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Tsume
06-12-2004, 18:23
This thread is devoted to the refinement of our PvP strategy. All ideas and oppinions are accepted, and sought after. Please unleash the creativity of your mind in this thread.

Post in this thread so that we may discuss our PvP theories, because we all have some good ideas, and we need to get together and compromise and really think out our basic strategy before the event.

What we have spoken of so far:


We also need to work on PvP. I think out strategy was lacking as far as actual fighting. I got to play from both points of view - W/Mo and Mo/E. Playing as a monk, you get upset that enemy warriors charge past and attack you instantly. Makes sense from their point of view, but why wont our warriors pull back for protection? Instead of being able to heal my warriors, i have to heal myself. From a warrior point of view, I do admit I mostly attacked their weak casters (which must be done). I'm still thinking of a good balance. The Me/W is a wonderful caster killer, so maybe a couple of those, then say 3 warriors just to keep their warriors busy. Then an elly and 2 monks? thats 8, but im jsut thinking out loud before bed lol.


As far as the Battles go, you hit the issue head on. We cant focus purely on the offensive strategy, like what we used today. If all of the teams warriors are going after one target, that means all the other targets are open to go after all of us, diverting our attention greatly. I myself found it very hard to focus fire while a mountain of a warrior was dismembering me. And I wasnt even a healer. We have to have some kind of defense against that. Even if it becomes an actual defensive line with everyone aside from the caster seekers in their reach to protect.

It works too fold. I cant stand in the same spot and launch ranged attacks if a warrior is slashing at me. But that warrior isnt going to keep slashing on me if one of our wariors goes to town on him. The quick way to get an opponents direct attention is through assault. We have to keep that attention off of our monks and casters, as they are the guys healing and doing massive damage. With virtually all players, certainly warriors friend or foe, having Healing Hands on them, the Physical attacks arnt going to cut it on the other warriors. I think a strategy of holding out against the bulk of their force, and then allowing designated players to slay casters.

I know that monks are a lifeline, literally of any team. But there are ways of neutralizing them without using direct fire. I think we are going to have to utilize the spells/skills in the games that exploit this. Instead of focusing our attention on one monk, whom just gets healed by the other two, while the warriors chase after all of our 'soft' players...I propose we should opt for mana burning/dazed/condition spreading/DoT's etc. Things that counter effect the healing powers, airgo throwing an imbalance into the two teams and giving us the advantage.


Something that can be done vs. rushing chars, is spells that slows their movement. We could use something with slow + cold, if they stack, which makes them slow as hell, and then we just slaughter them with focused fire.


Argh, I typed a long reply but the forum ate it up. :rant:

Anyway, here's the cliffnotes version of a simple strat I was thinking up:
Party:
W/Mo
W/Me
W/E
W/?
W/?
Mo/?
Mo/? (maybe E/Me? Ah, but that's a different issue entirely)
E/Me (or Me/E, depends on the skillset. Focus is on hexes)

-One of the W/? protects one of the Mo/?
-E/Me is the glue that holds the strategy together. His job is to ensure the opponents have a tough time attacking our Monks, and support the W/?'s this way.
-W/Mo keeps an eye out for E/Me and ressurrects/heals if needed, but otherwise is a normal W.
-The rest of the Ws are free to engage however they like (should focus on ranged attackers/spellcasters targetting our Monks, though)

The problem I'm trying to solve through this strategy is the inabillity for the Monk to be able to heal people and survive at the same time. If they go too near to melee, they're automatically the hottest target. If they stray too far from the frontline, they're either picked off by ranged attackers or ambushed, and have no support.

This way, Monks can move where ever they're needed(to a certain degree), and still have a decent amount of support, so they can get their job done without being bothered too much by opponents. To prevent the plain Ws(who have no support duties, other than pitching in for the E/Me should he fall) from being overwhelmed, however, the W/?s should stay a quick distance away from the frontline, so as to be able to provide support for the Mo/? he's assigned to, but at the same time pitch in the frontline.

The Achillies'(hope I spelled that right ) heel of this strat is the vulnerabillity of the E/Me. Aside from a little support from the Mo/W, he's pretty much on his own. This could be patched up if pets could be given commands like "Guard Player", but that isn't available. :/

Just my 2 cents. Please don't rip this strat apart overmuch. :teeth: :lol:

Anyway, dwelling on it a bit more, the W/? Monk supporters probably aren't the best class for the job, as they can't respond well to ranged attacks. Ideas?


hmm that IS a lot of warriors, however if we use their secondary professions wisely, I think it could work. it all depends on skills. That is incorporated with what Tsume said. It will take some thought.


i think you are suggesting way too many warriors, 3 would be enough. The big flaw of having so many warriors is an elementalist will rip more than half the team apart already, not to mention the monk will have trouble healing them, unless they have heal party, but they have to worry about themselves as well where no one is in the back "protecting" them.
Other classes are also extremely valuable, and they are somewhat those that will be in the back protecting each other. Usually its 2-3 warriors going for the monk or a caster, it might not have worked for us too well but Ive seen it work very well on certain opponents ive faced. 2-3 warriors (including myself) were after a monk and he would not simply die. thats already 3/8 chars being "taking" care of. The monk would have healing hands on him, so he would heal everytime we would attack, another monk was casting heals and reversal of fortune. The monk which was tanking was casting healing breeze at half bar. Keep in mind those monks also had time to heal their teammates. So that was a huge issue. 3 of 8 was stalled while attacking 1 enemy and he was still able to heal others.

What made things worse since we were teaming up on the monk, the usual elementalist would be backing up the monk by casting AoE damage, somewhat getting free hits while attacking 3 at once! thus causing our ally monks to worry even more. Now imagine 2 elementalists taking care of those 3 warriors, i dont know about you guys, but elementalists hurt really bad, especially burns. if they take out the 3 tanks, casters become vulnerable and thus, its almost over.

In our guild battle, it was pretty much the samething, except add a mesmer to make things even worse. they were taking out a warrior in matter of seconds while the monk we were attacking simply wouldnt die.

