Please Change the Melee Attack system in GW2

[Tro]

please

remove the Attack Queuing on Melee Attacks. make the Swings all Instant and not all After Effects.

Iam not suggesting adding a Swing Timer or anything like that. but at lease remove the Queuing when I use a Melee Attack.

skill queuing was great when every game was unresponsive, but it just isnt acceptable anymore. Things need to happen when you tell it to happen, not at some future time. LOTRO is the same way. You can queue skills, but everything seems a little delayed. There isnt enough feedback either.

In DAOC queueing always felt wrong but we didnt know any better. I tried to go back and just couldnt stand it. You use skill 1 + skill 2, then when skill 2 is going you use skill 3, and so on. It makes combat always 1 step behind you. When you push 3, 2 is starting. Its just not engaging.:girly::wave::sunny::fortuneteller:

[Xycury]

so button mashing?

if I press 12345678, then I do massive damage? At the same time?

.... yeah....

[Tro]

so button mashing?

if I press 12345678, then I do massive damage? At the same time?

.... yeah....


warrior attacks require adrenalin to build up.

[Ryuujinx]

So you press 1-3 and do 3 skills? At once?

Seems silly to me.

[MoonUnit]

So you press 1-3 and do 3 skills? At once?

Seems silly to me.

12345 HEADSHOT!

Sounds rather stupid to me.

[Gmr Leon]

In the context of a Warrior it sounds like he'd just end up confused or wildly swinging his sword without dealing much damage. The pauses make sense, you finish one swing, you begin another. To do them at the same time would just be..well, you'd need to have two swords and be rather ambidextrous.

[Skyy High]

warrior attacks require adrenalin to build up.
And instead of releasing those attacks in the span of, oh, the half second they're spread over now, you suggest that warriors should be able to release their adrenaline spikes instantaneously? No. You don't like how warriors "feel" in GW, tough; queuing up attack skills so they don't all fire off at once is a necessary part of balance, both in GW and in GW2. If attack skills all fired off at once, the warrior as a class would have to be gimped damage-wise, because nothing can be allowed to unleash massive quantities of damage, alone, instantaneously. That may be some other game's version of a warrior - a damage-poor, tanking, mash-buttons-to-occasionally-deal-more-damage class - but it's completely removed from what the class means in GW. There are few instant-activation skills in this game for a reason.

[Fluffball]

Terrible idea!

[Tro]

In the context of a Warrior it sounds like he'd just end up confused or wildly swinging his sword without dealing much damage. The pauses make sense, you finish one swing, you begin another. To do them at the same time would just be..well, you'd need to have two swords and be rather ambidextrous.

thats was GCD are for

[Akirai Annuvil]

Global cool down is terrible.

Tro go play WoW. Seriously.

[Aiiane]

thats was GCD are for

So what you're saying, is that instead of having a server-side GCD (the "queueing") and being able to play regardless of lag...


Instead, there should be a client-side GCD, which has exactly the same delays ("I can't attack yet, because this timer is still going"), but then throws player lag into the equation because of the round-trip from server finishing an attack, to the player seeing that, hitting another attack, to the server receiving the request for the next action?



Sorry, but I don't see any merit at all in your suggestion. If anything, it seems like a regression.

[Supreme Commander]

"I'm using Shock Eviscerate Executioner's Strike Body Blow!"

pew pew

[Tro]

So what you're saying, is that instead of having a server-side GCD (the "queueing") and being able to play regardless of lag...


Instead, there should be a client-side GCD, which has exactly the same delays ("I can't attack yet, because this timer is still going"), but then throws player lag into the equation because of the round-trip from server finishing an attack, to the player seeing that, hitting another attack, to the server receiving the request for the next action?



Sorry, but I don't see any merit at all in your suggestion. If anything, it seems like a regression.


a Delay in using spells is the problem.

not the delay after the spell is used.

when I want to activate a Interup/ Knockdown, I dont want to wait 1 sec for it to go off on my next Auto Swing. I want it to go off as soon as I hit the button.

