Superior Runes worth it for a monk?

[Thy Guardian]

I have a Superior Healing Prayers rune and I was wondering if it would be worth using? I am a primary healer, and I could get up to 16 Healing Prayers if I use the rune. I was wondering if having the attribute that high is even worth it? Remember that the rune gives -75 health.

[He Hate Me]

i think it is. if your a primary healing monk, you want to heal for as much as you can. thats your job, your only job. which means divine and healing high as possible, you get yourself a superiour vigor it helps, plus you really shoudlnt be getting hit much anyway in pve, in pvp 25 hp's is not going to matter all that much(assuming you would at least go major healing) when your healing for more, it makes up for it too.

[Mcdeath]

Hmmm.

My monk has one and it's very useful, but he's nowhere near 16 skill in Prayer.

Look at it this way. If you don't want 16 in Prayer, then you can use the rune and then shift the excess points into Divine Favor.

[Cantos]

I'm scared of -75 health. I stick with Minors.

[Mcdeath]

Hmmm.

The -75 health really isn't that big a deal. Particularly if you've got friends who can acquire some higher level collector's items. Consider this:

1. Superior Rune of Vigor = +50 health
2. Major Rune of Vigor = +40 health
3. Minor Rune of Vigor = +30 health
4. Hale staff head = +10 - +30 health
5. Staff wrapping of Fortitude = +20 - +30 health
6. Focii with + health = +20 - +30 health

While you can only have 1 rune of Vigor on you at any time, you can have combinations of other items. And these items can make up for the loss in health. Even then I didn't find the reduced health all that much of a disadvantage. As long as you're using your skills properly, there really shouldn't be a problem.

[DurinDalinson]

-75 health is easy to counter. Just put a superior rune of vigour on one of your pieces of armour (for +50 health), and bring along a staff or wand/offhand combo that gives you extra health (i think the max is +30 heath that you can get that way)

The problem is getting hold of a superior vigour rune though - their quite rare.

Edit: Damn, beat to the punch by McDeath :P

[Mcdeath]

Edit: Damn, beat to the punch by McDeath :P

Sorry. I'm a schmuck that way. :)

[Ahastar Darktalon]

I have superior runes of protection/healing/divine favor. Or in short, -225 HP. My max HP is currently 285 at level 20. I can do that because with Protective Spirit online it really doesn't matter much. No matter what ultra-attack or mega-spell hits me, I won't lose more than 28 HP. Combine that with a 9 arrow healing breeze and you are pretty much set.

[Mcdeath]

Hmmm.

Yeah I love Healing Breeze. Mine only goes up to 7 arrows though. But I'm still happy with that :)

[Cantos]

It's not that you can "counter" the health loss. You will always get 75 less health than you would if you use a minor. The toss up is two levels of healing prayers or 75 life. I choose more life.

[Thy Guardian]

Exactly a point I wanted to bring up. Everyone says that you can use a Superior Vigor to counter it, but you're still down -25 health, and that is a difference of +75 health that you're missing out on if you used a superior vigor and nothing else.

[Torm Shadowbane]

I only see runes as useful in two ways. First, to raise your skill over 12 and second to allow you to get a skill of AT LEAST Twelve while spending points some where else. Being a Healing Monk means that most of my skills are going to come from Healing Prayers so naturally that already gets boosted to twelve.

So unless you are boosting your healing prayers up to at least twelve by using a Superior Healing Rune, you are going to want to go over Twelve with one. So let's look at the benefits of going over twelve. (All information comes from the Guild Wars Character Builder, created by GWFreaks.com which can be downloaded from this website.)

Healing Breeze - At 12 you get 8 Bars of Health Regen, at 16 (max) you get 10.

Orision of Healing - At 12 you get 60 Healing, at 16 you get 73.

Heal Other/Heal Area - At 12 you get 151 Healing, at 16 you get 190.