Their strategy worked a bit different though, we approached the casters too soon so the enemy warriors went to back up whoever we were attacking.

I still dont have the whole mechanics of PvP in mind yet, but i am just pointing out what i see and what i think.

undead's team build sounds like what i had in mind (except i only pointed out the primary classes and i didnt have a ranger in there :O)


W/Mo
W/Mo
W/N
Mo/Me
Mo/R
Me/N
R/Me
E/R


i like it very much actually. 2 warriors that wont be requiring much healing if he is attacked by physical attacks, can heal his warrior teammate, etc. This is what was happening in yesterday's match. Happy was casting healing breeze on both of us and we were able to survive pretty long. Now imagine if i also had healing breeze. healing breeze + healing hands = nice. Now if you slap a mending on a warrior, 2 monks on 2 warriors, now you wont need to worry too much about them.

warrior / necro, wow i had a lot of fun with mine especially when i was the one being tanked. The premade had a life syphon (sp?) which would give me 2 arrows of regen and the opponent 2 negative arrows of regen which would cut a bit of his/her healing. then i have that skill which i forgot its name where it passes a condition to an enemy. Wow, that was extremely useful. I like to add some builds to undead's strategy. The classes seems like a good basis.

that premade build had exactly what i envisioned in my current warrior, but more!
Berserker Stance: For 5-10 seconds, you attack 33% faster than normal and gain 50% more adrenaline each time you hit in melee. Berserker Stance ends if you use a skill.

Devastating Hammer: If Devastating Hammer hits, your target is knocked down and suffers from weakness for 5-17 seconds. This is an elite skill.

Heavy Blow: Lose all adrenaline. If this attack hits a foe suffering from weakness, that foe is knocked down and you strike for 1-24 more damage.

Crushing Blow: If this attack hits, you strike for 1-16 more damage. If you hit a knocked-down enemy, you inflict a deep wound, lowering your target's maximum health by 20% for 5-17 seconds.

this is how i would be attacking, in the same order. I would cast zerk stance, attacking 33% faster normally, gaining adrenaline. then once devasting hammer was ready, i would use it. if hits, opponent gets knocked down, damaged and suffers from weakness. and the fact it hits, heavy blow gets exactly enough adrenaline to activate, so i use it. opponent gets knocked down and damaged again. right away i would use crushing blow as the person is on the floor, now opponent takes damage and suffers from deep wounds (20% max hp is taking off, acts like death penalty). it doesnt really do 20% max hp damage, but lowers the cap which i find very useful especially if its someone who keeps getting continuously healed. Now add the fact that you are doing this to any caster, he/she gets knocked down twice cancelling everytime he/she is casting something, wow, amazing.

Now imagine 2 warriors knocking he/she down while the third warrior is a sword build giving bleeding condition. The one getting pummeled i think wouldnt be able to endure much of it. If 2 casters are next to each other, maybe its even possible to take them out simultaneously, cutting off 2 sources of damage and heal. I havent really got a chance to look at axes, so i cant much in that department.

so... 3 warriors, 2 x W/Mo and W/N. 2 hammers, 1 sword.
the monks, well healing :O, healing breeze, shielding hands, heal party, mending, Restore Life, next 3, not sure.

mesmer: ill let tsume or someone who is experienced with mesmer to suggest something. as long as its something keeps the opponent messed up without continuously focusing on him/her, the interrupts are also very nice, especially if you put it on an elementalist or monk. I mean they usually heal themselves thoroughly when they're near death, so if you can counter that, its a done deal.

ranger: i have no experience with rangers, so i dont know.

elementalist: i personally rather have 2 ellies instead of a ranger and elly, but i may change my mind, i dont know. both fire base or 1 fire and 1 earth based. fire base has crazy AoE, earth has nice buffs and has the ability to knock down people in an AoE skill as well. very useful. secondary class: i dont know.


wow another long post. =/
i think this should have been posted in the strat guide.


The two Guilds we faced varied slighlty. One relied on warriors to chase after casters and slay them. The warriors would often split their attacks on every caster, and then all but one warrior would run to one non warrior target and slay them while the other went back and forth between the remaining casters. The rest of the opposing team seemed to focus on our three warriors whom were going after their one monk. Sometimes their strat varied slighlty depending on who we were attacking, but basically the warriors were molesting our casters while we were bieng tanked.

The second team used a more defensive strategy. Ther warriors werent the problem...their lethal mesmer and strong ranged attacks were. As a backline caster I was never even attacked by their warriors, it seemed that they only engaged whomever was attacking one of their team mates. But their mesmer drained my mana constantly. I dont know if any of the other casters were being targeted with that but I was able to get off very limited shots because I seemed to get my energy stolen everytime that mesmer was around. She positioned herself directly in the middle of combat in most the situations...she was never behind the line, off to the side, but rather in the center of everything. She was the staple of that team IMO. We were able to finally slay one of their monks whom strayed too far from the team and they retreated breifly. Well as Kaz pointed out, they probably "wanted to see how high their morale could go". I liked our second opponents more as they seemed more balanced, and less Warrior oriented. For the first team the offensive warrior strategy mowed us down, as they had superior warror numbers to us. In that situation we probably shouldve pulled back and had our warriors play as defense to the rest of the team. In the second situation we were more evenly matched aside from that Mesmer. Those DoT's ate through all of us.

In both cases the teams had the morale boost. Their are two things we can do to counter this. One is to try and run to the watchtowers first, in which a battle will most likely ensue. The second is to immediatly run out our second entrance up to their other entrance (the none morale boost watchtower route) and commence an assault. They would either run forth into ours and do the same after they got the notice that they were under attack, or they would run back to oppose us. We could have one player that stayed behind with the flag...hidden up on the top of the ramp by where the enemies come in, whom slipped by them up the route they came and then planted the flag in the slot. This would make them think "my god how did they get behind us", and may even divert their attention back to the watchtowers to retake it. From then on it would be a race to either get to the Guild Lord first or for the other team to get back to their castle to defend it. It is a plan that leaves us completly vulnerable at home, but them as well. Both times we played the defenders...we couldnt take down those teams but we couldve mowed through what little resistance thier fortress offered and slain their Guild Lord. The non watchtower entrances are entrances slightly closer to the steps leading to the Guild Lord if my memory serves.

