PvE vs PvP; The Flaming Mixture

[Akirai Annuvil]

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q122/Akirai1989/Flaming_cocktails.jpg

lookie an intro with a picture!


Threads about features are fun -- thinking up small mechanics, large monsters, new skills. Suggesting them and having them critiqued, currently the main point of these forums.
Occasionally however bigger topics get posted, bigger topics discussing broader themes and directions. Topics like this one, designed to discuss the relative importance of PvE and PvP, and how they should interact in the new game.

PvE and PvP; how and where do you think they should mingle?

Personally, I like there to be some form of integration. The proposed PvPvE area seems like abit of a bland mixture of the two, from what information has been released it's what other MMOs call a PvP server. The common PvE elements + some PKing, possibly with some added incentive to PK and a flat level shared by most present.
I'm actually against a strict divide between PvE and PvP. Though the division of consumables is ok (I'd prefer a consumable-less PvE but they're not too much of an annoyance) I find the current division of skills to be incredibly annoying and don't see the point. Ive been both an exclusively PvP and exclusively PvE player, as well as mixed and from no point of view did the skill balances affect me negatively. Majorly? Yes, but that's a given with an online, evolving game -- and not a negative quality by any means.
Furthermore, a trend behind GW2 (and gaming in general) is to make it as accessible as possible. Seperating skills and making them completely different depending on the arena you're in does not increase accessibility.
Instead I'd use the emergent skill use mechanic they've discussed in previous interviews, where it's dependant on your actions, your opponent's actions and your surroundings what the skill's actual effect is. Create unique surroundings or enemy behaviour (flying enemies maybe) to create unique effects for the skills without actually creating new skills. If it turns out as balanceable, the effects can be used in new PvP arena's for example.

[Siriusbg]

would hate if it gonna be more servers where you gonna lock your self to one =/

[Tro]

Dont Worry

its already stated that the PvP and PvE will be separated like it is in GW now.

the Mist is where the PvP will take place. it will be a World PvP environment with Instanced PvP aswell

it will be like 2 diferent games in 1

1 game is full PvP

other game is full PvE

kinda like it is now, but with World PvE and World PvP added

seems cool

[shawn]

its already stated that the PvP and PvE will be separated like it is in GW now.
.....

..PvP and PvE aren't separated in Guild Wars 1.

[Tro]

.....

..PvP and PvE aren't separated in Guild Wars 1.

ok:sealed:

[captain lucky]

The only 2 races who I see this happening to are Charr and the Humans however I find it highly unlikely that they will add PVPVE to the game. World PVP however sounds like PVPVE as people can drop in and out at anytime and games can go on for a long time.

[Forgotten Legend]

let's make a distinction here...

PvP and PvE *areas* are seperated... so there is no PKing in PvE zones.

in other MMO's there is PKing allowed in PvE zones. in GW2. PKing will *only* be allowed in PvP zones, like it is in GW1 (except on a grander, more PvE styled zone, *or* in organized PvP *instances*, like GvG and the tournament in the Hall of Heroes)

the disussion concerning how PvP and PvE affect each other is a different one, and just because they affect each other, does not mean that PKing is allowed in PvE zones, like in WoW.

[Tro]

let's make a distinction here...

PvP and PvE *areas* are seperated... so there is no PKing in PvE zones.

in other MMO's there is PKing allowed in PvE zones. in GW2. PKing will *only* be allowed in PvP zones, like it is in GW1 (except on a grander, more PvE styled zone, *or* in organized PvP *instances*, like GvG and the tournament in the Hall of Heroes)

the disussion concerning how PvP and PvE affect each other is a different one, and just because they affect each other, does not mean that PKing is allowed in PvE zones, like in WoW.

I still want Random area effects to make large Conflict on the battle field.

Similar to the final mission of Dynasty Warrior game on PSP

have Flying Monsters drop Flaming Bombs to blow the Crap out of people on the field
:largeevil:

[shawn]

That sounds incredibly gimmicky. Personally, I'd like my pvp matches to not be determined by luck.

[Tro]

was talking bout the World PvP in the Mist

[shawn]

So was I.

[Tro]

Oh yeah,,,
something need to be done to Help the faction with the Lower Population, in
World PvP.

cause having a imbalanced Faction Ratio would screw over world PvP big time.

I would suggest having 3 Factions, to solve this problem.

EDIT:
almost forgot.
Don't allow Cross Faction communication in the Mist and PvP zones. cause they could really F up a good World PvP tactics Plan. I hate that when low lvls give away our attack plan in World PvP.

[The Sins We Die By]

Given that we know nothing about it atm, I'll wait till I make a suggestion on their world PvP system. I would imagine they'd have something simple though, such as adding in an npc to attempt to balance things out, but who knows atm.

[the bomb]

I would say you should have pve, pvpve, pvp int the game spliting up both groups

[The Harlequin]

1 game is full PvP

other game is full PvE

kinda like it is now, but with World PvE and World PvP added
It's for the best, really. Or, dare I say, the best of both worlds?

[raspberry jam]

Not that anyone in this thread actually talks about the topic outlined in the opening post, but I fully agree with and support Akirai's thoughts.

