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Serendipity
03-06-2005, 14:56
As a new mesmer player, i wonder if fast casting is really necessary.

I have looked at the chart from the site, and the drop in cast timing is not astounding imo.
It would probably easier to use interrupting spells, but since the casting time of those spells are already really low i don't see the point.


I already play a N/W with no points in soul reaping so i wouldn't mind not using fast casting at all but l'd ike to hear what experienced mesmer players think.

(I am currently leaning toward a domination/ inspiration / curse mesmer/necro.)

TheQuickness
03-06-2005, 16:07
Wanna know how it becomes really useful? use it for your secondary classes spells. Most of mesmer skills are nice and short, but if your a Me/Mo consider having about 8 or so fast casting and res, then you res fast enough that to the other team it seems almost like noone ever got killed. Or fast casting for the big damage elementalist spells. Or what about a Me/N with raise horrors, you would beat any necro to that one regardless of them having bloodstained boots.

not everything has to be about your primary profession, mesmer is about thinking differently then the other classes, what other classes have a primary attrib more helpful to their secondary then their primary?

Rekiem
03-06-2005, 16:23
I think Fast casting sucks. Mainly because there is no skills assosiated to it beside Mantra of Recovery. That alone makes it pretty much useless. Next problem is that casting fast is not usefull for Mesmer skills. Interrupt are instant and the rest of our skills have long recharge and usually take 2sec to cast. But the worst part is that you need to spend 16 points into the skill to drop the casting time by half. Fast Casting is not worth the cost.

Gwyndion
03-06-2005, 18:12
Yeah, I thought it would affect recharge too when i made one....so now they force us to or make a new character or take ele or monk as a secondary

Third Quarter
03-06-2005, 20:00
Know what's fun? Casting backfire on someone who has already started casting.

If you finish before they do, it's really fun. ;)

Fast Casting rules.

cludinsk
03-06-2005, 21:08
Know what's fun? Casting backfire on someone who has already started casting.

If you finish before they do, it's really fun. ;)

Fast Casting rules.


i dont think anyone would argue that that would be fun, but that the points spent on fast casting would yeild you better results elsewhere... ie more damage/longer times/etc on a range of abilities vrs shaving .5 second off spell casting. im curious how many people have jacked fast casting up and swear by it, vrs the advantage of having another set of abilities to use effectively.

Third Quarter
03-06-2005, 22:06
i dont think anyone would argue that that would be fun, but that the points spent on fast casting would yeild you better results elsewhere... ie more damage/longer times/etc on a range of abilities vrs shaving .5 second off spell casting. im curious how many people have jacked fast casting up and swear by it, vrs the advantage of having another set of abilities to use effectively.
Fair enough. I couldn't possibly endorse shooting for the full 16. As you say, the returns aren't really worth the cost.

I myself typically put 9 points into fast casting, which I occasionally augment with a sleek mask of major fast casting for an extra +3.

This requires an investment of 48 attribute points, and is sufficient to bring the cast time for Energy Tap and Backfire from 3 seconds to 1.8.

Something I like to do is hex a caster, then quickly follow up with a second 'decoy' hex. The opposing hex-breaker isn't usually fast enough to break the Backfire, and instead removes the decoy.

Lastly, Restore Life, normally an 8s spell, can be cast in just 4.8s by a Me/Mo with 12 Fast Casting.

jvxmtg
03-06-2005, 23:08
If you will be using Domination or Inspiration Magic, atleast 10 in Fast Casting is a must, since many skills in that category rely on timing, and you can't afford to be sluggish. Mesmer does not have much of Fire Power instead it focuses on controlling the battlefield making sure everything is going according to your plan.

Nobleman Azure
04-06-2005, 06:03
Fast cast helps you summon a stream of spells faster, not a WHOLE LOT faster but you still will be able to let out more spells than someone not using it. What are the advantages?

-Making a smaller room for error for interrupters, the less your cast, the faster they have to react
-Making YOUR interrupts have more room for error
-Cutting down long cast spells by a huge amount
-Cutting down short cast spells by a small amount yet if you look at the big picture you would be using it way more times than others.


Fast Cast is one of those things about the mesmer. As usual, what a mesmer does isn't very much noticed to the point that people think were doing nothing, fast cast is one of those and sadly most mesmers ignore what at least 5-8 points in fast casting can do to help you.

Serendipity
04-06-2005, 10:01
I myself typically put 9 points into fast casting, which I occasionally augment with a sleek mask of major fast casting for an extra +3.


Thx for all the reply so far.

I am puzzled by the " mask of major fast casting for an extra +3"

Are you talking about a superior runes on a mask ? Or does +3 mask exist ? And where do you find them..

Vladuz Playmate
04-06-2005, 12:33
He said major mask, that means mask has +1 by default + a major for fast casting, wich is +2 = +3

LimDul
04-06-2005, 13:43
Thread number 189735 about Fast Casting. ;-)

To put it short: if you are an interrupter/hexer FC is a MUST - a score of around 9 (and up) is OBLIGATORY! Or you'll probably fail half your interrupts.

cludinsk
04-06-2005, 19:22
Thread number 189735 about Fast Casting. ;-)

To put it short: if you are an interrupter/hexer FC is a MUST - a score of around 9 (and up) is OBLIGATORY! Or you'll probably fail half your interrupts.


im still not seeing how fast casting help interrupts that are .25 seconds.
what skills do you find it useful for? to get fast casting to 10 means something else will be 5...