~Kazama Fury~
06-12-2004, 18:26
we can also add this to your strategy. have someone stay behind with the flag and "override" his flag with ours. i assume theres only 1 flag stand. now if they are running back to their guild hall, we can be taking advantage of the morale boosts and they will be cut off of it, they will have to go back or accept we get the boosts.

i just added that in that thread, i had to before my memory failed me.

Xircon
06-12-2004, 19:59
I will leave this up to others. As I said, that is not something I am good at doing. Tell me what to do, and I can do it though. Great work Tsume, hope you guys can develop something good.

~Kazama Fury~
06-12-2004, 20:41
If only there was some places where you can battle with guild members inclusively. As for practice and such. =/

Hopefully they'll be adding something like that in the next push? but most likely they wont i assume.

UndeadBehlial
06-12-2004, 22:12
As I've said, i'm a big believer in TeamSpeak (TS) ATM. I started this weekend making a premade char, and went to a tomb run. We had 8 people and 4 were from 1 clan, and they were being slow cause they were setting up TS (frankly I was getting upset that they were not entering because of setting it up). I soon realized its value. Every game I played with them (3? runs in total) they had 4-5 rifts just in the beginning. That morale boost helps a lot (life moreso than mana). They're members were always saving my butt as a caster as well, as if they were always aware of what was going on. I think if we use it well (I still have a feeling of not wanting it to be 8 people yelling at once) we will play better.

As a monk, i continually just stood there while a warrior beat on me. If you know what i'm talking about, there's always that idealistic warrior(s) who plow thru the lines and to the monks thinking "Im a huge warrior, he's just a monk." 1:1 I can tank a warrior all day, however as a healer its so SO frustrating knowing my friends are in need of healing, but if i stop healing myself i'll die. This is why I think its important to protect casters (of course) but we cant play all defensive.

What about this (for tombs):

2x Rangers (R/Me, R/W)
(use these two to be almost identical builds. Should mainly be for anti-casting using Savage/Concussion shots and such. Pin down as well. We need 2 to maintain casting on lock down)

2x monks (we all agree 2 is the minimum) I liked how they had Mo/E. The only E spell was a glyph of lesser energy, so all focus was on healing.

3x warrior: W/Mo, W/Mo, W/N
(3 to distract their forces, anything less is too weak. W/Mo heal themselves, W/N can drain n gain off casters)

1x Me/W (This is a sweet caster killer. I played with this guy, hes insane.)

Tsume
06-12-2004, 22:28
If someone is too lazy to read through the colaboration of ideas and posts at the beginnning of the thread, our most apparant problem thus far is balancing our protection of casters/monks and maintaining warrior tankage. This is the current issue we are trying to resolve. Previously we have depended on the warrior as the staple of our strategies. It was allways the warrior whom we designated caller, whom all rushed to one target, whom we tried to overpower a foe with. And it seemed that our initial ideas would work, but they didnt. So what we are in the process of doing now, is balancing our offensive/defensive style, and trying to pump out a well rounded team, builds devoted to this team, etc. Even if you have an idea about a build that could be useful, go ahead post it here. You may be right, it may be useful and we may find use for it in a strategy.

Again previously what our strategies seemed to focus around were the warriors, and supporting them with focused fire, healing, etc. This seemed to be what the first guild team we fought also did but they were much more effective at it, and were mostly warriors. The second team approached it entirely differently.

I want to approach a strategy for the warriors I'm going to call, "maintaining". By this the warriors would serve as both guard dogs and tanks. They will engage seperate warriors on the other team, and and if the opposing team has less warriors than we do, we can double up on one of them, or molest their casters with the spare warior. If they have more than we do, one or more of our warriors must be prepared to break away from their current target and fall back to one that was attacking one of our "softer" players. (I'm going to start using soft, for non warriors primaries, or characters without extreme health boosting spells that are susceptible to physical damage). This would be maybe three warriors, I would say one W/N, two W/Mo to serve this purpose. The rest of the team I am having trouble coming up with at this point. We want curses/DoT and some nice high damage spells. From these Guild Battles the AoE just didnt seem to work as well as well. Even on the ones we had in one spot they were being healed to fast by their compadres. Thats why I suggest dividing our warriors attention to expand their healing focus. This would also expand ours though. We should have more buffs, and buff shattering to achieve this. I have been thinking also of the usefulness of a Mesmer/Monk devoted almost entirely to healing and energy stealing/burning. Throw in a Mesmer spell that cuts down casting times, and you could have Healing Breeze everywhere, and maintain your energy flow with constant stealing, also enabling you to cast Mending without worry. This could be a very effective healer to try out. Monk/Mesmer would be more benificial in that stance, sorry for putting Mesmer first...but...you know me and Mesmers. :teeth:

Right now my mind is racing at 100 thoughts a second, and I have a killer headache. I'll check back on this more, everyone throw what you have onto the table.

Tsume
06-12-2004, 22:33
It seems both Undead and I agree that three warriors, 2 of them W/Mo and one W/N would be a good number for a team.

Undead did the people in those groups use Warriors as their offense and support them, or were the warriors more of a balance in suport/tanking/'maintaining'.?

UndeadBehlial
07-12-2004, 01:10
It seems both Undead and I agree that three warriors, 2 of them W/Mo and one W/N would be a good number for a team.

