Tsume
06-12-2004, 18:23
This thread is devoted to the refinement of our PvP strategy. All ideas and oppinions are accepted, and sought after. Please unleash the creativity of your mind in this thread.
Post in this thread so that we may discuss our PvP theories, because we all have some good ideas, and we need to get together and compromise and really think out our basic strategy before the event.
What we have spoken of so far:
We also need to work on PvP. I think out strategy was lacking as far as actual fighting. I got to play from both points of view - W/Mo and Mo/E. Playing as a monk, you get upset that enemy warriors charge past and attack you instantly. Makes sense from their point of view, but why wont our warriors pull back for protection? Instead of being able to heal my warriors, i have to heal myself. From a warrior point of view, I do admit I mostly attacked their weak casters (which must be done). I'm still thinking of a good balance. The Me/W is a wonderful caster killer, so maybe a couple of those, then say 3 warriors just to keep their warriors busy. Then an elly and 2 monks? thats 8, but im jsut thinking out loud before bed lol.
As far as the Battles go, you hit the issue head on. We cant focus purely on the offensive strategy, like what we used today. If all of the teams warriors are going after one target, that means all the other targets are open to go after all of us, diverting our attention greatly. I myself found it very hard to focus fire while a mountain of a warrior was dismembering me. And I wasnt even a healer. We have to have some kind of defense against that. Even if it becomes an actual defensive line with everyone aside from the caster seekers in their reach to protect.
It works too fold. I cant stand in the same spot and launch ranged attacks if a warrior is slashing at me. But that warrior isnt going to keep slashing on me if one of our wariors goes to town on him. The quick way to get an opponents direct attention is through assault. We have to keep that attention off of our monks and casters, as they are the guys healing and doing massive damage. With virtually all players, certainly warriors friend or foe, having Healing Hands on them, the Physical attacks arnt going to cut it on the other warriors. I think a strategy of holding out against the bulk of their force, and then allowing designated players to slay casters.
I know that monks are a lifeline, literally of any team. But there are ways of neutralizing them without using direct fire. I think we are going to have to utilize the spells/skills in the games that exploit this. Instead of focusing our attention on one monk, whom just gets healed by the other two, while the warriors chase after all of our 'soft' players...I propose we should opt for mana burning/dazed/condition spreading/DoT's etc. Things that counter effect the healing powers, airgo throwing an imbalance into the two teams and giving us the advantage.
Something that can be done vs. rushing chars, is spells that slows their movement. We could use something with slow + cold, if they stack, which makes them slow as hell, and then we just slaughter them with focused fire.
Argh, I typed a long reply but the forum ate it up. :rant:
Anyway, here's the cliffnotes version of a simple strat I was thinking up:
Party:
W/Mo
W/Me
W/E
W/?
W/?
Mo/?
Mo/? (maybe E/Me? Ah, but that's a different issue entirely)
E/Me (or Me/E, depends on the skillset. Focus is on hexes)
-One of the W/? protects one of the Mo/?
-E/Me is the glue that holds the strategy together. His job is to ensure the opponents have a tough time attacking our Monks, and support the W/?'s this way.
-W/Mo keeps an eye out for E/Me and ressurrects/heals if needed, but otherwise is a normal W.
-The rest of the Ws are free to engage however they like (should focus on ranged attackers/spellcasters targetting our Monks, though)
The problem I'm trying to solve through this strategy is the inabillity for the Monk to be able to heal people and survive at the same time. If they go too near to melee, they're automatically the hottest target. If they stray too far from the frontline, they're either picked off by ranged attackers or ambushed, and have no support.
This way, Monks can move where ever they're needed(to a certain degree), and still have a decent amount of support, so they can get their job done without being bothered too much by opponents. To prevent the plain Ws(who have no support duties, other than pitching in for the E/Me should he fall) from being overwhelmed, however, the W/?s should stay a quick distance away from the frontline, so as to be able to provide support for the Mo/? he's assigned to, but at the same time pitch in the frontline.
