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Tribo
15-06-2005, 03:05
I remember when i first bought guildwars, w/mo was the most popular build, but now in dueling in Tomb of primeval, i noticed that some of the strongest build and the most common one, is the "Spike Group" which means, 3 monks, 1 mesmer, and 4 air ele. Melee groups die so easily against this group. So my questions is, are warriors not that important in pvp anymore?

Torin Darkwoode
15-06-2005, 03:09
I remember when i first bought guildwars, w/mo was the most popular build, but now in dueling in Tomb of primeval, i noticed that some of the strongest build and the most common one, is the "Spike Group" which means, 3 monks, 1 mesmer, and 4 air ele. Melee groups die so easily against this group. So my questions is, are warriors not that important in pvp anymore?

I suspect GuildWars PvP will be cyclic in nature. You're going to start see a lot of builds to combat the ele build soon - think mesmers and rangers. Once a glut of those classes becomes established, then melee groups will resurface to combat those.

MasterNightfall
15-06-2005, 03:19
W/Mos were *never* needed in PvP.

That is not to say that its not nice to have a warrior or two. Some less-popular, but quite effective builds use more.

IIacidII
15-06-2005, 03:45
I remember when i first bought guildwars, w/mo was the most popular build, but now in dueling in Tomb of primeval, i noticed that some of the strongest build and the most common one, is the "Spike Group" which means, 3 monks, 1 mesmer, and 4 air ele. Melee groups die so easily against this group. So my questions is, are warriors not that important in pvp anymore?

W's Have many Short Commings in PVP


Its very hard to tank something with a brain
W attacking you? Run, Porblem sloved =P
Many attacks have Amour Penatration
Come on, you gotta admit, lighting looks a hellalot coller then a sword swinging =P



While E's can

Stay at range
Pick anytargert
Do Many Differnt hex's etc with a big Engery box
3-4 Shot the Monk
Blow up things =P

Interlude
15-06-2005, 03:54
W's Have many Short Commings in PVP


Its very hard to tank something with a brain
W attacking you? Run, Porblem sloved =P
Many attacks have Amour Penatration
Come on, you gotta admit, lighting looks a hellalot coller then a sword swinging =P



While E's can

Stay at range
Pick anytargert
Do Many Differnt hex's etc with a big Engery box
3-4 Shot the Monk
Blow up things =P



As is running from someone with a brain.
Cripple. I'd like to see you run now.
Yes. Yes they do.
I'd rather look bad and win, than look good and lose.



You'll get 1/2 spell off before the W's at your feet (Sprint).
Yep. (Sprint)
Anyone can string together skills.
Don't understand.
Actually they can't, seeing as there's an invisible wall surrounding most things.

LiQuID StEeL
15-06-2005, 03:58
every time i have any urge to play PvP, I just switch to my monk. Everyone hates my W/Mo :(

gandalfrockman
15-06-2005, 04:00
People finally learned that mesmers and rangers dont suck. Thats what happened. Warriors are still useful, they just cant be thrown around by skilless noobs the way they could before.

neoflame
15-06-2005, 04:03
While E's can

3-4 Shot the Monk

Only if the monk's AFK or something.

Warriors are still useful because they can generate damage continuously, without needing any energy necessarily. They're also difficult to disrupt (hello, Mr. Ele casting Chain Lightning, meet Concussion Shot) and shutdowns can usually be dealt with by allied monks.

Not saying that Warriors are perfect or anything; just that the biggest reason they're not very common in lightning ele spike damage builds is because they're not necessary for them. Flavor of the month, you see.

s p i r i t u a l
15-06-2005, 04:16
no offense or anything but the W/M steriotype is ridiculous, i mean Warriors only have 20 energy, plus they have to use some for their own skills (seeking blade, for example) and orison of healing is 5 and healing breeze is 10. I just dont see how there is room for skills and healing, plus you have to space out the attribute poins... btw, i beleive warriors are still need for PvP for the simple reason that warriors are like you "meat shield", i mean... withour warriors is like a guy charging into battle naked.

Lil Jimmy Norton
15-06-2005, 04:22
I only recently made an Elementalist for PVP while I've had a Warrior since I started playing Guild Wars, and I find it much, MUCH easier to do everything as an Elementalist except maybe killing a Mesmer.

Melee attacks are too easily avoided by good players and there are too many ways to avoid them (blinding, stance, skill) so bringing a counter skill isn't going to fix the problem.

neoflame
15-06-2005, 04:22
no offense or anything but the W/M steriotype is ridiculous
Agreed, sort of... but for different reasons.

i mean Warriors only have 20 energy, plus they have to use some for their own skills (seeking blade, for example) and orison of healing is 5 and healing breeze is 10. I just dont see how there is room for skills and healing, plus you have to space out the attribute poins...
Adrenaline exists for a reason. So do offhand foci. And zealous weapons.

Spreading into 3 attributes isn't significantly more difficult than just doing 2 attributes. W/Mo's (assuming we're just talking about self-healing W/Mo's anyway, there are quite a few using Smiting) generally don't heal anyone but themselves; anything else is a waste of energy.

btw, i beleive warriors are still need for PvP for the simple reason that warriors are like you "meat shield", i mean... withour warriors is like a guy charging into battle naked.
Very few (I'd rather say none, but that might be unfair) intelligent PvPers will go for a Warrior first, especially with much more appetizing targets like Monks and Elementalists.