[sorudo]

they did say that you're not alone in the instant world you're in, so even when you go to the ascalon settlement, you still have a chance of seeing other ppl.
i just hope that doesn't mean i get 20x a day the dual message before me, or atleast be able to disable any dual invites.

[kyln]

I for one want there to be a distinct separation between the two. I incredibly dislike the constant changes due to PvP balance issues.

However, I understand the desire for there to be some connection.

What if there were a small set of core skills, smaller than the current core skills, that were used in both. They would be extremely well balanced.
After those would be "advanced skills" which are separated into two groups, PvP and PvE. They can thus be regularly balanced for their mode of play's needs (perhaps a limit of 3 in a bar).
"Elite skills" would function much as they do now with one per bar, but again, due to their higher power level by design, they would be PvP and PvE separate to allow balance in each arena without affecting the other.

With a system like this, there would be a set of well balanced skills that are shared by both, but are almost never touched for balance concerns. Instead, when problems arise in either arena, the conflict is handled by altering an "advanced skill" or and "elite skill". Maintaining the core balance of the game while simultaneously making it easier to handle specific issues in either mode of play would become easier I think in such a situation. You would have less players feeling like a mode of play they are completely uninterested in is negatively affecting their play.

(Yes.... I realize that my suggestion has some relationship to MTG designations. I'm fine with that. Anet has mentioned it being a force in the design of GW1.)

[raspberry jam]

The main issue I have with two different skill sets, one for PvE, one for PvP, is that you basically get two games, not one.

[Zsig]

What if you for example like to play both styles? You would need to learn and memorize all skills twice? No, make them equal.

If some skill doesn't work as good in PvE as it does in PvE, just make it more "appealing" by giving it some "fluffy" mechanics, for example, Light of Deldrimor deals AoE damage AND reveals hidden stuff, i know it's a PvE skill, i know it's not a GW2 skill, but let's say the AoE damage is the overall usefulness of the skill and it works well in PvP but for PvE it'd be too weak, thus the added effect.

On the other hand, since someone mentioned MTG, one could simply temporarily "restrict" or "ban" a given set of skills for the current "season" (or arena or tournament etc). Just like some skills are not allowed in the early Ascalon arenas and such. Then, when the "season" is over, they can take a better look at what makes that skill that troublesome and fix it for the next "season". This could also be an interesting tool to change the meta for a "season".
Example:
This month's Tournment will deal with "..." and "..." so, X kind of playing will be discouraged, while Y will be encouraged.
The following skills will be temporarily restricted in GvG for this month:
[List]

On the following months, old restricted skills are back in, and others are removed. In this way, if handled properly, you can deal with OP skills and builds without even changing it at all.

[Chris Le Noir]

Please lets not go the pvp / pve skills way again. We all know how that ended up. I dont mind PK ing but im not sure how allowing it everywhere would lead to a closer connection between pve and pvp. The world battle thing sounded like its AB on steroids or raids like in wow.

[kyln]

What if you for example like to play both styles? You would need to learn and memorize all skills twice?

With balance changes you already have to constantly relearn and rememorize skills.

There is also the issue that some skills are already better suited for PvP or PvE in GW1. If you are mainly a PvEr, than you most likely don't spend a lot of time on learning the finer points of e-denial. It just isn't as effective as it is in PvP. On the same note, a whole lot of skills, such as many AoE, work far better against AI foes than against human ones. Skills already have a disproportionate amount of time spent on them as far as learning and memorizing goes.

Also, I did mention in my scenario that there would be core skills, the basics, which would have to constitute a minimum of half of a persons 8 skill bar. This would certainly lead to an understanding of the most balanced skills for PvE and PvP. Leave the more conditional and exotic skills -also imo the ones most likely to be abusable- in two separate categories and balance the daylights out of those all you want for there mode of play.

As far as the skill banning, or restricting suggestion, it has been made before. Mind, I do like it, but I am trying to remember why others were opposed to it.............. ( as a general rule, MTG tries to change cards (errata) as rarely as possible. They simply remove OP skills from competitive play through restrictions or occasionally banning from certain modes of play).

What Ursan and Cons made clear -to me at least- is that there is a big split in the PvE community. I would describe this split as the competitive vs. the casual. I think most people would agree that PvP is by nature a competitive mode of play. Given that, I am not sure how to balance the competitive vs the casual in PvE. Many love the PvE skills and cons, many despise them. How do you find a balance between the two?......

I did mention in a thread (cons i think), and is related to the restricted skill notion, that it would be nice if the leader of a group could pull up a window in which customized limitations could be placed on skills or items usable for the instance in which the group is going. Group members would have access to this window and accept it exit town, or leave the group and find another. Customized difficulty settings for the win!

[Wuzzman]

Pve skills was by design to be the real broken stuff that makes sure you can allow you to farm for gold, faction, whatever, even if the sky is falling. The issue becomes, pve skills become auto-includes for anyone that decides to pug. Pve'ers treasure variety and the right to run 8 good/crap skills if they felt like it, being told what to put on their bar is a no no. Then again, my assumption is that most players don't care. Either they hero/hench or figure get over it and bring the 3 auto-includes and bring 5 of whatever they want.