Undead did the people in those groups use Warriors as their offense and support them, or were the warriors more of a balance in suport/tanking/'maintaining'.?
hmm im thinking. I don't remember the exact layout of the group, but we basically split thr group in half, and 4-5 of them seemed to be able to just devastate rifts one after the other. Rifts are hard casters though, so a mesmer can probably be a huge help in taking them down (backfire). In a group of 8, 3 should defend the gate, and 5 should go after rifts (staying as a group. 1 rift at a time.) In my idea of a group being R/Me, R/W, Me/W, W/Mo, W/Mo, W/N, Mo/?, Mo/?, I think I could get a good group separation. Guarding the door should be a monk, one warrior, and the R/W. This will get efficient kills at the door, and leave rifts in a world of hurt by who is left.

I have noticed when going after rifts, people seem to either do well or get obliterated instantly. Rifts have some good AoE spells that do a lot of damage if you're all clustered (though in melee its hard to not be).

Share
07-12-2004, 01:15
Who says that warriors are necessarily required? I saw some guy talking about a very good team with like 3* R/Me, 3* Mo/x and Ele/Mo and other stuff.

Tsume
07-12-2004, 03:37
You are right Share, Warriors are not neccesarily required. I have listened to rumors of certain high ranking guilds, that have very little mellee attributes on their teams. And from our experience this weekend we know that one monk can tank multiple warriors if he is backed up by the other monks. This is why our focused fire wasnt working. What we probably shouldve done in our matches is molest and go after the other monks, which wouldve given the monk our guys were going after less support and ultimatley he wouldve died. Ofcourse we wouldve all died trying to do that. :/.

This has the potential to get extremly complicated. We are going to have to develop strategies on the fly and remember them. No two guilds we face will be the same, so there is not one single strategy we are looking for. What we need is a well formed idea and basic build setup we can come up with. We have to rake our minds and think of any builds that can be thrown at us, and how this team can counter them. That is assuming we are wanting a well rounded team who focuses on versatility able to handle different situations. As proven by our previous two battles, simply going after the monks...just wasnt working. What I think is wise is to come up with the counter of any situation. Ahhh. Head hurts. Be back tommorrow.

Naliworld
07-12-2004, 05:43
I have been thinking also of the usefulness of a Mesmer/Monk devoted almost entirely to healing and energy stealing/burning. Throw in a Mesmer spell that cuts down casting times, and you could have Healing Breeze everywhere, and maintain your energy flow with constant stealing, also enabling you to cast Mending without worry. This could be a very effective healer to try out. Monk/Mesmer would be more benificial in that stance, sorry for putting Mesmer first...but...you know me and Mesmers. :teeth:

IMO the Mo/Me isn't quite as powerful as you make it out to be. I played one for most of the event, and only mana stealing spell(actually, the only Mesmer skill) they have is "Channelling", a pretty miserable spell that steals 1 mana from each nearby enemy when you cast a spell. You'd be lucky to get around 3 enemies in nearby proximity. Any less, the spell is useless. Any more, you'll be mobbed. Now that I think about it, I should've refunded my Inspiration magic points and increased my healing abilities a tad.

Now, a Me/Mo sounds interesting as a backup healer incase one of the primary Monks bites the dust, and the warriors are being overwhelmed. Wonder what's the skill combination, though...

Some pretty great ideas you guys are coming up with...I'm going to mull over them...

~Kazama Fury~
07-12-2004, 09:31
It seems both Undead and I agree that three warriors, 2 of them W/Mo and one W/N would be a good number for a team.

... i wrote a huge post explaining why they are good too, especially bringing up what kind of builds they should be which compliments their classes. in fact... you quoted it.

=/


ill be commenting on these soon, just now it seems no one has actually read them.

UndeadBehlial
07-12-2004, 13:41
yeah i try and keep all these posts short, even I have trouble reading Tsume's 5 paragraph beasts :)

As far as warriors not required, that would take some thought. i'll briefly touch on this. Ok, so we want a team of no warriors (well, primary warriors). However, ruthless warriors will be on other teams and surging into us all. How can we effictively counter warriors? Slow comes to mind, as do wards. Ward against melee (50% chance melee attacks will miss)is amazing, and ward against foes (50% slowing effect) is also good. If we can get a group of non warriors all in wards, I think this could be very effective. To keep wards up all over as safe zones, E or X/E should be popular in this group. Anyone who tries to get close will have tons of trouble, especially if also pinned down. As far as ranger goes, Barbed Trap and Spiked Trap in the wards would help greatly. Think what combinations could slow the heck out of people, meantime we get a group of caster killers taking out their casters.

My Ideas for Characters:
Mo/E - Main Healer (Alternate skill to Healing Prayers can be Wards)
Mo/E - Main Healer (Alternate skill to Healing Prayers can be Wards)
Me/W - Caster Killer (requires healing support...)
Me/W - Caster Killer (requires healing support...)
E/R - AoE for all the ward areas
E/Mo - Wards
R/Mo - Trapper
R/Me - Pin Downer


This is just something i'm thinking about before class. wacha think?

Share
07-12-2004, 15:38
yeah i try and keep all these posts short, even I have trouble reading Tsume's 5 paragraph beasts :)

As far as warriors not required, that would take some thought. i'll briefly touch on this. Ok, so we want a team of no warriors (well, primary warriors). However, ruthless warriors will be on other teams and surging into us all. How can we effictively counter warriors? Slow comes to mind, as do wards. Ward against melee (50% chance melee attacks will miss)is amazing, and ward against foes (50% slowing effect) is also good. If we can get a group of non warriors all in wards, I think this could be very effective. To keep wards up all over as safe zones, E or X/E should be popular in this group. Anyone who tries to get close will have tons of trouble, especially if also pinned down. As far as ranger goes, Barbed Trap and Spiked Trap in the wards would help greatly. Think what combinations could slow the heck out of people, meantime we get a group of caster killers taking out their casters.

My Ideas for Characters:
Mo/E - Main Healer (Alternate skill to Healing Prayers can be Wards)
Mo/E - Main Healer (Alternate skill to Healing Prayers can be Wards)
Me/W - Caster Killer (requires healing support...)
Me/W - Caster Killer (requires healing support...)
E/R - AoE for all the ward areas
E/Mo - Wards
R/Mo - Trapper
R/Me - Pin Downer


This is just something i'm thinking about before class. wacha think?

