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lred
18-06-2005, 13:33
GW PvP is a team game. To be a good team you need to play regularly with the same people in the team; that's what guilds are for.
For a guild to be able to play as a guild, to become a coordinated team, they need to have at least most of the guild members online at the same time, several times a week for at least an hour or so.

How often are casual players online? Not as often as members of top guilds, that's for sure.

So even if they are part of a guild, more often then not the only viable option for casual players to play PvP is to join pickup groups.
These pickup groups then get to compete with guilds, only to be slaughtered by most. Over and over again. And again.
Being cannon fother is not fun to most people, so it very rapidly becomes frustrating for casual players. The difference in skill level of the average pickup group and a serious guild is so large that the casual player doesn't even get to learn from the experience. Multiple second lag-bursts also don't help in figuring out what is going on in battle.

It's one thing to be defeated simply because the other team is better, it's another thing when you are defeated because the opponent is completely out of your league.

At some point the casual players are done with PvE, and they quickly find out they don't stand a chance in PvP.

But who cares? They've already payed for their copy of GW. Since there's no monthly fee, their leaving is no financial loss.
Though they probably won't be buying many expansion packs.

Of course AN does care about casual players, they do not want them to leave. But what are they doing to prevent it?

Banished
18-06-2005, 13:42
GW PvP is a team game. To be a good team you need to play regularly with the same people in the team; that's what guilds are for.
For a guild to be able to play as a guild, to become a coordinated team, they need to have at least most of the guild members online at the same time, several times a week for at least an hour or so.

How often are casual players online? Not as often as members of top guilds, that's for sure.

So even if they are part of a guild, more often then not the only viable option for casual players to play PvP is to join pickup groups.
These pickup groups then get to compete with guilds, only to be slaughtered by most. Over and over again. And again.
Being cannon fother is not fun to most people, so it very rapidly becomes frustrating for casual players. The difference in skill level of the average pickup group and a serious guild is so large that the casual player doesn't even get to learn from the experience. Multiple second lag-bursts also don't help in figuring out what is going on in battle.

It's one thing to be defeated simply because the other team is better, it's another thing when you are defeated because the opponent is completely out of your league.

At some point the casual players are done with PvE, and they quickly find out they don't stand a chance in PvP.

But who cares? They've already payed for their copy of GW. Since there's no monthly fee, their leaving is no financial loss.
Though they probably won't be buying many expansion packs.

Of course AN does care about casual players, they do not want them to leave. But what are they doing to prevent it?

define "casual" please? in my old guild alot of the members were 21+ , and all had day jobs, So everynight when everyone was home from work/school, and setteled in for a while, then we'd get on pvp for a hour or two. i think thats the defenition of a casual player, non of us were "hardcore" (well except me :D ) yet we did well in tombs. so dont say "casual" players dont stand a chance, because its not true ;)

lred
18-06-2005, 13:55
define "casual" please? in my old guild alot of the members were 21+ , and all had day jobs, So everynight when everyone was home from work/school, and setteled in for a while, then we'd get on pvp for a hour or two. i think thats the defenition of a casual player, non of us were "hardcore" (well except me :D ) yet we did well in tombs. so dont say "casual" players dont stand a chance, because its not true ;)
I did define "casual".
If you get to play with the same people for several hours almost every day, that's not casual. Hard-core doesn't mean that you play all day every day, just that you're very dedicated. Playing two or three times a week, hardly ever seeing more then a few guild members online, that's not dedicated nor hard-core, that's casual.

How does it make you feel when your guild/team defeats a random pickup group consisting of noobs? You can't help it because there are no leagues and the teams you compete against are assigned randomly. But it's hard to argue that these are honerable victories, don't you think?

I say there should be leagues. Having experienced guilds compete with inexperienced players is just bad sportmanship.

Scyfer
18-06-2005, 16:14
We don't care about Pvp, that's why we're casual ;)

Way of the Dragon
18-06-2005, 17:05
We don't care about Pvp, that's why we're casual ;)

But i have been told that's all that's left after lvl 20 and to stop complaining about the pve :( .

