View Full Version : GW2 my thoughts of most recent
I love GW having spent nearly 3 years from its launch playing with total game time of estimated 3,000+ hours. I do know I expect GW2 to improve upon GW1 in the areas it needed improving and adding to it where it lacked.
Areas of note:
Player to player trading was the worst I ever seen in any ORPG including many totally free to play (aka cash shop) MMOs.
Districting of towns and the general design of splitting the community socially by the meer design of instances and districts created or contributed to social related problems most notably trading, grouping, socializing while playing. I just don't think 100% instances had more benefits than there are downsides.
AI has room for improvement. Enemies were very predictable. And hard mode was not an improvement in AI it was -- throw more damage faster at the players so they get frustrated rather than needing more skill to face tougher AI. I had expected hard mode to have been more creatively done, instead it was disappointing to see a mostly lack of creativity put into it other than the titles related to hard mode. Those ideas were good but the lame design of harder meaning throw more damage faster at the players instead of better AI to make it harder was a huge turn off from actually trying to earn the titles.
Maps got better as new campaigns came out but the world was still quite small. The areas that gave the best sense of being part of a world were the large zones with little to no restriction of movement by terrain such as steep hills, cliffs, water we can't swim accross. I'd expect in GW2 the world to be much more vast while not making the players take a long time of doing nothing but walk.
When I heard Lord of the Rings Online was in beta and that it had an option to have a lifetime account it was the 1st MMO other than GW I could pay once and play forever. And considering that the cost of it over 3 years including any paid expansions would be what I spend on GW for its 3 years out I had a potential other game to play along with GW and other stuff I enjoyed spending free time on. And it turned out from playing during beta I found I liked the game just as much if not better than GW and preordered and got the lifetime account.
The aspects I like most in LotRO are:
Persistent world
Instancing blended in parts to help tell the plot and some subplots. Many instances are of parts of the persistent world so that events can take place within the persistent world without showing those changes to everyone else doing other stuff in the same part of the world.
Auction Hall. I don't get why this is viewed as a bad feature. If I recall interaction with anet staff on the issue seemed to indicate that it was not a good method for player based economy or whatever the player to player trading is called. It is so easy to buy and sell stuff using the auction hall that its like heading out to a local store that carries everything I could ever want. And its like owning a store I can sell anything I have ever wanted to sell. I've used it exclusively for all my buying and selling and never have I not been able to find what I wanted to buy or sold what I wanted to sell.
A good mix of solo content and group content. You have the freedom to play solo, in groups, or mix both as much or as little of one or the other as you want. The books (think primary quests, missions) are the only part of the content that you will have to group with others to do. However you don't get stuck having to put off playing until you can finish where you are at in them. There are loads of quests for every level and tons of the quests all tie into the main plot and add depth to it. I really think that anet can learn from turbines example for intertwining plot into quest design.
Crafting is simple and optional. No I've got to have tons of hide to upgrade my gear before I move on in the game. Quest rewards and/or vender bought gear are all you need until you max your level and go out to earn whatever end game gear you want. The idea of getting materials from loot to take to NPCs to make your gear in GW was interesting but I don't think I want to see it in GW2.
I think a player crafting system with quest rewards and vender bought alternatives would be much more interesting. Plus with a good variety of gear and other stuff that players can craft or buy from venders there is an on demand supply instead of grinding mobs for the gear you want. That was one of my biggest gripes with gear in GW it wasn't that the stats weren't good enough to compete or take on PvE but that the look I wanted or the specific set of stats meant grinding mobs to get them. It wasn't until salvaging was altered so that items weren't consumed and the addition of the free chests in NF that the majority of players had any chance of getting the skin they wanted with the set of stats they wanted.
Named mobs can still drop special gear like the green items. But in order to prevent camping, those mobs will have to be contained within instances. But that is easily done without taking away from having a persistent world. special gear can even drop from types of mobs world wide or more locally. For example there could be a special armor set that gives elementalists bonuses over other available armor that only drops from charr of levels 30-40.
