PDA

View Full Version : About reduce damage from armors



verytired
25-05-2005, 21:18
Hey guys, i was wondering something, my bad if it has already been posted but i didn't see it...anyways right now something is boggling my mind...

The knight set amor that says "Reduce physical damage", exactly how much is reduced???

Also who reduces more The AC SET vs. The Knight Set.?

I also heard that the reduce damage does not stack...is this true?

i'm just really confused on the whole thing on how the armor system works in this game...higher def or reducing damage :confused:

GammaRay
25-05-2005, 21:28
Unlike some games, your armor is not "collective." Attacks have a chance to hit each different part of your body, and it takes the armor at that part of the body into account when it calculates the damage. Auto-hitting spells like lightning strike spells and such use the chest piece automatically as the target. A good reason to have any lightning-resistant armor on the chest. 8)

As for the "reduces damage from attacks" and "reduces damage from physical attacks," I don't know. It might function like a Minor Rune of Absorption or something, or it may be some small percentage decrease -- someone will need to do some extensive testing to find out.

Agonotheta
25-05-2005, 22:17
Unlike some games, your armor is not "collective." Attacks have a chance to hit each different part of your body, and it takes the armor at that part of the body into account when it calculates the damage. Auto-hitting spells like lightning strike spells and such use the chest piece automatically as the target. A good reason to have any lightning-resistant armor on the chest. 8)

As for the "reduces damage from attacks" and "reduces damage from physical attacks," I don't know. It might function like a Minor Rune of Absorption or something, or it may be some small percentage decrease -- someone will need to do some extensive testing to find out.
how did you learn this? as far as I know, no feedback in game can tell you you're being hit in a certain area, and the book that came with the game is absolutely useless as far as learning about in-game mechanics. Then again, I suppose it would make sense considering each piece of the armor is the same armor level (in another game, if your gloves were 50 and your hauberk was 50, removing the hauberk but keeping the gloves would be the same as keeping the hauberk but not the gloves... obviously that wouldn't be true.)

Death Dragon
25-05-2005, 22:41
There are 5 parts of armor we can wear:

Headpiece: usually gives an additional bonus of +1 to an attribute.
Chestpiece: This is where you get hit most often. (Spells auto hit this area)
Leggings: This is the second most often place you will get hit.
Gloves/Handwraps: Small chance to be hit. Equal to the Boots/Sandals.
Boots/Sandals: Small chance to be hit. Equal to the Boots/Sandals.

When Armor gives a bonus like: Reduce Physical Damage or Reduce Damage, it usually reduced it by 2 or so, and does not stack with runes of Absorbsion or other armor parts with the same bonus. (its like having a rune of Absorbsion in it already, but you can still add a rune).

Armor with bonuses like: +10 Vs. Physical or other bonuses like +30 Vs. Elemental, stick with that individual armor piece, and your whole armor can consist of them.

Think of it this way, the larger the bodypart the armor is protecting, the higher the % it will be hit. And almost all of the information I learned was from these forums, back in the Beta times of January to April, for me.

Hope this helps.

Thervold
25-05-2005, 22:58
how did you learn this? as far as I know, no feedback in game can tell you you're being hit in a certain area, and the book that came with the game is absolutely useless as far as learning about in-game mechanics. Then again, I suppose it would make sense considering each piece of the armor is the same armor level (in another game, if your gloves were 50 and your hauberk was 50, removing the hauberk but keeping the gloves would be the same as keeping the hauberk but not the gloves... obviously that wouldn't be true.)
Some people (not me) have spent a great deal of time learning the mechanics during the beta events. Some of the fansites listed from the official GW website have explainations of the mechanics, and all agree that armor is location based. I guess you could test it out by only wearing one piece of armor and removing the rest. For the chest, 3 out of 8 hits physical against you should be low while the other 5 would be higher. (2/8 for legs, 1/8 for head, hands, or feet). Spell damage location could be tested in a similar manner. They have also determined that every 40 points of armor effectively halves the damage taken.

Joe_Synner
25-05-2005, 23:34
you sure absorption runes dont stack with the armors inherent dmg reduced mod?

Death Dragon
26-05-2005, 01:41
A friend of mine used one and didnt notice a difference, same monsters, same damage.

Neo Alastor
26-05-2005, 02:43
So the higher def Knight armor is better cuz you can always put in an absorption rune?

Pan Sola
26-05-2005, 17:46
For the chest, 3 out of 8 hits physical against you should be low while the other 5 would be higher. (2/8 for legs, 1/8 for head, hands, or feet). Spell damage location could be tested in a similar manner. They have also determined that every 40 points of armor effectively halves the damage taken.

How does equipping a shield (or not) factor into this? Does it simply add an additional place that can be hit? Does it increase defense value for all parts? Or does it mean there is actually an additional part that is totally unprotected if you don't equip a shield?

Torm Shadowbane
26-05-2005, 17:58
From my understanding (and this is what makes Shields very useful) is that each time you are hit the Armor from your shield is factored into that hit. So if you have 80% on your chest armor, and 16% on your shield your armor rating for that piece of armor is really 96%. (I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that is how it works.)

diseased maggot
29-05-2005, 05:17
My warrior has armor:

head: 59armor, no reduced damage (dwarven helm of some shat)
Chest: 50armor, reduced damage (ascalon armor) + reduced damage (min rune absorption)
Arms: 50 armor, reduced damage (ascalon armor)
Legging: 50 armor, reduced damage (ascalon armor)
Feet: 50 armor, reduced damage (Ascalon armor)

When i fight wavebreak margoyles, tehre are 3 different damages that i take.

0 damage
2 damage
4 damage

most of the time i get hit for 0, or 2 damage, and soemtimes for 4 damage
So i know that if you have a minor (major or superior) run of absorption it will only apply to the piece of armor that you put it on, not the whole set.

Why? because if it applied to the whole set then i should only be taking two different damages not three different damages

GADefence
29-05-2005, 06:17
Why? because if it applied to the whole set then i should only be taking two different damages not three different damages

Minor only blocks one damage. You might have been taking 3 and 5 without it.

OldPete
31-05-2005, 09:33
Ok question might be stupid but I just have to ask: Is there guideline to tell what armor is better than the other?

I arrived in the desert yesterday (was late so I forgot the name of the location) and went to the armorer to get my armor upgraded...and then I was totaly confused.

Normaly I go for the most valuable armor because I thought "higher value = better quality/protection"

But this simple rule failed totaly when I looked over the different armors. Now I think the price depends on the materials used, one armor was made of 18 iron and had a value of 80 something, another one with exactly the same stats and using some steel for crafting had a value of 140 something.

Now I wonder, which pices shall I buy? What is better, armor 76 and +10 armor or armor 71 and +20?
Or what about armor 71, +10 and reduces damage??
And why should someone buy a 71+20 piece while for the same price he could get an energy+1 armor 71+20 piece? Only the look is different. And this is a little unfair in my opinion, because if people dont like the look of the +energy armor as it is now (I dont like it), they either have to stick with the other armor or if they realy need the energy they have to wear the bad-looking one.

As long as the +energy armor does not have some sort of disadvantage over the other armor (and the crafting materials needed are no point here), I see no reason why not having two types of look for each typ or armor:
2 types of armor with energy plus
2 types of armor without energy plus
Ok, propably no one would buy the later one, but at least it would be fair then :)

this_barb
31-05-2005, 10:56
Knights or Ascalon set bonuses do not stack with each other.

With that said, you only need 1 piece of the set equipped to obtain the "damage reduction" bonus for your entire body.

I would believe it to be -2 damage or equivalent to a Superior Absorption rune with 1 major difference...

The damage reduction obtained from those 2 sets (I don't know if the damage reduction on Ascalon set is accurate as I have only tested this with Knight's set) applies to all types of damage (excluding DOT) while the Absorption runes only apply to physical damage.

this_barb
31-05-2005, 10:58
My warrior has armor:

head: 59armor, no reduced damage (dwarven helm of some shat)
Chest: 50armor, reduced damage (ascalon armor) + reduced damage (min rune absorption)
Arms: 50 armor, reduced damage (ascalon armor)
Legging: 50 armor, reduced damage (ascalon armor)
Feet: 50 armor, reduced damage (Ascalon armor)

When i fight wavebreak margoyles, tehre are 3 different damages that i take.

0 damage
2 damage
4 damage

most of the time i get hit for 0, or 2 damage, and soemtimes for 4 damage
So i know that if you have a minor (major or superior) run of absorption it will only apply to the piece of armor that you put it on, not the whole set.

Why? because if it applied to the whole set then i should only be taking two different damages not three different damages

I do believe their damage is variable (similar to a wand doing 11-22 damage, you can hit anywhere in between 11 through 22).

I am 99% positive that absorption runes only affect physical damage. I have tested this myself.

PowerK
31-05-2005, 11:09
Lol. Contradicting results/opinions/experiences... this thread makes me even more confused.

this_barb
31-05-2005, 11:17
Lol. Contradicting results/opinions/experiences... this thread makes me even more confused.

Here is how I got my results.

I farmed Flesh Golems with Full Knights set.

*They did 0-5 damage against me (proving they did variable damage)

I switch all my gear to Gladiator's set besides the Knights gloves

*They did 0-3 damage to me (never went higher than 3)

I took off the Knight's gloves to test my theory

*They did 0-5 damage to me again (proving that the bonus applies to your entire body with just 1 item)

Digital Bath
31-05-2005, 11:44
Here is how I got my results.

I farmed Flesh Golems with Full Knights set.

*They did 0-5 damage against me (proving they did variable damage)

I switch all my gear to Gladiator's set besides the Knights gloves

*They did 0-3 damage to me (never went higher than 3)

I took off the Knight's gloves to test my theory

*They did 0-5 damage to me again (proving that the bonus applies to your entire body with just 1 item)

So then, if this is the case, then people would only the complete set (knights or ascalon) for looks and to match up right? lol Interesting to know. Now I can craft some ascalon gloves or whatnot and throw them on my character. Do you think it works the same with boots? I don't see any reason why it shouldn't.

SonOfRah
31-05-2005, 12:09
*sneak preview* (aka, you'll see....)


Absorption

The absorption property can be found both on the warrior’s knight/ascalon armor, as well as on runes of absorption. It works in the exact same way as bonus damage, except that it is the opposite. This damage reduction is only applied to damage that come from an attack. An attack is defined as hitting someone with a weapon.

If you are uncertain if a skill is classed as an attack, open up your skill list in the game, and set your skill ordering option to “type” and it will show you the skills that are counted as an attack. E.g. "Bow Attack", "Sword Attack".

The following is the bonuses granted from the absorption property:

Knight’s armor: -2
Ascalon armor: -2
Minor rune: -1
Major rune: -2
Superior rune: -3

The effects of the ascalon/knights armor will stack with the runes. Thus, the maximum absorption a single player can get is -5.

huxley maximus
31-05-2005, 19:41
Here is how I got my results.

I farmed Flesh Golems with Full Knights set.

*They did 0-5 damage against me (proving they did variable damage)

I switch all my gear to Gladiator's set besides the Knights gloves

*They did 0-3 damage to me (never went higher than 3)

I took off the Knight's gloves to test my theory

*They did 0-5 damage to me again (proving that the bonus applies to your entire body with just 1 item)
So my superior absorption on my chest piece applies to whole body? I like that :D

taiwf
31-05-2005, 20:27
does -3 damage mean much? I haven't played my wa character and got a shield with -3 damage. Is it a useful shield ? Its quite valuable tho, can sell shop for 260.

huxley maximus
31-05-2005, 20:47
does -3 damage mean much? I haven't played my wa character and got a shield with -3 damage. Is it a useful shield ? Its quite valuable tho, can sell shop for 260.
it's -4....

minor -2
major -3
superior -4

Yes it means a lot...-3 damage with shield is the best shield :D. If you have a health mod on that too you are in business.

SonOfRah
01-06-2005, 03:42
it's -4....

minor -2
major -3
superior -4


Incorrect. You might want to inform whoever told you that that they are wrong. If you figured it out yourself using the damage equations - know that the damage equation has slightly changed (yet again) which would of caused the error.

The correct values are listed in my post on the first page.

Horus Vindictive
01-06-2005, 04:37
so what this all boils down to.. is i can use say the knight boots or something.. and then use platemail and the reduction bonus from the nights will go to all pieces and placing and runes of absorb would be pointless on such?? or would it be okay to put the runes for more physical damage reduction?? or dont they stack?? lost on that aspect..

Hurin66
01-06-2005, 05:05
Maybe this will clear things up:

Knights and Ascalon Armor with the (reduces damage from physical attacks), reduces damage per piece. Knights Legging will reduce damage from physical attacks that hit your legs, boots will reduce damage that hit you feet etc.

