. "Los" is the plural form of "el" and "las" is the feminine form of "la".

[CMEPTb]

Ill come show support!

[Gmr Leon]

..Er..I was thinking more in the terms of Viva la France! Where Spanish comes into that I understand, but not precisely what I was aiming towards..

[Quintus Antonius]

That's "le" not "la".

[Quintus Antonius]

I found something interesting while doing some research on another topic the other day. Janthir was apparently an ancient Saxon god of protection and retribution.

I also did some translation work on the Mursaat's names, and most of them are Anglo-Saxon or Greek. Fascinating.

[Gmr Leon]

Oh it's "le", the way you hear it pronounced sometimes it sounds more like "la".


Anyway, that is interesting. Especially since in a way the Mursaat were the protectors of Tyria from the Titans.

[fishy go moo]

can anyone post a picture of abaddon and the lich cuz i wanna see what they look like and dont give me any of that beat the game crap cuz thats your opinon and yes ive googled it and found nonthing

[Quintus Antonius]

Why don't you just look in the wiki? Any GW wiki. They all have pictures of both.

[Troal]

I so very much want to use a picture of Abaddon's head as my avatar but alas... spoilers...

[Quintus Antonius]

Somehow this thread ended up in Elona Lore. Hm, well I moved it back to where it belongs.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

After reading some thread in the CDF, I decided to come here and offer my help here (as it won't be burried in other posts...)

In that thread I offered my help for putting a lore section on the GWO wiki. I stand by my offer, as I'm very interrested in the lore, but find it very hard to find anything in this forum.

I was thinking of putting up a framework for you to fill. But I'll only do it if I know I can count on you to fill it up. In my opinion, it's better to not having a page, than to have a page that says: "Will be filled in later."

If you don't know how to format for the wiki, you can also PM me your text and I'll put it in the Wiki.

You can always PM me if you have questions, I should respond very quickly.

(oh, personal request would be to have a timeline of events that happend in Tyria, Cantha, and Elona. That could be a starting point for all the lore you've gathered here, make it a true Encyclopedia of Tyria)

[Quintus Antonius]

Lady Rhonwyn, there is a unified timeline, and a very comprehensive one, in the Nightfall Manuscripts.

Anyway, I think we need to reach some kind of consensus among the community as to how we want to organize this. Kaliden Jera had a nice little post in his GWO blog where he gave a topic and then briefly explained the theories behind each one. I think that this may be the best way to go about it, and certainly, this can be put into a wiki format. Right now, we need able hands to help out on this. I appreciate your help Lady, it is a step in the right direction for sure.

[Laken Cascade]

I noted that the recent scribe seems to be more ingame textful and could actually be used as Lore , howeve ri was wondering if it is at all deemed Lore or just Gaile being her normal PR self

[Sir Jack]

Sometimes.
Meaning rarely actually...

[Ranger Nietzsche]

I would say no. And why do you assume the scribe is Gaile?

[Laken Cascade]

Because its PR , its interacting with the public , i just fele its Gaile then again i have been proven wrong

[seamussheridan]

Gaile has gone to great lengths to state she is not PR. Anet has a different department for that.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

Community Relations (CR) is a subset of PR. So when Laken refers to the Scribe as PR, he is probably using it in the CR meaning, since the Scribe is specifically addressing the community of players, not the public.

In that sense his connection is correct.

But the Frog is also CR, and the Frog has been shown to be a vehicle for multiple staff members in ANet, including Gaile a few times.

[Quintus Antonius]

Occasionally the Scribe can divuldge some things that aide in the processes that go on here in the Lore Forum, however, the Scribe itself, as a community (ie breaks the Fourth Wall) oriented publication is not really considered lore.

[Skyy High]

Does it really break the fourth wall? Yes, it's published to the community online, but that shouldn't be a reason to discount it as lore. The Scribe seems to talk to us as if we were just citizens of Tyria, Elona, or Cantha, reading the writings of some wandering monk.

At the least, he provides actual lore reasons for us to have the festivals that we have (bar Wintersday and Halloween; those existed before the Scribe). But cmon, without his or her scroll, we would have no idea why lore-wise we decided to get drunk and collect four leaf clovers, or eat chocolate bunnies, as these things didn't have any previous lore connections.

[Quintus Antonius]

I noticed something interesting today. Some of the henchman say some very pro-Mursaat things. For instance, in the Ring of Fire islands, Devona says "If I had an arch enemy, this is where I would want to imprison him too." It's interesting how they acknowledge the Mursaat have an archenemy imprisoned in the Ring of Fire. How the heck does the henchman know that? At the time of the story, we haven't yet found that out.

