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Lestrade
24-05-2005, 20:40
Well... is it me, or is necromancer generally the weakest of all the professions available at the moment?
I don't seem to do enough damage as hard as I try... I am trying very hard to learn the way of the necromancer, but the harder I try, the less confident I am of it..

Anyone please.. help me here to understand the dark ways..

ShadisLecrou
24-05-2005, 20:53
Necromancers are more of a support class than a direct damage class. While the Necro has alot of good damaging skills in the Blood line, they're usually less damaging than other similar skills from other classes. In alot of cases it's because in addition to dealing damage, they also heal the Necro.

The Necro class is more of a support class than a heavy-hitting class. With the Blood line, you have lots of spells that will hurt the enemy and help you. With the curses line, you have quite a few spells that will make it easier for your teammates to take out your enemies. And in the Death line, you have the ability to add additional bodies to your team, and keep those bodies alive (or exploit corpses in other ways to assist your team or hinder the other team).

There are a few good N/W or W/N builds that are designed to be killing machines, but they work well because while you're killing the other guy, you're healing yourself. Not because they're doing the most damage per second to the other guy. Other than that, the best way to play a Necro is to learn to assist your team in lots of little ways so that they can more easily take out enemies. Not to try to take out the enemies directly yourself.

Lestrade
24-05-2005, 21:01
I do understand they're more of a support class rather than direct damage.. but they pale in comparison compared to others like mesmers or monks..

It's like.. they're in the half way of nowhere... where do I start? Where would I really put my points and invest in so I could actually HELP other than standing there cursing?

Kildred Devine
24-05-2005, 21:11
I have a level 15 Necro/Elementalist and love to play that character. Most of what is said previously is true. I would suggest that you mix the Necro with another class capable of dishing out damage like the Elementalist. The Necro armor just isn't strong enough to allow you to take a beating like a warrior type does. I rarely solo with him, but when I do, I use a different spell/skill set than when I am out with my guild.

Lestrade
24-05-2005, 21:26
I'm using a N/M... maybe that's the major cause of my frustrations so far.. I've been in Lornar's pass a lot of times, but most of it were spent lying there dead.
Not much help to my teammates as I thought I'll be neither..

Any advice?

Voldox Albatross
24-05-2005, 21:27
I have a 18 N/Me, and in my time playing that character, I have found that as stated, the Necro does function most effectively as a support class. I primarily use a death/curses/domination balanced build, with a few points thrown in soul reaping for a little extra boost in power regain.

Railen Shatterskull
24-05-2005, 21:32
Necros are a tough class to play. Instead of trying to nuke your enemy into next week (which isn't going to happen unless your secondary is an elementalist), try screwing up the offensive capabilities of the opponents. As a necro, you can slow down their attacks, make them weaker so their attacks don't hurt as much, drop their AL so your melee guys can hit harder, strip all their enchantments, stack up conditions on them, use their corpses to heal your party with well of blood, and a few other nifty effects. Not to mention minion armies, which can help spread out the incoming damage to your tanks, plus give you an energy boost as they die. None of these do much of any direct damage to speak of, but they can make a HUGE difference in a battle. And, depending on what your secondary profession is, you can potentially interrupt enemy casters and stack up some nice dots as well.

Necros don't do a huge amount of damage by themselves, but they can make it a lot easier for others to do damage.

Another subtle benefit from being a necro is your secondary class. If you choose another casting class as your secondary, you can concentrate on that, plus have the added benefit of soul reaping. So, for an elementalist, even though you won't have energy storage, your energy will be constantly replenished by enemy deaths, so building up energy won't be a huge issue. A primary elementalist might be able to dump more energy in a short period of time due to storage, but in a long and drawn out fight, the necro will continually recieve more energy as the mobs die, and will end up having more energy throughout the battle. Or you could play a monk that has "rechargable batteries" so to speak. So while you might look like a necro, you can actually pull off a decent role as another class if you want a change. You won't be as effective as a primary of that class, bu you can come pretty close to it.

SioCredesse
24-05-2005, 21:38
It's like.. they're in the half way of nowhere... where do I start? Where would I really put my points and invest in so I could actually HELP other than standing there cursing?

It would probably be best to take some time and try out a few skill combinations while thinking about what your personal play style is like. I personally found that I enjoyed the Necro more (and became more effective) when I stopped concentrating on hitting hard, and focused on draining health. It seems to me that one of the most effective things I can do as a necro is to neutralize regenerative spells with degenerative ones. I pumped up my blood magic and threw in a few "vampire" type skills, and now I do a pretty good job of eliminating the healer types so that my team can work on the fighting types more effectively.

That happens to work for me. For you, who knows? You might be the type who loves to create minions all over the place. It's always possible that you would enjoy a warrior/elementalist for crazy damage dealing. Whatever you decide to do, I would give the advice that it isn't the amount of damage that a skill does that matters, it's whether you use it effectively. Again, play around a little and find out what style you like. It will probably help.

Desmodas
25-05-2005, 01:08
I would love to see some numbers comparisons. I use a Necro Ranger build and feel I do pretty decent damage. I am sure I dont out hit an Elemantalist but I would not say my attacks are weak. I tend to focus on Death Magic and find Deathly Swarm and Vile Touch pretty effective. Bone Horrors combined with Putrid Explosion and the damge seems to rack up pretty quick.

I doubt this stategy would work as well in PVP or is that what everyone is refering to?

My only gripe about Necros are energy cost and long casting times.

hotdogtesting
25-05-2005, 04:43
Necromancers are probably the most consistent damage dealer of any class.

Most of you direct damage spells have perfect armor penetration (except against a few rare monsters). This gives you guaranteed damage that many classes have trouble achieving late game (Amnoon Oasis and on).

I would say that like any class, the necromancer can take on any role in a party, that is tank, support, or nuker. There is no need to characterise the necromancer into one role, because the necromancer like the mesmer is a jack-of-all-trades.

The one thing that necromancers have going against it is probably a lack of refund points. 24 points is hardly enough, because, unlike other classes, a necromancer needs to fundamentally change his point distribution in order to change roles.

Creed
25-05-2005, 04:46
The current real problem with the necro is the lack of a true primary skill.

Sure soulreaping, works. And it is usful, but the problem is each other primary skill is several times better than it. For each class the primary skill of others is much better than that of the necromancers.

The best thing a necro could[/b have is spell distance.. meaning instead of sopul reaping, each point you put in the primary skill of the necromancer allows him to cast from a slight bit further away, allowing him to curse people before they get in and giving the necro a chance to let his drains weaken the foe before they pummel him.

Aww but that is an all to distant wish.

One strenght the necromancer has is it's versatility, you can use it in many diffrent ways and have many diffrent builds and tactics without ever looking at what your 2nd class even is. The problem is, each build will suffer in one way or another due to the fact the necromancer is an 'inbetween class'.

Support? Well the necro has it, but the monk can out do him easily.

Debuffs? Well the necro can cause you some problems, but a mesmer will cause you [b]alot of problems.

Nukes? Well, the necro can drain, making himself stronger and his enemy weaker, but.. an elementalist can do more than twice most of your spells damage, making them kill you well before you kill them.

Melee? Well um, lets see... Considering a necro has several touch related skills you would think he would be a little better at melee than say.. a monk? Or a mage? Well then you'd be completly wrong.

Dont get me wrong, i like the necro. My main character is a necro. (My first character anyway)

But lets look at this from a PvP point of view, what kind of an eight man team would you want? Where in your team does a necro fit?

And there in, is the problem. The necro can do alot of things, but for each thing he does, there is a class which can beat him at it.

Guildwars simply does'nt like necros. Lets look at armours for example: Our best armour has holy damage weakness. Is'nt that good? Ok so smiters are rare. But quite a few monks will carry atleast 1 smite. And quite a few War/monks carry bane signet and such skill simply due to its knock down effect. And when you're runnnig away and thier skill used generally for 40 damage, and a knock down hits you for 80 or more, and your on your ***, good luck getting away.

Ok so i loved the necro for his health degeration skills. It is litterly the only thing a necro does better than anyone else, he can give you a whopping -20 health degeneration using all his hp degen skills in theory. (-10 is the max unfortunetly)

Life sipheon. Life transfer. Rotting flesh. Faintheartedness. Parasitic bond. Suffering. Wither. (2 elite skills which is why i say -20)

I'm still a huge fan of the necro playstyle, even tho i know its limitations. I have tried more tactics than you will have imagined with a necro. And it's because of this i can say what i have said.

