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TheSock
04-06-2005, 15:16
OK, so there I was. In the HALL OF HEROES. I was awe-struck, then I saw this:

http://photobucket.com/albums/y294/FLARLARFAR/?action=view&current=gw068.jpg

(Sorry for the horrible image size. Might want to save it somewhere to get a better look, but if you strain your eyes enough you'll see at least three dozen bone minion/horror/whatever names towered up on the screen.)

Yeah, so what gives? The guy (a necro, aptly named Lulu the Monk...) that was doing that seemed to be exploiting a single corpse, endlessly raising those little boney bastards from it.

Is he hacking? Exploiting? Is there something I don't know? How do you combat five thousand bonies?

Please fill me in, comments/questions/etc.... thanks.

Taunted
04-06-2005, 15:20
Can't seee sh!t. Could u possibly save it in another format like PNG or JPG and make it a decent resolution?

TheSock
04-06-2005, 15:21
Can't seee sh!t. Could u possibly save it in another format like PNG or JPG and make it a decent resolution?

Yeah... see, I'm a complete imagine hosting retard. I'll give it a try, though. :happy34:

EDIT: OK, it shouldn't be TOO bad, now... Still pretty small, though.

Seductive
04-06-2005, 15:33
lulu always uses little "bugs" to win HoH.

Incognito2me
04-06-2005, 15:34
Make it bigger. Save it as a jpg or something, and make the dimensions normal. I can barely make them out.

TheSock
04-06-2005, 15:37
Haha! Fixed it!

New link up.

Aire
04-06-2005, 15:38
Not really - its just the group are formed of people from top guilds like PuG, Fi, BE, TF, etc... They all know what they're doing, so its very easy for his group to win them

/Aire :)

Hades the Terrible
04-06-2005, 15:41
Not really - its just the group are formed of people from top guilds like PuG, Fi, BE, TF, etc... They all know what they're doing, so its very easy for his group to win them

/Aire :)

However, they always use exploits. Like...stacking the same enchant on the ghostly hero :|

CombatDave
04-06-2005, 15:46
Just lame tactics like in every other game imo. But if enough people abuse it'll get nurfed i guess.

Better luck next time Scarz.

Mortimer
04-06-2005, 15:47
Hm, I count round 70 of those things. That's some kind of exploit Lulu's got going..

majoho
04-06-2005, 16:06
I guess it could be possible for a n/mo to raise horrors and keeping them alive.

dgwnitro
04-06-2005, 16:09
you still need corpses enough to get all those man :s

hireath
04-06-2005, 16:15
ive never seen anything like that...

looks like exploits to me, unless the minions have been stacked and kept alive over numerous rounds. which would be bullsh*t in my opinion.

lvl 18 bone fiends... f*ck me...

if you had god mode you wouldnt get anywhere near the altar with all of them.

Tini
04-06-2005, 16:58
JEEEZZZ! 70(and still counting) lvl 18 bone horror/fiends!!!!!!! :eek:

Jolithlightbane
04-06-2005, 17:10
Actually I have level 18 horrors and fiends myself. They are my babies ^_^

But yes I would like to see this thing nerfed...I cant stand it when someone has a bigger army than me...

Jahoclave
04-06-2005, 17:20
After all, look at how long it took Lulu to find a new little bs trick to win again. After they nerfed that aura she was gone for a little over a week.

Creshnire
04-06-2005, 17:20
:shock: thats crazy definitely exploiting

Zero
04-06-2005, 17:24
Might not be a bug, there's a nice called Vengance to continue to create corpses as well as an enchantment that does the same and can be cancelled immediately. Just requires the mana and enough heals to keep the minions alive.

Nerfed
04-06-2005, 17:28
better have more then one person with vengance since it's 60 second cool down

wounder if it took them 1 hour 10 minute to get 70 hehe

Hurin66
04-06-2005, 17:32
Might not be a bug, there's a nice called Vengance to continue to create corpses as well as an enchantment that does the same and can be cancelled immediately. Just requires the mana and enough heals to keep the minions alive.

Veangence? what a joke it has a 60 second cool down time. and unyieliding aura is 45 seconds cool down. So using veangence it would take you 1 hour and 10 minutes to do 70, and its almost impossible to keep that many alive for an hour since degen increases over time.

Sieglinde Leoncouer
04-06-2005, 17:35
It is obviously has to be an exploit, as I seriously doubt AN ever intended someone to get themselves 70+ bone minions. What I find funny are people who think people who continually abuse loopholes to win are good players. A good player is someone who wins and doesn't need to cheat to do it. Winning the HoH repeatedly by abusing coding flaws in the game doesn't make you a winner, it makes you a child in an adult's body.

hahnsoo
04-06-2005, 17:36
Unyielding Aura? That's the Elite sustained version.

EDIT: Just have a necro kill himself using Sacrifice magic and some sort of health degen, then summon from his corpse. Use Unyielding Aura to raise, then dispel it. Another corpse, so summon again. Wash, rinse, repeat, as long as you have energy.

Aire
04-06-2005, 18:05
Ok - You can keep bone minions alive for an infinte amout of time with Verata's Sacrifice and Arcane Echo and Echo. That would be able to keep minions around for a significant amount of time, and since degen cannot go past 10 - they'll have no degen at all. If they need a health boost, Blood of the Master can keep them alive. Now, if they used a rezmer (fast casting rezzing mesmer) and a few necromancers with blood is power - they could create an army of say 20 very fast. Energizing winds would lower the cost, and soul reaping would cover anything else over as the bodies give energy.

Its not an exploit, just well thought out.

Oh, and LuLu's a he :P

/Aire :)

Zvixo
04-06-2005, 18:07
Unyielding Aura has too long a recharge time.
A fast casting mesmer using Resurrect would be more like it.
Resurrect has no recharge time.
Good thing it doesn't have an attribute, or those items that improve casting time would be even more effective.

It's possible to have tons of minions before the match has even started.

Add in a second necro with death nova, and all you need is taste of death to send in a horde of minions to bomb the enemy before they even reach you.

It's easy, all you need is a nice team that is actually open to making that build.

To counter it, multiple verata's auras will do.
Just use the same build if you want to beat it, then the winner will be the one capable of spamming faster.

Navid
04-06-2005, 18:07
Aire, by anychance that your Lulu?

DeadUserTyping
04-06-2005, 18:10
Wow thats SOME army. I can only imagine.

AmadeusX
04-06-2005, 18:12
OK, so there I was. In the HALL OF HEROES. I was awe-struck, then I saw this:

http://photobucket.com/albums/y294/FLARLARFAR/?action=view&current=gw068.jpg

(Sorry for the horrible image size. Might want to save it somewhere to get a better look, but if you strain your eyes enough you'll see at least three dozen bone minion/horror/whatever names towered up on the screen.)

Yeah, so what gives? The guy (a necro, aptly named Lulu the Monk...) that was doing that seemed to be exploiting a single corpse, endlessly raising those little boney bastards from it.

Is he hacking? Exploiting? Is there something I don't know? How do you combat five thousand bonies?

Please fill me in, comments/questions/etc.... thanks.

Use Judge's insight, then Spam Barrage.. They all die.

Then their team is screwed.

-Proud Member of the HNF-

Zvixo
04-06-2005, 18:14
Use Judge's insight, then Spam Barrage.. They all die.

Then their team is screwed.

-Proud Member of the HNF-

Why would you want them dead? Just steal them. Much more fun.

AmadeusX
04-06-2005, 18:15
Why would you want them dead? Just steal them. Much more fun.

Eh, you could do that too.

But its so much fun to one hit 6 undead at the same time!!

-Proud Member of the HNF-

GammaRay
04-06-2005, 18:16
Verata's Sacrifice works on all allied minions, so other people could cast it to keep them alive as well to take care of the cooldown & life sacrificing problem. I've heard (but not confirmed) that minions have a degen cap of 20 instead of 10, as some people have reported using Sacrifice and having their minions still degenerate. I'll have to test it out for myself someday.

I suppose multiple people could use Vengeance, considering the big cool-down time it has.

I have a feeling it's not an outright exploit like the Balthazar's Aura was, but an extremely clever use of forced-death and rapid summoning.

But minions have really crappy AL...I think that if they're all clustered together like that, Meteor and Fireballs from a bunch of elementalists would knock them right down. I've hit entire mobs of 20+ monsters with a single well-placed fireball before. Meteor's AOE range is a little smaller.

salaboB
04-06-2005, 18:17
I can see how it might be done...

Not exactly a bug, but likely an exploit (Something unintended by the developers that's more powerful than they meant anything to be). Have to test some things to find out for sure if it would work or not.

GammaRay
04-06-2005, 18:29
I really hope that they don't break out the nerf bat too hard on summoning necros because of this. I play a summoner like most other people -- if I'm LUCKY I can get 8 or so Bone Minions, sometimes 5 or more Bone Horrors. On a few occasions I was able to get about 14 Bone Horrors with the help of things like the Maguuma waters and the big +3 regen rings in some of the Kryta missions (and they died almost as soon as I left it). Still...70+? That's crazy!

Hurin66
04-06-2005, 18:30
Ok - You can keep bone minions alive for an infinte amout of time with Verata's Sacrifice and Arcane Echo and Echo. That would be able to keep minions around for a significant amount of time, and since degen cannot go past 10 - they'll have no degen at all. If they need a health boost, Blood of the Master can keep them alive. Now, if they used a rezmer (fast casting rezzing mesmer) and a few necromancers with blood is power - they could create an army of say 20 very fast. Energizing winds would lower the cost, and soul reaping would cover anything else over as the bodies give energy.

Its not an exploit, just well thought out.

Oh, and LuLu's a he :P

/Aire :)

you do realize that they need to get the corpses to? i mean sure you could possibly make the build do that without exploits, but raising all those minions takes a while, long enough to get slaugthered by a good team, if 3 or more of your team members are built around this minion idea.

As for people wondering how this would be done legitemtly , basically you would have a necro with lots of life sacrifice skills, he would kill himself, res and repeat, or something like that. The problem is it would take to long to make this work, like i said.

Also res is a highly unlikely solution, since any skilled team would target the fast cast ressing mesmer first after noticing what they were doing, then kill the necro (lulu the monk) and only then kill the healers.

Im not sure if veretas aura would do anything vs them, since given that they made their build around it they probably expected such a counter and have at least to people with aura to take the minions back.

Zvixo
04-06-2005, 18:59
you do realize that they need to get the corpses to? i mean sure you could possibly make the build do that without exploits, but raising all those minions takes a while, long enough to get slaugthered by a good team, if 3 or more of your team members are built around this minion idea.

As for people wondering how this would be done legitemtly , basically you would have a necro with lots of life sacrifice skills, he would kill himself, res and repeat, or something like that. The problem is it would take to long to make this work, like i said.

Also res is a highly unlikely solution, since any skilled team would target the fast cast ressing mesmer first after noticing what they were doing, then kill the necro (lulu the monk) and only then kill the healers.

Im not sure if veretas aura would do anything vs them, since given that they made their build around it they probably expected such a counter and have at least to people with aura to take the minions back.

The thing with this build is that, you can already have a significant amount of fiends before your opponent even reaches you.

It takes 3 seconds to die with BiP.
It takes 4 seconds to rez with a fast caster.
During that 4 seconds, a fiend has been summoned.

So you can have a fiend every 7 seconds. I assure you, it doesn't take long at all.

Aire
04-06-2005, 19:10
Aire, by anychance that your Lulu?

Nope, he's an old friend I play with sometimes :) He's from BE and i'm from TF


you do realize that they need to get the corpses to? i mean sure you could possibly make the build do that without exploits, but raising all those minions takes a while, long enough to get slaugthered by a good team, if 3 or more of your team members are built around this minion idea.

I do know - I meant for the BiP guys to slay themselves repeatedly. If you used BiP, Blood of the Master,Blood Ritual and Blood Renewal you can slay yourself very fast, and they can be reused.
A rezmer with Restore Life (see above) can rez them in about 2 seconds with 98% energy, so they can kill themselves again. If they are used, its fine.

Remember, on average in the HOH you have 3 minutes before a team reaches you, so you can get a large army up.


I am defending him because I don't want a community to hate all good players because they think they're exploiting skills

/Aire :)

salaboB
04-06-2005, 19:18
I am defending him because I don't want a community to hate all good players because they think they're exploiting skills

He's exploiting skills.

I hate to break it to you, but he's getting around the intentions of the coders by amassing a huge army before he's even in contact with the enemy...and that's definitely not how they set up the necro summoning skills to be used. Defend all you want, he's not winning by pure skill but by tricks.

Now, I did go test unyielding aura to see if that might be how it's being done...and I can safely say it's not :P However, I did learn something very interesting about unyielding aura (And yes I reported it, however considering skills like Grenth's balance are buggy and still haven't been fixed, let me describe it...I'm pretty sure if people start actually using a buggy skill ArenaNet will fix it fast)

Unyielding aura currently does a permanent revive, with full life and energy. It costs 5 energy, 3 second cast time, 45 second reuse, and (Here's the buggy part) doesn't put an enchant on the target or a -1 energy/enchant binding on the caster. Deaths after being revived with it don't incur extra death penalty either.

So everything is working right, except that once you're revived with it there's no way to kill you except by the way you'd have to kill someone who was revived with a proper resurrect spell, no way for the reviver to release (And kill the revivee), and no penalty for the reviver to maintain the revivee. Sounds like a res signet replacement to me (At least until it gets fixed, here's to hoping they'll fix it fast!), for those of us who aren't currently carrying an elite but want a fast, powerful resurrect to use in the arena.

Aire
04-06-2005, 19:26
I hate to break it to you, but he's getting around the intentions of the coders by amassing a huge army before he's even in contact with the enemy...and that's definately not how they set up the necro summoning skills to be used. Defend all you want, he's not winning by pure skill but by tricks.

I'm not being rude - but do you really think that all of the devs combined wouldn't have thought of necro's killing themselves with sacrifice skills to rez minions. Its the same as mesmers using ressurect skills. Do you class using mesmers to fastcast a rez is cheating, because its not how the Dev's developed ressurecting? Its a pretty common idea, i've seen it used in BWE's past in GvG's. The act of combining them certainly is interesting, but yes is counterable.

Its combining specialist abilities from one class to another for a better output. If people shouldn't be able to do that, then remove the sacrifice. Otherwise you can't stop them.

On the Unyielding Aura thing, I believe they die if you remove the enchantment, even if there isn't one displayed but i'm not too sure about that....

That is certainly buggy though, as it Mist Form, which doesn't defend against ranged damage, just Melee :S

/Aire :)

Cartigan
04-06-2005, 19:28
I'm not being rude - but do you really think that all of the devs combined wouldn't have thought of necro's killing themselves with sacrifice skills to rez minions. Its the same as mesmers using ressurect skills. Do you class using mesmers to fastcast a rez is cheating, because its not how the Dev's developed ressurecting? Its a pretty common idea, i've seen it used in BWE's past in GvG's. The act of combining them certainly is interesting, but yes is counterable.
No, thats not how they devleoped resurrect, HOWEVER, that IS how the developed fast casting

Aire
04-06-2005, 19:29
HOWEVER, that IS how the developed fast casting

And that is how they developed Sacrificing. To lose health to give yourself a bonus.

And remember, part of his team is going into battle with 60 DP, unless they could spam vengance :S So its not all one sided.