Healing Seed - At 12 18 Seconds, 25 Health, at 16 21 seconds, 32 health.

Restore Life - At 12 resed at 45% health and 80% energy, at 16 51% Health and 93% energy.

Mending - At 12 you get +3 Health Regen, at 16 you get +4.

Heal Party - At 12 you get 67 Party Heal, at 16 you get 84.

So take that information and decide if it is useful to you are not. Is a -75 Health difference worth +13 healing for Orision of Healing? Two more Regen Bars on Breeze worth -75 Health? IMO, it isn't. I'm happy with taking a Minor Rune and +1 Healing Prayers on my Head Slot, which will boost me up to 14 Healing Prayers.

[hireath]

to the topic, i would say NO.

it is not a great loss in hp, but it is not a great increase in skill effect either.

unless you make a specialist build.

to the guy who uses 3 superior runes, your crazy. anyone with strip enchantment will strip you and you are standing there with your pants down. unless you plan on maintaining at least 3 'cover' enchantments.

also, with death penalty and for whatever reason your protective spirit is interrupted or taken out. you will have about 100 max hp LOL. do you really need the 'superior' attributes that much?

[Ahastar Darktalon]

to the topic, i would say NO.

it is not a great loss in hp, but it is not a great increase in skill effect either.

unless you make a specialist build.

to the guy who uses 3 superior runes, your crazy. anyone with strip enchantment will strip you and you are standing there with your pants down. unless you plan on maintaining at least 3 'cover' enchantments.

also, with death penalty and for whatever reason your protective spirit is interrupted or taken out. you will have about 100 max hp LOL. do you really need the 'superior' attributes that much?

Hmm...all I have to say is that the key to near invulnerability in this game are as low as possible HP. :cool:

Know the blessed griffons north of Camp Rankor? I gear myself in a way so that I only have 15 (!) HP maximum left. At that point with the right combination of skills I train about ten griffons, all beating into me, without any sort of effect. 15 seconds later and with smiting prayers 15 all those ten griffons are laying down and flat with a ton of nice gear and money to be picked up. Not to mention 1680 XP.

Why is that so? Because Protective Spirit is a procentual based HP protection spell while Healing Breeze / Mending and the like are absolute amount recovery spells per second. Mathematically this means that eventually your percental loss per enemy strike will be that vastly small compared to your absolute gain per second that you reach a point of invulnerability.

Sure, you could come and get one (!) of my four layers of protection force fields down with enchantment busters. But first of all hardly anyone carries these and second of all you need to wait 20 seconds until my Spell Breaker Elite has run out so you can actually cast it on me.

Frankly, you have no 20 seconds. Ask the ten griffons.

[Mcdeath]

Hmmm.

That is extremely evil and highly offensive!

Let me bookmark this page for future reference. :)

Hehe. Interesting technique. Something to definitely think about.

[Cygnus Arnimane]

I have superior runes of protection/healing/divine favor. Or in short, -225 HP. My max HP is currently 285 at level 20. I can do that because with Protective Spirit online it really doesn't matter much. No matter what ultra-attack or mega-spell hits me, I won't lose more than 28 HP. Combine that with a 9 arrow healing breeze and you are pretty much
set.


I believe Protective Spirit is an Enchantment, thus can be removed by your foes. Just as Healing Breeze can be...

[Ahastar Darktalon]

And be recasted by me in a heartbeat. 0 second casting time for protective spirit. Contrary to the enchantmet busters.
That is, if you manage to get it in before my Spell Breaker nullifies your casting in the first place, of course.

[Seeker of Something]

I think superior runes are fine in PvE since the mobs aren't a significant threat (although the only one I actually use is in the +4 smiting headgear I keep for farming). My PvP monk only uses superior vigor since I haven't seen any major advantage to the other superiors (for the monk that is, I do use them for other professions).