Contrary to that Absorption Runes work only one and they work for all your armor, so a superior absorption rune in your gloves will have effect on all parts of your body. (Some people say that knights and ascalon armor damage reduction does not stack with absorption rune damage reduction, but as far as i know this is uncofirmed.)

SonOfRah
01-06-2005, 05:31
Some people say that knights and ascalon armor damage reduction does not stack with absorption rune damage reduction, but as far as i know this is uncofirmed
It has been confirmed. some Basin members did some testing which revealed that 1) absorption runes now stack (previously they did not) and 2) the damage equation was slightly changed again.

huxley maximus
01-06-2005, 23:29
Incorrect. You might want to inform whoever told you that that they are wrong. If you figured it out yourself using the damage equations - know that the damage equation has slightly changed (yet again) which would of caused the error.

The correct values are listed in my post on the first page.
I have heard about even amounts of people state both so i dont know what to believe.

huxley maximus
01-06-2005, 23:30
It has been confirmed. some Basin members did some testing which revealed that 1) absorption runes now stack (previously they did not) and 2) the damage equation was slightly changed again.
no way....hmmmmm well lets see then...one absorption on breast plate, one on leggings, swordmanship on helmet, vigor on gloves and strength/tactics on boots sounds good.

Xiux X
02-06-2005, 03:35
Well, in the end, it's skill that determines whether you live through the tough fights. A few points of damage reduction here or there might make a difference, but it's not likely. Anything that can make a warrior with all of their hit points and heavy armor go down to his/her last few hit points is most likely going kill them anyway, and the little mergoyles that deal a few damage each aren't that much of a threat. I've experimented with the different sets, and for me, I'm just going with what looks the coolest.

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 04:14
no way....hmmmmm well lets see then...one absorption on breast plate, one on leggings, swordmanship on helmet, vigor on gloves and strength/tactics on boots sounds good.
no, what i meant was that absorption runes stack with knights/ascalon armor. The most absorption a single player can get is -5 (-2 from armor, -3 from sup rune). Previously (couple of BWE ago) the absorption runes did not stack with the armor bonus.

Identical runes still cannot stack.

Also,
you can trust my information 100% When you have pure data to work with plus are the one to figure out the damage equation - its easy to figure out changes and effects.

edit//
absorption is only for weapon attacks. Its not going to do you a world of good versus a elementalist's lightning orb.

dirtycash
02-06-2005, 06:01
no, what i meant was that absorption runes stack with knights/ascalon armor. The most absorption a single player can get is -5 (-2 from armor, -3 from sup rune). Previously (couple of BWE ago) the absorption runes did not stack with the armor bonus.

Identical runes still cannot stack.

Also,
you can trust my information 100% When you have pure data to work with plus are the one to figure out the damage equation - its easy to figure out changes and effects.

edit//
absorption is only for weapon attacks. Its not going to do you a world of good versus a elementalist's lightning orb.

I trust your info. Do you care to comment on the fact that only 1 piece of a set will grant you the -2?

EcHoMaN
02-06-2005, 06:14
I trust your info. Do you care to comment on the fact that only 1 piece of a set will grant you the -2?
if you get hit on the peice that has -2 yeah

dirtycash
02-06-2005, 06:18
if you get hit on the peice that has -2 yeah

others were saying that the -2 applied to every piece of armor you had, regardless if you have the complete set or not.

Hurin66
02-06-2005, 06:29
No that is not so, the armor reduction is -2 for the specific piece but the rune of absorption reduction (not to be confused with armor reduction) applies to all your armor.

EcHoMaN
02-06-2005, 06:34
others were saying that the -2 applied to every piece of armor you had, regardless if you have the complete set or not.
every1 should read this and stfu then ;)unless they decided to change the game machanics recently
<EDIT BY CHANTAL: Link removed. You must first ask a mod prior to linking outside. Secondly, the info you linked to is incorrect. Thirdly, you must show far more respect for others in these forums than to tell them to STFU, lest ye find yerself hit with the ban stick.>

EcHoMaN
02-06-2005, 06:36
No that is not so, the armor reduction is -2 for the specific piece but the rune of absorption reduction (not to be confused with armor reduction) applies to all your armor.
i dont see how it would, if some1 has put lets say an absorpt rune in a gladiators set, does the bonus read on all armor peices?if not then you arnt getting all peices with that mod

EcHoMaN
02-06-2005, 06:40
taken from that link,for the lazy people this is how armor works
Hit Locations

" Each player can use up to five pieces of armor - a chest piece, leggings, boots, gloves, and a hat. Any given attack on a player will hit one of these five locations, and only the armor at that location is considered - all the other pieces are ignored. Additional defensive measures, such as an armor-boosting enchantment or a shield, are added to the target's defense, regardless of hit location.

Exactly where a given attack will strike depends on the orientation of the target, and the type of attack that you are making. Skills that automatically hit the target, such as Lightning Strike, always use the target's chest piece when calculating the target's armor level. Weapon attacks and projectile spells, however, have a chance of hitting the target at any of the five hit locations. The exact percentages are dependent upon the orientation of the target - if you're attacking from above, you are more likely to get a head shot - but under most circumstances, the rough hit locations break down as follows:

Hit Location Percentages
Hit Location Chance to Hit
Arms 12.5%
Head 12.5%
Feet 12.5%
Legs 25.0%
Torso 37.5%


Clearly, your chest piece is your most important piece of armor, as it receives the highest percentage of hits as well as being the target of auto-hit spells. At the same time, your non-torso armor will be subject to a proportionally higher percentage of physical attacks, as many of the elemental spells that you'll encounter go right for the body. Mixing up your armor sets might not be such a bad idea after all."

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 07:03
No that is not so, the armor reduction is -2 for the specific piece but the rune of absorption reduction (not to be confused with armor reduction) applies to all your armor.
incorrect.

The armor bonus is applied completely. it is not applied as a piece by piece basis. You can mix and match armor pieces this way to gain the full benifit. the bonus from knights and ascalon armor does not stack.

@EcHoMaN.
1) don't assume that mechanics works exactly the way its written in the game.
2) linking outside = no-no.
3) that article was out of date as of 2 BWE ago (so 2-3 months). The damage equation has changed no less than 3 times since I saw that article for the first time.
4) absorption effects has changed.

dirtycash
02-06-2005, 07:05
1. Linking to other sites will get you banned.
2. None of what you posted says anything about minus damage from 1 armor piece adding to the whole, no matter where you get hit.
3. I did not ask for your opinion, I asked for SonofRah.


So again to SonofRah,

Does the fact that you wear 1 piece of armor that has minus damage effect all the other pieces? (not that the armor has a rune in it, just that it is ascalon etc)

Also, how does a shield having -3 damage or so from being enchanted factor into this?

dirtycash
02-06-2005, 07:06
Hahaha, SonofRah I like how we both went into list form.

Chantal Dubois
02-06-2005, 07:16
every1 should read this and stfu then ;)unless they decided to change the game machanics recently
<EDIT BY CHANTAL: Link removed. You must first ask a mod prior to linking outside. Secondly, the info you linked to is incorrect. Thirdly, you must show far more respect for others in these forums than to tell them to STFU, lest ye find yerself hit with the ban stick.>

SonofRah is the person who did the original work behind collecting all the data necessary and came up with the original damage equations. He's a very highly respected alpha tester and does know what he's talking about on these. There is nobody out there that knows more about the mechanics of damage and how they all work than SonofRah, with the exception of the devs themselves.

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 07:49
So again to SonofRah,

Does the fact that you wear 1 piece of armor that has minus damage effect all the other pieces? (not that the armor has a rune in it, just that it is ascalon etc)

Also, how does a shield having -3 damage or so from being enchanted factor into this?

nice last question...must clarify my little article update with that.

If you have any part of the ascalon or knights armor, you get the global -2 absorption benifit. It doesn't matter if you have only one piece, you still get the lot.

if you have both an ascalon and knights armor piece, you only get -2 in total -> it does not stack

if you have an absorption rune, then this stacks with the armor absorption bonus. This has been a recent change which occured around the same time as release or a little before that.

Thus, the most you can get is -5 (-2 from armor, -3 from rune).

-x damage (or -3 as the most you can get) is somewhat similar, yet somewhat different.

Its been a while since I tested it, but last I checked -x damage from shield bonuses modified all damage you recieved, whilst the absorption property works only for attacks (ie: hitting someone with your fancy new weapon). This bonus stacks with the effects from absorption/knights/ascalon armor.

I haven't tested since then to check if the -x damage granted on shields has been changed to only modifying attack damage and not global damage. I do however think that it is still global damage - as it is mostly situational (ie: whilst in stance/enchanted etc).

dirtycash
02-06-2005, 08:10
Thank you very much for your knowledge.

Good luck with your upcoming production. :happy34:

buglepong
02-06-2005, 15:35
If you have any part of the ascalon or knights armor, you get the global -2 absorption benifit. It doesn't matter if you have only one piece, you still get the lot.
That's really stupid. A completely arbitrary counter-intuitive damage system does not good gaming make.

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 16:24
That's really stupid. A completely arbitrary counter-intuitive damage system does not good gaming make.
oh you think so?

The whole thing isn't intuitive. in fact, the only intuitive thing that this game has for the damage system is that more armor = less damage. Who cares that the mechanic is not officially released? Seriously, players can see for themselves that more armor = less damage. Which is intuitive enough.

Serously, in how many games is the damage system intuitive - *especially* when it comes down to small nuances? Not many. It either boils down to more armor = harder to hit, or more armor = less damage. Or some other thing when its a standard RPG (final fantasy etc). And yet many of these games were great to play.

The only time the game system becomes intuitive is a) when a game is made that is based upon an already known system (eg: neverwinter nights as it is based upon the AD&D ruleset), or b) someone gets gritty and either reverse engineers the hardcoded system (hex editors, decompilers etc), or does extensive testing/recording to figure it out from scratch (what I did).

Once you understand how this game mechanic works and interacts with itself - then every other mechanic that this game has becomes intuitive.

In diablo 2 was poison stacking intuitive? nope. Did that stop the game from being a world hit and good gaming? not at all.

Vyper
02-06-2005, 16:27
That's really stupid.
Since you started the post with calling something stupid, I develop an instant lack of care in your opinions.

A completely arbitrary counter-intuitive damage system does not good gaming make.
We speak English on these boards, not Yoda.

buglepong
02-06-2005, 16:45
Once you understand how this game mechanic works and interacts with itself - then every other mechanic that this game has becomes intuitive.
Yes this is how it should be but unfortunately, GW is not like this. If it wasn't for that you spending hours figuring out how it really worked most of us wouldn't know.

As far a I can see, having this kind of system is unnecessarily complex.. it serves no real purpose. The only thing it does do is make everyone confused, as made evident by the contradictory opinions made on this topic alone. Not to mention in turns out the best armour is a specific mix and match of different types based on location, stats and runes, which is quite contrary to intuition and expectation.

So it doesn't break the game, but it is just not necessary, or even beneficial. This goes for every game, or system. I should simply call it what it is.

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 16:57
As far a I can see, having this kind of system is unnecessarily complex.. it serves no real purpose.
I beg to differ. Many game equations and mechanics (from all games) are quite complex - although rather simple when it is at its basics.

Its complex if you don't really understand it, and try to jump into the whole thing at once.

I mean, do you really understand how a AWP in counter strike can deal 1 point of damage? yet other times it can do 400+? The only intuitive thing about that game is a) guns with higher calibre rounds deals more damage, b) getting solid hits deals more damage (solid = full body hits and headshots), and c) armor = less damage.

Whats the difference?

In one game, the mechanic is widely unknown. I'm sure people can calculate the exact damage you will recieve from an AWP to your left pinky, but its not like it is known by people. I'm sure it is quite complex.

In this game we know the equation, but does that really take away from the game experience even though it and other game mechanics are quite complex?

seriously.....think for a second. How do people come up with a damage equation and other game mechanics? It is definately not easy to come up with a unique mechanic for your game which keeping balance and other design issues in mind. And there is the reason why game mechanics are often quite complex.

buglepong
02-06-2005, 17:01
So what would be the importance of location based hit damage? Other than encouraging players who actually do understand the system to look like they've picked up random pieces of discarded armours?

huxley maximus
02-06-2005, 17:02
That's really stupid. A completely arbitrary counter-intuitive damage system does not good gaming make.
Yes, lets have people wearing three different pieces of different armor and get -6 damage and add a superior rune on that so they get -10...they don't have these mechanics in as an afterthought. They have put a lot of thought and work into everything and it is no accident that you cannot stack a gladiators leggings with a knights cuirass.

huxley maximus
02-06-2005, 17:03
So what would be the importance of location based hit damage? Other than encouraging players who actually do understand the system to look like they've picked up random pieces of discarded armours?
Head is a critical hit against you
chest is most commonly hit
leggings is second most common hit
gauntlets and feet are rarely ever hit and I believe cause a higher damage attack as well.

buglepong
02-06-2005, 17:04
Yes, lets have people wearing three different pieces of different armor and get -6 damage and add a superior rune on that so they get -10...they don't have these mechanics in as an afterthought. They have put a lot of thought and work into everything and it is no accident that you cannot stack a gladiators leggings with a knights cuirass.
Evidently AC/Knight's armour actually goes against this reasoning. It stacks, no matter where you wear it, and no matter how many peices you have (save none). Tell me that is not stupid.

buglepong
02-06-2005, 17:07
Head is a critical hit against you
chest is most commonly hit
leggings is second most common hit
gauntlets and feet are rarely ever hit and I believe cause a higher damage attack as well.
Which, in the end, makes characters look like their mothers dressed them funny. Or you could ignore it, which means the system gets the better of you because you don't understand it or don't agree with it. Both causes are bad causes.