LimDul
04-06-2005, 22:54
Not really - most people concentrate on just 3 attributes and an iterrupting Mesmer will probably just have points in Fast Casting, Domination and Inspiration Magic.

And it DOES help - did you ever test your reflexes? I highly recommend it. There are many flash games that test it. Most unskilled and unprepared people have a response time of around 0.2 seconds - hence reducing the time you need to start your interrupt by ANY value is crucial. Don't forget the the casting time includes the so-called aftercast, so you actually have to be FASTER than the casting time of any given spell. From my experience I can tell that a skilled Mesmer with good reflexes and a high Fast Casting value (not too high of course) will be able to counter 1 second CT skills, whereas the same Mesmer without any points in Fast Casting wwill not.

But I won't argue with you - don't put anything in Fast Casting - just don't blame me if you have problems later. ;-)

P.S. Fast Casting is also cool for e.g. Me/E and any other build that is relying on skills with a high casting time.

Rekiem
05-06-2005, 01:26
Fast Casting is useless on interrupt. They are already insta cast. Fast Casting won't help you press the button faster. Stop spreading wrong information.

Saikyo
05-06-2005, 04:24
Fast Casting is useless on interrupt. They are already insta cast. Fast Casting won't help you press the button faster. Stop spreading wrong information.

Interrupts are NOT instant, take a look at the skills descriptions on this site, or even in game. 1/4 of a second is standard for most interrupts.

Consider trying to interrupt a 1 second spell. That's 100 hundreths of a second in time with 25 hundreths representing 1/4 of a second for your interrupt.

If you react in say about .8 seconds (pretty slow according to the last post) to the spell and click the interrupt button, with 0 points in fast casting you will fail the interrupt. Put maybe 10 points or so to cut the time to 16 hundredths of a second and you just stopped a 1 second spell.

Consider the opposite, you are casting a 1 second spell and another mesmer wants to interrupt you. With 10 points in fast casting the spell time is reduced to 0.65 seconds. It's gonna be pretty hard with a max of 0.2 seconds of reaction time to interrupt YOU unless the other mesmer also put some points into fast casting.

Fast casting is NOT useless, ESPECAILLY on interrupts.

LimDul
05-06-2005, 08:40
Thanks for the in-depth comment, Saikyo.


Stop spreading wrong information.

With all due respect - don't accuse people of spreading false information if you have no clue and obviously did never ever play any Mesmer - or at least weren't good at that.

Nobleman Azure
05-06-2005, 08:58
Fast Casting is useless on interrupt. They are already insta cast. Fast Casting won't help you press the button faster. Stop spreading wrong information.

just because you dont see a cast time bar doesnt mean its insta cast.

Feynt
05-06-2005, 09:58
I do notice that Fast Casting makes a difference, even in 3/4 casting time spells (which some interrupts are). I recommend 8 for those who lack the twitch factor that most hard core FPS gamers have developed. I find that even though I am one of those hard core FPS gamers, my R/Me misses interrupts about half the time. I like to blame lag, but unconsciously I know it's because I was too slow.

Rekiem
05-06-2005, 17:14
Interrupt takes .25 sec to go off. With 16 in Fast Casting, the spell will take .12 sec to go off. It makes absolutely no difference, its all about how quick you are to press the button.

Jaif
05-06-2005, 17:29
The margin of error between when you notice and press the button seems to be far greater than what fast-casting gives you.

-Jeff

LimDul
05-06-2005, 18:11
Interrupt takes .25 sec to go off. With 16 in Fast Casting, the spell will take .12 sec to go off. It makes absolutely no difference, its all about how quick you are to press the button.

Yes - and Fast Casting gives you a greater response time buffer. If you are slow and press your interrupt 0.26 seconds BEFORE the casting of some other spell goes off you'll fail without Fast Casting but won't with it.

If it's so hard to understand some obvious facts then any further discussion is pointless. Like I said - do as you please but don't blame me for being a crappy Mesmer.

Rekiem
05-06-2005, 18:36
Yes -

Thats all you had to say :)

Jaif
05-06-2005, 21:40
If you are slow and press your interrupt 0.26 seconds BEFORE the casting of some other spell goes off you'll fail without Fast Casting but won't with it.

But how often will that time really make a difference? Once every 2 or 3 fights? You can improve far more just by experience, e.g.recognizing casting motions and icons faster, and also by just understanding what people are going to cast in certain situations.

In other words, looking in the right direction, with your cursor on the right person, and choosing the right moment to try to interrupt is more important than shaving a tenth of a second off of your interrupt time.

-Jeff

Jaif
05-06-2005, 21:44
Now that I think about it, this argument reminds me of hot-blooded teens talking about how their speedy reactions will keep them out of accidents. Statistics show conclusively that experience and attentiveness is by far more important than someone's video-game reflexes.

-Jeff

P.S. I'm just arguing about the interrupt times. If you want to say that turning 2s spells into 1s spells makes a difference, that's another story.

Pyro Gl
05-06-2005, 22:04
i've played an interrupt mesmer for a LONG time now. fast casting is very important for an interrupt mesmer. Unless your using a spell like arcane conundrum which only works on one target, you will have an extreemely tough time interrupting monks spamming orison. first of all, the spell shows up underneath their bar at the top of the screen a little after they start casting. to interrupt it, you have to press the button as it starts to appear BEFORE you read what it is, and that is still VERY hard. you will have to stare up there and won't be able to do anything till they cast.

if you watch the player, you can see a little before when they start casting, but it's hard to tell, and you won't know what they are using.

if you haven't tried interrupting 1 second casts, you should try it to see what i mean. Unless you have REALLY FAST reflexes (which partially comes with experience) you will be late by maybe a tenth of a second most of the time. A tenth of a second isn't that short in terms of reflexes, and using fast cast it can be improved.