I think if anet looks at the strong points of other games, at the parts that players like most of other games, at the best aspects of GW, and at the worst aspects of GW. And if they incorporate much of that while tossing out the worst aspects from GW, making improvements on the good in GW plus possibly from the good other other games, and mix that all into quality plot that drives you through progressing your character then GW2 will be as big if not bigger success than GW1.
Gmr Leon
13-06-2008, 01:41
One thing, you don't have to grind to get the materials to make the armor. Quests give you items or gold that you can use or not use, missions take you through a jaunt of killing, in which you get items. Items can be sold to earn bits of cash over time after which you can buy the materials.
This can be looked at as farming, but Anet has made it clear that gold and experience rewards can be provided in quests. In that way you can do quests and get items to sell and make money from the reward. It may not be much, but it's better than farming.
Farming is not necessary at all to earn money or gather materials for armor. Quests and missions provide alternatives to this monotonous action and have enough positive rewards to, for the most part, discourage that monotony. Save up your money and you'll eventually get enough to buy the materials and have enough leftover to get the armor.
Having to fight monsters for your gear just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would some random giant spider have human armor? If you're going to get armor from the monster, it should be their armor. That way it discourages farming a monster for a full set of armor because, well, the armor was fitted for the monster and isn't as effective on you. Not to mention possible negative effects the armor could have. Wearing a Charr's armor? I bet you'd fall forward a few times.
Tengu armor on the other hand, would be a bit more proper for a human, considering their similar forms, but still wouldn't be as effective as armor fitted for you.
Sure, realism can be discounted in a fantasy setting, but it just kills the immersion when a Skale drops human armor.
Edit: Yes, I do realize that it's equally absurd for them to drop powerful weapons, but at least in some of the cases they provided semi-viable reasons for their having them. Still, it does bug me a bit, but I suppose it's just one of those things you get over after awhile. I suppose the same could be said for armor dropping, but it would be preferred that it be their armor rather than human armor.
Not trying to smash your ideas here, I'm just giving my view on the bit about monsters dropping stuff like armor.
I want to start by saying thanks for the feedback it allowed me to think in more detail about what I posted.
One thing, you don't have to grind to get the materials to make the armor. Quests give you items or gold that you can use or not use, missions take you through a jaunt of killing, in which you get items. Items can be sold to earn bits of cash over time after which you can buy the materials.
I would agree that I didn't feel getting armor to be a grind until after the changes to quest rewards and such that made it easier to obtain materials one way or another. I really only brought up the differences between ways of handling obtaining armor/gear and the fact that obtaining the armor we wanted from start to end game was one of the biggest complaints even if not everyone had a problem doing obtaining armor.
This can be looked at as farming, but Anet has made it clear that gold and experience rewards can be provided in quests. In that way you can do quests and get items to sell and make money from the reward. It may not be much, but it's better than farming.
I retain this quoted section and state as a way of agreement or emphasis that quest rewards should be good enough that players will want to use the items they get from the quests and also so that questing is just as rewarding if not more so than going out and killing stuff if that is a preferred way for some to gain currency. That way grinding mobs does not offer any one group an advantage over another group financially. To put that to a cover all statement, equal time spent questing or grinding mobs in group or solo should have equal reward of currency.
Having to fight monsters for your gear just doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would some random giant spider have human armor? If you're going to get armor from the monster, it should be their armor. That way it discourages farming a monster for a full set of armor because, well, the armor was fitted for the monster and isn't as effective on you.
I agree that it would make no sense for a spider or other creature to drop human armor or even weapons unless perhaps it was a really big spider than eats humans and the armor was in its stomach. Humanoid mobs its ok to drop humanoid gear even if it is of a different race because they could have looted a corpse of that race to get it and be carrying it when you attacked them. But creatures like spiders, wolves, bears, wurms, skale, dragons, aloe, etc should drop merchant fodder stuff like claws, pelts, paws, scales, etc that sold to a merchant for currency.
But there is a good way to handle having special items or items of a set of items drop from humanoid mobs. 1st and foremost the mobs have to be contained within instances so that they cannot be camped. 2nd is that the item is a guaranteed drop once the specific mob is killed.
The instance could be an underground multileveled cavern and at the end of each level there is a boss fight and each boss drops a special item or piece of an item set. Having the item drop be guaranteed that means every time you go someone will get the item.