[shawn]

Uhh, it does go off damn near immediately. Get a better internet connection.
Or use an IAS skill like frenzy.

Edit: Furthermore, interrupts have a cast time, which means they stop your auto attack and activate - in most cases - in 1/4 of a second. ie, [[Distracting Strike], [[Distracting Blow]. (And yes, the skills say 1/2s, but they activate in 1/4. Same with [[Savage Shot] and [[Distracting Shot].)

[Tro]

Uhh, it does go off damn near immediately. Get a better internet connection.
Or use an IAS skill like frenzy.

Edit: Furthermore, interrupts have a cast time, which means they stop your auto attack and activate - in most cases - in 1/4 of a second. ie, [[Distracting Strike], [[Distracting Blow]. (And yes, the skills say 1/2s, but they activate in 1/4. Same with [[Savage Shot] and [[Distracting Shot].)
but all Strikes in GW are after effects.

[shawn]

....What??

[raspberry jam]

but all Strikes in GW are after effects.No they are not. They are on "next melee", just like Heroic Strike. Now stop being stupid.

[Tro]

....What??

all the Stikes Queue up before going off. thats because they all (the non cast Strikes iam talking bout) go off on Auto Swing. none of them are completely instant. to test this


wait for auto swing to go off, them as soon as swing is done,
use your strike, and watch, as it queue up for the next swing

[shawn]

So after Googling what the hell 'Heroic Strike' was, I guess it's fitting to say 'go back to WoW?'
I'm not wasting my time testing anything atm, I'm on my laptop and it doesn't run gw. However, you're on about the strikes, and I know both Distracting and Disrupting go off in 1/4s from when you hit them, no matter where you are in your auto attack.

edit: Or are you talking about attacks? Like just a normal axe attack such as Eviscerate or Body Blow?
If so, STOP USING WOW TERMINOLOGY IN GUILD WARS. IT'S ****ING CONFUSING.

[Tro]

No they are not. They are on "next melee", just like Heroic Strike. Now stop being stupid.

Heroic Strike works this way aswell. but not all strikes in WoW function this way

[shawn]

Guild Wars IS NOT World Of Warcraft
Guild Wars IS NOT World Of Warcraft
Guild Wars IS NOT World Of Warcraft
Guild Wars IS NOT World Of Warcraft

If you want to play WoW, go play WoW. This is getting seriously annoying.

[Tro]

Guild Wars IS NOT World Of Warcraft
Guild Wars IS NOT World Of Warcraft
Guild Wars IS NOT World Of Warcraft
Guild Wars IS NOT World Of Warcraft

If you want to play WoW, go play WoW. This is getting seriously annoying.

I said nothing about World of Warcraft. iam talking about the Strikes in GW not being responsive. somebody else posted something about Heroic Strike. that was just a example of another spell that function in a similar matter

[noobforsure]

I said nothing about World of Warcraft. iam talking about the Strikes in GW not being responsive.

What's your definition of responsive, now?

[Tro]

What's your definition of responsive, now?

Instant Attacks,
non Queue Strikes


still not comprehending?

[raspberry jam]

I said nothing about World of Warcraft. iam talking about the Strikes in GW not being responsive. somebody else posted something about Heroic Strike. that was just a example of another spell that function in a similar matterThe attack skills in GW are very responsive. They just don't work like they do in WoW. Instead they ask of you to think about what you are doing.

[shawn]

Instant Attacks,
non Queue Strikes
Oh dear god, they go off in .66 of a second instead of instantly, HOW DO YOU COPE?! And interrupts at .25s, I can totally see how you can't interrupt 1 second casts with that.

[noobforsure]

I'm just restating what's been said, but maybe Tro will be able to understand.