The Achillies'(hope I spelled that right ) heel of this strat is the vulnerabillity of the E/Me. Aside from a little support from the Mo/W, he's pretty much on his own. This could be patched up if pets could be given commands like "Guard Player", but that isn't available. :/
Just my 2 cents. Please don't rip this strat apart overmuch. :teeth: :lol:
Anyway, dwelling on it a bit more, the W/? Monk supporters probably aren't the best class for the job, as they can't respond well to ranged attacks. Ideas?
hmm that IS a lot of warriors, however if we use their secondary professions wisely, I think it could work. it all depends on skills. That is incorporated with what Tsume said. It will take some thought.
i think you are suggesting way too many warriors, 3 would be enough. The big flaw of having so many warriors is an elementalist will rip more than half the team apart already, not to mention the monk will have trouble healing them, unless they have heal party, but they have to worry about themselves as well where no one is in the back "protecting" them.
Other classes are also extremely valuable, and they are somewhat those that will be in the back protecting each other. Usually its 2-3 warriors going for the monk or a caster, it might not have worked for us too well but Ive seen it work very well on certain opponents ive faced. 2-3 warriors (including myself) were after a monk and he would not simply die. thats already 3/8 chars being "taking" care of. The monk would have healing hands on him, so he would heal everytime we would attack, another monk was casting heals and reversal of fortune. The monk which was tanking was casting healing breeze at half bar. Keep in mind those monks also had time to heal their teammates. So that was a huge issue. 3 of 8 was stalled while attacking 1 enemy and he was still able to heal others.
What made things worse since we were teaming up on the monk, the usual elementalist would be backing up the monk by casting AoE damage, somewhat getting free hits while attacking 3 at once! thus causing our ally monks to worry even more. Now imagine 2 elementalists taking care of those 3 warriors, i dont know about you guys, but elementalists hurt really bad, especially burns. if they take out the 3 tanks, casters become vulnerable and thus, its almost over.
In our guild battle, it was pretty much the samething, except add a mesmer to make things even worse. they were taking out a warrior in matter of seconds while the monk we were attacking simply wouldnt die.
Their strategy worked a bit different though, we approached the casters too soon so the enemy warriors went to back up whoever we were attacking.
I still dont have the whole mechanics of PvP in mind yet, but i am just pointing out what i see and what i think.
undead's team build sounds like what i had in mind (except i only pointed out the primary classes and i didnt have a ranger in there :O)
W/Mo
W/Mo
W/N
Mo/Me
Mo/R
Me/N
R/Me
E/R
i like it very much actually. 2 warriors that wont be requiring much healing if he is attacked by physical attacks, can heal his warrior teammate, etc. This is what was happening in yesterday's match. Happy was casting healing breeze on both of us and we were able to survive pretty long. Now imagine if i also had healing breeze. healing breeze + healing hands = nice. Now if you slap a mending on a warrior, 2 monks on 2 warriors, now you wont need to worry too much about them.
warrior / necro, wow i had a lot of fun with mine especially when i was the one being tanked. The premade had a life syphon (sp?) which would give me 2 arrows of regen and the opponent 2 negative arrows of regen which would cut a bit of his/her healing. then i have that skill which i forgot its name where it passes a condition to an enemy. Wow, that was extremely useful. I like to add some builds to undead's strategy. The classes seems like a good basis.
that premade build had exactly what i envisioned in my current warrior, but more!
Berserker Stance: For 5-10 seconds, you attack 33% faster than normal and gain 50% more adrenaline each time you hit in melee. Berserker Stance ends if you use a skill.
Devastating Hammer: If Devastating Hammer hits, your target is knocked down and suffers from weakness for 5-17 seconds. This is an elite skill.
Heavy Blow: Lose all adrenaline. If this attack hits a foe suffering from weakness, that foe is knocked down and you strike for 1-24 more damage.