XeroTheta
02-06-2005, 17:10
If you have any part of the ascalon or knights armor, you get the global -2 absorption benifit. It doesn't matter if you have only one piece, you still get the lot.


Ok... so... just to clarify... because this sentance doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

if I wear Ascalon/Knights boots, and everything else is... lets say dragons armor... then I get the damage reduction even if an attack hits my torso?

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 17:14
Head is a critical hit against you
chest is most commonly hit
leggings is second most common hit
gauntlets and feet are rarely ever hit and I believe cause a higher damage attack as well.
Disregarding the chances to hit (ie: chest most common), what you just stated is entirely incorrect.


**********
Importance of a hit based system -
I don't know, I wasn't one of the devs who came up with the system. All I know is that the devs came up with the system a couple of years ago. Who cares really? It works.

If you really want to know, email ANet and ask.

Also -> and this if for you in particular huxley maximus.
Please read my previous posts in this thread. I'm getting tired of repeating myself to people who are obviously not reading the things that correct their misconceptions about the game.

***
edit:// post # 2000!! Can I get a cookie?

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 17:16
Ok... so... just to clarify... because this sentance doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

if I wear Ascalon/Knights boots, and everything else is... lets say dragons armor... then I get the damage reduction even if an attack hits my torso?
yes.

if you have all 5 pieces, you get -2
4 pieces, -2
1 piece, -2.

It does not matter where you get hit. You still get the -2 bonus from the armor piece. It works the same way that runes do.

XeroTheta
02-06-2005, 17:37
Cool, thanks!

Eselred Vox
02-06-2005, 18:17
yes.

if you have all 5 pieces, you get -2
4 pieces, -2
1 piece, -2.

It does not matter where you get hit. You still get the -2 bonus from the armor piece. It works the same way that runes do.


SonofRah, I appreciate your input. I would like to ask (as so many seem to) - because it just seems... somehow innately counterintuitive:

1) I have 5 pieces of knights armor. No absorption rune. When I am attacked physically, my damage absorption - REGARDLESS OF LOCATION HIT - is -2. True or False?

2) I have 4 pieces of non-ascalon/non-knights, and 1 piece of knights armor. When I am attacked physically, my damage absorption - REGARDLESS OF LOCATION HIT - is -2. True or False?

3) The effect of an absorption rune WILL stack with ascalon/knights armor - but only once. Applications of an absorption rune on more than one piece of armor will result in only
a) The innate damage absorption of the armor itself (dependent on the answers in (1) and (2) to determine the effect of location hit)
b) The best type of absorption rune that has been applied to any piece of the worn armor.

True or False?

4) Example: I wear a pair of knight's boots. Damage absorption modifier is -2. I apply a superior rune of absorption (-3 damage). Effects DO stack, and overall effect of this is a -5 damage soak modifier - REGARDLESS OF LOCATION HIT. True/False?


Now, SonofRa, with all of these questions out of the way - and my thanks for answering them in advance - one question remains:

Is this what ANET intends/intended? Is there any inclination that a more sophisticated (and, in my opinion, intuitive) formula that accounts for LOCATION HIT, and whether or not a damage absorption mod is applied to that location, is in the works?

This is of utmost concern to any frontline tank, and I'll be happy either way -so long as everything is crystal clear. Warriors aren't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, after all:)

-Eselred Vox

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 18:34
1) true
2) true
3) true, and b is the case (not a). Runes don't stack with themselves. If you have mutliples of the same rune, the one that grants the highest bonus is applied.
4) true.


Is this what ANET intends/intended? Is there any inclination that a more sophisticated (and, in my opinion, intuitive) formula that accounts for LOCATION HIT, and whether or not a damage absorption mod is applied to that location, is in the works?
no comment. NDA you know.... as much as I'd like to reveal to the world the full extent of the master plan to take over the world with Charr babies..... errr opps. I think I said to much.... *sneaks off*

------
I personally think that it is unlikely that a mechanic change of this magnitude won't occur. Well maybe in an expansion, but probably unlikely.

I don't know why each knights/ascalon piece has the absorption property on it. If I were to hazard a guess, i'd say its partly to do with allowing people to mix and match armor pieces etc whilst keeping balance between the armor pieces.

We testers are quite often left into the dark with regards to gameplay mechanics and how they work. This has both its good and bad sides. Good because we are emulating how the general player base will act/behave with regards to those mechanics, and bad because it can sometimes be annoying trying to track down issues related to that particular mechanic.

**Disclaimer**
Do realise that the above comments are entirely my outside opinion on the matter and is not a representation or has any relevance to past, present or future alpha/devs intentions or discussions.

Chantal Dubois
02-06-2005, 18:41
***
edit:// post # 2000!! Can I get a cookie?

Congrats! Massive cookies and I'll even bake a cheesecake for ya! :clap:

Chronus24
02-06-2005, 19:15
So then, with all this being said, an excellent armor combination might be:

Cool hat - what ever skill you want, Minor Skill Rune
Platemail Chest - Sup Vigor Rune
Gladiator Leggins - Sup Skill Rune
Gladiator Gloves - Minor Skill Rune
Knights Boots - Sup Absorb Rune

This way you get:
Whatever mods come on the cool hat
85 AL on you're most hit area
+3 energy total
-5 Damage Absorb

Not to mention the possible shield

dirtycash
02-06-2005, 19:17
Congrats! Massive cookies and I'll even bake a cheesecake for ya! :clap:

Since the cookie monster is trying to be more healthy, shouldn't we? Maybe we can get him some carrots or something?

coldfirene
02-06-2005, 20:07
First off let me just say this ahead of time, SonOfRah we thank you ernestly for the work and amount of time you have obviously spent on this issue. I have read each post and have one more question, that either I missed or has yet to be asked.

Damage absorption, where in the damage calc is it taken into account. Is it before or after damage is reduced based upon target AL. In the case of hitting a target with 60 AL or doing 100% damage the order of damage calc would not matter. But if you damge is being increased or decreased based upon AL then the order would matter. Now granted we are talking like 2pts of damge difference at the most depending on the order of calculations. But that would add as you are hit several times.

As an aside, did you use something like wild blow skill that does an auto crit to figure out the differences in the damage calcs? Once again thanks for the work you have put into this.

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 20:35
its applied after....lemme pull up my work in progress....


At its basics the equation is as follows:
Received Damage = {(Damage Enhancement) x (Base Damage) x (Armor Modifier)} + (Bonus Damage)

damage enchancement is reasnably obvious -> thats where customisation and +xx% damage on weapons goes.
Armor modifier is 2^([baseline-armor]/40)
bonus damage is mainly +damage.

Practically every attack skill in the game (except a couple) uses the bonus damage when it applies its extra damage. Power attack and power shot are the only two (i think its only those 2) skills in the game where the extra damage is not applied in the bonus damage section (it modifies base damage instead).
eg: glaraths slash +25damage. -> the bonus damage is +25, the base damage is your sword.
eg: power attack +22damage -> bonus damage is +0, base damage is your sword + 22.

And then we have absorption skills, which act the opposite of bonus damage. In other words "less damage" or absorption. Obviously then, a superior absorption rune is -3 bonus damage.

The game simply totals the bonus damage, and then adds it to the rest of the equation (after armor modifications). I have it explained somewhat better with my article in the works, but thats the gist of it.


Testing was done at a variety of levels, under many different circumstances. Most weapon testing was done with wild blow as not only does it force the base damage to the maximum listed on the weapon, but its damage bonus is increadibly easy to apply.

Initial testing was done using spells. Damage works the same way. The only difference between spells and weapons is the baseline that is used (3*LVL for spells, [70/15]*Attribute for weapons).

bllius
02-06-2005, 20:37
How does an armor modifier on a staff work.

Armor+4.

Does this apply globally to my entire body?

SonOfRah
02-06-2005, 20:48
How does an armor modifier on a staff work.

Armor+4.

Does this apply globally to my entire body?
globaly.

Anything that says +X armor means your base armor against all damage types is increased by X

Anything that says +X armor versus <damage type> means your base armor against that specific damage type is increased by X

bardolph
03-06-2005, 01:30
yes.

if you have all 5 pieces, you get -2
4 pieces, -2
1 piece, -2.

It does not matter where you get hit. You still get the -2 bonus from the armor piece. It works the same way that runes do.

According to this system, someone who wears ALL ringmail EXCEPT for Ascalon gloves has an overall better damage absorption ON ALL LOCATIONS than someone who has a complete set of either.

This system, if it accurately represents the game, actually makes a complete, good-looking set of armor totally inferior to a mish-mash set of different armor types.

I do see that as a flaw. Why? Because anyone who is knowledgeable of this system will end up looking completely ridiculous, because the game REQUIRES you to look completely ridiculous in order to have the maximum protection.

If Ascalon gloves provide a -2 damage absorption, how is it good design to "carry over" that damage absorption to the chest? Think about it. It means that savvy players will get the full benefit "on the cheap" by only buying the gloves, and those same players will realize that they get PENALIZED for buying the rest of the set, because those pieces are more expensive and offer less Physical armor than ring mail, and the only property they offer, damage absorption, is rendered worthless because the initial set of gloves will provide damage absorption to the ENTIRE BODY.

How can that be seen as good game design? That is bad game design. Plain and simple.

Vyper
03-06-2005, 01:35
How can that be seen as good game design? That is bad game design. Plain and simple.
As usual, if you think it's bad game design, stop playing. You should go play D2 or something. Oh wait, I forgot, 98% of the full sets on that game sucked and it's hacked to hell. As for me, I'll stick with full knight armor. I don't give two ****s about twinking, and I don't play PvP hardcore enough to care.

Perfidia
03-06-2005, 02:13
You know, maybe if you had finished this study when I bought my level 20 armor...

So in essence, my full Knights set is much less effective than one peice of knights and the rest platemail.

::bangs head on desk::

Maybe AN could have explained this a bit better. I was under the impressoin when I bought the armor that I would receive +8 Absorption (Don't have Kingths helm). This is somewhat frustrating.

-EDITED-

Yes, it looks like he is sadly right. I bought two peices of Platemail and now receive less damage. I guess it's good I know now though.

Vyper
03-06-2005, 02:20
eh, they could be Funcom.
"Here's this game, have fun."

Necrophilous
03-06-2005, 02:32
So what would be the importance of location based hit damage? Other than encouraging players who actually do understand the system to look like they've picked up random pieces of discarded armours?


I believe it is to create realism. In games like Diablo, realism is obviously not a big factor. IE. Having a high def hat gives u less chance of being hit (gives bonous to entire body)? [disregard the chance of being hit as unlikely]

Location based damage increases realism.. having armour on ur hands obviously reduces damage done when hit in the hands etc... and damage reduction.. just say the world of magic is real... would it really pertain to just once piece of armour? and to be technical.. it doesnt say "reduce damage done to hands"

The non stacking of different armours is probably less intuitive.. but.. its obvious that runes dont stack.. so why would this stack? that would make warriors too good considering that only warriors have damage reduction.

>< just realized i put typed "armour" everytime so ignore that.

*note* dont get mad if anything i said dont make sense.. im really tired

REI ONRYOU
03-06-2005, 02:40
I don't think you've answered it in the thread yet Rah, but you may do in your article. One question many have debated is:

The -2 damage from physical or the +10AL vs. physical (the difference between armours I believe). Which to go for? Is it dependant on the amount of damage you're expecting to take (high amounts, or lower amounts) or is one universally better than the other?

I'd guess the easiest way to determine it would be to look at how much damage you expect to take at break points (20 points, 30 points etc... upto 120 or so) to see which modifier makes the best effect. If you haven't yet, perhaps this is something to look into.

All hail the mighty Rah's Son. Shower him with cookies!

Chantal also appears to like her cooking. What other delicacies are on your repetoire?

Jezza
03-06-2005, 02:57
I was just reading through and thinking about the hit locations thing. Wouldnt it be nice if you hit someone in the legs, and they were either knocked down or crippled, depending on weapon type i guess.

Slashing = knockdown, piercing = crippled.

