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sabotagex
13-01-2005, 07:55
What does everyone think about The monk class being limited to Primary only?

I personally would like to see more diversity in the character classes, instead of every warrior being W/MO, etc.... Also If monk was primary only then it would be easier to kill characters and you would not be stuck in these long PvP battles. (I had a battle in the gladiator arena that went over 30 min with no one dying, each team had 2 monks and the other classes had secondary monk. I though this was a bit out of hand.)

Make players easier to kill, even with support. This will make battles quicker. Everyone should remember a few beta's back when the warriors had insane STR based heals. Warriors were close to impossible to kill and it made battles go way too long. Take out spells like "Mark of Protection", and leave heals to direct spells. Make casting times on heals a bit longer. The insta heal spells have to go.

Just some Ideas, I got no complaints about this game. I am wondering what other people think about this.

DevilDog
13-01-2005, 08:00
I don't like the idea...

If everyone is a Warrior/Monk(and honestly, I don't think it's as bad as everyone made it out to be) then it's just that much easier to know how to kill them.

There is a primary attribute, that is more than enough for all the professions. None of them should be primary only, that would then take away the ability to plan diffirent profession combinations based on wether or not you're primary or secondary.

A secondary Monk although good, suffers greatly when it comes to the ability to heal.

I don't ever like to hear the word 'nerf' because that usually means somebody wants somebody else to be easier to kill. That's not balanced, that's the opposite of balanced.

Oh, and welcome to the forums! :)

SquidgY
13-01-2005, 08:45
Meh, all this does is make it obviously purposeful and acceptable that the Monk has too distinct a role, since none of the other classes can fill it.

Removing Monks > this suggestion in my eyes.

Though... making other classes have ally-support abilities, to help fill in the voids which only Monks can, is obviously > removing Monks.

Zypher Wynn
13-01-2005, 08:47
W/Mo have not been a problem for me to kill. Just add poison to my arrows, shoot them with pin down, cast conjure phantasm, and then pop some more arrows in them. They burn up their limited MP on healing themselves while dying faster than they can recoup.
No need to limit the monk profession to primary only. Just because a person has monk skills does not mean that they are harder to kill than any one else.

sabotagex
13-01-2005, 08:55
I don't like the idea...

If everyone is a Warrior/Monk(and honestly, I don't think it's as bad as everyone made it out to be) then it's just that much easier to know how to kill them.

There is a primary attribute, that is more than enough for all the professions. None of them should be primary only, that would then take away the ability to plan diffirent profession combinations based on wether or not you're primary or secondary.

A secondary Monk although good, suffers greatly when it comes to the ability to heal.

I don't ever like to hear the word 'nerf' because that usually means somebody wants somebody else to be easier to kill. That's not balanced, that's the opposite of balanced.

Oh, and welcome to the forums! :)


Yea I hear what your saying Devil, and in no way was I asking for a nerf. I was thinking if you kept monk to a primary class then it would decrease the number of healers on a field and make battles quicker.

If you fought any decient groups in GW you would have seen how battles can go on for close to an hour. I had a 4on4 group that went 1/2 an hour in one battle and only ended beacuse one of the other teams monks quit.

Secondary monk heals are a lot more powerful than you realize. My E/MO could keep my whole team alive if I just healed.

If a team has 2 expert monk healers and a bunch of monk secondarys, they can make battles go on forever.

I just wanted other peoples opinions on this and reading the other monk thread I figured instead of people nerfing the monk class, just make it primary only. Personally I would like to see that warriors couldn't be monk secondary to have more diversity in the class, instead of every warrior being W/MO like cookie cutters.

Next Beta look at the warrior classes, I would say over 90% is W/MO.