Crushing Blow: If this attack hits, you strike for 1-16 more damage. If you hit a knocked-down enemy, you inflict a deep wound, lowering your target's maximum health by 20% for 5-17 seconds.
this is how i would be attacking, in the same order. I would cast zerk stance, attacking 33% faster normally, gaining adrenaline. then once devasting hammer was ready, i would use it. if hits, opponent gets knocked down, damaged and suffers from weakness. and the fact it hits, heavy blow gets exactly enough adrenaline to activate, so i use it. opponent gets knocked down and damaged again. right away i would use crushing blow as the person is on the floor, now opponent takes damage and suffers from deep wounds (20% max hp is taking off, acts like death penalty). it doesnt really do 20% max hp damage, but lowers the cap which i find very useful especially if its someone who keeps getting continuously healed. Now add the fact that you are doing this to any caster, he/she gets knocked down twice cancelling everytime he/she is casting something, wow, amazing.
Now imagine 2 warriors knocking he/she down while the third warrior is a sword build giving bleeding condition. The one getting pummeled i think wouldnt be able to endure much of it. If 2 casters are next to each other, maybe its even possible to take them out simultaneously, cutting off 2 sources of damage and heal. I havent really got a chance to look at axes, so i cant much in that department.
so... 3 warriors, 2 x W/Mo and W/N. 2 hammers, 1 sword.
the monks, well healing :O, healing breeze, shielding hands, heal party, mending, Restore Life, next 3, not sure.
mesmer: ill let tsume or someone who is experienced with mesmer to suggest something. as long as its something keeps the opponent messed up without continuously focusing on him/her, the interrupts are also very nice, especially if you put it on an elementalist or monk. I mean they usually heal themselves thoroughly when they're near death, so if you can counter that, its a done deal.
ranger: i have no experience with rangers, so i dont know.
elementalist: i personally rather have 2 ellies instead of a ranger and elly, but i may change my mind, i dont know. both fire base or 1 fire and 1 earth based. fire base has crazy AoE, earth has nice buffs and has the ability to knock down people in an AoE skill as well. very useful. secondary class: i dont know.
wow another long post. =/
i think this should have been posted in the strat guide.
The two Guilds we faced varied slighlty. One relied on warriors to chase after casters and slay them. The warriors would often split their attacks on every caster, and then all but one warrior would run to one non warrior target and slay them while the other went back and forth between the remaining casters. The rest of the opposing team seemed to focus on our three warriors whom were going after their one monk. Sometimes their strat varied slighlty depending on who we were attacking, but basically the warriors were molesting our casters while we were bieng tanked.
The second team used a more defensive strategy. Ther warriors werent the problem...their lethal mesmer and strong ranged attacks were. As a backline caster I was never even attacked by their warriors, it seemed that they only engaged whomever was attacking one of their team mates. But their mesmer drained my mana constantly. I dont know if any of the other casters were being targeted with that but I was able to get off very limited shots because I seemed to get my energy stolen everytime that mesmer was around. She positioned herself directly in the middle of combat in most the situations...she was never behind the line, off to the side, but rather in the center of everything. She was the staple of that team IMO. We were able to finally slay one of their monks whom strayed too far from the team and they retreated breifly. Well as Kaz pointed out, they probably "wanted to see how high their morale could go". I liked our second opponents more as they seemed more balanced, and less Warrior oriented. For the first team the offensive warrior strategy mowed us down, as they had superior warror numbers to us. In that situation we probably shouldve pulled back and had our warriors play as defense to the rest of the team. In the second situation we were more evenly matched aside from that Mesmer. Those DoT's ate through all of us.
In both cases the teams had the morale boost. Their are two things we can do to counter this. One is to try and run to the watchtowers first, in which a battle will most likely ensue. The second is to immediatly run out our second entrance up to their other entrance (the none morale boost watchtower route) and commence an assault. They would either run forth into ours and do the same after they got the notice that they were under attack, or they would run back to oppose us. We could have one player that stayed behind with the flag...hidden up on the top of the ramp by where the enemies come in, whom slipped by them up the route they came and then planted the flag in the slot. This would make them think "my god how did they get behind us", and may even divert their attention back to the watchtowers to retake it. From then on it would be a race to either get to the Guild Lord first or for the other team to get back to their castle to defend it. It is a plan that leaves us completly vulnerable at home, but them as well. Both times we played the defenders...we couldnt take down those teams but we couldve mowed through what little resistance thier fortress offered and slain their Guild Lord. The non watchtower entrances are entrances slightly closer to the steps leading to the Guild Lord if my memory serves.