[Skyy High]

Well, we think at that time that we are going to the Fire Islands to release some kind of power to defeat the Mursaat...perhaps Devona and crew just inferred that this "power" would be an ally of sorts, which of course would be an enemy of the Mursaat.

[Nanashi]

Well, we think at that time that we are going to the Fire Islands to release some kind of power to defeat the Mursaat...perhaps Devona and crew just inferred that this "power" would be an ally of sorts, which of course would be an enemy of the Mursaat.

Glint presumed, in these words, that the Ring of Fire was some form of weapon that had the potential to destroy both good and evil. It was just typical we would have to seek it because form our view the Mursaat would of used it to destroy good.

[Quintus Antonius]

Yeah, but never does she say that it's a person. In fact, it wasn't a person (directly).

[Troal]

Forgard Axemighty in the Ring of Fire mission outpost also seems to know that there is something imprisoned behind the door. "No matter how frightened they are of the creatures behind the Door, they are more frightened of you."

Perhaps Vizier Khilbron told them stuff while we weren't looking? Or maybe they were just really lucky guesses.

[mrmango]

I'd say lucky guess.

NEW LORE BULLETIN ON IGN! Check guildwars.com for a link!

[Quintus Antonius]

Or just look in the EotN Lore forum.

[Quintus Antonius]

While doing the Gates of Kryta, I noticed the Mantle Seekers say some interesting things. For instance, "The war against the divine is coming soon..." and they also mention the Divine Caretakers. I assume the last one is the Mursaat, and the first one refers to the animosity they seem to hold against the gods. It sounds like they were quoting Unseen scripture.

[Barinthus]

Ok I guess it's time to dig up my old screenshots...

I just slapped quotes together, all came from white mantle NPCs in Gates of Kytra

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/5880/gatesquotespz3.th.jpg (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gatesquotespz3.jpg)

[Quintus Antonius]

Sounds to me like the Mursaat were hiding hints about Abaddon and the Flameseeker Prophecies. This also explains why the White Mantle were so gungho about invading the Shiverpeaks to chase down the Chosen.

[Barinthus]

Something not even related but may be of some interest... what Brother Bilshan says in Lion's Arch

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3302/brotherbilshaneo4.th.jpg (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brotherbilshaneo4.jpg)

[Barinthus]

This is from Gates of Kytra from a conversation between a recruit and a veteran of White Mantle army. First box and red bordered are recruit's and yellow are veteran's.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/497/gatesquotes2pr6.th.jpg (http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gatesquotes2pr6.jpg)

I interpreted quotes seen in the Gates differently. Coupled with ones above, it suggests that there are dissent brewing among the ranks of White Mantle. Of course there are devout and loyal members but there are those are not so commited. Confronted with the undead plague, those people are remind of the prophecies which suggest that they should haven't turned away from the true gods (which could be the Divine Caretakers).

But, again, after revisiting first collection of Gates quotes, it does appear that the term "divine" does refer to the Mursaat aka the Unseen Ones. I cannot recall whether if any of messages on Tablets of Janthir refer to undead? Quintus, do you know (IIRC you collected quotings from those Tablets)?

[Quintus Antonius]

No, but the Flameseeker Prophecies speak of them rising. That is one reason why Turai Ossa thought he was the one to fulfill the Prophecies, because of his experience with Joko.

[Brishadow]

If there are any tidbits regarding the Jade Brotherhood and the Am Fah that have surfaced? I did a quick scan of all the thread titles in the forums that were visible, and didn't come across any. I'm currently writing a fan fiction which heavily includes members of these two groups, among other things, and would like to keep with established lore. I have been consulting these forums for days now, lots of good info here :grin:.

thanks,
Bri

[Sir Jack]

Well...

Both groups are at war, the Emperor ensures neither ever gains the upperhand so no coup could happen, though at the same time you take out the leader of the Jade Brotherhood (Quufu), while the Am Fah are killing themselves with the Plague, which they embraced as a "Gift of the Gods".
So...I think both groups end up very weakened at the end of Factions and possibly Nika's Guild (the Obsidian Flame) could have taken over the rule over the city, which would be good.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

I wonder, has the age of Rurik and Althea ever been established? We know where Rurik was born, but when?

[Quintus Antonius]

According to the Prophecies Manuscrips, page 51, Rurik is 32.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

According to the Prophecies Manuscrips, page 51, Rurik is 32.

Before or after the searing?

And that leaves the age of Althea unknown...

[Barinthus]

I assume at the time of Searing but I will need to go back to the manuscripts.