LordConan
13-01-2005, 10:04
W/Mo have not been a problem for me to kill. Just add poison to my arrows, shoot them with pin down, cast conjure phantasm, and then pop some more arrows in them. They burn up their limited MP on healing themselves while dying faster than they can recoup.
No need to limit the monk profession to primary only. Just because a person has monk skills does not mean that they are harder to kill than any one else.
I agree on that one, there are some char combinations which may be slightly harder to kill than others, but there is absolutely no such thing as invulnerable!

sabotagex I see that this 30 min match disturbes you, but if only your team have used apropriate skill you wouldn't have had any problems at all. Warriors could have used Jaw Breaker to stop monks from healing, then use knock down +hamstirng to take them down, and the monks in your team could have used degenration skills and/or Back Fire on the fiend monks.
First take out monks one by one then the W/Mo are no problem...

No monk-primary-only for me.

EDIT/ I think W/Mo is so popular cause they are so easy to play in PvE

Ryvaleus Stormchild
13-01-2005, 10:10
I don't think there's anything wrong with the monk or W/Mo's. Soon enough you'll see plenty of builds to counter the seemingly powerful W/Mo's as well as team healers in general.

I never use monks and W/Mo's but I've sure met quite a few of them. If you just so happen to not have a counter for them, the best strategy would be to ignore them as best you could and go for other targets first.

The problem is just that many people are of the mind that their build should be able to counter everything thrown at them. With time and when/if W/Mo's and such become major trends, others would be willing to commit more to building specific counters for them.

It's just a matter of supply and demand.

Tarew
13-01-2005, 11:22
To be honest I'm starting to get fairly tired of how people want to keep restricting monks.
First of all, this is never going to happen since Arenanet wants every class to be balanced and this would give the monk a serious disadvantage to other classes.
Second of all, it's NOT necessary. The monk simply isn't imbalanced right now and if you're having trouble dealing with Warrior/Monks it'd help you MUCH more thinking of a way to counter them rather then to ask for monk restrictions...there are PLENTY of ways to do so I can assure you and every class has at least one.
So please finally give all this "monks need to be nerfed" begging a rest and start focusing on the solution instead of the problem.

Jor the Normal
13-01-2005, 11:29
I'm with you on that Tarew. People want the easy way out without learning how to counter a situation first. Stop with the whining about War/Monk or Monk/whatever, it's getting old and unnecessary.

Lyta
13-01-2005, 11:44
In GW you have TWO professions ... 2! 2! 2! ... and not 1

If your 2nd profession is strong then it's how you made your build. I'm sure an E/Mo can be as good as any primary Monk.

The Warrior is an exception. You can combine a Warrior with Ranger or Monk.
You don't have enough energy to be a good Me/E/Ne and as a W/Mo you are limited to low energy spells - effective only when you cast on yourself - healing others is way too energy consuming. On higher levels it becomes worse since a healing of 40-50 isn't worth anything when you can't do that constantly.

Oh .. and a little info .. the Mo has a spell that removes ALL hexes and conditions at once. In the arena I received multiple hexes and pindown - I removed them with one click and killed the Mesmer. :D
So never be overconfident - you can easily kill a W/Mo or become easily killed by a W/Mo - depends on builds/team/tactics :D

LordConan
13-01-2005, 11:57
I also totaly agree with Tarew and Jor The Normal!!
ArenaNet staff are exceptionally gifted people, those individuals created some of the most loved PCgames ever like Starcraft etc, and they don't just make poorly balanced classes, quite the opposite actually! And to be honest most of us are not competent enough (except maybe some alphas) to question their choices.

Tsume
13-01-2005, 12:31
Meh, all this does is make it obviously purposeful and acceptable that the Monk has too distinct a role, since none of the other classes can fill it.

Removing Monks > this suggestion in my eyes.

Though... making other classes have ally-support abilities, to help fill in the voids which only Monks can, is obviously > removing Monks.

Now SquidgY you are right in saying that no other profession can heal like the monk...but no other profession is meant to. That is a very self hypocritical statement. You see the monk cant play the full roll of those other characters either. It is like a comparison circle chart. All the circles overlap in the middle, allowing professions to lean to one role or another, but no profession will be able to fill the bubble of another profession....it can only meet it in the middle. Allow me to put it into a difference context, one that might help illustrate how contradictory the statement in question actually is.

