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AnarkiNet
24-05-2005, 08:06
im noticing almost all air spells have 25% armor penetration...and i have the 20/20 storm artifact for air magic, and as soon as i get a collector air wand i'll use that too...however:
there are alot of earth spells which ignore armor, and earth is more party friendly (with the exception of gale and blinding flash on air side of things)

so would it be worth my time to mix the two? perhaps like 8 or less in earth and a full 10 or 11 (im of the opinion that 12 is a waste) in air? im a E/Me, im thinking 10 or 11 in air, 10 in energy storage, and the rest in inspiration magic.

im not sure what skills i'll use but i really want to mess around with chain lightning :)

Aire
24-05-2005, 10:45
Air is very powerful against a single target, but against multiple ones it has trouble simply because most Air spells require a huge amount of energy. Earth is always a nice secondary attribute because of the good defensive spells

/Aire :)

Torry
24-05-2005, 16:13
My ElW does a load of damage over time, not really spiking too much. For this use, I am quite happy with Fire instead.

Armour penetration may be good for Air, but targets set on fire burn with 100% armour penetration, don't they?

So my Immolate for 45ish + 3x14 damage, does very good damage IMO.

The spell sucks up so much energy I can more or less dump most of my mana into it in a minute.

On multiple targets, Fire is totally uber as far as I can see?

Also, Fire have a lot of good spells costing 10 mana which seem to suit my mana regen quite well. I did not get the elites I want yet though. (El. Att I guess).

HawkFyre
24-05-2005, 22:42
Fire is amazing IF and I stress the IF your opponents stay close together and are too stupid to move out of AOE area's

I've stacked Meteor Shower, Searing Heat and Rogdar's (sp?) and killed a team of 8 by myself.


but they were stupid and didnt move

That said, I've tried all 4 in pvp and I still perfer fire. With earth secondary for defense.

My reason for that is the burn effect off alot of the spells and the fact that if you have a monk that listens you can almost force a team into the aoe radius.


The knockdown off Meteor and Meteor Shower is a bonus too if a team decides to team up on you and you can get it off in time.

They get knocked down then you can stack more aoe's on them.


Personally for pvp I'd perfer water before air aswell for the Maelstrom spell its VERY effective in pvp. Also Water Trident is one of the better Elite skills imho

Torry
25-05-2005, 10:48
Air is very powerful against a single target, but against multiple ones it has trouble simply because most Air spells require a huge amount of energy. Earth is always a nice secondary attribute because of the good defensive spells

/Aire :)

Aire, I never quite understood the power of Air. How effective is that 25% armour penetration?

It doesnt sound all that much? Again I am comparing to for example Immolate, where Burning will do 100% damage penetration..

If we compare for example Fireball to Lightning Orb, Fire does a bit mroe damage, and on more than one target. In this case, will the APenetration make up for that?

Same for that 5 mana bolt doing 35ish damage, dont remember its name. Does it really do more damage than Flare? And if you DO want armour penetration, won't heavy degen be so much more effective.

Does that leave heavy spike damage as the pre of Air?

Edited: I did read your post on Air+El Attunements. Then I can understand that Air El can do a lot of continuous damage with 80% mana cost reduction...

It all boils down to good damage, fast casting time and fast recharge.. Ahum.
Orb got 5 sec recharge which is very good.

Fire got Flare and Immolate
Air got Strike and Orb

Fireball got a 10 sec recast, meaning its not as powerful as Orb for spamming eh?

Must say though that Earth also got a lot to offer now.

The drawback of the pure Air guy is that all he does is heavy damage on one target. Small versatility. Take what you want and pay for it..

I did try to build my El to Air+Earth hitting lvl 20. Doing Charge+Stoning+Aftershock.

It totally sucked due to mana consumption. I did not have any Attunements going at the time. :)

Sieg Hawk
25-05-2005, 19:44
The problem with fire is that it doesnt work well in the ring of fire missions and that many people wear pyromancer robes so sometimes it doesnt become effective either. I am using air since it rocks in PvP, against an elementalist of the same level, i can hit then 182 with lightning orb or chain of lightning, while i their fireball hits me 92, fire storm/meteor shower don't work on me because i can run and my lightning strike hits 70+ while their flare hits 40s.

I might actually change my secondary, from healing to fire/ earth, i havn't really checked out the earth moves, and its defensie and can knock back monsters and people, so i might try it.

One problem i always find is that with enchantments, i can never remember to use them before i enter a fight, i just rush in, fight until i have half of my mana left, then use elemental attunement....(which is a little bit silly since i hav 30-40 energy left)

ptgatsby
25-05-2005, 20:09
I've been looking over Air vs Fire since I got the game - not a betaer, so that would make it a couple of weeks. I have redone the math three times now and I always get the same result.


Under no circumstances will air be better than fire in terms of damage. I don't believe it is even close. I would go as far as to say that even a substandard fire build can match air's damage.