/Aire :)

Unionjack
04-06-2005, 19:34
He's exploiting skills.

I hate to break it to you, but he's getting around the intentions of the coders by amassing a huge army before he's even in contact with the enemy...and that's definitely not how they set up the necro summoning skills to be used. Defend all you want, he's not winning by pure skill but by tricks.


Hate to break it to you, but tricks are the only measure of pure skill in this game. Coming up with creative multi-character "exploits" is how you win.

Mockguy
04-06-2005, 20:08
WEll, there is a time before all teams go against each other, that time is for your team to do what they want, if making fugly undead babies to augment their number so they win by sheer force, then it's a strategy, a poor one, but still a stragtegy.

and no, skill measurement is not by creative exploit, that's just a way to cheat

it would be a exploit if this lulu done it himself, but if it takes 2 necros and a rezplayer, then it is the combination of skills to achieve this

SonOfRah
04-06-2005, 20:15
frozen soil would own this....

to an extent at least

Banegrivm
04-06-2005, 20:29
I'm not being rude - but do you really think that all of the devs combined wouldn't have thought of necro's killing themselves with sacrifice skills to rez minions. Its the same as mesmers using ressurect skills. Do you class using mesmers to fastcast a rez is cheating, because its not how the Dev's developed ressurecting? Its a pretty common idea, i've seen it used in BWE's past in GvG's. The act of combining them certainly is interesting, but yes is counterable.

Its combining specialist abilities from one class to another for a better output. If people shouldn't be able to do that, then remove the sacrifice. Otherwise you can't stop them.

On the Unyielding Aura thing, I believe they die if you remove the enchantment, even if there isn't one displayed but i'm not too sure about that....

That is certainly buggy though, as it Mist Form, which doesn't defend against ranged damage, just Melee :S

/Aire :)


From what I've seen thus far, there is ALOT the devs haven't seen or thought of. To be honest, I don't think this game was really planned or thought out all that well sorry to say. Just look at the state of the game as it made its transition from beta to release. They almost look like two completely different games only with a common backdrop.

Oh and as to the using tricks/exploits that was brought up later...if you really need to go that route, that just proves you have no skill in a game that allegedly requires skill to win.

Oh and the whole point of necromancy and raising the dead is you do it to other corpses. Kind of hard to animate yourself if you're alive don't you think? Aire he may be your friend and thats great, but I don't consider exploiters good players. If he was really that good he wouldn't need to resort to exploits.

I call that bluff, secondarily he's got a repuation for it from his lil trick prior with Balthazar's Aura. Cheap and sleezy.

I've been in Hall of Heroes with my guildmates a number of times now.

At the time it takes for a team to spawn, claim the altar, camp it, etc.

There is no possible way within the time it takes to run from a spawn point to the center to have 70 minions up and running. Looking at that screen cap even with an elapsed 6 minutes, take into consideration that one group runs or holds the altar, groups run in, there are engagements, casting times, skill recharge times, etc. It's just not going to happen.

Maybe its possible with multiple necros, maybe, but I personally would have to see it to believe it. In theory I'm not a buyer of that farm.

I don't understand why Arena Net doesn't ban all these people who constantly exploit the game time and time again.

This game was awesome in beta, its a shame the state the game has fallen into.

Ramahi Lightleaf
04-06-2005, 20:45
that many "pets" is just not natural. I've won a few rounds in the tombs solely because of my brother's love of his "pets" (he is a summoning necro and he absolutely loves his little pets). At one point we had 14+ of them, but this was over the course of fighting and deaths occuring on both sides (his pets were made from ours guys and their guys). our 2 monks had a hard time keeping those 14+ pets alive for too long (he was healing them as well), so I don't have a clue in hell how you could keep over 70 of them alive for too long, or long enough to amass an army that size. Seriously..you have 70+ guys to try to keep alive and I'm willing to bet they would start dropping real fast.

Mcdeath
04-06-2005, 20:46
Hmmm.

As a professional programmer I have to step in real quick.

Aside from the simplest of programs it's nearly impossible to predict beforehand how people will use software. You can try and predict it, but I can assure you that you'll miss about 30% of what is going on. It's called the Law of Unintended Consequences. And it can basically be summed up as "users will break anything".

And I program business software and not games. My users at least aren't intentionally trying to figure out ways to break my programs. They seem to do so with regularity anyways, but at least they're not trying.

It really is much harder than it seems. Especially when there are so many aspects and variables that can interact with each other.

Deaddocus
04-06-2005, 20:57
Let's bring in the Magic The Gathering connection again?

In Magic they spend years on building, testing and play testing a set and when they finally launch, players still find exploits. Exploits no one in the play testing group ever thought off. And it happened with a lot of cards, trust me.

Now, as people /know/ there is a minion-spamming strat, they will start to work on defences against that.

Verata's Aura, Verata's Gaze, smiting prayers, area damage spells.

It isn't that hard to break this and level 18 horrors are possible indeed. Just get the right gear together. My minions are level 14 and I only have death magic 12 atm. Scar pattern (+1), major (+2) and minor rune (+1), and you're there. That's if you can combine the runes, ;). I wouldn't be surprised with level 20 minions.

Aire
04-06-2005, 21:08
I give up....

Its not animating yourself, its animating others - which is exactly what necromancers were feared for (It was also a quest from Yaks Bend)


At the time it takes for a team to spawn, claim the altar, camp it, etc.

Considering the fact that they don't usually fight until a certain point in time, and they could have 3 people killing themselves and 2 summoners, It is a reasonably acceptable idea.

However, if you want to label these people cheaters, then thats fine with me - you can label them what you want - but Arena.net shouldn't fix it, because it isn't a bug or anything, just using two or more sets of skills together intelligently.

That Balthazar's exploit was a bug though, and a lame one at that.

Anyway, there's no point me arguing this - Believe what you want to believe.

Oh, you can't combine runes. 18 minions are 16 death. There is no way to get it higher

/Aire :)

KriaSeries
04-06-2005, 21:11
my friend says this pic is photoshopped, has any1 actually seen this done? :happy05:

jesterbot
04-06-2005, 21:22
How can you people call this a cheat? It's not stacking auras, it's not moonwalking through gates in missions, or anything like that. It's using a combination of specific player builds to accomplish something greater than any one could do on their own. It's using skills in exactly (or near to exact) the way they were meant to be used. How different is that from any of you that make very specific "combo" builds in your characters? It just takes that combo from a specific player to a team of players.

Yeah, if I saw that army, I'd be in shock for a day or so. But instead of blaming everything else for my failure, I'd commend them for coming up with a better strategy.

As others in this post have mentioned, there are counters. So it's not invulnerable. Just like nearly every other "killer-combo" in the game...



~jesterbot

MisterP
04-06-2005, 21:24
I seriously doubt 70+ minions was ever intended by the devs. That's an exploit, whether you want to call it skill or not.

ColdwaveKid
04-06-2005, 21:25
The trend it seems is for people to wish for nerfage of speciality builds. Many want both this is the air based builds nerfed.

People need to see with all speciality builds, they focus on one thing and one thing only to win, and this is why they work so well. Instead of complaining you cannot beat them rushing in blindly, talk to your team and create your own counter.

jesterbot
04-06-2005, 21:29
Oh and as to the using tricks/exploits that was brought up later...if you really need to go that route, that just proves you have no skill in a game that allegedly requires skill to win.


No skill? I gotta say, it takes a certain amount of genius (or research on forums at least) to be able to come up with the combo necessary to raise an army like that. It spans multiple professions, multiple characters, and lots of skills.

In fact, the people that posed their hypothesis' on how one could even accomplish that shows just the same kind of complex thinking. You're given a challenge (build an army of undead very fast), a ruleset (the skills and professions as defined by GW), and you guys came up with solutions...

Very impressive! Now give this LuLu character the same kind of respect (even if grudgingly so) for doing exactly that.

In my eyes, this is no cheat. Yeah, if it gets nerfed, he'll go on to make another legit combo and people will complain, etc. I think it's awesome work.

How different is it from the strong fragility + weak rodgorts + fire weapon type of combos? They both require planning, skill to execute, detailed knowledge of skills, etc - the only difference is scale of execution here.

Cartigan
04-06-2005, 21:31
Unless the skills are fast recharging there is no way to get that many, they won't last long enoguh to raise another one unless the whole party is monks and expending all their energy to keep them alive

Aire
04-06-2005, 21:32
Arcane Echo with Verata's Sacrifice :)

/Aire :)

XxCougarxX
04-06-2005, 21:39
...Note to self: Pray I don't fihgt Lulu in HoH
But seriously, Jesterbot has a completely valid point. Taking the time to figure out something like that requires skill and intellegence across several people. Pulling off something like this would no way in hell be a one-man operation. And so what if he's using the skills to his advantage, he's using them like their suppose to be...in a sense. So instead of killing the enemy and animating their corpses, he's knocking off he's allies and putting their bodies to work. I say bravo for that, and my Dwayna have mercy on my soul should I have to fight it. As another sidenote, the computer programming law has been brought up, as has Magic the Gathering. I'll go from personal experience and add in D&D. Considering how many books their are (hell, I personally am looking at 30+ books) with countless feats and spells (skills in GW terms) You wouldn't believe some of the crazy things that get cooked up. You look at it at first and say "How in holy $!@% did you do that? You're cheating aren't you?" But then you strip it down, look at the bare bones, then put it back together piece by piece, and then you figure out how it was put together, completely legal I might add. So stop ragging on Lulu cause he and several others found an incredible combo. And should this get nerf, I personally can't wait to see what he's gonna have in store for us next.

XxCougarxX: The blind marksman (at least legally)

Master Thumbaturge
04-06-2005, 22:02
Okay, with that I lay down this. There are 70+ skills for each class, why in the hell do some people think there will not be a ton of "Oh My Gaud" effects people can do if they use there brain.

I don't think the dev's necessarily thought of this, but they probably thought that many such things would eventually happen. Given time, people would discover new and intriguing ways to do things.

New/Intriguing = Longevity

Lulu = Johnny

I'm sure many a Johnnies out there praise HIM heavily.

(F7)

>,<

Bruiser of Minoc
04-06-2005, 22:18
The necro wont have a -60 dp. If he keeps dieing in the same spot he will only incur the first -15 dp.

Linea
04-06-2005, 22:20
I don't understand why there isn't a limitation making it so you cannot die from freindly blood, disease, etc. That would solve this problem. However, it would create the problem of a Necro with Zero hit points sacrificing life indefinitely till someone did ONE damage to them.

AnarkiNet
04-06-2005, 22:23
you guys are missing a critical point here:

if the devs never intended for someone to have 70+ minions, they would have coded in a cap. its not very hard to do.



if ( number of minions controlled by player >= x ) {
stop spell from casting;
}


very simple. (obviously thats not real code, lol, but its just an example)

Banegrivm
04-06-2005, 22:26
No skill? I gotta say, it takes a certain amount of genius (or research on forums at least) to be able to come up with the combo necessary to raise an army like that. It spans multiple professions, multiple characters, and lots of skills.

In fact, the people that posed their hypothesis' on how one could even accomplish that shows just the same kind of complex thinking. You're given a challenge (build an army of undead very fast), a ruleset (the skills and professions as defined by GW), and you guys came up with solutions...

Very impressive! Now give this LuLu character the same kind of respect (even if grudgingly so) for doing exactly that.

In my eyes, this is no cheat. Yeah, if it gets nerfed, he'll go on to make another legit combo and people will complain, etc. I think it's awesome work.

How different is it from the strong fragility + weak rodgorts + fire weapon type of combos? They both require planning, skill to execute, detailed knowledge of skills, etc - the only difference is scale of execution here.


Thats some real comedy. I give respect where respect is given, and I'll be damned if I give any to an exploiter, period. Nuff said.

Even with Archane Echo and Verata's, I don't see the 70 plus corpses coming up and running like that.

Even with the example Aire gave, and such, you still have to commit suicide essentialy or die.

You'll notice their group is strategicaly positioned on the altar already.

And what were the rest of the groups doing all that time over the course of the elapsed six minutes?

Sorry, but I'm not interested in that real estate.

I also don't buy into "well obviously the devs wanted this to happen" or "how could they have missed this?"

You seem to forget, the devs have missed alot already. Note the Balthazar's Aura exploit that was recently fixed as one example alone.

Developers are also people, and no one sees everything one hundred percent of the time. Regardless of how good they may be, they're just as fallable and prone to mistakes as anyone else, even when it comes to design.

Sieglinde Leoncouer
04-06-2005, 22:30
...Note to self: Pray I don't fihgt Lulu in HoH
But seriously, Jesterbot has a completely valid point. Taking the time to figure out something like that requires skill and intellegence across several people. Pulling off something like this would no way in hell be a one-man operation. And so what if he's using the skills to his advantage, he's using them like their suppose to be...in a sense. So instead of killing the enemy and animating their corpses, he's knocking off he's allies and putting their bodies to work. I say bravo for that, and my Dwayna have mercy on my soul should I have to fight it. As another sidenote, the computer programming law has been brought up, as has Magic the Gathering. I'll go from personal experience and add in D&D. Considering how many books their are (hell, I personally am looking at 30+ books) with countless feats and spells (skills in GW terms) You wouldn't believe some of the crazy things that get cooked up. You look at it at first and say "How in holy $!@% did you do that? You're cheating aren't you?" But then you strip it down, look at the bare bones, then put it back together piece by piece, and then you figure out how it was put together, completely legal I might add. So stop ragging on Lulu cause he and several others found an incredible combo. And should this get nerf, I personally can't wait to see what he's gonna have in store for us next.

XxCougarxX: The blind marksman (at least legally)

And if what I did was against the spirit of the game, the DM would make me pay for it. In GW there is no DM monitoring every event, and its not an easy manner to just fix every little exploit thought of. Even fixing the exploits might open up new ones.

What Lulu did wasn't really all that spectacular. From what I've seen from the ingame knowledge from many posters, like that SonofRa person, I have no doubt they could come up with exploits if they put their mind to it. Instead, they seem to choose to focus on playing fair and sharing what they've learned. When they win, they win because of skillful use of game mechanics that everyone should know about, not because they found some silly bug or design feature. And THAT was what guildwars was supposed to be all about.

SmokeNMirrorZ
04-06-2005, 22:31
Counter discovered.

Well 2 actually.

1. Firestorm the front minion. .. SPLAT, i think any aoe would work but i know that one brutalized em.
2. or, "edge of extinction" for 5 seconds, they all POP and you dont even have to get close..

Suddenly they're 7 vs 8 with a death necro who has no minions... so 6 vs 8.

I hardly consider this an exploit.. might slow you down for 30 seconds while you remove the army if your not an all warrior group (DOH, dont do that) then they're a man down. Its just cool impresssive use of skills on a team level. Hardly oerpowered.

As for the devs missing things, i count 6 code bug fixes.. (not stat balance change) on fringe combos out of 450+ skills.. i'd say they're doing damned well.

Galavorn
04-06-2005, 22:37
Thats some real comedy. I give respect where respect is given, and I'll be damned if I give any to an exploiter, period. Nuff said.

Even with Archane Echo and Verata's, I don't see the 70 plus corpses coming up and running like that.

Even with the example Aire gave, and such, you still have to commit suicide essentialy or die.

You'll notice their group is strategicaly positioned on the altar already.

And what were the rest of the groups doing all that time over the course of the elapsed six minutes?

Sorry, but I'm not interested in that real estate.

