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relight
02-06-2005, 19:43
My summoner necro have a hard time getting into groups in the temple of ages...It seems that people wants only War/Monks and Eles...

Same thing happened when I play Tournament with my PvP character, I noticed that people only want w/mo/ele, and neglect N/R/Me...especially rangers, I have been playing my monk in the tournament for hours and I have yet to see one ranger in my group... most people are either W/Mo or Monks and Ele.

So noone wants N/R/Me?

Darkspider
02-06-2005, 19:55
My necro has the same problems. Idiots do not realize I have DEFILE FLESH (screws up their healing), ENFEEBLING BLOOD (screws up their damage to nothing), and MINIONS (which take pressure off of the tank). Not to mention Necro's insane DoTs (mine are -16 in total).
When I make a team, I get a Monk, then I'm happy to recieve a Mesmer, Necro, or Ranger. I am sick of W/Mos.

huxley maximus
02-06-2005, 19:57
whoa whoa hold the horses. Everyone wants one or two necros...their DoT spells are very very nice :D. I don't think many know how to play rangers. Personally, I would much rather have the ranger spot taken by a warrior/monk/anything else except a ranger. Most rangers I have played with arent very good, die to quickly and dont really bring anything to the fight. Sure, they can aggro but I can equip a bow on the fly and aggro with ease too.

Emerald Fire
02-06-2005, 19:58
People don't seem to realize that a necro has many extremely valuable skills. My necro is a summoner/curse, and I can help level the field fairly quickly. That's if people take the time to hold on just a couple of seconds so I can raise my undead. :lol:

I've gotten several compliments about my fiends taking the load off the tanks, so I don't see why it'd change heading to UW or Fissure. *shrugs?*

totalol
02-06-2005, 19:58
i think u need to remove "mesmers" from ur "no1 wants" list.
i constantly see a mesmer whiping out warriors in PvP tournaments.
anyway i also think that r and ne got a very little attention. but really...we cant overcome the fact that rangers ARE subspices.

FragJunky
02-06-2005, 20:01
To many times a good Necro is under estimated. I have both a N/Mo(18) and W/Mo(18). I know both sides of this story, and there is good and bad for both, but by far, the Necro is left out when they should be one of the first in.

In PvE, I find my Necro can get to places much easier then the W/Mo just simply because he can screw with the Enemy so bad. Raising Minions to take the heat off the players to give them time to rebuild and or heal can make the difference in any battle.

Vorador Shadowbane
02-06-2005, 20:07
I've Played a Necro sinse the E3 Prview last year, but for retail im leaving the necro as my last char, because through out all of the beta weekends, no one wanted me, even though i could easy take a worry, mess up monk and help on casters. or help heal with WoB. so this time i made a warrior first and leaving the necro as my forth char, maybe by then people will have worked out how good they are.

but saying that, you see a hell of alot more necro's these days, in the beta's Necro's were very rare

Master Ser
02-06-2005, 20:08
Necros rock.

Recently I played (I used a El/Mes) with a party consisting of: 4 Eles, combined with Mes or Monk or Ranger, plus 1 Monk/Ele plus one Necro.

The necro's minions took all the tanking and we litterally blazed through the bloodstone swamp (or whatever it's called lol) mission plus bonus without any difficulty... and there wasn't really a need for a warrior.

Plus necros have a few very nice spells indeed hehe!

Darkspider
02-06-2005, 20:13
While I agree that most people don't know how to skillfully play a Ranger, an expert Ranger is astoundingly powerful. Rangers are one of those classes considered "for experienced players".

Pvp is another matter. Mesmers, i think, are #1 in pvp with the help of a team. But in PvE, their ability is wasted because people view them as "not helpful enough" because of their percieved lack of direct damage. They forget the Mesmers incredible damage refecting skills (Backfire is amazing).

Infact, I think direct damage is the root of the whole problem with the N/R/Me classes. Alot of more ignorant players only want healers and direct damage dealers, like the Ele. They don't realize the value of messing up the opponents. Afterall, when your opponent does no damage, cannot heal, and cannot cast, what is there left to fear? *evil grin*

:cool:

Ramahi Lightleaf
02-06-2005, 20:14
Us poor rangers don't get any lovin' :(

The best team I was ever on was 6 Rangers and 2 Monks (was monk was even a Henchie). The speed with which mobs would die was something like I've never seen before. Half the time the melee baddies wouldn't even get a hit in because they would die before they could get in melee range.

Thervold
02-06-2005, 20:19
My summoner necro have a hard time getting into groups in the temple of ages...It seems that people wants only War/Monks and Eles...

Same thing happened when I play Tournament with my PvP character, I noticed that people only want w/mo/ele, and neglect N/R/Me...especially rangers, I have been playing my monk in the tournament for hours and I have yet to see one ranger in my group... most people are either W/Mo or Monks and Ele.

So noone wants N/R/Me?
I have a ranger with the same problem, and here's my theory.

A large portion of the players out there don't understand the usefullness of these classes. They want to dish out the damage and heal it up, and support classes are viewed as weak. Why bring a necro when an elementalist has more powerful damage spells or another monk can keep everyone alive longer. My guess is that most of these people come from MMOs where you can pwn with a single character. They want that, so they chose classes that can dish out as much damage as possible.

Another theory is that you don't see alot of the hexes and debuffs directly in the way you see a warrior swinging a weapon or an ele flinging flares around. All the naive warrior sees is that he's swinging his weapon and killing the monk. He doesn't see the reason he can is because the mesmer put condundrum on it and is interrupting every single attempt to heal itself. So who does the warrior think was most responsible for killing the monk? While himself of course! He was the one up there actually doing most of the damage. I'm not saying all warriors are like this, but it's an example of the mindset that many of these W/E/Mo only players may have.