This can further be improved on by allowing a choice of looting rules such as roll/pass at a chosen rarity threshold, need/greed/pass (fair as long as everyone obeys the rules set forth for need) and master looter. With master looter if you organize a group to do the instance repeatedly say once, twice, three times a week or whatever someone trustworthy would be the master looter. The master looter has the power to hand out who gets items at or above the chosen rarity threshold. So in this group that does repeated trips over the course of each week then the master looter would excluded anyone who has already gotten a particular item(s) if they have it or have gotten real lucky with rolls to get more than their fair share of the special items or item set pieces.
Not to mention possible negative effects the armor could have. Wearing a Charr's armor? I bet you'd fall forward a few times.
There could be charr armor for charr characters, human armor for humans and the armor could even have a class (profession to use GW term) restriction. Stats could be the same for each race, class (profession). Or perhaps if there are racial bonuses like in tradition RPGs there could be racial bonuses on each of the race variants of a type of special gear drop or even crafted or vender bought gear as well.
Gmr Leon
13-06-2008, 03:08
You misunderstood the Charr armor example, I know for almost absolute certain there will be Charr armor exclusively for that race, in the same way that there will be armor exclusive for every other race.
What I was attempting to convey was the absurdity of fighting a Charr, killing it, and it dropping its armor for you to be able to wear. Which would be a result of any system I made for a single-player or online game. You want armor to drop from monsters? Alright, we'll make some sentient races that can forge armor, and you can wear their armor. Just be ready for the negative side effects of wearing armor not made for you. :tongue:
Balan Makki
13-06-2008, 04:31
Sure, realism can be discounted in a fantasy setting, but it just kills the immersion when a Skale drops human armor.
Unless said--now dead--skale is wearing the ill fitting armor of his last victim . . . and that victim happened to be my twin BRotheR!
Yeah, I like harvesting mats from dropped armor, though this very simple system could be enhanced to a much greater degree. I'd love to trophy hunt for gear, and adding in full blown recipes would be fun as well. And a very relaxed style of grind.
raspberry jam
13-06-2008, 10:27
Crafting is simple and optional. No I've got to have tons of hide to upgrade my gear before I move on in the game. Quest rewards and/or vender bought gear are all you need until you max your level and go out to earn whatever end game gear you want. The idea of getting materials from loot to take to NPCs to make your gear in GW was interesting but I don't think I want to see it in GW2.Shad [Material trader]. Talk to him. You can find him in Lion's Arch.
I'd love to trophy hunt for gear, and adding in full blown recipes would be fun as well. And a very relaxed style of grind.Blocking people from getting what they want until they have killed the proper amount of enemies? It smells like World of Warcraft in here. But you like WoW, right?
That said, trophy hunting is fun, it's just too bad that most people never realize that the only actual such hunting in GW is capturing elite skills.
Having the item drop be guaranteed that means every time you go someone will get the item.
Now that I would have to agree with.
This can further be improved on by allowing a choice of looting rules such as roll/pass at a chosen rarity threshold, need/greed/pass ...
Not to sure about this .. seemed to cause a bit of angst in WoW. If it is like this then keep it simple Need/Pass system. However your chance of receiving the item is inversely proportional to how many times you have received it in the past.
Balan Makki
13-06-2008, 13:40
But you like WoW, right?
Oh, yeaah. . . :shocked: You are baiting me. I'll bite. (I've been baiting the Evercrack crowd at Guru too long, just. . can't . . help . . .myself. It's like an . . addiction.)
I think Guild Wars has a solid grasp on the small grinds they do provide, if something is achievable in a casual evening or two of game play, then that would be a rather relaxed grind. Arena Net has actually given players options here as well. Most missions and quests lead you through territories where appropriate trophies drop. Thus, just saving trophies while playing the game is enough. But many of us never do that so we have to go on the infamous kill quest for a few hours. There is a reason we all get it backwards, I'm sure Arena Net has figured it out and will do things differently in GW2. They don't need my 2 cents.
