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View Full Version : I DESPISE this new Trend of Air Elementalist



Furqan
28-05-2005, 00:55
to start off, I just wanna say this is not a rant, nor a mindless call for "nerf nerf" but a plea from a frustrated PvPer (Rank 3) for some insight here...

well, it's pretty obvious that TONS of PvP teams are now running 2,3 sometimes 4 AIR ELE's on one team. These air ele's do the ol' lightning surge/orb/gale/chain lightning combo, and it is just SHREDDING our teams.

I'm a monk, usually play protection monk. As a rule of thumb, I'll chain Life Bond on all my teammates, and let them essence bond off me for the VERY HIGH energy regen. I also bring Protective Spirit to lessen the damge to 10% of energy and soften the blow from the 170 dmage that these Air Ele's are dealing sometimes. Also on my team will be 2 Healing Monks who are very competent, and are good about seeding, orisoning whoever is gettin hit.

but with all this, all it takes is for the other team to just target one person with 3-4 air ele's, and they're dropped. The Life Bond I throw on them is not enough to lessen the blow, the shock damage is WAYYY too fast and WAYYY too strong for any word of healing, orison, hell even insta-case reversal of fortune to be effective at all. If i'm lucky, I might get a chance to throw protective spirit in the 1 second notice I have between the time they're gettin hit and the time they fall.

But if I do manage to get it on them, prot spirit has a long cooldown, and all it takes is a simple switch target from the other team and boom the next target is helpless to the oncoming shock damage, even with 3 monks ready and waiting to heal/protect them.

so ok, maybe you might say with the exhaustion and heavy energy drain, that all it takes it just to withstand the first barrage, res up, and fight the ele's when they have less energy. The problem is your DP really begins to hurt you, and eventually you're getting ONE-SHOTTED from these air ele's (which is a really sad feeling lol)

you might say, well just mesmer up and lock em down. my team runs with 2 mesmers, and with 3 air ele's on their team,it's still too much to lockdown effectively. Ward Against Elements is not very effective with the Armor Penetration...

so this is a plea for help: Is there a counter you all have found that is effective against these Air Ele's? From the massive influx of Air Ele's, it doesn't seem so, as most teams have adopted the "if you can't beat em, join em" mentality...

is it time to start thinking about the "n" word with these air ele's? (nerf)

Hart
28-05-2005, 02:42
Quickening Zephyr to raise energy costs, Protective Bond on primary targets with constant Vigorous Spirit to protect it from Shatter Enchantment, and enchantment removal/energy denial focused on the elementalists.

Without Air Attument and Elemental Attunement to keep their casting costs down, and with Quickening Zephyr driving the casting cost of their spells up, the elementalists will be working in VERY short bursts. This may be enough to take down a player or two; but if you've got energy denial Rangers or Mesmers working on them you can prevent them from regaining enough mana to do anything useful after the short initial assault has passed.

If you're lucky, and they target a player with Protective Bond on and don't get the bond with anti-enchant, that player can suck up a LOT of bolts before they go down. Even with 4 Air eles pounding on him, he's got a good 5-6 seconds of life because they have to hit him 20 times and casting speed is seldom less than a second.

Of course, if you're running air elementalists, you can prevent this by using Rend Enchantments or Lingering Curse to wipe out any enchantment on the target. The energy denial and enchantment shattering against the elementalists will be more difficult to prevent, especailly if you're running a 3-4 ele build as you typically won't have enough teammates left to do much else beyond healing.

Oh, and I forgot to mention Divine Intervention.. seems like it could be used here, though I'm not sure how.

WolfieMcNasty
28-05-2005, 05:48
I've been complaining about this to my guild. I even started playing an air ele in case it doesn't get changed. This is the first major imbalance I've come across that isn't bug related. It seems to me the most logical defense is to find a way to utilize ranger primaries for studded armor to get as much protection as possible. Perhaps a decent team with some R/Mes would stand a chance. Studded armor Mantra of Lit? You'd take minimal damage and they'd have low nrg based on 1 skill, leaving 7 at your disposal, many of which can easily be geared towards anti-caster (choking gas, distracting shot, blackout, backfire, etc).

I think the biggest thing with this trend is surviving the initial assault. I haven't lasted long enough against one of these teams to really see how those air eles are fairing after they unleash the combo of death. That's 20 points of exhaustion and almost all of their mana, right there, though.

It seems crappy to have to use a build just cuz you're scared of enemies rolling in with that build, but welcome to guildwars. This is almost how it has to be. There need to be teams that dominate certain types of teams and other teams that dominate other types of teams...it's how balance works. The trick atm is figuring out a counter to this 4 air ele build. Cuz i'll tell ya what...4 chain lit at once? That aint pretty.

Edit: Heal Area...this very simple skill cancels a chain lightning. Form a small group, and spam it. It's another strategy i've considered.

AlucardInsig
28-05-2005, 10:48
That can only be because you guys have no skills and coorperation, or else may be your team build is just weak against it.

rangers, mesmers and >>>SMART<<< monk is all u need.

drop the warriors.

dirtycash
28-05-2005, 11:08
That can only be because you guys have no skills and coorperation, or else may be your team build is just weak against it.

rangers, mesmers and >>>SMART<<< monk is all u need.

drop the warriors.

Uncalled for.

Perhaps you haven't seen good Air Eles. Sure I kill alot of weak Air Ele teams with my mes, but when you run into a good team... there is virtually nothing you can do. The spike of damage occurs so sharply Word of Healing is still nothing.

Ice Blessings
28-05-2005, 14:58
Your right.. there is absouletly nothing we can do.. they are too powerful and strong.. so lets just all sit here instead of figure out a way to overcome such a drastic combo.

Okay well looks look at a few facts.

1. Elemtalists armor isn't all that great.. there for focus your energy on 1 target.. spiliting NEVER helps.

2. Energy seems to be the primary use of Elemintalists (with a great cost too).. so what do you do? Cast Energy Drains on them with anti spell moves.

The reason why Ele's have Energy storage is because their magic costs so much.. if you can get that down to 0 constantly.. problem solved..

Overall if chain lighting is a Area Effect thing, have your party split up and don't stick together.

Ele's can be beat.. you just have to find a good counter. And although they have devestating strength.. with the right manuvers and tactics you can make them look like crap.


~Ice Blessings~

DutchSmurf
28-05-2005, 16:43
Power Block is an option, but is elite:
Description: If target foe is casting a spell, that spell is interrupted. The interrupted spell and all spells of the same attribute are disabled for 3-13 seconds for that foe. This is an elite skill.
Energy Cost: 15
Activation Time: 1/4th of a Second.
Recharge Time: 30 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Domination Magic. Increases duration.
Skill Type: Spell.

All good air spells take 2 seconds to cast, so you can stop them for 13 secondes. And all other interrupt spells work too. Chaos Storm can help too. Backfire combined with another hex ofcourse.

Distracting Shot, Concussion Shot, Punishing Shot, Savage Shot, Choking Gas and Incendiary Arrows of the Ranger are possible too.
Skull Crack, Dwarven Battle Stance, Savage Slash and Disrupting Chop of the Warrior.

And then the N/Me has some spells that can remove all regen of an Elementalist

Spell Breaker (Monk skill) can be really nice too if you know who is the target.
Description: For 5-15 seconds, enemy spells targeted against target ally fail. This is an elite skill.
Guardian can help a little too. Mark of Protection ofcourse. Protective Spirit and Protective Bond.
Holy Wrath probably would be fun to watch. Even more when combined with Retribution. Shield of Judgment can really slow the Air E's.

Lots of possible ways. Most of them work with other casters too. No idea which one works best, neither do I know if they work. But we will probably see more and more Mesmers as secundary instead of monk.

dirtycash
28-05-2005, 18:59
Your right.. there is absouletly nothing we can do.. they are too powerful and strong.. so lets just all sit here instead of figure out a way to overcome such a drastic combo.

Okay well looks look at a few facts.

1. Elemtalists armor isn't all that great.. there for focus your energy on 1 target.. spiliting NEVER helps.

2. Energy seems to be the primary use of Elemintalists (with a great cost too).. so what do you do? Cast Energy Drains on them with anti spell moves.