You can claim the necro is a suppor class, but you'd be wrong, if you look at their skills you might see the makings of a support class, but there are problems with this too. Needing a corpse for one. The necro is already depending on others to do things for him. Sacrificing health, for skills like order of the vampire. Ok so you have blood magic and should be able to get that health back, but you a liability until you do.

I've ad some problems fixing my new Necro/mesmer build and maybe that's why i'm typing this out of fustration rather than true beleif. But there are some problems with the necro.

Let me give you a nice example:

Skill name: Darkbond.
Description: For 30-54 seconds, whenever you receive physical damage, 75% of that damage is suffered by the closest minion of yours instead

Fine huh? Good skill for a summoning death magic user. Until you realize it's a blood magic skill and start scratching your head.

hotdogtesting
25-05-2005, 08:53
Creed,
You argue so many things against the necromancer, but, in the end, you really just "step on your own foot".

You mention that the necromancer is not as good as any other class at specific things. That exact thing is what makes the necromancer good!

The necromancer is a jack-of-all-trades. He is the backup for every class out there. In PvP, this single feature makes the necromancer worth having. It means that should any role in your PvP team fail, the necromancer can step up at least until that role can be re-established.

Is this not powerful in and of itself?

Lestrade
25-05-2005, 10:13
Creed knock it very well on the head for me.. that's my whole dilemma..
I wish that there is SOMETHING that they'll excel in, may it be support or main.. cause it's just....

... ughhh!

Nahakra Brakhir
25-05-2005, 10:30
i feel lots of negative vibrations here!!

in the role play part, necro death rules, thats one
( a thing we shouldnt forget)

and in pvp us necro's can handle ourselves pretty wel!

i have a pet, lvl 20 snow wolf, sending him out, i can do some pretty nasty things againt a enemy, spells like death swarm vile touch and life transferr are very hard hitting, getting your life transferr on 13, you make 8 degeneration at the enemy and gain it by yourself, putting that on a wizzard or mesmer and puff he is down in combination with your pet!

but our armor sucks jeah, if a warrior is on me i am death becuz my spells of death take jeez long time to cast!

we just need some goood waariors to tank and than a necro can be a real pain in the arse

fellrider
25-05-2005, 11:41
Just got a necromancer up to lvl 9 myself

funny thing is that its been really fun and i have decided to switch to this necromancer as my main,

Every class has its pro's and con's, necro is very good at what it does and that is being evil! Couple it with a mesmer and you have a really challenging class thats not going to get boring after 10 minutes as you have to really get into your skills, its not the scenario that just putting anything in your skills list will do, you have to try em all.

Have fun being a necromancer don't put it down so much :surprise:

Creed
25-05-2005, 12:13
To Hotdogtesting:

I understand your point of view. Here's the singular huge problem with that:

It's a team game. Team versus team, people on each team have dedicated roles to fill. Damage dealer. Tank. Healer. Anti-Caster. 'Necro'.

While a necro can be a 'jack-of-all-trades'. The problem lies in the fact he cannot be a jack of all trades all at once, he is still limited by which skills he chooses to go into battle with, and without knowing which part of your team will need backing up, if you try to be this 'jack of all trades' character you will be left with, several spells which dont help each other, but have a specific role based on which one of the other 5 classes in your team dies. Does that sound right to you?

Not excelling at any singular thing would be fine in a 1 v 1 PvP enviroment, but this is'nt like that. This is team vs. team and in your eight man (or woman :p ) team where do you fit a necro? Make a little list of eight classes you'd like in your perfect 8 man team. (Not including yourself as a person in the team, just to do it from a neutrel stand point.)

Would you really invite a necro into your party? What skills has he got? Are you inviting a semi-nuker? Or a semi-support role character? Has he got death magic? Is he going to be dependant on others to make corpses before he can truly act?

I still like necro, even though it does'nt sound like it. And a necro, does have good points, more versatile than any other class. But when the price of versatility, is being les than 70% as good as another class at that same role, it's simply not worth it.

I have found if you specifically design your build to disrupt one type of other class, the necro will be at his most usful.

Voldox Albatross
25-05-2005, 17:11
I have found if you specifically design your build to disrupt one type of other class, the necro will be at his most usful.

In terms of PvP, this is the important thing. For the most part, the team I am in tries to take down the healers of the other team first, and to compliment the assault, as a N/Me, I use backfire first to turn their healing spells into a double edged blade so to speak, then degeneration spells to suppliment the DPS against the enemy healer. With the healer down, I can then summon a minion from their corpse and move onto the next healer with the same stategy, or another target if there is not another healer. Again, I start off with Backfire if it is a caster (by the time of the next target, Backfire is refreshed, or close to it) and/or Empathy based on the melee capacity of the target, and the stacks of degenerations, and an AoE or two (chaos storm & suffering are my current favorites) if the enemies are in close quarters to each other. From a personal playing style, that's just my example of a Necro's support capability and the diversity it offers to compliment your teammates' assault. Of course there will be downsides; lack of corpses in PvP for minions/well spells, being easy melee fodder if a warrior should set their sights on you, power expense, casting times. Bottom line is, you try to work around them the best you possibly can.

Strung Out
25-05-2005, 17:43
Necros are support, why else would they have an entire debuff line, elites like well of power, order of the vampire, and offering of blood?

Herthbul
25-05-2005, 19:15
as a N/Me

What made you decide N/Me instead of Me/N? That's the problem really. Necro primaries are viable... if they delve heavily into their secondary. And Fast Casting beats Soul Reaping as a PvP primary attribute anyway.

Railen Shatterskull
25-05-2005, 19:41
Necros are not your typical support class. People seem to be stuck on the stereotype that a "support" character only beefs up the tanks and heals. Necros are a support class, but they support everyone in the group, not just the tanks. They're the support class for the other support classes (and the damage dealers too). Granted, well of blood doesn't do a huge amount of healing by itself, but it gives the monk a little more time to recharge. You'll never see a monk complain about a necro using it. Also, necros can boost energy regen on an ally depending on the situation. Monk low on energy, not a problem. Warrior needs to rip through a resistant mob and needs more energy to do it, not a problem. Elementalist out of juice in a long fight, not a problem.

The really nifty part about necros is not what they do on their own, but what they can do in a group to make everyone else a lot more effective. And a lot of that is based on how they mix up their skills between their two classes. Nobody said the necro was an easy class to play, and heaven knows we've all seen it played poorly from time to time. Skill choice is imperative for necros.

As for armor, yeah, we need some help on that. It's supposed to lower the resistance to holy damage, not remove it. :D How about making monks armor lower their resistance to "dark" magic? Seems fair to me, especially in pvp. Make necros the "monk killers" in the game, and the whole pvp community would be turned upside down...

yolen
25-05-2005, 20:37
As for armor, yeah, we need some help on that. It's supposed to lower the resistance to holy damage, not remove it. :D How about making monks armor lower their resistance to "dark" magic? Seems fair to me, especially in pvp. Make necros the "monk killers" in the game, and the whole pvp community would be turned upside down...


Thing is, you're already monk killers. Parasite on everybody in the party can cover up the nasty mesmer hexes so we cant remove them, you have i believe 2 different spells to fubar our enhancements. I have a 20 monk and necros are a freaking pain in the rear for me sometimes.

Unionjack
25-05-2005, 20:43
To Hotdogtesting:

I understand your point of view. Here's the singular huge problem with that:

It's a team game. Team versus team, people on each team have dedicated roles to fill. Damage dealer. Tank. Healer. Anti-Caster. 'Necro'.

While a necro can be a 'jack-of-all-trades'. The problem lies in the fact he cannot be a jack of all trades all at once,


The whole "jack-of-all-trades" concept = wrong. You simply cannot be competitive in GW, with any class, as a jack-of-all-trades. Think of any class and any concept that works well, and they're all specialists: the Healer-Monk, the Protection-Monk, the Dominator-Mesmer, the Nuker-Ele.

Necros are the most powerful class in the game, easily. In large part, because so few necros know what they're doing, so having a good necro in your group is like finding gold.