I have a fruit basket. Looking at it amongst other fruits I see an orange and a banana. The orange can be turned into juice, and the banana can not, thus the orange is clearly superior and should be removed. But the orange does have some use, so instead let us form a method of producing banana juice so that these two fruit are equal.
What I failed to realize in this scenario is that the banana can become a banana split, and the orange cannot. I empowerd one, and ripped the uniquity from the other.

Now I hope most of you read that scenario and thought it was rediculous. Now reread the oppinions about removing monks in any form or fashion. Do they sound hauntingly familiar?

Silent Dash
13-01-2005, 12:42
I agree on that one, there are some char combinations which may be slightly harder to kill than others, but there is absolutely no such thing as invulnerable!

sabotagex I see that this 30 min match disturbes you, but if only your team have used apropriate skill you wouldn't have had any problems at all. Warriors could have used Jaw Breaker to stop monks from healing, then use knock down +hamstirng to take them down, and the monks in your team could have used degenration skills and/or Back Fire on the fiend monks.
First take out monks one by one then the W/Mo are no problem...

No monk-primary-only for me.

EDIT/ I think W/Mo is so popular cause they are so easy to play in PvE

I completly agree about how its so common b/c of PvE. But i hate when you depend soly on a monk and hes terrible. So every class should have an oppurtunity for /m. :xsmile4:

SojakFA
13-01-2005, 13:07
Ok, here is a fix for all the complaining about Seconday monks:

Reduce all healing spells capabilities, and then increase the Divine Favor bonus. Move a couple key spells (aka Healing Hands [and ffs make it unelite again!]) to Divine Favors. Boom, problem solved. Primary Monk's keep their current power and /Mo's are watered down a little.

sabotagex
13-01-2005, 13:42
I'm with you on that Tarew. People want the easy way out without learning how to counter a situation first. Stop with the whining about War/Monk or Monk/whatever, it's getting old and unnecessary.

People need to read the post (EDITED).

1st thing (EDITED), READ THE POST. The post is about the number of healers possible on the battlefield. The only thing I said about W/MO was there wasn't enough diversity in the Warrior class.

No one is whining about anything, it was a post for discussion. My whole point was the though of making less healers on the battlefield to make battles go quicker. I never said anything agenst the people making Guild Wars.

EDIT BY CHANTAL: To remove the flaming remarks.

sabotagex
13-01-2005, 13:48
To be honest I'm starting to get fairly tired of how people want to keep restricting monks.
First of all, this is never going to happen since Arenanet wants every class to be balanced and this would give the monk a serious disadvantage to other classes.
Second of all, it's NOT necessary. The monk simply isn't imbalanced right now and if you're having trouble dealing with Warrior/Monks it'd help you MUCH more thinking of a way to counter them rather then to ask for monk restrictions...there are PLENTY of ways to do so I can assure you and every class has at least one.
So please finally give all this "monks need to be nerfed" begging a rest and start focusing on the solution instead of the problem.

Who the hell said monks need a nerf? (EDITED) This was for discussion like its stated in my first post that you obviously didn't read.

I am not worried about W/MO, I can kill them and my team can kill them. The post is about less healers on the battlefield to make battles go quicker and more diversity in the warrior class.

(EDITED)

The harder you make it to kill people in a PvP game, the less PvP you get.

EDIT BY CHANTAL: To remove inflamatory remarks.

sabotagex
13-01-2005, 13:59
sabotagex I see that this 30 min match disturbes you, but if only your team have used apropriate skill you wouldn't have had any problems at all. Warriors could have used Jaw Breaker to stop monks from healing, then use knock down +hamstirng to take them down, and the monks in your team could have used degenration skills and/or Back Fire on the fiend monks.