There are a couple of caveats to that though - One is that fire gets no 'blind', no 'gale', no 'whirlwind'. It gets no interupts, weakness and so forth. It does not cap out the -10 degeneration that can be hit when teamed with mesers or necros.

On the other hand Fire gets plenty of spells without exhaustion (!!), the most powerful AOEs, some knockdowns, including an aoe. It also has one of the neatest tricks extreme damage by stacking AOEs. With the insta-cast glyph, knockdown support and such, fire can dump damage in a 5-10 seconds burst that no other build can come close to hitting - including air against a single target, never mind against decent aoe effect.

Here is a chart showing the difference. These assume single targets and used the following skill list (choices were based on limited/no exhaustion and ideal conditions for phoenix and Mind Shock. Air has two exhausting spell, Fire has one - both have one elite). The following high damage spells were not included in Fire due to their nature - Firestorm (300dmg, 140-250% times higher than the other skills), Meteor (Tied with fireball for 3rd most damaging)and Meteor storm (somewhere close to firestorm, if not higher). Overall, if included, fire rates near 150% above air on a single target high armored player, whereas 5/6 spells have AOE effects. Even if air included every exhausting spell, it would merely match the fire chart shown here.

Fire:
Flare
Fireball
Immolate
Incendendiary Bonds
Mindburn
Phoenix

Air:
Lightning Strike
Chain Lightning
Enervating Charge
Lightning Touch
Lightning Orb
Mind Shock


Chart adjusted for AR:

http://www.cohchampion.com/hold/firevsair1.jpg

I'm definately looking for alternatives to this math, if there are exceptions or a better air build. An obvious issue is with time and mana. In this build, the mana is 75 for fire, 65 for air - 10 sec CT for fire, 8 for air.

I don't quite have the patience to chart out the optimal 'always on fire', and mana limits - I believe they would favor air moderately. The one time I spent some time working it out, fire still was more favoriable due to exhaustion, but it takes a great deal of time and work to chart out the perfect string of attacks.

phxcityslick
25-05-2005, 20:14
What i do (i'm a E/N) i cast my healing spell....then i launch fire storm at the archers and when the melee characters run up to me i do lava font.... and attack the ranged guys by this time they are dead quick....then lava font again and attack the melee guys 99 percent of the time i walk away with more then 80 % of my health intact i can take on 4-5 guys this way...

Sieg Hawk
25-05-2005, 21:43
I actually disagree a little bit, since AoE spells are only good in PvE, in PvP the enemy can just move out of the area dealing a max probs 98 dmg wif meteor shower and rogdorts invocation's burning. If you have a proper 1 vs 1, air vs fire match, air can damage one enemy very quickly, since lighning strike does more dmg than flare, lightning orb recharges quicker than fireball.

i have played loads of PvP recently, and everytime i attack a mage i hit then wif orb or chain about 182, i can basically 3 hit them.

O and forgot to say, the only good damaging spell that has exhaustion is chain of lightning, so i would cancel your theory on exhaustion.... at least i never had the problem with it.

phxcityslick
25-05-2005, 21:59
If your speaking on PVP i have no clue as i haven't gotten there... I'mk speaking strictly on PVE and i love my strat so far

Sieg Hawk
25-05-2005, 22:09
Try using fire magic in the ring of fire missions against the titans, you'll see what i mean. Also, thunderclap is a good spell against fire, since most fire spells takes 25 seconds of activation time, thunderclap can cause the enemy to constantly getting knock down after getting hit by an air spell, which makes it so the enemy can't run. Fire doesnt have effects apart from burn, which is not as fast as getting spammed by lightning.

A fast way to kill one enemy is:

thunderclap -> lighning strike -> orb -> chain -> then back to strike and repeat.

Even if both users wear each oppositions robes e.g. fire ele wear aero and air ele wear pyro, air will still do more damage so they have the upper hand.

Aire
25-05-2005, 23:47
For the armour stats there is a graph and explanation somewhere but i can't remember where.

Normally you'd expect the Armour Piercing to have 25% of your attack do full damage, and the other 75% to be affected by the armour. However, instead the armour total is reduced by 25% (the armour used is the breastplate). So a 60 armour is reduced to 45.

60 is the base armour, where all attacks do their written damage. If it goes lower, the modifier increases exponetially. Search for the graph on the forums or pm SonofRah

Armour Piercing is a lot better than it sounds. You average with a 100 damage orb doing 150 damage on an ele (not using air armour), monk, mesmer.

/Aire :)

phxcityslick
26-05-2005, 00:20
In my experience i don't fight only one monster at a timenormally i am facing 3-4 ... nor am i in the ring.... and if it's good for you...then use it

Parker Bsb
26-05-2005, 00:29
I'm curious about that aire, I have yet to see the armor peircing explained like that, however if it was I'd almost assume that it was bugged.