It's stupid, because a good N/Me or Me/N can shut down mutliple unskilled warriors or casters, ranger traps and conditions are useful when people actually use tactics over brute strength, and a good mesmer is a monk's worst nightmare. Try combining R/Me with arcane conundrum/concussion shot. Throw in epidemic, and you can instantly daze a group of casters from range, Yet for some reason, both these classes are viewed as inferior.

A team of W/E/Mo may be able to easily defeat uncoordinated teams, and there are alot of them in the arenas and lower end of the tournament, but you'll find the best teams have a mixture of classes and know how to stack their abilities to be effective.

Zalis
02-06-2005, 20:25
There seem to be plenty of idiots out there to give us W/Mos a bad rep, but we're not all like that. Honest. :)

I try to be very mindful of the casters and rangers in my party and, more often than not, I'd take one of them over another warrior. So I guess it's hit or miss w/ we Warrior/Monks. Some of us seem to be preoccupied with poor tank-jobs and shiny objects.

AOU-Moo
02-06-2005, 20:32
I try to be very mindful of the casters and rangers in my party and, more often than not, I'd take one of them over another warrior. So I guess it's hit or miss w/ we Warrior/Monks. Some of us seem to be preoccupied with poor tank-jobs and shiny objects.


Yup, its allways good to have squishies around to protect and help you bash things.

Tortoise
02-06-2005, 20:33
Couldn't agree more, play a Warrior/Monk myself but I refuse to go into a party with more then two Warriors... Fact of the matter is just that a lot of people don't know how to play this game. Although I'm not quite sure of it, I can't imagine that the elite-guilds don't fully take advantage of mesmers, necros, and rangers... Just think of it this way: the people that refuse to play with you are probably not the people you want to play with anyways... My advice: mesmers, necros and rangers alike: Go, unite, and go kick warrior butt. It can't be that hard!

relight
02-06-2005, 20:33
Another theory is that you don't see alot of the hexes and debuffs directly in the way you see a warrior swinging a weapon or an ele flinging flares around. All the naive warrior sees is that he's swinging his weapon and killing the monk. He doesn't see the reason he can is because the mesmer put condundrum on it and is interrupting every single attempt to heal itself. So who does the warrior think was most responsible for killing the monk? While himself of course! He was the one up there actually doing most of the damage. I'm not saying all warriors are like this, but it's an example of the mindset that many of these W/E/Mo only players may have.


I agree 100% on this... great post.

the things that Mesmers and necros do are too subtle, and people only see rangers as a ranged warrior with inferior damage/hp, while neglecting some great skills like poison arrow and pin down that the ranger have and warrior doesnt.

Cloak
02-06-2005, 20:37
There seem to be plenty of idiots out there to give us W/Mos a bad rep, but we're not all like that. Honest. :)

I try to be very mindful of the casters and rangers in my party and, more often than not, I'd take one of them over another warrior. So I guess it's hit or miss w/ we Warrior/Monks. Some of us seem to be preoccupied with poor tank-jobs and shiny objects.


AGreed. I play a W/Mo and a decent one at that. I'm not an idiot to assume I do all the damage and I'd definitely pick rangers for my groups. w00t for archery and nature skills.

The question is how do we weed out the idiots who make our classes look like fools?

Thervold
02-06-2005, 20:40
There seem to be plenty of idiots out there to give us W/Mos a bad rep, but we're not all like that. Honest. :)

I try to be very mindful of the casters and rangers in my party and, more often than not, I'd take one of them over another warrior. So I guess it's hit or miss w/ we Warrior/Monks. Some of us seem to be preoccupied with poor tank-jobs and shiny objects.
I know not all of you are like that. There are many W/Mo out there that actually understand how to play the game as it was designed. Its just unfortunate that a large number of them don't, and these are the ones that are most visible.

Sir Sweepaway
02-06-2005, 20:46
haha this is a great post for sure. I can still call myself a newbie at most of the classes in guild wars (since I havn't branched out much) but I have finished the game with my W/N and im working on it with my R/E. Now most people dont know exactly what my ranger does for them. With my ranger, I am doing far more damage than my warrior does right now against mosters. In pve I hit a maximum of 4 skills and im doing constant 15s everywhere on my enemies and a few 50s here and there. All I do is cast firestorm, then lava front, then ignite arrows and duel shot. While this is more looking at a mixture of an underused class with an overused, most of the people dont understand the massive damage I do overall to my enemies. I probably do well over 300 damage total (maybe 500) to almost every mob of 4-5 guys I see with my group. I have just gotten Apply poison and I am going to see how that works out, but I intend to be a very skilled ranger some day and branch out to traps, etc. I am not a direct damage dealer like most warriors, but I do knock down my enemies about 200 hp each so that its easy for my group to take them out. Also, a ranger is essential for missions. On the last mission, my group and I had 1 mesmer and 1 ranger that helped phenomenally. The mesmer was ok but the ranger did some great pulls for us and while I didnt really keep up with either of their skills, we all worked well together. Also, we only had 2 warriors, 2 monks, a ranger, a mesmer, a necro, and I think an elementalist. One of the most balanced teams I have ever seen haha. Also I played on a team with 4 rangers (I was one of them) out of 6 people and we totally owned the enemies before they even touched us :happy14:

Joboo
02-06-2005, 20:49
I think that the reason Necro's and Rangers are in such low demand requires a little understanding of the following points.