No man, what disturbed me was the fact that no one could kill anyone. and we had 2 elementalist dropping AoE's as fast as we could. The other team just had 2 really good monks. The only reason this match ended at 30 min was because of one of the monks quit out the game.

I know how to kill people in the game. This wasn't a ***** thread as much as it was just an idea thread for discussion. Personally I would rather have faster battles, because I like killing people.

If the monk class was primary only then teams would have to choose how many healers they want at the expense of damage dealers. As it stands now a team can load up with secondary monks and have a whole team full of damage dealers and healers.

But this topic is just for discussion, either people see my point or they don't, thats why I asked for the feedback from other players.

Chantal Dubois
13-01-2005, 14:44
Sabotagex, people did read your original post and responded. There is no reason for you to start flaming them. That is something we absolutely do NOT tolerate on these boards.

If you don't feel that people have understood your point, then you need to rephrase it in a friendly manner in which they will, without resorting to calling them names. Consider yourself warned as I enjoy good discussions, but there's no reason for it to turn into a flamefest and I don't like whipping out the ban stick. If you start flaming again, you will be banned.

MasterDad
13-01-2005, 14:48
[QUOTE=sabotagex]What does everyone think about The monk class being limited to Primary only?


You'd be asking for trouble , if i'm correct the monk's armor is not all that great !


I personally would like to see more diversity in the character classes, instead of every warrior being W/MO, etc.... Also If monk was primary only then it would be easier to kill characters and you would not be stuck in these long PvP battles. (I had a battle in the gladiator arena that went over 30 min with no one dying, each team had 2 monks and the other classes had secondary monk. I though this was a bit out of hand.)


Ever hear of firestorm or those other spells that do area damage , well so much for thos monks you where talking about



Make players easier to kill, even with support. This will make battles quicker. Everyone should remember a few beta's back when the warriors had insane STR based heals. Warriors were close to impossible to kill and it made battles go way too long.


Thats not true warriors always could be beat , but you have to figure out how to do that.


I took some of the last bit out , doesn't make sense to me to even comment about it !


------ MasterDad ------

sabotagex
13-01-2005, 14:59
Sabotagex, people did read your original post and responded. There is no reason for you to start flaming them. That is something we absolutely do NOT tolerate on these boards.

If you don't feel that people have understood your point, then you need to rephrase it in a friendly manner in which they will, without resorting to calling them names. Consider yourself warned as I enjoy good discussions, but there's no reason for it to turn into a flamefest and I don't like whipping out the ban stick. If you start flaming again, you will be banned.

Sorry man, it just pisses me off when people comment on stuff that isn't close to the original post.

sabotagex
13-01-2005, 15:00
[QUOTE=sabotagex]What does everyone think about The monk class being limited to Primary only?


You'd be asking for trouble , if i'm correct the monk's armor is not all that great !


I personally would like to see more diversity in the character classes, instead of every warrior being W/MO, etc.... Also If monk was primary only then it would be easier to kill characters and you would not be stuck in these long PvP battles. (I had a battle in the gladiator arena that went over 30 min with no one dying, each team had 2 monks and the other classes had secondary monk. I though this was a bit out of hand.)


Ever hear of firestorm or those other spells that do area damage , well so much for thos monks you where talking about



Make players easier to kill, even with support. This will make battles quicker. Everyone should remember a few beta's back when the warriors had insane STR based heals. Warriors were close to impossible to kill and it made battles go way too long.


Thats not true warriors always could be beat , but you have to figure out how to do that.


I took some of the last bit out , doesn't make sense to me to even comment about it !


------ MasterDad ------

I am not even going to comment on this subject anymore. People obviously dont have a clue about what a good healer is.

DevilDog
13-01-2005, 15:05
Right. Everyone who wants to nerf or otherwise destroy the Monk profession needs to remember this is a tactical game, not one where you can just beat on something untill it dies.

Like I said in another topic, if you're having trouble killing Monks in PvP just go try PvE for a while. Monks are common and as long as you're higher level it would allow you to focus on tactics without having to worry about dying.