Just seemed appealing to me. By the way SonOfRah, you once wanted to buy a sword from me in game (assuming yoru cahr was named Son Of Rah) :)

Good work on all the formulas and stuff. It has helped me greatly.

EDIT

Also thinking for the arms (if hit), weakness and slower skill recharge maybe? Sounds fun!

provoko
03-06-2005, 03:49
I scanned through the post, I don't if i missed it, but does the -x on sheilds stack with that -5 on armor?

flyingkiwi
03-06-2005, 04:01
globaly.

Anything that says +X armor means your base armor against all damage types is increased by X

Anything that says +X armor versus <damage type> means your base armor against that specific damage type is increased by X

i've been debating whether i should get the mesmer 15k rogue set for solo play. i already spent a lot for full virtuoso set. so i have a couple of questions just for my clarification of the above statements:

1) having 1 piece of rogue armor would mean i would have a global +10 defense vs physical attacks?

2) what about having 2 or the whole set of rogue armor? the +10 def vs physcial attacks wouldn't stack then, right?

3) if i have 1 piece rogue and 1 piece virtuoso/noble's i would get a global +10 defense vs physical attacks and +15 def while casting?

this has been an interesting read. thanks so much for your posts! had i read this before i would have considered buying pieces from different sets of armour. :(

endlesssnowfall
03-06-2005, 04:25
I have a question...

Which one is better, an upgrade that gives +x to armor (i.e. shelter, warding, defense), or an upgrade that gives +x to health (fortitude)?

Fortitude upgrades are more popular, but does the reduced damage from +armor upgrades negate/better than the addition of health?

Thanks.

SonOfRah
03-06-2005, 05:07
Couple of things,
REI ONRYOU,
Both are good. Having higher amounts of AL means that you take less damage -which means you get a bigger effect out of the absorption mod.

If you would take 30 damage from an attack - thats 28 damage after knights armor or a 7% damage decrease. If you have even more AL and instead would take 18 damage from the attack, knights would reduce it to 16 (or a 12% damage decrease). Its all relative.

The trick is to maximise your Armor, and then stack on absorption. Absorption is also good versus sword warriors - since they ussually deal much less damage.

provoko,
the -x on shields should stack. Last time I checked, the -x damage on shields applied to all damage -> and not just physical.

flyingkiwi,
each armor piece in the game generally has a base armor level value, and maybe a bonus amount of AL versus a specific damage type. AL is only for the piece that got hit, meaning that it is only when I get hit on that armor peice do I get the bonus AL value.

eg: rogue gloves, and normal mesmer attire for the rest.
If I get hit on my hands (gloves), then I will get the +10AL vs physical bonus. If I get hit anywhere else, then I won't get this bonus.

Basically -> anything on the armor that is a base AL or bonus AL, is only applied for that single armor piece when it gets hit.
Any other mods (runes, +attribute, reduced damage/absorption etc) are applied globaly.

endlesssnowfall,
depends how you look at it ;)

I'll deal with best case mods (+5 defence, +30 health) -> and a superior vigor (+50hp).

Level 20 with vigor + health -> 560 life
Level 20 with vigor and AL -> 510 life, ~8.2% damage reduction from most damage due to +5AL.

Now more life is generally ok, but you will end up taking more damage which kinda balances it out.

More AL is good, because it it means you take less damage overall. +5AL means ~8.2% damage reduction, which also means an effective life total of ~552 against attacks that are modified by armor.

Whilst this may look weaker at first, the lower life total can generally get better effects out of hp based spells. Protective spirit on smaller max HP means that the target takes less damage, and sacrafice spells cost slightly less.

Overall -> its about the same :) I prefer +AL though, but that is just me.

Torm Shadowbane
03-06-2005, 06:55
I would like some clarification. (A simple yes or no will suffice.)

If I have Knights Gauntlets with a Superior Rune of Absorption on it, then my armor has a global damage reduction of -5, correct? Then I have a shield with a damage reduction of -3, does that stack with the -5 from the Armor for a total global damage reduction of -8? I know it was stated that the MAX damage reduction was -5 and shields were mentioned... but I would just like a simple yes or no for clarification.

Hades the Terrible
03-06-2005, 06:58
So if I have a pair of Knight's boots on and the rest of my armour is like Gladiators, what you are saying is that no matter where I am hit, the Knight's boots will give me that -2 damage?

huxley maximus
03-06-2005, 07:03
Disregarding the chances to hit (ie: chest most common), what you just stated is entirely incorrect.


**********
Importance of a hit based system -
I don't know, I wasn't one of the devs who came up with the system. All I know is that the devs came up with the system a couple of years ago. Who cares really? It works.

If you really want to know, email ANet and ask.

Also -> and this if for you in particular huxley maximus.
Please read my previous posts in this thread. I'm getting tired of repeating myself to people who are obviously not reading the things that correct their misconceptions about the game.

***
edit:// post # 2000!! Can I get a cookie?
edit nevermind

SonOfRah
03-06-2005, 07:44
So if I have a pair of Knight's boots on and the rest of my armour is like Gladiators, what you are saying is that no matter where I am hit, the Knight's boots will give me that -2 damage?
yes.

10 chars

Denna Silverheart
03-06-2005, 07:58
This makes me sad. I've been looking forward to Knight's armor, but it seems the only thing I'm going to see are the gloves, and use that ugly as satan plate mail for everything else. I really, REALLY hate how platemail looks, but I hate not being as strong as I can be just as much. :sad44:

It doesn't even make sense. I have damage reduction on my hands, so I get it through all my body? I was hoping this would be a game where I wouldn't have to tweak like that, sacrificing me looking decent and instead looking like a clown.

Sir Sweepaway
03-06-2005, 08:04
With all that I have read ( a few pages because I dont have much time) this would be the best armor set you could have...

-1 piece of ascalon/knights armor with the reduced damage -2 (most likely boots or gloves for low hit amount)
-4 pieces of anything else that either had 85 AL +10 physical or 80 AL +20 physical (depends on your preference and opponents of choice)
-a superior rune of absortion which gives damage -3

Now I am unsure if it is better to have the 85 AL +10 or the 80 AL +20 (although gladiators gives energy as well, so if you dont mind looking bad or putting in an extra shiney penny for the dragon looking gladiators in fissure)
so I will await the reply on that. Please correct me if I am wrong guys :happy34: I just wana get the best armor possible before I get the best looking armor :happy14:

Tsume
03-06-2005, 10:00
Sir Sweepaway, useing the knowledge that SonofRah has so generously shared with us I would conclude this:

Yes, chooseing the armor peice that is less likely to be hit for your Ascalon/Knights peice to recieve its -2 damage from attacks bonus would be the best spot for it, as something that has a higher armor level for your needs could be placed on the more commonly hit areas.

As far as your 85/10 or 80/20 delimma, well thats all related to what you expect on getting hit most with. Personally I would go for the higher overall rating (85/10) for my chest peice since many offensive spells are targeted at it.

Ofcourse this all depends on what the actual 'chance' to get hit in each spot is. At this given time I don't know and I'm not sure if anyone other than the Devs do yet. I can only hope Rah's newest article wll have some form of insight into the matter.

Rah, I cant wait to read your newest article and get up to date on all the changes. Thankyou for always taking the time to explain these equations the way you do, and for answering the countless hypothetical and situational questions directed your way. It truely is and always will be a pleasure to share these boards with you.

Jersey
03-06-2005, 13:57
Wow! This was indeed an interresting read, and useful info! Thanks a lot, Rah!
I'm looking forward to read the complete article. Keep up the good work :happy14:

LimDul
03-06-2005, 14:55
People - I'm not sure if it's because of the recent updates or whatever, but actually there ARE hit locations and Ascalon/Knight's Sets don't reduce the damage globally.
Not only have I made some tests against creeps doing constant damage and removing/adding different pieces of armor, but also have I sent a question to ANet - the answer confirmed my theories.

You get a -5 damage reduction ON YOUR WHOLE BODY only while wearing a WHOLE Knight's Set AND a rune - if you are wearing e.g. only one piece of damage reducing armor you'll have the damage reduction ONLY against hits targetting this part of your body (and -3 from the rune, which works globally, as well).

So it's actually not AS stupid as you might think - you still have to wear a whole set of damage reducing armor to enjoy its full effect.

Nevertheless the damage reduction of course DOESN'T stack with the damage reduction given by other pieces. What you must undestand is that each part of your body is treated separately. E.g. if you were wearing a whole Platemail Set WITHOUT the helmet and would get hit by a low-level monster (without any absorption runes) you'd get hit for 1 damage most of the time and sometimes for the FULL damage if you's get hit in the head (the rest of your armor won't protect you). This has been excessively tested by me and my friends and officially confirmed.

iwbs
03-06-2005, 15:24
People - I'm not sure if it's because of the recent updates or whatever, but actually there ARE hit locations and Ascalon/Knight's Sets don't reduce the damage globally.
Not only have I made some tests against creeps doing constant damage and removing/adding different pieces of armor, but also have I sent a question to ANet - the answer confirmed my theories.

You get a -5 damage reduction ON YOUR WHOLE BODY only while wearing a WHOLE Knight's Set AND a rune - if you are wearing e.g. only one piece of damage reducing armor you'll have the damage reduction ONLY against hits targetting this part of your body (and -3 from the rune, which works globally, as well).

So it's actually not AS stupid as you might think - you still have to wear a whole set of damage reducing armor to enjoy its full effect.

Nevertheless the damage reduction of course DOESN'T stack with the damage reduction given by other pieces. What you must undestand is that each part of your body is treated separately. E.g. if you were wearing a whole Platemail Set WITHOUT the helmet and would get hit by a low-level monster (without any absorption runes) you'd get hit for 1 damage most of the time and sometimes for the FULL damage if you's get hit in the head (the rest of your armor won't protect you). This has been excessively tested by me and my friends and officially confirmed.

i just did an experiment myself and confirm that the -2 is still apply to whole body :winking47

krjal
03-06-2005, 16:18
Is there ANY official confirmation AT ALL that someone can point us (me) to?

ps. Hi! First post!

majoho
03-06-2005, 16:22
This thread is kinda confusing, I know the same point is made over and over again - but could someone sum up the actual facts or is the first post right?

(In that case the 9 pages are kinda useless to read).

Btw. I assume absorbsion (Soak) "stacks" with the damage taken (Damage Reduction) ability some weapons/shields have (using D&D terms)?

SonOfRah
03-06-2005, 16:30
LimDul,
I don't know about your definition of "excessive testing", but it obviously wasn't much. Damage reduction from armor pieces is applied globaly. I've just run a quick check - which mind you, easily proves you wrong :)

Test candidate.... level 3 Charr Warrior. why? cause this little guy uses wild blow which gives us a single damage value to do all our testing with. Went out and bought the really low AL ascalon armor set for a few hundred gold and some iron. w00t!

0AL -> wild blow = 20 damage. This is the most damage this guy can deal whilst using this skill. This is our starting point. we don't care what his baseline, strength attribute or weapon damage is. The damage is constant which is all we care about.
80+20physAL -> wild blow = 3 damage, inluding a minor absorption rune. This is my main armor. This value tells us when he hits this armor piece.
35+10physAL -> wild blow = 8 damage, this includes the -2 damage reduction. This is the ascalon armor. This value tells us when he hits this armor piece.

results ->
Check 1: no armor except my ussual armor that has minor absorption rune. -1 damage total
Wild Blow = 19 damage.
Wild Blow = 3 damage. (This means he hit my gloves).

Check 2: no armor except 1 piece of ascalon armor. -2 damage total
Wild Blow = 18 Damage.
Wild Blow = 8 damage (this means he hit my ascalon armor piece)

Check 3: my gloves with the absorption rune, and 1 piece ascalon armor. -3 damage total
Wild Blow = 17 damage.
Wild Blow = 1 damage. (he hit my gloves)
Wild Blow = 7 damage. (he hit the ascalon armor)

Conclusion:
1) absorption is applied globaly
2) damage reduction mod is applied globaly regardless of how many pieces you are currently wearing
3) absorption runes and damage reduction mod on armor stacks.

*****
And finnaly, it is highly unlikely that the guys at Support fully understand all of the gameplay mechanics.


but also have I sent a question to ANet - the answer confirmed my theories. You do realise that the damage equation has never been officially confirmed by anyone, least of all to me, and most likely never will be. This mechanic is part of the damage equation, and thus won't be officially confirmed until ANet releases the eqn (which is around the same time I will grow wings).

SonOfRah
03-06-2005, 16:42
This thread is kinda confusing, I know the same point is made over and over again - but could someone sum up the actual facts or is the first post right?

(In that case the 9 pages are kinda useless to read).

Btw. I assume absorbsion (Soak) "stacks" with the damage taken (Damage Reduction) ability some weapons/shields have (using D&D terms)?