Zero
15-06-2005, 04:29
PvP is a cyclone of builds atm. We've had the Warrior heavy, moved onto teh Air ele (to battle the warrior heavy) and now we're onto ranger heavy builds using lots of rituals or en-mass conditions.

I see the next being Mesmers/Necro's for their skills ignoring ranger resistance. I suspect we'll also see a big jump in hammer warriors. Peopel have learnt that warriors get ignored as targets so they've jumped onto the hamemr wagon to carry knockdown (W/E with knockdown from weapon and water trident/Slow) and possibly interrupts in the near future.

salaboB
15-06-2005, 04:36
Nothing quite as annoying as a hammer warrior knocking you down over and over while you're trying to cast spells :P

Tribo
15-06-2005, 04:44
no offense or anything but the W/M steriotype is ridiculous, i mean Warriors only have 20 energy, plus they have to use some for their own skills (seeking blade, for example) and orison of healing is 5 and healing breeze is 10. I just dont see how there is room for skills and healing, plus you have to space out the attribute poins... btw, i beleive warriors are still need for PvP for the simple reason that warriors are like you "meat shield", i mean... withour warriors is like a guy charging into battle naked.

Charging into a battle naked? I highly doubt it.... ive gone to HoH (even though i didnt win) without a warrior we do so well, its funny because any of the guys who have been in a spike group knows how fast it is to kill a warrior. 3-2-1 chain! next thing u know ur meat shield is dead in less than 2 seconds.

Tohoya
15-06-2005, 05:08
no offense or anything but the W/M steriotype is ridiculous, i mean Warriors only have 20 energy, plus they have to use some for their own skills (seeking blade, for example) and orison of healing is 5 and healing breeze is 10. I just dont see how there is room for skills and healing, plus you have to space out the attribute poins... btw, i beleive warriors are still need for PvP for the simple reason that warriors are like you "meat shield", i mean... withour warriors is like a guy charging into battle naked.

Most just take W/Mo for ressurect since wars have such poor energy that they can't take advantage of their secondary profession much anyway.

Warriors are good for consistent damage. The air eles can deal damage in spikes, but if one was to look at total damage over a battle from an air ele versus a competent warrior, I'd bet the warrior comes ahead in terms of damage. Spike damage is popular right now because prot monks were so scarce- once people start to wise up and run more prot monks, damage over time will become the rage again.

IdiotWithACause
15-06-2005, 05:10
Warriors are a good addition to a well-organized team. I don't get what the fuss is all about, it's pretty much common sense. Warrior's armor bonus gives them about a 25% damage reduction against elemental damage and about 50% against physical, depending on armor type, and that's without a shield. Any team that wants to try to spike warriors can go ahead. The warriors will go down slower, take more mana and possibly more exhaustion, and may not go down at all. Either way, the main damage dealers, the spikers, will be left unbothered.

Warriors are very useful for many reasons in Tombs. Relic running is an obvious one. They make good callers as well. As some buffoon mentioned earlier, yes, monks run away from warriors when the warriors attack them. I'd rather have a monk running around than sitting there and healing. Also.. there is something called Battle Rage, and it goes well with a little something else called Bull's Strike. Please understand the good warrior builds before you strike out to call warriors altogether worthless in PvP.

A rounded team should always bring 1-2 warriors, just to balance the team out and make reversal of fortune hurt less. I would much rather have a reversal of fortune negate a sword attack that hits once every 1.4 seconds than an air elemental spell which causes exhaustion.

Tribo
15-06-2005, 08:12
A rounded team should always bring 1-2 warriors, just to balance the team out and make reversal of fortune hurt less. I would much rather have a reversal of fortune negate a sword attack that hits once every 1.4 seconds than an air elemental spell which causes exhaustion.

A rounded team dont need to bring 1-2 warriors, ide rather bring a good bone fiend necro -_-

Vault Dweller
15-06-2005, 10:53
I think that one major problem with the typical W/Mo combo that I've seen all over the GuildWars map, is the mentality of the people using this build.

You tend to find that these people like to solo, with their ability to tank most enemies, and them heal themselves when they get hurt, you end up with an energiser fighter, that can PVE with style and just keep on going...

The problem occurs in PVP, where that mentality simply doesn't belong. Instead of taking say, Mending (Which will cripple the warriors already meagre energy regeneration) warriors need to be taking Hamstring, or knockdown attacks. There are plenty of tactical skills that Warriors can use to heavily contribute to the group, even though this annoying new trend of spike groups throw up Wards against Melee all over the place, if the Warriors have Monk as a secondary, they can stiull have some pretty damn usefull skills.

I, personally use a W/R, and love the build. I take a bow into combat as well as my Sword/Shield combat. The bow is mainly used for choking gas, as well as to take down runners (if they manage to avoid my Hamstring ;) ).

So don't simply reject W/Mo players from your team... Just educate them.