Lana Skyeyes
18-06-2005, 17:24
u do make a good point lred, i'm a casual PvPer and well the only place thats really any fun are the random arenas. the Tomb is so full of elitests thats it's hard to even get a group never mind one that can complete. only thing i've really learned in the Tomb is if there's a Korean team against mine might as well just stand there and take it.

i do have fun when i PvP either type of place, but as u said being fodder gets old fast. i can only play on weekend to any real length of time so i dont feel a guild would really want me so i haven't joined one. but hey i play to have fun not conquer the world so it's all good.

Have fun on Tyria people, take care :thumbsup:

MasterNightfall
18-06-2005, 17:27
only thing i've really learned in the Tomb is if there's a Korean team against mine might as well just stand there and take it.


Contrary to popular belief, Koreans are not some sort of demi-gods. Average teams from over there are roughly on the same level that I see in US or European teams.

Lana Skyeyes
18-06-2005, 17:29
LOL cool i look forward to meeting one...someday =)

Have fun on Tyria people, take care :thumbsup:

paperairplane
18-06-2005, 17:51
GW is a pvp game and people who can play it the most will have an advantage in pvp because they get more practice. This game is not about levels or gear, it's really all about skill and teamwork.

You can't compare this to other rps or even think of it as one. Think more along the lines of an FPS...those kids that sit in a dark room playing counter-strike for 12hrs a day are always going to "pwn" you, but if you practice two or three times a week with your guildmates you should be easily able to compete with the vast majority. No, you are never going to be the #1 guild in the world...but for a couple hours a week what did you expect?

edit - if you ever expect to compete in anything but random arenas you NEED a guild. People with whom you can build a team around and practice with...pickup teams outside HoH won't get you anywhere.

ScotiaAudrin
18-06-2005, 18:37
I have to agree with Ired on this one.

I used to be a proffesional PK on Ultima Online for about 5 of the 7 years i played, i took my killing other players very seriously. That game took skill. This game takes no skill period unless your a mesmer I give them credit cause of the timing needed. What this game takes to win is formula. Formula is not skill. If you dont understand what i mean by formula its more of a pre-plan setup.


Now formula is not created in those so called "pick up groups". So casual players have no chance in getting to HoH. Formula is created when a group.. usually a guild sit down and talk about options they have with skills and different proffesion types. To perfect this takes hours of going over skills until you have the right setup. Then its just point and clicking their way through HoH.

Once again the reason formula cannot be staged in a pickup group is because people want to get into the tournament without WAITING. So they take people they think would be a good combination. 2-3 monks and a mixed bag of casters and tanks. Each single player in that team has their own plan. Apart from calling targets. And calling targets is not enough. Which cannot work to win. Any number of things can go wrong in that group. The warriors may just have a bad setup of skills or interupts. The monks may not have the right healing or protection setup. The casters more than likely are not using superior runes so their damage output dosnt last against a guilded team with 3 coordinated monks.

sly_1
18-06-2005, 19:37
I don't think you need to spend hours upon hours every single day pvp'ing with a group in order to become competetive. If a group of casual gamers spent say 2-3 hours a day every day doing nothing but PvP'ing together, they would become rather good rather quick.

Another thing to ponder is the notion that originality can sometimes win over experience. If the casual group I just outlined spent 2 weeks pvp'ing with a "normal" team and learned how to function well together, they'd stand a good chance if they suddenly unleashed a new and innovative strategy. They'd be able to go on a nice little run until people started to copy their team leading to counter teams and so on.

Look at things like the army of minions strat that took everyone off guard and had people crying "exploit" and "balance". Sure, that strat was originally introduced by one of the more hardcore guilds, but if some group of weekend warriors had come up with it first no doubt they would have won a few sigils before the community could formulate a counter.

Now that strat has a far less chance of success because teams bring edge of extinction to counter it. But surely the first time it was witnessed the other team was like "oh s***" regardless of how many thousands of hours they had pvp'd together up to that point.

Another example is the air ele team. You see more wards and interrupts in teams than before simply because of this strategy, but at one time only the air ele teams were winning sigils.