The reason why Ele's have Energy storage is because their magic costs so much.. if you can get that down to 0 constantly.. problem solved..

Overall if chain lighting is a Area Effect thing, have your party split up and don't stick together.

Ele's can be beat.. you just have to find a good counter. And although they have devestating strength.. with the right manuvers and tactics you can make them look like crap.


~Ice Blessings~


Lets see, you just told us to:

1. Don't split up, concentrate on one target.
2. Split up, chain light won't hurt then.

What you fail to realize is when you face a 4 ele team, sure I can energy drain one, backfire one. However, I cannot drain 1's entire energy supply. I'm sorry, you just can't drain nearly 90 energy. In addition to the fact that as soon as I do.... they definately notice. Then guess who just became public enemy #1?

I like how you say that Ele are the squishies. Like we don't know that. Problem is, what if they have 3 monks, like the team I faced last night in the HoH? Who do you go for? You could beat on them all day long and not do jack with 3 monks healing/protecting. So you have to kill the monks. Guess what happens while you are in that process?



And Dutch you are pretty much on target. I carry Power Block all the time. Its nice to shut one of them down for a little bit at least. But as I said above, when I do, it definately gets noticed.

nuble
28-05-2005, 19:20
btw guys,


While you maintain this enchantment, whenever target other ally takes damage from an attack, half the damage is redirected to you. The damage you receive this way is reduced by 3-25 points.

spells aren't attacks. your life bond isn't good for those.

shiby
28-05-2005, 22:10
you could try running ward against harm + ward against elements not sure if they stack tho

DutchSmurf
29-05-2005, 00:08
btw guys,



spells aren't attacks. your life bond isn't good for those.

Are you sure? As far as I know this include all damage except DoT and sacrifice.

AlucardInsig
29-05-2005, 01:52
Lets see, you just told us to:

1. Don't split up, concentrate on one target.
2. Split up, chain light won't hurt then.

What you fail to realize is when you face a 4 ele team, sure I can energy drain one, backfire one. However, I cannot drain 1's entire energy supply. I'm sorry, you just can't drain nearly 90 energy. In addition to the fact that as soon as I do.... they definately notice. Then guess who just became public enemy #1?

I like how you say that Ele are the squishies. Like we don't know that. Problem is, what if they have 3 monks, like the team I faced last night in the HoH? Who do you go for? You could beat on them all day long and not do jack with 3 monks healing/protecting. So you have to kill the monks. Guess what happens while you are in that process?



And Dutch you are pretty much on target. I carry Power Block all the time. Its nice to shut one of them down for a little bit at least. But as I said above, when I do, it definately gets noticed.


You have to split up your standing place, but dont split the fire, unless you have 8 warrior this shouldn't be hard, most profession in GW are ranged

Vitamins
29-05-2005, 03:14
Mantra of Lightning(Mesmer subs jobs away!)

Amity, pacifism (Whats that mr. elementalist? You dont like me? good.)

Mark of Protection, Reversal of fortune (It negates dmg and instead heals them when they get hit. Have ppl cast on themselves so a monk doesnt have to watch your health bar and the enemy casting spells?)

Vengence!!! (allies do not gain death penalty from dieing from a vengence res) light of dwayna might be useful but I dunno... considering the gale knockdown thing you mentioned.

TheNug
29-05-2005, 05:30
i know for sure that amity/pacifism don't work for spells

hmm the only things i can think of off the top of my head is spell breaker and obsidian flesh

Nanila
29-05-2005, 07:16
Mantra of Lightning(Mesmer subs jobs away!)

Amity, pacifism (Whats that mr. elementalist? You dont like me? good.)

Mark of Protection, Reversal of fortune (It negates dmg and instead heals them when they get hit. Have ppl cast on themselves so a monk doesnt have to watch your health bar and the enemy casting spells?)

Vengence!!! (allies do not gain death penalty from dieing from a vengence res) light of dwayna might be useful but I dunno... considering the gale knockdown thing you mentioned.


Amity and Pacifism does NOTHING for spells, all it means is that the Elementalist can no longer wack you with their wand. I've had several monks cast that on me and I just laugh, since I still just keep attacking them with my spells.

Mantra of Lightning helps a good amount though, I've been using that in pvp recently and it does really lower the damage they do with air spells.

Nobleman Azure
29-05-2005, 11:38
being an energy denial mesmer i make air elementalists run in circles screaming for heals as they get constantly mind wracked; they ARE the ones helping me mind wrack themselves by slapping exhaustions and stuff on their energy bar.

When my team goes PVPing i encourage them to alert us (through voice chat) about threats and these threats usually are air elementalists, so i get sent to take care of them in the meantime.

Furqan
29-05-2005, 11:48
well last nite (Friday nite - around 2am PST) I ran with a group of 3 Air Ele's/3 Monks/1 Warrior and a Mesmer (me). The individual players on our team were realy not that great, I think I was the highest ranked at 190 fame.

Still, our build was just absolutely RIPPING through every team we met... Casters throw essence bond on the protection monk and use the endless energy pool to just shock damage over any healing the other team could do . The only time we'd have trouble was against other teams with Air Ele's, but even then that just meant we had a couple of deaths before winning.

The whole time, we were noticing that the same Korean Guild kept winning the Tombs over and over and over. We finally met them in the HoH, and lo and behold they had Air Elementalists as well... except they only had 7 people. 2 Air Ele's (one being an E/N), 1 Mes/Nec, 2 monks, and 2 Warriors. I was really impressed by their ability to squeeze out the DPS out of the 2 Ele's+Warriors, and they were really skilled with their wards/wells (ugh on well of the profane)...

they promptly whooped us... we met them again in the HoH, only to get beat again by them. I actually didn't felt all bad getting beat, as it showed me that the stacked Air build CAN be defeated.

coincidentally, today I PvP'd in the tombs for a few hours, and *EVERY SINGLE WINNING TEAM* was running at least 2 Air Ele's, with the exception of the Idiot Savants Guild, who rolled with 3 warriors, and made it work with an adrenaline build-up strat (which was also really effective versus our Air Ele's)...

someone made a good point earlier, that when you notice that each team demands that all Elementalists run Air or they get booted, it's clear one line is overpowered. I wonder how long it'll take before an effective counter is popularized, and we move to the next GW PvP fad...

Graphite
29-05-2005, 15:36
Im getting tired of hearing people cry about builds that work, it is not nerfed. I run a air elementalist RPG character. I got a rank of 2 and fame of 85 but what the hell me and my pickup group won HoH this morning 2 times in a row with our build and once with only 7 people. We got whooped several times too. If you can't take em then you need to practice more. I've seen equally built teams, usually top 15 guilds take out our air and monk team build. Just play smart.

My pickup group team builds usually look like this

3 or 4 Air Elementalist
3 Monks
1 Necro
1 Warrior

My guild runs a different type build which is more "standard" amongst other guilds.


being an energy denial mesmer i make air elementalists run in circles screaming for heals as they get constantly mind wracked; they ARE the ones helping me mind wrack themselves by slapping exhaustions and stuff on their energy bar.

When my team goes PVPing i encourage them to alert us (through voice chat) about threats and these threats usually are air elementalists, so i get sent to take care of them in the meantime.


This guy knows how to take out air elementalist, now start getting some mesmers like this guy and you'll be able to counter elementalist in no time.


Here is my Air Ele Build just for **** and giggles

Air Magic - 16 (Superior Rune of Air Magic +3 and Storm Eye +1)
Energy Storage - 13

I run around with around 479 HP and 79 Energy.

My skills look like this

Lightening Javelin, Lightening Orb, Lightening Strike, Enervating Charge, Chain Lightening, Glyph of Elemental Power, Air Attunement, Lightening Surge (I barely EVER use this, it doesnt even have 25% armor penetration so I dont know why people use this as a example of getting OWNED).

Vitamins
29-05-2005, 19:48
Sorry I've never actually used pacifism and amity in game I just wanted to think up of ways to counter this lightning thing.