Vault

lred
15-06-2005, 12:27
I remember when i first bought guildwars, w/mo was the most popular build, but now in dueling in Tomb of primeval, i noticed that some of the strongest build and the most common one, is the "Spike Group" which means, 3 monks, 1 mesmer, and 4 air ele. Melee groups die so easily against this group. So my questions is, are warriors not that important in pvp anymore?
Anything dies easily against 4 offensive ele's, unless you have at least 2 good protection monks. Of course the mesmer is trouble for the monks protection enchantments, so it might not be a bad move to have some warriors go after the mesmer first.

The problem with warriors is that many of them see themselves as the primary offensive class and primary damage dealers. While they attack the enemies monks, they leave their own casters undefended. Also they stretch out the battle field, forcing their healers to stand amongst enemies.
These casters then have to defend themselves instead of doing what they are there for: do massive damage to the enemy and heal the team.

I'm not much of a strategist or tactician myself, but i do know that rule 1 is that you will have to adapt your plan to the circumstances. It is not wise to always go with the "warriors attack the monks" strategy.

Creed
15-06-2005, 12:29
When GW went live, alot of people chose to go War/Monk based on a few things.

-Warrior is usually a staple class in all mmorpgs.

-Alot of people tried 4 v 4 arenas like ascalon and yaks bend, noticed how well warriors seemed to work in these early arenas and rerolled.

-Healing breeze, healing breeze healing breeze. This singular spell is one of the main reasons a War/Mon build even works. 10 energy, ok pretty exspensive for a warrior, recast time is about 3 secounds, and the health it regains is intense.

Of course there's alot more reasons, those are just a few of the main ones.

Reasons people have changed to Air ele fad:

-At first glance, Air ele's where created as a counter to warriors really, which is funny since Necromancers curse magic is to warriors as mesmer is to casters.

-Air ele's spike damage build was never designed for warriors destruction sure it helps in that, but the reason these are now common is their ability to end a battle fast. All a team really has to do is survive the initial anslaught, and the Air spike damage build is significantly weakened due to exhaustion.

-Spells such as enervating charge and blinding flash, effectivly take warriors out of the picture. Guild, made HoH teams are always going to come up with new builds like this, as of the moment, the only thing which is making Air elementalist a viable build is numbers. A singular Air ele is alot less effective than 2 or 3.. Spike damage works better at taking a person down from 50% > 0% health, due to the fact it's spike damage :p and you're unlikly going to be able to keep the damage output up.

The problem with warriors in guildwars:

-No way to self remove blind.
-No way to remove weakness.
(Obviously not counting monk backup due to the fact not all warriors should be forced to go monk backup.)
-The warriors best attribute is usless with either of these 2 status effects on him. The attribute i speak of is sustained damage. A warrior due to not needing energy for his main bulk of damage can survive and do the most damage in the fray over a long period of time. I.e. No downtime.

-Not enough 'skull crack' type attacks. Meaning, they do not have enough daze inflicting attacks.

Even if it was only a 2 secound daze from a skill, it'd mean if a caster tries to react right away after this attack they will triple their cast time, allowing a warrior to keep them busy etc.

Upcoming builds: Mesmer. Mesmer and mesmer. You'll see the rise of alot more mesmers eventually. Protection monks, these will also spring up as defences vs. many of the current dominating builds.

TW III
15-06-2005, 12:57
no offense or anything but the W/M steriotype is ridiculous, i mean Warriors only have 20 energy, plus they have to use some for their own skills (seeking blade, for example) and orison of healing is 5 and healing breeze is 10. I just dont see how there is room for skills and healing, plus you have to space out the attribute poins...


Every decent War/Mo uses smiting.



btw, i beleive warriors are still need for PvP for the simple reason that warriors are like you "meat shield", i mean... withour warriors is like a guy charging into battle naked.


Tanking is useless.

lred
15-06-2005, 15:07
The problem with warriors in guildwars:

-No way to self remove blind.
-No way to remove weakness.
Doesn't every class have similar problems, in that no class can be entirely self-sufficient?

Rizzy
15-06-2005, 15:56
W/mos in most PVE matches and some PVP matches I've seen are just selfish healing hogs who save it for themselves, and not the guy standing next to them whos getting hit. >.>

Sure they're helpful coz they can res too like a monk.

Rizzy
15-06-2005, 15:59
Doesn't every class have similar problems, in that no class can be entirely self-sufficient?
Well.. thats the beauty of Mes/warriors.

Our Illusionary Weapon is not effected by blind nor weakness..
Its our advantage and disadvantage.

If you're helping out a bunch of lowbies for example, a lvl 20 warrior there would be doing a heck of a lot of damage with their sword that can kill a char in 1 hit...

Mes/w ... do 40 standard.

However the real advantage comes to when we're all 20s... and fighting lvl 24s..

some of the warriors might strike lower than 40 for a period of time without adrenaline, while the Mes/w are just striking it out 40 40 40 40 really fast doubled up with Flurry.

Same principle applies for PVP.

XeroTheta
15-06-2005, 16:23
Yea, the tanking does seem kind of useless. Warriors need a taunt skill so that all PvE or PVP enemies are forced to attack them and cannot change targets for X amount of time. This would mean Warriors can actually, you know, be the meat shield.