Summary -> just for you, but also to re-enforce what people have not been listening to for the past 5 pages of information......

1) Actual values:
reduces damage from attacks (on armor such as ascalon/knights) = -2

absorption runes:
minor = -1
major = -2
superior = -3

This only for attacks (ie: hitting someone with your weapon to cause damage).

2) the bonus granted from absorption runes is applied globaly. ie: it does not matter which armor piece the rune is placed. You will always get the bonus.

3) the bonus granted from the ascalon/knights armor is applied globaly. ie: it does not matter which armor piece you are hit. As long as you are wearing at least one armor piece that has the damage reduction modifier on it (knights/ascalon), then you will always get the bonus.

4) absorption runes and the damage reduction mod both stack with each other. It doesn't matter which armor piece has the mod, how many or where the rune is placed. You will always get the bonus from both the rune and the damage reduction armor piece.

Daikini
03-06-2005, 16:43
Now lets see how many posts there are until someone either contradicts you or asks about something you just explained. :D

I give it 4 posts after this one.


SonOfRah, you are doing the community a great service. There are way to many people out there who dont know what they are talking about and spread false information. Thanks again.

~Kazama Fury~
03-06-2005, 17:57
With this said. SonOfRah, others have already said it, but I would like to as well. Thank you for your thorough research, I have learned quite a bit today. You are indeed a great asset to the GW community. Keep up the good work. I look foward in reading the article.

Chantal Dubois
03-06-2005, 18:06
People - I'm not sure if it's because of the recent updates or whatever, but actually there ARE hit locations and Ascalon/Knight's Sets don't reduce the damage globally.
Not only have I made some tests against creeps doing constant damage and removing/adding different pieces of armor, but also have I sent a question to ANet - the answer confirmed my theories.

You get a -5 damage reduction ON YOUR WHOLE BODY only while wearing a WHOLE Knight's Set AND a rune - if you are wearing e.g. only one piece of damage reducing armor you'll have the damage reduction ONLY against hits targetting this part of your body (and -3 from the rune, which works globally, as well).

So it's actually not AS stupid as you might think - you still have to wear a whole set of damage reducing armor to enjoy its full effect.

Nevertheless the damage reduction of course DOESN'T stack with the damage reduction given by other pieces. What you must undestand is that each part of your body is treated separately. E.g. if you were wearing a whole Platemail Set WITHOUT the helmet and would get hit by a low-level monster (without any absorption runes) you'd get hit for 1 damage most of the time and sometimes for the FULL damage if you's get hit in the head (the rest of your armor won't protect you). This has been excessively tested by me and my friends and officially confirmed.

By your comments here, I gather you may not have read the entire thread thoroughly. Here's what I posted (post #41) previously in case you missed it:


SonofRah is the person who did the original work behind collecting all the data necessary and came up with the original damage equations. He's a very highly respected alpha tester and does know what he's talking about on these. There is nobody out there that knows more about the mechanics of damage and how they all work than SonofRah, with the exception of the devs themselves.

Sir Sweepaway
03-06-2005, 18:17
Sir Sweepaway, useing the knowledge that SonofRah has so generously shared with us I would conclude this:

Yes, chooseing the armor peice that is less likely to be hit for your Ascalon/Knights peice to recieve its -2 damage from attacks bonus would be the best spot for it, as something that has a higher armor level for your needs could be placed on the more commonly hit areas.

As far as your 85/10 or 80/20 delimma, well thats all related to what you expect on getting hit most with. Personally I would go for the higher overall rating (85/10) for my chest peice since many offensive spells are targeted at it.

Ofcourse this all depends on what the actual 'chance' to get hit in each spot is. At this given time I don't know and I'm not sure if anyone other than the Devs do yet. I can only hope Rah's newest article wll have some form of insight into the matter.

Rah, I cant wait to read your newest article and get up to date on all the changes. Thankyou for always taking the time to explain these equations the way you do, and for answering the countless hypothetical and situational questions directed your way. It truely is and always will be a pleasure to share these boards with you.

Ok thanks, I just wasn't sure if the 80AL+20 is better or the 85AL+10 is. Hopefully this will be in Rah's guide and I would also like to thank Rah greatly for this information. I know that every warrior out there wants the most protection he/she can get and I would like to thank you for giving your time and money to prove your theories right :happy34:

SonOfRah
03-06-2005, 18:34
Ok thanks, I just wasn't sure if the 80AL+20 is better or the 85AL+10 is.
hehe......thats like, pretty obvious isn't it?










there is no right answer. it comes down to what you want defensive wise. ie: do you want to be stronger versus physical damage, or sacrafice some of that extra protection against physical for a more stronger base defense vs other damage types. You know, the thing called strategy and choices :)

Because of that, it won't be listed in the article. What the article is aiming to do, is educate people as to why they recieve the damage that they do. Its a tool that will give you an understanding to how this mechanic works, which should then grant you some sort of insight as to how various skills work and interact between one another. Understanding this mechanic will also give you a little understanding about the developers who came up with it a little - which will also help you to understand how other game mechanics work and were designed the way they were.

Once you have a solid understanding and insight of the mechanic and how skills interact, you can then use this knowledge to your advantage and will help you to maximise your potential in the game.

Do realise, it won't list every single skill and how they are calculated and interact with one another etc. Thats a huge undertaking in itself. What it does, is give you the power to go out an find out why that skill deals the damage that it does. Thus, you will then begin to understand how the skill works, and why it works the way it does. Not to mention figuring out how the skill will interact with other skills.

provoko
03-06-2005, 18:47
Same questions every 2 posts is the result of not having the information stored in a central area that can be read in one pass. Rather the info is spread out over pages 2 to 6 and have to be read a few times over to because you have to go back an fourth till you fully understand it.

This will continue until the information is centralized either as a stickied topic, a guide on the main page or as an external link (seriously that would help).

So spamming or flaming each other with "stop asking the same question" or "read the topic" just adds to the cycle and spreads out the most useful information.

Thanks SonOfRah for all the information and help you're giving us. I wish you were part of gwonline.net staff so you could add all this useful guildwars info on the main site.

Spottswoode
03-06-2005, 18:59
this post is gettin nowhere in terms of what warrior armor is best so im gonna start a poll

Derenek
03-06-2005, 19:08
Ok, I understand SonOfRa is respected in this forum and all that. However our guild has been running some serious tests of armor in the underworld.

We've had warriors wearing every set of armor, and every combination of every set. Including the 15k armor (I know there is no difference, but we decided to check anyhow)

A full set of Knights armor reduced damage from every attack after a series of over 100 attacks to the armor. (average damage from 120 attacks, 80.3)

A set of Platemail led to an overall larger amount of damage. (average damage from 120 attacks, 89.6)

A mixing of platemail and knights:
1 piece knights The rest Plate (average damage 89.2)
2 piece Knights the rest plate (average damage 86.6)
3 Piece Knights the rest plate (average damage 83.4)
4 Piece Knights 2 Plate (average damage 81.3)
Full Knights (average damage 80,3)
Full Plate (Average Damage 89.6)
Full plate w/ sup.absorb rune (average damage 87.4)
Knights with sup.rune (average damage 78.5)

Each variation was tested with exactly 120 attacks from Bladed ataaxes in UW.

Each attack was recorded and then means and averages calculated.

Using the scientific method and a real testing protocol and also using as a control the knights and Plate armor, and also using runes as an additional test variable, we have found that a full set of Knights armor is superior to piecemeal when it comes to defeating physical attacks. A full set of Knights with a sup. Rune is even better than that.

Full Platemail with a superiror rune is equivalent to wearing 2 minor knights pieces (not chest pieces) and the rest platemail.

Any who want the full collection of statistical test data can email me.

a total of 960 attacks were recorded and averaged.

This is real evidence. Anecdotal evidence like "in my experience..." or anyone who likes to list up 5 attacks as statistical data should be disregarded.

provoko
03-06-2005, 19:45
we have found that a full set of Knights armor is superior to piecemeal when it comes to defeating physical attacks.

Wow, pretty good test. I don't know who to believe now. But what about sonofra's test reply 92?
http://forums.gwonline.net/showpost.php?p=3499837&postcount=92

Well you both can't be right unless theres another factor you both aren't considering.

Naylia
03-06-2005, 19:53
Ok, I understand SonOfRa is respected in this forum and all that. However our guild has been running some serious tests of armor in the underworld.

We've had warriors wearing every set of armor, and every combination of every set. Including the 15k armor (I know there is no difference, but we decided to check anyhow)

A full set of Knights armor reduced damage from every attack after a series of over 100 attacks to the armor. (average damage from 120 attacks, 80.3)

A set of Platemail led to an overall larger amount of damage. (average damage from 120 attacks, 89.6)

A mixing of platemail and knights:
1 piece knights The rest Plate (average damage 89.2)
2 piece Knights the rest plate (average damage 86.6)
3 Piece Knights the rest plate (average damage 83.4)
4 Piece Knights 2 Plate (average damage 81.3)
Full Knights (average damage 80,3)
Full Plate (Average Damage 89.6)
Full plate w/ sup.absorb rune (average damage 87.4)
Knights with sup.rune (average damage 78.5)

Each variation was tested with exactly 120 attacks from Bladed ataaxes in UW.

Each attack was recorded and then means and averages calculated.

Using the scientific method and a real testing protocol and also using as a control the knights and Plate armor, and also using runes as an additional test variable, we have found that a full set of Knights armor is superior to piecemeal when it comes to defeating physical attacks. A full set of Knights with a sup. Rune is even better than that.

Full Platemail with a superiror rune is equivalent to wearing 2 minor knights pieces (not chest pieces) and the rest platemail.

Any who want the full collection of statistical test data can email me.

a total of 960 attacks were recorded and averaged.

This is real evidence. Anecdotal evidence like "in my experience..." or anyone who likes to list up 5 attacks as statistical data should be disregarded.


The flaw I see in this argument is that you are calculating means and averages based upon a sample. A sample that uses random damage of whatever the enemy can inflict, while SonofRha calculated his reductions based upon damage inflicted from an enemy that attacks with a constant damage level so you get reproducible results. It's possible that on one of your runs, the charr mentioned was having a bad day. May he hits 11 to 22, and just hit a streak of 11's or a streak of 22's. Do to chance this is possible. We see plenty of people play the game for 180 hours and never find a sup rune and plenty who play for 60 and have a dozen of em sitting around. The above study relies on random sampling and is subject to a margin of error. If that margin of error is +-1% great, but what if it's +- 10%? Have you repeated the 120 samples of each type of armor multiple times? That would really help you flesh out your probability study. The trends are indicative of something but I would not say conclusive.

Actually I just realized the larger flaw. Your argument relies on multiple pieces of armor to show decresed damage. This is because the enemy, hitting an unarmored part of your body does more damage, and depending on where you are wearing your two pieces (legs/arms) you'd probably recieve more dagmage than if you were to just wear chest. This is another reason why averaging, with a enemy that does a range of damage is a flawed way to test. It doesn't prove that reduced damage stacks, just that wearing armor on more parts of your body does less damge. The fact that the enemy hits different parts of your body really makes it difficult to analyze the results of your study. You also have the randomness of what if on a particular run, you had a string of contact with the chest, while the next time he focused on your head.

It's also unfortunate to see the sup rune only reduce by 2 when it should reduce by 3. This leads me to believe that you have error in the study of at least +/-1 if not more. (Assuming the ANet guys know the difference between -2 and -3 and I'm going to give them that one)

Just a little more...I think an interesting run to do that everyone would like to see is what are the results of all platemail with 1 knights (with and without a rune used). Can you do that?

SonOfRah
03-06-2005, 20:20
Wow, pretty good test. I don't know who to believe now. But what about sonofra's test reply 92?
http://forums.gwonline.net/showpost.php?p=3499837&postcount=92

Well you both can't be right unless theres another factor you both aren't considering.We can actually.

Its a good test :) The one problem is the factor of randomness and unknowns. of which there is currently too many....

Its especially bad now since the two skills we can use to crack down on damage isn't availible in this case.

1) ataxas don't use wild blow (as far as I know)
2) frenzy no longer causes a critical hit -> instead its double damage :(

Since you can't deal with a constant damage value, you can't really ascertain how the game randomly rolled. The other problem is possitioning vs the ataxes. You do get a damage bonus from the side/behind etc, and you also hit the arms more when you attack from the side.

If you really want averages, do a GvG under testing conditions. ie: get the player with the armor, and constantly hit them with wild blow and use that as your results. Same angle, same skill, same weapon all the time.

*note* I am not discounting your results. You obviously put alot of time and effort into it.

There is a difference between how the mechanic actually works, and how it turns out in general gameplay (as seen here).

There is also a difference between a completely controlled testing enviroment, and what you ran :) (no offense).

this_barb
03-06-2005, 21:29
When Flesh Golems did a very low range of damage (before the patch), I tested this for a fact. Doing a test of Ataaxes isn't very reliable for the sole fact that they already do a huge amount of damage and a little bit of reduction wouldn't help much.