So, how can a necro best specialize?
Like another poster commented - How can a necro not be a "niche" support class, with all the elite wells, team-energy regen, etc. These are things a necro can bring to the party that no other class can...



I have found if you specifically design your build to disrupt one type of other class, the necro will be at his most usful.

I find a mesmer much better for that.

Voldox Albatross
25-05-2005, 21:10
What made you decide N/Me instead of Me/N? That's the problem really. Necro primaries are viable... if they delve heavily into their secondary. And Fast Casting beats Soul Reaping as a PvP primary attribute anyway.

Being that this is my first character post-beta (and I only played a couple Beta weekends back in October), I did not know about the unique attribute of the primary profession until much later into the game. I really just dove into the game when I first got it and went back to the manual later to fill in the blanks on concepts I either didn't fully understand or wanted to understand further, and the Primary attribute was one of those things. Now that I understand that, I would certainly consider rolling a Mesmer primary/Necro secondary PvP character, especially with that fast casting addition.

ShadisLecrou
25-05-2005, 21:20
With the question of where do you put a Necro in an 8-person team, the best answer to that is that you need a necro specializing in curses and blood. Death can be viable in PvP under the right circumstances (and with the right player), but blood and especially curses are where the Necro excels in PvP.

With the curses line, you have the ability to debuff armor, degen health, and apply conditions. And several spells to do it on alot of people at once. Now, I know most people will say "what's the point of hitting several people when you are trying to focus-fire on one?" The point is more to cause confusion in the enemy than to make a serious attempt at killing all of your enemies at once. When you have 3 or 4 players losing health, 2 or 3 poisoned, several who have disease and/or other conditions on them, it causes the enemy to start thinking defensively rather than offensively. The monks stay busy healing and removing hexes. Any players who have self-healing abilities will be using those as often as they use their offensive abilities. And it creates a wedge in their defense for your team to push through.

And in the blood line, when you throw in spells like Blood is Power or Well of Power, strip enchantment, unholy feast, etc, you decrease your team's need to play defensively.

A Necro's power in PvP really relies on being on a good team. If the rest of the team is unable to capitalize on the opportunities that a good Necro can create, then the team is probably going to lose anyway. But if a team can pull together and take advantage of the momentum-shifting powers of the Necro, they can tear up even the toughest teams.

stefaniii
25-05-2005, 21:55
What?

Here are several things off the top of my head that the necro does better than any class:
1) Damage vs High armor targets. Although the elementalist has some high damaging skills which are as effective as ignoring armor, they usually require far more energy.

Even against soft targets, some necro builds have the highest damage output in the game (suicide bomber).

2) Disenchanting. A lot of pvp builds rely heavily on enchantment gimmicks, and if they come up against a necro that uses rend enchantments, chillbains, or well of the profane they'll wish they haven't.

3) The anti-monk. Mesmers are great at keeping monks occupied, necros are great at killing them. Mark of Subversion, defile flesh, lingering curse is something only the necro can do.

4) Mana-buffs. The only class that can give party members extra mana (besides succor I suppose).

Im Bogus
25-05-2005, 23:54
As someone said.... necro is a splash of everything, and theres always some profesion thats better than him in suppor, nuke, tank, etc...

but thats the great thing about necros, they are the most versatil and variant class. U could just do what ur team needs at that moment. what team would not like someone that can handle "surprises".

Necro is the best second class for almost any other classes cause it compliments everything ur class lacks of.

Being necro is hard but if u can handle ur character, ur over most other players.

NullMad
26-05-2005, 00:03
Necros are a good team member in 8vs8 because they can be use to fill whatever gaps the rest fo the team has. Also in Tombs with large battles we can form endless minions (endelss cause of soul reaping) At lvl 18 they cause enough annoyance to everyone, but as it was said before necros need a good team to play with. And most important thing that team can do is to sit down before the battle and tell necro what they want him to do. And sifons and a barage of every life stealing skill can take out a high value target for the enemy even with half of their team pounding on me at once.

Herthbul
26-05-2005, 01:33
1) Damage vs High armor targets. Although the elementalist has some high damaging skills which are as effective as ignoring armor, they usually require far more energy.

But the Ele's have alot more energy to spend, and they have access to skills like Elemental Attunement and Ether Renewal. Trust me, an Ele/Mes with 16 Air that uses Lightning Orb, Arcane Echo (for another Lightning Orb) with Air Attunement and Elemental Attunement is going to deal far more damage than a Necro could even hope to achieve.


Even against soft targets, some necro builds have the highest damage output in the game (suicide bomber).

Ah the Dark Aura build. Hello Rend Enchantments and come again.


2) Disenchanting. A lot of pvp builds rely heavily on enchantment gimmicks, and if they come up against a necro that uses rend enchantments, chillbains, or well of the profane they'll wish they haven't.

True, but the true disenchants come in one line, Curses, and they work fine even with very little points devoted. A Ran/Nec that runs about 3 in Curses and uses Rend Enchantments helps almost as much as a Necro primary with 16 in Curses.


3) The anti-monk. Mesmers are great at keeping monks occupied, necros are great at killing them. Mark of Subversion, defile flesh, lingering curse is something only the necro can do.

Mark of Subversion or Shame? I'll take Shame (if you want the math, I could prove it, but let's just leave it at that losing energy is more detrimental than losing health). Plus you have to consider that would you rather land a Power Block or a Lingering Curse? Personally I rather land the Power Block on that Healing Prayers spell. Throw in all the other Mesmer interrupts and you'll have an anti-casting winner right there. And you have to consider that those spells are hexes and can be removed, making them pretty useless. Btw, while the skills may be good, you're not arguing why a primary Necro is better than a secondary.


4) Mana-buffs. The only class that can give party members extra mana (besides succor I suppose).

Primary Necro or Secondary Necro for a mana resevoir? I'll take the Mon/Nec with Offering of Blood or the Ele/Nec with Blood Ritual and Aura of Restoration instead.

Overall primary Necro's lack a good PvP quality. Death Magic is an awful line for PvP, as is Soul Reaping. Curses is nice, but functions just as well with few points distributed in it. And Blood Magic functions just as well on a secondary as opposed to a secondary. That Ele/Nec can use Aura of Restoration with Blood Ritual alot more effectively than a Nec/Ele could. So what's the fix? Give primary Necro's the ability to do something more effectively than another class could. Warrior's deal damage and tank, Rangers deal damage from a distance and disrupt, Mesmers are great anti-casters, Monks are great healers, Ele's are great damage dealers... so where does the Necro fit in? PvP is about cohesion between 8 specialized players. 2 jack-of-all-trades don't function nearly as well as 2 specialized players. So find a role that the primary Necro can do that no other class can, and you'll find the answer.

Lestrade
26-05-2005, 06:41
Those that supports necro being a good pvp player teamwised, just give me one good VIABLE build..

Think hard...

ShadisLecrou
26-05-2005, 18:09
I can think of plenty of good builds without having to think very hard at all. Here's a build to help take care of Monks and Mesmers:

Rend Enchantments
Soul Barbs
Wither (Or Lingering Curse if you're going more after Monks than Mesmers)
Defile Flesh
Desecrate Enchantments
Malaise
Chilblains
Plague Sending

You hit them with Desecrate enchantments, then you hit them with Rend to take them off. Soul Barbs is there so that when you hit them with Malaise and Wither, you do some damage while sucking their energy dry. Chilblains and Plague Sending damage and poison them, and slip in a Defile Flesh somewhere just to add to their life drain. Since Poison and Disease are conditions instead of hexes, alot of monks are unprepared to remove them.


Want a build to take care of warriors?

Weaken Armor
Lingering Curse
Shadow of Fear
Rigor Mortis
Faintheartedness
Enfeeble
Barbs
Parasitic Bond

This build will slow them down and make them useless and weak so that your team can annihilate them.

How about a build that's good for dispersing crowds?

Suffering
Spiteful Spirit
Shadow of Fear
Plague Sending
Mark of Pain
Enfeebling Blood
Desecrate Enchantments
Chilblains

This one works great to keep groups of enemies off your Monks and Mesmers. When half their team suddenly starts losing life and then gets poisoned, they'll either disperse or die.