What you're saying is similar to me pointing to a pigeon, telling someone that it is in fact a pigeon, and them saying "Nope, it's not a pigeon, I don't believe it."

saeben
04-06-2005, 22:41
IF he is not using an exploit then that totally rocks. I imagine that the right team with monks and necs would be able to create a small army in no time. :worship:

Now imagine if they used minions they would have 140 lvl 12s running around

So stop cryin about it....

s p i r i t u a l
04-06-2005, 22:45
i would laugh if the author has just used photoshop and edited the image...

Navid
04-06-2005, 22:50
I give up....

Its not animating yourself, its animating others - which is exactly what necromancers were feared for (It was also a quest from Yaks Bend)



Considering the fact that they don't usually fight until a certain point in time, and they could have 3 people killing themselves and 2 summoners, It is a reasonably acceptable idea.

However, if you want to label these people cheaters, then thats fine with me - you can label them what you want - but Arena.net shouldn't fix it, because it isn't a bug or anything, just using two or more sets of skills together intelligently.

That Balthazar's exploit was a bug though, and a lame one at that.

Anyway, there's no point me arguing this - Believe what you want to believe.

Oh, you can't combine runes. 18 minions are 16 death. There is no way to get it higher

/Aire :)

Didn't you say the balthazars aura was a perfectly acceptable tactic and people should stop whining about it? :/

Ghostlord
04-06-2005, 22:51
Oh joy,Lulu the exploit found a new toy...happy times ahead.

Jahoclave
04-06-2005, 22:54
Still, having your team commit endless suicide is not something I would call respectable. Granted it may have taken some intelligence to think it up, but it also takes intelligence to blackmail yourself into office, turn the populas of your country against a religion, and take over most of europe; but nobody says we should respect Hitler for his achomplishments which took intelligence to do.

At least I can still respect Koreans who really know what they're doing and have solid repsectable builds to win with. None of this all air magic crap either.

wondersmith
04-06-2005, 22:55
"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." -- H. G. Wells

I have a basic problem with the claim that this or any other clever playing strategy is an "exploit". To the best of my knowledge, no RPG developer has ever defined in precise quantitative terms exactly how well we're allowed to play its games. And it is unfair to accuse someone of breaking a rule that they have no way of knowing they are breaking! This ideal goes back at least as far as Hammurabi's Code, and it is an ideal to which I subscribe.

Combinations of professions and skills that yield outstanding results are the hallmarks of intelligent and creative gameplay. The master of these minions conceived a clever plan, then cooperated with his or her friends to bring it to fruition. That's what we humans do when we're at our best. Empowering players to use their brains and work together is what separates RPGs from mindless zap games.

I salute the group who made these minions. If ArenaNet feels otherwise, their honorable course of action is to modify the game, not ban players for breaking a vague, ill-defined rule.

saeben
04-06-2005, 23:24
Still, having your team commit endless suicide is not something I would call respectable. Granted it may have taken some intelligence to think it up, but it also takes intelligence to blackmail yourself into office, turn the populas of your country against a religion, and take over most of europe; but nobody says we should respect Hitler for his achomplishments which took intelligence to do.

At least I can still respect Koreans who really know what they're doing and have solid repsectable builds to win with. None of this all air magic crap either.

define solid respectable build. what you consider a respectable build may be an exploit to someone else

ScotiaAudrin
04-06-2005, 23:26
I only read the first two pages of this. But to put it simple.

16 death magic making them high level. superior rune of death.
Verata's Sacrifice, Blood of the master
Healing Spring (RANGER)
Troll Unguent (Ranger)

Keeps them and you alive non stop. And in a good group that is killing everyone. you have the first part with a few monsters you can summon from. They carry over into the 2nd part. You kill a lot of players you carry them over to 3rd part. Kill even more players. welcome to defending the shrine. And your army of undeath.

Jahoclave
04-06-2005, 23:28
They generally have a balanced team, that is hard to beat no matter what you throw at them. They don't pull sided bull like suiciding necros. Like it's already been pointed out, if you go in with the intent to beat it, it's easy to do. But most pickup groups won't be doing that. And after the whole thing with the aura, pulling a second shady thing is definitly not something I can respect. They can do it all they like, but I'm still going to say it's low, and requires very little actual fighting skill.

Galen Roberts
04-06-2005, 23:28
I see a lot of scrubs in this thread. Anyone complaining that this is an "exploit" is doomed to failure in competetive PvP. Learn to play to win.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

Digital Bath
04-06-2005, 23:33
I see a lot of scrubs in this thread. Anyone complaining that this is an "exploit" is doomed to failure in competetive PvP. Learn to play to win.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

Scrubs? What year are we in, 1999? Honestly, if they are using an exploit to win, then that's just what it is. If you are talking down to us, then you are one of the people who like to exploit and should probably shut up.

Aire
04-06-2005, 23:34
At least I can still respect Koreans who really know what they're doing and have solid repsectable builds to win with. None of this all air magic crap either.

whaaa? lol KOR were the ones who DEVELOPED the air magic style. (Spiking)


Didn't you say the balthazars aura was a perfectly acceptable tactic and people should stop whining about it? :/

Ya I did - Evidently that wasn't how it was supposed to be played and was nerfed :p What I believe was acceptable (ie. Stacking enchantments) wasn't, so they stopped it. To follow that i also reported the essence bond stacking (which worked)


You'll notice their group is strategicaly positioned on the altar already.

They have to win the HoH first so yeh, its not any different......


The necro wont have a -60 dp. If he keeps dieing in the same spot he will only incur the first -15 dp.

If he kills himself he gains DP no matter what


Still, its people's opinions, thats fine - if they think they're cheating then they are, you can't change that. The point is you have to think like them to beat them. Each intuitive combo can own anything else. Give it 2 days and tehre will be a lot of combos against this

/Aire :)

Sheep
04-06-2005, 23:50
It's not an exploit, it's using a combination of skills to achieve a result, it might not be something that you've thought about doing but the best builds are made by thinking outside the box, as fun as just copying every fotm lifebond or air ele build is.

The same applied to baltz aura, if something is found to be overpowered then it'll get balanced but until that point it's by no means an "exploit". You know how boring this game would be if everyone just ran the same bog standard unimaginative builds? Half the fun in GW is thinking up new builds that noone has done before.

It's also very much counterable, you just have to think about the problem and use the skills GW provides you to find a solution, that's the nature of GW, it provides you with all the tools- you just have to use them. You don't even need a specific counter build really.

It was a lot of fun seeing all those minions scurrying around though :)

(I was playing the suicidal necro).

People should also try to stop blaming LuLu for everything, there's actually a team of pretty much the same players every night from the top us guilds that run/think up these builds.

saeben
04-06-2005, 23:51
They generally have a balanced team, that is hard to beat no matter what you throw at them. They don't pull sided bull like suiciding necros. Like it's already been pointed out, if you go in with the intent to beat it, it's easy to do. But most pickup groups won't be doing that. And after the whole thing with the aura, pulling a second shady thing is definitly not something I can respect. They can do it all they like, but I'm still going to say it's low, and requires very little actual fighting skill.

You are right...it does require little fighting skill. The good thing is that every build is beatable. So even your most balanced team is gonna lose every once and awhile. What it comes down to is the team that

1. has the best strategy
2. can communicate with each other

is the team that will win. Most pickup groups lack both of these.

Dark Anima
04-06-2005, 23:52
lol...zerg rush

Anyway...I don't see this as an exploit, just good strategy. They used an old concept of having allies kill themselves, animate,res,repeat(it is mentioned in the little strat book that came with beta box) and taken it to new hieghts.

Galen Roberts
04-06-2005, 23:54
Scrubs? What year are we in, 1999? Honestly, if they are using an exploit to win, then that's just what it is. If you are talking down to us, then you are one of the people who like to exploit and should probably shut up.

O rly. What exactly makes it an exploit? So far all I've heard is a bunch of people who claim to be psychic and know the developers intentions. Expert players routinely use tactics that the rest of the average gaming populace would consider 'cheap' or 'exploitive'. If it's truly unintended it will be patched out. Until then, the only recourse for a truly expert player would be to either learn and adopt/improve the tactic or find a counter. Several people in this thread have offered suggestions for counters. Until enough counters have been tried against the tactic there is absolutely know way to know whether or not it's a completely game-breaking and unbeatable tactic.

This entire thread, based on a single screenshot, is speculative at best. There is simply no way to know the extent to which this tactic changes the competetive game based on the information in this thread.

Don't worry about it though, just label it an exploit and continue to live in your own little world of artificially created rules. The rest of us will figure out how to counter it and move on.

GammaRay
04-06-2005, 23:57
I think there's a time limit between when you incur another DP or not...15 or 30 seconds. I've certainly had this happen a few times, I pop up to life in a fresh mob, and get knocked right back down and get no extra DP. It's fair enough in normal play, one would think, if someone resses you in the center of some horrible onslaught, why should you have to suffer a bigger DP?

Exploit or pure genius...I can't say. Although Smoke's EoE would take them down right fast, if you fireball the mob a few times rapidly, and a meteor for good measure. If one dies, the rest will take big damage...if in that moment, some others end up dying, it'll just close in some immense chain reaction. o.o

Either way, I'd like to see how this all pans out. Summoning Necros are usually unappreciated in the game as it is, aside from these insane cases -- it'll suck even harder for the rest of us if summoning gets nerfed hard...but for the sake of the rest of the game, it'd be acceptable.

doemondo
04-06-2005, 23:57
This is not made up (for the people that still dont believe it)
We had this happen to our group in HoH yesterday

We ran straight from our base to theirs, they had about 20+ bone minions at this point, I need see the necro with a green bar (poisoned) and killing himself as soon as I got in target range)

BUT, we had frozen soil and chain lighting on our bars (not for this build, but just there anyways) so dropped a soil, chained lightning, and they died fast

I was still damn surprised to see that many minions :)

Darksamurai333
05-06-2005, 00:02
[QUOTE=Jahoclave] but it also takes intelligence to blackmail yourself into office, turn the populas of your country against a religion, and take over most of europe; but nobody says we should respect Hitler for his achomplishments which took intelligence to do. [QUOTE]

I respect hitler very much, actually. what he did was horrible and i hope no one ever does it again. but you have to give it to the guy.

(btw, i am a studying jehovahs witness...so i do HATE hitler)

saeben
05-06-2005, 00:08
[QUOTE=Jahoclave] but it also takes intelligence to blackmail yourself into office, turn the populas of your country against a religion, and take over most of europe; but nobody says we should respect Hitler for his achomplishments which took intelligence to do. [QUOTE]

I respect hitler very much, actually. what he did was horrible and i hope no one ever does it again. but you have to give it to the guy.

(btw, i am a studying jehovahs witness...so i do HATE hitler)

Yeah he was a horrible person but he did accomplish some amazing things. You have to respect the fact that he came up from nothing to be the most powerful person at that time. Not to mention the german war machine is considered to be one of the greatest armies of all time. All in all he sucks.

MasterNightfall
05-06-2005, 00:08
The amount of people in this thread attempting to imply that there should be some sort of unwritten "Code of Honour" that is meant to smite the villians using "Cheap tricks," amuses me.

Isn't it nice how *you* are able to draw the line where it pleases.

Although, I suppose this is the natural evolution from the complaints about the 'OMGz unk1llable' 8 W/Mo teams.

I'd honestly love to see an elementalist with healing seed on him drop some lovely AoE on that group.

Loquetus
05-06-2005, 00:16
wouldn't a simple fix be max xx minions / necro alive at the same time
sure if the team still exists mainly out of necro's they can still get a huge number of minions but a team filled with nothing but necro's have downsides aswell :)
it's lame to just walls over the oponent cause you have that many summons
fire storm isn't going to kill the whole lot of them and just imagine if all of those were bone fiends
the dmge they'ld do would be incredible
every oponent would be dead in seconds from the sec they are attacked
cause no char can take +70 attacks all at once
not even people with protective spirit etc and +10h regen
only a mage using mistform can survive that kind of punishment
mage uses mistform, monk casts smite spells on elementalist and ele spams inferno + fire storm etc
that would probably kill off alot of minions the elemenalist would probably die cause of necro's using spells on him or death nova's poison


my suggestion would be max 15 minions / necro
then if they really wanna have fun and want to have 70 fiends they can have a mass slaughter party
also imho fiends should die when summoner gets killed but that might just be over the top
would make some sense cause it's the masters magic that keeps them alive >>

Metagenki
05-06-2005, 00:29
Still, having your team commit endless suicide is not something I would call respectable. They are NECROMANCERS, afterall.



I see a lot of scrubs in this thread. Anyone complaining that this is an "exploit" is doomed to failure in competetive PvP. Learn to play to win.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
That... was an awesome article. I think what I learned from it was relatively little, since I've been playing games a while now, but I think if some of these people would shut up and read it instead of mindlessly spamming here they would greatly improve. I've referred to something similar using the word the game has been using.. ascension.

Read and ascend!
---
I'm not sure how to put it in words yet, but I think it's a neat idea to design a game to be balanced without microbalancing every little detail and forcing the player to play within one small ruleset. To just give a huge pile of skills, and say, "Have fun, let's see what you can do with them" is how I've seen GW being, and why I've liked it so much.

It's like playing with legos instead of little army men. Sure you can probably melt down the army men and make something different, but you're not supposed to and it's much more difficult. On the other hand, legos are MADE for it, yet not made to be built into any specific thing.

Unless they're abusing a bug, I'd say they've found a group of skills that together are greater than the sum of their parts. Awesome.

Hades the Terrible
05-06-2005, 00:42
When they were using the Balthazar's Aura thing, that was an exploit. Why? The same skill was not made to be able to stack on something.

This, however, may or may not be an exploit. If it is, it should not be allowed to be done and thus fixed. If not, then it is good thinking and should be allowed.

But, this group also has members that used the Balthazar's Aura exploit. So this leads me to think that it might be an exploit. Word from ANet is needed for a final verdict.

IWantMORIDIN
05-06-2005, 01:03
This is not an exploit, so it should not be "fixed". It is an acceptable strategy. The only problem would be if it was too good- thus it would be unbalanced, and they should fix it by making it impossible to sacrifice yourself to death. (But then again they would just us chilblains, so they might have to take that skill away too).

Deaddocus
05-06-2005, 01:12
This is called evolution, people. Just look at it this way:

First, everyone is just messing around,

but then someone comes with a super build.

for a while they stay top of the ranks,

but then another team comes, making a strategy focussed on destroying theirs.

Balance shifts, the superbuild is beaten, messing around again.

Restart.

It is like Magic, it is like RTSs, it is like almost every game in the world. At the beginning everyone is simply searching, till one team finds a 'unbeatable' strategy. The result is that everyone seeks ways to beat that strategy and that will happen.
Sure, this team build is powerful, but only against some opponents, not against all. Stop whining about exploits and start thinking yourself on builds that will totally waste this one. I'm sure you'll find several.

Lulu, congrats on the great strategy, :) I think I'll try this out once in PvE once with my guild, just for fun as we aren't PvP players, :)

Maybe, just maybe, there should be a strategy section on some sites, so after having used a good strategy for a while and finally having it beaten, people could share it with others, so they can try it too. For fun :happy65:

katsu
05-06-2005, 01:22
this is in no way an exploit, getting these minions/fiends up took a lot of teamwork, and it took knowledge of the skills involved. also there are many counters to this as many have pointed out.

i've got to say that it was a blast playing in this build (i was sacrificing necro slong with sheep)

Sieglinde Leoncouer
05-06-2005, 01:40
They are NECROMANCERS, afterall.