[Quintus Antonius]

I assume it is before the Searing, as that is likely when someone would first read the Manuscripts. So he is 32 +/- 2 years, meaning somewhere between 30 and 34.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

Another question about the searing...

According to a thread (http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4675032&postcount=1)in the Elonian Lore forum


* Playable Pre-Searing Ascalon ---------- 1067 AE
* Playable Post-Searing Ascalon ---------- 1072 AE


We know that the story picks up 2 years after the searing.

We also know (by way of the movie between you leaving ascalon and entering the academy) that "that same day" a calamaty would befall Ascalon.

If this is so, I don't understand those dates...

[Quintus Antonius]

They look wrong to me. The Searing was sometime between late 1069 and 1070.

[Gmr Leon]

On the discussion of dates, this has to be the most confusing piece of in-game dialogue I've read so far.

In the year 1062 AE, the Charr invaded all three human kingdoms. The continent of Tyria was in turmoil. The scepter was lost somewhere between when the Charr attacked Ascalon and when they reached the borders of Orr. Those who knew of its whereabouts were all killed in the Cataclysm. You see when the Charr reached the Orrian capital of Arah, the entire nation exploded in a flash of blinding light. Some say it was the vengeful wrath of the old gods. These days, though, only fools believe in the powers of Grenth, Balthazar, and the rest of the false pantheon. The more rational thinkers among the White Mantle believe the Cataclysm was the work of foul black magic, dragged from the forbidden tombs deep below the streets of Arah.

I think it's just a mistake, but...It seems pretty odd that after 2 years they've yet to fix it or anything..

[Troal]

Normally I'd interpret it to mean the Charr began their invasion in 1062 and we've been fighting them for 8 years, but according to the Manuscripts they invaded in 1070. So you're obviously right - this truly is an error.

I wouldn't expect them to change it anytime soon though. Textual fixer-uppers are, as far as I can tell, low on ANet's priority list. Just take a look at General Yurukaro's regular dialogue in the Zaishen Elite. It's been over a year and there's still a terribly botched up grammar job near the end.

The 1062 date must a remnant from when the Guild Wars story was still being fleshed out. Someone must have forgotten to clue Karriya in to the official dates. :grin:

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, when one secondhand source contradicts all confirmed official sources, it can be dismissed as a typo or misspeak by the person talking.

[raziel blacknife]

Quick question, and sorry that I couldn't find it neither by using the forum search, nor on google.

Is there any lore behind the 8 skill limit, or is it just a game mechanic (like resurrection)?

The reason is I read on one of the threads suggesting a dedicated rez skill slot, the poster said something to the effect of "8 rings, 8 skills".

I didn't want to open a new thread just for a small question. Thanks!

[Nikhera]

Yes, that's the way it used to be, in the earliest betas. All skills were rings, so you'd wear them on your 8 fingers, with the exception of thumbs.

It's been suggested that Signets are rings even now, which is why it takes no energy to activate them. I forget where I've seen that short of fanfics though...

EDIT: This is the closest tangible evidence I could find:

(Taken from the Glossary section of the Prima Guild Wars Tournament Guide, enclosed a part of the Prophecies pre-order package)

"Skill: a term that encompasses all abilities, i.e. spells, enchantments, rings, signets."

[raziel blacknife]

I see, thanks Nikhera!

Was that lore ever updated? Or did they just leave it as a game mechanic?

This isn't really a big deal, I was just curious why they chose the number 8 as opposed to 7 or 9.

Thanks again for the help!

[Quintus Antonius]

A "signet" is a type of ring with a large inscribed stone. So yes, signets are rings, or at least, jewelry.

[aptaleonII]

Is there any lore behind the 8 skill limit, or is it just a game mechanic (like resurrection)?

I wouldn't take resurrection to be entirely game mechanics, actually. It is, after all, referenced by several NPCs, and the Forgotten can resurrect.

[Gmr Leon]

I just had an idea, that maybe, the Gods after defeat or the Exodus, may transcend into the Mists. Losing their physical form, and becoming pure energy. However, due to this action, they lose all ability to interact with the physical world. As in Tyria or any other worlds existent. For instance, when Kormir ascends to her position as a Goddess, we see Abaddon lose his physical form and become pure energy unwillingly. The only way this is contained is by Kormir choosing to contain the power within herself.

After this, we no longer see or hear from her at all. What if, after the Exodus, not only can the Gods no longer retain their physical form on Tyria, but they must transcend into the Mists.

The reason for doing so may be that after they witnessed what their interaction could do to Tyria, they decided they should do one final act, to hopefully end the turmoil, and leave forever to become one with the Mists. In this way they can no longer intervene and cause strife.