1) Rangers and necros are harder to play because you can't hack and slash. The class requires one to be tactful. It demands patience. You can't just "wipe out" slews of enemies. It's a class that involves concepts such as: finesse, style, perseverance, and most of all cunning.

2) Most people do not have the patience for such a class. They want to level quickly. They want to kill quickly. Their idea of "strategy" is to have everyone on the same team attack at the same time, or at the very least be at the keyboard for the duration of a fight. Strategy is so much more than this. It is studying the subtle nuances of the game. It's finding the weakness in your opponents armor and then exploiting and manipulating it to your advantage. But most people don't want to do this - they want to messily hack their way through a game..

3) Most people that venture to try a ranger or necro class try to play that character like a warrior, or some other class. This usually results in that player thinking that the class is weak or "SUBSPECIES". Also, other players begin to view the class as such because it is not being utilized as was intended.

I have met and seen rangers that will put warriors into the ground in a matter of seconds. The same with necros. Why? because those people understand their class. They know how to cripple their opponent. And I've seen it happen. It's a beautiful sight and the Ranger's opponent have no clue what hit them. *sigh* I can't wait to get to that point...

My theory is that many of the Rangers and Necros out there right now are just a bunch of hacks. The really good ones are hiding in the shadows - quietly and methodically raining down their wrath upon the unsuspecting....

huxley maximus
02-06-2005, 20:57
I have a ranger with the same problem, and here's my theory.

A large portion of the players out there don't understand the usefullness of these classes. They want to dish out the damage and heal it up, and support classes are viewed as weak. Why bring a necro when an elementalist has more powerful damage spells or another monk can keep everyone alive longer. My guess is that most of these people come from MMOs where you can pwn with a single character. They want that, so they chose classes that can dish out as much damage as possible.

Another theory is that you don't see alot of the hexes and debuffs directly in the way you see a warrior swinging a weapon or an ele flinging flares around. All the naive warrior sees is that he's swinging his weapon and killing the monk. He doesn't see the reason he can is because the mesmer put condundrum on it and is interrupting every single attempt to heal itself. So who does the warrior think was most responsible for killing the monk? While himself of course! He was the one up there actually doing most of the damage. I'm not saying all warriors are like this, but it's an example of the mindset that many of these W/E/Mo only players may have.

It's stupid, because a good N/Me or Me/N can shut down mutliple unskilled warriors or casters, ranger traps and conditions are useful when people actually use tactics over brute strength, and a good mesmer is a monk's worst nightmare. Try combining R/Me with arcane conundrum/concussion shot. Throw in epidemic, and you can instantly daze a group of casters from range, Yet for some reason, both these classes are viewed as inferior.

A team of W/E/Mo may be able to easily defeat uncoordinated teams, and there are alot of them in the arenas and lower end of the tournament, but you'll find the best teams have a mixture of classes and know how to stack their abilities to be effective.
I disagree to a point. I think the main problem is rangers not knowing how to play rangers well. I would rather have a dumb warrior/monk who knows how to click on enemies and be cannon fodder than a ranger who doesnt know how to play their class well. The tank will be worth more at this point.

The thing is you can never tell who is a skilled ranger and from my experiences I havent really found any.

huxley maximus
02-06-2005, 21:00
I think that the reason Necro's and Rangers are in such low demand requires a little understanding of the following points.

1) Rangers and necros are harder to play because you can't hack and slash. The class requires one to be tactful. It demands patience. You can't just "wipe out" slews of enemies. It's a class that involves concepts such as: finesse, style, perseverance, and most of all cunning.

2) Most people do not have the patience for such a class. They want to level quickly. They want to kill quickly. Their idea of "strategy" is to have everyone on the same team attack at the same time, or at the very least be at the keyboard for the duration of a fight. Strategy is so much more than this. It is studying the subtle nuances of the game. It's finding the weakness in your opponents armor and then exploiting and manipulating it to your advantage. But most people don't want to do this - they want to messily hack their way through a game..

3) Most people that venture to try a ranger or necro class try to play that character like a warrior, or some other class. This usually results in that player thinking that the class is weak or "SUBSPECIES". Also, other players begin to view the class as such because it is not being utilized as was intended.

I have met and seen rangers that will put warriors into the ground in a matter of seconds. The same with necros. Why? because those people understand their class. They know how to cripple their opponent. And I've seen it happen. It's a beautiful sight and the Ranger's opponent have no clue what hit them. *sigh* I can't wait to get to that point...

My theory is that many of the Rangers and Necros out there right now are just a bunch of hacks. The really good ones are hiding in the shadows - quietly and methodically raining down their wrath upon the unsuspecting.... Well I figure all a warrior needs to beat a ranger is two stances that block all/most ranged attacks, two sprints and a knockdown attack followed witha blindness attack.

Sprint then set your spell to block ranged attacks get close set your block arrow stance knockdown, blind, they try to run, use your other sprint, knockdown blind rinse repeat etc.

Nightmare The Dark
02-06-2005, 21:00
I'm telling you I have a N/Mo that masters in the arts of Death Magic and Healing Prayers. I like to have at least one warrior and one ranger in my party because together they can take out an enemy really quickly with their power hits. Then once that first enemy is down I can mess with the rest of that group so bad by doing direct damage to them or making them lose health pretty quickly poisen them all or just raise a minion to help the front liners. My necro can screw with the enemy so bad hardly any group can touch him once that first enemy is dead. I love the ability to pick on how the next few enemies will die, slowly or quickly. Who doesn't want that power? You can literally play God, by picking on whether the next enemy lives or dies. (Living by slavery aka Minion or dying slowly or quickly aka Poison or Putrid Explosion)

Thervold
02-06-2005, 21:00
The question is how do we weed out the idiots who make our classes look like fools?
Wait for them to get bored with the game and go onto the next MMO that suits their playing style better. In the meantime, humble them with the power of a N/Me. It's fun. So many skills to choose from, but here's my set:
ineptitude, soothing images, spirit of failure, spirit shackles, enfeeble, price of failure, parasitic bond, rez signet.

thegrip
02-06-2005, 21:02
i think most ppl here wrt to W/Mos are referring to the twelve year olds that play this game. Get an experienced group of warriors and they can be as painful as any other profession. At the higher levels, the warriors become the support crew, and, when they realize this and do their job right, they can be a huge tip in the scales.