That... was an awesome article. I think what I learned from it was relatively little, since I've been playing games a while now, but I think if some of these people would shut up and read it instead of mindlessly spamming here they would greatly improve. I've referred to something similar using the word the game has been using.. ascension.

Read and ascend!
---
I'm not sure how to put it in words yet, but I think it's a neat idea to design a game to be balanced without microbalancing every little detail and forcing the player to play within one small ruleset. To just give a huge pile of skills, and say, "Have fun, let's see what you can do with them" is how I've seen GW being, and why I've liked it so much.

It's like playing with legos instead of little army men. Sure you can probably melt down the army men and make something different, but you're not supposed to and it's much more difficult. On the other hand, legos are MADE for it, yet not made to be built into any specific thing.

Unless they're abusing a bug, I'd say they've found a group of skills that together are greater than the sum of their parts. Awesome.

I've been 'ascending' ever since computer games online were invented. I participated in the hardest online mud for some 13 years, adopting through some 6 differant versions of a game where link was important and yet I played from the USA (it is based in Norway) and still regularly achieved fame. This was the game where the whole Wp (war point) idiom came from, although now it's called fame points or whatever, very similiar ideas. All the while I never had to cheat or exploit my way to success, and never had to abuse others to achieve fame or fortune. I am no stranger to competition, or to online gaming. I do not have any problem whatsoever with clever play, but most times it is obvious to even the most dense cretin when they have crossed a line. Creating 70+ minions from your own corpse should trigger some sort of inner alarm bell. A perfect example would be the gentleman above who found an exploit and instead reported it. Sure, he might take advantage of it while it exists, but he also at same time let everyone else know it existed so it could be fixed. This is what should be respected, instead of todays youth culture which prizes instant gratification at any cost. I'm not going to claim to be some great GW guru, and there is no doubt in my mind some here really are, but I still recognize what skill is and what demands respect and what deserves scorn.

salaboB
05-06-2005, 01:43
*waits for a patch limiting how soon after the previous a bone minion can be summoned from a particular player's corpse*

If a skill based game requires -one- strategy to overcome an opponent's strategy, something is broken. I don't see any way you can get around this short of coming prepared to deal with a hoard of undead (Be that by making one yourself or loading up on skills to try and steal them from their masters), so there are some serious issues with what's going on. Thus why it's called an exploit, and all you people crying about it are not wanting to allow that label because you know that exploits get fixed.

Obviously if this strategy is imperfectly executed the people doing it will die (Like if they don't manage to get enough bone minions up in time, they can fall to high damage focus AoE's like chain lightning) but that doesn't mean it's not a broken strategy because it's possible to beat it. If it requires either a flaw in its execution to fail, or a build set up to defeat it, there's a problem (It goes against the idea of the game being skill based, because a skill based game will allow a well designed team to have a chance against other teams, not get crushed just because they didn't bring verata's aura and had no chance to fight back)

Now, here's the part that everyone yelling about it not being an exploit doesn't understand about my stance: I think it's great that it's being used. I think it should be used until it's fixed. Then, stop using it (Obviously ;)) If something in the game is there and can be brokenly used like this, take it and run. It'll help the game become better over the long term when things like this are removed.

dirtycash
05-06-2005, 01:53
I don't think they would do that. I think they should just make it so a necro could not kill himself. Make it so you can't sacrifice if you don't have the ample life left.

Also the Signet of Agony should not work unless you are targeting an enemy.

At any rate, call it an exploit, call it genious.... we all know deep down its just very lame.

I can't believe Aire is sticking by the Balths deal. How ridiculous/lame/stupid/ghay etc was that. Always a way for 1 person to try to ruin the game for others.

dirtycash
05-06-2005, 01:58
Oh and I should just go ahead and say, Lulu isn't crap when he isn't using an exploit.

We said hello to him last night in the rounds before HoH. Hi Lulu. :howdy:

TheSock
05-06-2005, 01:59
Wow, this thread has really grown. Now, I've never tried building a summoner necromancer, so I need some clarification.

In those two pictures, you'll notice several bone fiends on the stairs. I'm wondering just how they could have such high life regen from that distance. It was pretty crazy, approx. 4-5 at any given time from what I experienced (ie. constant Troll Unguent). Is this legit? As in, is it even possible? No doubt there are ways to raise a decent army of bonies, but to have it working so flawlessly (and quickly) makes me wonder.

Hintshigen Elgin
05-06-2005, 02:00
*waits for a patch limiting how soon after the previous a bone minion can be summoned from a particular player's corpse*

If a skill based game requires -one- strategy to overcome an opponent's strategy, something is broken. I don't see any way you can get around this short of coming prepared to deal with a hoard of undead (Be that by making one yourself or loading up on skills to try and steal them from their masters), so there are some serious issues with what's going on. Thus why it's called an exploit, and all you people crying about it are not wanting to allow that label because you know that exploits get fixed.

Obviously if this strategy is imperfectly executed the people doing it will die (Like if they don't manage to get enough bone minions up in time, they can fall to high damage focus AoE's like chain lightning) but that doesn't mean it's not a broken strategy because it's possible to beat it. If it requires either a flaw in its execution to fail, or a build set up to defeat it, there's a problem (It goes against the idea of the game being skill based, because a skill based game will allow a well designed team to have a chance against other teams, not get crushed just because they didn't bring verata's aura and had no chance to fight back)

Now, here's the part that everyone yelling about it not being an exploit doesn't understand about my stance: I think it's great that it's being used. I think it should be used until it's fixed. Then, stop using it (Obviously ;)) If something in the game is there and can be brokenly used like this, take it and run. It'll help the game become better over the long term when things like this are removed.

Easily the most intelligent post in this thread.

:happy14:

salaboB
05-06-2005, 02:01
I don't think they would do that. I think they should just make it so a necro could not kill himself. Make it so you can't sacrifice if you don't have the ample life left.

Scourge sacrifice is supposed to be a way to force a necro to accidentally kill himself...as is awaken the blood. They just wouldn't be the same if they simply prevented you from sacrificing, just because you took a hit right before you tried it.

I also see no problem with a few minions summoned before a match. If they only allowed a corpse to be exploited for a minion at the point where it could earn DP for the death again (About 10 seconds? It would require that the person dying could receive DP, otherwise their corpse would register as "already used" because they hadn't been restored fully to life and didn't have enough life energy available. This would also make vengeance/unyielding aura have a bit more of a purpose, you could use them so necromancers couldn't use the corpses after the people fell again) then the minion amount would be severely curtailed, and the necros would be getting death penalty each time. Edit: Testing just indicated they do indeed receive DP for each death. This seems like an advantage in a case like this, since it means that the % of life that the touch rez brings them back with will be lower, but it does mean they'll be weaker for actually fighting. Not that it matters with this many minions, but I figured I should correct my mistake :P

dirtycash
05-06-2005, 02:12
In your example Scourge is killing them. Not sacrificing. Scrouge being on them, would mean a team is near. Meaning this lame stuff isn't an issue.

salaboB
05-06-2005, 02:15
In your example Scourge is killing them. Not sacrificing. Scrouge being on them, would mean a team is near. Meaning this lame stuff isn't an issue.
How about awaken the blood? :)

What about this: You can't sacrifice yourself to death unless you've fought too recently to identify an item, or if an enemy is inside your radar circle? Then you could do it if you were in the heat of battle (There are some suicide bomber builds that need this) but you couldn't if there were no enemies around. "It's too peaceful to kill yourself."

The problem still is that barbed signet and chilblains both put DOTs on, and there are legitimate times someone may want to use them while out of range of an enemy (To share the status, say) I'm gonna have to stick with the idea that if the person wasn't alive long enough, them dying won't leave a corpse you can exploit.

Work Her
05-06-2005, 02:54
OMG SS of me as a monk, you'll never see one of those again.. haha.. Can't really see me but I'm there.. :happy05:

MisterP
05-06-2005, 02:58
How about you can't use skills while waiting for the match to actually start? Or some variation of that theme.

Work Her
05-06-2005, 03:08
How about you can't use skills while waiting for the match to actually start? Or some variation of that theme.

You'd think that would help.

salaboB
05-06-2005, 03:29
How about you can't use skills while waiting for the match to actually start? Or some variation of that theme.
It's good to be able to buff and then allow energy to regen, so just locking people from not using skills wouldn't be a good idea. Even some sacrifice skills are aimed at future results (Like demonic flesh) so you can't really ban those without causing other problems.

Cartigan
05-06-2005, 03:35
life sacrifice skills should work the same as skill that require you to give up energy: you can only sacrifice life while you have that much lfie to sacrifice

KriaSeries
05-06-2005, 03:39
has any1 thought of using verratas aura? >.> just a thought

Synthos
05-06-2005, 03:43
That would be troublesome as well, because chillibans still makes you poisoned and im sure people would find a way around it. I think the only way to do it sadly is to limit the amount of minions that can come from a corpse of one person througout the mission. Or make it so you cant make a minion out of the same body of a person consectively.

AlsPals
05-06-2005, 03:50
Although, I suppose this is the natural evolution from the complaints about the 'OMGz unk1llable' 8 W/Mo teams.

A little off topic, but why is it that everyone seems to think that when a guy owns a teams and brags, he uses leetspeak? I feel any other person who says this is an 1d107(idiot) and needs to stop. Most leetspeakers will say own, pwn, pwned, powned,pwon, and nothing more. Not all that letter and number sh1t like "OMG W3 T0T@lly p3wzered!!!111!!! WHO ACTUALLY SAYS THAT STUFF you ask??? only the people who thinks the person that owned him is saying that.

saeben
05-06-2005, 03:51
LMAO there are a lot of haters on this thread. Creating an army of minions is a valid strategy so get over it. They are necromancers after all.

Sieglinde Leoncouer
05-06-2005, 03:59
LMAO there are a lot of haters on this thread. Creating an army of minions is a valid strategy so get over it. They are necromancers after all.

There is a differance between making an acceptable amount of minions and clearly going overboard. Have you had any encounters yet in the entire game where you fought 70 of ANYTHING at one time, wether it be squirrels or dragons? Of course not, as that's not how the game is supposed to work.

drunkenclamm
05-06-2005, 04:12
Didn't bother reading all 11 pages, but what if an ally corpse could only be either resurrected or made into a minion? That would stop this exploit a lot quicker. Instead of making a minion then ressurecting, if the necro chose to make the minion, that ally's corpse could not be used anymore. And also, it should be limited to your allies so you can't make a minion out of an opponent's corpse and stop him from playing that round.

Metagenki
05-06-2005, 04:21
Creating 70+ minions from your own corpse should trigger some sort of inner alarm bell.
Well, it doesn't.

You act like they would be nearly impossible to beat or something. In my experience necro minions have been weak to the point of just ignoring them.

I'd be more afraid of a group of air elementalists shooting lightning orbs, by far.

They're obviously geared just for this strategy, they can't do anything else. With these skills equipped, this is all these guys have (however many it takes to do it). It's not like they have the minions PLUS normal abilities. They're also racking up the DP on one or more of their members.

I honestly don't see what's so horribly wrong here. Stuff like this is what makes it fun.

I don't even LIKE necros...

dirtycash
05-06-2005, 04:30
Well, it doesn't.

You act like they would be nearly impossible to beat or something. In my experience necro minions have been weak to the point of just ignoring them.

I'd be more afraid of a group of air elementalists shooting lightning orbs, by far.

They're obviously geared just for this strategy, they can't do anything else. With these skills equipped, this is all these guys have (however many it takes to do it). It's not like they have the minions PLUS normal abilities. They're also racking up the DP on one or more of their members.

I honestly don't see what's so horribly wrong here. Stuff like this is what makes it fun.

I don't even LIKE necros...

Your post clearly speaks of your inexperience.

Derob Ma I
05-06-2005, 04:43
This thread is so funny. LULU YOU EXPLOITER! USING GAME MECHANICS AND A TRICK CREATED BY A DEVOLOPER!!!!

salaboB
05-06-2005, 04:44
You act like they would be nearly impossible to beat or something. In my experience necro minions have been weak to the point of just ignoring them.

I'd be more afraid of a group of air elementalists shooting lightning orbs, by far.
Level 18 ranged minions can hit HARD. My monk gets hit for 25-30's from the ones that are summoned by gnashers in the southern shiverpeaks, and I don't believe they're summoning level 18 ones there.

A large group of minions like that will absolutely mow through your party, regardless of protections you may try (Unless you built with it specifically in mind, and even then if the opponents have some enchantment stripping you'll die anyway).

GammaRay
05-06-2005, 04:47
Most of the minions you've fought probably weren't very strong. The closer they are to your level, the more effective they become. In this case, level 18 is pretty close to 20.

Bone Horrors attacking a single target in numbers of 5 or greater is actually pretty intense. Less than four and it's hardly an issue. They may attack rather slow, but they have a way of swinging in unison, and the end result is rather harsh. Even a heavily armored warrior will feel that sting. Now, multiply that by ten, toss in some Bone Fiends for good measure, and almost anyone will fall easily (yay for mistform and healing seed!).

But I'm starting to think that this isn't quite as insane as might be thought. I'm sure the devs never intended there to be THAT manny Horrors at any given moment (although Gates of Kryta can get pretty bad). I think even a W/Mo with heavy smiting could take a big chunk of that mob down in one fell swoop. Grab Symbol of Wrath, and have Healing Seed/Healing Hands on you during the faceoff with the mob. As they cluster, you can trigger SoW for some double-damage smiting, and then throw a Signet of Judgment on them as well. At the very least, they'd be very weakened, even with 10 regen. Consider that an elementalist could be hurling Fireballs and Meteors as well for splash damage, and a Ranger with Frozen Soil and/or Edge of Extinction, and I can see almost the entire army of Bone Horrors at least falling in seconds.

You could also consider Judge's Insight (holy + penetration), Apply Poison (extra degen), and Cyclone Axe (Melee AoE).

Although there is an easy solution to that counter-measure too. Just put healing seed on one of the minions being beaten on...hmm...

EDIT:

Level 18 ranged minions can hit HARD. My monk gets hit for 25-30's from the ones that are summoned by gnashers in the southern shiverpeaks, and I don't believe they're summoning level 18 ones there.

Nope, I'm pretty sure those ones are only level 16.

And, Sieglinde, that MUD you're talking about wouldn't happen to be Zork or something, would it? 8)

Work Her
05-06-2005, 04:55
Nope, I'm pretty sure those ones are only level 16.

And, Sieglinde, that MUD you're talking about wouldn't happen to be Zork or something, would it? 8)

They're level 18. And what your saying about killing them would never work, you can't just target 1 bone minion out of 60 and expect to kill them 1by1..

salaboB
05-06-2005, 04:56
But I'm starting to think that this isn't quite as insane as might be thought. I'm sure the devs never intended there to be THAT manny minions at any given moment (although Gates of Kryta can get pretty bad). I think even a W/Mo with heavy smiting could take a big chunk of that mob down in one fell swoop. Grab Symbol of Wrath, and have Healing Seed/Healing Hands on you during the faceoff with the mob. As they cluster, you can trigger SoW for some double-damage smiting, and then throw a Signet of Judgment on them as well. At the very least, they'd be very weakened, even with 10 regen. Consider that an elementalist could be hurling Fireballs and Meteors as well for splash damage, and a Ranger with Frozen Soil and/or Edge of Extinction, and I can see almost the entire army of Bone Horrors at least falling in seconds.