And all of those are JUST using curses. So you can max out Curses and Soul Reaping, find yourself a good wand that recharges Curses faster (I have one that works 10% of the time...helps ALOT). If you want, you can make a build that uses Blood magic to get in there and be a vampire mage. Or add a secondary, like Monk, to fill in other roles. With the Necro, though, I find I hardly ever use my secondary.

blakk
26-05-2005, 21:32
necros arethe best secondary class in the game. you can put skill point in whatever specialization you choose(curses,blood, death)and get some serious bang for your buck.

think of it the necro is the specialists specialist. with a necro you can pout skill point in one atribute, and then use say 3 skill designed to compliment iether your characters weaknesses or buff your party, or buff your party by weakening your foes. there is more to the game than doing damage.


heh heh now im more exited about my ranger necro...

jasad
26-05-2005, 23:08
Sure there are other classes that can deal out more damage in one shot, but the real strength of a necro comes from their ability to make their opponents easier to kill while simultaneously making themselves harder to kill; plus the fact that most necro spells keep on giving long after you've cast them.

I play a N/W and I have found that by concentrating my skill points in blood magic, soul reaping, and axe mastery, my little dude is like a vampiric chainsaw. You have good damage capabilities, great healing abilities (self only of course :( ), plus the ability to be effective with a weapon gives your energy a chance to recharge while never once having to stop dealing out the punishment. To top it all off, that which heals you hurts others! It's win/win :happy65:

I usually hang back and start out by casting life siphon on as many opponents as I can get away with before the charging baddies get to me. Then, I activate frenzy and start hacking away at anything that comes near me. Throw in a couple of armor-peircing shots once the ol' adrenaline is pumpin', and stuff starts dying - fast.

Too many baddies at once? Throw in a vampiric touch while hacking at them with an axe for a great (and fast) finishing move that also serves to keep you in good health.

Man, I tell you. there is nothing quite as satisfying as watching your health increase while your enemies wither.

I don't really miss not having the most powerful armor on the block, or the biggest gun. I love my nuclear mosquito! :happy34:

Nefaru Firestorm
27-05-2005, 00:01
as a N/E it is quite possible to deal quite a lot of damage. I had a variance in the skills i used (blood, death, & curses. All of 'em at once) but then found it much more helpful to myself and teammates to pick one attribute and stick with it.

i have:
lvl 14 death magic (modifiers)
lvl 12 fire magic (modifiers)
lvl 7 soul reaping (modifiers)

I kill quickly then raise an army of undead servants (all types).

If you don't think Necroes do a lot of damage, raise 18 pets and see how fast something drops.

As stated by many - very few of our attacks do lots of damage in comparison to others. Aside from oh...Well of Suffering or some of the Shadow/cold attacks.

If you truly want to do plenty of damage as a pure necro, take part in nearly each attribute class available to you to not necessarily do pure damage, but degeneration.

You can get nearly -13 regen with the right combinations (suffering, well of suffering, life siphon, insidious parasite, rotting flesh, etc). I know, you can only "have" 10. That just means even if you get healed for +3, you still have max degeneration on you.

Herthbul
27-05-2005, 01:58
We've established the fact that Necro's are good in PvE, and that secondary Necro's are good in PvP. But where does the primary Necro fit in? Soul Reaping and Death Magic are lacking in PvP due to the lack of easily accessible corpses. Curses are effectve skills, but they're effective even with very little points directed their way. Blood Magic is a handy line, but for damage you're better off being an Ele, and for healing yourself you're better off being a Monk. Some people pipe up "but I'm a W/N, I need to heal myself!" Sorry pal, but face it. Monks are going to be the focused targets right off the bat, not your 80~90 AL armor, so you're aiming for damage, not healing.

Overall there just isn't a reason to be a devoted Necro player. The only line that actually requires alot of points is Blood Magic, and that's an attribute a secondary Necro can pick up quite easily. Curses? Again, easily picked up by a secondary Necro, plus you only need around ~6 in Curses for it to be very effective. Sure, you may have success as a primary Necro, but that doesn't mean that a secondary couldn't do a better job. Plus you may actually get something out of the secondary's primary attribute.

Hart
27-05-2005, 03:27
I'd have to say that the main reason to play a necro primary is because most/all the skills you plan on using are necro skills, and you want to get as much benefit as you can out of your runes.

goblintrain
27-05-2005, 20:02
Necros are not your typical support class. People seem to be stuck on the stereotype that a "support" character only beefs up the tanks and heals. Necros are a support class, but they support everyone in the group, not just the tanks. They're the support class for the other support classes (and the damage dealers too). Granted, well of blood doesn't do a huge amount of healing by itself, but it gives the monk a little more time to recharge. You'll never see a monk complain about a necro using it. Also, necros can boost energy regen on an ally depending on the situation. Monk low on energy, not a problem. Warrior needs to rip through a resistant mob and needs more energy to do it, not a problem. Elementalist out of juice in a long fight, not a problem....

This is funny. I used Well of Power to get my group through the final mission. We had healer henchies. No one ever seemed to notice the extra 5 pips of health regen & 2 pips of magic regen the well was providing, instead they just kept slobbering on themselves saying how great the healer henchies were. I never bothered pointing this out to them. There is no point. Parties tend to not notice the good things thier faithful necro does for them, & i think it will always be like that.


The really nifty part about necros is not what they do on their own, but what they can do in a group to make everyone else a lot more effective. And a lot of that is based on how they mix up their skills between their two classes. Nobody said the necro was an easy class to play, and heaven knows we've all seen it played poorly from time to time. Skill choice is imperative for necros. .... I agree. If you are looking for a simplistic formula to spell out a necro's value you are going to come short. There is nothing simplistic about them. The truth of necros is only found ingame, & not in attribute calculatoers, team builders, or strategy guides.


As for armor, yeah, we need some help on that. It's supposed to lower the resistance to holy damage, not remove it. :D How about making monks armor lower their resistance to "dark" magic? Seems fair to me, especially in pvp. Make necros the "monk killers" in the game, and the whole pvp community would be turned upside down...

Grrr... Holy damage hurts bad! Especially when it comes from such unholy creatures as those shadows! Hopefully this is going to get fixed. Otherwise i'm switching back to Bonelace. Looks better anyway!

jasad
27-05-2005, 21:06
We've established the fact that Necro's are good in PvE, and that secondary Necro's are good in PvP. But where does the primary Necro fit in? Soul Reaping and Death Magic are lacking in PvP due to the lack of easily accessible corpses. Curses are effectve skills, but they're effective even with very little points directed their way. Blood Magic is a handy line, but for damage you're better off being an Ele, and for healing yourself you're better off being a Monk. Some people pipe up "but I'm a W/N, I need to heal myself!" Sorry pal, but face it. Monks are going to be the focused targets right off the bat, not your 80~90 AL armor, so you're aiming for damage, not healing.

Overall there just isn't a reason to be a devoted Necro player. The only line that actually requires alot of points is Blood Magic, and that's an attribute a secondary Necro can pick up quite easily. Curses? Again, easily picked up by a secondary Necro, plus you only need around ~6 in Curses for it to be very effective. Sure, you may have success as a primary Necro, but that doesn't mean that a secondary couldn't do a better job. Plus you may actually get something out of the secondary's primary attribute.

You're missing the point of the Necro. It's not about swift death, it's about slow, prolonged agony. Necros are, for lack of a better word, "endurance" damage dealers. Blood Magic doesn't have any massive damaging skills, but the fact that your health gets recharged BECAUSE you are damaging someone else makes the skills extremely efficient. Soul Reaping (arguing for primary necros, now) is great because it's passive. Stuff dies, you get healed. It's that simple. How can you say there is no place for that in PvP? I haven't been in there in a couple of days, but last time I checked, people were dying in there...

Stefan
28-05-2005, 02:36
The reason to be a necro primary is to have access to necro runes, I definitely agree that soul reaping is weaker than other primary attributes, unless you're using a summoning necro.

I think most people are still missing the point on the damage the necro does. Yes, a lightning elementalist can do more damage than a blood necro against an armor 60 target, but that is too often situational. Warriors and Rangers immediately are already going to have a much higher base armor, and in the majority of cases the necro will be able to do a lot more damage using Life Siphon/Transfer, Shadow Strike, Vampiric Gaze and Dark Pact than a lightning ele. Now consider the plethora of skills like Ward against Elements, the dozen or so armor buffs (armor of earth, monk shields, etc etc), and the mantra/greater conflageration/winter combo. The fact is that there are many ways to defend against elemental damage types, while shadow and life stealing damage will always perform the damage as advertised.