Think about it, they seal magic into the Bloodstones, chain their dark brother Abaddon down, and then leave. It's as though they were trying to do a few good deeds to leave the world in a state of peace before they could no longer intervene. The only intervention they may retain is simply in the form of their avatars, their messengers to allow Tyrians to know that they're still watching.

This would explain Kormir herself never just walks up to us and tells us that she needs assistance clearing up the Domain of Anguish or why Grenth and Balthazar don't clear up their domains by themselves. They can no longer intervene, but they know that if anyone were to rise to power in their domains it could be disastrous.

Grenth probably thought he had killed Dhuum and actually left him alive, which is how he can aspire to take over the Underworld. Menzies, we know, is alive and kicking although we never see him and who knows what may happen if he takes over the Fissure of Woe.

It seems to me that their power resides in the domination of their realms, and if someone conquers these realms they command the force of a God in some ways. I'm not absolutely certain and thus the reason I'm only posting this in the lounge as it is not a theory, but mainly just a thought.

[rex silverbane]

or even more extreme the gods are gone completely and just left their magic and avatars after all, it does say kormir made the ultimate sacrifice.

[Troal]

or even more extreme the gods are gone completely and just left their magic and avatars after all, it does say kormir made the ultimate sacrifice.

I'm fairly positive that sacrifice was the loss of her identity and humanity. Recall she responds to her name with "Yes. No. Kormir. And much more." What she once was has probably been pushed to the sidelines to make way for the 'Goddess of Truth.'

[Kalidri]

Yeah, I am of the impression that the gods are still around (they talk to us at the end of Gate of Madness) but they cannot do anything to directly influence our actions. They do have the power to bless us, relieve us of weariness and so on through their avatars, as a visit to any shrine will show when the world has favor. So they do have some indirect influence still, but I have yet to have an avatar tell me what to do with my ill gotten blessings.

It is, of course, very generous of the gods to assume we are doing 'their work'.

As an aside, I have always wanted to know what the avatars do with the money we give them. I can kind of believe in areas where a shrine is tended that the money goes to local charity or something...but the ones in the middle of nowhere in Tyria? Hmm.

[Troal]

As an aside, I have always wanted to know what the avatars do with the money we give them. I can kind of believe in areas where a shrine is tended that the money goes to local charity or something...but the ones in the middle of nowhere in Tyria? Hmm.

I wondered that myself. Why are we forced to pay when we're doing the work? It's extortion I tell you! Extortion!

We pay for the chance to offer our help, and they don't even bother giving us a nice buff in Nightfall. Maybe the Exodus wasn't such a bad thing, after all.

[kburt]

or even more extreme the gods are gone completely and just left their magic and avatars after all, it does say kormir made the ultimate sacrifice.

Even more extreme is that the 6 were never really gods at all but only superior beings (just as the Musaat were to the White Mantle, or the Titans were to the Charr) to most of the creatures on Tyria at the time of their arrival. And, that they didn't actually create themselves, Tyria or the Mists, but something else did???

[rex silverbane]

Even more extreme is that the 6 were never really gods at all but only superior beings (just as the Musaat were to the White Mantle, or the Titans were to the Charr) to most of the creatures on Tyria at the time of their arrival. And, that they didn't actually create themselves, Tyria or the Mists, but something else did???

or EVEN MORE extreme there were never any gods at all and it was all our imagination :laugh:

[Quintus Antonius]

or EVEN MORE extreme there were never any gods at all and it was all our imagination :laugh:

That's obviously not true, since we fought Abaddon and watch Kormir ascend.

[rex silverbane]

its called a joke quintus, though i think kburt may be onto something with the just supirior beings idea

[Amantis]

Ok I can honestly say i've searched the lore forum extensively. My question is: Is there any specific place to sign up for TAoS? Is it still around? And is there an in-game member or leader I can contact? Also My Final Question is, is TAoS an actual guild like "Tyrian Academy of Science [TAoS]" that I can join?
Thank you to whoever takes the time to answer me :]

[Konig Des Todes]

Time to bring back the never-ending Lore Lounge.

Recently, the Q&A Video from the PAX was put on the GW website. (link (http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/pax2008/discussionpanel.php)).

In the video, a question was asked regarding the Statue of Glint (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Statue_of_Glint) in the center of Salt Flats. The response towards the question sounds like there are plans about it in the future.

So, the purpose of this post (and bringing back the "no-topic" thread of the Lore Forum) is, for the moment, post speculations of what they might do with this statue.