I've tried hamstring and sprint, but the only warrior combo that I've had any success with (as a W/R) is Sever artery, Apply Poison, and Gash with final thrust

Vault Dweller
15-06-2005, 16:26
Yea, the tanking does seem kind of useless. Warriors need a taunt skill so that all PvE or PVP enemies are forced to attack them and cannot change targets for X amount of time. This would mean Warriors can actually, you know, be the meat shield.

I've tried hamstring and sprint, but the only warrior combo that I've had any success with (as a W/R) is Sever artery, Apply Poison, and Gash with final thrust

Try pre-ambling the final thrust with a galrath slash. Works wonders ;) Also, savage slash/skullcracker makes warriors a deadly advasary, especially if you are a W/R and taking Troll Unguent.

Vault

Viri
15-06-2005, 16:27
You have to look at warriors on larger scale not only 1 on 1 combat. In GW there are mostly 8/8 battles. Warrior can deal large amount of damage when used properly and supported by team. Monks are defensive side of the team and earth eles in some degree not warriors. W/Mo with healing or protection is good pve or 4/4 arenas not for 8/8 pvp.

TW III
15-06-2005, 16:58
Warriors need a taunt skill so that all PvE or PVP enemies are forced to attack them and cannot change targets for X amount of time. This would mean Warriors can actually, you know, be the meat shield.



Worst idea ever. I'll put that in my sig.


edit: Damn no signatures.

Vault Dweller
15-06-2005, 17:32
Worst idea ever. I'll put that in my sig.


edit: Damn no signatures.

Actually, I think Taunts are an exellent idea, and affirms the Warriors status of "Meat Shield" in PVP.

After all, where's the point in having someone with more armor than a sherman tank, if no-one is going to bother attacking him until last?

Vault

Herthbul
15-06-2005, 17:45
Because the Warrior deals damage and serves other purposes (knockdown, "Fear Me!", etc...) very efficiently. The reason this game has so many anti-Warrior skills is because the Warrior himself if left unchecked would be literally unstoppable. And that's why there are many ways to cure the Warrior of his weaknesses. Blind and Crippled can easily be removed via Martyr or Mend Ailment, and the hexes take a Remove/Smite Hex. The key for most classes is communication, but for a Warrior it takes a bit more.

mikeydavison
15-06-2005, 18:32
Because the Warrior deals damage and serves other purposes (knockdown, "Fear Me!", etc...) very efficiently. The reason this game has so many anti-Warrior skills is because the Warrior himself if left unchecked would be literally unstoppable. And that's why there are many ways to cure the Warrior of his weaknesses. Blind and Crippled can easily be removed via Martyr or Mend Ailment, and the hexes take a Remove/Smite Hex. The key for most classes is communication, but for a Warrior it takes a bit more.
These are good points. I thought I'd add that W/N can be almost entirely self-sufficient when it comes to condition removal. Plague Touch can work wonders in PvP.

Last night I nearly died laughing during a PvP match because of Plague Touch. I was trying to kill/disrupt a monk, and a ranger on his team tried to keep me away from the monk by using Pin Down. Of course, the crippled condition caused by Pin Down was transferred to the targeted monk as soon as it was applied to me, which lead to one very surprised, angry, and ultimately dead monk :)

Ritualistic Suicide
15-06-2005, 18:43
why do people only think W/mo is the only good war build. Personally im working on a Hamer war build for PvP and monk isnt going to be my secondary. I have a hammer W/me and they work suprisingly well. Go after the casters and use spell blocker skills from the me and knock down skills from the w. you can shut casters down the only problem is you some times end up being a mana sink which is annoying. if you wernt required to have a monk heal you. Ill post the build im going for later once i give it a once over for refinement.

Suicide

TW III
15-06-2005, 19:05
Actually, I think Taunts are an exellent idea, and affirms the Warriors status of "Meat Shield" in PVP.


With a skill like this, the only thing pvp would be about would be stopping the warriors from using it. If the enemy team can only attack 1 member of the team, he can basically be made almost invincible since 3 monks can concentrate on buffing and healing him.

[

Ritualistic Suicide
15-06-2005, 19:14
Remeber this is a Warrior Mentalist Build. These are just a list of skills that are usefull there are a few ways you could build this build so ill just post all the skills that would work.


Skills


Choice of Elite:


Backbreaker (Elite)
Description: If Backbreaker hits, you strike for +1-16 damage and your target is knocked down for 4 seconds.

Devastating Hammer (Elite)
Description: If Devastating Hammer hits, your target is knocked down and suffers from weakness for 5-17 seconds.

Earth Shaker (Elite)
Description: All adjacent foes are knocked down. (50% failure chance with Hammer Mastery attribute of 4 or less.)

Bull's Charge (Elite)
Description: For 5-10 seconds, you move 25% faster than normal and if you strike a fleeing foe in melee, that foe is knocked down. Bull's Charge ends if you use a skill.

Dwarven Battle Stance (Elite)
Description: For 3-8 seconds, if they hit, your hammer attacks interrupt your target. Dwarven Battle Stance ends if you use a skill.