Flesh golems (prior to patch) did 0-5 without my knight's gloves. i put them on and instantly see a reduction of 2, no matter where they hit, i stand there and still only take nothing higher than 3 damage.

jasad
03-06-2005, 21:38
nice job SonofRah. Great info. I just wanted to speak to the "intuitivity" (great word, huh?) of the system. I may be may off in my understanding, but I don't think I am.

Basically the model looks like this in my head:

Armor > provides a basic level of damage protection against any attacks that don't ignore armor on each specific location

+x AL vs. y type of attack > provides "x" basic damage protection against "y" type of attack on a specific location

Shields > provide an additional layer of basic armor protection that is mobile and therefore applicable to all locations

-x damage reduction (runes, and such) > provides a sort of magical force field effect that affects all locations regardless of where the rune or item is worn

It seems really intuitive to me, but maybe that's due to me being really, really wrong...

If this is wrong, will someone correct my model so that I don't feel so dense anymore? :happy34:

SonOfRah
03-06-2005, 21:43
+x AL vs. y type of attack > provides "x" basic damage protection against "y" type of attack on a specific location

replace attack with "damage type". It also adds on to your normal base armor.

shields -> work the same way as above except its +x AL to all armor pieces -> provided that you get hit from a forwards direction.

damage reduction (-x damage).....yea, a forcefield that reduces your damage by a set amount.

jasad
03-06-2005, 21:47
Cool. Thanks again for your time and help. I feel smarter already!

Denna Silverheart
03-06-2005, 22:01
Well, if ANet said that that's not how it works, then I'd rather go with that, because if that's not how it works now, it will probably be fixed in a patch later on. At least, that's my experience with MMO's.

Sieglinde Leoncouer
03-06-2005, 22:04
+x AL vs. y type of attack > provides "x" basic damage protection against "y" type of attack on a specific location

replace attack with "damage type". It also adds on to your normal base armor.

shields -> work the same way as above except its +x AL to all armor pieces -> provided that you get hit from a forwards direction.

damage reduction (-x damage).....yea, a forcefield that reduces your damage by a set amount.

You are above and beyond a wealth of information. I had no idea GW actually checked which way you were facing in regards to an enemies blow. It makes for common sense of course, but that doesn't always mean it got coded in. Thanks for helping us, or at least me, try to understand how all this works.

hotdogtesting
03-06-2005, 22:52
I think that we should get SonofRah to do a quick summary, with a full explanation of that damage equation (value of baseline and all).

After that, we should get this thread closed.

It seems that a lot of the confusion is coming from people who only make it 2 or 3 pages into the thread (a horrible habit).


From my understanding of the damage equation provided by SonofRah, here's a further annotated and cleaned version:

Received Damage = {(Damage Enhancement) x (Base Damage) x (Armor Modifier)} + (Bonus Damage) - (Damage Reduction)

Armor Modifier = 2^([Baseline - Armor at Location]/40)

Baseline = 60

Absorption runes apply to all locations.

Absorption from armor applies to all locations.

The maximum damage absorption is -5 (from shields, armor, and runes).

Feynt
03-06-2005, 23:06
I'd like to see two things happen with the current combat system:

First, I'd like to see damage reduction inherient to armour (the U is the British/Canadian method of spelling) pieces, so you only get the reduced damage for a hit on that location (so no ascalon gloves, gladiator everything else so you look dorky).

Secondly, I'd like to see attack skills that make use of the locational system. Like Pin Down being a foot only attack, or Distracting Shot being limited to hands (hard to concentrate when you've got an arrow shaft stuck through your hand). This way it might be possible to effectively protect one's self against certain attacks (like necromancer bone armour gloves and boots to reduce the above damage).

Just my thoughts, they have no bearing on the results of this thread and make no claims except one. I don't give a damn about effective damage reduction, I'm sticking with matching armour (http://cascadefailure.keenspace.com/d/20050502.html) instead.

Linea
04-06-2005, 00:33
I didn't see this mentioned elsewhere, so here's my question:

All Elemental Attacks, with only two exceptions, are modified by armor.

All physical attacks and projectile attacts, with a couple of execeptions, are modified by armor.

The majority of smite spells deal holy damage and most of these, but not all, ignore armor.

I know health dengeneration attacks ignore armor.

Do any Shadow, Chaos, and Dark damage types Ignore Armor ?

Do Necro Health stealing spells like Vampiric Touch Ignore Armor ?

Thanks,

Miss Lewis
04-06-2005, 00:34
1. Ok armor like drakescale that has a fire resistance built in, you're saying that wearing just one piece of it will affect ALL pieces of armor? (true or false)

If thats the case...you can be fully armored against basically anything and everything.

chrystianek
04-06-2005, 01:04
nice rah
owning with info again
rah is the guy that helped to develop most of best assassins build with his testing info

thx dude that u take time to do the same with this game

steele
04-06-2005, 02:47
so basically, knights armor isn't the best? dmg reduction isn't per piece? its like if you have the helmet, then thats all you get? so the whole set is useless, because it doesn't stack? then whats th best to get?

Torm Shadowbane
04-06-2005, 02:59
SonOfRah-
Can I get a quick yes or no? If you have -5 Damage Reduction on your armor (Knights Armor + Sup Rune) and have damage reduction on your shield does it stack? I know you said -5 is the MAX Damage Reduction, but I am unclear if that is just for the Armor and not the Shield, or if it is the MAX Damage Reduction possible.

Thanks. :p

provoko
04-06-2005, 03:15
I think that we should get SonofRah to do a quick summary, with a full explanation of that damage equation (value of baseline and all).

After that, we should get this thread closed.

I agree somewhat. Remember 'verytired' started this thread. We should encourage sonofra to post his own topic with all the information he provided; he should post it here or in the warrior forum (it'll most likely get stickied). I think thats his intention.

Hey sonofra, when you gonna make a topic with this info in it?

Torm Shadowbane, I think sonofra mentioned that the sheild adds to your armor when being attacked from the front and the extra damage reduction stacks.

Feynt
04-06-2005, 03:58
so basically, knights armor isn't the best? dmg reduction isn't per piece? its like if you have the helmet, then thats all you get? so the whole set is useless, because it doesn't stack? then whats th best to get?

That's the long and short of it, but you need a piece that reduces damage (the helm doesn't). So knight gauntlets and platemail for the rest would work. I say screw it all though, go with one type. Looking like a twit is not worth losing 2 points of damage in combat.

SonOfRah
04-06-2005, 06:43
That's the long and short of it, but you need a piece that reduces damage (the helm doesn't). So knight gauntlets and platemail for the rest would work. I say screw it all though, go with one type. Looking like a twit is not worth losing 2 points of damage in combat.
except that the ascalon helm is mad cool with the gladiator armor.... plus you get a bonus to tactics...

Ammar
04-06-2005, 12:29
After reading these posts, can someone please tell me if what im saying is right.

Im trying to create a pvp char and not sure Im understanding this system completely. If the Knights armor applies teh reduces dmg affect globaly then having knights gauntlets is good enough. Furthermore combining this with a sup absorbtion rune on any piece of armor regardless will stack wth the dmg reduction. Now if this is all true is it better to apply a superior rune of vigor towards an armor with more armor rating such as plaitmail with +20AL or better to place it on any armor and have a health mod of +30?

If im understanding the system correctly, then having knights gauntlets, with plaitmail curiass (due to the fact that lighning etc. attack on curiass), along with gladiator boots with an absorption rune applied on any of the armor will give me +3 energy from glad armor, dmg reduction from knights and rune, and better defence against ele/melee attack on chest will all be applied globaly? or will having 2 glad armor increase energy to 6 and stack?

In theory if I apply a sup vigor rune and apply a sup axe mastery rune will the health afects cancel each other out causing me to lose only 20 health?

Any help on which way to go for best pvp armor will be appreciated.

Vigo Sorlen
04-06-2005, 17:40
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but couldn't find it anywhere. Someone told me that a spell or attack may hit a specific body location, so if you have different armour on that location, it will have a different result? But I assumed the armour stacked, so I have a mixture of elementalist armour to give me some protection from each element? Am I wasting my time?
Does armour 45 lessen damage from each blow by 45 points/45% or what? If your armour does total 200 or something... darn I just like to know how things work.... :confused:
thanks! :D

jettoki sora
04-06-2005, 17:47
Check your private messages, Vigo

steele
04-06-2005, 18:18
sonofra, i wanna hear from you, getting the knights whole set will still give me the same reduction as one peice? if so... wow... but yes or no?

Vigo Sorlen
04-06-2005, 18:31
Thanks! Very informative! :happy34:
For people reading this pondering the same question, the answer is yes, attacks hit random body-parts (although always-hit attacks like spells hit your chest-plate).
And your armour level corresponds with a percentage damage taken, on a scale running through:
AL20 = 200%
AL60 = 100%
AL100 = 50%

steele
04-06-2005, 19:26
so getting the whole knights set it like getting one peice? basically...? :(

Kicey
05-06-2005, 04:03
Wow.

SonOfRah, thanks for sharing all of that information. I hadn't realized the complexity of the system (or simplicity?) until reading the thread. This is definitely a must-read for anyone who plays GW.

Kicey
05-06-2005, 04:07
so getting the whole knights set it like getting one peice? basically...? :(

Just read the whole thread. Any questions you have have probably been asked and answered.


If you have any part of the ascalon or knights armor, you get the global -2 absorption benifit. It doesn't matter if you have only one piece, you still get the lot.

skuldnoshinpu
05-06-2005, 21:32
So from what I understand, the armor modifier works like:

1-minute graph made in Excel (http://www.bitterasianmen.com/gamevids/gwarmor.jpg)

Which implies diminishing returns, so for instance an Elementalist with 60 AL would benefit more from an Armor+4 focus than a Warrior with 85 AL would. Interesting.

SonOfRah
05-06-2005, 22:10
So from what I understand, the armor modifier works like:

1-minute graph made in Excel (http://www.bitterasianmen.com/gamevids/gwarmor.jpg)

Which implies diminishing returns, so for instance an Elementalist with 60 AL would benefit more from an Armor+4 focus than a Warrior with 85 AL would. Interesting.
Err, I'm not sure if I follow that.

Armor and damage is all relative to the basepoint. Pick any armor value. Now increase it by x amount and compare the damage difference. Now pick another armor value, and increase it by the same amount and again compare the damage difference. The damage decrease is identical for both cases.

A warrior with a +4AL focus gets the exact same damage reduction as a Elementalist with a +4AL focus.

In general gameplay however, you won't really notice this (or it is not as apparent) at high AL values because it becomes harder to see it since the damage you recieve is (obviously) smaller than what you'd recieve at lower values. The smaller the number values, the less you can accurately test the damage effect changes due to the damage getting rounded.

eg:
40 physical damage.

Elementalist
60AL -> 40 damage recieved
64AL (focus) -> 37.32 damage, gets rounded to 37 actual damage (displayed)
37/40 = 92.5% damage, or a 7.5% damage reduction

Warrior
100AL -> 20 damage recieved
104AL (focus) -> 18.66 damage, gets rounded to 19 actual damage (displayed).
19/20 = 95%, or a 5% damage reduction.

However, the actual reduction is identical. 37.32/40 = 18.66/20 = 0.933, which is 93.3% or a 6.7% damage reduction.

skuldnoshinpu
05-06-2005, 23:18
Well yes, I understand the relative percent reduction is the same, but in terms of absolute value reduction it's not. In your example, as you pointed out, the Ele receives 3 less dmg, while the warrior receives 1 less. I'm simply thinking in terms of an elementalist might want to equip some item that has the 'armor+4' feature since they'll take 3 less damage per hit, whereas the warrior probably wouldn't care to waste that item slot.

Hanuman Li Tosh
06-06-2005, 01:06
Thanks for the awesome info SonofRah, it really helps. also makes me realize that my necro warrior is going to be a walking lightning rod with his chest all carved up and no armor. oh well.

the information will definately help out my PVP warriors tho.

a Mirkwood spider
06-06-2005, 11:26
Thanks! Very informative! :happy34:
For people reading this pondering the same question, the answer is yes, attacks hit random body-parts (although always-hit attacks like spells hit your chest-plate).
And your armour level corresponds with a percentage damage taken, on a scale running through:
AL20 = 200%
AL60 = 100%
AL100 = 50%

So with each 40 AL the damage is halved, a linear relation.