[Thy Guardian]

I actually went ahead and put the Superior Rune in my head tattoo armor, so it now gives +4 to Healing Prayers. I think it's pretty decent for PvE because I still have over 400 health and I don't even have any +health items yet.

[hireath]

10% of 100
get hit 10 times for 10 damage (10 max) and die.

10% of 530
get hit 10 times for max 53 damage (53 max) and die.


just because the numbers are smaller, doesnt mean it is any more effective. you might be easier to heal. but if someone casts DoT spell on you, you will die twice as fast as anyone else.

certainly not worth the risk for a couple of extra seconds on enchantments and about 6 extra hp healed per spell.

[Ahastar Darktalon]

That would be true if healing up would be procentual as well. It is not. It is absolute.

Damage over time is a problem. But then again...healing prayers 16 hands you a powerful regen, not to mention that the HP boost from DF is absolute as well.

[Cantos]

Hmm...all I have to say is that the key to near invulnerability in this game are as low as possible HP. :cool:

Know the blessed griffons north of Camp Rankor? I gear myself in a way so that I only have 15 (!) HP maximum left. At that point with the right combination of skills I train about ten griffons, all beating into me, without any sort of effect. 15 seconds later and with smiting prayers 15 all those ten griffons are laying down and flat with a ton of nice gear and money to be picked up. Not to mention 1680 XP.

Why is that so? Because Protective Spirit is a procentual based HP protection spell while Healing Breeze / Mending and the like are absolute amount recovery spells per second. Mathematically this means that eventually your percental loss per enemy strike will be that vastly small compared to your absolute gain per second that you reach a point of invulnerability.

Sure, you could come and get one (!) of my four layers of protection force fields down with enchantment busters. But first of all hardly anyone carries these and second of all you need to wait 20 seconds until my Spell Breaker Elite has run out so you can actually cast it on me.

Frankly, you have no 20 seconds. Ask the ten griffons.

Hey I hope you never meet a Well of the Profane. :lol:

[Ahastar Darktalon]

Well of the profane indeed is the biggest bane to my style, that is true!
In that case though, backtrack, recast, maybe a 225 HP heal area in between to fill me up to 100%. :cool:

Then again I have seen Well of the Profane like...twice so far?

[Cygnus Arnimane]

And be recasted by me in a heartbeat. 0 second casting time for protective spirit. Contrary to the enchantmet busters.
That is, if you manage to get it in before my Spell Breaker nullifies your casting in the first place, of course.

Well of the Profane

Exploit nearest corpse to create a well of the profane at its location. For 8-18 seconds, foes in that area are stripped of all enchantments and cannot be the target of further enchantments. (50% failure chance with Death Magic 4 or less.)


Spell Breaker

For 5-15 seconds, enemy spells targeted against target ally fail. This is an elite skill.

Recharge Time: 45 Seconds.

Nothing is bullet proof and Spell Breaker will not cover you half of the 45 second recharge. Mesmers can also completely disable your Elite skill.

Protective Spirit
10 energy and a 5 second recast if I am not mistaken, makes it rather costly to keep putting up if it keeps getting dropped.

I personally try not to rely too strongly on Enchantment spells since Mesmers and Necromancers are very good at removing them and likely hurting you in the process. In player competition or fighting againt monsters..you will cross many Mesmers and Necromancers. Enchantments are situational in how effective they are and should be used appropriately.

[Ahastar Darktalon]

Well, of course it is not foolproof. Nothing in this game is. And that is good so.
I mean, look at this thread alone. Three pages filled with entirely different opinions and playstyles, setups and preferences, HP numbers and skill heights.

I personally am damn happy to finally see an MMORPG where not everyone is the same skill-useing-plate-wielding-generic-cleric-with-a-club!

I'm only giving my point of view from my (given) edge style.
I'm not saying it is the final answer to all monkness. :)

[Cantos]

Well of the profane indeed is the biggest bane to my style, that is true!
In that case though, backtrack, recast, maybe a 225 HP heal area in between to fill me up to 100%. :cool:

Then again I have seen Well of the Profane like...twice so far?