Don't forget you're facing a team with a number necros (And probably mesmers, at least). Healing seed/hands easily falls to a strip or shatter enchantment, spellbreaker will go *poof* to a chilblains (Or they'll just switch targets, which is also the problem with mistform...it'll protect you, but that won't do much good if your team has fallen around you), and who knows what the other parts of their builds may have. The sheer amount of spawns would give most of their team free reign to backfire, etc. and just wreak general havoc on your team while you attempt to deal with their number of charmies.

dirtycash
05-06-2005, 04:57
Problem with all of your AoE things, is that the Bone Fiends are ranged and they don't cluster. Good ideas though! :(

Work Her
05-06-2005, 04:59
True, but the best counter I rather keep secret.. I like winning. :p

GammaRay
05-06-2005, 05:01
Of course. It'd be very easy for a team of Necros and Mesmers to obliterate that kind of offensive with stripping, backfiring, and the likes. Not to mention a good old interrupt on the Signet of Judgement or SoW, both of which have sizable wind-up times and big cool-down times. If anyone actually pulled it off, I have a feeling they'd be dead around the same time as the minions.

Although there's probably a way to counter that counter, with the right team build. Lather, rinse, repeat. This is starting to feel like a 6-man melee game of Magic, when four people start tossing out conterspells to counter counterspells.

The insanity...

And yes, the Bone Fiends are still at large! Note that I specifically mentioned Bone Horrors as going down. The 35 Fiends are something that I've yet to figure out how to kill. :P

Especially since they'd be more spread out, probably.

Kriegar
05-06-2005, 05:05
This post makes me laugh.

*shakes fist angrily at you*
:lol:

AAATed
05-06-2005, 05:18
What was Lulu's exploit with balthazar's aura?

Sieglinde Leoncouer
05-06-2005, 05:19
Most of the minions you've fought probably weren't very strong. The closer they are to your level, the more effective they become. In this case, level 18 is pretty close to 20.

Bone Horrors attacking a single target in numbers of 5 or greater is actually pretty intense. Less than four and it's hardly an issue. They may attack rather slow, but they have a way of swinging in unison, and the end result is rather harsh. Even a heavily armored warrior will feel that sting. Now, multiply that by ten, toss in some Bone Fiends for good measure, and almost anyone will fall easily (yay for mistform and healing seed!).

But I'm starting to think that this isn't quite as insane as might be thought. I'm sure the devs never intended there to be THAT manny Horrors at any given moment (although Gates of Kryta can get pretty bad). I think even a W/Mo with heavy smiting could take a big chunk of that mob down in one fell swoop. Grab Symbol of Wrath, and have Healing Seed/Healing Hands on you during the faceoff with the mob. As they cluster, you can trigger SoW for some double-damage smiting, and then throw a Signet of Judgment on them as well. At the very least, they'd be very weakened, even with 10 regen. Consider that an elementalist could be hurling Fireballs and Meteors as well for splash damage, and a Ranger with Frozen Soil and/or Edge of Extinction, and I can see almost the entire army of Bone Horrors at least falling in seconds.

You could also consider Judge's Insight (holy + penetration), Apply Poison (extra degen), and Cyclone Axe (Melee AoE).

Although there is an easy solution to that counter-measure too. Just put healing seed on one of the minions being beaten on...hmm...

EDIT:


Nope, I'm pretty sure those ones are only level 16.

And, Sieglinde, that MUD you're talking about wouldn't happen to be Zork or something, would it? 8)

Wasn't Zork just a single player pc game put out by Infocom? The mud I played up until the last year or so is called Mume. It is based on Tolkien's works, and as far as I saw it was the first to have a real 2 sided (and now 3) race, complex town justice system (the devs at UO came to us to try and deal with their problems), etc. Zork never had any wps to it, although it did keep track of how close you were to the end by a scoring system. :)

Kaelan
05-06-2005, 05:22
I don't really understand how this build can be classed an exploit. All the game mechanics are working as designed, and nobody is cheating or relying on bugs to do it. It's hardly an unstoppable build, either, as I've seen it stopped using various techniques today (not just ONE specialized anti-minion build - I didn't see any Frozen Soil or EoE today and yet teams still managed to murder the minion army).

Zvixo
05-06-2005, 05:33
Why not make it so that 60% death penalty automatically gives a used up corpse?
Would actually even fit rpg wise. Your body is so used up, that not even a level 1 minion will be able to be summoned from it.

Otherwise just death nova the whole lot, and send em in with taste of death.

qtfsniper
05-06-2005, 05:43
yea. i dont see anything wrong with this. If he is built this way, there is a weakness in another department. He is using a combination of skills to works well. Others can find an awesome build. One person find the awesome build and everyone calls it exploiting....

salaboB
05-06-2005, 05:51
Here's why it's an exploit:

How much skill does it take to build the army? Not much. All you do is spam yourself to death over and over if you're the one providing corpses, spam revive over and over if you're the reviver, and spam summon minions over and over if you're the creator. Plus someone to keep them alive, which just takes a little practice and not a ton of skill.

How much skill does it take to use the army to devastating effect? Not much. All you do is attack the enemies, and they get to deal with 50+ minions assaulting them all at once, while you gain a huge advantage from it (Even with a couple party members at 60% DP)

Can it be beaten by a very, very skilled team? Yes. But it doesn't take a lot of skill to put together, so why does it require so much to defeat it?

That's why, in the end, it's an exploit. Far too much power, without requiring nearly enough skill for its effectiveness.

Mortimer
05-06-2005, 05:55
yea. i dont see anything wrong with this. If he is built this way, there is a weakness in another department. He is using a combination of skills to works well. Others can find an awesome build. One person find the awesome build and everyone calls it exploiting....
It's an awesome build, sure, but it's also an exploit. Are life sacrifice skills intended to be used to suicide so you have a corpse for minions? No, the cost of death is supposed to be avoided. Using skills in an unintended fashion to get a powerful combination is clever, but it's still an exploit.

Lydia Ashengard
05-06-2005, 05:56
Zerging an enemy with mindless numbers requires no skill whatsoever.

Jezza
05-06-2005, 06:41
Zerging an enemy with mindless numbers requires no skill whatsoever.
Comming up with the build to achieve that - priceless.

I mean intelligent and skillful.

salaboB
05-06-2005, 06:45
Comming up with the build to achieve that - priceless.

I mean intelligent and skillful.
Nobody's saying they weren't intelligent to come up with it in the first place.

Difficulty in designing the build has no impact on its effectiveness in play, or whether it's balanced, overpowered, or underpowered. I could come up with some incredibly intricate strategies that most people would completely overlook...and get totally crushed for my troubles!

The thing that needs to be looked at is how difficult it is how much skill is required to defeat it in comparison to how much is required to do it. In this case, far more skill is required to defeat it than is required to execute it, and that's very bad in a game like this (The more effective a strategy, the more skill should be required to successfully accomplish it. That's a skill based strategy game.)

Torm Shadowbane
05-06-2005, 06:52
LOL. I can't believe the amount of people complaining about this build. It's actually a pretty crappy build that can easily be countered without much thought at all. All it would take is a single Mesmer/Necromancer or Necromancer/Mesmer to do it and two skills, and someone else with a secondary as Necromancer just-incase...

Anyway, I think it's funny and I think that was the builds intention. I mean really, seeing that many Minions coming at you isn't funny? If you die to them, fine, you figure out what is going on and how to counter it.

And before anyone complains about having to "bring certain skills to counter this build"... well... that's the equivalent to Elementalists complaining about having to bring Ward Against Melee to ward against Warriors.

I think those who are upset should take a lesson from what has occurred here and remember that Guild Wars is a game based around TEAM work. That building characters should be based around a TEAM and not individuals. That's what makes this build so powerful... and why 99.9% of all pick-up groups would fail against it and would never come up with it.

Just my thoughts. I find this funny, had a good chuckle.

salaboB
05-06-2005, 06:58
And before anyone complains about having to "bring certain skills to counter this build"... well... that's the equivalent to Elementalists complaining about having to bring Ward Against Melee to ward against Warriors.

Except elementalists have a number of options for defense against warriors other than ward against melee (Armor of earth, kinetic armor, mist form, whirlwhind, grasping earth, magnetic aura, ward against foes, glimmering mark, etc. and they aren't just brought in case you happen to run into enemy warriors using a specific build, they stop almost any enemy warrior. Not to mention the monk, necromancer, mesmer, other warrior, AND ranger skills that can be brought to counter the warriors. Let me know when the skills to counter zerg-minions are available to all the classes that way) and you'll have to bring a very specific skill set to oppose this build, that doesn't serve a lot of purpose anywhere else (Even against other necros. You'd have to bring skills to put a stop to one specific type of necro, period).

I think you should remember that it's a team based game, and as such there should always be at least two or three options for skills that can aid against certain strategies, so you can have some flexibility in your builds with each member of the team covering different portions of defense. As it is...it's not using your team to counter this strategy, it's just using one member throwing away skill slots in case you encounter it.

spne
05-06-2005, 06:59
Ive fought that.
And i say: It's impossible for them to raise THAT army in so little time. We rushed for them. And they already had those minions.

No way to get that huge ammount of minions in that little time. It's just impossible. I rushed using Storm Chaser and they already had everything.

Skill ? I don't trust Lulu's Skill.
Not after Balthazar's.

If it's not a exploit, then i need to say: It's a clever build. It's not powerful, 2 chain lightinings and a lot of them were down + Balthazars / Meteor. It's not hard to bring them down. But it's impossible to have that number of minions in so little time. Period.

Kaelan
05-06-2005, 07:01
If it's not a exploit, then i need to say: It's a clever build. It's not powerful, 2 chain lightinings and a lot of them were down + Balthazars / Meteor. It's not hard to bring them down. But it's impossible to have that number of minions in so little time. Period.
Do we need to record a goddamn video clip with fraps and give you play by play commentary before you will believe it's possible? Jesus, it's not like this is a difficult build to run. Try it yourself!

It's an easy build to counter. Numerous different skill sets work against it. Quit whining and start winning.

salaboB
05-06-2005, 07:09
It's an easy build to counter. Numerous different skill sets work against it. Quit whining and start winning.

From the post you quoted, bold added for the part you seem to have missed:

If it's not a exploit, then i need to say: It's a clever build. It's not powerful, 2 chain lightinings and a lot of them were down + Balthazars / Meteor. It's not hard to bring them down. But it's impossible to have that number of minions in so little time. Period.
So Kaelan: Do you need some lessons in how to read posts? Do you just skim them and rant about what you think is being said? He clearly states that it's not hard to beat it! So why are you yelling at him to go win, when apparently he already did?

Sheesh...

Guardian_Angel_MP
05-06-2005, 07:10
you should post the fraps, it would be interesting and fun to see...especially if you can get the 70 raised like people have seen in the pic. And honestly, if it isn't an exploit then spell it out for other people so they can see it's not an exploit, then you will have the challenge of trying to counter the builds that will come up to counter the undead horde. I've seen speculation on how it is done (it's late so my memory after 14 pages isn't good), so if you use this build please give us a play by play (the fraps would be really sweet).

Kaelan
05-06-2005, 07:11
From the post you quoted, bold added for the part you seem to have missed:

So Kaelan: Do you need some lessons in how to read posts? Do you just skim them and rant about what you think is being said? He clearly states that it's not hard to beat it! So why are you yelling at him to go win, when apparently he already did?

Sheesh...
I quoted the wrong post. Sorry. :lol:

toor
05-06-2005, 07:13
This may or may not be an exploit of programming in the games. It may very well be the clever use of synergy between skills. The fact remains that it is an IMBALANCE in game play. The strategy is too powerful. Congrats to LuLu for coming up with it (ironically a Necro in my guild suggested it but we thought it was dumb/cheesy). However if you don't believe this is a dominant strategy then its clear you have never played PvP at a high level. THose bone fiends do 500 dmg volleys and are spread out through the chamber. It is definitely an imbalance in the game.

Analogy to Magic that we all seem to love. When Tolarian Academy came oput (part of Urza Saga), a deck was soon found that used it in a manner the devs never expected and was far superior to any other deck in the environment. As a result action was needed for competitive play to remain meaningful. This wasn't exploit it was flaw in the design that was abused. A legal abuse but one that lowered the enjoyment of competitive play for all.

You have to be crazy if you think ANet wont nerf this. The only question is how and when. And I do think it is sad that LuLu resorts to this to win . Then again I may just be bitter. I lost to her Balthazar's strat twice.

Torm Shadowbane
05-06-2005, 07:37
I can think of several ways to beat this team. First off they need some amount of time to raise enough minions to be a serious threat. Attack them before they have the chance. The Master of the Minions is going to have to be using Verata's Sacrifice to counter the Minion degeneration.

Unless I am mistaken, the longer minions are alive the higher their degeneration becomes (max 10 degeneration, like on players). This means the Master is basically going to have to keep spamming VS over and over, sacrificing 33% of his life, gaining all minion conditions, to keep his Minions alive. At 16 in Death Magic VS will last 21 Seconds with a 30 second recast... most likely to keep that many minions alive he will be secondary Mesmer with the ability Arcane Echo up so he can keep his minions at 10 Regeneration indefinitely.

He will most likely be using lots of Death Magic skills (duh), so there are a number of ways you can counter him. First you can use Vereta's Aura along with Arcane Echo because the Master would likely have VA as well. He will be using Echo for VS, not VA so he cannot counter again. Although there is most likely other Necros in the build since they are sacrificing themselves, so they might have VA as well. Which might be a good idea for a Necro Secondary to bring VA as well.

Of course, if you didn't want to do that you could wait till the Master of the Minions gets ready to cast VS then hit him with a Power Block... which would result in all of his Death Magic skills being disabled and his Minions gaining +10 Health Degeneration and at 12 Domination that means his death magic skills will be disabled for 13 seconds. That should be long enough for *all* of his minions to die off, and if not simply have an Elementalist cast a Fireball or something.

The hardest thing that would face you would be living through the Minions attacks, but it is most certainly do-able (Ward Against Melee). Of course, none of this is taking into account crappy Minion AI. He'd need at least 20 Minions to even be a threat to any group who wasn't going to be slaughtered regardless.

Torm Shadowbane
05-06-2005, 07:41
Yes, Kaelan I want a play-by-play and a video. Why? Because I think it's funny. That, and I want to try a similar build in PvE to use against those invading Charr at the Wall Mission. (Imagine it: Undead Horde vs Charr Horde! :lol: )

GammaRay
05-06-2005, 07:47
I've always wanted to fight the Charr mob in the first mission...I'd love to see a video (or take part in) Charr VS Undead. 8)

Guardian_Angel_MP
05-06-2005, 07:51
just go back to the mission with some level 20s and you shouldn't have a problem defeating the charr, my group didn't at least.

but on topic: the build is way overpowered, even if there are ways to counter it

and who else wants to see the video?

drunkenclamm
05-06-2005, 07:54
I'd like to see it

Torm Shadowbane
05-06-2005, 08:02
Sure, I could go back with a bunch of level 20's... but would it really be as fun than watching two Hordes rip into each other?