Of course, the "i'm uber tank" mindset gets squished. And they should. They'll learn.

Lastly, i'd second the notion that Rangers are for the most experienced players. i think an experienced Ranger is the last class i want to face... they are perhaps the most lethal class when used properly.

Joboo
02-06-2005, 21:04
I disagree to a point. I think the main problem is rangers not knowing how to play rangers well. I would rather have a dumb warrior/monk who knows how to click on enemies and be cannon fodder than a ranger who doesnt know how to play their class well. The tank will be worth more at this point.

The thing is you can never tell who is a skilled ranger and from my experiences I havent really found any.


Exactly. except that this isn't really contradicting Thervold's post. I think it you guys are actually complementing each other. People don't play rangers correctly, so their true value is never seen...

FragJunky
02-06-2005, 21:06
All through the Beta and half way through the full release, I was in the wrong frame of mind. Being a W/Mo, I was up front Tanking, not seeing them behind me, and thinking I am doing the most damage, why aren't they doing more to help me. I die, and they are standing there.

Like I said, I was in the wrong frame of mind. Before I openly put down a caster, I wanted to learn what and how they worked. I worked hard on building my N/Mo to the same level as my W/Mo. I learned a hard lesson here, and picked up two fine points.

1- Without Casters in the back ground to help heal you, and drain the enemy, a Tank will go down quick.

2- With out a Tank to protect and take the heat off Casters so they can do their job, a Caster will go down quick.

It is all about balance and giving credit where credit is due. When the chips are down, it is hard to admit I screwed up, or I should have done this or that, and blame the Casters or the Tanks for not doing what they should have. Bottom line, you have to work as a team or it does not matter how your group is made up, you will be Cannon Fodder.

Loquetus
02-06-2005, 21:07
Well I figure all a warrior needs to beat a ranger is two stances that block all/most ranged attacks, two sprints and a knockdown attack followed witha blindness attack.

Sprint then set your spell to block ranged attacks get close set your block arrow stance knockdown, blind, they try to run, use your other sprint, knockdown blind rinse repeat etc.

lol you are forgetting that rangers also have excellent sprint skills and that they have throw dirt a nice blind attack ;)
if you have a ranger/ele infront of you they might specialise in either air or water magic aswell
air = just knocking the dumb warrior down and laughing then blinding him from a distance and when he comes up close throw dirt

water = slowing from a distance so your sprint skills won't really work
or even better a water trident knocking you down before you reach them

if warrior comes to close, using a sprint skill of there own and outrunning the warrior
stance to deflect arrows ends fast so turn arround, use pin down and poison and start running again

*edit*
@frag

your second point isn't really true ;)
some mage classes can succesfully tank as well as a warrior
(earth mage) heck earth mage is probably better at tanking then a warrior
a team consisting out of nothing but mages can still pawn ;)
one or two earth mages are more then enough to tank
casting earthquake and aftershock to do some dmge while just soaking up dmge and healing just the same by casting the occasional spell

Thervold
02-06-2005, 21:09
I disagree to a point. I think the main problem is rangers not knowing how to play rangers well. I would rather have a dumb warrior/monk who knows how to click on enemies and be cannon fodder than a ranger who doesnt know how to play their class well. The tank will be worth more at this point.

The thing is you can never tell who is a skilled ranger and from my experiences I havent really found any.
I agree that many of the rangers out there don't know how to use their class, thus a dumb warrior is better then a dumb ranger. So if you form teams along the lines that everyone else is inept (and sadly enough, it is sometimes a decent assumption), you'll do better grabbing a warrior. But give us rangers a chance, and you'll notice that some of us can perform admirably in the heat of battle and bring skills to supplement the other classes quite well. With traps protecting the casters, poison slowing adding to the dps, and my favorite skill of all, distracting shot interrupting rez attempts, healing signets, spells, and a slew of other things, we can assist the team quite effectively.

Coffee_Addict
02-06-2005, 21:14
My guess is that many people choose the Ranger because they think it's going to be like the amazon from Diablo II, i.e. a huge click fest where the player who can release arrows the faster will slaughter everything in his path. In GW, a Ranger is not all about bow damage.

It is true that people give a bad name to Rangers. Just like for W/Mo, also. I have been in multiple missions with W/Mo who ust died all the time, when they're supposed to be the tanks. I personally got tired of this, and only play in parties when I can't succeed with henchmen. Because, lets face it, the healer henchmen is often far more competent than what you will find by spamming LFG.

Thervold
02-06-2005, 21:19
Well I figure all a warrior needs to beat a ranger is two stances that block all/most ranged attacks, two sprints and a knockdown attack followed witha blindness attack.