You have 15 health (?), you are not going to have time to backtrack or do anything. You would just be dead. Nor is the potency of your Heal Area going to make any difference. You could heal yourself to full twice over with just the Divine Favor bonus from a non healing spell. Is this a character you actually have or is it something you dreamed up and speculate would be good?

Dont skills like Shatter Enchantment, Vampiric Touch/Gaze, Backfire and others ignore Protective Spirit? All of those would be instant kills too.

[Cygnus Arnimane]

Well, of course it is not foolproof. Nothing in this game is. And that is good so.
I mean, look at this thread alone. Three pages filled with entirely different opinions and playstyles, setups and preferences, HP numbers and skill heights.

I personally am damn happy to finally see an MMORPG where not everyone is the same skill-useing-plate-wielding-generic-cleric-with-a-club!

I'm only giving my point of view from my (given) edge style.
I'm not saying it is the final answer to all monkness. :)


I agree. Plus the game lets you change your style if you wish as well, also a beautiful thing. I just have a hard enough time monitoring the battle and my allies to also monitor if all my Enchantments are up as well.

I really wish the charatcers that have Monk as a second class actually used some spells. Honestly..Regenerative Heals and Protection spells are really best left to a secondary Monk..since they are cast once and run for a duration. Divine Favor makes Monks best used as instant healers and....smiters. Zealot's Fire if it.. can be run, Shatter Hex..both are very useful while you heal the party. Or heaven forbid I could develop and use some of my Mesmer skills as well. Sadly, when people see a Monk they typically think we have to cover all the defensive and healing needs for the entire party and have a skill bar of 8 offensive options...

[calderstrake]

I really wish the charatcers that have Monk as a second class actually used some spells. Honestly..Regenerative Heals and Protection spells are really best left to a secondary Monk..since they are cast once and run for a duration. Divine Favor makes Monks best used as instant healers and....smiters. Zealot's Fire if it.. can be run, Shatter Hex..both are very useful while you heal the party. Or heaven forbid I could develop and use some of my Mesmer skills as well. Sadly, when people see a Monk they typically think we have to cover all the defensive and healing needs for the entire party and have a skill bar of 8 offensive options...
This is starting to get OT, but you bring up an excellent GvG strategy. There are different kinds of healing skills and certainly not all are best suited to one class.

About the Superior rune, I think it depends on what you are using. If you are a smiting monk and you want to complement with extra healing, I don't think a Sup Heal rune is the way to go, however if you are pure heal, it might have a benefit. Personally, I think a Sup Div Fav would be a better choice for boosting healing, but I haven't researched the numbers to check.

[Bravo]

Protective spirit negates excessive damage from backfire. That is the first spell I cast when under backfire (assuming I have sufficient hp, usually true given that it is usually the start of battle) then push come to shove I can out heal the backfire, if my remove hex fails to remove it (interupted or covered) as the second casting. This has been play tested. It also blocks excessive damage from things like vile touch so I am inclined to believe that it will reduce the damage of all types.

Except dots...

[Cantos]

Hmm, good to know.

[lred]

I'd say major runes are worth it for monk, though i'd hesitate to use 3 of those at the same time (i use 2 myself).
More health would increase survivability, but unless you're a smiting offensive monk, you should try and stay out of aggro anyway - that's where a monk's survivability is. And if you are being aggro'd, your team should help you get rid of it asap. When aggro'd, you may be able to survive for long by using a lot of energy to keep yourself alive. Then to higher health doesn't make much of a difference; you either can sustain your health or you can't - if you can't then higher health would buy you only a few seconds, at the expense of higher monk attributes.
So in my view health isn't that much of an issue for a healing and/or protection monk, unless maybe you want to use life saccrifice skills, of which there aren't many for monk. Higher monk attributes however are worth it for most monks.