WoW is a time sink and anyone who thinks differently needs therapy. Though WoW is also an amazingly solid product, and many of WoW's fans now have an acquired taste for waisting time as means content. The industry has some very odd standards established via the proverbial "Asian Grinder". GW is the first to break the mould, Arena Net should not change a thing, unless it is to realize their own vision more fully.
raspberry jam
13-06-2008, 18:55
I think Guild Wars has a solid grasp on the small grinds they do provide, if something is achievable in a casual evening or two of game play, then that would be a rather relaxed grind. Arena Net has actually given players options here as well. Most missions and quests lead you through territories where appropriate trophies drop. Thus, just saving trophies while playing the game is enough. But many of us never do that so we have to go on the infamous kill quest for a few hours. There is a reason we all get it backwards, I'm sure Arena Net has figured it out and will do things differently in GW2. They don't need my 2 cents.Ah I see what you mean. Yes in that case I agree with you, of course.
But no, speaking from experience, they do need your ¢2, in fact they'll want to listen to all of us. That doesn't mean that they'll do what we say, just that they'll want to hear it.
You misunderstood the Charr armor example, I know for almost absolute certain there will be Charr armor exclusively for that race, in the same way that there will be armor exclusive for every other race.
What I was attempting to convey was the absurdity of fighting a Charr, killing it, and it dropping its armor for you to be able to wear. Which would be a result of any system I made for a single-player or online game. You want armor to drop from monsters? Alright, we'll make some sentient races that can forge armor, and you can wear their armor. Just be ready for the negative side effects of wearing armor not made for you. :tongue:
I indeed must not completely understand your idea. I'm used to games similar to diablo II for example where item sets dropped from mobs. After reading the quoted reply I get the impression that the reason armor should not drop from mobs is because of the idea of making it more realistic and the armor being customized for you. Like in the way GW1 did it. The idea behind it other than eliminating the need to farm mobs to get it was, in reality armor is going to be custom made to fit you. Thus why in GW you would go to an NPC to craft the armor. Perhaps then rather than mobs dropping armor sets then they could drop magical scrolls that can be used to turn any armor crafted for you into the armor set that would allow mobs to drop special things like item sets and still retain the more realistic armor not made for you won't fit right.
Shad [Material trader]. Talk to him. You can find him in Lion's Arch.
Yes I understand that you can buy materials. I never had a problem getting armor in GW nor any other game I have played. The part you quoted for this reply I mentioned because getting armor as you level up was said to be hard and one of the major complaints people made.
Blocking people from getting what they want until they have killed the proper amount of enemies? It smells like World of Warcraft in here. But you like WoW, right?
[quote]
I only played WoW for the length of a 4 week trial I got some time back. Personally I was not impressed with the game. I don't know why people are so quick to pull the WoW trigger. Loot as the source of gear goes all the way back to early video RPGs. Diablo I & II are popular examples but there were games eariler than these. Not every RPG worked gear like that but I do remember playing a lot of them that did.
You don't have to equate mob grinding with obtain gear in loot. Newer MMOs are using the guaranteed drop method and placing the gear droppers within instancing in the games to prevent camping. The instances are generally part of the main plot of the game or some sort of side plot adventure. They are generally fun to do and your reward is a nice piece of gear you can get.
GW kind of did this with the end game zones like Sorrows Furnace, Tombs UW, etc with the green items. The thing I didn't like was how rare they were. Basically it was a grind or buy from those who did. It would have worked better if there had been an auction house in GW. The green item market would have worked out much better. Forum and web based trading is what kept it from being a total bomb.
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Not to sure about this .. seemed to cause a bit of angst in WoW. If it is like this then keep it simple Need/Pass system. However your chance of receiving the item is inversely proportional to how many times you have received it in the past.
My experience with looting rules comes from playing LotRO. It started out with just roll/pass. Which was fine and it is the more commonly used loot rule. However some groups will use roll/pass and specify that for certain things only roll if you are of the class (profession) that can use the item. But need/greed/pass comes in handy for certain places in the game works really well as long as everyone in the group follows proper need/greed/pass etiquette. But this is why players are given the option to choose which loot rule they want to use for the group.
A simple roll/pass system that weights rolls based on variable such as how many times you got the item before, if the item is applicable to your class (profession), etc could be possible I just don't know how easy it would be to create such a system. Since the idea is based on tracking rolls for items there would have to be a databased stored for each character to be queried for the weighted rolls.