Sprint then set your spell to block ranged attacks get close set your block arrow stance knockdown, blind, they try to run, use your other sprint, knockdown blind rinse repeat etc.
I've noticed few warriors actually use arrow blocking skills, and a simple pin down can allow the ranger to keep a distance from a single attacking warrior. The result is a stalemate where your typical W/Mo is healing faster then the ranger can damage, but the ranger is keeping the warrior away with cripple and healing himself with unguent. Also, with throw dirt, the ranger can blind the warrior easier then the warrior can with knockdown/belly smash. The problem is an inexperienced ranger will just stand there taking blows from the warrior. This is almost always doom for the ranger who needs to use distance as a defensive weapon.

Crimson Stigmata
02-06-2005, 21:19
I have two characters:

R/Ele (formerly Ranger/Mesmer but I changed to Ele as I am going to create a mesmer primary. I hardly use ele skills)

Me/N (lvl 14)

So I am screwed eh? Well, not quite. But my dilemma lies from the fact that I should join a group with less members at that moment. Cos if I'm going to join people with the last 2 slots open, chances are they would want warriors or monks.

We were able to finish the final mission with 3 rangers actually and only one warrior. If you bring in favorable winds with several rangers in your group, enemies dont stand a chance. And I dont think that rangers die easily in general. I am usually the last one to die in the group. They are also good in running cos rangers have 2 running skills (3..if escape is a speed buff. dont have it yet)

As for mesmers, they're awesome for PvP (and even in PvE). I played one at the beginning (currently concentrating on PvE right now) and my rank shot up to 127. My teammates send me message when they're at the tombs to invite me, signifying the appreciation of having a mesmer in their party.Also, rift wardens go down in an instant with a mesmer and warrior.

Loquetus
02-06-2005, 21:20
only downside of healer henchie = one maelstorm and healer is dead
:happy53:
if you have the 2 healing henchies chances are both of them are dead cause of that maelstorm
also they don't seem to understand what staying back and heal means >>

Thervold
02-06-2005, 21:26
Lastly, i'd second the notion that Rangers are for the most experienced players. i think an experienced Ranger is the last class i want to face... they are perhaps the most lethal class when used properly.
I personally fear an experienced mesmer more then anything, but an experienced <fill in any profession> is a force worth reconing with. That's why I like this game. You need to have experience and intelligence to win, not just the best items.

Thervold
02-06-2005, 21:29
only downside of healer henchie = one maelstorm and healer is dead
:happy53:
if you have the 2 healing henchies chances are both of them are dead cause of that maelstorm
also they don't seem to understand what staying back and heal means >>
Leaving the ice cave of sorrows, you fight a group of ice imps. I've never seen a full group of lvl 20s die so fast then a group of henchmen playing in the stacked maelstorms.

Sly Marbo
02-06-2005, 21:43
I posted a thread similar to this awhile back with having problems with my ranger, so I feel your pain. Seems Necros/Rangers/Mes have the most problems as people don't understand what they can actually do. Or in the Rangers class there are just so many, the noobs out there get generalized as what the entire class is like.

Anyone interested in it can check it out here:

Frustrations of Being a Ranger (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=347881)

Nefaru Firestorm
02-06-2005, 21:50
As a N/El sometimes I have a very hard time getting onto teams for PvP (or missions) which is why I usually only stick with my guildmates.

People seem to not realize what an army of 12-18 undead pets (minions, horrors, and fiends) do to the opposing teams. Especially if you have enough monks that one will stick around with you and heal your pets. (can get 25+ easily then)

And then as an Elemantalist I bring along Firestorm and Meteor Shower. Surrounded by pets, knocked down by meteors, and a lot of AoE damage...death comes quickly.

EdwardgbGW
02-06-2005, 21:58
only downside of healer henchie = one maelstorm and healer is dead
:happy53:
if you have the 2 healing henchies chances are both of them are dead cause of that maelstorm
also they don't seem to understand what staying back and heal means >>

The healer henchies position themselves between the front and back line attacks.

Mob --- Warriors --- Healers --- ranged...


I think everyone should have to play with henchmen to start with...

Im a Ranger/Monk lvl20 with near 200hrs and I have done all but 3 of the missions with henchies, and most of them solo.
I have also died nearly 600 times as well.


I think that it has made me a better player as I understand how my Ranger works and what the good and bad points are. When grouping I have a few friends (2 rangers 1 warrior) that I really only team up with as im fed up of the abuse rangers get when your the last ones standing, especially when you have monk as secondary.

I agree with the earlier post about front line Characters appearing to do all the damage and the rear guard looking like they are doing little if nothing.

I can also sympathise with the casting groups as the amount of time "looking for monk" and "warrior needed" springs up is demoralising.

I find that a good thing to try for character appreciation is get a group of friends together of dif classes and see how long you all last individually against the same mob and see who does what damage (a good place to try this is Lorners pass as its just in and out the gate at Beacons a few times). Then try sending two in at a time... ect ect. After a while you should be able to see who can do what and how much for how long, and who compliments who.

So my idea is that every player should have to play every class to a certain level before they can progress onto secondary classes, grouping, and ultimatly further into the game.

TheDivider
02-06-2005, 21:59
Personally I think Im an excellent ranger. My Guild always gives me the heads up when they go to UW or need some help in the status/speed department. At first my guild didnt really like Rangers ( I was the first in Guild) but when I started playing with them they realized I could hold my own and bring more than distance attacking in fights. I have 3 Characters created but I play as my Ranger the most, if you really know how to use a Ranger then its hella fun. Its true most Rangers are useless, I think most people picked them cuz of there range but people gotta consider the crap load of other skills that can help group out. As for other classes, I love picking Mesmers, and Necs for missions. Im a Ra/Mes so I realize how much frustration and status effects Mesmers bring to other players. Its great. :happy34:

Scyfer
02-06-2005, 22:05
rangers ARE subspices.