Yeah, that's similar to what I referred to. Would be interesting to test out a setup like that and see how it works.

However, your motivation for Mo/E as primary healing? I'd say Ele/Mo is better since Ele has more than double the MP Mo's do. Can't see any advantage bring primary monk.

Also, Ele has some elemental armors which are quite effective, even though they slow you down. Maybe you don't have to move very much if you can take more hits and at the same time get healed or so.

Regarding wards as you mentioned, yeah it would be good, they also got a ward which protecs everyone in a certain radius against elemental damage, which could be useful too.

UndeadBehlial
07-12-2004, 18:15
Yeah, that's similar to what I referred to. Would be interesting to test out a setup like that and see how it works.

However, your motivation for Mo/E as primary healing? I'd say Ele/Mo is better since Ele has more than double the MP Mo's do. Can't see any advantage bring primary monk.

Also, Ele has some elemental armors which are quite effective, even though they slow you down. Maybe you don't have to move very much if you can take more hits and at the same time get healed or so.

Regarding wards as you mentioned, yeah it would be good, they also got a ward which protecs everyone in a certain radius against elemental damage, which could be useful too.
right, i looked into the elemental ward, meh, didnt look that good to me. Also I was just Mo/E because thats what I was for the weekend. Do Elly's really have twice as much energy? I've never played one, but wow thats a lot considering they're both casters. Isnt the primary thing category for Monks smiting prayers or something anyway? haha

1SG Bowie
07-12-2004, 20:01
Divine Favor is the primary set of skills for a monk. Most of the spells are not all that useful under most conditions but, a few seem to be rather nice.

Beowulf
07-12-2004, 21:05
The strats are looking interesting....though it might not be smart to let the whole world know them by posting them here!!! lol :xmad: Anyways I have no problem with being a monk/elemental and staying back to heal....

UndeadBehlial
07-12-2004, 21:20
The strats are looking interesting....though it might not be smart to let the whole world know them by posting them here!!! lol :xmad: Anyways I have no problem with being a monk/elemental and staying back to heal....
Yeah Beo, thats what stinks. This is a public forum :-/ I have a GREAT idea for a E/Mo (which i've decided is better than Mo/E thanks to Share :) ) build, but I really don't want to say it on here. Let me just say, sexi.

Xircon what are the odds of getting this to be a members only forum like the mods have? Probably not great eh?

Naliworld
08-12-2004, 03:49
Yeah Beo, thats what stinks. This is a public forum :-/ I have a GREAT idea for a E/Mo (which i've decided is better than Mo/E thanks to Share :) ) build, but I really don't want to say it on here. Let me just say, sexi.

Xircon what are the odds of getting this to be a members only forum like the mods have? Probably not great eh?

Better yet, why not make a Clan Honor style sub-forum(passworded of course), but leaving the main forum(this one) open? It may get a bit lonely if there's only us in here....

On Strats: I have this nagging suspicious that at the next beta event ANet is going to introduce primary Necro premades which would undermine all our strats. :/

Zero
08-12-2004, 12:29
The passwording seems a great idea and the non-warrior strat seems interesting, i think it'd give us a bit of an advantage cause most guilds will probably be expecting warriors to rush into them.
My main chars over the weekends have been R/ME aimed at pinning down the enemy and silencing but casters and with the right support they work great. I also played a trapper for a day last weekend. Worked well in defending ares but wasn't much use when attacked. Then again it was a pre-made trapper and the other half wasn't monk. Having the other half as monk would make the char alot more useful and interesting to play.
So great ideas and if we haven't got enough people i'd be willing to play either the trapper or R/ME if needed.

1SG Bowie
08-12-2004, 12:44
For the final game I have been thinking of the possibility of making a decoy. A primary monk designed to draw fire away from the monk healers and, surviving as long as possible.

I am not all that good at PvP and, I donít tend to do well with traditional builds but, perhaps this is something I could make to help the party.

UndeadBehlial
08-12-2004, 16:07
For the final game I have been thinking of the possibility of making a decoy. A primary monk designed to draw fire away from the monk healers and, surviving as long as possible.

I am not all that good at PvP and, I donít tend to do well with traditional builds but, perhaps this is something I could make to help the party.
Bowie, that sounds hilarious lol. However, what makes the monk decoy better than a normal monk? With my E/Mo, i'm a full healer and can already tank. To geta decoy on a team of only 8, you'd have to do some good convincing to me that you'd worth the weight. Interesting to see if you come up with anything though.

UndeadBehlial
08-12-2004, 16:14
Ok guys, Tsume and I had an AIM convo which was actually very beneficial I thought in being sweet with this strategizing. We both came to a conclusion though, and I think I speak for him as well on this.

He and I have devoted a fair amount of time to working on PvP strategizing. Finding the right mixes of classes, things that seem great to test out. However, this last beta weekend brought something again to our attention: People won't play characters.

What do I mean by this? I mean there are premade characters, and I'll say "ok guys, we have 7 W/Mo and i'm the only monk. we need a bit more diversity here." And I'm met with "W/Mo is all i've played..." Therefore we are forced to sacrifice entire professions because people are unfamiliar with classes and skills. Since I've been castrated from the guild due to hacking or some heinous crime against humanity, I don't think i'll be in the next beta. However please please please do me a favor. Do the guild a favor since i'm not the most popular guy. If they have premade characters again, USE THEM. Get familiar with the builds. go to gwonline.net when you're bored and look at some skills you think are sweet, maybe make a build! However we need diversity in our guild. People need to be warriors jsut as much as they need to be casters. If people do not familiarize themselves with anything but one class, not only is all my and tsume's work in vain (along with everyone else who contributes), but we WILL FAIL as having any chance to be a decent guild on the ladder.