I have two thoughts:
1. This statue was made during the time of the Ancient Dragons (or shortly after their hibernation) after one of them.

Or

2. This statue, will be, in fact, a general of one of the Desert, or Undead, Dragon.

Both theories have this conclusion:

The True Gods found this statue, and, having knowledge of the Ancient Dragons, modeled Glint after this statue.



Other's thoughts?

[Gmr Leon]

I think Glint will completely seal herself away, and we'll have to find it to gain communication with her. Alongside a trip to Droknar's Forge perhaps, to establish a base of operations there for the player, and Glint will resume communications there providing quests, etc.

[Erasculio]

I think Glint will completely seal herself away
I think she already has. Her lair is hidden (the whole thing about being inside a grain of sand in the middle of the desert), and we only get access to her after our Ascension, which was an one time thing for the defeat of the Mursaat. Now that ascension is no longer necessary nor has any purpose in Tyria, I think access to the Dragon's Lair has been completely shut down.

Erasculio

[Konig Des Todes]

Ascension still has a purpose. Iirc, Ascension was there not to fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies, but to gain the favor of the gods (and be more likely to end up in the Hall of Heroes upon death), or something of the like.

I believe Turai Ossa in Amnoon Oasis *sadly just called Ghostly Hero like Lord Valodor, Commander Joziah, and General Mendoza* talks about why people wish to Ascend.

[Sir Jack]

Technically speaking, from a timeline point of view, everything happens around us and everything is centered around us.
The 3 Ascension Trials were fullfilled, and we -the player- have Ascended. In that regard, no one else except the player and his band of merry men ascended at that point of time and would be written in history as "The Hero who saved Tyria ascended in <year>".
While it's still possible to ascend and all that in the game, in each player's timeline, it's purpose is over and no one would ascend after them anymore.

[Karuro]

The tales of Ascension was already a popular topic before Ossa's time.
You'd think that the news that a merry band of adventurers managed to achieve Ascension would make other people attempt to do the trials as well in "our" timeline.

Perhaps in GW2 the heirs of the Heroes (Players) will have to walk in the footsteps of their ancestors and gain Ascension as well, for whatever task lies ahead.

Game mechanic or not, Ascension does give the character certain privileges, such as swapping second profession and the unlocking of the 'Gift of True Sight'.

[Konig Des Todes]

The three trials that we went through would no longer be there, that is, exactly how we went through them. The next group of people would have to do it from scratch, no Ghostly Hero help *as it seems that Turai Ossa Ascended with the heroes*.

Like you, I was one of the Chosen. But I passed from this world before I could rise to Ascension. The tests of Ascension can only be performed by mortals. But I can guide you through them, and when the way opens for you, it can also open for me.

Ascension would still be doable, but for the next group, it will be harder because, as I said, they wouldn't have ghostly help (supposedly).

Side Note: I really with someone would go through the Ghostly Hero NPCs in the Crystal Desert and put their real names (Turai Ossa, Lord Victo, Lord Valodor, Commander Joziah, General Mendoza, etc. etc.) in order to avoid confusion thinking that they are all the same.

[Erasculio]

Ascension still has a purpose. Iirc, Ascension was there not to fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies, but to gain the favor of the gods (and be more likely to end up in the Hall of Heroes upon death), or something of the like.

Even if random people can ascend, though (and I doubt anyone had done so before; the feeling I have is that since the time of the Elonians no one had managed to do it), going to Glint's lair after the ascension is not necessary. We went there (or rather, we were summoned there) because the dragon wanted to guide us about the Flameseeker Prophecies; now that her pet prophecy has been fullfilled, I don't think Glint would allow random people (ascended or not) to find, much less enter, her lair.

Erasculio

[Karuro]

Unless you manage to threaten a Forgotten to get you in (Though I think they'd rather die), you're on a dead end Booka.

[Konig Des Todes]

Even if random people can ascend, though (and I doubt anyone had done so before; the feeling I have is that since the time of the Elonians no one had managed to do it), going to Glint's lair after the ascension is not necessary. We went there (or rather, we were summoned there) because the dragon wanted to guide us about the Flameseeker Prophecies; now that her pet prophecy has been fullfilled, I don't think Glint would allow random people (ascended or not) to find, much less enter, her lair. For her lair, yes, but for Ascension, no. There are 2 past groups before us who attempted to Ascend, the Margonites and the Elonians (well, the Margonites were supposedly attempted but now knowing of the Margonite's origins, it's rather hard to tell).