I play a pure domination mesmer with 14 domination and 13 fast cast. I can interrupt 1 second casts about 80% of the time. With no fast cast, i'd say it was about 30%. The time difference doesn't seem like much, but it really boosts your reflex time. i mean how would you want to use a spell that says 70% chance of failure for fast cast under 7, with no fast cast, cause that's basically what it is.

Feynt
05-06-2005, 22:53
I've tried breaking 1 second spells before, but I could only succeed when I suspected they were about to cast and beat them to it. By that, I mean I was pressing my interrupt at about the same time as they cast so the instant their spell started it was broken.

LimDul
05-06-2005, 23:01
And that's when Fast Casting helps again - if you time your interrupt (or any other spell) exactly with your target, then you will ALWAYS be faster with a right FC value.

FC can't make a good Mesmer out of an unskilled Mesmer, who can't time his/her spells correctly - it will, however, make an excellent Mesmer out of a merely good Mesmer. =)

nagomi
06-06-2005, 17:37
Does Fast Casting have any effect on Skill Recharge time?
thats what i wanted to know,
because skills that i often use took quite a while to recharge (4,5sec or more)
If it does...i think i'll put 16 on it :D

Serendipity
06-06-2005, 18:10
Does Fast Casting have any effect on Skill Recharge time?
thats what i wanted to know,
because skills that i often use took quite a while to recharge (4,5sec or more)
If it does...i think i'll put 16 on it :D

No but the only skill linked to fast casting, Mantra of recovery, does.

Nobleman Azure
06-06-2005, 19:11
sure, reflex works to help you interrupt but that also means you are tunnel visioned to that person.

A good mesmer shuts down several characters, not just one because your team traded off a healer or a damage dealer for you, and you're considered shut down too. If you only control 1 person, then thats 1 for 1 deal and isnt much of an advantage.

To shut down several characters you have to look at what all of them are doing and act based on it, you pounce at a sign of action done (Oh look that guy is spamming, backfire! That guy is an air ele, energy deny). One cannot first notice the character is going to cast, then click on him, then hit interrupt in less than a second.

The only way average or even above average human reflex can beat a one second spell with a 1/4 second is if you are focused on a target and waiting for him to do something.

Its easy to beat these target focusers, when i notice i get interrupted by a mesmer I jumble my skill usage, like if my HP drops to 50% instead of healing touch i do mend ailment, then what happens is thats what they counter expecting i was going to heal, and then do healing touch then orison.

Pyro Gl
06-06-2005, 21:21
it's also very annoying when a caster get's behind something, so you lose eye contact, by the time you see the spell by the spell bar it's too late. interrupting is NOT easy. THOSE ppl need a dose of arcane conundrum :evil:

jstreed
07-06-2005, 17:47
*Ahem*


I would like to lay this thread to rest with the following:


For those of you who think fast casting is useless:


Mantra of recovery : For 5-17 seconds, spells you cast recharge 50% faster.

+

Arcane Echo: if you cast a "spell" in the next 10-26 seconds, Arcane Echo is replaced with that spell for 20 seconds. Arcane Echo ends prematurely if you use a non-spell skill.

+ whatever your heart desires.



That's how a fast-casting mesmer controls the battle. That's how I roll.


My Mesmer: 12 fast casting, 11 domination, 11 inspiration.

61 max energy (yes, even elementalists think my character is bugged, but he's not): +15 from cane, +12 from perfect chalice (which also provides x2 +%20 casting times on Inspiration spells). +Stylish chest armor, enchanter's rest to give max energy



handle: Xerxes Alexandr

Gwyndion
07-06-2005, 17:57
*Ahem*


I would like to lay this thread to rest with the following:


For those of you who think fast casting is useless:


Mantra of recovery : For 5-17 seconds, spells you cast recharge 50% faster.

+

Arcane Echo: if you cast a "spell" in the next 10-26 seconds, Arcane Echo is replaced with that spell for 20 seconds. Arcane Echo ends prematurely if you use a non-spell skill.

+ whatever your heart desires.



That's how a fast-casting mesmer controls the battle. That's how I roll.


My Mesmer: 12 fast casting, 11 domination, 11 inspiration.

61 max energy (yes, even elementalists think my character is bugged, but he's not): +15 from cane, +12 from perfect chalice (which also provides x2 +%20 casting times on Inspiration spells). +Stylish chest armor, enchanter's rest to give max energy



handle: Xerxes Alexandr

For me it seems better to be a ME/R and use quickening zephyr or serpents reflexes or the like since they aren't elite, and arcane echo isn't affected by fast casting, but by illusion magic....

jstreed
07-06-2005, 18:06
and arcane echo isn't affected by fast casting, but by illusion magic....

I knew somebody was going to say it.....


I never said Arcane Echo was adjusted by Fast Casting...nobody did. 10 seconds (with 0 illusion) is long enough for me to figure out which spell to double. Please don't make assumptions.

Gwyndion
07-06-2005, 18:09
Why then did you state it as proof of fast castings usefullness?

jstreed
07-06-2005, 18:32
Why then did you state it as proof of fast castings usefullness?