Tsume
08-12-2004, 16:47
I dont have much time, and I'll be home soon to give more insight, but I wanted to say that Undead is right. I understand not everyone likes playing certain characters, I myself do not prefer warriors. The problem lies in that many people have a distaste for certain professions and this leads to them having a bias of it. Bias is just a short road to ignorance and ignorance is something we cannot afford to possess. It is ok to be less informed than others in certain areas, but it is imperative that we all familiarize ourselves with each of the characters so that we may be able to better anticipate what can be thrown at us, and how skills/spells can work together.

Ok guys...I wish I could elaborate more but I have to go. I'll be back later.

So far a lot of people have focused on the power of a certain build, and then use that power to aid their team.

Clash
08-12-2004, 19:45
I understand not everyone likes playing certain characters, I myself do not prefer warriors. The problem lies in that many people have a distaste for certain professions and this leads to them having a bias of it. Bias is just a short road to ignorance and ignorance is something we cannot afford to possess. It is ok to be less informed than others in certain areas, but it is imperative that we all familiarize ourselves with each of the characters so that we may be able to better anticipate what can be thrown at us, and how skills/spells can work together.


However, this last beta weekend brought something again to our attention: People won't play characters.

What do I mean by this? I mean there are premade characters, and I'll say "ok guys, we have 7 W/Mo and i'm the only monk. we need a bit more diversity here." And I'm met with "W/Mo is all i've played..." Therefore we are forced to sacrifice entire professions because people are unfamiliar with classes and skills...If they have premade characters again, USE THEM.

I've said before that I'm not really that into the PvP side of the game, but this weekend changed that. It was a lot more fun being on a few teams that actually knew what they were doing & worked together! Now I just have to work on my own skills... Anyway, I tried out most of the premade builds and I learned two very important things: 1) I'm only good at playing warriors, monks and mesmers. 2) Fear the Koreans. (No offense meant! It's a compliment, in fact. Why is it that every player I've seen from a certain country happens to dominate every match they're in?? We must discover their secret!!). There were only a couple Necro builds in the beta, and neither of them were something I'd put together, so I don't think I got a full appraisal of that class. I fully intend to try out any other premades they throw at us.

Here's a couple interesting things I saw in PvP this past weekend:

When I was trying out the offensive monk build (don't remember the name, but it was the one with the Bane & Judgement signet rings), I was on a team with a memorable moron who couldn't believe I was an offensive monk. "WTF why aren't you healing more?" I tried to explain it was a build the developers came up with and I just wanted to try something new, and he replied "OMG this is why we lose," and called me a "noob." I love it when I'm called a noob in a game that isn't even out yet. And right after he said that, he proceeded to run straight at the entire opposing team, leaving his teammates in the dust. Yeah, it was the monk's fault.

The most impressive thing I saw in PvP was one team that had four warriors (3 were the premade War/Monk, one was a sword/shield of some sort), two monks, a ranger and an elementalist. Nothing special about them at first, but as soon as the match started, I knew they'd be trouble. Instead of going for our monk first, they singled out one warrior (me) who had hung back to protect the monk. All four warriors attacked at once while the ranger shot at the monk behind me. I don't even know what the rest of their team was doing, but they must have been keeping my teammates busy somehow. I was wiped out in a matter of seconds. Our monk ran away from the attackers, but he didn't get far. I think that match lasted close to a minute even. Granted, the team I was on was the type that scatters all over the map when it starts, but still, it's amazing what a little teamwork can do.

So my point is...what was my point again? Oh yeah, my point is, everyone should try out all of the classes at least once. Just because you don't plan to play that class forever doesn't mean you can't try out some of their skills, and more importantly, figure how they "work" so you can possibly come up with ideas on how to defeat them.

Hunt3r_kill4
08-12-2004, 20:30
I find the lack of mention to Meteor showers or Firestorms disturbing

these massive area spells cause havoc and totally destroy casters, for they have to abandon their formations to dodge this attack, or they eat 50+ damage from the firestorm alone. Although this has a long cool down time, it is very good for breaking enemy ranks.

UndeadBehlial
08-12-2004, 20:48
Clash - even if you're only good at 3 classes, thats great! Think about the combinations of mixing and matching primary and secondary. Each account can have 4 characters, and i'd like everyone to have diverse characters so that any of their 4 are just as strong as the other 3.

Hunter - I really havent played an elementalist. Meteor seems like a good skill, but where are you getting 50 damage for firestorm? I thought it maxed at 27ish?

Tsume
12-12-2004, 17:49
Oh man I'm angry. I dunno whatsup with the forums, but if they make one more of my posts not go through. Ok...well....basically my long butt post I had is gone, as well as my suggestion and build setup I had planned. I'm real furious right now, so I'm gonna go do something else and get off of these forums. There is still somethign that was in my post, I wanted all of you to view though, here it is. It is Fiannas previous battle strategy, you'll notice they focused on AoE and keeping people in it. I typically shy away from AoE, and have some thoughts on a Hexing oriented setup. ...cant believe that post is gone.....



The November Beta Weekend Event (BWE/Nov) saw the introduction of the first Guild Wars ladder. This ladder included win-loss records from the previous Halloween World Preview Event (WPE). The Fianna went into BWE/Nov without a ladder record - the guild focussed on Tournament play in Tombs for WPE and was recreated between the two weekends to solve problems with our guild cape design - and it was decided that for BWE/Nov, with a ladder in place, the guild would focus on ladder. Below is a brief article written by Adam outlining what Fianna did that weekend.



In the first Beta Weekend Event, The Fianna achieved a 47-0 win-loss record and took #1 on the ladder. It was not a mature ladder; a good amount of teams were using Henchmen as fillers, not all things were equal, but that is all off-topic. This isn't an article about the merits of achievement itself, but about how it was done. We received many questions afterwards, and I'll try to answer them all here.