Hmm, interesting. So the Necromancer 'Weaken Armor' skill (WA) will probably affect all pieces of armor. If that is the case, and your AL vs Damage list is correct this would mean that this spell lets you deal 50 % more (physical) damage against foes.
AL20 = 200% with WA becomes AL0 = 300 %, that's 50 % extra damae
AL60 = 100% with WA becomes AL40 = 150 %, again 50 % extra damage
AL100 = 50% with WA becomes AL80 = 75 %, again 50 % extra damage

I was wondering about this. Soo thumbs up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weaken Armor - Curses Hex Spell
For 10-34 seconds, target foe has a -20 armor penalty against physical damage.

SonOfRah
06-06-2005, 13:43
So with each 40 AL the damage is halved, a linear relation.
No, you have to remember that it isn't linear.

easy to see.

start at -> 0AL, 100 damage
40AL, 50 dmg
80AL, 25dmg
120AL, 13dmg

The armor increase is linear, but the actual damage is smaller the higher you go. Thus it is an exponential relationship between AL and Damage. The decay for this is 40.

if you want to see the effects that a certain amount of armor will provide, thats relatively easy to do.

2^(-x/40), where x is the amount of armor we are giving to the target.

Weaken armor is -20 (because we are removing that amount of AL), so we use that.

2^(20/40) = 2^0.5 = square root of 2 = 1.4142

This is basically saying that we get a 41.42% damage increase when we put weaken armor (remove 20AL) on the target.

Also. 2^(-20/40) = 0.7071, which is saying that we have a 29.29% damage decrease whenever we add on 20 armor to the target (eg: watch youself).

You have to remember that this is all relative - and it is an exponential equation.

Derenek
06-06-2005, 21:40
The flaw I see in this argument is that you are calculating means and averages based upon a sample. A sample that uses random damage of whatever the enemy can inflict, while SonofRha calculated his reductions based upon damage inflicted from an enemy that attacks with a constant damage level so you get reproducible results. It's possible that on one of your runs, the charr mentioned was having a bad day. May he hits 11 to 22, and just hit a streak of 11's or a streak of 22's. Do to chance this is possible. We see plenty of people play the game for 180 hours and never find a sup rune and plenty who play for 60 and have a dozen of em sitting around. The above study relies on random sampling and is subject to a margin of error. If that margin of error is +-1% great, but what if it's +- 10%? Have you repeated the 120 samples of each type of armor multiple times? That would really help you flesh out your probability study. The trends are indicative of something but I would not say conclusive.

Actually I just realized the larger flaw. Your argument relies on multiple pieces of armor to show decresed damage. This is because the enemy, hitting an unarmored part of your body does more damage, and depending on where you are wearing your two pieces (legs/arms) you'd probably recieve more dagmage than if you were to just wear chest. This is another reason why averaging, with a enemy that does a range of damage is a flawed way to test. It doesn't prove that reduced damage stacks, just that wearing armor on more parts of your body does less damge. The fact that the enemy hits different parts of your body really makes it difficult to analyze the results of your study. You also have the randomness of what if on a particular run, you had a string of contact with the chest, while the next time he focused on your head.

It's also unfortunate to see the sup rune only reduce by 2 when it should reduce by 3. This leads me to believe that you have error in the study of at least +/-1 if not more. (Assuming the ANet guys know the difference between -2 and -3 and I'm going to give them that one)

Just a little more...I think an interesting run to do that everyone would like to see is what are the results of all platemail with 1 knights (with and without a rune used). Can you do that?


Understand that statitical analysis is going to always be based upon a sample. We purposely used the number 120 per style of damage as it would lead to a decent variation of attacks. The statitstical probablity of the aataxxes rolling double damage attacks enough times during that sample number isn't very large. Also consider that each variable was tested using that same number. That means we have a sample size of over 1000 attacks.

Standard Z distribution in statistical analysis shows our marghin of error was very small. We can show with about 95% confidence the validity of the statistical data, just by using standard probability equations and doing sum of squares.

The initial results are very compelling as they show a linear decrease in armor absorbtion as you go down in amount of knights armor. After a sample of over 1000 attacks there is a very strong likelihood that our study was indeed accurate. If the attacks were in fact distirbuted in a random fashion throwing off our results we would have seen more outliers in the test results.

So once again I can say we are very confident that the statistical averages show a definite trend in damage reduction as you stack on more knights armor.

It is easy to try and debunk people's work, but honestly anyone with any common sense can see with the descending linear nature of damage taken in ratio to the amount of knights armor worn, that a full suit is indeed superior to piecemeal.

bardolph
06-06-2005, 21:57
As usual, if you think it's bad game design, stop playing. You should go play D2 or something. Oh wait, I forgot, 98% of the full sets on that game sucked and it's hacked to hell. As for me, I'll stick with full knight armor. I don't give two ****s about twinking, and I don't play PvP hardcore enough to care.
No, I'll just play the game as designed, and buy one piece of one armor set, and the rest from another armor set. My problem is that most options get ruled out, because the bad game design makes them inferior. So, I'll go into battle with the same twinked-out, stupid-looking, identical armor set that everyone else has.

Traylorre
06-06-2005, 22:57
Being brief. I have read every post here. Son of Rah deserves applaud.

I have read elsewhere (if I remember correctly it was SonofRah's article) that +armor from shields are positional, and just how much of the sides is covered by shields is still debated (so dont turn your back on the enemy)

Q1. +armor form shields/foci/weapons all treated equally (re: positionally)?

Q2. Someone posted a summary of SonofRah's statements (in this thread) but in it stated that ~"Max damage reduction possible is -5"... what happens if I have Sup Absorption (-3), Ascalon gloves (-1) and a -3 shield? (I really don't recall reading SonofRah actually stating this though -- and I read carefully)

kleang
07-06-2005, 13:49
First of all, thank you for both Son and Derenek testing. It's 11 pages of huge information.

I think both of your testing still have not cover all case (I know it huge job for that :p ). As for Son's test, you just test with 1 Ascalon piece of armor.

So, this is my assumption:

Is it possible that absorption from Ascalon/Knight stack? If it stack, we can explain for both testing result. Also, if we believe that all armor created equally, this made Knight Armor valuable as other. If it's not stack, -2 dmg is just no value with high level monster compare to 5 Armor from Plate mail.


Also, is it possible that absorbtion is not linear? Because from Derenek testing seem like Knight Armor is better with high dmg.


Just my 2 cent. :)

SonOfRah
07-06-2005, 17:56
As for Son's test, you just test with 1 Ascalon piece of armor.

Actually, I tested with multiple armor pieces. Same result all of the time. I didn't bother posting it then because it has been previously tested as well as been stated in this thread. It was redundant information, and wasn't needed for the context of my post.

Also, to start with I wore the entire low lvl ascalon set (without the helm), so that I could be certain that the charr hit me on a constant armor piece value. Thus I knew the default damaeg when he hit me on an ascalon armor piece.


Is it possible that absorption from Ascalon/Knight stack? If it stack, we can explain for both testing result. Also, if we believe that all armor created equally, this made Knight Armor valuable as other. If it's not stack, -2 dmg is just no value with high level monster compare to 5 Armor from Plate mail. No, it doesn't stack. Again this has been previously tested, as well as stated in this thread. Both armors also work exactly the same way (also tested).

You also have to understand the basis of the system. Absorption becomes really important with high armor values and high reduction.

You also have to remember that ataxes are not the norm when it comes to monsters. Most monsters don't hit warriors for 80-90 damage.


Also, is it possible that absorbtion is not linear? Because from Derenek testing seem like Knight Armor is better with high dmg.
It is a flat integer reduction. No I am not discounting his results, however the fact remains that the extent of his testing was not enough, nor were the testing conditions static enough to make an accurate assumption of how it works.

Statistical analysis is all fine, but critical hits *will* skew the results because of how they work.

If you were dealing 3-10 damage a hit, a critical will deal 14 damage. However you will not see 11, 12 or 13 occur because it is impossible to occur without outside interference.

Now if you were attacking from behind you might see some 11 and 12's. but criticals would still be 14. Possitioning plays a vital role in the damage you take.

Naylia
07-06-2005, 18:32
Understand that statitical analysis is going to always be based upon a sample. We purposely used the number 120 per style of damage as it would lead to a decent variation of attacks. The statitstical probablity of the aataxxes rolling double damage attacks enough times during that sample number isn't very large. Also consider that each variable was tested using that same number. That means we have a sample size of over 1000 attacks.

Standard Z distribution in statistical analysis shows our marghin of error was very small. We can show with about 95% confidence the validity of the statistical data, just by using standard probability equations and doing sum of squares.

The initial results are very compelling as they show a linear decrease in armor absorbtion as you go down in amount of knights armor. After a sample of over 1000 attacks there is a very strong likelihood that our study was indeed accurate. If the attacks were in fact distirbuted in a random fashion throwing off our results we would have seen more outliers in the test results.

So once again I can say we are very confident that the statistical averages show a definite trend in damage reduction as you stack on more knights armor.

It is easy to try and debunk people's work, but honestly anyone with any common sense can see with the descending linear nature of damage taken in ratio to the amount of knights armor worn, that a full suit is indeed superior to piecemeal.

To be honest Derenk I didn't mean to debunk but tried to offer recommendations about modifications you could make to your study to improve it. There is a nature of randomness in your study which does make it difficult to ***** whether damage is reduced by 1 or 2 as this is in the 2% range of fluctutation when you're talking 80dmg. Still curious about the platemail full set with 1 knights...

Nardolen
07-06-2005, 22:55
Thanks for the great info, SonOfRah!

I'll have to let all my warrior friends know. I'm sure they'll be disappointed about having to switch armors about, but oh well! I just hope they don't mess with the rules. Mechanic changes concern me a great deal in this game.

From what I see here, as an elementalist I'm best off having each of the element chest pieces to swap out but don't need to fear as much from the rest, since spells all penetrate the torso. Has anyone done experiments with armor penetration? I'm curious if 25% means that a quarter of the damage automatically goes through or if your armor is just reduced by 25% in relation to the whole damage of the spell. I imagine that would be rather difficult to calculate, however.

Sorry for drifting a bit off the absorption topic, but it seems that it has been thoroughly answered already if people take the time to read the posts.

davievil
08-06-2005, 07:23
SonOfRah is my hero!

to bad now i have to wear 15k Plate and 1.5k knockdown gloves and 1.5k knight boots. :x

i think that would look the most... not goofy. cause i gotta keep my gloves :(

OH WHY IS THERE NOT A PLATEMAIL KNOCKDOWN GLOVE

WAHHHHh

Galavorn
08-06-2005, 11:05
Can anyone tell me the chances of each part of your body getting hit? I heard the chest is 45%, but what about the others?

hahnsoo
08-06-2005, 11:19
The numbers I've seen are the following:
Chest 37.5%
Leggings 25%
Everything else 12.5%

Mo'Kai
08-06-2005, 16:49
First of all, I'd like to say Thumbs up to Son of Rah for all his research.
Second, I personally would like to see a Stonefist gauntlet seperate model, similar to some sort of Geo Mancer type thing? :happy65:

Thirdly, this Knights Boots thing, and the absorption over all armor, is rediculous.
Any word on if it is purely intentional? Does everyone know about it and have they said, "yes that's what we intended. For everyone to look like complete f--- tards with pieces of different armor. Because we dont want anyone to look cool with a full set of certain armor, and still have an equally balanced dmg/armor rating"

People with full Ascalons or Knights armor are really getting Shafted. Absorption should be piece specific. The 85AL on Plate and 10 vs Physical is really well balanced with the 80AL and 20 vs Physical. And the 80AL and 10 vs Physical with Reduced Dmg from Attacks. It's all nicely balanced, until something like Plate armor gets the Knights Armor Bonus.

ReZon
08-06-2005, 17:02
The numbers I've seen are the following:
Chest 37.5%
Leggings 25%
Everything else 12.5%

Surprising that the head is part of "everything else" . . .

huxley maximus
08-06-2005, 17:14
First of all, I'd like to say Thumbs up to Son of Rah for all his research.
Second, I personally would like to see a Stonefist gauntlet seperate model, similar to some sort of Geo Mancer type thing? :happy65:

Thirdly, this Knights Boots thing, and the absorption over all armor, is rediculous.
Any word on if it is purely intentional? Does everyone know about it and have they said, "yes that's what we intended. For everyone to look like complete f--- tards with pieces of different armor. Because we dont want anyone to look cool with a full set of certain armor, and still have an equally balanced dmg/armor rating"

People with full Ascalons or Knights armor are really getting Shafted. Absorption should be piece specific. The 85AL on Plate and 10 vs Physical is really well balanced with the 80AL and 20 vs Physical. And the 80AL and 10 vs Physical with Reduced Dmg from Attacks. It's all nicely balanced, until something like Plate armor gets the Knights Armor Bonus.
It could just be magically infused with defensive bonuses that apply to your whole body. Its an imaginary world so things like this must be taken into consideration.

bruenor
08-06-2005, 17:18
Talk about a F'tard, my war/elem has on a +1 Swordsmanship helm, Gladiator chest, Ringmail Gauntlets, Gladiator leggings, and ascalon boots so I get the benefits I need. Looks like my mom shopped at the Salvation Army for my character.