The direct way is not always the best way to go about something. A Monk can only heal so fast, so far, and so many at a time, so remember that and use it to your advantage. No profession is invincible, and the Monk is no diffirent. They can be killed, it might take some time, it might take some planning, but they can be killed.

For everyone who wants to remove the Monk profession, or nerf it and give other professions more healing skills, think about this... You hate W/M's, right? And you hate Monks, right? Well, if everyone could heal just like a W/M does, then all the professions would then heal like a W/M only they could be a Warrior/Elementalist and still be healing like they were a Warrior/Elementalist/Monk. If you take away, or destroy the Monk you then must make the other professions better, which would just make you all hate things more.

But luckily, that will never happen, because AN realises that, even though some of you may not.

Stop trying to make the game easier on yourself, that's not what GW is about. If you want to make it easier, start learning how to beat professions rather than complaining when you can't. I suppose it's caused by playing other games to much, always running around with rocket launchers, or being 900 levels above everyone else, but in GW you will have to live with the fact that there is no 'supreme' weapon, build, profession, skill or anything for that matter.

If you will always be wanting things that are essential to the gameplay to change because it makes it too hard, rather than YOU changing and getting better, then I'm afraid you're always going to have problems.

Lipton
13-01-2005, 15:41
Warrior Monks can be killed believe it or not just as every class can be killed.

Its not that hard, in the beginning everyone believed this because they were still new, but there are counters to everything.

lostchyld
13-01-2005, 17:18
I think it's too difficult to find a monk primary now, and I think that limiting the class to primary would just make healers harder to find. I also like having the support abilities limited mainly to one class. If the other classes had more support abilities, I'd be expected to use them, the same way I'm expected to tank just because I took warrior as my primary class.

SojakFA
13-01-2005, 17:38
sabotagex, I don't think the complaining about nerfing was directed soley at you, so try not to take it personally. Ever since someone figured out how to make an effective W/Mo, people on these forums have been screaming nerf (about various things, not just W/Mo. That was just the beginning). And I think alot of us are just tired of it.

There are several players on these forums that need to figure out that if you don't have a Monk, it means you need to play differently. Of course you aren't going to be able to stand and tank 10 creatures in PvE. Of course you aren't going to have as many rezzes (which I still feel are not as big a deal as everyone makes them out to be, after all, you can restart the mission with no penalty) as you want. If you don't want to have a monk, your tactics HAVE to change. Just like if you don't have an Elementalist. Just like if you don't have a Warrior. etc.

And, though you claim you are not into nerfing, making Monks Primary only (which diffenently messes with game mechanics) can be seen as a nerf. It forces players to choose the 'all or nothing' path. The only reason to do Monk Primary is Divine Favor, but what about a person (like me, I'm currently developing a Me/Mo that uses Smites and Protection) who doesn't want to heal? What if it is a Elementalist who wants some Protection Prayers to round out her arsenal? Then she would have to pick Mo/E and loss all the benefits of Energy Storage, just for one line of spells.

There is a little fixing to be done to monks to make secondaries a little less powerful (maybe, I'm still not wholey convinced on it), but this way is not a fix at all. It would hurt everyone and help no one.

So again sabotagex, I don't think anybody was screaming soley at you. You are pretty new to the forums, go back and read through the archives and see all the attacks that have been launched on monks. Sorry we all kinda unloaded on you, but we seem to be about fed up with it all.

:xsmile3:

REI ONRYOU
13-01-2005, 17:54
I read your other thread before this, so I'm copying and pasting my post from it to try and keep the topic in here.




I would love to see:

3) Make the Monk Class Primary only or Make it so that warriors cannot take monk as a secondary. I would like to see more diversity in character classes, instead of every warrior being W/MO

What I read is "Gimp the Warriors!". I don't wish to sound rude or anything, but that's all it would do. That or Gimp every class apart from Monks. In Enemy Territory, I played a Medic. But my fps skills were good enough for me to fight like I was a Soldier. So I did so. I'd play Rambo Medic and it worked very well, I could make amazing killing sprees, heal and res team mates and survive. It was very fun. It was ET's eqivalent of a W/Mo.