RandomEngy
05-06-2005, 08:06
The way I see it, if you invent an exploit like that, you deserve to use it until it's fixed. Anyway, with the build our guild is running right now, we have a level 16 Edge of Extinction, so after the first few minion kills, they'd all just collapse.

Darksamurai333
05-06-2005, 08:37
i for one would love to see that (i love minions soooo much, i would love to see an effective way to keep many, many alive....untill they are all destroyed that is ^_^)

Sheep
05-06-2005, 08:40
I've got a vid but no host atm.

To all the people saying how unbalanced it is how many of you have actually played against it? Other than the fact of "omg lots of critters it must be overpowered lets cry nerf!".

Honestly it's just a fun mess around build, the fact that fiends in that number have such bad pathing AI, will repeatedly just stand around doing nothing and don't focus fire etc. etc. weaken it significantly, that and under focus fire/aoe damage they die pretty quick.

As for it being an exploit/hack, what can I tell you? Instead of sitting here making false accusations maybe the time would be better spent in game finding out for yourself.

Torm Shadowbane
05-06-2005, 09:20
I have to agree with Sheep. I mean... really... you can have 1000 minions... they will still suck. :p

If ANet wanted to put a limit on how many minions could be alive all they'd have to do is allow Minion Degeneration to go up to 11 instead of 10.

Cielmerlion
05-06-2005, 09:43
first iff i agree with whoever said that coming up with these kinds of strategies require extensive planning and testing, and that the way its meant to be played is that we are given the skills and we are supposed to come up with brilliand group combinations. obviously a randomly throun tougeather group would not stand up against this. secondly, why is everyone so angry at lulu? all he does is do just that, use the skills he is given in brilliant ways to come up with strategies that annihalate anyone whois unprepared or unskilled enough. sure, these trategies may work a few times, but thanks to forums like these they will begome widely known and counters will be found and eventually strategies like thses will be run of the mill. also im pretty sure that the lulu was not chuckling to himself " hehe, im cheating" when using the balthazars, he took a set of rules given by the skills and used it inteligently, the problem wasnt him it was the way the rules were writen. it all trial and error this early in the game, really. so all you people complaining about it here, just suck it up and wait it out if your too lazy to fight against it, soon there will be enough counters to encourage anyone using this to stop, or to make using that strategy innefective.

TheQuickness
05-06-2005, 09:54
has anyone else noticed that like 4 people so far have claimed to be the sacrificing necro in that team?

Kaelan
05-06-2005, 10:09
has anyone else noticed that like 4 people so far have claimed to be the sacrificing necro in that team?There's more than one team running this build, and it's not the only build that Lulu uses.

GammaRay
05-06-2005, 10:23
Sheep, we'd love to see that video. I could put it on my comcast page, but it has a max of 25 MB at a time (probably not enough for a decent quality video).

Mortimer
05-06-2005, 11:07
LOL. I can't believe the amount of people complaining about this build. It's actually a pretty crappy build that can easily be countered without much thought at all. All it would take is a single Mesmer/Necromancer or Necromancer/Mesmer to do it and two skills, and someone else with a secondary as Necromancer just-incase...
Okay, now think about this build in PvE. While it would be amazing seeing all the monsters getting ripped apart by undead, don't you think it would make things a little easy?

deathmf
05-06-2005, 11:21
i'd love to see that video too

Buddah
05-06-2005, 11:24
He's exploiting skills.


A better term for this case would be a broken combo.

goatsong
05-06-2005, 12:31
if the effect takes so little skill or ingenuity to achieve, why don't all you people complaining just do the same thing as Lulu?

dirtycash
05-06-2005, 12:38
if the effect takes so little skill or ingenuity to achieve, why don't all you people complaining just do the same thing as Lulu?

Cause its ghey/lame? Just like Balths. Because others prosper by being lame, doesn't mean we should all be that way.

REI ONRYOU
05-06-2005, 13:11
It can only truly be considered an exploit if the devs confirm that train of thought and plan to do something about it.

I remember in Red Alert multiplayer, I would build masses of War Factories, as everyone decreased the time it would take to build tanks. At 6 War Factories (and with enough money) I could produce a Mammoth Tank in half the time of a Heavy Tank and have a speedy tank rush going. I know for a fact the decrease in build time was limited at 3 War Factories in a later patch. Why? It was deemed inbalancing, but not necessarily an exploit. This is just an example of when something is overlooked by developers (theres a lot for them to look at in GW).

The massive army may be inbalanced and too powerful, but I don't see the idea of sacrificing to make an army expoitation of the game.

Since there are many Minion Masters going around at the moment, I suggest bringing Verata's Aura with you. You don't need to use expensive Minion Summoning spells, when you can just steal your opponents handywork. Imagine how unlucky you would feel after making 70 odd minions to suddenly be attacked by them.

Mortimer
05-06-2005, 15:31
Well, I can imagine Mindblade Spectres would be pretty easy to take out with this trick. If something isn't done soon, I'd imagine most teams will start being comprised of a few part necros.

Would making minions be less affected by healing as time goes on be a good fix for this? That's basically what the health degen is supposed to accomplish, but monk healing can get around that. I haven't extensively used minions, but I don't imagine that reducing the effectiveness of heals would harm any casual minionmancer.

mrsandoo
05-06-2005, 17:38
Cause its ghey/lame? Just like Balths. Because others prosper by being lame, doesn't mean we should all be that way.

You can complain all you want, but he's the one that probably wins. And as long as the devs don't fix it, you can't technically call it a exploit. All I can see is a guy who used a little briains.

AlsPals
05-06-2005, 18:14
I dont beleive it is an exploit myself, as it seems legitamate. Now, i said seems legit, but i dont know bout that many minions at once being littered about like statues near the middle of the arena(strategic positioning) and not dying off in mass numbers. it is creative though, but not original, as in page 16 of the guild wars tournament survival guide that came with the preorder, there is a group build named DEATH NOVA. all they did was axe all the ideas but spamming the minions, but i would have to see it done myself. Anyway, i would like to see a video, and what exactly was LuLus exploit with balthazars aura?

Metagenki
05-06-2005, 19:38
I said it before already...

I'd be more scared of an air elementalist team spiking us.

Even healing hands would probably make you completely immune to them for it's duration. What about shielding hands and life bond? They would do 0 damage each.

I could probably sit here thinking of lots of ways to deal with them. But nothing will change a lot of these peoples' minds until they're spoon fed a complete working build.

And I'm feeling pretty insulted by the guy saying my post "speaks of my inexperience" without any kind of support at all. You might as well just sit there saying, "no ur stupid."

Metagenki
05-06-2005, 19:42
On the people complaining about skill... how much skill does it take to have a team of many W/Mo run in with mending and attack stuff till it dies? We have many effective counters now, but a while ago that was a target of complaints, too.

Guardian_Angel_MP
05-06-2005, 20:05
If this is an exploit how can you say it is only an exploit when the dev's fix it, that is like saying that a crime is only a crime when a judge convicts someone of it or that a horse is only a horse when you are told it's a horse. An exploit is an exploit is an exploit, no matter if the dev's fix it or not (they may think it's a minor one that can be tolerated and doesn't warrent fixing but it is an exploit none the less).

Buddah
05-06-2005, 20:06
I said it before already...

I'd be more scared of an air elementalist team spiking us.

Even healing hands would probably make you completely immune to them for it's duration. What about shielding hands and life bond? They would do 0 damage each.

The real problem is getting through all the minions just to shut down the reanimation cycle. That many minions just bogs down movement and can become an effective wall. Plus I doubt the minions are doing to much damage themselves, though a single Mark of Pain on a person in there would be the end of anyone close to them.

I'm more interested in what the devs decide then any player rants. This is just a good case of a questionable tactic being brought up for review.

GammaRay
05-06-2005, 20:53
Actually, I was just playing last night in Thunderhead Keep, and there were a fair amount of Gnashers bringing up level 16 Bone Fiends. Even though I have the 70 AL armor on my ranger, and they were 4 levels below me, they still hit for 15~30+ damage. A hail of those things from 30+ Fiends would make even a warrior suffer without the right buffs, and those buffs could just as easily be peeled off.

Good thing Order of Pain and Order of the Vampire don't account for minions...

Metagenki
05-06-2005, 21:07
The real problem is getting through all the minions just to shut down the reanimation cycle. That many minions just bogs down movement and can become an effective wall.

I really doubt there's so many that they can't even get in arrow/casting range of the necro... and if they're packed in so close as to make a wall, AoE will be incredibly effective against them.


I'm more interested in what the devs decide then any player rants. This is just a good case of a questionable tactic being brought up for review.
Nice to hear you're not so one-sided. I'm interested in seeing how they decide too, but I think it's stuff like this that makes it fun. If nobody ever says, "OMG," what fun is it?

Edge of Extinction would also make it pretty fun :D

spne
05-06-2005, 21:47
Verata's Aura is your friend.
Verata should be enough to rape them. But i guess Lulu isn't going to use this strat anymore. Too easy to counter.

I just dont know how they have that many minions is so little time. Would be nice to see how it's done.

Btw.. Necro Minion Masters are becoming a lot more popular now. Dunno why there are some ppl that just cant find a build for themselves.. They just use whatever is winning HoH. It isn't a build that is winning, but the efforts of a nice team.

dirtycash
05-06-2005, 21:52
You can complain all you want, but he's the one that probably wins. And as long as the devs don't fix it, you can't technically call it a exploit. All I can see is a guy who used a little briains.

Did I call it an exploit? I didn't think so.

If you saw my post before I said:

Call it what you want, every single one of us knows (whether we support it or not) thats is lame.

dirtycash
05-06-2005, 21:54
Verata's Aura is your friend.
Verata should be enough to rape them. But i guess Lulu isn't going to use this strat anymore. Too easy to counter.

I just dont know how they have that many minions is so little time. Would be nice to see how it's done.

Btw.. Necro Minion Masters are becoming a lot more popular now. Dunno why there are some ppl that just cant find a build for themselves.. They just use whatever is winning HoH. It isn't a build that is winning, but the efforts of a nice team.

I'm not certain how it works, as I've never had a minion master. But if you brought Veratas Aura... couldn't they do the same? Just swap minions back and forth?

Torm Shadowbane
05-06-2005, 22:35
I'm not certain how it works, as I've never had a minion master. But if you brought Veratas Aura... couldn't they do the same? Just swap minions back and forth?

Yes, you could. That is why I said this is obviously a crappy build because it is so easily countered. It is also why I said it looks to be more of a build meant for laughs. (Of course, as I also suggested it would be best to bring a Necro/Mesmer or a Mesmer/Necro with Arcane Echo and Veratas Aura along with a secondary Necromancer with Veratas Aura as well.... just to make sure you get control of them.)

If you can live through the attacks and get close enough to Lulu (or whoever the Minion creator is) you can Power Block him (Mesmer Elite skill). That would disable his Death Magic skills. If you wait until he is casting Veratas Sacrifice... then his Minions will soon have -10 Health Degen and die before he gets a chance to use VS again. (Or near enough where a well placed AE or two should take *most* of them out on the first hit.)

What I think would be truly insane is if you get two or even three of these Minion Masters fighting each other. Imagine that! Ha!

Metagenki
05-06-2005, 23:09
Call it what you want, every single one of us knows (whether we support it or not) thats is lame.
dirtycash knows, whether he supports it or not, that he's just trolling and doesn't believe anything he's posting here.

Is that fair? Don't tell me what I think, I honestly don't believe this is lame at all.

Actually, it is awesome.

Edit: Also, I'd like to think I'm free to make my characters as strong as I can, without having to limit myself just so that whatever I use doesn't get the nerf beatdown.

Sheep
06-06-2005, 01:32
Ok video up, thanks to kaelan for the host.

http://luminance.org/gw/videos/RaisingtheDead.avi

Buddah
06-06-2005, 01:55
Btw.. Necro Minion Masters are becoming a lot more popular now. Dunno why there are some ppl that just cant find a build for themselves.. They just use whatever is winning HoH. It isn't a build that is winning, but the efforts of a nice team.
The same is true with MtG. Net Decks came to dominate the game. Someone won big or made a good showing, their whole deck was listed on the net within a week. In two weeks you had a hundred clones of that deck, some with minor variants for the meta-game.


Side note. Faced a team in the HoH a little more than hour ago using this strat. It took 2 teams to even make them flinch. Mostly since some of my team slaughtered the Rezmer.

Hintshigen Elgin
06-06-2005, 02:14
Valid build or not, it's making HoH fights un-fun. Either go in with a build specifically made to counter this and then lose to the next group with a more 'normal' build. Or get slaughtered with your normal build from the get go.

I don't care if it's valid or not, I just don't want to see it in PvP fights, at the very least limit the amount a Necro can have at any one time.

dirtycash
06-06-2005, 02:19
dirtycash knows, whether he supports it or not, that he's just trolling and doesn't believe anything he's posting here.

Is that fair? Don't tell me what I think, I honestly don't believe this is lame at all.

Actually, it is awesome.

Edit: Also, I'd like to think I'm free to make my characters as strong as I can, without having to limit myself just so that whatever I use doesn't get the nerf beatdown.

Yes my near 1000 post self versus your 100, and I'm the troll. Pure genious.

Go play God mode on Doom or some ish.

spne
06-06-2005, 02:39
Edit: Also, I'd like to think I'm free to make my characters as strong as I can, without having to limit myself just so that whatever I use doesn't get the nerf beatdown.

So GW isnt your game.
Go play something like Diablo.
GW isnt about making your char powerful. Btw, one char means nothing.


Back to topic:
That strategy is *lame*. As someone said, to counter it you have to sacrifice your normal build. And i can bet that the devs didn't made the minions to be used THAT way.

Dunno why even i'm writing this.. The damage is done. Now we see lots and lots of ppl spamming: Necro with minions lvl 16 LFG.
It needs really a lot of skill to spam minions. :happy34:

TheSock
06-06-2005, 04:28
Holy bejaysus. I've never made a forum thread that has ever gone to 10+ replies! :eek:

So anyways, thanks for everyone's input. I still don't think it is a fair strategy, because it wasn't intended. Not EVERYTHING in games are tested to perfection, otherwise we would never see patches released with skill rebalances. Those that say it is just making fair use of what is given to all are probably the ones that used Half-Life 2 DM's character model exploits to change into an SMG-wielding headcrab, or found ways to go prone through a wall in Call of Duty (neither totally UNSTOPPABLE, so to speak, but pretty damn close).

Viable strategy my rear end, it WASN'T INTENDED, and considering how powerful it is, that REALLY matters.

Thank you and good night.

Kaelan
06-06-2005, 04:29
Back to topic:
That strategy is *lame*. As someone said, to counter it you have to sacrifice your normal build. And i can bet that the devs didn't made the minions to be used THAT way.

Dunno why even i'm writing this.. The damage is done. Now we see lots and lots of ppl spamming: Necro with minions lvl 16 LFG.
It needs really a lot of skill to spam minions. :happy34:
You're kidding, right? Have you seen the video sheep posted? You can see regular ele builds raping the minions. If you need to sacrifice your build to beat a minion build, you're just not any good at the game. It's seriously not hard at all, and when I was playing with them we were beaten by average builds multiple times.

spne
06-06-2005, 04:50
You're kidding, right? Have you seen the video sheep posted? You can see regular ele builds raping the minions. If you need to sacrifice your build to beat a minion build, you're just not any good at the game. It's seriously not hard at all, and when I was playing with them we were beaten by average builds multiple times.