Most of the time simple roll/pass is perfect. But end game sort of zones like elite missions and such where it takes like a minimum of several hours to get to the end, master looter style rules using roll/pass or need/greed/pass depending on how the group wants to handle loot rolling (need/greed/pass allows a limited weighted roll since needs roll before greeds) are more appropriate. I certainly would hate to do the same end game zone spending 3+ hours each time to see the same person get the special items from the zone. That is where the different style of loot rules allows for groups to customize fairness of looting in this kind of situation.
I think Guild Wars has a solid grasp on the small grinds they do provide, if something is achievable in a casual evening or two of game play, then that would be a rather relaxed grind. Arena Net has actually given players options here as well. Most missions and quests lead you through territories where appropriate trophies drop. Thus, just saving trophies while playing the game is enough. But many of us never do that so we have to go on the infamous kill quest for a few hours. There is a reason we all get it backwards, I'm sure Arena Net has figured it out and will do things differently in GW2. They don't need my 2 cents.
I agree. I think they handled time requirements fairly well with GW. Though some things were a bit out there. Even though we can say well you don't "need" to do such and such there was some stuff later on that created slight advantages for those willing to grind which turned away from the concept of more time spent = greater advantage. Sure this was meant more for PvPing but it also was meant for PvE as one of the major dislikes of prior MMOs was the having to spend a lot of time in PvE to gain advantages.
WoW is a time sink and anyone who thinks differently needs therapy. Though WoW is also an amazingly solid product, and many of WoW's fans now have an acquired taste for waisting time as means content. The industry has some very odd standards established via the proverbial "Asian Grinder". GW is the first to break the mould, Arena Net should not change a thing, unless it is to realize their own vision more fully.
MMOs from WoW and before are built upon the time sink concept. Its rather obvious that if you want to generate high profits off of a subscription based income you must create your product to keep people paying the subscription. I'm sure many of the popular MMOs are solid products otherwise they wouldn't be popular. Heck I'd probably play some of them if they has a pay once play forever alternative to paying monthly fees.
Arena Net is one of the 1st to offer an MMO (even though its 100% instancing put it into a class of its own its still conceptually an MMO just not conforming to traditional world design). Of course GW2 will have a more tradition world design but will carry a revolutionary way of designing MMOs. And with LotRO we have two games that break the mould. They offer lifetime accounts while its not quite the same as buying GW. Its like buying a more expensive box for the beginning of the game and never having to pay again except buying the expansions you want.
Plus LotRO really has a most superbly written story to it. In fact I enjoy its story as much if not more than I do GWs story. Many of the aspects I loved with GW I see and love in LotRO. I've played a lot of MMOs even if it was just trials of the subscription ones and I can't say I've played any that can come close to the enjoyment I get out of GW and LotRO let alone be a game I can say I think is equal to GW. I really think that these companies really hit on the future of MMOs.
But no, speaking from experience, they do need your ¢2, in fact they'll want to listen to all of us. That doesn't mean that they'll do what we say, just that they'll want to hear it.
This is why I created this thread. I wanted to write aspects of GW and LotRO that I liked so that they would know what it is I like and would like to see a part of GW2. I'm not one to not play a game if it doesn't have this or that feature. However I am one to not play a game if it is not well designed. That is to say the story must have quality so that I feel, through playing my character, that I'm a part of the story providing me grand purpose for what I do. And the game must flow well. I have played some RPGs (and MMOs) that you must stop at some point and grind your levels up on mobs to continue the story.
Many games out there lack in plot design with quest dialog like: our farmers are getting attacked by wolves will you exterminate them for us. Uncreative dialog like that doesn't drive me to want to go kill those wolves and games that all their quests are as uncreative as that I don't want to play. However a quest involving the same quest mechanic of going out and killing wolves, but provides a grander plot element such as fighting your way to save a critical character in the plot that you have, through story telling have grown attached to, so that I want to go rescue him/her. That would drive me to want to kill those wolves. Plus it also turns your thoughts away from having to kill x number of wolves because that is not the focus of the quest but a byproduct of the task you are set out to do.
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