Now, I play a W/Mo. I only have 2 Monk skills. Orison of Healing, and Resurrect. Orison allows a fast, semi-spammable heal, which I can use on me and team members and Ressurect is sensible to have. Any Monk (pri or sec) has a Res for the fact that it's the most useful skill there is. I tend to use Orison on other team members. Why? Because the Warrior can already heal themselves with other skills. Healing Signet anyone? Some (a lot, but far less now) use Healing Hands which is where most complaints come from, but if they're using it effectively, your not doing your job effectively. Rangers can pin down Warriors and kill from a distance, Eles have great damage attacks, Mesmers can shut them down and so forth.

A Warrior tends to go Monk to ensure they survive long enough to do their job. There are many who play different sec classes, but just because most play W/Mo, doesn't mean they should be punished. It's only smart to try and ensure your own survival.

I don't wish to sound rude by this post, but I just want to show that the problem isn't with the game mechanics.

SquidgY
13-01-2005, 20:45
A Warrior tends to go Monk to ensure they survive long enough to do their job. There are many who play different sec classes, but just because most play W/Mo, doesn't mean they should be punished. It's only smart to try and ensure your own survival.


Don't overlook the cost of most non-Monk skills to the cost of Monk skill. The amount of 5/1/2 or 5/1/5 spells Monks have is sickening, especially compared to my Ranger/Elementalist/Necro/Mesmer (any combo of either)…

salaboB
13-01-2005, 20:46
Besides, if everyone is hating the warrior/monks for healing hands, they should learn to have their casters target them. Healing hands was changed so that it would only heal for physical damage (I think that was a change, at least) so it shouldn't be triggering off of elementalist/necro/mezmer spells. Alternatively, you could have a ranger cast greater conflagration and turn all physical damage elemental, so that healing hands wouldn't work at all for a period.

Shielding hands would still work, as it helps prevent all damage...but it caps out at 15 prevented with level 12 protection prayers so it's much weaker.

Of course, I don't believe that giving other classes a few support spells (Low +regen, armor boosting, whatever) would reduce the usefulness of monks. All it would do is reduce the necessity for them a little bit. And as for rez spells to other classes...I noticed that the monk rez rebirth has become more effective linked to protection prayers, so monk revives are getting stronger and it would be very easy to give a crippled (crippled == reusable but weaker) version to a couple other classes to remove that requirement for having a monk along too.

Vorador Shadowbane
13-01-2005, 21:01
yeah i have had a few fights with all monk and secondary monk.

they ethier go on forever or the other team gets wasted most of the time.

and i know as people say, there skills that can deal with it it and so on, but that basicly mean everyone thats not a monk or secondary monk must carry those skills to stay competative.

also you never really know what your going to be fighting anyway, which mean wasting skill slot on skills to deal with monk, just incase they have some or you lose.

also some of those things like Skull Crack and that arn't all that easy to come by, esp if you in the lvl 10 and under Arena, you wont have things like Skull Crack and Conncusion Shot.

DevilDog
13-01-2005, 21:23
Its funny to see how scared people are about nerfing heals or making Monk Primary only. Go back to the carebear games, please.

If your worried about dying so much, play PvE. The fact is less healers on the Battlefield means faster fights. faster fights mean more people I can kill.

Grow a pair please.

Hmmm... my post on that seems to be gone. If it was a Mod who removed it, forgive me for getting a little too into it.

I'll tone it down a little, and try this again...

We're trying to keep it from turning into a carebear game, which in my eyes would be allowing all the professions to be the healer.

We're not worried about dying alot, which is why we see no problem with only the Monk being the healer. You can still heal yourself, and a few professions can heal others, and that's fine. But to nerf, remove or boost the professions when it comes to healing would be a big mistake. You would then never be able to kill anyone because they'd all be Monks, in a sense.