Say what? :P



I have to agree - I'm not sure anyone has tried this in PVP, but a mostly ranger team would seriously be strong. Add onto it all the area affect +speed boosts that one person could cast, doubling everyone's attack speed, for example. In PvE I always take the archer along, and then a monk (I'm a ranger).

Also the reason some people haven't seen rangers play well is because they don't let the rangers play well, even if they get a good ranger. It's damned hard to prepare & have skills set up and pick targets well when the warrior (or even monks & elementalists) run straight at things over and over and get in the middle of everything and do *not* care that you need a bit of time to prepare and SHOULD be the first person to hit a target, as a ranger.

Hades the Terrible
02-06-2005, 22:23
Rangers rock man. 1 ranger brought down 3 warrior/monks in a random area fight after teh rest of my team died lol. It only used ranger skills so no secondary profession helped.

But really, it sucks being a ranger though. People do not like us. However, when there are elemental enemies, we can tank those suckers lol. Warriors have 80 + 20 vs physical while rangers have 70 + 30 vs elemental. I can tell a good ranger by one thing so far. Pets. If I see a ranger with a pet, he is most likely a noob or just sucks a lot. Now not all rangers with pets suck but most of them do.

Crimson Stigmata
02-06-2005, 22:24
Does anyone realize how useful frozen soil and traps in PvP are? We got to HoH with a trapper ranger (I played mesmer at the time). He was awesome. I havent had the chance to play as a ranger in pvp yet.)

pin down (for rangers) and/or imagined burden (mesmer) work wonders in that relic mission in PvP. Also, Necro's well of blood and minions is a lot of help. Necro's also have tons of life degen spells that affect several foes. Not to mention inflict weakness on those pesky warriors.

SoliS
02-06-2005, 22:36
ranger's rule. especially in groups, with spirits. if you have 4 rangers, and each one uses a different spirit, thats 1/4 the mana cost for each and 4x the benefit. WOOOO!! not to mention self healing, lots of disrupting and/or damage skills, traps, healing (especially healing spring... i've kept more freaking warriors alive with that spell....)

alot of people DO underestimate the power of a necro or mesmer. Mesmer's are probably the rarest class to find in PvE. I've played with only a handful.

however, having a necro REALLY rocks.

most of the time I spam for a tank, ele, or monk because those are the only types of characters i have yet to find. I try to get a balanced party - 1 or two of each type of character. 2 tanks, 2 monks, 2 casters/ranged, 2 screwer-uppers. or 1 tank 1 minion/death necro. balanced is the key. Rangers are such a balanced class (they are a jack of all trades) that if you have alot of them you can still do very well because they do it ALL.

Kamahl
02-06-2005, 22:44
My guess is that many people choose the Ranger because they think it's going to be like the amazon from Diablo II, i.e. a huge click fest where the player who can release arrows the faster will slaughter everything in his path. In GW, a Ranger is not all about bow damage.

It is true that people give a bad name to Rangers. Just like for W/Mo, also. I have been in multiple missions with W/Mo who ust died all the time, when they're supposed to be the tanks. I personally got tired of this, and only play in parties when I can't succeed with henchmen. Because, lets face it, the healer henchmen is often far more competent than what you will find by spamming LFG.
haha yup my first char was ranger cuz i was a dii zon player but boy was i wrong here rangers are all about the conditions/disrupting casters which is prolly why people dont want then in pve in pvp its a different story

huxley maximus
02-06-2005, 22:59
lol you are forgetting that rangers also have excellent sprint skills and that they have throw dirt a nice blind attack ;)
if you have a ranger/ele infront of you they might specialise in either air or water magic aswell
air = just knocking the dumb warrior down and laughing then blinding him from a distance and when he comes up close throw dirt

water = slowing from a distance so your sprint skills won't really work
or even better a water trident knocking you down before you reach them

if warrior comes to close, using a sprint skill of there own and outrunning the warrior
stance to deflect arrows ends fast so turn arround, use pin down and poison and start running again

*edit*
@frag

your second point isn't really true ;)
some mage classes can succesfully tank as well as a warrior
(earth mage) heck earth mage is probably better at tanking then a warrior
a team consisting out of nothing but mages can still pawn ;)
one or two earth mages are more then enough to tank
casting earthquake and aftershock to do some dmge while just soaking up dmge and healing just the same by casting the occasional spell
Ya well between all the stances you can avoid all knockdowns, arrow attacks etc etc etc. I guess it would be an interesting test.

Hades the Terrible
02-06-2005, 23:03
lol you are forgetting that rangers also have excellent sprint skills and that they have throw dirt a nice blind attack ;)
if you have a ranger/ele infront of you they might specialise in either air or water magic aswell
air = just knocking the dumb warrior down and laughing then blinding him from a distance and when he comes up close throw dirt

water = slowing from a distance so your sprint skills won't really work
or even better a water trident knocking you down before you reach them

if warrior comes to close, using a sprint skill of there own and outrunning the warrior
stance to deflect arrows ends fast so turn arround, use pin down and poison and start running again

*edit*
@frag

your second point isn't really true ;)
some mage classes can succesfully tank as well as a warrior
(earth mage) heck earth mage is probably better at tanking then a warrior
a team consisting out of nothing but mages can still pawn ;)
one or two earth mages are more then enough to tank
casting earthquake and aftershock to do some dmge while just soaking up dmge and healing just the same by casting the occasional spell

Think of a ranger with earth magic. They can just throw up a ward against melee and keep on attacking :happy34:

Zon2000
02-06-2005, 23:06
The problem is that while N/R/Mes are powerful classes/skills in their own right, what and how they accomplish it is very, very subtle.