Unless you manage to threaten a Forgotten to get you in (Though I think they'd rather die), you're on a dead end Booka. I don't get what you mean by this Karuro. Is this towards Glint's lair, or towards Ascension. If towards Glint's lair, you would be correct, but for Ascension, you wouldn't need to threaten a Forgotten to get in. In fact, as the Forgotten are servants of the True Gods, and mostly wiped out after Prophecies - on Tyria that is - threatening them would not only be hard to do, but would also prevent Ascension more then help it.

[Karuro]

It was about Glint's Lair.

To Ascend you have to do the trials to access Augury Rock, to defeat the doppleganger. Then the hallway after it basically leads you to the Dragon's Lair outpost. Most likely a teleport dial or something.

(How the Vision crystal resets and a new enemy Ghostly Hero ends up in Dunes of Despair, I don't know. On that topic, one trial is caused by the Elonians themselves. Since they split up the Vision crystal and each took a part with them.)

Then you stand there puzzled, because you don't have the knowledge to open the crystal-portals to enter Glint's Lair. Which only the Forgotten (And Glint?) know, as far as we know.

Then again, you wouldn't need to speak to Glint anyways if you only came to Ascend. Find your way out and take a boat or mountain trip. The Zaishen know of a way at least, unless they all Ascended and are now stuck in the outpost and lost in the desert.

[Konig Des Todes]

For the vision crystal, unless stated so *been a while since I did that mission*, I don't think it was ever "split" but just simply never put together by the Elonians. It would just "reset" and the new "Enemy Ghostly Hero" would be the Ghostly Hero we help in Dunes of Despair.

For the Zaishen, I think they got to Tombs of the Primeval Kings via the portal *in through the Battle Isles, out through the Tombs*.

The Sunspears probably got the Tombs the same way the Primeval Kings did, but that'd be a long walk *as technically, people wouldn't be limited to how we are, they'd be able to climb mountains and whatnot*.

[Karuro]

I always had the impression the Ghostly Hero through all trials was well... Turai. Not generic ghostly-hero #7 :S

I'll second the "give them bloody names" statement.

[Konig Des Todes]

Yeah, the as far as I can tell, there are numerous Ghostly Heroes. Turai (seen in Amnoon, Tombs, and HA battles), the three in Augury Rock mission (that is the only place where they have their real names) who are also in their respective missions, and then various buried monarchs in the HA battles (such as Lord Victo).

[Kalidri]

Just a little note from me. I reserve the right to delete posts that go off topic or are simply a comment on how old a thread is, or "Hi, I am here". Keep in mind that thread necromancy in the Lore Forum is perfectly appropriate and not a big deal at all. Lore threads are just as pertinent today as they were when authored. If someone has an idea on additional evidence or wants to comment on something, that's perfectly okay.

Also, if you see inappropriate off topic spamming, please feel free to hit the report button.

Cheers!

Kali

[Journeyman Thorin]

Hello, my first post here. Wasn´t sure where exactly should this go to.
I was running around the seaside in Gates of Kryta mission and there were a lot of rocks. I didn´t really give them much attention at first because, well, usually people don´t stare at every rock they encounter. But then I randomly stumbled upon THIS (http://www.xfire.com/screenshots/bluten/ss_file-8e7af091b9076125548d539760d20e64b993b208.jpg)
That just freaked me out and I did quite much nothing than stared that for a while (middle of the night, didn´t really think too much at that time) Then I realized I could take screenshots and go asking around if anyone knew what on earth had I found. Maybe it´s just my mind playing tricks on me but that looks like a big claw.

[Konig Des Todes]

I think that's just rocks... I don't see a claw-like shape at all...

Also, welcome.

[TheKall]

yo, i guess this if off topic, but is this 1st GW2 concept (away from charr and all long-known ones), or i missed something?

http://www.mmocalendar.com/images/may.jpg

[Konig Des Todes]

Noticing the post got moved. Would like to say, concept art is not lore.

And I think there are many threads on it already, at least there were many made on Guru. It's called "Hub of Time" I believe and is Utopia/EN concept art. Would be nice to show up in GW2 though, but it's as new as the concept art for the Ancient Dragons.

[Kalidri]

Yep, there's been a post in fan art and a post in CDF on this too. THis is the lounge though, so it's fine :)

[Konig Des Todes]

Didn't mean it was ok to be moved here, was just saying it got discussed and isn't lore. >.>

I can see confusion though.

[Sun Stargazer]

The concept art has been confirmed by Regina to have belonged to Utopia before it got scrapped.

[Amantis]

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h198/Amantis0/gw263.jpg



Who are the 4 back to back figures behind him and do we know if the forgotten created him? Out of what? Does he have a soul?