Regular Skills:



Hammer :

Hammer Bash
Description: Lose all adrenaline. If Hammer Bash hits, your target is knocked down

Heavy Blow
Description: Lose all adrenaline. If this attack hits a foe suffering from weakness, that foe is knocked down and you strike for +1-24 damage. (If you are using the devistating hammer elite)

Irresistible Blow
Description: If Irresistible Blow is blocked, your target is knocked down and takes 1-24 damage. Irresistible Blow cannot be blocked or evaded.

Staggering Blow
Description: If this hammer blow hits, your target will suffer from weakness for 5-13 seconds.


Strength:


Bull's Strike
Description: If this attack hits a fleeing foe, you strike for +5-25 damage, and your target is knocked down.

Griffon's Sweep
Description: If this attack hits, you strike for +1-8 damage. If this attack is evaded, your target is knocked down and suffers 10-29 damage.

Sprint
Description: For 8-13 seconds, you move 25% faster.


Other Skills:


Counter Blow
Description: If this attack hits an attacking foe, that foe is knocked down.

Disrupting Chop
Description: If it hits, this attack interrupts the target's current action. If that action was a skill, that skill is disabled for an additional 20 seconds.


Domination Magic:


Blackout
Description: For 2-6 seconds, all of target foe's skills are disabled, and all of your skills are disabled for 5 seconds.

Diversion
Description: For 6 seconds, the next time target foe uses a skill, that skill takes an additional 10-47 seconds to recharge.

Power Leak
Description: If target foe is casting a spell, the spell is interrupted and target foe loses 10-22 energy.

Power Spike
Description: If target foe is casting a spell, the spell is interrupted and target foe takes 20-86 damage.

Shame
Description: For 4-9 seconds, the next time target foe casts a spell on an ally, the spell fails, you steal 5-12 energy from that foe, and Shame ends.


Build and Tactics



Now this build is all about shutting down casters with Spells and knock downs.

Unfortunatly im at work so i cant state on the Skill point allocation or the Runes but in a perfect world you would want your

Strength: 12
Hammer: 12
Domination Magic: As high as possible

There is really no significant gain in going over 12 if you went 12 on those 2 and got there with say 2 major Runes that would almost allow you have a extremly high Domination magic i belive.

My skill choice would be

1. Rush
2. Bull Charge (Elite)
3. Bull Strike
4. Counter Blow
5. Irresistible Blow
6. Hammer Bash
7. Blackout
8. Power Spike or Power Leak or Rez Sig

The whole point of the build is a have a prot monk or a Earth Ele buff you up you charge in and focus on either a mez or a Monk. Bull Charge and Bull Strike can prevent them from runnning Counter blow if they attack back and use Irresistible blow before you use hammer bash. Black out works well to shut them down and Power spike or leak to stop them from casting.

This build would be a mana sink but if you can keep this build alive and they can keep the Caster occupied with there skills then you can pretty much shut a caster down. I havent had time to play with this build yet, but if im thinking how this would run with decent backup then it should be a fairly decent build.

Add your comment on skill selection if you can think of anything else. There are also some skills i put in there that shut down there skills so you could either go knock down with blackout or go with attack skills that shut down there skills.

Suicide

Ritualistic Suicide
15-06-2005, 19:16
With a skill like this, the only thing pvp would be about would be stopping the warriors from using it. If the enemy team can only attack 1 member of the team, he can basically be made almost invincible since 3 monks can concentrate on buffing and healing him.

[

If they had taunt skills you could have it so only there target can attack them that way you could force some one to deal with you instead of just bypassing you. It would be a good skill to shut some one down for say 6 seconds at a time and have a 10 second recharge on it or even 20 second.

Suicide

Vault Dweller
15-06-2005, 19:27
One way taunting could work, would be to strip any currently targetted allies, and force the target onto yourself. The enemy would have to re-target your ally in order to continue hitting them.

Another way it could work is "The next attack directed at target ally actually hits you for X seconds" or something along those lines. Although that would be more of a life bond than a taunt.

Vault

XeroTheta
15-06-2005, 19:32
Worst idea ever. I'll put that in my sig.


edit: Damn no signatures.

I don't see you offering suggestions, I'll quench your flames with my fire extinquisher of justice!

*Quench*

Now begone Balrog of Forum flames!!!

Also, I agree with the idea of sort of an "Intervention" skill as mentioned above.

For x amount of seconds you shield target ally from attacks. All damage intended for ally is redirected to you. Must stay adjacent to target.

Maybe make it elite and under the tactics line to give people more incentive to use tactics.

TW III
15-06-2005, 19:45
If they had taunt skills you could have it so only there target can attack them that way you could force some one to deal with you instead of just bypassing you. It would be a good skill to shut some one down for say 6 seconds at a time and have a 10 second recharge on it or even 20 second.

Suicide


like a worse version of pacifism?


I don't see you offering suggestions, I'll quench your flames with my fire extinquisher of justice!



I don't offer suggestions because there's nothing wrong with warriors. If the build Valandor is running at the moment becomes more popular people will be forced to use less casters and more warriors.