To start off, here is the character setup we were using:



1 El/Mo Healer - Infuse, Heal Other, Orison, Heal Area, Healing Breeze, Healing Hands, Deep Freeze, Ether Prodigy.
1 El/Mo Healer/Nuker - Infuse, Heal Other, Orison, Healing Breeze, Healing Hands, Searing Heat, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Ether Prodigy.
1 El/Wa Burninator - Phoenix, Fire Storm, Searing, Rodgort's Invocation, Glyph of lesser Energy, Ward Melee, Ward Foes, Ether Prodigy.
1 El/Mes Earth Nuker - Earthquake, Wastrel's Worry, Energy Burn, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Ether Prodigy, Armor of Earth, Shatter Hex, Eruption.
2 Wa/Mos - Restore Life, various Warrior skills.
1 Mes/Nec - Wastrel's Worry, Backfire, Crippling Anguish, Illusion of Haste, Rend Enchantments, Faintheartedness, Shadow of Fear, Enfeebling Blood.
1 Mes/Mo - Wastrel's Worry, Backfire, Shield of Healing, Shatter Enchantment, Power Drain, Reversal of Fortune, Cry of Frustration.


This is not the exact setup we were using each and every game, because of different people having different skills and characters, but it is the main template. Just the skills and professions is all pretty basic info, and it is hard to read out the whole strategy from that alone, so here is what each character's roles were in more detail.



The Warriors.

One hammer-user and one axe-user. The reason they were both Warrior/Monk is not, as some might think, mainly because of healing spells or Enchantments, but for the Resurrection factor. Having a Warrior handle ressing takes important pressure off the healers. It's also beneficial because a Warrior can survive the long cast time more effectively. Putting all the ressing on healers is dangerous because those are often the first target of enemy focus-fire, and a Warrior has a greater chance of getting out alive if the team gets annihilated.

Other than generally dealing damage to the target we focus as a team, the Warriors' jobs also include sprinting home to fetch flags or Guild Thieves, and the hammer-user is in charge of knocking down, and thus stopping, enemy flag-runners.


The Elementalists.

One Earth-Elementalist, one Fire-Elementalist. Both mainly focused on ranged AoE-spells. In addition to these, the healers carried Searing Heat or Deep Freeze for situational use when not healing. These characters were the main source of our damage. We started out each battle by waiting for the opposing team to make the first move, and come at us grouped up as tightly as we could make them. When the time was right, the target caller would pick a target close to the center of the group, and we would hit that player with 2 copies of Searing Heat and Deep Freeze. By the time they figured they had to run, they were hit with Earthquake to knock them down and keep them inside the damage-area of Searing Heat. Usually, this killed 2-3 enemies right away and left the majority of the others so low on health that they were easy to mop up. After the initial blast, healers commenced healing and the damage-casters used Eruption and Rodgort's Invocation where it was the most suitable.


The Healers.

Using the energy-enhancing powers of Energy Storage and Ether Prodigy, these Elementalist/Monks could squeeze out a lot more healing over time than a primary Monk.


The support.

One Mes/Nec and one Mes/Mo. The Mes/Nec used the triple combo of Enfeebling Blood+Shadow of Fear+Faintheartedness to shut down the damage of enemy melee characters, especially ones who congregated in one place. He also helped the target-killing by taking the Enchantments off the target with Rend Enchantments and slowing him down with Crippling Anguish, as well as adding miscellaneous damage and anticaster power to the build with Wastrel's Worry and Backfire.

The Mes/Mo was the main anticaster with interruptions, Shatters and Backfire. He also doubled as a Protection healer, casting Shield of Healing and Reversal of Fortune on the target the opponents focused.


With this setup, everyone had a pretty clear primary job, and each character's main weaknesses were covered by the strengths of others. The real strength of the build, however, was the confusion factor. As a monk on a team facing this setup, you were stuck in a catch 22. When the Area Effect combo hit, four or more of your team members suddenly took tons of damage, including yourself. So what do you do? If you decide to stay and try to keep the team alive, you burn in the Searing Heat and Eruption. If you run to save yourself, chances are you'll be knocked down by Quake or a Warrior. If you stand still and concentrate on healing yourself, you'll most likely find yourself in a situation where you have no team to support very soon.

The right answer to this strategy is prevention. If you bring enough good Mesmers and Rangers to stop the AoE-nuke from happening, you've taken out the key factor on which the strategy relies. That's how the Nerf Herders, led by Iziuh from LotD, gave us our first GvG loss since the implementation of the ladder. They brought a build with 4 Warriors, 2 anticasters, 1 buffer/debuffer and 1 healer, where the Warriors doubled as part-time healers. The whole build was focused heavily on anti-caster power and prevention, which had us running in the first 5 minutes because we couldn't fire off our damage combinations.

Keep in mind that this is all old information by now, when the second Beta Weekend Event has already commenced. Strategies have evolved, skills have changed and balance has shifted in the past month. We look forward to seeing you on the battlefield over the weekend!


- Written by Adam, nominal leader of The Fianna.

UndeadBehlial
12-12-2004, 22:43
hehe, yeah that happens a lot on the forums to me. What i do is, I write everything, then Ctrl+C so if it doesnt go thru I have it copied. Team looks sweet though. Nice diversity.

HappyPants
12-12-2004, 23:17
For the final game I have been thinking of the possibility of making a decoy. A primary monk designed to draw fire away from the monk healers and, surviving as long as possible.

I am not all that good at PvP and, I donít tend to do well with traditional builds but, perhaps this is something I could make to help the party.

There is somewhat of a truth to this statement. You can build a monk that fights rather then heals. When people see a monk, they think healing, so in pvp monks are usually targeted first. So then they would be attacking the monk who is actually a fighter and leaving the real healers alone. Over time though I think people are going to realize that a E/Mo is a better healer then a Mo/Whatever, so people would target those if people have them on a team rather then a Mo/Whatever.

Tsume
12-12-2004, 23:44
Now Happy, I'm surprised that you would just say an Ele/Monk is better than Monk primary. That is a valid oppinion, but considering that the spell lists are changing constantly, and the monk profession was recently given some highly increased recharge times on spells you might have to rethink the energy storage plan.

It may end up being more beneficial to have Divine Favor, especially if they move or add a few more healing spells to it....some of the spells in that tree are allready highly useable, just not a preference. A healer may have to end up being a monk primary to be extremely effective.