As i said in other post: You CAN kill it. But not every build can. With my R/Mes im pretty much useless against lot of minions.

Dark Anima
06-06-2005, 05:48
As i said in other post: You CAN kill it. But not every build can. With my R/Mes im pretty much useless against lot of minions.

As I recall, single builds are not supposed to be good at everything.

Metagenki
06-06-2005, 06:03
Yes my near 1000 post self versus your 100, and I'm the troll. Pure genious.

Go play God mode on Doom or some ish.

So GW isnt your game.
Go play something like Diablo.
GW isnt about making your char powerful. Btw, one char means nothing.

I guess I'm winning pretty good if the best you can come up with is insults.

Torm Shadowbane
06-06-2005, 07:31
As i said in other post: You CAN kill it. But not every build can. With my R/Mes im pretty much useless against lot of minions.

Yes, well a lone warrior is pretty much screwed against a good ranger who knows how to use his skills, or a lone healing monk is screwed against a Mesmer who knows how to use his skills... should we then nerf those classes to make it "fair" (subjective term) to the lone warrior and monk? As someone who's main character is a warrior and secondary character is a monk I would answer that question: No.

Face it. This is Guild Wars. This isn't EverQuest or Diablo II or World of Warcraft or Dark Ages of Camelot -- this is Guild Wars. You WILL run into other builds that your build cannot beat. That means you adjust your build to take their build into consideration. It means you plan ahead. It means you think up new tactics and strategies. It means things are constantly changing. It, unfortunately for some, means you have to use the grey matter between your ears. That is what the developers of the game intended. Did they intend for any one group to have that many minions? I don't know. Only the developers can say, but the fact of the matter is that yes players do have that ability and until it is changed there is nothing wrong with someone using it.

This isn't like the Balthazar's Aura bug. This is easily countered. This is easily defeated. I don't even consider this a bug. Why? Because the developers gave Necromancers the ability to indefinitely sustain their minions (to a degree) with Verata's Sacrifice. They knew it would prolong a minions life and thus allow the Necromancer to have more than say, 14 Minions at any one time. I'd guess that's why they made Minions so crappy.

If the Developers change anything, I'd wager they'd go for how they were raising that many so quickly. Which means they'll break out the nerf bat on Monks or Mesmers, not Necromancers.

Sheep
06-06-2005, 07:43
Viable strategy my rear end, it WASN'T INTENDED, and considering how powerful it is, that REALLY matters.

Thank you and good night.

You're not a dev.

You have absolutely no position whatsoever to say what is/isn't intended by the devs so be quiet.

Good night.

Btw, I've been told that the basis for sacrificing players and generating minions from them is even in the GW strategy guide.

wind
06-06-2005, 07:58
You're not a dev.

You have absolutely no position whatsoever to say what is/isn't intended by the devs so be quiet.

Good night.

Btw, I've been told that the basis for sacrificing players and generating minions from them is even in the GW strategy guide.

Very true, he has no position to say.

Still ... the possiblity of him guessing the intentions, seems to be in his favor!

The question is not about "sacrificing players and generating minions", it's about "how many". And concidering the amount of minions will effect balance ... And balance is something the devs want, then his guess is right on. :surprise:

Sheep
06-06-2005, 08:17
Very true, he has no position to say.

Still ... the possiblity of him guessing the intentions, seems to be in his favor!

The question is not about "sacrificing players and generating minions", it's about "how many". And concidering the amount of minions will effect balance, something the devs want, then his guess is right on. :winking47

That assumes the strat is overpowered and honestly it's not, just because it's slightly different from the never ending horde of air ele spam or paladins that all have their own counters people scream nerf.

"Omg a new build, quick nerf it"

If it was all that uber I'd be running it now instead of in HoH with a completely different build.

Nadril
06-06-2005, 09:20
Wow.. thats uhm... alot.

but wouldn't it suck if the other team took out "LuLu" and all those minions and such went Rouge :surprise: :happy53: :happy53:

That would be about the funniest thing i'd ever see, lol all the teams die in HoH.

but yes.. thats either some incredible thinking, or an exploit.

Tuon
06-06-2005, 11:20
This is so easy to counter if you newbs thought for a minute.

ReZon
06-06-2005, 17:05
Regardless of how it was done or how to beat it, it's an awesome sight to see. :happy34:

showme
06-06-2005, 18:19
Maybe it is just me but wouldn't one Necro with 2 spells on their skillbar totally own this entire team?


Verata's Auro/Verata's Gaze

Third Quarter
06-06-2005, 19:07
Viable strategy my rear end, it WASN'T INTENDED, and considering how powerful it is, that REALLY matters.
This was exactly what the devs intended.

For one, it's a group of players combining their skills in creative ways to produce a competative team. For another, it's forcing other teams to think about counterstrategies.

(also, I think the idea of an undead factory consisting of repeated, suicidal human sacrifice, desecration of the corpse, and ressurection is cool as hell)

This isn't an exploit, a cheat, or anything of the sort. It's Guild Wars at its very best.

Taylor Polynomial
06-06-2005, 20:42
This was exactly what the devs intended.

For one, it's a group of players combining their skills in creative ways to produce a competative team. For another, it's forcing other teams to think about counterstrategies.

(also, I think the idea of an undead factory consisting of repeated, suicidal human sacrifice, desecration of the corpse, and ressurection is cool as hell)

This isn't an exploit, a cheat, or anything of the sort. It's Guild Wars at its very best.

So, after reading all 20 pages of this nonsense, I'm amazed that noone has posted what I'm about to post.

To quote Third Quarter -> "This was exactly what the devs intended."
He goes on to list some very valid reasons, and I fully agree with him.

However, I agree with him for different reasons. You see, I have reason to believe that our dear friends the Developers have known about this for a very long time. I invite anyone here who pre-ordered the game for the Beta-Weekend-Events to revisit the little Primas strategy guide included with your gamedisk and Event-Key. Flip through this little book, and you'll see precisely the strategy that this little war is about.

The conclusion, is that this strategy has been documented since before the Beta Weekend Events started.

Now, to those that argue that this wasn't the Developers intentions, please realize that your arguement now boils down to "I firmly believe that no developer bothered to take 5 minutes to see what Prima said about my game in the guide they to at least half of the people in the Beta-Weekend-Event. However, if I take the stance that the developer did read about this strategy and acknowledge it, he was too stupid to think that someone would be able to balloon this strategy to the previously seen pictures." Maybe it's just me as a professional programmer and mathematician, but when I see a strategy like this, I always look to it's extremes, and see what happens 'at infinity' so to speak.

Sorry if that was a bit harsh or flamish, but that is where the issue stands as far as the intentions of the developers.

I think it's pretty funny that I had just seen the tactic in that guide about a week before Lulu used. I thought to myself "Gee, that's hilarious, I'd like to try that, but I won't find a pickup team competent enough to do it." So to that end, my hat off to Lulu for letting me see the success of it, even if I had to see it through a flame-war post.

Taylor Polynomial

Svenn
06-06-2005, 20:55
So, after reading all 20 pages of this nonsense, I'm amazed that noone has posted what I'm about to post.You are not the first to note the strategy was previously published but did make the point more effectively.

Edit: The objective in battle is to win. Period. Method matters not. Thank goodness Lulu is apparently an officer in our military instead of some hostile country's. :thumbsup:

Pyro Gl
07-06-2005, 01:17
the way i see it, this game isn't about being able to click something faster than your opponent like a first person shooter, it's about coming up with really good builds. the game is MEANT to have very good builds like this one. This is no exploit, this is someone following the rules given and coming up with a brilliant solution. Personally i wouldn't care if this idea of an enourmous number of minions weren't nerfed. These ppl deserve to win until they are beaten. it's what the game is about. no one should say "that's not fair" because it is perfectly fair. they had no advantage over you.

LuLuTheMonk
07-06-2005, 01:55
Edit: The objective in battle is to win. Period. Method matters not. Thank goodness Lulu is apparently an officer in our military instead of some hostile country's. :thumbsup:

Actually, I was never an officer, I was enlisted in the USMC. ;)
Semper Fi.

**edit**
in case anybody missed it, the build has been posted.
http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=349616

Ritualistic Suicide
07-06-2005, 03:00
all i want to say after reading this entire thread is good on you LuLu, I cant wait to see your next build that people ***** about since you play the game like i wish i had time to play the game. I could sit there for hours reading skill descriptions and working out combos in my head. thats why i loved magic i would take 1 idea that was a little diffrent that people were not expecting and design a deck around it no matter what i had to do. Once i finaly get egnough stuff unlocked and i Hit the HoH thats all i plan on doing running outta the way team builds and watching people scream Nerf


Suicide

echidna
07-06-2005, 04:01
Good so we're done bashing Lulu then? ok great.

Someone thinks outside the box with a cool idea, and everyone gets up in arms due to an exploit. There are so many counters to this simply based on the fact that all the bone minions have no real intelligece. I think its genius the thought that went into creating this, if it gets nerfed oh well it had its time in the limelight, if not, the rest of us are very capable of defeating this.

deathmf
07-06-2005, 05:28
ya it is in that tournament survival guide that was in the preorder
to quote:
"Death Nova
Fill this build with Necro/Monks and load them up spells that summon undead minions. The goal is for some allies to kill themselves while others animate and then resurrect them with spells like Vengeance. Repeat this strategy until you have a large undead army, then cast Death Nova on your allies as they run in to battle. Use Touch Death Spells so allies die near the enemy, hitting them with Death Nova before reanimating again."

ultimastrike
10-06-2005, 18:12
Doesn't killing the necromancer cause the minions to go rogue? I've never played a necro before, but that seems like a decent way to counter this strategy.

If you're looking for ways to balance this out, consider verata's aura. Someone told me it has an extremely small area of effect. Suppose blood of the master and other mass-minion healing spells had a radius about that small? A necro would have a lot of trouble keeping more than four or five minions alive at a time, and these necro pvp groups wouldn't be able to support perhaps more than twenty or thirty minions. That seems like a decent balance.

Hurin66
13-06-2005, 04:26
Doesn't killing the necromancer cause the minions to go rogue? I've never played a necro before, but that seems like a decent way to counter this strategy.

If you're looking for ways to balance this out, consider verata's aura. Someone told me it has an extremely small area of effect. Suppose blood of the master and other mass-minion healing spells had a radius about that small? A necro would have a lot of trouble keeping more than four or five minions alive at a time, and these necro pvp groups wouldn't be able to support perhaps more than twenty or thirty minions. That seems like a decent balance.

yeah it does, but the basic response to killing the master is veretas aura by one of the other necros on the team.

Also minion based teams always take 2 veretas aura spells, to be safe since you cannot risking loosing those minions.

But basically its an easy build to defeat, all it requires is that the necros are either killed or shutdown (so they cant use veretas sacrifice and it takes 2 necros to maintain em + blood of the master), and drop frozen soil so they cant be ressed.

Also take note that 10 health degen is not the max for minions this is how it works: minions exist for a long time = 10 degen, then veretas sacrifice puts the health degen to exactly 0, now over the time that veretas sacrifice is active they gain more health degen, 2-3 so right before it runs out they have 3 degen, then it goes to 13 which is not possible and is capped back to 10, if veretas sacrifice is cast again the situation repeats.

Therefore in reality it takes both sacrifice and blood of the master to maintain the minions which means 2 necros constanly casting both.

Basically its a strategy thats really hard to pull off effectively vs a good team.

Hunt3r_kill4
13-06-2005, 06:01
It requires quick work, and depending on the arena, it might be either extremely difficult, or extremely easy.

Crimson Stigmata
13-06-2005, 20:07
Actually, I was never an officer, I was enlisted in the USMC. ;)
Semper Fi.

**edit**
in case anybody missed it, the build has been posted.
http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=349616

Semper Fi reminds me of Metal Gear 2 :D

Seriously folks, I'd only request this build to get nerfed if there's NO way you can counter it. Remember, everyone complained that W/Mos were overpowered. Now, I dont see a single W/Mo in the teams I join in at the tombs. (air eles)....

and yeah i read about the death nova build even in the preorder box.I wanted to try it out too. ^_^

Hurin66
14-06-2005, 02:01
Semper Fi reminds me of Metal Gear 2 :D

Seriously folks, I'd only request this build to get nerfed if there's NO way you can counter it. Remember, everyone complained that W/Mos were overpowered. Now, I dont see a single W/Mo in the teams I join in at the tombs. (air eles)....
^

LMAO, this build has so many effective counters its just laughable, I listed its basic problems in my above post.

Please dont go spouting noob rubbish without knowing what you are talking about.

Svenn
14-06-2005, 03:09
LMAO, this build has so many effective counters its just laughable, I listed its basic problems in my above post.

Please dont go spouting noob rubbish without knowing what you are talking about.Once again Hurin, you have completely missed the point.

Hurin66
14-06-2005, 03:27
No i have not missed the point i was responding to the above post where the point is quite obvious, and the posters lack of knowledge doubly so

Dark Anima
14-06-2005, 06:16
No i have not missed the point i was responding to the above post where the point is quite obvious, and the posters lack of knowledge doubly so

No...I do believe you have missed his point.

He is saying he believes a build shouldn't be nerfed unless it truly is unbeatable. And just because some people can't figure out ways to effectively counter it, doesn't mean that there aren't any. He cites the fact that in the past everyone thought that the W/Mo build was unbeatable, but it has since been proven to be anything but.

Cutter
14-06-2005, 08:32
LMAO, this build has so many effective counters its just laughable, I listed its basic problems in my above post.

Please dont go spouting noob rubbish without knowing what you are talking about.wow, did you even read his post? or just see the word "nerf" and start flying off the handle?

Crimson Stigmata
14-06-2005, 20:44
Svenn, Dark Anima, Cutter - thanks ^_^

Yeah someone needs to review his reading lessons or start learning. *rolleyes*

PS- I'm a she. I know the avy is misleading.lol

IncrediblyFrustrated
17-06-2005, 16:46
Aha! Ahahaha! This is my old Magic: The Gathering deck in True Form! ;)

God bless America. :p Who doesn't love roving armies of the undead, anyway?

And while I agree that this many is sort of ridiculous, let's say they cap the number of minions that a single necro can control. That will simply increase the number of necros on a team. *shrug* There are ways to counter this, but unless you've got the skills to do it, you're gonna be dead before you even have a chance. It's a rough situation, I think, and in no small part due to the demoralizing sight of ten thousand screaming bone constructs steadfastly lumbering toward you on your knocking knees. ;)

Lutzy
18-06-2005, 07:06
the way i see it, this game isn't about being able to click something faster than your opponent like a first person shooter, it's about coming up with really good builds. the game is MEANT to have very good builds like this one. This is no exploit, this is someone following the rules given and coming up with a brilliant solution. Personally i wouldn't care if this idea of an enourmous number of minions weren't nerfed. These ppl deserve to win until they are beaten. it's what the game is about. no one should say "that's not fair" because it is perfectly fair. they had no advantage over you.

Time out, I'm throwing a video game flag here.

Clicking fast == first person shooter?

Come on, there's a lot more to it than that.

Derek Elayen
26-08-2005, 16:46
Yeah this is easy..but I wont post the build :happy53:

Pyro Gl
26-08-2005, 18:40
Time out, I'm throwing a video game flag here.

Clicking fast == first person shooter?