Oh dear god, they go off in .66 of a second instead of instantly, HOW DO YOU COPE?! And interrupts at .25s, I can totally see how you can't interrupt 1 second casts with that.

I don't think he understands Guild Wars' melee attack mechanics.
Iam not suggesting adding a Swing Timer or anything like that. but at lease remove the Queuing when I use a Melee Attack.

There already are swing timers in Guild Wars. There just aren't addons like Quartz to help display them. Daggers are 1.25(ignoring double strike chance), sword/axe 1.33, hammer/scythe 1.75, Spear 1.5, etc. Increased attack speed(IAS) skills just make the swing timer faster. Remember a Rogue's Slice and Dice and its 25 or 30% melee haste? Think of Frenzy with its 33% increased attack speed as 33% melee haste.

"Queueing up" an attack is the same as WoW's "on next melee". Skills with listed activation times(1/2 or 1 sec on most attack skills) are about as close as you get in GW to "instant", like Mortal Strike, Pummel, Shield Bash, Kick, etc. If you want a /stopcast, in the keybindings part of the Guild Wars options look for "Cancel action". It's about equivalent, but better.

Please correct me if I was wrong on anything.

Hope that's more clear, and...

...I played WoW for a year. Don't shoot me. D:

[Skyy High]

If you time your attack skill to be immediately after your last auto-attack, you will see zero delay, and you will hit with your attack skill exactly when you would have hit with your next auto-attack. If you chain attack skills, they will each hit on the same "rhythm" that your auto-attacks would have hit. If you think of these as "unresponsive", I have to question why you think warriors should be able to attack faster than they are able to swing their weapon.

[Aiiane]

Look. WoW allows you to use instant attacks while your swing timer is going, and it doesn't reset the swing timer. That's probably what Tro wants - to be able to use instants without resetting the attack timer.

That said, to Tro: such works for WoW because it's a PvE-designed system with only afterthoughts thrown to PvP. GW is a PvP-designed system also used for PvE. Being able to have instant attacks not reset the swing timer would make it nearly impossible to balance physical damage dealers against casters, who don't have an "swing timer" because they don't use their weapons as their primary damage source.


In short, sorry, but no, it doesn't work, and the current system is well-designed for its purpose.

[Tro]

Look. WoW allows you to use instant attacks while your swing timer is going, and it doesn't reset the swing timer. That's probably what Tro wants - to be able to use instants without resetting the attack timer.

That said, to Tro: such works for WoW because it's a PvE-designed system with only afterthoughts thrown to PvP. GW is a PvP-designed system also used for PvE. Being able to have instant attacks not reset the swing timer would make it nearly impossible to balance physical damage dealers against casters, who don't have an "swing timer" because they don't use their weapons as their primary damage source.


In short, sorry, but no, it doesn't work, and the current system is well-designed for its purpose.

Yeah it would be OP for all attacks to work like this, but I say at lease make the Interrupts and non damage attacks, to not queue up, and be instant

[raspberry jam]

Yeah it would be OP for all attacks to work like this, but I say at lease make the Interrupts and non damage attacks, to not queue up, and be instantThey take 1/4 of a second. How much more instant do you want.

[Terenas]

I am a bit confused here.
I pretty much suck at playing Warriors but...swing timer would be the same of gw recharge time ? Or would it be the time between swings ?
If the latter, and if interrupts were 'instant', that would mean you could have the swing (be it normal or a skill swing (without activation time)) and the interrupt land at the same time ?
This could be a problem - instant damage stacking ?

To me, queuing is kind of natural as far as normal attacks go.
I hate to use rl example in games but...if I am wielding a sword, I can't attack twice at once (with two attacks landing in the same, very moment, unless dual-wielding ).

One could argue that after performing an activation time attack, the swing should start back from the point at which it got canceled. Is this the suggestion ?