Consider for example a typical necro 5 second damage burst.
Life Siphon
Life Transfer.
At this point the target is at -10 degen, our damage burst begins here.
Shadow Strike ~110 damage, 10 energy
Dark Pact ~50 damage, 5 energy,
Vampiric Gaze ~60 damage, 10 energy.
+ 100 damage from 5 seconds of health degen.

= 320 damage. This can catch players hiding behind their typical defenses completely off guard since it completely bypasses any wards or armor buffs.

Herthbul
28-05-2005, 16:59
Consider for example a typical necro 5 second damage burst.
Life Siphon
Life Transfer.
At this point the target is at -10 degen, our damage burst begins here.
Shadow Strike ~110 damage, 10 energy
Dark Pact ~50 damage, 5 energy,
Vampiric Gaze ~60 damage, 10 energy.
+ 100 damage from 5 seconds of health degen.

= 320 damage. This can catch players hiding behind their typical defenses completely off guard since it completely bypasses any wards or armor buffs.

Uh huh. So for your 45 energy, you do 320 damage, and oh look, your energy is gone. The Ele does about the same in the same amount of time and energy with Lightning Orb and Arcane Echo. Two skills, none of which is elite. You're using... 5 skils. Plus you have to consider that Life Siphon and Transfer can be removed, so that's useless. Plus the Ele's energy is going to last a million times longer. So axe this point because it's not true versus a competent Ele. Hell, one Mind Burn at lvl 16 Fire Magic does about the same damage.


You're missing the point of the Necro. It's not about swift death, it's about slow, prolonged agony. Necros are, for lack of a better word, "endurance" damage dealers. Blood Magic doesn't have any massive damaging skills, but the fact that your health gets recharged BECAUSE you are damaging someone else makes the skills extremely efficient. Soul Reaping (arguing for primary necros, now) is great because it's passive. Stuff dies, you get healed. It's that simple. How can you say there is no place for that in PvP? I haven't been in there in a couple of days, but last time I checked, people were dying in there...

Your health gets recharged? Like when are Necro's favored targets anyway? Plus since when can you heal yourself better than a Monk can? 10 Energy for a Vampiric Gaze that heals you for 50, when a Monk can heal for about 100 for 5 energy. The damage aspect? Take an ele. And as for Soul Reaping, please. The extra energy comes when you need it least. Plus there are no skills related to it, so that further devalues it for PvP.

hotdogtesting
29-05-2005, 23:41
Creed and others,

I believe you have either mis-read my statement or jumped on someone elses mis-interpretation.

When I say that a necromancer is a "jack-of-all-trades" I mean that a necromancer can choose any role and be good at it without having to depending on his secondary class.

Consider that the necromancer is the only class, where the brunt of his damage cannot be blocked, reduced, or negated (shadow damage and life steal). This means that, in PvP or PvE situation, the necromancer is the only source of damage you can always count on.

For support, the necromancer can perform combat denial, damage control, and indirect/direct healing using a pairing of curses and blood or death magic. By using common curses like Shadow of Fear, Fainheartedness, Wells, and Order spells (of Pain, of Vampire, etc.), the necromancer can either prevent many warrior builds from dealing damage (since we all know the intelligence of depending solely on adrenaline) or can keep ally warriors alive while also boosting their damage.

In tanking roles, many classes have already experienced the simple pain of dealing with NPC howlers (in the Shiverpeaks), that they can deal unblockable damage is bad, that they heal to full with one spell is worse!

From this, I hope you understand that I certainly do not mean that the necromancer should try to fill every role at the same time. I only mean that we should not pigeonhole the necromancer.

What I hate is people who automatically assume that the necromancer MUST be support. (So of course usually get passed over for mesmers and monks.)

By merit of the unblocked and un-reducable damage alone, the necromancer should be considered for more roles.

When you add that, the necromancer can perform excellent anti-caster action while not neglecting nuking duties using the blood attribute (by having Soul Leech and Mark of Subversion). It should sound alarm bells in people's heads whenever they relegate the necromancer to support only roles.


Personally, I think all necromancers can agree that they hate being the last kid to be picked for every PvP and PvE situation by people who simply don't understand the abilities of the necromancer.

jasad
01-06-2005, 00:53
Uh huh. So for your 45 energy, you do 320 damage, and oh look, your energy is gone. The Ele does about the same in the same amount of time and energy with Lightning Orb and Arcane Echo. Two skills, none of which is elite. You're using... 5 skils. Plus you have to consider that Life Siphon and Transfer can be removed, so that's useless. Plus the Ele's energy is going to last a million times longer. So axe this point because it's not true versus a competent Ele. Hell, one Mind Burn at lvl 16 Fire Magic does about the same damage.

Your health gets recharged? Like when are Necro's favored targets anyway? Plus since when can you heal yourself better than a Monk can? 10 Energy for a Vampiric Gaze that heals you for 50, when a Monk can heal for about 100 for 5 energy. The damage aspect? Take an ele. And as for Soul Reaping, please. The extra energy comes when you need it least. Plus there are no skills related to it, so that further devalues it for PvP.

Look. Nobody is going to argue with you that a Monk can heal better than a Necro, nor will anyone argue that Warriors or Ele's can deal out more damage.

I think you are missing the point. A necro does both simultaneously. If I cast Vampiric gaze/touch, you lose health, I gain health. There is no pesky pause to cast a healing spell when I am low on health. Time spent to heal yourself is time you've allowed for your opponent to do the same. Plus, overall, I spend less energy/time to do both since I am performing both actions at once.

Take your Vampiric Gaze example:
Your monk spends 5 energy to heal 100 points of health as compared to 10 energy for 50 health with VG. Ok. Let's say then, that the healing benefit of VG is worth 2.5 energy points. That leaves you with a 50 point attack for 7.5 energy points. Combine that with the fact that it takes less time to cast VG than it would take to cast your healing spell plus a subsequent attack spell and you have efficiency.

I agree that soul reaping seems useless under certain conditions, but combine Necro with Warrior or Ranger, and you can simply kill something with a weapon to recharge your energy. I especially like Warriors for this purpose as you can always ready a few adrenaline based skills for when you are low on energy. Also, don't forget that Soul Reaping is completely passive, so you gain energy when your ele teammate kills something too. Or, when the other team's ele kills something, or, when your minion/pet dies, or when the other team's minion/pet dies, etc. Trust me, it works. Better yet, don't trust me. Try it yourself.

I don't know how else to explain it that will make sense. The Necro is not about extremes of damage or healing. The Necro is about constant, unyeilding pressure. The Necro is the guy that allows the rest of your team some time to think. He/she prevents the other team from having the opportunity to think. The Necro creates opportunities and allows for breathing room. Played correctly, you seldom have to interrupt your attacks to do anything other than move.

ShadisLecrou
01-06-2005, 01:19
Uh huh. So for your 45 energy, you do 320 damage, and oh look, your energy is gone. The Ele does about the same in the same amount of time and energy with Lightning Orb and Arcane Echo. Two skills, none of which is elite. You're using... 5 skils. Plus you have to consider that Life Siphon and Transfer can be removed, so that's useless. Plus the Ele's energy is going to last a million times longer. So axe this point because it's not true versus a competent Ele. Hell, one Mind Burn at lvl 16 Fire Magic does about the same damage.


I think the previous example was a poor one. Of course when you compare the damage done by a Necro to the damage done by an Ele, the Ele is going to come out on top. If you're playing a Necro in PvP and trying to kill one target by yourself, you're doing a poor job of playing a Necro. Now, in a 1 vs. 1 situation such as farming Drakes or something like that, the above example of casting lots of life-drain spells is excellent. Because while the Necro is being healed while doing damage, the Elementalist is quickly dying. But when you're talking about PvP, you've probably got a good Monk on each side. Where the Necro really does well in PvP is being able to allow all of his teammates to do their jobs better.