Because fast-casting makes OTHER skills useful. that's the reason there's only one skill it the Fast-Casting tree. It makes other skills better. So using skill combos is a natural way of showing fast-castings use.


Remember: Arcane echo's window is based on Illusion, but it's effect is not.

Arcane Echo: If you cast a "spell" in the next 10-26 seconds, Arcane Echo is replaced with that spell for 20 seconds. Arcane Echo ends prematurely if you use a non-spell skill.

Gwyndion
07-06-2005, 19:02
If you take such a skill as arc echno allong, you know what spell you'll use it for, and the longest cast time is 8 seconds I think, but its true FC is good cross class spells

Yanna Fairhame
08-06-2005, 11:26
wierd how this post is primarly conserned with the fastest spellls in the game.... me personaly my current build uses lvl 10 fastcasting and a lvl 7 restore life.. i can get it off in 5 sec instead of 8.. im the primary rezer of the group alowing people to save their rez signets or not even bother.

Dukan
12-06-2005, 19:26
My Mesmer: 12 fast casting, 11 domination, 11 inspiration.

61 max energy (yes, even elementalists think my character is bugged, but he's not): +15 from cane, +12 from perfect chalice (which also provides x2 +%20 casting times on Inspiration spells). +Stylish chest armor, enchanter's rest to give max energy
So, there actually are canes(rods/wands) with that kind of energy bonus? I imagine they are rare. Is there a limiting modifier on it? I have a gold smiting rod for my monk that gives +5 energy, but only with health above 50%.

And about the chalice... are you saying that +XX% bonuses stack? Say, if I had a wand/rod/cane that gave +20% increase in casting and an offhand item with the same, would that make for 40% chance?

LimDul
12-06-2005, 20:38
No it wouldn't.

Btw. the Crystal Desert Collectors offer some nice items. E.g. a +27 energy, +30hp focus (with -1 energy regen though) and some nice Canes. Check them out.

Dukan
12-06-2005, 20:53
Btw. the Crystal Desert Collectors offer some nice items. E.g. a +27 energy, +30hp focus (with -1 energy regen though) and some nice Canes. Check them out.
I have. I'm using my monk to acquire items for my other characters. ;)
I'd still like to have a cane with a good energy bonus, though.

And I did find another thread about the stacking of those +% bonuses. Not much info yet... we'll see.
http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=350733

drhakit
13-06-2005, 01:57
For fun with domination and fast casting put 12 or so in each add a couple of items. Use mantra of recovery and then black out. They can't use skills for 7 seconds which recharges in 5 seconds and you can only not use skills for 5 seconds. Thus you could completely turn of a character for 14-21 seconds depending on your energy and still occasionally cast spells in the 2 second window.

drhak it

Aramon
13-06-2005, 18:06
Arcane Echo: if you cast a "spell" in the next 10-26 seconds, Arcane Echo is replaced with that spell for 20 seconds. Arcane Echo ends prematurely if you use a non-spell skill.

Arcane Echo is a flat 20 seconds, then it mimics the spell for 20 seconds.

Samuel
14-06-2005, 02:08
For fun with domination and fast casting put 12 or so in each add a couple of items. Use mantra of recovery and then black out. They can't use skills for 7 seconds which recharges in 5 seconds and you can only not use skills for 5 seconds. Thus you could completely turn of a character for 14-21 seconds depending on your energy and still occasionally cast spells in the 2 second window.

drhak it
if ur gonna just improve 1 skill u might as well use echo instead since its only 5 energy.

Defiled Immortal
15-06-2005, 20:38
with regards to Fast casting being useful.... 2 words
FAST RES.

cludinsk
15-06-2005, 21:05
if ur gonna just improve 1 skill u might as well use echo instead since its only 5 energy.

not if you wanna copy an elite.....

Rekiem
15-06-2005, 23:31
The more I play Mesmer, the more Im finding this class to be inferior to the other ones.

I think the main reason is because Fast Casting is a total waste. Casting quickly doesn't seem to be usefull unless you want to do some burst damage with elementalist skills, which we cant really use effectively without the runes and the large energy pool.

Fast Casting is also a pretty bad attribute because it doesnt have any skill linked to it, beside Mantra of Recovery, which is not a very good elite skill. When you first cast the spell, you lose 15 energy, even if your skills recharge faster, you will rarely have the energy to use them because the stance energy cost is too high.

But what makes it worst is that Fast Casting is overall a useless skill for Mesmer. Simply because most of our skills are Hexes, which don't really benefit from being launched quickly, they take their effect over time.

Samuel
16-06-2005, 02:51
not if you wanna copy an elite.....
mantra of recovery is a elite to so? xO

and mantra of recovery doesnt work on blackout, its a skill not a spell

Ashantara
16-06-2005, 07:28
Does Fast Casting really affect your secondary profession's spells as well (like those of Elementalist or Necromancer Magic)?? :eek:

Gwyndion
16-06-2005, 14:05
Yeah, and I'm agreeing with you, mesmer as primary seems inferior, almost every other primary only status seems better, monks: Fivine favour, for every point, any spell you cast on an ally also heals him for 3,2 i think, and good skills. Ranger: Expertise: Reduces the energy cost by 4%, and many good skills...Elementalist: 3 more energy for every point into energy storage. ALso a few handy skills Necromancers, soul reaping, for every point in it, you get that much energy when something close to you dies. Warriors, strength, armour penetration and some good skills, okay, for an interrupt it works slightly, but the mesmer main stat fast casting doesnt seem worth it, if it would also have an affect on energy cost/recharge time I could understand it...