WolfieMcNasty
30-05-2005, 07:10
I wuv you guys! Good thoughts. I very much like the thought of using that power block skill. Do you know where it's found? I'm switching to R/Me in a little bit to pick up some mesmer skills. I still rock as an R/W though!

dirtycash
30-05-2005, 08:48
I wuv you guys! Good thoughts. I very much like the thought of using that power block skill. Do you know where it's found? I'm switching to R/Me in a little bit to pick up some mesmer skills. I still rock as an R/W though!

Power block is just outside in Perdition Rock.

Furqan
30-05-2005, 09:01
didn't mean this to be a whining thread, but was meant for two purposes:

1) Am I the only one who notices this new trend?
2) What effective counters have you found?

--> The most effective counter I've seen is just runnin spell breaker, mark of protection, or protective spirit. Really important to stack another enchantment on top of these enchants, so they aren't shattered/drained...

dirtycash
30-05-2005, 11:13
Im getting tired of hearing people cry about builds that work, it is not nerfed. I run a air elementalist RPG character. I got a rank of 2 and fame of 85 but what the hell me and my pickup group won HoH this morning 2 times in a row with our build and once with only 7 people. We got whooped several times too. If you can't take em then you need to practice more. I've seen equally built teams, usually top 15 guilds take out our air and monk team build. Just play smart.

My pickup group team builds usually look like this

3 or 4 Air Elementalist
3 Monks
1 Necro
1 Warrior

My guild runs a different type build which is more "standard" amongst other guilds.




This guy knows how to take out air elementalist, now start getting some mesmers like this guy and you'll be able to counter elementalist in no time.


Here is my Air Ele Build just for **** and giggles

Air Magic - 16 (Superior Rune of Air Magic +3 and Storm Eye +1)
Energy Storage - 13

I run around with around 479 HP and 79 Energy.

My skills look like this

Lightening Javelin, Lightening Orb, Lightening Strike, Enervating Charge, Chain Lightening, Glyph of Elemental Power, Air Attunement, Lightening Surge (I barely EVER use this, it doesnt even have 25% armor penetration so I dont know why people use this as a example of getting OWNED).

Did you have a point?

Or were you trying to prove our point, that if you have teams built the same, and one is well more skilled.... then they win.

We've destroyed many an air ele team. Just because they have 4 air eles doesn't mean they are good. You don't have to pass an intelligence test to create a character. Its when you have a good team that is well coordinated... air eles rule.

As it has been said already, when every team is requesting air eles. When most of all the teams that are winning are running air eles... there is a problem.

You don't even know why energy surge is so good? Should I have even bothered writing this if you don't understand that? You aren't even running Elemental Attunement which is a huge part of the build.


Also, to the energy denial mesmer.... you cannot deny all 4 of them. When they figure out (good teams) that there is a capable mesmer on the other side, you just put a huge bullseye on yourself.

Best thing we can figure is when you see energy surge on yourself, let your team know to protect you. However, the lame part is... they can just switch targets, which means you just wasted your elite protection spell or whatever.

Jahoclave
30-05-2005, 12:28
3 or more rangers will help you greatly here.

It took br over ten minutes to take us out in the tombs today simply because of how much interupting we threw at them between our two rangers and our mesmer. Our biggest problem is our other ranger doesn't have a lot of pvp expience yet. But we took out about three of their elementals and one of their monks.

pollo loco
30-05-2005, 13:00
Having read some of this i am worried and i have thought of a strategy that may be completely silly and untenable as i haven't got my copy yet so i don't know. I was wondering how many approaches towards the enemy on a PvP arena there are. If there are multiple approaches, would a couple of fast warriors be able to outflank the air Eles while they're busy focusing on the rest of the team enough to get up close and personal where they stand a better chance of beating the elementals?

PL

hireath
30-05-2005, 13:59
lol, i have seen groups of 8 air elementals on the way to HoH.

it is actually more tricky to heal if they pick different targets, because we had a lot of healing power focused onto their primary target. a lot of critical health times, but it seemed they lacked anything to finish people off.

if things go well for them, the team of 8 ele can take out your team pretty fast. but anything goes wrong and they lose, no question. it was actually in the later stage, so they must have beaten at least 2-3 teams before losing to us.

edit: mesmer, ranger and even hammer warrior are very effective against any caster.

the beauty of this game is everything is overpowered, but there is always a special build to beat it.

you really need a bit of luck, because whatever strategy you use, there is always counter. if you go for versatility, you are too weak.

the most adventurous and crazy thing you try, will usually win. because there aint a chance in hell other people will have a counter build.

Taylor Polynomial
30-05-2005, 19:57
I'm a monk, usually play protection monk. As a rule of thumb, I'll chain Life Bond on all my teammates, and let them essence bond off me for the VERY HIGH energy regen. I also bring Protective Spirit to lessen the damge to 10% of energy and soften the blow from the 170 dmage that these Air Ele's are dealing sometimes. Also on my team will be 2 Healing Monks who are very competent, and are good about seeding, orisoning whoever is gettin hit.


As a bond-running monk, you may want to consider placing Protective Bond on your monks before you start throwing out lifebonds. Your mana battery is going to start slower, but then their chain lightning can only do 28ish (kinda funny to see that ;) ).

Naturally, the smart team can stop this by stripping the enchantment. Laying another enchantment on top of this is ok for most novice groups. More experienced teams I've fought typically start off by rend enchantments (unless you have 9 enchantments on your monk...he's not gonna live) and then shatter/strip/inspired enchantments to strip the next target of the bonds.

----------
So, we need some kind of protection that isn't centered around enchantments, don't we? One thing I was thinking about this morning was using something like Spirit of Winter to turn all damage to cold, then monk/mesmers using Mantra of Frost. That should cut down the damage a bit. The reason I don't jump straight to mantra of lightning is that this will cut down fire eles too, and chances are the enemy armor isn't strong against ice. The mantras are a stance, not an enchantment, and the spirit is a global effect, so this is harder to stop.

Taxed
30-05-2005, 20:46
What about a couple hammer warriors to knock the ele's on their butts? Can't cast when lying on the ground. That'll buy some time for the 2 mesmers to drain the energy while the 3 monks work at keeping the warriors alive, along with a necro or ranger in the party....

Furqan
30-05-2005, 20:49
So, we need some kind of protection that isn't centered around enchantments, don't we? One thing I was thinking about this morning was using something like Spirit of Winter to turn all damage to cold, then monk/mesmers using Mantra of Frost. That should cut down the damage a bit. The reason I don't jump straight to mantra of lightning is that this will cut down fire eles too, and chances are the enemy armor isn't strong against ice. The mantras are a stance, not an enchantment, and the spirit is a global effect, so this is harder to stop.

I like this and I've been running Mantra of Lightning with my monk. The problem is this forces all monks to go Mo/Me... kinda lame when you consider some of the really good skills that other professions have to complement the monk class.

Furqan
30-05-2005, 20:54
More experienced teams I've fought typically start off by rend enchantments (unless you have 9 enchantments on your monk...he's not gonna live) and then shatter/strip/inspired enchantments to strip the next target of the bonds.