For example, if I've cast a life transfer on someone, that's one healing spell my Monk can save to cast on someone else, where as during the time that an Elementalist does the same damage my Necro does, he will probably need at least one heal.

And where you have one team's warrior dishing out damage un-aided, if the other team's warrior is hacking on someone with Barbs and Weaken Armor on them, the guy with Barbs and Weaken is going down faster.

And if you have two teams that are fairly evenly matched, but one has a Death Necro on their side, then you have the potential for just a few more bodies that might tip things in their favor.


I've said before a few times in other threads, the Necro's usefulness in PvP is determined by the group that he's with, and the skill of the Necro. In fact I think that Necros and Mesmers are the two classes where player skill can make a huge difference. Also, the value of a Necro (especially a Death necro) increases in proportion to the length of the PvP match. Shorter matches means fewer corpses, which weakens Death magic and Soul Reaping. Longer matches give more corpses which means more benefit from Death and Soul Reaping.

So not all Necros will be able to jump into every PvP game and completely dominate every match. Or even hold up well alot of the time. But in the right group under the right situations, a good Necro can tip the tides one way or another, often unnoticed by most. We fly under the radar, but we leave a big impact.

Shadoh
01-06-2005, 10:32
I guess people think necromancers are underpowered just because they can't do extremely noticable damage or healing, and underestimate them, not noticing the edge we give them in the heat of battle.

Also, if you are afraid death magic and soul reaping will be next to useless in PvP, just invest in blood. Likewise, when doing quests and missions, then the death and sould reaping comes into play. Assuming of course you are able to bear investing all your points into death, sould reaping and blood.

majoho
01-06-2005, 12:13
Minions are a major distraction in pve but also in pvp SOMEONE will die (can be an ally) and you can get your minions.

Voldox Albatross
01-06-2005, 21:10
If you haven't collaborated with your PvP team beforehand about what kind of build will help them best, or if you're unsure of using a build that maxes attribute points in one or two specific attributes, you can still include Death magic in a balanced mix. Depending on your skill set, you can allocate more or less points to Death Magic, and still get a decent benefit with only 2 or 3 points in Soul Reaping. This way, you could maybe just put a minion summoning spell in your set as your only Death Magic skill, and summon minions when chance allows rather than becoming dependant on them. This is also a decent approach in PvE if you find yourself grouped with other Necro(s) and haven't had a chance to discuss your builds. I've found the only time I really needed to completely exclude Death Magic is when grouped with other Necros that want to use minions/wells, in which case I focus on hexing & DoT (curses/domination).

koji
01-06-2005, 22:48
A necro is probally not a good primary class since it's primary attribute is not worth much in the end.

After that being said, I love being an elemen/necro. I'm focused mostly on DOTs and the combo is amazing. Having inferno, imolate, suffering, rotting flesh, and fainted heart is a nasty combo with putrid explosion. Most of the spells i've listed have a fast recharge time and in pve not many enemies can survive the degen casued by the curses and the degen+damage caused by the fire. I usually throw in a few stronger spells , but i have no problems killing someone on their last leg or weakening them for a warrior to kill them with just a few slashes..

Regomantis
04-06-2005, 14:10
Well... is it me, or is necromancer generally the weakest of all the professions available at the moment?
I don't seem to do enough damage as hard as I try... I am trying very hard to learn the way of the necromancer, but the harder I try, the less confident I am of it..

Anyone please.. help me here to understand the dark ways..

It depends what you really want to be able to do. As I have used henchmen all the way to lvl 19 with my necromancer just recently switching to party since I have a reliable guild now. To get here I have simply let my horrors lead. I have primarily gone with death magic for the damage output and the army. Combined with blood magic for regeneration and survival purposes I am most of time the last standing if it every leads to that in party fights. Unfortunatly I dont remember all the spells I used with this build since I switched to a Vampiric build. However I do remember deathly swarm, vampiric gaze, putrid explosion, bone horrors and that spell which take health from a corpse being in my repertoir.

Oh and death nova is nice, but a little difficult to learn how to use. Actually it wouldnt be a bad idea to implement bone horrors as allies in the party menu. Would make it much easier for lazy me...

ericTHEross
04-06-2005, 22:07
I play a 17N/W and so far have found him extremely useful. Most of the necro players on Anet have no idea what they are doing. Few players have been in the presence of a truly great necro (not trying to imply I am one). My necro in PvP can do amazing damage with vampiric gaze, life siphon, vampiric touch and strip enchantment (ignores armour!!). Necros have the ability to tank using blood magic as well and I often get over 10 points of regen with life siphon and well of blood. There are of course ways to counter any build and this set up is no exception. I personally believe that with the variety of skills avaliable in this game that any combonation can be effective.


We've established the fact that Necro's are good in PvE, and that secondary Necro's are good in PvP. But where does the primary Necro fit in?....Overall there just isn't a reason to be a devoted Necro player. The only line that actually requires alot of points is Blood Magic, and that's an attribute a secondary Necro can pick up quite easily. Curses? Again, easily picked up by a secondary Necro, plus you only need around ~6 in Curses for it to be very effective. Sure, you may have success as a primary Necro, but that doesn't mean that a secondary couldn't do a better job.

The only reason that I went necro primary is for energy, and the ability to use necro blood runes.

Brownie Crumbler Og
07-06-2005, 06:39
wow theres alot of oppinions out there...

im thking about making a n//mo blood/smiter?? {good and bad:)}
any ideas? oppions? would this work ? some popel were saying necros hav low armor i have a freind whos lvl 20 he had really high lvl armor like 70 ...? warr is like 85..???

Defiled Immortal
10-06-2005, 00:31
[QUOTE=A primary elementalist might be able to dump more energy in a short period of time due to storage, but in a long and drawn out fight, the necro will continually recieve more energy as the mobs die, and will end up having more energy throughout the battle.QUOTE]
no offence... have u even heard of attunements... takes 70% of energy cost back after u cast (elemental attunement + the atunement of your choice). i know this is out of topic but i had to bring that up.

Defiled Immortal
10-06-2005, 01:12
[QUOTE=]A primary elementalist might be able to dump more energy in a short period of time due to storage, but in a long and drawn out fight, the necro will continually recieve more energy as the mobs die, and will end up having more energy throughout the battle.[QUOTE]
no offence... have u even heard of attunements... takes 70% of energy cost back after u cast (elemental attunement + the atunement of your choice). i know this is out of topic but i had to bring that up.
I have found the n/me strong in pvp... untill u got noticed... n/w is VERY strong in PvP... 18 n/me... started with a war but i deleated and made drainer.

KillBear
10-06-2005, 11:16
Lot's of good comments here. Altough what people speaking for the necros
most of the time seem to forget. Is that you can blood & curse as a secondary
necro aswell. I'm all for necros really, I'm one my myself (N/Me). The thing is I cannot
find a good reason why to be a primary Necro. Even in the PvE they seem to
have just forgotten about us.

In all honesty this is my first time thru the game (Just got to fire islands) So I'm
pretty sure I still have alot to learn. BUT, like I said , I feel kinda left out at
times. At Droknars I decided to please the collector and get a cesta of him.
Well I got one, but the thing is it improves skills using SOUL REAPIN 20% &
skils using the same attrb. are 20% faster. Now how is that going to help me?

I don't know about the armors other classes have, as I said first time at it. But
my necro feels kinda weak to me. I mean every other class can go out soloing
abit. Necros rarely can do that, which piuts them in a disadvantage in PvE. I
know it's a group game, but money is still a issue there.

Niceee... I'm finally here, I think I'l get the 15k armor. Oh wait I think not. It's
Exactly the same as the one from Droknars. So what's the point or necros
weren't important enough to finnish untill the game was relesed?

Even the fact that it is very hard come across a necro weapon is fantastic.
All of the good Golden/Purple weapons i have seen that req some necro attrb.
Improve skills for other classes. Maybe it's just bad luck? Anyway it's small
things like these in the game that makes me feel like necros were kinda left
out. Am I complaining because I don't know better or do I have a point here?
I don't know you tell me. But so far people claiming to show how necro is
usefull have only given examples which would work for a secondary necro
aswell. Soul reaping only comes to play when shredding large mobs in PvE
then it will give you some sort of flow of mana. othe than that it doesn't seem
to be the deal breaker that other classes have.