Rizzy
16-06-2005, 14:47
Yeah, and I'm agreeing with you, mesmer as primary seems inferior, almost every other primary only status seems better, monks: Fivine favour, for every point, any spell you cast on an ally also heals him for 3,2 i think, and good skills. Ranger: Expertise: Reduces the energy cost by 4%, and many good skills...Elementalist: 3 more energy for every point into energy storage. ALso a few handy skills Necromancers, soul reaping, for every point in it, you get that much energy when something close to you dies. Warriors, strength, armour penetration and some good skills, okay, for an interrupt it works slightly, but the mesmer main stat fast casting doesnt seem worth it, if it would also have an affect on energy cost/recharge time I could understand it...
Do you know how slow necromancers are in PVP?
And how often does someone die for him to steal energy from?

A Mes nec is more capable of casting curses faster.

Especially that soulbarb thing.
By the time a Mesmer hits on backfire, the necro is just about done with soul barb.

Seriously Fast Casting is more worth it for PVPing.
Soul Reaping, sure if you manage to make a billion army of undead minions, it be wonderful!

Otherwise.

Gwyndion
16-06-2005, 15:01
I'm not talking about pvp, but about pve, like I usually do...

Nobleman Azure
16-06-2005, 15:19
and frrm my long "going away" im back and i can see theres still debate about FC. Just look at it this way, anything faster than what fast cast can do will make mesmer class broken. I actually find myself making mesmer primaries because of fast cast. There are soooo many fun things to do with fast casting attribute.

As for PVE, how about landing that meteor shower in record time? Heck, and AoE is in top shape being casted fast like that.

Gwyndion
16-06-2005, 15:42
Whats AeO? And I'm pretty mucha pure mesmer, probably gonna make a fast casting nuker after this...FC doesn't seem that usefull, the max speed reduction is good, half, but it would be nicer if it was a set amount, like expertise, and maybe the speed reduction should be reduced , but also affect recharge time and maybe energy cost too?

Rizzy
16-06-2005, 15:58
Whats AeO? And I'm pretty mucha pure mesmer, probably gonna make a fast casting nuker after this...FC doesn't seem that usefull, the max speed reduction is good, half, but it would be nicer if it was a set amount, like expertise, and maybe the speed reduction should be reduced , but also affect recharge time and maybe energy cost too?

AeO or rather AOE stands for Area of Effect its the term used for Nuker type classes.

Pure mesmers also have one AOE spell called Chaos Storm.

And by the way, every single seconds count in PVE or PVP, so what little seemingly insignificant few seconds FC reduces might not seem significant to you, it sure as hell is to me.

I see elementalists still struggling with their Fire storm/ Meteor Shower, while Im already halfway to casting my Chaos storm.

And even one seccond lesser in casting time, might save you from being knocked down and having the skill disabled.

So dont ever take FC for granted.

I remember how much I hated being a Nec/Mes for the simple fact that my curses take forever to cast.

Gwyndion
16-06-2005, 16:08
In py opinion, a second shaved of isn't that big a deal, when I'm at mesmer enemies, I can just use short cast spells, or make my henchies meelee, whats the use of shaving half a second or so off, since the spell needs to recharge for lets say 15 seconds? Now if every point in fast casting reduced cast and recharge time by 2 % or so, now that would be worthwile

Ashantara
16-06-2005, 17:35
Will I get an answer at last?? :rolleyes:

Does Fast Casting work for your secondary profession's spells as well?

Nobleman Azure
16-06-2005, 17:40
yes it does


as for FCs reduction, a second reduced is VERY important on places such as underworld because of the tough and strong monsters such as aatxe, the sooner you down at least one of them the sooner your team warriors can breathe easily.

Primary stats are supposed to be support stats, i dont think any of them really is meant to be raised to incredible amounts except if your build focuses on what the stat can do.

Gwyndion
16-06-2005, 18:14
yes it does


as for FCs reduction, a second reduced is VERY important on places such as underworld because of the tough and strong monsters such as aatxe, the sooner you down at least one of them the sooner your team warriors can breathe easily.

Primary stats are supposed to be support stats, i dont think any of them really is meant to be raised to incredible amounts except if your build focuses on what the stat can do.

Riiiight, so no ranger will raise his expertise high? No warriors wants high armour piercing? Necros dont want most of their energy back from their summons? Monks hate it that their enchantments heal with divine favour? Elementalists wonder what the use is of having more max energy with 25 energy spells? Sorry for the sarcasm, but all of those skills seem very helpfull for almost any of that classes skills, at the start i was wondring why i saw almost no mesmers, and in the middle of the game why i saw a fair amount of /me , now I know, because compared to some of the other primary attributes, FC seems pretty worthless...it would already be better if it reduced by a set amount of time or %, and not reduce less a lvl while you need more points.

doomdragon
16-06-2005, 19:12
at the start i was wondring why i saw almost no mesmers, and in the middle of the game why i saw a fair amount of /me , now I know, because compared to some of the other primary attributes, FC seems pretty worthless...it would already be better if it reduced by a set amount of time or %, and not reduce less a lvl while you need more points.

I play a Me/N and a Mo/Me.

I have a VERY hard time playing my monk because I'm not use to spells taking so GD long to cast.