[Gmr Leon]

It's never really been determined if he was "made", but the back to back figures appear to be Lyssa, if you compare those depictions to her statue they show a striking, if not exact, resemblance.

[Amantis]

One more question i'll check up on after I sleep. Why does Lord Jadoth serve Mallyx? I mean Jadoth was the FIRST Margonite right?

[Karuro]

Being the First doesn't always mean you're the strongest.

[aptaleonII]

Aye, Jadoth was the first, and is a master tactician...

...but Mallyx was Abaddon's own second-in-command, so the position of power moved to him. Plus, he is by far the strongest.

[Konig Des Todes]

I think the doppleganger was made by the gods as a test for ascension - not the forgotten. I presume there are only two dopplegangers, which cannot "truly" die. That is, it would be similar to a lich in that when it is killed, it is brought back.

I say this because Ascension happens several times, from 5 to infinity. The very minimal amount of people who ascend are Devona, Mhenlo, Aiden, Cynn, and Eve - that is, if the heroes, in a lore sense, is in fact those five and not our characters (which to me sound much more reasonable as a million plus cannot be the heroes and with Simeon being there to record the heroes' return in Prophecies, and just about every figure of importance in Cantha in Factions, and all the Hero heroes in Nightfall (and forgotten), the hero cannot logically go unknown.

And seeing for for every profession the Doppleganger looks exactly the same, with even the same weapons, it would be a logical deduction to say there are only two - a male and a female "copy" - and the only part of it that is a true doppleganger is the ability to copy the skills of the one who is trying to ascend (possibly done by the gaze of the god enchantment - as you are both under that enchantment).

In short, of my wall of text, the gods created the doppleganger, there are two undying dopplegangers, it is a doppleganger only through copying skills which is done by the enchantment that the relic puts on you.

[Fantym of the Opera]

Is it possible that human or humanoid intelligence knew of the ancient dragons before they hit the hay? I don't know if this has been discussed before, so I'm reluctant to make a new thread devoted to the topic.

Just a few minutes ago I found what looks to be a ceremonial place--now used by the Asura for other purposes I'm unsure of--and it revealed to me some curious imagery:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/dumbpilot101/gw178.jpg

Due to the stretch and distortion between the images, I'm going to discount the possibility of a ceremonial shrine to multiple dragons (or a double-headed dragon). But you can see what appears to be a dragon with a human/humanoid figure wearing a headdress sitting by it.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/dumbpilot101/gw176.jpg

You can see more of this design on a smaller structure next to it, but have found absolutely nothing at Rata Sum.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/dumbpilot101/gw175.jpg

Given that the architecture of Rata Sum appears to be the very same architecture that we see at the alleged shrine in Alcazia Tangle, I can say that it is related.

Is this related to the Ancient Dragons, and could Rata Sum be nearing their age? Furthermore, what beings are these that would look so highly upon these dragon-like creatures?

[Konig Des Todes]

The Tarnished Coast seems to hold the most remnants of Utopia. I'd say that the "dragon" you see is actually a large lizard that was planned for Utopia or Utopian Lore. It could possibly have been the third common day dragon as well.

The markings also look similar to Aztec/Mayan/Incan as well, which is what Utopia seemed to be based off of primarily (Native N/S Americans).

The place you found is used as a lab by the Asuran, you go there in the Asuran Mission Chain to find the lab wrecked by Destroyers.

Also, seeing how the Movement of the World specifically states that the Ancient Dragons went into hibernation before recorded history, I'd say it is improbably, if not impossible, that anything in modern day Tyria knew of the Ancient Dragons.

[Fantym of the Opera]

I thought of these things being remnants of Utopia, but the entirety of Rata Sum, not to mention the Tarnished Coast structures and inhabitants look and sound Native S. American.

Given that, I couldn't just write it off. I'll have to do some exploring later to see if there is anything else of interest.

[Jair of the Forest]

Well, I clearly see those "large lizards" on the shrine vomiting fire, so I doubt we could call them anything else than Dragons.

[La Jaffa]

it can be that they Picture out the Serpents (Forgotten).

[Jair of the Forest]

it can be that they Picture out the Serpents (Forgotten).

But than again, they don't spit out flames, do they?

[Karuro]

But than again, they don't spit out flames, do they?
They spit rocks instead :rolleyes:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Forgotten_Arcanist

[Fantym of the Opera]

It does look like it's vomiting fire, but it may very well be sticking his stylized tongue out and roaring, with the >>> design being an illustrated roar.