Post in this thread so that we may discuss our PvP theories, because we all have some good ideas, and we need to get together and compromise and really think out our basic strategy before the event.
What we have spoken of so far:
We also need to work on PvP. I think out strategy was lacking as far as actual fighting. I got to play from both points of view - W/Mo and Mo/E. Playing as a monk, you get upset that enemy warriors charge past and attack you instantly. Makes sense from their point of view, but why wont our warriors pull back for protection? Instead of being able to heal my warriors, i have to heal myself. From a warrior point of view, I do admit I mostly attacked their weak casters (which must be done). I'm still thinking of a good balance. The Me/W is a wonderful caster killer, so maybe a couple of those, then say 3 warriors just to keep their warriors busy. Then an elly and 2 monks? thats 8, but im jsut thinking out loud before bed lol.
As far as the Battles go, you hit the issue head on. We cant focus purely on the offensive strategy, like what we used today. If all of the teams warriors are going after one target, that means all the other targets are open to go after all of us, diverting our attention greatly. I myself found it very hard to focus fire while a mountain of a warrior was dismembering me. And I wasnt even a healer. We have to have some kind of defense against that. Even if it becomes an actual defensive line with everyone aside from the caster seekers in their reach to protect.
It works too fold. I cant stand in the same spot and launch ranged attacks if a warrior is slashing at me. But that warrior isnt going to keep slashing on me if one of our wariors goes to town on him. The quick way to get an opponents direct attention is through assault. We have to keep that attention off of our monks and casters, as they are the guys healing and doing massive damage. With virtually all players, certainly warriors friend or foe, having Healing Hands on them, the Physical attacks arnt going to cut it on the other warriors. I think a strategy of holding out against the bulk of their force, and then allowing designated players to slay casters.
I know that monks are a lifeline, literally of any team. But there are ways of neutralizing them without using direct fire. I think we are going to have to utilize the spells/skills in the games that exploit this. Instead of focusing our attention on one monk, whom just gets healed by the other two, while the warriors chase after all of our 'soft' players...I propose we should opt for mana burning/dazed/condition spreading/DoT's etc. Things that counter effect the healing powers, airgo throwing an imbalance into the two teams and giving us the advantage.
Something that can be done vs. rushing chars, is spells that slows their movement. We could use something with slow + cold, if they stack, which makes them slow as hell, and then we just slaughter them with focused fire.
Argh, I typed a long reply but the forum ate it up. :rant:
Anyway, here's the cliffnotes version of a simple strat I was thinking up:
Party:
W/Mo
W/Me
W/E
W/?
W/?
Mo/?
Mo/? (maybe E/Me? Ah, but that's a different issue entirely)
E/Me (or Me/E, depends on the skillset. Focus is on hexes)
-One of the W/? protects one of the Mo/?
-E/Me is the glue that holds the strategy together. His job is to ensure the opponents have a tough time attacking our Monks, and support the W/?'s this way.
-W/Mo keeps an eye out for E/Me and ressurrects/heals if needed, but otherwise is a normal W.
-The rest of the Ws are free to engage however they like (should focus on ranged attackers/spellcasters targetting our Monks, though)
The problem I'm trying to solve through this strategy is the inabillity for the Monk to be able to heal people and survive at the same time. If they go too near to melee, they're automatically the hottest target. If they stray too far from the frontline, they're either picked off by ranged attackers or ambushed, and have no support.
This way, Monks can move where ever they're needed(to a certain degree), and still have a decent amount of support, so they can get their job done without being bothered too much by opponents. To prevent the plain Ws(who have no support duties, other than pitching in for the E/Me should he fall) from being overwhelmed, however, the W/?s should stay a quick distance away from the frontline, so as to be able to provide support for the Mo/? he's assigned to, but at the same time pitch in the frontline.