Knocking a second off a three second spell is beyond useful. I've come across Me/Es who are speed casting nuke bombs. Sure they can only do two or three nukes before they are out of energy, but when you cast a 5 second spell in three seconds. Its that much harder to counter. Then they use Energy Tap to gain the energy back to do it again. (Often times I have to direct my attention to countering these bastards instead of killing the monks in pick up PVP)

Fast Cast is freakishly scary in the right hands.

I like FC for Lingering Curse in PVP. Most monks don't know I'm casting it until they are standing there naked and being torn to shreds.

Do not discount the fast cast! It is just as useful as the other skills and you don't even have to raise it to 12 :happy65:

If you can't figure out how to take advantage of it, that doesn't mean its not useful.

Heck, look what lulu did in HoH with a Fast cast rezzer. :lol:

Gwyndion
16-06-2005, 19:33
I dont use long cast spells, well, except chaos storm and backfire, and I'm a pure mesmer who is in the transgression from domination to illusion since I'm starting to get a clearer view on the game, and have (finally) decided my secondary class...how usefull is FC when you primarely use spells like emptahy, shatter hex, shatter enchantment, conjure phantasms etc?
I can believe a nuker would be good, but I'm more of a DoT and manipulator....

Raw Inc
16-06-2005, 20:11
'ello every1.
I have read some threads and they have been very usefull ty gj every1!

My opinion about fast casting... it owns ;)

When i do a fast pvp char i go mesmer elementalist with heavy fast cast.
You might say hey u will run out of energy if u cast all your spells at once. But then i saw those lovely energy steal spells.
So now i can steal energy and cast spells on the desired target as much as i want :)
now i just gotta find that Mantra of Recovery Elite thingy ( can any1 help me out there please? )

I wanna learn 2 be a great mesmer though and i see fast cast is VERY usefull ( especially if the other team has it! ).

Nobleman Azure
16-06-2005, 20:20
Riiiight, so no ranger will raise his expertise high? No warriors wants high armour piercing? Necros dont want most of their energy back from their summons? Monks hate it that their enchantments heal with divine favour? Elementalists wonder what the use is of having more max energy with 25 energy spells? Sorry for the sarcasm, but all of those skills seem very helpfull for almost any of that classes skills, at the start i was wondring why i saw almost no mesmers, and in the middle of the game why i saw a fair amount of /me , now I know, because compared to some of the other primary attributes, FC seems pretty worthless...it would already be better if it reduced by a set amount of time or %, and not reduce less a lvl while you need more points.


at a cost of so many stat points, no i dont want expertise, strength, soul reaping, en storage, or divine favor high, just like i dont want my FC too high because the cost is ALSO too high but there are some instances in every class that one would actually WANT to have the stat very high.

Rangers who want to use ele resist armors and not druids should be needing expertise
Warriors who load on attack skills instead of the i-dont-know-why-its-underrated skill line tactics
Monks who use spammable low cost low cast time spells will use alot of DF
Air elementalists that are loaded with exhausting spells will want to load up on Energy storage

and finally, those who want to build rapid fire characters or interrupters would want FC pretty high.


besides, fast casting isn't just the only incentive of making a mesmer, its the armor, mesmers has one of the best modifiers on their armor in the game.

arredondo
16-06-2005, 20:34
besides, fast casting isn't just the only incentive of making a mesmer, its the armor, mesmers has one of the best modifiers on their armor in the game.

In what way?

Nobleman Azure
16-06-2005, 20:41
unlike elementalist or most of druid armor which focuses on protection to one element, mesmer armor can either give you extra energy, add 15 armor while casting (which is what you do almost like all the time), or add more protection to physical damage.

While mesmer spells are highly situational their armor isn't that much.

Rizzy
17-06-2005, 11:20
Riiiight, so no ranger will raise his expertise high? No warriors wants high armour piercing? Necros dont want most of their energy back from their summons? Monks hate it that their enchantments heal with divine favour? Elementalists wonder what the use is of having more max energy with 25 energy spells? Sorry for the sarcasm, but all of those skills seem very helpfull for almost any of that classes skills, at the start i was wondring why i saw almost no mesmers, and in the middle of the game why i saw a fair amount of /me , now I know, because compared to some of the other primary attributes, FC seems pretty worthless...it would already be better if it reduced by a set amount of time or %, and not reduce less a lvl while you need more points.
5 in Fast casting is already enough to beat F/S and M/S by 2 seconds.
Try pvping without fast cast and see how fast you can backfire or AOE someone.

Franklin Sauce
22-06-2005, 17:51
I have no doubt as to the potency and usefulness of fast casting in PVP.

However, for PVP, is it not more conducive to damage to be an ele/me, and have the interrupts slightly slower but with the capacity to do much better nuking?

Rekiem
22-06-2005, 18:57
Fast Casting is pretty useless for Mesmer skills since most of them are Hex. They dont benefit from being launched quickly. Their strenght lies in their duration and effect.

Casting Backfire in 1 or 3 seconds won't make the spell stronger.

Its true that its easier to interrupt a 3 seconds backfire but if you want to avoid being interrupted, there is Mantra of Concentration or Resolve for this.

LimDul
22-06-2005, 19:02
That's YOUR opinion Rekiem - the faster you cast your hexes the more you can stack on a single character. And since hexes are removed VERY fast in PvP it's not their duration that matters - what matters is how many you can cast before the triggering action takes place (most likely you will only get one chance to do it right =).

As for the nuking thing: Well - an E/Me will have a deeper energy pool, but a Me/E will cast the spells faster and the Me part usually more than makes up for the not-so-deep energy pool through some energy stealing and gaining skills.