Buddah
16-06-2005, 03:49
People finally learned that mesmers and rangers dont suck. Thats what happened. Warriors are still useful, they just cant be thrown around by skilless noobs the way they could before.
The problem is the skilled warriors seem to get grouped with the skillless.


Every decent War/Mo uses smiting.


Incorrect. Wa/Mo using protection prayers can be a real boon to a team. Takes some pressure off the prot. monk to cast some spells. A healing Wa/Mo can be very effective if left with one heal, possibly rez, and the rest loaded up with skills to damage and inflict conditions. The fact is the stereotype that all wa/mo are just damage sponges with several heals can play into your favor.

Herthbul
16-06-2005, 10:50
Actually, I'm pretty sure that every decent W/Mo does use Smiting for the simple fact that the spells in Healing/Protection tend to be spammable, so you want to have Divine Favor for that kind of stuff. Plus the Mo/? with runes and the wand/focus combination is going to be better off than a W/Mo.

But as for the whole "intervention" stuff, sorry to say it's a pretty bad idea. There are many many ways to protect your casters as is, so the thought of throwing in a Warrior related one probably won't make a difference. Some of the best defense comes from the casters themselves. Aegis, Guardian, Reversal of Fortune, Ward Against Melee/Elements/Foes, etc... Hell, even Rangers using traps can help out your Monks alot. The point is, Monks are fine defense wise as it is, assuming they have a good team. This is a team game, so teamwork should be the key to survival and thank god it is.

And as for people trying to make the Warrior a tank, look at his skill list. I see more offensive skills than defensive ones. He has high armor because chances are he'll be chasing the enemy deep into their lines, so he'll need that armor in order to survive, not to survive as a meatshield. The Warrior is an offensive tank, not a defensive wall.

showme
16-06-2005, 15:57
Here is how I'm geussing it will work as far as PvP goes. First you see a ton W/Mo, then people play counters to that build and no one wants to play it. Then the flavor changes and people play something like Air Elementals. People get tired of getting killed by them so anti caster builds will become more popular. Then when people are running the anti caster builds regularly Air E's will get less popular and anti caster more popular. That is when people will start to make warriors to take out the more popular anti caster builds. Then anti caster builds will get less popular while warrior are more. Then the next flavor will show up and people will flock to that, others will flock to counter it, the new flavor will be gone and a new one will start.

XeroTheta
16-06-2005, 16:12
Actually, I'm pretty sure that every decent W/Mo does use Smiting for the simple fact that the spells in Healing/Protection tend to be spammable, so you want to have Divine Favor for that kind of stuff. Plus the Mo/? with runes and the wand/focus combination is going to be better off than a W/Mo.

But as for the whole "intervention" stuff, sorry to say it's a pretty bad idea. There are many many ways to protect your casters as is, so the thought of throwing in a Warrior related one probably won't make a difference. Some of the best defense comes from the casters themselves. Aegis, Guardian, Reversal of Fortune, Ward Against Melee/Elements/Foes, etc... Hell, even Rangers using traps can help out your Monks alot. The point is, Monks are fine defense wise as it is, assuming they have a good team. This is a team game, so teamwork should be the key to survival and thank god it is.

And as for people trying to make the Warrior a tank, look at his skill list. I see more offensive skills than defensive ones. He has high armor because chances are he'll be chasing the enemy deep into their lines, so he'll need that armor in order to survive, not to survive as a meatshield. The Warrior is an offensive tank, not a defensive wall.

Good point, I just have trouble doing any damage that way. I usually just end up getting pin down or some other form of slow on me and they just run away which effectively nullifies anything I can do, so I usually end up staying back and just taking out warriors who attack our monks

Defiled Immortal
17-06-2005, 02:51
double post.. sry.. again

Defiled Immortal
17-06-2005, 02:51
the warrior class is mainly there do do 1 thing... KILL mesmers... they have no true mele/phisical damage counter spell (empathy isn't that great and seroulsy... would u take it inplace of for example blackout or powerblock?... didn't think so)... at least most mesmers don't go anti mele :p . i find on my mes that i can rape everything EXCEPT warriors. havn't played mes in HoH yet (not there yet with him). but i can say that Mesmer slaughtering as a warrior is WAY fun in HoH. (ouch empathy? lol endure pain and EAT MY SWORD FOOL)

Tribo
17-06-2005, 04:14
Uhm.... mesmers can kill warrios with a sword,

in 4v4 arena, just for fun, i use illusion to kill warriors.

Conjure Phantasm
Illusionary weaponry
Imagine Burden
Clumsiness

While conjure phantasm is sucking the w/mo's life out, use illusionary weaponry which hits -42 very consistently(you dont need a single point on swordsmanship to use this because melee damage is useless), hit him with clumsiness then blackout, he wont be able to use skill and get damage consistently.

UndeadBehlial
17-06-2005, 06:49
Its really not hard to counter anything in this game. Air eles are the current "thing". Ok? So run Winter with a Warder and have everyone pack frost armor. Wow now they cant touch you, and their armor is terrible so you tear them apart. Pack enchantment removal. Without their Attunement, see if they have any kind of decent damage output before their running in circles trying to build up energy. Bring a ranger heavy team with Concussion shot and debilitating shot or, even better, just bring mesmers with Power BLock and remove every single one of their skills.