I don't think Rend Enchantments is *that* godly... it has a 30 second recharge time, and the 3 second activation time makes it very susceptible to an interrupt anyways. Unless the other team is running multiple Necros with rend ready, all it takes it laying another layer of enchants once they rend and you're good for another 30 seconds...

now well of the profane on the other hand... that's a real nasty spell for removing enchants AoE, especially on cap middle/HoH maps.

echidna
30-05-2005, 23:55
Okay this is just a silly idea but think about it. Take one mesmer with power block for each air ele (4 seems to be the standard). So each mesmer power blocks a seperate elementalist, rendering them completely useless for 13 or so seconds. Now on a team of 8, half of them are elementalists, then they should have about 2 monks, and two other classes. Now while you have just limited thier ability to do basically any damage, your mesmers are still cabable of using their regular abilities to take down their monks. meanwhile get a ranger and a warrior, ranger pins an elementalist, and a warrior beats him to the ground, then repeat. with 2 mesmers per monk after the elementalists are shut off, they should go down fast enough, or at least be too busy to heal their elementalists who are in the process of getting owned by the warrior and ranger. This should be THE lame build to counter the "lame" ele biuld

ps. i wanna give a nod to the guy who suggested Quickening Zephyr. I know first hand how annoying that is, and how it would effect their entier build would be great.

dirtycash
31-05-2005, 02:04
Okay this is just a silly idea but think about it. Take one mesmer with power block for each air ele (4 seems to be the standard). So each mesmer power blocks a seperate elementalist, rendering them completely useless for 13 or so seconds. Now on a team of 8, half of them are elementalists, then they should have about 2 monks, and two other classes. Now while you have just limited thier ability to do basically any damage, your mesmers are still cabable of using their regular abilities to take down their monks. meanwhile get a ranger and a warrior, ranger pins an elementalist, and a warrior beats him to the ground, then repeat. with 2 mesmers per monk after the elementalists are shut off, they should go down fast enough, or at least be too busy to heal their elementalists who are in the process of getting owned by the warrior and ranger. This should be THE lame build to counter the "lame" ele biuld

ps. i wanna give a nod to the guy who suggested Quickening Zephyr. I know first hand how annoying that is, and how it would effect their entier build would be great.

I agree a mesmer per ele you face would help tremendously. You should at least control them well. How you will kill them and their three monks with four mesmers is another thing.

Should you run into a typical build though, you will have lots of problems. Get some warriors in your face, and you are done. Then, that is the beauty of GW, no one can be everyone.

Viri
31-05-2005, 02:35
The easiest way for casters to counter air is to go ele as secondary class. There are so many armor buffs there (obsidian flesh, kinetic armor, armor of earth, armor of frost, armor of mist ). There are many counters you just have to be prepared to counter it.(example: dual ward - against elements+against harm = extra 44 armor vs elemental and a lot more vs fire).

echidna
31-05-2005, 05:18
Thing is, while each mesmer only uses one skill slot (power block) they can still have their regular reprotoire of anti mage or anti warrior skills. Backfire, conjure phantasm, phantom pain, power spike, power leak, mind wrack, wrastel's worry are all thing that could bring down those monks.

Taylor Polynomial
31-05-2005, 21:00
If you want to set up a 4 mesmer team to stop that kind of strat, you might be going a little overboard. There's nothing saying that you can't have 2ndary mesmers doing this job, if their primary purpose is to just hit them with an early power block. Like an E/Me that power-blocks, then nukes as normal.

Probably the hardest is coordinating it so everyone PBs someone different.

DutchSmurf
31-05-2005, 21:05
Okay this is just a silly idea but think about it. Take one mesmer with power block for each air ele (4 seems to be the standard). So each mesmer power blocks a seperate elementalist, rendering them completely useless for 13 or so seconds. Now on a team of 8, half of them are elementalists, then they should have about 2 monks, and two other classes. Now while you have just limited thier ability to do basically any damage, your mesmers are still cabable of using their regular abilities to take down their monks. meanwhile get a ranger and a warrior, ranger pins an elementalist, and a warrior beats him to the ground, then repeat. with 2 mesmers per monk after the elementalists are shut off, they should go down fast enough, or at least be too busy to heal their elementalists who are in the process of getting owned by the warrior and ranger. This should be THE lame build to counter the "lame" ele biuld

ps. i wanna give a nod to the guy who suggested Quickening Zephyr. I know first hand how annoying that is, and how it would effect their entier build would be great.

With 4 mesmers, you don't need any monks anymore since you have lowered the damage output of their team that much, that you can do with selfheal only. Maybe use one monk to make it easier for the opponent to find a target. Leaves room for 3 damage dealers.

dirtycash
31-05-2005, 22:57
With 4 mesmers, you don't need any monks anymore since you have lowered the damage output of their team that much, that you can do with selfheal only. Maybe use one monk to make it easier for the opponent to find a target. Leaves room for 3 damage dealers.

I'm sorry but at the risk of sounding very rude, this is the dumbest idea ever. :idea:

Joe_Synner
31-05-2005, 23:29
i would have to agree with whoever it was that brought up Mantra of lightning... yeah the whole team would have to be mes/? or ?/ mes but i dont think thats very bad..

Aramon
31-05-2005, 23:54
Obsidian Flesh - ELITE (Enchantment Spell) For 8..18 seconds, you gain +20 Armor and cannot be the target of enemy spells, but move 50% slower (knights-templar.com)

DutchSmurf
01-06-2005, 00:19
I'm sorry but at the risk of sounding very rude, this is the dumbest idea ever. :idea:

I wasn't that serious ;)
But maybe it is worth a try.......

minetryk
02-06-2005, 05:10
I'm only saying this because the game is still new and we're all still figuring out infinite (OK not quite) team skill combinations. Even Magic: The Gathering goes through dominant phases. I'm only lvl 15 and have very little (45 min.) of PvP experience. I think a team with 2 or 3 R/Me's like me (when I get all my skills) would be effective.

I don't want to list all the skills of my eventual build, but the main combo is this...

dominate 12, whatever for rest (your choice of secondary and team combos)

cast arcane echo before your in range.

cast blackout (all R/Me's doing this at once or staggering is up to you)

opponent's skills are turned off for 6 seconds, yours for 5. With the one second difference, cast arcane echo/blackout.

when this runs out, it has been 12 seconds that the enemy has had no use of skills, with a 10 second recharge, you can cast blackout again.

In that 18 second span, even if everyone on the team is a R/Me, thats 1 pet per R/Me and a lot of arrows flying. Hopefully either 2 air elementalists or 2 monks or 1 or each will be out of the picture and it's

6 of you and 6 pets vs. 4 of them

or

8 of you and 8 pets vs. 6 of them.

load up on a few backfires and interrupts and maybe this will work.

BTW.

I'm a noob. And I came up with this pre-release as a way to isolate a monk by my self and keep him from healing a near dead target. The pet is just a bonus damage in a one on one me vs. the monk fight. Although I guess a one on one never really happens. 8 on 8 with 8 pets might be interesting though. Especially if they all target one enemy.

It's OK to Flame me. I give permission, i'm 27, I can take it.

UndeadBehlial
02-06-2005, 07:55
It's OK to Flame me.

No its not :p

Carcassone
02-06-2005, 20:47
1. First of all, what we are discussing here is why this game is so brilliantly designed.

What is the new trend of air elementalist doing to GUILD WARS PvP?

Using a very refined build like an air elementalist based made the PvP part of the game move, upwards, to a new stage of competitive gameplay.
What we are discussing in this thread, and on others that are poping up on the pvp foruns, are ways to rebalance this by taping this build, i. e. cutting it edge, by creating a new build that will not only counter that build but others that are supported by the same competitive factors (very fast and heavy damaging first wave of attacks, surprise effect, lightning damage-25% armor penetration). This will in turn make the game move again to a more higher, than the previous, stage of competitive gameplay contribuing to the creation of more refined builds.

This circular movement is the thing that feeds PvP in Guild Wars, because there isn't perfect builds, there is only temporarily perfect builds!!!

2. In terms of analysing the air elementalist we need to embrace a methodology that is rigorous and thorough in terms of depth and discussion:
- Try to know what are the skills that made the air elementalist team build
- after that you have to make a SWOT analysis off all the characters build that constitue the team build. The SWOT analysis is a tool off common use on strategic planning. It allows you to structure the analysis in terms of Strengths and Weaknesses (related to the build itself -internal- you only see, criticallly, the build and gamestyle play and not compare it with yours allies' build, enemys' build and any other trend, factor or characteristic on the PvP environment that are external) and Opportunities and Threats (related to overall environment of PvP - yours allies' build, enemys' build and other trend, factor or characteristic on the PvP environment).

The result of that will give you not a parcelar view of the air elementalist team build but a global insight on it.


Suggestions:
Make this exercise with your guild mates or other people that have a deep knowledge of the game mechanics, off the different maps and their requirements and objectives and that know very well each of the professions.