It all depends on your gaming style. I still strongly disagree with people who claim that Fast Casting is useless or even BAD or "not as good as other primary attributes". I think the people that claim this have probably never ever played a GOOD PvP Mesmer (and without the right score in FC probably never will). Probably these are the same people that start the "Why are Mesmers so bad" threads. ;-) There's a difference between a useless attribute and someone who doesn't know how to make good use of an OK attribute.

Also: let's analyze the Mantras vs FC - the mantras use up skill slots that could be used by sth. else. They cost energy (the Mantra of Resolve even more than the Mantra of Concentration) - FC doesn't cost energy. They can be interrupted and apply only for a certain time after which you have to wait for their recharge - Fast Casting applies always. If you still can't see the benefit of FC, then well - don't play a Mesmer, but don't tell people that investing in FC is useless unless they try it for themselves.

Gwyndion
22-06-2005, 19:07
Oh, I can see the use of fast casting, but I'm more of a pve-er, and I think fast casting is more usefull for your secondary then your primary...
whats more usefull, shaving 3 seconds or so of a meteor shower/ressurect, or shaving 1 second of a backfire?

LimDul
22-06-2005, 19:18
Yeah well - Mesmers altogether aren't that much of a PvE class. I mean - they almost exclusively do conditional damage and that is not always useful in PvE, they don't protect your party, they don't kill monsters - they seem to do nothing at all - they can only interrupt, energy drain and stuff like that - but in PvE it's almost useless when you are swarmed by like a dozen creeps all using the same skills etc. - how will interrupting or draining one be of any use?

Everything is different in PvP though where the whole team functions like a big clockwork and everybody has his or her use - interrupting, draining or shutting down a single character in the most crucial moment can make you win or lose a fight.

I'm more of the PvP through PvE school and that's why I've taken a Mesmer primary (well - I got other lvl20 chars as well =) - if I hadn't done so I would be regretting now that I haven't got any primary Mesmer for PvP - and sooner or later everybody starts playing PvP since after a while there's not much to do in PvE (I'm not so much into creating pure PvP chars though).

Rizzy
22-06-2005, 19:27
Fast Casting is pretty useless for Mesmer skills since most of them are Hex. They dont benefit from being launched quickly. Their strenght lies in their duration and effect.

Casting Backfire in 1 or 3 seconds won't make the spell stronger.

Its true that its easier to interrupt a 3 seconds backfire but if you want to avoid being interrupted, there is Mantra of Concentration or Resolve for this.
We also have mantra of presistance, which can lengthen conjure phantasm to even 30 seconds.

Rekiem
22-06-2005, 19:34
That's YOUR opinion Rekiem - the faster you cast your hexes the more you can stack on a single character. And since hexes are removed VERY fast in PvP it's not their duration that matters - what matters is how many you can cast before the triggering action takes place (most likely you will only get one chance to do it right =).

As for the nuking thing: Well - an E/Me will have a deeper energy pool, but a Me/E will cast the spells faster and the Me part usually more than makes up for the not-so-deep energy pool through some energy stealing and gaining skills.

It all depends on your gaming style. I still strongly disagree with people who claim that Fast Casting is useless or even BAD or "not as good as other primary attributes". I think the people that claim this have probably never ever played a GOOD PvP Mesmer (and without the right score in FC probably never will). Probably these are the same people that start the "Why are Mesmers so bad" threads. ;-) There's a difference between a useless attribute and someone who doesn't know how to make good use of an OK attribute.

Also: let's analyze the Mantras vs FC - the mantras use up skill slots that could be used by sth. else. They cost energy (the Mantra of Resolve even more than the Mantra of Concentration) - FC doesn't cost energy. They can be interrupted and apply only for a certain time after which you have to wait for their recharge - Fast Casting applies always. If you still can't see the benefit of FC, then well - don't play a Mesmer, but don't tell people that investing in FC is useless unless they try it for themselves.

Using Fast Cast to stack Hex faster so you can get higher chance to trigger the effect before they are removed.... Is that some kind of joke? Do you take yourself seriously when you say that?

And you also forgot to mention something in your analyzation, Fast Cast take attribute point but you dont need to spend attribute points to use those Mantra.

LimDul
22-06-2005, 19:49
Using Fast Cast to stack Hex faster so you can get higher chance to trigger the effect before they are removed.... Is that some kind of joke? Do you take yourself seriously when you say that?

As a matter of fact I am. You misunderstood me a bit - it's all about effect spiking - when one has more hexes on him/her while performing the triggering action the effect will be much better than if you cast all the hexes with long gaps between them - remember that many of the Mesmer Hexes are triggering once only.

If you don't get the idea of damage/energy drain spikes etc. then you will probably also fail to see why Air Eles are getting more and more popular as compared to e.g. Fire Eles.

And what do I need attribute points for as a pure Mesmer? Raising anything above 12 is quite useless and since concentrating on more than 3 attributes providing that you have only 8 skill slots anyway (so that it doesn't make any sense to put anything in an attribute if you'd be using one linked skill only) is pure nonsense. My Me has 10 FC, 12 Inspiration and 12 Domination (sometimes Illusion instead) when I'm using my pure Mesmer build. What do you suppose should I spend the points I allocated in FC on so that they are invested in a good way?