I still like my necro and like playing him. I like to be in the shadows doing the
dirty work. But had I known what I know now. I most likely would have chosen
another primary.

hotdogtesting
10-06-2005, 19:56
Want to go solo'ing with the necromancer?

Just slap on Aura of the Lich and Consume Corpse with your selection of life steal spells. Oddly enough, eventhough Aura of the Lich halves all healing, it does not halve the healing from Vampiric spells. Odd little coincedence, no?

The thing is a necromancer depends on his skills more than most other classes. As a devote necromancer player since the WPE, I can say that I often go exploring or questing for that certain skill. Unlike other classes which can just stick with one staple spell through most of the game, the necromancer must often change his skill loadout depending on the situation.

Other classes tend to stick to the same spell, with only minor variations. What is Phoenix but a bigger Meteor? However, the necromancer really starts coming into its own when the late game spells start coming into his repetoire.


Now for PvP? If we necromancers are so horrible at PvP, why are we the ones that seem to always bring down the foes that everyone else give up on?

From my experience in PvP, whenever a warrior breaks our defense lines... we can expect the elementalists, mesmers, and monks to drop pretty quick, except the necromancer. Why? Simply because the experienced necromancer has learned (in his quest to acquire more spells) to be far more efficient at skill use, evasion, and general tactics.

The necromancer class is certainly a steep learning class. You can't go expecting it to start out strong like the warrior or elementalist, but, at later stages, hardly anything can compare to the necromancer's ability to take on any challenge.

KillBear
10-06-2005, 22:05
Yes and yes, I never said necros are bad. But that doesnt give a reason to be
necro as primary. That is what I want to hear. Necro skills are certainly great
in many situations. But what makes you to pick necro as a primary over the
other classes, is what interests me. Because you want to use the runes?
Does necro have better armor than lets say a monk? tell me instead of just
ranting on about how the skills are usefull. I know they are, as I said I am a
necro myself. It just seems that if I would have chosen another primary my guy
would have gained something. Let's face it soul reaping isn't all that it is cranked
up to be.

Hart
10-06-2005, 22:32
Yes and yes, I never said necros are bad. But that doesnt give a reason to be
necro as primary. That is what I want to hear. Necro skills are certainly great
in many situations. But what makes you to pick necro as a primary over the
other classes, is what interests me. Because you want to use the runes?
Does necro have better armor than lets say a monk? tell me instead of just
ranting on about how the skills are usefull. I know they are, as I said I am a
necro myself. It just seems that if I would have chosen another primary my guy
would have gained something. Let's face it soul reaping isn't all that it is cranked
up to be.

Actually, YES. Necromancers get the Tormentors and Necrotic sets which are 70 AC max instead of 60 AC max. You take additional holy damage; but 70 AC vs everything but holy is better than 60 AC vs everything but (insert element here) that appears on other caster armor.

Necromancer skills also tend to get more out of runes because we only have 3 skill lines. We have the best self healing outside of a monk and in some cases beyond even what a monk can do to heal themselves, and the level 12+ section is where you get the huge bonuses to skills like Life Siphon, Life Transfer, etc. Not that a necro sub can't get 12 in Blood for 3 pip Siphon, but it takes 97 points for them where we can spend 77 and a minor rune for more points into Death or Curses.

Finally, level 16 Death Magic can cause serious chaos in a way that level 12 Death Magic simply isn't capable of, especailly in PvP. It can get seriously ugly in there with a few Death Magic skills (no, not the animates >.<).

Aeazel Arivico
11-06-2005, 06:44
once upon a time i put points into soul reaping, found it rather weak, took points out, and put it in other, more interesting, attributes (especially as a n/e).

my reason for sticking with my necro? vanity. he looks nifty.

i wish i could concern myself with a max build, but as others have said, the necro doesn't have a necessarily "max" build to attain at some point or another.

until anet decides to change the necro (or if it doesn't), i'll just enjoy the necromancer's scarification, which may or may not be the wisest decision.

i have wrestled with the decision to delete and remake, but for now i have other characters to play, and wish to see if anything changes.

but to agree with you, i haven't really considered my necro as viable for pvp beyond what my me/n could possibly be.

Voldox Albatross
13-06-2005, 17:02
If they tied the overall performance of certain types of Necro skills to the level of Soul Reaping, it would certainly make that primary attribute more worthwhile instead of only when something nearby dies. Perhaps it could be balanced as such: for every 2 points of Soul Reaping, the Necro gains 1 power and spells exploiting corpses are 10% more powerful & cost 10% less power to cast. Something to that degree, maybe, would make a Necro primary more worthwhile.

ShadowmageIX
14-06-2005, 14:24
I played a necro primary through most of the BWEs and in the end I ended up playing mostly pure necro.

Necro is a hard class to play, you need to be on the ball, all the time, to exploit your situational spells to the fullest.

That said, there's no greater joy than being in the tombs, with three teams beating eachother up on and around the altar, and pressing your putrid explosion key 5-6 times wiping entire TEAMS in one fell swoop...

Keir M
14-06-2005, 15:01
Perhaps it could be balanced as such: for every 2 points of Soul Reaping, the Necro gains 1 power and spells exploiting corpses are 10% more powerful & cost 10% less power to cast.

Nooo - that would be aweful. Lack of corpses in PvP is what makes Soul Reaping weak so adding better corpse exploitation would not help - it would hurt Necro's using non-corpse based strategies.

The way I'm looking at it if I have about level 5 in Soul Reaping thats only costing 15 sttribute points and I get 5 mana everytime someone dies. That seems decent to me.

GaryArmstrong
29-08-2005, 06:47
Im a N/Me.
The reason why i picked a necro primary is because i think that necros are pretty much last target.

Seriously, who would you target first? Whose more of a threat to a group?
Eles for their massive dmg, monks for their ability to keep the team intact, Mes for their "do this and you pay for it" type. What does necros have? Nothing.

Necros are seen as crappy dmg dealer, but to repeat, necros are a support class. I play a necro, and hell..im the best one necro in the guild. The warriors love me. We usually play a build of 3 warriors, 3 monks 1 ranger and 1 necro.

My job is to bascially render the warriors target useless. Rigor mortis, weaken armor, inspire hex and hex breaker. All of the enemy warriors wont target me, cuz they got the 3 monks to worry about. The Eles are all over the place trying to take out the monks. Mesmers are def trying to shut down the monks. The ranger on my team is to bascially shut down any casters who trys and take me on.

The average player would target the hard hitting Eles and the monks first. The last one they look at is the necro because they see no use for them They dont do much dmg, they cant really heal. Thats the advantage of being a necro primary.


IMO.

LilithSilvermoon
29-08-2005, 08:35
Necros used to be able to do quick chain dmg (putrid) before they killed that, but still necros r very strong in terms of using hexes and stuff, wat peeps dont realize is that a few curse and hexes, life transfer being one, is even more effective when u reach the 14 att pt mark. That only necro rpim can do, o and btw the death line of necro spells works well as a sub, but if u have soul reaping u wont need to watch ur mp constantly and wait for death corpse cuz most of the skills u'll get enuf mp from soul after someoen dies anyways

btw who said necro cant do dmg, i'm currently experimenting on a necro spike build and if i'm not the first target they attack, 15 sec into the fight i can spike someone from full to dead in under 8sec =) only problem is to figure out how to NOT die when i'm preparing for the spike x.x

Vexed Arcanist
29-08-2005, 18:30
Okay, funny story. I had finished the game with my necro when I decided I needed to cap the Lich Elite. So I go to Hell's, setup as my usual Blood Support switched to Monk secondary for Draw Conditions and Rebirth. Take BiP and WoB, max blood, high death, rest in SR. So I get a group...

We start fighting, we have 2 eles and a Ranger...and I notice no Winter? One Ele is fire, the other air....but no winter? So I am max blood, pimping the monks and sometimes the eles, and stuff is dying slow due to....no Winter....

I cast Deathly Swarm....everything loses about 15-20% of it's health...hrm...

Deathly Swarm is also incredibly fast recycle.

Now on the general original topic, there is no other profession I enjoy more in PvE than my Necro. When I want to solo I go minions. When I want to group I go Blood. I keep both maxed and just switch rune sets. Either way, non-minion necros are terrific in all situations. Minions aren't Infused, so later missions skip minions and use your other death spells if you are death, or blood if you prefer support.