HappyPants
12-12-2004, 23:56
I don't keep up to date on that stuff. I just do what I say and think what I do, then do what I thought and say what I do. I'm like a dog on rabies, I have no reasoning. To bad we never made an attempt to get the top 5 on ladder. Next time we should make an attempt to use TeamSpeak. I think some people might have used but we need all people to use it to be effective. Not all people need to have mics, but at the very least they can listen in so not everything has to be typed.

UndeadBehlial
13-12-2004, 18:53
Next time we should make an attempt to use TeamSpeak. I think some people might have used but we need all people to use it to be effective. Not all people need to have mics, but at the very least they can listen in so not everything has to be typed.


i second that. people should look into it now, maybe organize a test to get it working so we dont rely on the next weekend until we try and use it.

EarthenSkye
14-12-2004, 01:21
Good idea, I know I for one last weekend was getting a bit overwhelmed trying to read the chat and fight off creatures at the same time.

UndeadBehlial
15-12-2004, 19:03
So funny thing. I was just replying to "What Classes?" and I thought about another post I made. This was the No-Warrior team build and I thought to myself "Wow it would be sweet to make a ton of builds that are wierd, such as Ward builds per my post." Then I realized that this ISNT Diablo and i cant completely finish my character in 2 hours, so what you make has to be good. Therefore if you haven't already, check out GWOnline.net before the actual game starts. Look at the skills.

Well ok maybe I thought it funny....

Beowulf
16-12-2004, 09:12
Are we looking to try something like the plan used by that guild? Who is going to play what? With the evolving skills I figured the more healing of primary monk would be a bigger benefit then the mana pool of primaty elementalist. Guess we shall find out Jan 8 is it?

UndeadBehlial
16-12-2004, 16:39
Are we looking to try something like the plan used by that guild? Who is going to play what? With the evolving skills I figured the more healing of primary monk would be a bigger benefit then the mana pool of primaty elementalist. Guess we shall find out Jan 8 is it?
Jan 7th actually is the next beta, however things can still change. Its going to take out of game research to see what changed (hopefully they have a final list of skills). When people like Tsume and I talk about strategy, keep in mind that it is from the most recent beta, and everything could change.

As far as assigning people certain characters to play, thats tough. I think it'd be great for people to get at least 2 wellmade and well equipped chars to allow for diversity and not necessarily a dependance on one person being there or not. Its a matter if finding people who are willing to use characters that are necessary, but may not be W/Mo ;)

Tsume
19-01-2005, 06:25
There is a guid up I encourage everyone to read through.

This previous event some of us didnt know much of what to do, and this guide is really less of a guide and more of an account of how a guild battle typically goes. You will note that we have never fought for posession of the watchtowers. Perhaps this has been our biggest error.

Guild Vs. Guild (http://www.gwonline.net/article.php?artid=73&action=part1)

Read it as it contains the basics of a GvG battle.

Clash
20-01-2005, 03:17
Originally Posted by 1SG Bowie
For the final game I have been thinking of the possibility of making a decoy. A primary monk designed to draw fire away from the monk healers and, surviving as long as possible.

I am not all that good at PvP and, I donít tend to do well with traditional builds but, perhaps this is something I could make to help the party.

There is somewhat of a truth to this statement. You can build a monk that fights rather then heals. When people see a monk, they think healing, so in pvp monks are usually targeted first. So then they would be attacking the monk who is actually a fighter and leaving the real healers alone. Over time though I think people are going to realize that a E/Mo is a better healer then a Mo/Whatever, so people would target those if people have them on a team rather then a Mo/Whatever.


I had the same idea for a decoy monk. It would have a pure healing spell such as Healing Breeze and a Resurrect skill, so they could still function somewhat like a traditional monk, but the rest of their skills would allow them to soak up damage and capitalize on the idea that many team strategies focus on attacking the monk first and killing him quickly. A decoy monk would then stray a little father away from the party than normal and either use spells and skills to withstand a beating and keep the enemy busy while the rest of the party accopmlishes critical goals (capturing flags or watchtowers, killing enemy monks, Ghostly Heroes, etc.), or lead the enemy team into ambushes.

Monk/Ranger - This version would use Flame Trap, Barbed Trap & possibly Dust Trap against any melee attackers that see the monk as an easy target. Dryder's Defenses, Storm Chaser and Troll Unguant would help the monk stay alive.

Example Build: 1 Flame Trap, 2 Barbed Trap, 3 Dryder's Defenses, 4 Troll Unguant, 5 Storm Chaser, 6 Mending, 7 Healing Breeze, 8 Resurrect

Monk/Mesmer - This version would use spells such as Spirit of Failure, Signet of Midnight, Spirit Shackles, Soothing Images, or Ineptitude to mess with melee attackers, and the combo of Ether Lord & Distortion, plus Ether Feast for survival. Migrane and/or the various energy stealing/spell-interrupting spells would help against spellcasters.

Example Build: 1 Healing Breeze, 2 Resurrect, 3 Ether Lord, 4 Distortion, 5 Spirit of Failure, 6 Spirit Shackles, 7 Soothing Images, 8 Migrane

-OR for a more "hit-and-run" build-

1 Healing Breeze, 2 Resurrect, 3 Signet of Midnight, 4 Ineptitude, 5 Sympathetic Visage, 6 Ether Feast, 7 Power Drain, 8 Cry of Frustration

Monk/Warrior - This version would use Tactics skills to increase survivability and a couple of Smiting Signets to make a quick getaway. Wielding a sword lets you use Hamstring to discourage pursuit, if you have time to use it. This build wouldn't have room for a traditional "Heal Other" spell, but the Signets and low-cost skills mean you could probably maintain a second Mending spell.

Example Build: 1 Hamstring, 2 Distracting Blow, 3 Defensive Stance, 4 Wary Stance, 5 Signet of Judgement, 6 Bane Signet, 7 Mending, 8 Resurrect