W/Mo's are good because you can just get in there and beat down anything that moves. Certain classes are "well i'm anticaster" etc etc. Warrior is the only class where, in theory, you can have 0 energy and be just as effective as with 90.

I do think Mesmers are the penultimate group. They are built to evolve. They can be anticaster or antimelee, which is everything in the game this far. Their armor is decent, though I admit light could be better. Their only problem is that they can only do damage when you are using/have used a spell (effectively, Phantom Pain + Conjure doesnt solve everything). Really, you can avoid most of a mesmers damage if you just stand there doing nothing, but they're still cool cause no one does that! :p

The Semitic Stallion
18-06-2005, 01:11
I have, what I think, is a decent build with a W/E (Centered on Knockdowns/Aftershock), but I have waited for literally hours to get a group in the tombs. When I do, it's usually terrible...guess I have to wait for warriors to come back in fashion...

poiuyt
20-06-2005, 14:38
I guess that a team wich focus his damage on a 4 wars train could do as well as a air ele team.

I am a war/ele/monk/mesm (used tons of skills point to unlock the key skills for every of this secondary) and I have to say that war/ele and war/mesm, in my experience, are way better than war/monk in a tactic, well organized party.

My favourite one is the war/ele (water). This combo its a great damage deeler, using conjure frost (for additional 10/17 - depends on target - damage every swing) and 4 sword skills: severy artery, gash, 100 blades [wich hit a caster for about 100 damage: 30+30+17(conjure)+17(conjure)]. I also use: rez signet, blurred vision (to defend my casters/monk from enemies wars/rangers) and ice prison (...nobody will run from me...).

When the fight starts I first check if there are warriors in the enemy team. If so, then I blurred them, then I cast conjure frost and go for the main target. If he try to run I use ice prison.
With this combo (2 war/ele and 2 monks/mesm) I had great fun in the 4vs4 organized arena (wich is really fun for a small guild that cant have a balanced 8 ppl party every day).
But I guess this should works in the 8vs8 tombs too. This should be the team build:

2 war/ele (like the one I use)

2 war/mesm
They should use illusionary weap. to avoid blind, wards etc. and, occasionally, strip away henchs.

1 Necro/Monk (curses/smite)
This should go on the main target and use lingering curse and scourge healing, to make possible for the 4 wars to kill a hard buffed and protected target.

3 Monks/Ele
They should have all the tools to keep the party alive and, specially, obsidian flesh to avoid air eles trains and purge condition to make the 4 wars be able to do always their damage.

I guess this tactic its simple (and this is a pro) and effective... what you think about it?

djWHEAT
21-06-2005, 00:10
Important note for those being discouraged as Warriors in this thread... Warriors are just like every other class, they need to be a part of the team, and thus built accordingly.

Also, don't feel left out of the "SPIKE" dmg group. We spike our Warriors DMG all the time. When they have full adren, go for broke on one target, add some Ele dmg, and it's JUST AS EFFECTIVE (if not more for stamina purposes) as an Air Ele Build.

Timewalker
22-06-2005, 15:38
Well when the 3 Mo/Me Ra/Me W/Me Ne/Me group comes to town the Air elementalist spike group is going to wish it had never been born. Why? Every single one of them has mantra of lightning on them. And as we all know there is only one counter in the whole game to mantra of lightning, and only warriors have it. So good luck on not needing a warrior Spike Groups; the Mesmers are coming to town soon and they are displeased with your lack of versatility.

Lefaras
23-06-2005, 10:05
Well when the 3 Mo/Me Ra/Me W/Me Ne/Me group comes to town the Air elementalist spike group is going to wish it had never been born. Why? Every single one of them has mantra of lightning on them. And as we all know there is only one counter in the whole game to mantra of lightning, and only warriors have it. So good luck on not needing a warrior Spike Groups; the Mesmers are coming to town soon and they are displeased with your lack of versatility.

Isn't it better to have the ranger to bring along greater conflagation and winter and every one have mantra of frost. in this way, the team is block against ANY source of damage.

stilted
23-06-2005, 11:15
why do people only think W/mo is the only good war build. Personally im working on a Hamer war build for PvP and monk isnt going to be my secondary. I have a hammer W/me and they work suprisingly well. Go after the casters and use spell blocker skills from the me and knock down skills from the w. you can shut casters down the only problem is you some times end up being a mana sink which is annoying. if you wernt required to have a monk heal you. Ill post the build im going for later once i give it a once over for refinement.

Suicide

because warriors have only 2 tics of mana reg and a very, very low mana pool base...? which means that warriors won't have much mana to use much offensive non-alderline spells....? which means that monk skills are IMO the most cost-effective ones in terms of dmg or healing compared to any other class..

Timewalker
23-06-2005, 12:58
Isn't it better to have the ranger to bring along greater conflagation and winter and every one have mantra of frost. in this way, the team is block against ANY source of damage.

It's definitely more versatile, but it also comes with the quick realization by the enemy that they have to kill the spirits or they pretty much have no chance at winning. Obviously this would be a very strong team design and can't wait to see the reaction on the PvP circuit since it will entail forcing people to target the spirits or use "non-damage" methods of reducing life totals (life drain, life loss, etc).