Carcassone
02-06-2005, 21:26
Lets make an experience using the SWOT analysis.

I urge someone to post a air elementalist team build because then it is more easy to make the analysis.
but lets start anyway.

Air elementalist character build

Strengths
- 25% armor penetration attacks (lightning damage)
- Large energy pool
- Very fast and highly damaging first wave of attacks


Weaknesses
- Exhaustion effects (because of the use off gale, shock, mind shock, lightning surge,etc.)
- Dependant on a single skills' tree (air magic)




Opportunities
- Surprise effect against enemy teams
- Low armor values presented by all professions except, in some extent, Warriors and Rangers






Threats



So Help build this with your suggestions - COMMUNITY STRATEGIC THINKING

Torm Shadowbane
03-06-2005, 05:05
Lack of Flexibility should be added under Weaknesses. They are a very focused Team Build with the single intent of dealing high damage quickly and lack a good deal of flexibility as a result.

Typical Team make up:
2-3 Monks
3-4 Air Elementalists
1-2 Warriors (Sometimes another class, but usually at least one warrior.)

Furqan
03-06-2005, 11:29
Never used SWOT, but I've heard of it and will give it a go:
I'll go the 3 Monk, 4 Ele, one Mes build.

Strengths:
Fast Spike Damage: to outdo heals
Range Damage: allows for quick target changes, and you don't know who is hit until they've lost a chunk of HP
Gale: great knockdown on Hero's in HoH

Weaknesses:
Heavy Air Build
Sustainability Issues: Energy Drain and Exhaustion
Not as effective at relic runs due to lack of sprint/hi-armor classes
Spell Damage
Relatively Few Hi Damage hits instead of multiple hits
besides the inefficient gale, No snares unless Mes packs one.

Opportunities
susceptible to anti-lightning/anti-elemental builds
outlast the initial barrage to drain energy
susceptible to Spell Breaker
susceptible to Protective Spirit
power block to shut down an ele

Threats
Shatter/Rend enchants leave you naked to the Air Barrage
Quick target changes can overcome cooldown on prot spirit/spell breaker
Core of the counter cannot center solely around the skills of your Protection Monk, because if he goes down, you're in bad shape.

KonohaFlash
03-06-2005, 11:55
i don't know if this has been posted if it is im sorry, ill be happy to delete my own post. but is it possible for someone to video capture an actual barrage of these air elementalists? all the while targeting only one of these casters from afar just so we can see the actual sequence in which they use their skills. seeing and analyzing an actual battle rather than imagining it in paper would be a big help in our endeavor... i think :D

EDIT: i haven't done this myself as i have not reached the tombs, im just planning ahead

Miss Schizo
03-06-2005, 19:10
You also have to keep in mind that they are very dependent on their enchantments (air attunement and elemental attunement) in order to keep some sustained dmg.

DataPhreak
04-06-2005, 01:11
I think that the fact that the Air Ele build was made specificly to take down a 3w/2ele/3monk standard build should be taken into account too. I think where people go wrong is building a team to specificly counter another build. If you've ever played magic the gathering, and i know many of you have, there are very rare surcumstance that you build a deck specificly to defeat an certain type of opponent. More often, you build a deck for a specific purpose. This lightning build is the Pyro deck or goblin deck or thrull deck (you see what kind of magic player i was... ^_^ Cheezy is still effective) to the proverbial white/green slow moving creature deck. before the other team has time to even get some damage going, they've already taken 3 lightnings and a couple fire balls, leaving them at 4hp.

What i think needs to happen, is instead of comming up with a way to beat the lighting team, is create more speciallized teams that will pwn against multitasking teams. Look at the realy effective decks from back in magics hayday.... How about the Interupt/land destruction decks? make a team with all mez as either pri or secondary with interupts, energy drain and DoT. How about an all healer group with smiting? All ranged with lots of AoE? Don't limit yourself to countering the big fad thats out, make the new one. Thats what the point of the game was all about, imo.

Jozvex Spellsharp
04-06-2005, 01:15
Would it help if the damage was Cold or Fire damage instead? Is there better defense against those elements? If there is, you could try using something like the Ranger skill:

Winter: Create a level 1-8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, all elemental damage is cold damage instead. This Spirit dies after 30-126 seconds.

The recharge is 60 seconds which is only half the duration, so you could probably keep it going for the whole battle. I think there's a skill to convert it to fire as well, at least for the individual.

Corrodias
04-06-2005, 01:18
that last post made an interesting point.. i wasn't expecting guild wars to end up a game like that, where a 'balanced' team has no chance against the rock-paper-scissors (RPS) teams, but it seems to be heading that way. right now we have normal, air ele, and anti air ele teams which would play in a sort of RPS way (air ele > normal > anti air ele > air ele). that is, unless anti air ele is also > normal, in which case there's no point to grabbing a couple of monks, a couple of mesmers, a couple of etc.

are we all going to have to get teams composed mainly of one profession and just pray we don't run into our rock's paper, so to speak?

i'd just like to say that in 4 seconds, two air elementalists can do over 530 damage to one target, using 25 energy each and suffering only 10 energy exhaustion each (using lightning surge and lightning orb). what other characters can do this much damage when only TWO of them attack one target? (this is assuming the target has 60 armor and no enchantments)

Hart
04-06-2005, 01:44
It looks to me like the SWOT analysis has identified that the major weakness of the Aeromancer is mana management. From posts earlier in the thread, it can be presumed that the typical counter for the high mana costs of the staple skills is Air Attunement in combination with Elemental Attunement. An advanced mana regen trick is Essence Bond on a Protection Monk who is Life Bonded to many targets.

Therefore, the first thing we need to do is remove enchantments. IMO Rend Enchantments, Lingering Curse and Well of the Profane are the best options because they remove all enchantments. This is important to counter the E/Mo Aeromancer build with Essence Bond. In this case you kill two birds with one stone, both limiting your attackers energy supply and providing a vulnerable target for your counterattack.

Once we have the enchantments removed we have substantially reduced the number of bolts that can be tossed. At this point the focus becomes reducing the mana pool of the opposing Aeromancers to zero as quickly as possible. I recommend a twofold strategy; first place a Quickening Zephyr near the center of the opposing party to increase their mana costs. Your warriors and rangers will feel only a minimal effect from QZ due to adrenal skills and expertise respectively, but elementalists can be crippled.

The reason this is effective is simple math. With both Elemental Attunement and Air Attunement each Lightning Orb costs around 5 power to cast {15 - (.5*15) - (.3*15)}. That's around 18 orbs assuming the Aeromancer has 90 power. When the Aeromancer has these enchantments removed each orb costs 15 power to cast, or about 6 orbs. Under Quickening Zephyr each orb costs 20 power, or about 4 orbs.

If this technique is combined with Mesmer, Ranger, or Necromancer skills to deprive the caster of power or interrupt casting the effect is much more noticable; rather than interrupting a spell that cost 5 power when everything was said and done, you interrupted a spell that cost 20 power. Countering a 25 point spell results in 33 points of wasted power under QZ. Remember, it takes an elementalist the same 4 seconds to regen 5 power that it takes all other casters; that means 16 seconds to charge up enough for one Lightning Orb, or ~10 seconds for a Lightning Strike from zero mana.

The trick here is to remove the opponents' enchantments early and keep them off. Your enchantment removal skills will recharge twice as fast as long as you keep QZ up; that means you can Rend enchants every 15 seconds. Bring along at least one Warrior to benefit from the QZ - their adrenal skills are unaffected and Skull Crack seriously impairs casters; in an Aeromancer group you're typically looking at between 6 and 8 casters who can be instantly halved in effectiveness by that skill alone. Defend your QZ spirit, interrupt and deny their casters, counter their enchantment heavy build with necromancers and rangers.

Since I'm writing a wall of text anyway, I imagine that the reason that Air spike builds became so powerful has to do with a general feeling that Necromancers and Rangers are less important than Warriors, Monks, and Elementalists when it comes to PvP. The most effective counters for the Aeromancer builds are carried by the least used classes for pick up groups. Each class has a place; less direct damage does not mean useless. As the general level of awareness and skill grows I expect that the best builds will be something like 2x healer, 1x debuffer, 1x interrupter, 1x controller, and either 2x nuker 1x melee or 1x nuker 2x melee with each individual focusing on his role within the team rather than how his individual character operates.