We can see that the figure beside the dragon is submissive, bowing, and even cowering, so they did think highly of the creature. Aside from its missing limbs, it does look vaguely like the Forgotten, but limbs aren't something to cast aside. Especially not from a fearful race that obviously put a great deal of effort into its art and architecture.

[Konig Des Todes]

I don't see how fire goes downward. I'd say it's a liquid of some form. Possibly saliva. Closest to fire would be lava.

And Fantym, I see two figures. One that looks fainted the other that is holding the fainted figure.

Possible depiction of human sacrifice? (the holding figure looks like an arm is at the fainted figure's chest)

The depiction does look more like Forgotten then a dragon to me. And all creatures drool. Perhaps a renegade Forgotten worshiped as a deity?

[Fantym of the Opera]

I don't see the second figure, I'll do a comparative drawing to more clearly illustrate what I see, though.

[edit] Forgive my crude sketching, I'm too lazy to do better at the moment.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/dumbpilot101/humanoid.png

The Forgotten Ones were brought to Tyria by the Gods of Tyria around the year 1769 BE to assist the dragon prophet Glint. They were to be the custodians, who instructed and guided other races in the formative period of the history of Tyria and maintained balance between all races. They were the keepers of knowledge and the teachers of all things.

If it is a Forgotten, where are its four arms? One would think that the arms would play a more prominent role in the image we see here, rather than saliva or fire or whatever it is. While salivation might be fitting of a rogue, even mad, Forgotten, the lack of its most prominent features is enough to convince me that it is not one of Tyria's ancient custodians.

[Gmr Leon]

I agree, alongside its lack of wings. Even the depictions seen in Ascalon show them with wings, which, while they are just vestigial flaps of skin, they are still a prominent characteristic of the Forgotten.

If it had to be anything, I would propose a Krait. They're native to the area, they're serpentine, and certain forms of them look like dragons.

Ex:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/7/77/Krait_Arcanoss.jpg

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/4/44/Krait_Devouss.jpg

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/2/20/Krait_Neoss.jpg

I have to say though, this is a bit interesting, look below the neck, it looks like an amulet of some sort.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/d/dd/Krait_Necross.jpg

[Konig Des Todes]

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj230/Azazel_90/gw175.jpg These are the two figures I see. The one in white seems to have an evil-looking face while holding the other figure. Where you have the eyes looking at the dragon, I see the eyes looking evilly at the other figure.

The red seems to be wearing a headress and is fainting. Also, one arm looks limp and going backwards.


Also, Krait do seem more reasonable, and I did forget about that for a minute.

[Sir Jack]

These are the two figures I see. The one in white seems to have an evil-looking face while holding the other figure. Where you have the eyes looking at the dragon, I see the eyes looking evilly at the other figure.

The red seems to be wearing a headress and is fainting. Also, one arm looks limp and going backwards.


Also, Krait do seem more reasonable, and I did forget about that for a minute.

Yeah, I don't see that in that picture, looks more like what Fantym drew to me. A "man" with a huge headpiece turned away in fear/devotion to this "Dragon".
Also, the problem with Krait is the same as the problem with the Forgotten, the lack of Wings depicted. Furthermore, the "Dragon" is shown to be much larger than the human, Krait aren't that big.

Another aspect is the eye, which seems to be looking rather "evil" and is put in a different color than the rest of the drawing.

Well, any chance it could have been a GL? It wouldn't be uncommon for a story to feature a forgotten clan worshipping a creature that was assumed to be instict.


On a side note, these drawings really screw up the whole Asuran architecture and all. While the description of Rata Sum reads the Asura erected it in a few days, it's incoherent with other remains being found elsewhere. What's probably the biggest issue is that these drawings are also found in the Central Transfer Chamber, which we know is built by the Asura.
This would mean the "human" in the picture is really an Asura and the "Dragon" is a representation of the Great Destroyer. However, these images are there when we enter the CTC. I highly doubt the Asura would have time to paint some highly stylish picture when fleeing for their lives as they're forced to abandon their main hub.
This could mean that the image really depicts a part of ancient Asuran history. If the buildings like Rata Sum and others were originally Asuran architecture, that could mean that at some point they were forced to live underground due to the threat of this "Dragon". Which would then be a creature found across the globe for them to be going underground and staying there, instead of surfacing somewhere else. Which would mean it is indeed a GL, because it's the only creature we know that's huge and of which there are traces around the world. Which would also mean the Asuran race and culture is over 10,000 years old.

[Konig Des Todes]

Idea: The "dragon" is not the Great Destroyer, but Primordus. What is coming out of the mouth is the magic that Primordus "practically bleeds."