Geez - from what I see from your replies you have no idea how to play a Mesmer at all - answer me honestly - did you ever play any lvl 20 Mesmer in PvP? Did you try him out with FC and without it? If no, then I don't know what we're talking about. 0_o

Rekiem
22-06-2005, 20:45
Give me an exemple of using Fast Cast to stack Hex in quick succession and explain me why that combo will be better with Fast Casting... without directing insult at me.

Dionysius
22-06-2005, 22:03
As a mesmer who played a decent amount of PvP with various builds, I'd have to agree with LimDul.

Consider an energy denial build. The way I go about is..

Panic
Energy burn
Etherlord
Energy tap
Signet of weariness

The goal of the energy denial build is to drain the monks energy, correct? That means it's ideal to have as little as gap as possible between all these spells. If you don't have any fast cast, the monk would have squeezed out one or two more spells than if you had not. That means by the time you cast energy tap or signet of weariness, you're not really denying him more energy.

Way more effective to not even give him a chance to cast the spells he needs to.

Dionysius
22-06-2005, 22:10
I also laugh at enemy mesmers who obviously haven't invested in fastcasting and tries to cast backfire first. One dose of power block coming up!

Rizzy
23-06-2005, 01:05
I also laugh at enemy mesmers who obviously haven't invested in fastcasting and tries to cast backfire first. One dose of power block coming up!
Well said but hey, if he doesnt know how important 1 second is in battle, it's really our advantage, hope to see him in battle. :)

Nobleman Azure
23-06-2005, 07:21
wow this is still going? lol i gave up long ago in convincing people fast cast is useful, i mean its their loss right? besides if their build is good as those people say it is, there should be nothing to argue about.

wookie919
24-06-2005, 02:38
wow this is still going? lol i gave up long ago in convincing people fast cast is useful, i mean its their loss right? besides if their build is good as those people say it is, there should be nothing to argue about.

EXACTLY. :)

Just about everything to do with fast casting seems to have been mentioned in this thread - if you still can't decide whether fast casting is good or not, I don't think you will ever be able to decide.

I like fast casting better than any other primary attributes.

"1 second spell halved to 0.5 seconds. woohoo~ big deal~"

Well, yeah, it IS a big deal, because my damage output has been doubled with flare spamming. (Flare: 5 energy, 1 second to cast, 0 recharge time.)

(Please don't give me the crap about how spamming flare can easily be countered. Any build can be countered.)

- If you don't like fast casting, don't use it.
- If you like it, use it.
- If you can't decide, this thread should be enough for you to decide.

Cheers, all.

hikarihiyou
24-06-2005, 04:12
http://www.happyhub.com/network/reflex/

Go there and test your reflex speed. That's how long it would take you to interrupt w/ a .25 second interruption spell without fast casting. Then reduce that time by .12 seconds, which is fast casting at level 12 for solely a .25 second spell. Compare the two. There's a world of difference there. In addition, consider the fact that by the time you see a one second spell appear on their health bar, it's probably already in the middle/end of the spell so you have .25 to .4 seconds (TOPS) to respond by reflex. In addition yet again, consider the fact that the icon will probably only be noticable if you are looking at their health bar instead of the battlefield around you and your team mates. This also means you are only focusing on one player (not something a mesmer wants to do). My best reaction time so far has been 0.203 seconds (only while being completely focused on the test). Therefore, I have a window to interrupt of .047-.197 seconds assuming I maintain my best reflexes while looking at what's happening around me. Therefore I have a max time of .15 seconds to respond. Now add the fast casting bonus to that. You almost double your interruption window duration. It will not make a newcomer an expert, but it will make a good person an expert.

Saikyo
24-06-2005, 11:54
Give me an exemple of using Fast Cast to stack Hex in quick succession and explain me why that combo will be better with Fast Casting... without directing insult at me.

I really didn't want to post again on this thread because I think it's getting pretty stupid at this point. Also, I thought my last argument was pretty convincing... but hey whatever. You have asked, and while I'm not the person you asked, I shall respond.

Consider the following (information is taken from gwonline.net website):
Backfire takes 3 seconds to cast
Diversion takes 2 seconds to cast
Fire Storm takes 4 seconds to cast

An elementalist starts casting fire storm and you are a mesmer without any interrupts. (Why don't you have interupts? That's a good question, but for the sake of this example, pretend that you don't.)

With 0 points in Fast Casting you CANNOT cast both Backfire AND Diverson on the elementalist before he can finish casting the spell, it's just NOT POSSIBLE.

Now put 10 points in Fast Casting as someone has mentioned that their build uses.
Backfire now takes 1.95 seconds to cast
Diversion now takes 1.30 seconds to cast
Total cast time is 3.25 seconds.
You have 0.75 seconds worth of reaction time to judge that you want to cast this hex combo.

Guess what? Now you can stack BOTH hexes before the firestorm goes off. Not only does the elementalist take the damage from backfire, but also he can't cast the spell again for a much longer time even if the backfire is removed.

This has been an example, I hope it will help enlighten you.

arredondo
25-06-2005, 05:13
Aftercast of spells is .75 amigo. No time for both in any circumstance with that FC amount.

Saikyo
25-06-2005, 07:38
Aftercast of spells is .75 amigo. No time for both in any circumstance with that FC amount.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with "aftercast" where can I find information on this effect?

And if that does defeat my example, then just sub out fire storm for meteor shower (5 seconds). That accounts for two 0.75 "aftercast" lags.

Nobleman Azure
25-06-2005, 09:13
without even going technical,

the sooner you get the spell done, the sooner you can run away from that Warrior

the sooner you get the spell done, the sooner you can use a different spell to control a different character