~Hart

Vitamins
04-06-2005, 05:59
If they have 3 enchantments on them why not start off with a necro desecrate enchantment and follow up with a mesmer doing doing echo + shatter enchantment? or would half that dmg be redirected to the monk and kinda stop the brunt of the dmg?

katyn
04-06-2005, 06:30
Why not just counter them with elementalists? Buy up aeromancer armor to protect against air attacks then start whacking them right back with fire attacks. Hopefully they'll just stand there and continue to try and use their air spells on you while you rain death on them. For a secondary class, go for something that can exploit the fact that once they use up all their spells they can't do much else.

hahnsoo
04-06-2005, 06:54
Here's an idea: What about Fertile Season? Normally, this Nature Ritual is HORRIBLE, as it gives everyone a lot of HP and armor. But the main reason that Lightning Damage kills is because of the Armor Penetration and the Spike damage. With a high level Fertile Season, everyone on the map gains more HP (guards against the Spike) and more Armor against attacks (including lightning, effectively negating the bonus armor penetration), and the game reverts back to a more traditional (read: Warrior hits, Monk heals) game. Obviously, you'll have to combine it with some Monk protection, but it's food for thought.

Merchunt
04-06-2005, 11:50
:worship: Ok, ive been readin this and i noticed this wonderful trend cause im a necro luver and they just hate me when i got 3 or 4 Bone Horrors goin at them so i know the effects of their hits. First off i noticed that they dont care about me until i make myself noticed by stealin around 100 health from corpses and them. so they have a weakness to necros cause no armor i know of can stop necro spells. if u hit them hard with a N/Me then they get kinda messes up, the mesmer part drains their energy and the necro part can keep u alive while dealin damage to them. with 3 of these and a monk then what ever u want u should be able to take down a team of air eles. if i dosnt work then u can yell at me in game :)

Herthbul
04-06-2005, 17:30
Nature's Renewal much? Ele energy restore enchants (aside from Ether Prodigy, and then giving them more exhaustion ain't that bad anyway) carry long recharge times, so if you can drop this like 4~5 seconds in, and then cast your enchants, you should be pretty well off since their energy stores will be diminished alot faster.

Taylor Polynomial
04-06-2005, 18:32
"An advanced mana regen trick is Essence Bond on a Protection Monk who is Life Bonded to many targets."

It turns out that this was a bug. The developers did not intend Life Bond to deal physical damage to the monk. It was changed in the last patch, so a lifebond running monk can no longer function as a mana battery for the rest of the team.

A bit of a shame really, it was one of my favorite strats, and not that hard to counter. Oh well.

Aboleth
05-06-2005, 11:22
Hart has the right idea

Copious Teraflops
05-06-2005, 11:38
Air eles have to chose between sustained damage and burst. Ether renewal in the right combo can keep you nuking pretty much non stop but most of these spike groups are using surge, which not only eliminates the only really viable way to gain energy in an air ele build, but also causes exhaustion. A good protection monk and mesmer could make them go from godly to utterly useless if they can survive for more than 15 seconds. Those spells are expensive and interrupts of any kind can really hurt an air elementalist.

Svenn
05-06-2005, 18:43
I imagine that the reason that Air spike builds became so powerful has to do with a general feeling that Necromancers and Rangers are less important than Warriors, Monks, and Elementalists when it comes to PvP. The most effective counters for the Aeromancer builds are carried by the least used classes for pick up groups. Each class has a place; less direct damage does not mean useless. As the general level of awareness and skill grows I expect that the best builds will be something like 2x healer, 1x debuffer, 1x interrupter, 1x controller, and either 2x nuker 1x melee or 1x nuker 2x melee with each individual focusing on his role within the team rather than how his individual character operates.I completely agree. This observation is astute enough to print and tape to the monitor. :worship:

Emalf
06-06-2005, 22:15
Air elementalists aren't even that overpowered. Lightning orb takes charge time you know? I haven't been to the HoH so I don't know the caliber of the air elementalists there, but as an experienced Air ELE in PVP team arena I can safely say that with 2 air ele's we're still easily defeated

Mantra of Lightning reduces alot of damage
if mesmer's interrupt or blackout or energy drain it's easily over

something else i noticed, the enemy dodges lightning orb by strafing left and right. recharge time after is hella annoying

i get owned easily by DoT's such as sever artery, and gettnig dazed is painful

funny story, once i got taken out within 3 seconds of combat. i don't know what the hell happened, because I was at full 480 health, but a warrior ran up and a lot of lights bursted (i think ranger hit me too) then i was owned in 1 second.
------------------------------------------
off topic, but is the spell Gale broken? targets arne't knocked down for 3 seconds, only 1.

Nadril
06-06-2005, 23:38
Spell breaker will stop elementalist's in their tracks.

i do agree, the air elementalist trend is somewhat anoying. I started playing an air ele a few weeks ago *before* the big trend, but now all you see if "LOOKING FOR AIR ELE!" like you used to see looking for warrior when the warrior/monk trend was big.

it will dye over. Just use spell breaker :) and you'll be safe. And my team, an air ele team, fought a very good team of anti caster koreans in a GvG...

...They slaughtered us. used spell breaker, backfire, ALL that good stuff.

the reason they are so good is because not many people have came up with an effective combat against them.

For example, when people started to find out how ubar ward vs melee was, melee heavy teams were getting owned my a bunch of mages + ward against melee :) Its all how you look at it.

Pyro Gl
07-06-2005, 00:22
A team of elementalists and monks is lacking in anti cast a team of 4+ monks should be able to do well. Grab a couple mesmers and once their out of energy let the pounding begin. a spirit of fertile season might be perfect, lasting just long enough for them to all run out of energy.

EDIT: their weakness is they are very sort term, any team with a lot of monks can survive long enough to gain an advantage.

Lestat Requiem
07-06-2005, 04:04
All mass air ele teams i fought were very close together and wasnt moving at all (too busy to blast sbsy -_-) then the counter would be a team 3 monk and mass of earth elementalist with obsidian flesh (18 sec immune to spells and +20 Ca reaload 30sec cost 15 energy) and then on in the fcking air ele block and chain Earthquake => aftershock => crystal wave...

Result Air ele shredding in about 5 sec

Carcassone
07-06-2005, 20:02
Air elementalist character build (UPDATED)

Strengths
- 25% armor penetration attacks (lightning damage)
- Large energy pool
- Very fast and highly damaging first wave of attacks


Weaknesses
- Exhaustion effects (because of the use off gale, shock, mind shock, lightning surge,etc.)
- Very dependant on a single skills' tree (air magic)
- Lack of Flexibility
- Very dependant on enchantments that provide energy savings and sustains the chain of damage
- Not as effective at relic runs maps due to lack of sprint/hi-armor classes
- Very dependant on the energy regeneration given by their first profession (Elementalist- 4 energy regen/per second i think).

Opportunities
- Surprise effect against enemy teams
- Low armor values presented by all professions except, in some extent, Warriors and Rangers


Threats
High vulnerability to enchantment destruction skills
High vulnerability to energy drain skills
High vulnerability to spell breaking skills



Most people post in Threats as severall skills that counter the air elementalist build.
We do not use skills in SWOT analysis because that is the next step when you finish SWOT analysis- determine what are the best skills (and in consequence the best build) to counter air elementalist build


However we could say that a threat could be their vulnerability to Energy drain skills, spell breaking skills that, although related with a skill, refers to a specified set of skills that are listed with that capacity.


So if all of you think that this is complete we can start to post builds!!!!