The Achillies'(hope I spelled that right ) heel of this strat is the vulnerabillity of the E/Me. Aside from a little support from the Mo/W, he's pretty much on his own. This could be patched up if pets could be given commands like "Guard Player", but that isn't available. :/
Just my 2 cents. Please don't rip this strat apart overmuch. :teeth: :lol:
Anyway, dwelling on it a bit more, the W/? Monk supporters probably aren't the best class for the job, as they can't respond well to ranged attacks. Ideas?
hmm that IS a lot of warriors, however if we use their secondary professions wisely, I think it could work. it all depends on skills. That is incorporated with what Tsume said. It will take some thought.
i think you are suggesting way too many warriors, 3 would be enough. The big flaw of having so many warriors is an elementalist will rip more than half the team apart already, not to mention the monk will have trouble healing them, unless they have heal party, but they have to worry about themselves as well where no one is in the back "protecting" them.
Other classes are also extremely valuable, and they are somewhat those that will be in the back protecting each other. Usually its 2-3 warriors going for the monk or a caster, it might not have worked for us too well but Ive seen it work very well on certain opponents ive faced. 2-3 warriors (including myself) were after a monk and he would not simply die. thats already 3/8 chars being "taking" care of. The monk would have healing hands on him, so he would heal everytime we would attack, another monk was casting heals and reversal of fortune. The monk which was tanking was casting healing breeze at half bar. Keep in mind those monks also had time to heal their teammates. So that was a huge issue. 3 of 8 was stalled while attacking 1 enemy and he was still able to heal others.
What made things worse since we were teaming up on the monk, the usual elementalist would be backing up the monk by casting AoE damage, somewhat getting free hits while attacking 3 at once! thus causing our ally monks to worry even more. Now imagine 2 elementalists taking care of those 3 warriors, i dont know about you guys, but elementalists hurt really bad, especially burns. if they take out the 3 tanks, casters become vulnerable and thus, its almost over.
In our guild battle, it was pretty much the samething, except add a mesmer to make things even worse. they were taking out a warrior in matter of seconds while the monk we were attacking simply wouldnt die.
Their strategy worked a bit different though, we approached the casters too soon so the enemy warriors went to back up whoever we were attacking.
I still dont have the whole mechanics of PvP in mind yet, but i am just pointing out what i see and what i think.
undead's team build sounds like what i had in mind (except i only pointed out the primary classes and i didnt have a ranger in there :O)
W/Mo
W/Mo
W/N
Mo/Me
Mo/R
Me/N
R/Me
E/R
i like it very much actually. 2 warriors that wont be requiring much healing if he is attacked by physical attacks, can heal his warrior teammate, etc. This is what was happening in yesterday's match. Happy was casting healing breeze on both of us and we were able to survive pretty long. Now imagine if i also had healing breeze. healing breeze + healing hands = nice. Now if you slap a mending on a warrior, 2 monks on 2 warriors, now you wont need to worry too much about them.
warrior / necro, wow i had a lot of fun with mine especially when i was the one being tanked. The premade had a life syphon (sp?) which would give me 2 arrows of regen and the opponent 2 negative arrows of regen which would cut a bit of his/her healing. then i have that skill which i forgot its name where it passes a condition to an enemy. Wow, that was extremely useful. I like to add some builds to undead's strategy. The classes seems like a good basis.
that premade build had exactly what i envisioned in my current warrior, but more!
Berserker Stance: For 5-10 seconds, you attack 33% faster than normal and gain 50% more adrenaline each time you hit in melee. Berserker Stance ends if you use a skill.
Devastating Hammer: If Devastating Hammer hits, your target is knocked down and suffers from weakness for 5-17 seconds. This is an elite skill.
Heavy Blow: Lose all adrenaline. If this attack hits a foe suffering from weakness, that foe is knocked down and you strike for 1-24 more damage.
Crushing Blow: If this attack hits, you strike for 1-16 more damage. If you hit a knocked-down enemy, you inflict a deep wound, lowering your target's maximum health by 20% for 5-17 seconds.
this is how i would be attacking, in the same order. I would cast zerk stance, attacking 33% faster normally, gaining adrenaline. then once devasting hammer was ready, i would use it. if hits, opponent gets knocked down, damaged and suffers from weakness. and the fact it hits, heavy blow gets exactly enough adrenaline to activate, so i use it. opponent gets knocked down and damaged again. right away i would use crushing blow as the person is on the floor, now opponent takes damage and suffers from deep wounds (20% max hp is taking off, acts like death penalty). it doesnt really do 20% max hp damage, but lowers the cap which i find very useful especially if its someone who keeps getting continuously healed. Now add the fact that you are doing this to any caster, he/she gets knocked down twice cancelling everytime he/she is casting something, wow, amazing.