I do belive you, as you havn't really ever talked smack without backing it up... however it just seems wrong that it's like that (it does make sense tho now that you bring it up!)


edit: phxcityslick (sorry if I spelled your name wrong) if you pull well, you usually end up with 2 maybe 3 creatures... unless you want to retreat to force them all within the same proximity you are lucky if you can hit 2 at the same time with most AOE spells... at least that's what I've noticed anyways

Sieg Hawk
26-05-2005, 00:44
Like i said, AoEs are only good in PvE (before titans), if against top guilds, AoE wont have much effect.

phxcityslick
26-05-2005, 00:45
well the warrior tyope rush me and lava font takes care of them.. and the archers and spell casters just stand there and take it

and i told you this is for PvE pre fire....not everyone is that far

Aire
26-05-2005, 09:37
I personally am not sure - i know i've seen it explained by one of the Alpha testers in one of the threads in the community forum - I would search but its not working -.-

/Aire :)

Sieg Hawk
26-05-2005, 10:00
Well i recommend you not to use fire in the ring of fire chain.

Furqan
26-05-2005, 13:45
Well comin from a big PvP nut, it really seems lately, Air Ele's are the "new fad". Teams will run 3-4 air ele's, each with chain lightning and lightning orb. Maxed out, those spells are doing 80+ damage with armor penetration. Teams will spam 4 chain lightnings + orbs at once on a target, and QUCIKLY wipe out the target unless they have Protective Spirit on them. Healing Seed, Breeze, Life Bond are pretty worthless against them... Protective Spirit however is quite effective against this, but not many PvP monks carry this...

Torry
26-05-2005, 16:33
There are some damage calculators, for example Nash had one on their pages, whatever its called forgot it. Just put in armour level, in this case 60 vs 45, and get the figure.

Okay, if I use one I found now, the damage done is

100 damage vs 60 AL = 100 damage
100 damage vs 45 AL = 130 damage (25% armour penetration)
100 damage vs 75 AL = 77 damage (+15 armour vs fire situation

So yes, a 100 dam spell will do 130 lightning damage on normal armour, while it does only 77 damage if fire spell cast on pyro armour.

The 150 dam I cant explain. It doesnt make sense with double damage. Criticals however occur when? If using weapon they occur when you run away for example. This may be the case here?

But one thing; Look at Immolate; lets say 44+3x14 damage on skill 12 (dont remember exactly)

This will do 44 + 42 dam on a 60 AL armour

On 85 AL, it will do 29+42 = 71 damage

A similar Lightning spell will do (86 base damage, on 85 AL with 25% penetration) = 86 damage

Lightning is better again..

However, we must also say that Immolate costs 10 mana in the example; so damage/mana = 7.1

The lightning orb spell is doing what?

70ish damage x 1.3 damage / 15 mana = 91/15 = 6 damage/mana

(Note i say 1.3 damage cause it did 130 dam on 100 base damage)

So can we say that Air is more mana efficient? Who cares with 80% mana cost reduction? then you are back to recycle times again I guess.

It isn't entirely correct that aoe is never used in pvp. It is rarely used. However, a fireball hitting 2 ppl more than make up for the rarity?
If melee are doing damage, they hvae to focus on same target, opening for instant aoe spells like Aftershock. However the guys got high armour so then we talk armour penetration again. Urgh, headaches.

In PvP, fire is so much more fun for me at least.
PvP grows boring fast so..

Sieg Hawk
27-05-2005, 00:00
Yeah, and for me i dont care about my mana.... i use elemental attunement and get 50% back:) or i can just change my 2nd pro to mesmer and use mesmer skills to get energy back.

Feynt
27-05-2005, 08:32
Actually as a mesmer/elementalist I enjoy spamming Lightning Strike over and over every few seconds. Arcane Echo pairs with it quite nicely, and I can quickly zap down anything with only about a 2 second recycle time between casts. Also with Arcane Echo, it's possible for me to dual cast Chain Lightning. More often than not it's worth the exhaustion. Enervating Charge is also a great spell for PvP or PvM, it causes weakness and deals a decent amount of damage.

It's especially good for PvM, since I've yet to see a monster cast Mend Ailment in response, but I doubt if even a PvP monk could keep up with an echoed weakness dealer on a pair of warriors while the rest of his team is going down the tubes.


Actually what's really fun is spamming Stone Daggers with Fast Casting 8. Machine gun fun, and with maximum Earth it's pretty decent damage too. I recommend every elementalist to try it at least once, just walk out and start jamming on the Stone Daggers key constantly. It makes you feel good inside, even if it's not the most spectacular damage you've ever done. However if your opponent were dazed, this WOULD be a great way to prevent even 1/4 casting time spells from being pulled off (unless your opponent has good timing or luck).

Aire
27-05-2005, 10:10
The 150 dam I cant explain. It doesnt make sense with double damage. Criticals however occur when? If using weapon they occur when you run away for example. This may be the case here?


Thats just a superior rune :)

/Aire :)