(as a note, I used Life Siphons for degen and regen while BiPing in Hell's, combined with Deathly Swarm at high Death, was rather effective).

LilithSilvermoon
30-08-2005, 09:38
deathly swarm is a good pve skill, not so much pvp tho since the 3 sec cast time is really a pain relative to the dmg, deadly chills (the upgraded ver.) is now a much better choice if u decided to go death and need a dmg spell

whoever was in arena last nite probably saw my spike build, as effective as it is i need to be left alone for a good 15sec before i can do it =/ and that usually dont happen. t.t another build down the drain

july
31-08-2005, 10:26
The true power of Necros comes from the Death line of spells. Soul reaping and corpse manipulation are the best advantages that the necro gets over other classes. The problem is that corpses tend to be in short supply in PvP, meaning most groups will be operating at less than 100% efficiency until they can generate some corpses.

What this means for the Necro is that their advantages tend to either snow ball or wither away. If they gain momentum, they tend to keep and cultivate it. If they can't get the upper hand, however, they're stuck, and with a necro in the group it's not always as easy to get the upper hand over, say, a similar group that took a monk instead.

I think if you're serious about a PvP necro build, you need to include a strong caster secondary (no rangers or warriors), and you need to focus on death magic. Otherwise you're just a poor man's this or that, and you'll wind up as the weak cog in your team's well oiled machine.

july
31-08-2005, 12:41
A couple of other things worth mentioning:

-These necros that "deal no damage" have one of the most powerful spikes in the game in in the form of Putrid Explosion. That's 10 energy for 100+ damage to multiple targets. It has no cool down, meaning that if you manage to take someone out with it, you can use it again and laugh as the horrified monks are suddenly in *way* over their head. They also have the largest spike heal in the game with Taste of Death. Divine Healing comes in second, followed by another necro skill, Soul Feast. Greth's Balance potentially beats all of those spells in terms of potential spike damage AND healing.

-If you think soul reaping is worthless, it's probably because you only put 3 points into it. If the problem is that dead people are too few and far between to make soul reaping worth it, then really you just aren't putting enough into the skill. I realize it's difficult to justify 10 points of soul reaping when there's no skills tied to it, but for a pure necro build it's really not that bad. Besides, all things being equal, you'll get more points of energy from soul reaping over the course of a battle than you will from energy storage.

-The current GvG climate is just begging for a good necro build to start mopping the floor with corpses. Most teams have enough spikers that a corpse or two will pop up at least within the first 10-15 seconds of the game. These corpses can be a *huge* advantage if you let them. They serve as minions, powerful nukes, massive spike heals, and group degen/regens that would totally out class the elementalist and monk equivalents if it weren't for the corpse requirement. The corpses are there to use, and if even if you don't find them to be that great, taking advantage of them is certainly better than allowing the other team to have free reign over them.

Arkhan The Black
31-08-2005, 12:54
I have played with my N/W since last beta and he kick major ***.

But the best part of being a Necromancer is that you will look much better then any other spellcasters. They are all so jealus of our good looks and emotes.

LilithSilvermoon
31-08-2005, 19:56
A couple of other things worth mentioning:

-These necros that "deal no damage" have one of the most powerful spikes in the game in in the form of Putrid Explosion. That's 10 energy for 100+ damage to multiple targets. It has no cool down, meaning that if you manage to take someone out with it, you can use it again and laugh as the horrified monks are suddenly in *way* over their head. They also have the largest spike heal in the game with Taste of Death. Divine Healing comes in second, followed by another necro skill, Soul Feast. Greth's Balance potentially beats all of those spells in terms of potential spike damage AND healing.

-If you think soul reaping is worthless, it's probably because you only put 3 points into it. If the problem is that dead people are too few and far between to make soul reaping worth it, then really you just aren't putting enough into the skill. I realize it's difficult to justify 10 points of soul reaping when there's no skills tied to it, but for a pure necro build it's really not that bad. Besides, all things being equal, you'll get more points of energy from soul reaping over the course of a battle than you will from energy storage.

-The current GvG climate is just begging for a good necro build to start mopping the floor with corpses. Most teams have enough spikers that a corpse or two will pop up at least within the first 10-15 seconds of the game. These corpses can be a *huge* advantage if you let them. They serve as minions, powerful nukes, massive spike heals, and group degen/regens that would totally out class the elementalist and monk equivalents if it weren't for the corpse requirement. The corpses are there to use, and if even if you don't find them to be that great, taking advantage of them is certainly better than allowing the other team to have free reign over them.


First of all putrid has a recast of 5 sec now, yes they nerf it, welcome to last week :p

Grenth balance spike is wat i was experimenting, sadly, unless u R left alone for 15 sec, u will NOT get off ur spike cuz ur hp will be so low that it draws attention. (definitely cannot start with super low hp cuz that would bring everyone's attention to u rite off the bat and u gonna die quite fast) But If u DO manage to dodge attention until u get low enuf hp....well i manage to kill a target from full to 0 in less than 8 sec.

The fact that pvp lacks corspe is y necro's death line is so "useless" at the start of a battle. Now that they nerfed putrid it no longer serves as a "chain" nuke, soul feast remains a mean to recover ur hp, but i find more and more necros r not utilitizing corpse in hoh, is almost like they made a necro only to use putrid now that putrid is gone they dunno wat to do. But there ARE many other corpse spells that can be quite useful. For ex, well of profane, altho at high cost, well of profane is excellent against a smite group since the first target that dies on ur team will probably be close to one or several targets with bal's aura, zealot fire and such on them, all gone.

Comsume Corpse is another way to use corspe now it actually adds nrg :p I wouldnt recommand well of power but if u think u can beat peeps to corpse then u can try that to give ur team quite an advantage, altho i've yet to see ANYONE put up a well of power quick enuf yet :p

Necros doesnt do spike dmg, doesnt shutdown monks, but thats not their "job" since necros have rend enchants, drain enchants, and chilblains.They can completely destroy a build that needs enchantments, and that happens a lot nowadays since everyone thinks NR is gone and is enchantment happy days :p Along with several warrior shutdown spells to save ur monks from getting pounded by warriors.

Hecates Scourge
03-09-2005, 01:51
well i used to think that soul reaping sucked too, and was disappointed with my choice to be necro primary, but then i got to thinking hey maybe i will give it a try in pvp random team. and in the random people drop faster than george bush's ratings. if you have a sould reap of 10 and 3 people die in the first 3 mins of battle that is 30 energy and that is the bare min of people dieing. take in the effect of people being rezed and then die and rezed. you can get quite a bit of energy out of that dumb warior or that overcocky ranger who thinks they are all of that and a bag of potatoe chips. now as for team areas i do not know i have never been there so i guess that the death ratio is a little less but i don't know i never have gotten the privelage to be on a team. people will always die and having a ranger with spirts is even more of a plus the ranger's spirts can be little batteries along with minions if you go death you can get walking time bombs that blow up then you can putrid them i don't think an ele can get off that much of aoe in a short amount of time with quick recharge and that 10 extra energy you get when your bomb blows up. well this is just my opinion i am not saying i am right by far i am not right there is no profession that sux in guild wars it is just how you play the game. as for me i think warriors suck only because i have no idea how to really play them.

awelcomecomatose
03-09-2005, 03:21
I don't know why every one thinks the necro is so weak and those who think other wise think a strong necro is dependant on the secondary profession.
My necro is a N/E and when i first started i used skills on both sides but now I dont use a single part of my secondary profession. My Blood is 15 death 13 reaping 8 and curses 5 to take up the left over attributes. Then superior rune of vigor and health mods on my weapons. When a battle starts my guy is pretty weak but the moment something dies my necros power grows almost exponentially as more and more things die. A good necros power scales with the strength of your team. The necro is capable of huge damage both directly and through other members in your group. If your team is holding their weight then your necro should have no problem. The Necro is not a solo character but should be considered a necessity for groups.

Arias Tama
03-09-2005, 21:31
I use Shadow strike that deals like almost 100 dmg in one time, combined with life transfer and while spamming dark pact i can take most warriors out within 10 seconds to make up with the sacrifice i use mending works perfectly.
The best i like about the necro is that the damage ignores armor