This time, I won't respond to the last part.

This isn't intended to sound harsh, or start anything, so if you take it that way, sorry.

Chantal Dubois
13-01-2005, 21:24
One reason not to make monks a primary class only is what about the smiting line? My current W/Mo doesn't use any healing from the monk profession, but she uses some of the smiting skills, such as Judge's Insight.

salaboB
13-01-2005, 21:34
We're trying to keep it from turning into a carebear game, which in my eyes would be allowing all the professions to be the healer.

There seems to be two threads that have turned into pretty much the same topic.

I think people would be satisfied if other classes had some ally buffs, they don't necessarily need effective healing. Just something so that monks aren't the only real buffers, healers, and rezzers (With the ability to debuff and smite a little bit thrown in as well!)

SojakFA
13-01-2005, 21:56
Yea, as salaboB said, if people took the time to learn about Monk's they would not be as invulnerable as they seem. Though I still think Mo's should keep their rez abilities (after all, if there are really all these /Mo's running around getting a re-usable rez shouldn't be a problem!). I still have yet to hear a compelling reason as to why any class except MAYBE the necro should have them.

Sadly, in the end, it seems it was sabotagex that was not able to read in the end, not us.

salaboB
13-01-2005, 22:05
I still have yet to hear a compelling reason as to why any class except MAYBE the necro should have them.

Actually it always struck me that the enchant rez vengeance would fit much better necro than cleric. What's with a monk bringing someone back only to have them drop dead again 30 seconds later? Stupid diety!

The only other class that it would make sense (If you're trying to make it class specific) to give a rez to would be ranger: Master herbalist, they could find the extremely rare remedy that could undo that last fatal blow. Put a time limit on how long someone can be dead before it stops working, since it would be a 'nonmagical' cure.

As far as a waste of skill slots if you bring spells to counter monks, most of the monk counters will serve to slow down any spell caster, so it's really not that much of a waste unless your opponents don't bring anyone along who uses spells.

I think there's more than enough ways around both primary and secondary monks to not need to lock it as a primary only. And if it ends up being obvious there aren't...more should be made, rather than breaking the basic design of the game.

Tarew
13-01-2005, 22:23
By the way Sabotagex, I consider making monks primary only, a nerf (a disadvantage compared to other character classes) and a pretty big one at that too. That was the nerf I was talking about.
If you didn't get that from my post perhaps you should be doing something to improve your reading comprehension skills before posting here...

SojakFA
13-01-2005, 23:15
Actually it always struck me that the enchant rez vengeance would fit much better necro than cleric. What's with a monk bringing someone back only to have them drop dead again 30 seconds later? Stupid diety!
I actually had the exam same thought during the commute home this evening. That would make a lot more sense with Necro's.

SquidgY
13-01-2005, 23:46
I actually had the exam same thought during the commute home this evening. That would make a lot more sense with Necro's.

And I wouldn't be so whiney about Resurrection Signet if two classes could Resurrect… (well, maybe I still would be if the only Necro rez makes people alive only 50% of the time.)



You would then never be able to kill anyone because they'd all be Monks, in a sense.
Isn't that the main post's complaint?

A secondary Monk although good, suffers greatly when it comes to the ability to heal.
So… why would ANet have to make the non-Monk heal spells overshadow Monk spells +DF? I'm confused…

SojakFA
14-01-2005, 00:04
And I wouldn't be so whiney about Resurrection Signet if two classes could Resurrect… (well, maybe I still would be if the only Necro rez makes people alive only 50% of the time.)
I do believe that I've mentioned before the fact that I wouldn't mind other classes having rez or even heals IF IT MADE SENSE. I do believe someone somewhere (we really oughta just merge these 2 threads going on right now) something about Water Magic having a heal. Makes sense to me, especially since Earth Magic has some decent protection spells. With Necro's it would also make sense to have a rez (though I don't think it should be nearly as nice as regular rez since the Monk's power comes from a god). A Warrior communing with a higher power and bringing people back to life doesn't make sense. Nor does the ranger (no amount of herbal goodness is gonna kick start a body, sorry. Takes Divine Power or black magic). Mesmer also wouldn't make sense, as his spells f with peoples brains, and dead people don't think. Elementalists would be more likely to accidently set someone on fire than they would be to bring someone to life. So hey, if you can talk ANet into it, I am fine with Necro's having rez.