______________________________________
STRATEGIC COMMUNITY THINKING - SCT.GW
Giving edges to the community

Carcassone
07-06-2005, 21:11
Here it goes my first build:

The Edge - Guild Wars Utility
http://renobrothers.waynereno.com/

Class: Elementalist / Necromancer

Attributes: (cost) '+' indicates Rune attributes
Energy Storage: 10+1 (61)
Water Magic: 5+1 (15)
Blood Magic: 10 (61)
Curses: 10 (61)

Total attribute points used: 198/200

Skills: [Attribute] (Energy, Cast Time, Recharge TIme)
1) Armor of Mist [Water Magic] (10,2,30) Enchantment: For 13 seconds, you gain +22 armor and move 33% faster.[Captain Greywind: Ascalon Settlement (EA)]

2) Awaken the Blood [Blood Magic] (10,1,45) Enchantment: For 36 seconds, you gain +2 Blood Magic and +2 Curses, but whenever you sacrifice health, you sacrifice 50% more than the normal amount.[Mazzim: Fisherman's Haven (OP)]

3) Strip Enchantment [Blood Magic] (10,1,20) Spell: Target foe loses one enchantment, and you gain 90 health.[First Watch Sergio: Lion's Arch (T)]

4) Rend Enchantments [Curses] (10,3,30) Spell: Target foe loses 7 enchantments. For each Monk enchantment removed, you take 40 damage.[Tengsao: The Amnoon Oasis (T)]

5) Malaise [Curses] (5,2,2) Hex: For 25 seconds, target foe suffers energy degeneration of 2 and you suffer health degeneration of 2. Malaise ends if target foe's energy reaches 0.[Bartoch: Droknar's Forge (T)]

6) Spiteful Spirit [Curses] (15,2,10) Hex: For 16 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or uses a skill, Spiteful Spirit deals 25 shadow damage to that foe and all adjacent foes. This is an elite skill[]

7) Life Siphon [Blood Magic] (10,2,2) Hex: For 20 seconds, target suffers health degeneration of 3, and you gain health regeneration of 3.[Sir Bertran: Ascalon City (T)]

8) Vampiric Gaze [Blood Magic] (10,1,5) Spell: Steal 46 health from target foe.[Sir Bertran: Ascalon City (T)]

Armor of the mist gives me a temporarily buff to armor
Awaken the blood buffs my main attributes
Vampiric gaze is my standard heal
Malaise is used with life siphon (i put life shiphon first or second? they oth have advantages and disadvantages))
Strip and rend enchantment are used in air elementalists
an spitful spirit too.


___________________________________
COMMUNITY STRATEGIC THINKING - CST.GW
Giving edges to us all

minetryk
09-06-2005, 05:04
Have a great offense and a great Defense.

I haven't PvPed much, but I bet the trend is that most teams are 90% offense and 10% defense (or less defense.)

The air elementalist team build might be the pinnacle of this.

Just dedicate more skills to defense. Teams should anyway.

Don't just build your ultimate combo, have a counter(s) for your opponents.

NFL example... Forget the bend but don't beak defense...Blitz! like the Eagles! interfere with their planning.

another example... you and your team are represented as a single runner in a race against a single opponent (represents the other team). Who ever gets to the tree first, wins. Do you just rely on your own skills of strength, endurance, and form, to give you the ultimate combo of speed? NO, you trip the other guy, so he falls on his face, allowing you to pull away and earn the victory. Why not? NO RULES.

what if...

one team had every player as either a monk or mesmer secondary? (maybe 1 primary for each of the two). Everyone just relies on combos between the primary professions for offense, and the secondary professions for defense. You have to rely on each other more for offensive combos, since maybe you don't have enough slots or energy to do it on your own (and have energy left for an interrupt or heal).

I think the lack of an anti-air elementalist build is more a problem of overall planning and strategy, not specific skills.

Vtron The Great
09-06-2005, 22:16
Ok I'm new to GW and have little PVP experience. Im a E/Me18. I have Aeromancers Armor that = 60% Defence against Lightning. I also have Montra of lightning that has 26%-45% against lightning. That could give you at the mim 86% and at max 105% defence against lighting. or more if you runed out your /Me side. It seems to me that an Geomancer with the above lighting defence could be very effective against a Aeromancer. On top of that using Obsidian Flesh would make you invicable against them for a sort period of time.

Obsidian Flesh
"For 8-18 seconds, you gain +20 armor and cannot be the target of enemy spells, but move 50% slower. This is an elite skill."

I could be wrong b/c I have not had a chance to test this against an Aeromancer's attack. What do you guys think. viable?

jut my 2 cents from a newbie.

Vtron The Great
09-06-2005, 22:34
One more thing I forgot to add Ward Against Elements

Ward Against Elements

For 8-18 seconds, nearby allies gain +24 armor against elemental damage.

You can pretty much keep this one going all the time. I don't know if +24 is enough to make a dent.

I guess that make 3 cents now.

XeroTheta
09-06-2005, 23:07
I think Nature's Renewal and Quickening Zephyr would make a good combo.

You could try fertile season. Another 475 hitpoints would absorb alot of ele damage and you can cast it outside the ele's range so your team only gets the benefit.

Endure Pain on top of that too would be a lot more HP for a warrior :)

Vylae
09-06-2005, 23:25
Has anyone missed a killer combo?

R/Ele wearing cold armor protection

Ward Vs Elements
Winter
Even drop a Great Conflagartion if you want...

125 protection vs cold... with no ward... ward will add +24 more.... 150 vs elemental ... and if you drop that greater conflag... that is 150 vs all damage to you.

Any Elementalist is screwed...

Anti Air Build

Distracting Shot- stop the longer casting
Chocking Gas - Great prep for taking out casters
Debilitating Shot - for that time in between the prep and distacting
Ward Vs Elements - helps everyone
Winter - all damage becomes cold
Dryder's Defense - 75% dodge and 34- 60 ele armor
Grasping Earth or Res Sig.. depending on need - Earth does 50% to all foes.. with +24 pyshical armor to them...oh well to bad with greater conflag there is no physical
Greater Conflagaration - no physical all elemental

Att:

Expertise 8 (10 rune plus helm)
Marksman 10 (11 rune)
Winderness 10 (11 rune)
Earth 8 ( all you need is an 8 for good time on your 2 earth spells)


runes can be increased in size but with those and a Sup Vigor... you can mow down any elementalist out there

Fire Childe
11-06-2005, 03:13
my guild has run builds like the OP in which we have 3 monks, life bond and essense bond, and staggered healing seed. if everyone keeps close together the health regen is insane. we used protective bond which in conjunction with essense bond allowed us to keep our main monk alive in order to seed and maintain essense bond. the combo means he takes no more than 5% dmg per hit and whatever loss of energy from protective bond is counteracted by the energy gain from essense bond. you need about 3 monks for this to work.

in tombs yesterday, we were doing pretty good and came up against a pick up group consisting of some very good tombs players.

they had 4 air eles, 1 primary mes, 2 monk primaries and 1 warrior primary.

now. the OP will know that with the life/essense/protective bond build, theres 1 monk which is basically the lynch pin of the whole thing - whoever is maintaining life bond and seeding. normally this target has protective bond on him to stop him getting nuked. theres normally more than 1 person seeding in our build - we found that the rate of damage we sustained from 4 eles far outweighed the health we were getting back from 1 heal seed. once your lynch pin goes down the rest of the build kind of collapses.

well in that game, 4 air eles targetted our lynch pin straight off. which was a bit lucky. the mes stripped protective bond AND seed with 2 single enchant strips. which was freaking lucky considering the number of enchants we were running. about 4 or 5 each. i was running illusion of weakness, illusionary weaponry in addition to the bond enchants.

also note - we were running symbiosis and we all had about 1,400hp and insane health regen. baby wax (our lynch pin monk) dropped in about 3 seconds flat) to focus fire after both strips (which dropped his hp enough that he died pretty much straight away - this was still over 600 hp mind you). it was also freaking lucky how they targetted the one monk we needed alive. our build crumbled and they finished us off.

in hindsight we should have had one of our monks use spell breaker for his elite and his slapped that on baby as soon as we saw the enemy team get into position. as long as life bond and heal seed are being maintained alot of the damage is spread across our whole team and that triggers seed which heals us. as long as we survive the initial assault the exhaustion will slow the rate of damage on the eles and there wasnt really much left of their build after that. the lynch pin of their build was to kill the healing/protection source of the opposing team then clear up quickly before the exhaustion starts to set in really bad. if half their team is exhausted their damage output would have been totally crippled.

its amazing the difference 1 skill could make in that situation. unfortunately, we didnt think of it and just got unlucky at the time. kudos to the other team for staying 1 step ahead. we didnt see that team go on to win HoH in the next few hours so we can only assume some other team wiped them.