But one issue is that in countering the current spiker builds the mass chain lightnings from the start might kill one of the spirits. With mantra of lightning you are having all party members take 50% damage from their attacks without them being able to do anything about, and that is hard to deal with. It should I think lead to a very quick demise of these pure air spiker builds.

Hephaistion
23-06-2005, 15:22
I love it when in pvp warriors come after me, being a poor elementist. What they don't know is that i am an earth mage with 127 armor. So many of them have fallen by my earthquake + aftershock and two obsidian flames. :happy65:

They think that they can beat everyone fast and easy. Which is the case if you don't have some measures against them. Since there ARE so many warrior monks, people ajusted their templates to counter them and made their lives less easy.

BlindedJustice
23-06-2005, 22:09
At the same time, there're good warriors out there. One of my guildies is a W/Mo who uses a sword with ailment/disruption (apparently Hamstring and Final Thrust are his big two, along with Savage Slash), but his elite is Word of Healing. But he's learned that he can't take out people by himself- that's the job of the spikers, so he just runs around in a circle attacking targets of opportunity with calls, bringing in the spikers to finish off his targets (or if need be, he uses FT to finish them off... hard to run from knockdown spells from air ele as well as hamstring).

On the other hand, as a monk, I know very well how laughable warriors can be. In a couple of PvPing last night, I think I only ran into like two good warriors that constantly gave me trouble... all of the others were pathetic. I tanked three warriors for ~four minutes at one point. I don't think warriors are useless or anything, a lot of the skills they have are extremely deadly... it's just that those same spells generally aren't very useful in PvE, so most warriors don't know how to change themselves into a useful PvP build... nor how to play it.

And Word of Healing is great. Warriors hardly ever get hit in PvP anyways, they might as well bring in healing help for others.

Feau Twenni
23-06-2005, 23:20
ok guys, W/Mos are worthless in PvP. The biggest difference is that in PvE, the warriors are there to absorb damage, so healing skills are good for them, however in PvP the warriors are there for damage output, so monk is a crappy sub. While they are good in PvE, their monk skills are kinda useless in PvP because you should already have 2 or 3 monks dedicated to healing and protection.

as for warriors, they rock in PvP(of course, so does any class in the right situation). The most common pvp warrior build is the knockdown aftershock w/e. Bring a hammer and some knockdown skills(earth shaker is awesome as its an AE) and charge into the middle of the other team and go to town

I also find warriors to be the best target callers as they dont really have much skills to pay attention to besides the ones they actually are gonna hit the enemy with. Eles are good but i have found it kinda hard to call targets with my ele

TW III
23-06-2005, 23:28
ok guys, W/Mos are worthless in PvP.


Haha hilarious.

VVild
24-06-2005, 08:34
ok guys, W/Mos are worthless in PvP. The biggest difference is that in PvE, the warriors are there to absorb damage, so healing skills are good for them, however in PvP the warriors are there for damage output, so monk is a crappy sub. While they are good in PvE, their monk skills are kinda useless in PvP because you should already have 2 or 3 monks dedicated to healing and protection.

as for warriors, they rock in PvP(of course, so does any class in the right situation). The most common pvp warrior build is the knockdown aftershock w/e. Bring a hammer and some knockdown skills(earth shaker is awesome as its an AE) and charge into the middle of the other team and go to town

I also find warriors to be the best target callers as they dont really have much skills to pay attention to besides the ones they actually are gonna hit the enemy with. Eles are good but i have found it kinda hard to call targets with my ele



.......smiting w/mo....judges...consider not posting in the future. Even a w/mo can be an asset if played right, and as mentioned before there are just too many that are NOT played well, hence your opinion on the matter.

Taunted
24-06-2005, 12:20
I made a nice W/Me build with Blackout and it works very nice. Blackout is a touch attack so it fits nicely on my warrior. I have tried using both hammer and sword, but I found that hamstring was a nice combo for the blackout.

I originally wanted to use Power Block, but I just can't seem to meet the damn boss that has it :( So I opted to using blackout instead. And it actually works verywell against casters. Hamstring followed by blackout and they are 100% dependant of another monk for 6 seconds. That is a long time actually, and in many GvG fights this has made a major impact. And on monks it ofcouce means all their skills are disabled, so they can't even boonheal or anything.


I don't think the warrior is dead as a class atall, but maybe the standard W/Mo with selfheal is. Nobody is dumb enough to target one. We will just see diffrent warrior builds. W/Mo smiter I can think of a few nice things, and tons of good W/Me builds.

Generally Mesmer makes one hell of a secondary class to just about any other class IMO.

Buddah
25-06-2005, 00:30
I made a nice W/Me build with Blackout and it works very nice. Blackout is a touch attack so it fits nicely on my warrior. I have tried using both hammer and sword, but I found that hamstring was a nice combo for the blackout.


Actually of the mind mesmer is a weak secondary for warrior, but the meta game of PvP makes it viable.

Blackout is among the best spells to shut down a caster. Plus you have access to Manta of Lightning, which really is great against Spikes.