Alot of my issues with all these discussions lately has alot to do with the fact that alot of the suggestions do not make sense for the class. I'm all for variety, but not to the point where every freaking class is the same.

DevilDog
14-01-2005, 00:05
Isn't that the main post's complaint?

So… why would ANet have to make the non-Monk heal spells overshadow Monk spells +DF? I'm confused…

No, not everyone is a Monk/whatever or a whatever/Monk. Giving healing spells to all the professions WOULD be everyone is basically a secondary Monk without ever having to set it.

Sorry, I didn't say that quite the way I meant to. I was trying to say you have to sacrifice a damage dealing secondary profession(or whatever you like) for a healing secondary profession, rather than everyone being able to heal. Not exactly sure the right way to explain that, though.

The Player Killer
14-01-2005, 00:49
w/mo dont suffer healing ability,but attack ability more or less.

you have to remember,since the char wipe,people are using pre-made builds to get into pvp quickly,so alot of people are trying the w/mo build out because it seems to be a effective build.But (hopfully) some people will see the benefits other secondary classes offer over the monks ability to heal.

Quick Tip:In about EVERY pvp battle when there is 1 or more monks,its wise for your party to gang up and take them out first.If done correctly,this should shorten the battle time.

salaboB
14-01-2005, 00:54
Nor does the ranger (no amount of herbal goodness is gonna kick start a body, sorry. Takes Divine Power or black magic).
Sorry, but when you die from fatal injuries your body does not shut down instantly. There's a period (At least, for many types of death) where you're unable to move, mortally wounded, but revivable if you get immediate medical attention. That's when the ranger revive skill would supposedly be working.

Warriors could call them back with the force of their will, even (Adrenaline based revive skill) I'm sure there's some diety of battle they could call on for it. It would also be timered, although in this case the timer would be the adrenaline available.

Vorador Shadowbane
14-01-2005, 01:03
well of course there is another way to do it, not that i think it should or shouldn't be done, but just another way of doing it.

is to have the healing side of the monk made into the monk only line, or move some of the more over used spells by monk secondarys moved to Devine Favor.

that way not stoping Secondary Monks, but stopping Secondary Monks from healing so much

Dreamsmith
14-01-2005, 01:07
Nor does the ranger (no amount of herbal goodness is gonna kick start a body, sorry. Takes Divine Power or black magic).
...and there is no greater source of Divine Power than Nature. ;)

SojakFA
14-01-2005, 01:40
Sheesh, give an inch and they try to freaking take a mile. Face it: Your characters will not be able to do everything. Possibly 3 classes (as I had forgotten about the druids of Denravi so Dreamsmith does indeed have a point) with rez... That is enough.

Vorador, we could do that, yea, but I really want to avoid a wholesale movement of skills. Moving one or two is fine, but that would involve a whole change in lineup!

salaboB
14-01-2005, 01:52
3 classes would be more than enough, I was just providing examples for how it could fit with more.

5zigen
14-01-2005, 06:10
Monks are not in the least overpowered as secondary classes. Even moreso now that healing hands is well balanced.

I used to think that divine favor was useless. Its actually one of the best primary attributes in the game. it makes the monk as much as any of their skills.

SojakFA
14-01-2005, 13:24
That and it does have some VERY nice spells :)

MasterDad
14-01-2005, 18:16
I am not even going to comment on this subject anymore. People obviously dont have a clue about what a good healer is.



I play a ranger / monk so i think i know what a good healer is , my friend ...


------ MasterDad ------