Now imagine 2 warriors knocking he/she down while the third warrior is a sword build giving bleeding condition. The one getting pummeled i think wouldnt be able to endure much of it. If 2 casters are next to each other, maybe its even possible to take them out simultaneously, cutting off 2 sources of damage and heal. I havent really got a chance to look at axes, so i cant much in that department.
so... 3 warriors, 2 x W/Mo and W/N. 2 hammers, 1 sword.
the monks, well healing :O, healing breeze, shielding hands, heal party, mending, Restore Life, next 3, not sure.
mesmer: ill let tsume or someone who is experienced with mesmer to suggest something. as long as its something keeps the opponent messed up without continuously focusing on him/her, the interrupts are also very nice, especially if you put it on an elementalist or monk. I mean they usually heal themselves thoroughly when they're near death, so if you can counter that, its a done deal.
ranger: i have no experience with rangers, so i dont know.
elementalist: i personally rather have 2 ellies instead of a ranger and elly, but i may change my mind, i dont know. both fire base or 1 fire and 1 earth based. fire base has crazy AoE, earth has nice buffs and has the ability to knock down people in an AoE skill as well. very useful. secondary class: i dont know.
wow another long post. =/
i think this should have been posted in the strat guide.
The two Guilds we faced varied slighlty. One relied on warriors to chase after casters and slay them. The warriors would often split their attacks on every caster, and then all but one warrior would run to one non warrior target and slay them while the other went back and forth between the remaining casters. The rest of the opposing team seemed to focus on our three warriors whom were going after their one monk. Sometimes their strat varied slighlty depending on who we were attacking, but basically the warriors were molesting our casters while we were bieng tanked.
The second team used a more defensive strategy. Ther warriors werent the problem...their lethal mesmer and strong ranged attacks were. As a backline caster I was never even attacked by their warriors, it seemed that they only engaged whomever was attacking one of their team mates. But their mesmer drained my mana constantly. I dont know if any of the other casters were being targeted with that but I was able to get off very limited shots because I seemed to get my energy stolen everytime that mesmer was around. She positioned herself directly in the middle of combat in most the situations...she was never behind the line, off to the side, but rather in the center of everything. She was the staple of that team IMO. We were able to finally slay one of their monks whom strayed too far from the team and they retreated breifly. Well as Kaz pointed out, they probably "wanted to see how high their morale could go". I liked our second opponents more as they seemed more balanced, and less Warrior oriented. For the first team the offensive warrior strategy mowed us down, as they had superior warror numbers to us. In that situation we probably shouldve pulled back and had our warriors play as defense to the rest of the team. In the second situation we were more evenly matched aside from that Mesmer. Those DoT's ate through all of us.
In both cases the teams had the morale boost. Their are two things we can do to counter this. One is to try and run to the watchtowers first, in which a battle will most likely ensue. The second is to immediatly run out our second entrance up to their other entrance (the none morale boost watchtower route) and commence an assault. They would either run forth into ours and do the same after they got the notice that they were under attack, or they would run back to oppose us. We could have one player that stayed behind with the flag...hidden up on the top of the ramp by where the enemies come in, whom slipped by them up the route they came and then planted the flag in the slot. This would make them think "my god how did they get behind us", and may even divert their attention back to the watchtowers to retake it. From then on it would be a race to either get to the Guild Lord first or for the other team to get back to their castle to defend it. It is a plan that leaves us completly vulnerable at home, but them as well. Both times we played the defenders...we couldnt take down those teams but we couldve mowed through what little resistance thier fortress offered and slain their Guild Lord. The non watchtower entrances are entrances slightly closer to the steps leading to the Guild Lord if my memory serves.