[raspberry jam]

I hate to use rl example in games but...if I am wielding a sword, I can't attack twice at once (with two attacks landing in the same, very moment, unless dual-wielding ).As long as you don't mention [[Sun and Moon Slash]... :sealed:

[Nochtflamir]

I don't see the problem with the current system, Interrupts work plenty fast for me,and it makes sense not to be able to land attack 2 instantly after attack 1: melee combat would not be very effective this way - but I have almost know knowledge of how WoW combat works, so I am probably missing the point.

[Shallowrain]

Yeah it would be OP for all attacks to work like this, but I say at lease make the Interrupts and non damage attacks, to not queue up, and be instant

What on earth do you mean by non-damage attacks? Any attack skill deals weapon damage when you use it.

Attacks that have a casting time attached to them don't cue up. Any sort of instant attack will be freakishly destructive to pvp.

Right now, there are only two melee interrupt skills that do not have a casting time, Disrupting stab and Disrupting chop.

What you have to understand is how ridiculous it is to have instantly activating attacks. Let's say that I put up a bar that has:

Savage slash
Distracting Blow
skull crack
distracting strike
Disarm.

It would be stupidly silly to allow a warrior to hammer on the keyboard with his fists to activate all of these attacks all at once. throw in a backup necromancer with barbs and orders, or just go elemental with a conjure, and you're doing stupid amounts of damage in a second. Even better, swap out skull crack for Flourish, and you can do it all over again in the space of about two seconds. add in some adrenaline attacks, and it's completely destructive to the pvp system. Bonus points if you're mashing your fist on the 3x3 number pad on the right of your computer while doing this, to simulate punching your opponent in the face over the internet.

The current system of cuing attacks is what the system is designed for. Timed interrupts (the ones with a casting time) override an auto-attack. No, you can't interrupt everything. The game would be stupid if pvp fights consisted of nothing but people being interrupted everytime they did something.

[Skyy High]

Bonus points if you're mashing your fist on the 3x3 number pad on the right of your computer while doing this, to simulate punching your opponent in the face over the internet.
In all honesty, you brightened my day with this comment. :laugh:

[Lamuness]

Look. WoW allows you to use instant attacks while your swing timer is going, and it doesn't reset the swing timer. That's probably what Tro wants - to be able to use instants without resetting the attack timer.


Like what Aiiane said, the OP wants to have no overlap between attack skills and the swing timer. For example, if you are a Ranger, and you had a bow that auto shot an arrow every two seconds, when you cast, for the sake of the example, a Power Shot, that takes 1.5 seconds to cast, instead of the auto shot going off 2 seconds AFTER the Power Shot, it would go off in 0.5 seconds because the previous auto shot to the next auto shot is 2 seconds. That's what he wants.

Now, I have a problem with it because it makes the swings and such have less impact to each other. The reason why combat feels and looks like jelly to me in WoW is for this very reason.

Besides, if you were to really shoot a bow and it took you two seconds to shoot the next arrow, shooting a special shot shouldn't allow you to bypass the two second reload time of your bow.

[Tro]

They take 1/4 of a second. How much more instant do you want.
but that still not Instant


nothing Wrong with making Interrupt and Knockdowns, that dont cause damage,
to be Instant. they could still have a GCD, but would instantly go off when used. no queue up for the next auto swing

[Aiiane]

but that still not Instant


nothing Wrong with making Interrupt and Knockdowns, that dont cause damage,
to be Instant. they could still have a GCD, but would instantly go off when used. no queue up for the next auto swing

They don't queue up for the next auto swing, unless you're already using another attack skill. Skills are not auto attacks.

And no, you should not be able to chain a savage shot right before a dual shot. There's a reason interrupts have an extra aftercast.

Interrupts and knockdowns do cause damage, if you haven't noticed. Pretty much every interrupt skill used by a non-caster class does.

[Terenas]

As long as you don't mention [[Sun and Moon Slash]... :sealed:
:smiley: I didn't recall the animation of S&M Slash to have a single swing.
Does it have one or two ?