Two examples:

1) A ranger has distracting shot. If you were attempting, say a heal and got hit/interrupted by distracting shot, you can't attempt that again for 20 seconds. Unfortunately the game doesn't tell you (the ranger) that you were successful. The only way you know is if you see if your target got the heal off or not. And guess what? Your teammates won't know either.

2) Playing against some mergoyles last night (they're mostly mesmers). Got hit by spirit shackles. And before I knew it, I had zero energy. And it stayed that way. That seriously put a damper on my offensive power; couldn't reapply poison, no special attack skills, etc. So again, if you were a mesmer and used it, nobody would realize how nice this skill is.

Another problem is that some of these classes don't come into their own "power" until mid or later in the game - when they get the real effective skills. By which time new players will already have made up their minds about class X or class Y "sucking".

Not much you can do. These type of skills/classes are important but their direct effect are very hard to gauge. In the end, it's mostly experienced players who will appreciate the harder-to-play classes.

TalonSlayer
02-06-2005, 23:07
You mean, my Necro/Mesmer won't be sought after? =(

gismo
02-06-2005, 23:11
I can tell a good ranger by one thing so far. Pets. If I see a ranger with a pet, he is most likely a noob or just sucks a lot. Now not all rangers with pets suck but most of them do.
How so? If you have a higher level pet you have a decent tank that can deal a decent amount of energy. And only at the cost of one skill slot.

TheQuickness
02-06-2005, 23:14
all this warrior vs necro stuff...hehe its reminding me of my old pvp tank monk.

Made it several different ways but the best way was Mo/N. I clearly remember many times having 4 warriors push through the lines to me, where I happily laid down an enfeebling blood, mark of pain, insiduous parisite, and spiteful spirit. they hacked and slashed themselves to death much faster than their monks could heal them....losers.


How so? If you have a higher level pet you have a decent tank that can deal a decent amount of energy. And only at the cost of one skill slot.

And thats not ENTIRELY true, or at least not how its suspected.

Most people here believe beast mastery directly affects the damage defense and basically the overal stregth of a pet. A pet belonging to a ranger with no beast mastery is just a small nusance if this is true. and a small nusance is a waste of a skill spot. plus in PvE if you only bring that one skills slot(like most people) your pet WILL die, and then it will be a COMPLETE waste of a skill slot.

a pet can be very useful if used properly, a rangers main weakness as I see is their attack speed is slow and most of their skills(like warriors) can only be done as fast as their attack speed. With a mixture of beast attacks and bow attack that work together you can lay down conditions twice as fast, which is always a good thing.

380 Realm
02-06-2005, 23:21
If I see a ranger with a pet, he is most likely a noob or just sucks a lot.

How does having a pet make a ranger a "noob"?? Personally, I like having an extra teammate to keep monsters off me, distracting them so I can shoot them down without worry of dying (unless the pet dies, then I worry). We are both level 8, by the way.

You play your way and let the rangers play how they want to.

Digital Bath
02-06-2005, 23:35
Hey, I use my pet as cannon fodder really. It's another body that can get between me and the enemies so I have no problem for it. I mean, as of now in PvE, there really aren't too many other skills that I have/want to use.

Quickbeam
02-06-2005, 23:37
Ranger pets are fine to have by your side... to a point. I've not seen many lvl20 R w/ pets, myself included. I used mine up until about 15, IIRC. The pet was priceless up until about 12, then it just became less and less necessary.

Milamber Ill
02-06-2005, 23:44
Wow. Great thread. I prided myself as a decent ranger/elementalist, but I realized after reading this there is so much more to learn.

I have a pet, level 11-12 Cat which I use to take some of my damage as well as go out and attack foes which I attack from a distance. I use both Charm and Comfort so I heal him well. Following this though, I think I will ditch him for a bit, free up 3 slots (I also had Call of haste) and experiment with traps which seem to be the strength of the ranger but I have been avoiding.

My set as it was:

Power Shot, debilitating shot, Ignite Arrows, charm pet, comfort pet, glyph of lesser energy, firestorm, Call of haste.

I only use Glyph to cast firestorm cost-effectively.

Another thing I was unaware of was the power/advantages of water and air magic. I put all my attribute points for ele on fire and with firestorm I deal 12-17 firedamage on regular enemies and 20+ on ice creatures.

****** Gates of Kryta Spoilers Warning *******
About the tanks. I was running the gates of kryta mission with a group yesterday. The one where you must defeat an army of the undead in order to open the way to LA. Once we go to the swampy area and cleared that up, we had that one large group, including the boss, that stays outside of the pit. A previous attempt ended up with us all dying after we did the usual which is to send in the tank, attract them, and bring them to us where we could deal some damage from a distance. The problem is the tank needs to get close and brought the whole mob on us and they just slaughered us.

On the 2nd attempt I volunteered to go to the edge of the swamp and target one of the foes with an arrow, after a hit, I ran back to the group, and we slaughtered them in turn. Only 1/2 the crew of monsters charged back as opposed to the entire group.

Wow.. sorry for the monologue. Keep the ranger stories coming :)

Rekit
03-06-2005, 17:57
I can tell a good ranger by one thing so far. Pets. If I see a ranger with a pet, he is most likely a noob or just sucks a lot. Now not all rangers with pets suck but most of them do.

So all you have to do is SEE a pet and you automagically assume the Ranger is a terrible player, before the mission even starts? Bad past experience with 'newer' players maybe? Or uncaring Rangers who only use their pet as a meat shield then leave it behind dead because they didn't bother bringing Comfort Animal? a GOOD Ranger takes care of their pet and BUFFS them!