Come on, there's a lot more to it than that.
alright whatever, but you get the idea. First person shooters, by no means being bad, involve good aim, good reflexes, and a bit of strategy. Guild wars on the other hand, is 95%+ strategy, and unless you play an interrupter, reflexes aren't that important.

If someone comes up with a build like this one, it means their good at the game, not cheating.

turd herder
27-08-2005, 09:54
Just make something better, or don't fight them. There's people that will overuse the same build (cookie cutter style) just to win and it will definately get nerfed when overused. Every game does that. The exploits will also get fixed in time. The main goal is to try and make something better. Get another necro and use veratu's. I think that would make the guy blush a little. Having his own minions turn on him :) You can win, you just need to use your brain instead of asking someone else what to do. With Guild Wars, everything is possible.

KeirouMiyaichi
28-08-2005, 00:10
He's exploiting skills.
Unyielding aura currently does a permanent revive, with full life and energy. It costs 5 energy, 3 second cast time, 45 second reuse, and (Here's the buggy part) doesn't put an enchant on the target or a -1 energy/enchant binding on the caster. Deaths after being revived with it don't incur extra death penalty either.

So everything is working right, except that once you're revived with it there's no way to kill you except by the way you'd have to kill someone who was revived with a proper resurrect spell, no way for the reviver to release (And kill the revivee), and no penalty for the reviver to maintain the revivee. Sounds like a res signet replacement to me (At least until it gets fixed, here's to hoping they'll fix it fast!), for those of us who aren't currently carrying an elite but want a fast, powerful resurrect to use in the arena.


2 words... strip enchantment

Hendrixbrother
28-08-2005, 00:47
Ok, people, realize that this happened OVER 2 MONTHS AGO! I don't know why you'd bring this up now, this is a thing of the past. Lulu, and everyone else, have moved on. So should you.

MightyDenis
28-08-2005, 04:46
OMG!!!!!!

That must be a big or something. Wat lvl were they?

sophistry
22-09-2005, 22:37
lol i saw a vid of this and well......daaaaaamn but lol last i checked necros had no problem with the dead so why would they worry about dieing lmao its hardly and exploit just some seriously demonic thinking and just for that i love it XD its just crazy XD nice going lulu rofl btw im gona assume that the next build to be whined about is the foc spike team lol saw the vid for that and lmao i was wondering how long it was gona take someone to use foc XD i use it on my w/ne in pve all the time so i can see how 6 focs could do that much damage XD :happy34:

Bleeding Mascara
22-09-2005, 23:11
My question is this. Why didn't he use Minions instead of fiends :P

Minions=double the ownage.

Dr Funk
22-09-2005, 23:51
Well, for Unyielding Aura, a lot of people are looking at it the wrong way. It's an elite version of Vengeance, where instead of a 30 second timer they get to stay alive so long as they stay in range and you maintain the enchantment. If you double-click the Unyielding Aura button to cancel it, they die instantly. That's really standard. Also, if you have a big team of sacrificers--like two or three--you can churn out a lot of corpses pretty fast. With those people dying you get a lot of Energy as well. If you get a 15 in Soul Reaping that esentially makes each Bone Horror free. Someone asked why not Minions? That's probably why. 15 or 16 Soul Reaping lets a Horror be a 'free' cast (one death, one horror, +15 and then -15 energy) and then you just summon Fiends as soon as you have a spare 25. With people using BiP and stuff to kill themselves the minion master could be getting a fairly substantial buff in terms of energy regen. Plus, spamming area-effect sacrifice heals to kill yourself help keeps the team alive.

Anyway, there's a lot of ways to make a giant pile of minions. In this case it was something like 70 or so, which would require 3 people to die about 19 times each at least, assuming none of them actually died while waiting for the team to come. The real question is what skill is LuLu exploiting, but what kind of corpsefactory build are they running to make it possible?

Gangrel
23-09-2005, 13:30
Dont know if it has been posted or not (dont have time to read throu all 2 pages.. ) but Edge of Extinction ownes this build...

Poisoned one
25-09-2005, 08:22
I didn't read through EVERY page of this...so i'm not sure if this is posted. But here is a video of this fun shinanigans.Rasing the Dead (http://files.filefront.com/Raising_the_Dead/;3870317;;/fileinfo.html)

At one point it shows a necro with only one skilled equiped...bip...


The video make you go "wtf"

LuLuTheMonk
25-09-2005, 16:05
Anyway, there's a lot of ways to make a giant pile of minions. In this case it was something like 70 or so, which would require 3 people to die about 19 times each at least, assuming none of them actually died while waiting for the team to come. The real question is what skill is LuLu exploiting, but what kind of corpsefactory build are they running to make it possible?

Again. here is the build.

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=349616

2 corpses:
Nec/xxx
BIP, + life degen weapon

2 Ressers
Me/mo
Restore Life, misc. healing/protection spells

2 Minionators
Nec/xxx
16 death, 13 soul reaping
Animate Bone Fiend, Animate Bone Horror, Taste of Death, Death Nova, Verata's sacrifice, Blood of the master, putrid explosion, veratas aura.

2 monks
mo/rangers i think 2 of these were split between the 2 monks.
Winnowing, Fertile Season, Favorable Winds, Predatory Season.

Unyielding aura is actually a horrible choice due to the 60r.


My question is this. Why didn't he use Minions instead of fiends :P

Minions=double the ownage.

Winnowing, Favorable winds, and predatory season :happy34:

And a big :happy34: to sheep for the Raising the Dead video. Still one of my favorites. Flareway is pretty hilarious though.

aspitis
26-09-2005, 02:37
Actually I'd use...

2 N/Me
16 death, 15 soul reaping
Virata's Sacrifice
Arcane Echo
Echo
Blood of the Master
Bone Fiend
Bone Horror
Dark Bond
Rez Sig

2 Mez/Nec
16 fast, 15 blood
Offering of Blood
Blood Renewal
Well of Blood (For when you start to slaughter the enemy)
Whatever else you want.

2 Me/Mo
16 fast, 15 prot
Ressurect
Aegis
Martyr
Purge Cond
Whatever else you want.

2 standard heal monks.

Sac, raise, rez, sac, raise rez, sac, raise, rez, ect....

3 minutes of this, netting probably at least 30-40 minions, while using Viratas 3 times, and Blood of the master to keep em alive. Before the enemy comes to you, and you can just keep making them if they sit there and watch you, netting you 70+ minions to walk into them and laugh.

You could drop the monks and just ad another rezzer and saccer, but you still need to keep yer saccing necros alive for this to work.

Cain Gregor
30-09-2005, 00:53
I encountered something like this in team arena. Our solution was to maintain our deflective or defensive stances/enchantments as much as we could to mitigate the horror/fiend damage, shutdown the "fast-resser", kill the guy creating minions so all the minions lost control and attacked their team, slaughter the fast-resser with the "help" of the uncontrolled minons, and then mop up the rest of the enemy party.

We were up against something in the area of 30+ horrors/fiends too - it was downright silly. But we managed to take them down with a flawless victory.

Oh yeah - the fact that we had a life bond monk in the party helped a LOT too since it effectively neutered the damage that the horrors/fiends were doing.

MetasynMan
30-09-2005, 01:08
Would it work if you made the "bodies" into N/Mo and used vengeance on them? They could then use Contemplation of Purity to remove their own enchantment and die again. The recharge might not make it worth it, but it casts faster and it'd only take the one spell to kill themselves again. And if you've got a Me/Mo, they could easily echo chain vengeance.

scamPOR
30-09-2005, 02:49
Actually I'd use...

2 N/Me
16 death, 15 soul reaping
Virata's Sacrifice
Arcane Echo
Echo
Blood of the Master
Bone Fiend
Bone Horror
Dark Bond
Rez Sig

2 Mez/Nec
16 fast, 15 blood
Offering of Blood
Blood Renewal
Well of Blood (For when you start to slaughter the enemy)
Whatever else you want.

2 Me/Mo
16 fast, 15 prot
Ressurect
Aegis
Martyr
Purge Cond
Whatever else you want.

2 standard heal monks.

Sac, raise, rez, sac, raise rez, sac, raise, rez, ect....

3 minutes of this, netting probably at least 30-40 minions, while using Viratas 3 times, and Blood of the master to keep em alive. Before the enemy comes to you, and you can just keep making them if they sit there and watch you, netting you 70+ minions to walk into them and laugh.

You could drop the monks and just ad another rezzer and saccer, but you still need to keep yer saccing necros alive for this to work.

16 fast + 15 blood is not possible :(

Archenine Paranoia
30-09-2005, 07:04
Deleted, just in case I want to use the build myself (I think it's better than above)

Buffalo Chip
02-10-2005, 02:59
It's a Minion Master build, the most important thing u need is a suicider necro, usually with BiP, they simple build up an army while other teams are busy fighting each other in HoH, its VERY hard to get to HoH however.

beemander
02-10-2005, 03:15
It's a Minion Master build, the most important thing u need is a suicider necro, usually with BiP, they simple build up an army while other teams are busy fighting each other in HoH, its VERY hard to get to HoH however.
well this post start way back in june smite wasnt that strong then.

king alfonso
03-10-2005, 03:10
LuLu the monk ftw!
LuLu was amazing exploiting the 1 corpse also many people get jealous and they start talking **** like LuLu steals builds. But nobody here even admits they steal builds like think of IWAY o i started it man if i had a ****ing dime for every time i heard that whatever but LuLus build works and the reason being is that this build mostly works in alatar maps and maps that have more then 2 teams which gives your team the time to create the minions while every 1 else fights or talks and waits. So you see the reason why theres billions of bone horrors omg was because you gave him time to make that many :D


()xxxxxxxx{:::::::::::::::::::>



<------- tigers fury pvp

kamotu
03-10-2005, 06:55
I know I've seen vids of this somewhere...The suicide necro LITERALLY died AS SOON as he was rezzed. INSTANTLY. made for a fiend. do it again. and again. Until round starts.

Shortyafter
03-10-2005, 07:47
I participated in one of these builds once. We had a minion necro, a saccer, and a monk with heal area. At the beginning of each round the saccer casted as many sacrafice spells as possible until he died and then the minion necro raised a horror. I think we had a fast-cast resser too who used their res spells to keep the minion supply endless. The monk would then cast heal area on the minions to keep them alive. Rinse and repeat.

Well, turns out we got owned about 10 times trying to do this. It's obviously not something any newb can pick up and do like some builds I know. ;)

scamPOR
03-10-2005, 08:26
Sup runes + IoW = instantly dead

Then run 16 fast cast + resurrect and nice fast bodies, you can actually start resing and as long as the minion is made prior to them being res'd its all good.

prince
03-10-2005, 13:03
I participated in one of these builds once. We had a minion necro, a saccer, and a monk with heal area. At the beginning of each round the saccer casted as many sacrafice spells as possible until he died and then the minion necro raised a horror. I think we had a fast-cast resser too who used their res spells to keep the minion supply endless. The monk would then cast heal area on the minions to keep them alive. Rinse and repeat.

Well, turns out we got owned about 10 times trying to do this. It's obviously not something any newb can pick up and do like some builds I know. ;)

i've done it in TA.. we got like 20 bone fiends. but the people were smart..they'd jsut run around and yeha..owned us :(

Link Boy Hero
04-10-2005, 23:06
No...I do believe you have missed his point.

He is saying he believes a build shouldn't be nerfed unless it truly is unbeatable. And just because some people can't figure out ways to effectively counter it, doesn't mean that there aren't any. He cites the fact that in the past everyone thought that the W/Mo build was unbeatable, but it has since been proven to be anything but.
the pray tell why have there been more Ranger Nerfs then any other class, no build has been made that is unbeatable, but yet they were nerfed anyways, on the same token Warriors get beefed up with every update, mostly becasue of lask of player skill IMO anyways, its hard to balance a game when the people that play one class genrealy suck so therefor you make their skills stronger, while the peopl who stick to another class learn to use their skills thus makeing them stronger.

gorpfast
09-10-2005, 09:24
70 undead allies killed, simultaeneously, in only three words -

Edge Of Extinction



don't be surprised, however, when it lags both teams out of the game 8D

calderstrake
09-10-2005, 09:26
This isn't an exploit, a cheat, or anything of the sort. It's Guild Wars at its very best.
Exactly. The younger players on this board are always so quick to judge a good build as an exploit, hax, cheat, luck, anything BUT skill. The maturing of a community is always the most hair-pulling thing to wait for...

phantomracoon
10-10-2005, 06:54
she had 6 mins....not too hard

Buffalo Chip
10-10-2005, 07:05
This thread is really getting some attention, I bet 75% of this thread wasn't even read. It's already been explained. I did this build and it's very good if you have time but usually you don't in HoH. Any AoE kills off most of the minions and Verata's Aura would take them all. This build is very fun but not very effective. It works great against spirits because you have a lot of time.

Aire
10-10-2005, 09:39
Verata's Aura is PB only - so it wouldn't take many at all i'm afraid...

It was tested by someone in this thread :o

/Aire :)

Dutch Mike
14-10-2005, 09:12
Here are SOME of 103290903892503 counters there are for this build,and since they get 2x holy damage they're WAY too easy to counter.
Anyway:
- Use Judges Insight and Barrage (Prolly kills 6 of those minions/horrors/fiends in one single shot)
- Use Signet of Judgement (Big AoE,prolly killing some of the minions too)
- Or another holy damage spell.. They always do double damage since it is HOLY damage.. And minions are UNholy ><

Greetz,Mike

PS: It really is hilarious if you see 6 minions at a time getting killed by one barrage of you :p :lol: :lol:

x AdDiCt x
14-10-2005, 09:18
they have a fast cast me/mo using light of dwayna...they keep dying and using EoE bomb on the other team im guessing and the Me/Mo is rezing as the necro makes bone horrors

trueno
14-10-2005, 12:28
lol, all the minions will died very soon with eoe bomb.

omagad
16-10-2005, 03:08
*ignores the bajilion pages*
ive read only the 1st 2 pages coz i dont have much time.. just wanted to say a few days a go i fought him\someone using the same build in TA in the ice map.. we had a party member laging so we wasted a minute waiting for him to load and then we rushed to the other base.. half way through i started hearing the summoning noises (my main char is a necro.. ill recocnize that sound from sleep) we still couldnt see anything but i knew its not going to be pretty..
few sec later we got around the corner and there infront of us stood a massive army of 20~40 lv 18 fiends and horros (in 4vs4 arena) my feelings were somewhere betwen fear and joy (necro thing.. we like it big :]) anyway.. i adviced my party to back off to some kinde of a wall to block the arrows.. well they ignored me >_> rushed in and got slaughtered..
we ressed soon after and the other team with all their minions rushed to us.. again 2 of my teamates attacked mindlessly and got killed(i think they took some with them tho) but this time the monk was smart enough to stay back with me o'o luckely the frozen river is narrow and the fiends are not smart enough to go in the 'base' alone AND i was just testing judges insight on my warrior :]]] 137 base dmg on fiends=pwnage!
ok so the fiends were shooting aimlessly at the wall (that or the monk had good armor coz hes hp didnt seem to move) so the necro had to go into our "base" right to my axe range :] took some time coz he was using dark bond but eventually he ate up all the remaining minions (taste of death) and we won. yes we did. agaisnt the massive minion army :]
they had a necro a mesmeser a warrior and something else i think it was a necro not sure tho.. most likely was... BIP=fast death+mana for the MM

needles to say if it was any other map where the minions could attack us with large numbers we would be pwned :P