Also, I would not like gw to become an arcade hack and slash game where the first to press buttons wins.
You order the character to execute a combo, and if you see a skill you wish to interrupt, you use the interrupt, at the cost of stopping the queue (that you may or may not be able to continue afterwards). This system is not bad, I'd even say it is pretty good, with solid mechanics too.

[raspberry jam]

:smiley: I didn't recall the animation of S&M Slash to have a single swing.
Does it have one or two ?Hehe. It's just one swing. Two hits, but one swing.

Personally I think they should have used the [[Hundred Blades] animation for S&M, but they didn't.

[Seef II]

They could have forced the "slash twice" animation that you sometimes use on autoattacks for S&M, but now it's getting off topic.

I haven't played WoW, but even in other MMOs like Ragnarok Online, attack skills used your attack speed to trigger. So a more agile character could spam his attack skills as long as he could pay for them, while a slower one would look snail-like in comparison.

[Shadowleaf]

Sorry to reply to part of the OP so late, but I feel this has to be pointed out...

You use skill 1 + skill 2, then when skill 2 is going you use skill 3, and so on. It makes combat always 1 step behind you.

This is a delusion. If you were mentally ahead of combat, you would not need every action you take to instantly happen.

Most of the Bull's Strikes I get off are because I know ahead of time that my target will move, same with most interrupts when I'm on a Warrior. I do the same kind of thing with Gale when I'm on an Elementalist. Diversion is another skill that works like this.

When you're truely ahead of combat, you simply compensate for activation times by activating skills ahead of time because you know what will happen next.

Sorry if I'm making this sound easy. I don't mean to. It's not easy. No player can perfectly predict what will happen, but that's why prediction is one of the most important skills in in any properly designed game.

You need to stop relying on pure reflexes and you'll stop having these problems.

When a game allows you to react instantly, it diminishes the amount of skill required to play the game against other players. You simply counter what they do right when they do it, there's nothing interesting happening.

Of course, this isn't always the case. Take DotA or Team Fortress 2 for examples. Totally different games, but they share one thing. The combat is fast and decisive, but positioning is incredibly important. These games have so much area denial that the characters can be incredibly fast at doing damage and disruption, because it's all about predicting before the battle, all about out-positioning in preparation for battle, because the characters are so powerful, but so is the area denial.

Guild Wars does not have such powerful area denial as these two games, not even by a long shot. All the prediction happens mid battle, it's more drawn out and epic. It needs cast times, delays, etc... to reward player skill, to compensate for the diminished importance of character positioning.

[Alaris]

warrior attacks require adrenalin to build up.

True, but you get 1 adrenaline each time you hit. So 12345678 is still possible.

Also, you can use energy-using attacks to the same effect.

Basically, it allows you to spike really fast, and with the right energy & adrenaline management, continuously spike as well...

[Tro]

True, but you get 1 adrenaline each time you hit. So 12345678 is still possible.

Also, you can use energy-using attacks to the same effect.

Basically, it allows you to spike really fast, and with the right energy & adrenaline management, continuously spike as well...

still it is possibale for attack (1) to queue up and you could push lets say Attack (2) and it would overide Attack (1) if the Auto Swing (Which Procs the effect) doesnt swing before using the second attack.

[Shadowleaf]

still it is possibale for attack (1) to queue up and you could push lets say Attack (2) and it would overide Attack (1) if the Auto Swing (Which Procs the effect) doesnt swing before using the second attack.

That makes the game take less skill. When you use a skill, you have invested time in the skill. You have to wait to use another skill.

[Rockby Quickfoot]

Bonus points if you're mashing your fist on the 3x3 number pad on the right of your computer while doing this, to simulate punching your opponent in the face over the internet.

I can just imagine how many keyboards would be broken because the warrior got Soothing Images cast on him, or was blinded.

[Massacre]

If I start an attack skill partway through a NON-SKILL attack, my character aborts the strike and uses the attack skill instead. Isn't that what you're asking for?