[lred]

Why is that so? Because Protective Spirit is a procentual based HP protection spell while Healing Breeze / Mending and the like are absolute amount recovery spells per second. Mathematically this means that eventually your percental loss per enemy strike will be that vastly small compared to your absolute gain per second that you reach a point of invulnerability.

I tested this: both protective spirit and protective bond reduce damage to a percentage *of your maximum health*.
I have 400 and a bit health, and white mantles were hitting me for up to 40 with protective spirit on, even when i was low on health. With Protective bond they hit me for up to 20.

[Ahastar Darktalon]

I tested this: both protective spirit and protective bond reduce damage to a percentage *of your maximum health*.
I have 400 and a bit health, and white mantles were hitting me for up to 40 with protective spirit on, even when i was low on health. With Protective bond they hit me for up to 20.

And that's exactly the reason why you need low MAX HP if you want this to be as effective as possible.


...Is this a character you actually have or is it something you dreamed up and speculate would be good?...

Ready:
http://www.nefkom.info/ahastar/Planetside/Xgw017.jpg

Steady:
http://www.nefkom.info/ahastar/Planetside/Xgw022.jpg

Boing!
http://www.nefkom.info/ahastar/Planetside/Xgw024.jpg

XP is nice too after a while
http://www.nefkom.info/ahastar/Planetside/Xgw025.jpg

[Cygnus Arnimane]

I would be curious how well this works against the Scarab and Scorpion swarms near the Amnoon Oasis. Or how well it works on a patroling group of 5 Windriders.

[Ahastar Darktalon]

I wouldn't recommend doing this around heavy mesmer / necro enemies. But against brute strength / mages it is pretty much unstoppable.

Windriders: One fat tank on spell breaker, 5 windriders fall fast to uncastable warriors.

Scarabs: Well...scarabs are easy with essence bond on your tanks. Due to their high attack rate your energy pretty much doesn't run out.

[Cygnus Arnimane]

I wouldn't recommend doing this around heavy mesmer / necro enemies. But against brute strength / mages it is pretty much unstoppable.

Windriders: One fat tank on spell breaker, 5 windriders fall fast to uncastable warriors.

Scarabs: Well...scarabs are easy with essence bond on your tanks. Due to their high attack rate your energy pretty much doesn't run out.

I did not see Tanks in your screen shots..I assumed you would be soloing them as well, my mistake.

[Cantos]

Thats just weird O_O

You have 21 life normally, then when you get enchanted you gain an extra 86. How did you get your life so low? I keep doing 480 - (5 x 75) and coming up with 105 as the lowest possible life ever! The only skill of yours I dont recognise is number 4, what is that?

[Cygnus Arnimane]

Thats just weird O_O

You have 21 life normally, then when you get enchanted you gain an extra 86. How did you get your life so low? I keep doing 480 - (5 x 75) and coming up with 105 as the lowest possible life ever! The only skill of yours I dont recognise is number 4, what is that?

I think slot 4 is Zealot's Fire, but I could be mistaken. I was puzzled over the 21 too...I know there is a Mesmer illusion that can drop your health temporarily and a Necromacer skills as well. At 21 Health it would just take a nasty DoT and it is lights out for you.

[Ahastar Darktalon]

There are items in the game for weapon / offhand slots that lower your MAX hp. So if you see a monk shouting in /trade: "WTB items that lower HP ... he isn't as nuts as you might think. :)

The additional HP in the last two screens comes from hotswapping those weapons out with other things in my inventory.

And I don't like to play alone. I just took those screens as an example of how extreme you can drive this style. When in a full party I am not overdoing it like that because this tactic doesn't work as well in teams. And as a monk I have other jobs then anyway (and also no need for offensive spells).

[Mr.Mustard]

what about using a superior healing rune and a superior divine on a healing monk (that does nothing other than heal).

would it be worth it, or should you just use a sup healing?

thanks