Hintshigen Elgin
11-06-2005, 05:28
didn't mean this to be a whining thread, but was meant for two purposes:

1) Am I the only one who notices this new trend?
2) What effective counters have you found?

--> The most effective counter I've seen is just runnin spell breaker, mark of protection, or protective spirit. Really important to stack another enchantment on top of these enchants, so they aren't shattered/drained...


Not gonna bother with the rest of the pages. Most effective counter I've found, and it's usefull against other builds, is run with two water/earth ele's and keep the air ele's on their back.

Ran this last night and did very well with it. Communication is key though to time the two ele's spells right.

WNxNightmarexD
11-06-2005, 23:04
Ok God I Had To Make A Acount Just To Tell You The Easiest Way To Counter This People Get A Earth Ele Then Go Up To The Earthquake And Then After Shock

spne
11-06-2005, 23:14
Ok God I Had To Make A Acount Just To Tell You The Easiest Way To Counter This People Get A Earth Ele Then Go Up To The Earthquake And Then After Shock

Currently i'm Air/Earth/Energy and Whirlwind + Aftershock works well. But not even close to the damage of Air Spells on single target.

How to counter a Air Ele ?
Mesmers and good monks. Protective Spirit for teh win.

Fire Childe
11-06-2005, 23:51
nah you see, a good team of air eles would have a mes/necro strip protective spirit on your priority target before coming down on it like a tonne of bricks.

dirtycash
12-06-2005, 00:09
Has anyone missed a killer combo?

R/Ele wearing cold armor protection

Ward Vs Elements
Winter
Even drop a Great Conflagartion if you want...

125 protection vs cold... with no ward... ward will add +24 more.... 150 vs elemental ... and if you drop that greater conflag... that is 150 vs all damage to you.

Any Elementalist is screwed...

Anti Air Build

Distracting Shot- stop the longer casting
Chocking Gas - Great prep for taking out casters
Debilitating Shot - for that time in between the prep and distacting
Ward Vs Elements - helps everyone
Winter - all damage becomes cold
Dryder's Defense - 75% dodge and 34- 60 ele armor
Grasping Earth or Res Sig.. depending on need - Earth does 50% to all foes.. with +24 pyshical armor to them...oh well to bad with greater conflag there is no physical
Greater Conflagaration - no physical all elemental

Att:

Expertise 8 (10 rune plus helm)
Marksman 10 (11 rune)
Winderness 10 (11 rune)
Earth 8 ( all you need is an 8 for good time on your 2 earth spells)


runes can be increased in size but with those and a Sup Vigor... you can mow down any elementalist out there

Um, so let me get this strait, according to you:

1. Rangers get targeted first? This is why you have your heavy ele resist.
2. You want a team of all Ranger/Ele?

You're whole team won't have massive armor versus ele, so you have one Arnold Schwartzenagger taking out the whole other team? :lol:

Tohoya
13-06-2005, 23:31
Air ele teams are easy to counter. Get Prot spirit up on whoever is getting surged (most air ele teams are low on hexes, some run no hexes at all, so if you see someone with a hex icon chances are its a surge), and spam RoF on them. Spell Breaker can waste a bunch of those air ele mana too.

I'd reccomend coordinating a 2-prot build; they're much more effective thasn the 2 healing build for countering air eles. I don't know what you're talking about that prot spirit has a long recharge... its recharge is like 4. Much longer than the air eles attacks. And it lasts so long that with the +enchantment gear and prot runes I have, I can keep it up on all monks at the same time (everyone targets monks first), mana permitting. And seeing as I run inspiration magic, mana usually permits =)

lred
15-06-2005, 14:07
Oh, and I forgot to mention Divine Intervention.. seems like it could be used here, though I'm not sure how.
Can be cast only once every 30 seconds, and has to be cast within ten seconds before target ally takes a fatal hit. Then it gets the targets health op to some 40~50%.

Parker Bsb
15-06-2005, 15:52
Ok fowarning I did not read the entire thread...

I just feel a little annoyed that areomancers are getting so popular, I played one in the past BWE and LOVED it (there weren't that many that I noticed running around either). I've always played high damage caster types so areomancersjust fit with how I like to play the game.

I don't want to feel like I'm a sheep just following the trend :mad:

Anyways would you be complaining about having 1 aeromancer on a balanced team? Or are you just saying 3 or 4 areomancers is bad

Vault Dweller
15-06-2005, 16:22
This entire problem would be solved by having 2 HoH tournaments.

One which is open to PVP players and RP players alike, and a second that is only available to RP players. I guarentee you I would never go near the PVP arena.

Vault

Hart
16-06-2005, 01:53
This entire problem would be solved by having 2 HoH tournaments.

One which is open to PVP players and RP players alike, and a second that is only available to RP players. I guarentee you I would never go near the PVP arena.

Vault

...which is exactly why there's only one HoH. Any differance between PvP only characters and PvE characters in the PvP portion of the game would make PvP characters worthless.

ratatass
23-06-2005, 04:33
A counter for Air spikes ?

Not easy.
It takes no skill after you see the Call Target ---t to blah blah for the air spikers to throw out insane damage. And this in just a few seconds.

Unless you are extremely well prepared a counter is hard to find, since you have only a few seconds to counter the spikes.

The best way to counter it is to just bring monk secondaries. thats the easiest way to go. Throw up your own protective spirit and your own Guardian for example and pray your healers can keep up. Don't count on your protection monk to be able to take care of the first two seconds. Divine Intervention is a sucky skill, with its 30 secs recharge, but then again if you can take it on a few monks good, but its a waste really.


No point in attacking their Elementalist untill the first two spikes are over, unless you run a 3 warrior build, where you can send two warriors on one spikers each (2 out of 4) is ok! and one for one of their monks (to keep pressure on the enemy) untill their twenty seconds of fame are over. Then focus on your targets.

If you survive the first 20 seconds, make sure you have inflicted some DOT with a rangers posion or a mesmers conjure phantasm on multiple targets in the meantime.

Now go in for their monks full force, while your mesmer is playing with the elementalists after the mandatory scourge healing and Bakcfire on the monk. Power block the elementalist quick.

Also have the necro run a Rend Enchantments on the target. Then have the Necro focus on as much havoc as possible on multiple targets...I like the necro to be a R/N, so he can run some debilitating shots as well.

Keep the monks occupied and DOT the elementalists. I would use the Necro on my focused targets and the mesmer on the 3-4 elementalists. Your mesmer needs to be really really good.

Again, survive the first 20 seconds and you will own.


This wasn't the best of advice. Put pretend you are fresh out of Draknors forge with no infused armor. Go straight for the 3 Ele suckers out the gate and practice on those. If none of your team dies, you have a fair chance against the initial air spikes in PvP.

rodigee
24-06-2005, 02:14
Be a Mesmer and run manta of lightning in conjunction with the normal anti-caster skillset... That'll help you a bit.

BreeZeyTreefrog
24-06-2005, 05:27
Fertile season can help you withstand the first few barrages of lightning, let the elementalists drain their mana, and then let the spirit go down and counter attack. I play as an air elementalist and another major problem we get (besides teammates that can't count and shoot at the same time -_-) is interruption. Rangers and mesmers can do this best. Lightning orb, chain lightning and lightning surge all have a 3 second cast, so they are easy to interrupt. If you can interrupt 1 of 3 or 2 of 4 elementalists nuking you can easily survive the first attack, and then you need some quick healing on their target. Most people (that I have played with) put mesmers and rangers on the monks to slow down their healing, but if you realise you will be on the defensive it's a good idea to interrupt the eles to let them exhaust before you counter.