[DrMadCat]

Has anyone thought of the problems with insta-attack skills+interrupts?

I mean if it's instant, then there is no "cast" bar, right, when activating attacks.

Let me explain. With the current system, if I have a warrior that I have, which is my target, begins to let off a spike, I can in most cases interrupt a vital part of his chain. Same applies to sins, as soon as they hit their first attack skill, usually hitting an interrupt as soon as you see it results in the second skill getting interrupted.

With a system that is much like hitting a stance (instant), how in the hell would I ever be able to interrupt an instant attack? Tell me, have any of you EVER interrupted a stance before? Therefor, in a way, Tro's insta-attacks I guess are uninterruptable as the skills stand right now.

If we think about it, he's asking for a completely new game ditching the vital mechanics that make GW quite successfully balanced in PVP.

Let's say as soon as he hits a skill the attack bar/cast bar (albeit hidden to the attacker as it's under 1 second), appears for a brief 0.5 second. How many of you are able to interrupt 0.5 spells, let alone attacks? In other words, I am not sure what the guy wants, instant attacks, or semi instant attacks, but the idea requires all the successful mechanics to be discarded for his new insta attack system. How does stuff like reckless haste work on instant attacks anyway? Just something to think about I guess.

Instant Attacks = Fail imho.

[BrotherGrimm]

Tro, you need to learn HOW to use the GW melee system, not request it be like another games. If you want a quick interrupt (NO interrupts in this game are instant), do the following:

Don't activate the next attack skill until the current one is executed (ie don't queue your skills). This will allow you instead, activate an interrupt skill that will happen right after the current skill finishes.
If you anticipate the need for an interrupt, auto attack until you need to activate the interrupt. The interrupt WILL activate almost instantly in this case.

Your request that an interrupt or knockdown skill halt the current skill action to execute is not only presents other skill queue issues, but is also highly imbalanced.

[Flamefang of Arnor]

^I agree with all of the above^

its like saying a ranger can fire ten arrows every half a second...... ok ten arrows at once is plausible but all with lets say flaming arrows it shouldn't work and would be like spamming an attack. this idea would take all skill necessary for the warrior class and take it to Zero. heck... imagine Assasins!

Sorry to continue to shoot down your idea here but it just wont work.... it would unbalance the game and make warriors insanely powerful..... give it up....

~Flamefang of Arnor

[Wethospu]

First post would make sense if he meant that:

You use attack skill 2. You press halfway attack skill 3. Attack skill 2 gets interrupted and you start using attack skill 3.

[Akirai Annuvil]

Let this sorry *** piece of a thread die already.

[shawn]

Not posting in it anymore helps.
(Yes, I see the irony.)

[Wethospu]

"I made this post in hope that this thread would disappear from everyones eyes."

[Tro]

ok so a Instant Melee Attack without a cast time should not go off Instantly is what you're saying? correct?

[Akirai Annuvil]

Let this sorry *** piece of a thread die already.

Summary. ^

[TimorEternus]

ok so a Instant Melee Attack without a cast time should not go off Instantly is what you're saying? correct?
No attack skills are instant...

Kind of like the physics of real life. If you swung a sword once, you would have to bring the sword back in order to swing again.

[Lamuness]

Let this sorry *** piece of a thread die already.

QFT

10 Characters

[SurviverX]

I like Prince of Persia/Ninja Gaiden/Assassin's Creed fighting style. We need more of these in MMO.

[tunkard]

While I can understand the idea of it to cancel off an attacking move mid-sequence, being able to execute them all at once is just absurd.

[dark3]

12345 HEADSHOT!

Sounds rather stupid to me.

That made me laugh so much!!! :laugh::grin:

[Lamuness]

How about we change the attack system and kill this thread?

[shawn]

Better idea, how about we leave it as is and kill this thread?
Because it's not going to ever get changed due to a few WoW players wishes.