WolfRanger
08-06-2005, 17:51
Surprising that the head is part of "everything else" . . .

lol! only if you're a starfish!

hahnsoo
08-06-2005, 18:29
Surprising that the head is part of "everything else" . . .
Maybe I should clarify:
Chest 37.5%
Leggings 25%
Head 12.5%
Feet 12.5%
Gloves 12.5%

endoftheline
15-06-2005, 23:51
Maybe I should clarify:
Chest 37.5%
Leggings 25%
Head 12.5%
Feet 12.5%
Gloves 12.5%

uh.. I thought that the damage is applied gloabally...

ieatrocks
24-06-2005, 15:57
I have a few questions for SonOfRah:

1) On the item modifier page, the shield information states that a -X static, and a -X conditional absorption shield can be spawned. While this may be excessively rare (I've never seen or heard of one) can these occur, and will it stack for a theoretical -11 absorption (2 asc/knights, 3 rune, 3 shield static, 3 shield conditional) ?

2) If we know the chance to hit each location, and we have a variable dmg for the attack, and we have a variable AL, and absorption, there is an equation to relate them, as you've got the numbers handy, can you confirm the following? I assume regular rounding, and that the 25% armor penetration for air spells(and strength) is factored in before the base AL is established. I also use your 40AL = dmg half life equation. The numbers seem accurate, but I've done no extensive testing like yourself, and my math was using fractions of AL half lives, so it will vary a point or two from actual game dmg, but still provide an accurate comparison for set vs set.


Fully Knights/Asc = 100% chance of 90AL/phys, and 80AL/elem with -2 applied to phys dmg.

200 Phys dmg works out to 40, 38 applied.
200 Elem dmg on this setup is 50 (air dmg of 66.66, 67 applied)
100 Phys dmg works out to 20, 18 applied.
100 Elem dmg on this setup is 25 (air dmg of 33.33, 33 applied)
50 Phys dmg works out to 10, 8 applied.
50 Elem dmg on this setup is 12.5 for 13 applied (air dmg of 16.66, 17 applied)


Fully Plate = 100% chance of 95AL/phys 85AL/elem with no reduction of phys dmg

200 Phys dmg works out to 36.36, 36 applied.
200 Elem dmg on this setup is 44.44, 44 applied (air dmg of 62.89, 63 applied)
100 Phys dmg works out to 18.18, 18 applied.
100 Elem dmg on this setup is 22.22 for 22 applied (air dmg of 31.25, 31 applied)
50 Phys dmg works out to 9.09, 9 applied.
50 Elem dmg on this setup is 11.11 for 11 applied (air dmg of 15.72, 16 applied)


Fully Gladiators = 100% chance of 100AL/phys 80AL/elem with no reduction of phys dmg

200 Phys dmg works out to 33.33, 33 applied.
200 Elem dmg on this setup is 50 applied (air dmg of 66.66, 67 applied)
100 Phys dmg works out to 16.66, 17 applied.
100 Elem dmg on this setup is 25 applied (air dmg of 33.33, 33 applied)
50 Phys dmg works out to 8.33, 8 applied.
50 Elem dmg on this setup is 12.5 for 13 applied (air dmg of 16.66, 17 applied)


Mismatch set (Plate chest, Knight/Asc boots or gloves, 3 pieces of Gladiator gear/equiv helm)
*AVG AL value based on 3/8 chance to hit chest, 2/8 chance to hit legs, 1/8 each other piece*
The resulting average is 96.88AL/phys **85AL/elem**(auto hits chest) with -2 on phys dmg

200 Phys dmg works out to 35.21, 33 applied.
200 Elem dmg on this setup is 44.44, 44 applied (air dmg of 62.89, 63 applied)
100 Phys dmg works out to 17.6, 16 applied.
100 Elem dmg on this setup is 22.22 for 22 applied (air dmg of 31.25, 31 applied)
50 Phys dmg works out to 8.8, 7 applied.
50 Elem dmg on this setup is 11.11 for 11 applied (air dmg of 15.72, 16 applied)

3) A lot of people seem intent on discovering the "best" armor/mod setup, and the common answer is "it depends" but there are only a few dependancies, and specific rigs for each of these, best vs. elem, best vs. phys, and best overall (highest possible AL + reduction against each concurrently) Do you, or does anyone have a statistically 'perfect' setup for any of these, since it seems not only possible from my calculations, but remarkably easy to see. Taking into account the fact that spells auto-hit the chest 100% of the time, my fourth example would seem to be the most effective armor setup possible, even without taking modifiers (shield, weapon mods, runes, spells) into account, since they affect globally. Any corrections needed on this?

4) Where does the level modifier factor in to the damage/armor equations? For farming lvl 22-28 mobs, this would be very useful to know. As well, do you have any information on whether skill level in PvP affects the damage equation aside from the dmg increase from a higher skill value?

Thank you in advance for any answers SOR, your thread here intrigued me enough to register on the forums to ask you this. Wonderful work on the information already given.

ieatrocks
24-06-2005, 16:16
Oh and:

5) Distance effects on missile attacks, do you have any information on this to share?

6) Effects on the dmg equation based on whether you're facing the attack, or are being attacked from behind? I haven't tested this, but it does seem an attack to someones back is far more damaging.

Thanks again :)

SonOfRah
24-06-2005, 17:10
1) theoretically it should stack. I've never personally found a shield that had both of those bonuses on it. Do realise that several item modifiers that previously existed are no longer possible.

An example of this is weapons that gave an armor penetration of X. (note, not a % value). this worked exactly like buffs/debuffs did, but is no longer in the game. I mention this mod because it may be re-introduced to the game at a later stage.

If you do happen to come across a shield, feel free to test and let me know.

2) armor penetration reduces the base armor.

the current recognised equation for effective armor level is what I came up with, which is basically:

(base armor + buffs - debuffs)*(armor penetration value) + (armor shift mod)

the armor shift mod (or ASM), is a special modifier which I use to explain how various skill effects occur. Healing signet and frenzy are both -40 for the ASM. (-80 if both are in effect).

It might be off a little bit - but not by much.

I didn't run through and confirm your actual values, but they kinda look alright.

edit//
scratch that, you are assuming the person casting that damage is level 0 with your calculations. Your calcs are correct, but you are not starting at a common point in reference to players.

use this: (base dmg)*2^([60-armor]/40)

the above is accurate for lvl 20 vs lvl 20, and is also accurate if you assume someone has a 12 weapon attribute.

3) possitioning plays an important role for auto-hit spells as well, but in general you can say that they hit the chest.

statiscally, there is no better result when you compare 80AL + 20phys, or the 85AL + 10phys armors. Its like comparing 2 identical cars of the same model/year etc. The red one might go "faster", but the blue one looks cooler.

seriously, it comes down to 1) what you aim to be better armored against (ie: physical dmg, or non-physical dmg) and 2) what looks better to you.

4) basically, every 13 levels above you monsters will deal twice the damage from spells. Every 13 levels above you, monsters will take 1/2 the damage you deal to them. Its not strickly 1/2 or double damage - but it is close enough.

5) distance for missles has no relevance. basically, the further you are away from a missile, the better chance you have to avoid it by dodging. Missiles that have a higher arc are less accurate as well.

6) from the side is ~5% more damage, from behind is ~10% more damage, from above (bows only) is 10-15% more damage. If you score a critical hit however, this extra possitional damage (above/side/behind) does not apply.

ieatrocks
24-06-2005, 23:20
Thank you SonOfRah, I have a couple of other questions then in response

I've calculated for 0/0 vs. 20/12(whoops!), and you've given the 20/12 vs 20/12 equation, but is there no equation which can factor in say, 18/13 or 20/16 ?

Using your (base dmg)*2^([60-armor]/40)=applied dmg equation on my same armor sets:


Set 50P 50E 100P 100E 200P 200E

Underwear 141.5 141.5 283 283 566 566
Knight 29.5(28) 35(50air) 59(57) 70 118(116) 140
Plate 27.5 32.5(47air) 55 65 110 130
Gladiators 25 35(50air) 50 70 100 140
Mismatch 26.5(25) 32.5(47air) 53(51) 65 106(104) 130

Granted, I can't think of any attacks doing a single 200 dmg blow except for possibly UW/FoW spawn, but where that gets really interesting, is when you factor in +16 shield, +5 weapon, +5 shield, and +20 'Watch Yourself', the mismatched set on physical attacks now does only 10 dmg for 50 base, 22 for 100, and only 46 dmg for 200 base attack!

It would also become clear why Air spells are so devastating with "only" 25% armor penetration, the resulting dmg increase is ~43-45%. I think the penetration must work in a different manner than is suggested here.

What is left, is how you arrived at the baseline value of 60 SonOfRah, I get the impression you reverse engineered this number because it fit the damage numbers you found.

What if you found 2 creeps, set 4-6 levels apart, each with "Wild Blow" (preferably the same creatures at different levels) took off all armor, and measured the Wild blow damage at each character level. The same could then be done with a partner in PvP, have them add one point at a time into their attack mastery, and measure avg dmg at each. You could establish a forumla to determine the lvl/skill modifier to your baseline value. It seems that this is the only thing missing.

Mo'Kai
25-06-2005, 03:45
Hmm, thanks a lot guys. :happy14:
*Equips Penetrating Shot and Sundering String*
*Puts Knight Armor in the Bin*
The Knights/Ascalon Bonus really should be Piece Specific. And I was hoping the difference would be hardly anything, but I think the best Suit for me Would probably be Dragon Chest/Legs, Stoneskin Gauntlets, and Knights Boots.
I liked it better in the Betas. When...
Dragon Armor had 80AL, 10 vs Physical, 5 vs Elemental
Plate/Knights had 80AL, 20 vs Physical.
Gladiator had 80AL, 10 vs Physical and Energy Bonus
Ascalon Armor had 80AL, 10 vs Physical and Reduced Damage
I think... I particularly liked the 5 vs Elemental on the Dragon, coz Dragon Scales, deflect Elemental, fluffy padded Ascalon... hello Role Play!

Thanks a lot to all of your Research. :happy65:

aqualung
25-06-2005, 03:52
Not sure if someone already said this but there is a very good post about it in the warrior forum.

Hmmm it seems as if this post is also very indepth, perhaps moreso than the one on the warrior forum, though it is also very thorough.

SonOfRah
25-06-2005, 07:56
What if you found 2 creeps, set 4-6 levels apart, each with "Wild Blow" (preferably the same creatures at different levels) took off all armor, and measured the Wild blow damage at each character level. The same could then be done with a partner in PvP, have them add one point at a time into their attack mastery, and measure avg dmg at each. You could establish a forumla to determine the lvl/skill modifier to your baseline value. It seems that this is the only thing missing.
oh, the baseline value is known. I didn't mention it partly because I'm assuming a level 20 situation (where most players are interested in), and because I've a 95% complete article that is soon to be included here.

spells and all spellweapons -> baseline = 3*CLVL
non-spellweapons ->
baseline = [75/15]*Attribute {0-12 attribute}
baseline = 12*[75/15] + 2*(attribute - 12) {12 or higher attribute)

spell weapons = all rods/staves. non-spellweapons = axe, hammer, sword, bow

as you can see, spells and spellweapons are improved as you level, whilst normal weapons only rely on your weapon attribute.

edit//
I am aware that [75/15] = 5 and 12*[75/15] = 60

they are written that way because it is a base 15 attribute system (thus the /15 part), and it makes it easier to deal with any baseline balance changes they may make (the 75 part).

edit 2//
I derived the basic damage equation from first principals, which I don't mind passing on to other people to look at. The rest of the stuff (level factor etc) which played around with the baseline is just a simple extension of the basic equation, and how the equation actually works.

The Flash
25-07-2005, 00:10
will this work i put sup absorb on my platemail chestpiece armor and knights leggings
and the rest is platemail set

-3 sup absorb on platemail armor

-2 knights leggings

will i get -5 damage?

thanks

Vicious Veratias
25-07-2005, 02:06
Ok, i read up to page 2 or 3, and i believe why anet did this is because... They did say they wanted this game completely fair and equal as stated before, so i bet they thought if they did add hit locales then it would be unfair if someone was wearing gladiator top for the extra energy would get hit in the chest more likely and take more damage, while someone with knights top would take less damage there.

For the sake of having equal protection, they made knights global so that if people really need the extra energy, they can use it without worrying about getting hit in the chest a lot and dieng quickly because the glad chest piece and bottom gives you the most energy.

I know it's unrealistic but they wanted this game equal, so this is my thought on why they did this. I am not saying this is EXACTLY why they did this, but this is my speculation.

fluffer
30-07-2005, 02:29
so the best is mixing and matching armour??? or full plate

if mixing and matching what parts should i get??