My wife is a lvl 20 Ranger/Monk, and *never* goes out the gate without her lvl 20 Bear, and many times once outside half the group says "oohhh a Bear!", and the other half has 'that' attitude, usually "omg a worthless Beast Ranger!"... until they're all laying there dead, watching that 'worthless' Bear help her decimate the remaining enemies, then she'll rez the group and they continue on, and *always* with alot more respect and admiration than they showed coming out the gate... and she still gets alot of invites to come help a group, it's always 'and please bring your Bear, we neeeeed you!'...

She likes to joke that the Bear stays by her side at all times because "A lady needs her protection, after all!", but he's that and so much more, with the right skillset that Bear is a better tank than a vast number of the kiddie-mindset "I am GOD, fear me!" Warriors that so many of us get stuck with, and it doesn't take any share of the gold or items that drop... why pass up a free and very effective tank that can be a GREAT asset to a group? :happy65:

Dark Savant
09-06-2005, 00:56
I think that the reason Necro's and Rangers are in such low demand requires a little understanding of the following points.

1) Rangers and necros are harder to play because you can't hack and slash. The class requires one to be tactful. It demands patience. You can't just "wipe out" slews of enemies. It's a class that involves concepts such as: finesse, style, perseverance, and most of all cunning.

2) Most people do not have the patience for such a class. They want to level quickly. They want to kill quickly. Their idea of "strategy" is to have everyone on the same team attack at the same time, or at the very least be at the keyboard for the duration of a fight. Strategy is so much more than this. It is studying the subtle nuances of the game. It's finding the weakness in your opponents armor and then exploiting and manipulating it to your advantage. But most people don't want to do this - they want to messily hack their way through a game..

3) Most people that venture to try a ranger or necro class try to play that character like a warrior, or some other class. This usually results in that player thinking that the class is weak or "SUBSPECIES". Also, other players begin to view the class as such because it is not being utilized as was intended.

I have met and seen rangers that will put warriors into the ground in a matter of seconds. The same with necros. Why? because those people understand their class. They know how to cripple their opponent. And I've seen it happen. It's a beautiful sight and the Ranger's opponent have no clue what hit them. *sigh* I can't wait to get to that point...

My theory is that many of the Rangers and Necros out there right now are just a bunch of hacks. The really good ones are hiding in the shadows - quietly and methodically raining down their wrath upon the unsuspecting....


I couldn't agree more. I mostly play my monk char. A group of my friends and I run through the underworld frequently. I wouldn't go with out them, and they are a Ranger and a Necro. The ranger pulls, i know that anyone can do this... but he utilizes traps quite well. Those nasty black aataxes don't stand a chance. As for the necro he brings well of power and blood ritual to help sustain my healing energy. This makes him invaluable to me. As i can burn through energy +60 in like 5-8 seconds. He keeps me going, so our team is able to need only one monk there, where as most groups require 2 to survive.

Almost forgot... the ranger skill fertile season is awesome at high lvl. +150 or more health and +25 armor for quite a while.. Whats not love?

thegrip
09-06-2005, 01:28
The only thing i disagree with is that i've actually levelled much faster as a ranger than a warrior. As a warrior, you tend to draw most if not all the mobs down onto you when you rush into a fight (esp. with henchmen). Of course, that was my first character so i was new to it at the time, but with the ranger you are able to better see how the battle is going with different opponents and adjust your attack and focus accordingly. As a result, a good combo of ranger attacks and mesmer spells can almost if not completely cripple or decimate the rest of the mobs while the tanks are ganging up on one. i'm sure its the same with other ranged classes (i.e. elems), but i have found that i survive a lot longer now - especially with henchmen. Longer survival = faster levelling.

Jijimuge
09-06-2005, 02:27
Firstly, there's a post (elsewhere on these forums IIRC - the big post about pets in the ranger forum) about the effect that beast mastery skill has on a pet's damage. It turns out that the damage (as well as crit hit ratio) of one's pet is dependent on one's Beast Mastery skill in much the same way that a sword warrior's effectiveness with a sword is determined by their skill in swordsmanship.

So I suspect that at least some of those who say that pets are awful haven't invested a reasonable amount of points in beast mastery. As with swords/axes etc. one will only get full damage from one's pet at 12 skill, with some tail-off in the improvement after that. It seems to me that having a pet as a ranger shouldn't be something that one does without the appropriate investment of points, as it will be more of a liability than a useful ally if one does not create an appropriate build.

After all, an axe warrior at level 20 with a skill of 4 in axe would get laughed out, I'm sure.

Secondly, there is a way for warriors to do fine with the slow pulling approach. Whereas a ranger might shoot 1 enemy with a longbow from afar, a warrior can just go up to the enemy so that the light grey circle on the combat map just brushes the enemy. The warrior can then step back a little to make sure that no other mobs are aggroed and wait for the enemy to engage the party.

Stefan and Thom tend to screw up this strategy however, so when I'm in an area that's tough enough that I feel I need to do this, I only take the ranged henchmen or partymembers who seem willing to talk strategy.

Rekiem
09-06-2005, 18:47
A ranger with a pet is usually a newbie. You have to realize that in this game, pets sucks. They dont attack all the time, they dont follow, they get stuck into places and their damage is pitifull. So, when I see a ranger with a pet, I think its a newbie because anyone else know that Beast Mastery is a attribute sink and that a pet is just a waste of a skill slot.

Hurin66
09-06-2005, 18:49
Its becayse n/r is arguably one of the worst class combinations along with n/e and e/r.