Moral of the story: if you can't win through superior coordination and teamwork, win through original thinking and innovation. :happy34:

So put on your thinking cap and start trying out all the combos people dismiss as "weak". Just as minions were supposedly "useless in PvP", there has got to be 100+ other "useless" strategies that will own in tombs (at least for a while) just waiting to be discovered.

p.s., And get vent/ts. at the very least you can't allow the other team to have an advantage like voip, especially when anyone can dl the thing and use it.

Lana Skyeyes
19-06-2005, 03:36
Wow this morning i was on a pick up team in the tomb that almost won several times. like beating a single team to win close. we didn't have ts/vent and barely called targets, yet we still almost did it, so i suppose a team with 7-8 people that simply know how to play well with others can do well in the tomb. go figure =)

You guys rocked

Have fun on Tyria people, take care :thumbsup:

MasterNightfall
19-06-2005, 03:41
I have to agree with Ired on this one.

I used to be a proffesional PK on Ultima Online for about 5 of the 7 years i played, i took my killing other players very seriously. That game took skill. This game takes no skill period unless your a mesmer I give them credit cause of the timing needed. What this game takes to win is formula. Formula is not skill. If you dont understand what i mean by formula its more of a pre-plan setup.

Really? I'd like to see some proof, please.

lred
19-06-2005, 13:16
I don't think you need to spend hours upon hours every single day pvp'ing with a group in order to become competetive.


If a group of casual gamers spent say 2-3 hours a day every day doing nothing but PvP'ing together, they would become rather good rather quick.
"hours upon hours every single day"

"2-3 hours a day every day"

So what's the big difference between the two?
And "nothing but PvP" - that's pretty dedicated, certainly not casual.

Very few people have the time to play "hours upon hours" every day anyway - i mean, how much is that compared to 2-3 hours every day? 4 hours is only marginally more - is 5, 6, 7 or 8 hours "hours upon hours"? How many people play that much? Even many hard-core players don't play that much.

Dedicated/hard-core players may be able to/want to play several hours almost every day (many do in fact have a life outside of GW), but casual players? For them GW is just a pass-time.

I'd say "casual" players by definition do not play every single day. They play a few times a week, a few hours at a time. At times they may not play for an entire week. They'd be lucky to see more then a few guild members online at the same time. So they practically never get to practice as a guild, certainly not enough to be competative.

Scyfer
19-06-2005, 13:25
I think this is fixable by being in a sufficiently large enough guild. I am finding that the PvP in the game (at least GvG) is very casual friendly. I do attribute this somewhat to the large # of students & unemployed people playing in my guild. There are maybe 30 of us, with 10 semi active (log on once a week) - and myself being an every 2-3 days person currently. Of those 20 or so active people, they are from all over the world - EU, Australia, US time zones of all types, you name it - and I still find myself confronted by 5-7+ people regularly on at 9pm-2am PST who want to GvG. Also, forums, and other types of guild organisation do wonders for coordinating GvG (and HoH) get together times.

lred
19-06-2005, 13:44
so i suppose a team with 7-8 people that simply know how to play well with others can do well in the tomb.
Sure, i have been in such a pickup team a few times as well. I to have been one victory away from winning HoH. It's one of those good experiences that makes GW fun (same goes for PvE imo).
But how often do you end up in such a team? And how strong is such a team compared to an experienced guild? Usually not strong enough to win HoH.

I'd say your case is the exception that proves the rule.

abcdk
19-06-2005, 14:15
I used to play halls a lot with pickup groups and every time I got my *** kicked I just figured that my team had newbs in it or that the other team was just more skilled than ours. But eventually I actually got to the HoH for my first time and got a chance to play against some insane korean guild. Honestly, even as a fairly serious player it was a truly discouraging experience.

Our team that day was unusually good for a pickup team, we had 4 very decent air eles, 3 monks (one of which was me), and one insane mesmer, the team leader, who appeared to be the best player in the world. We had already won 4 matches in a row (two of them against some good korean guilds). So when our HoH match started we had every intention to take the alter.

First we stopped to regroup and make a plan. Our mesmer guru convinced us to let the other teams fight until the 3 minute mark, upon which time we would rush for the alter, focus fire the ghostly with all 4 air eles, and quickly place our ghostly up there so we could hold on for the win. So we waited until our time mark and went off. All 4 air eles went for the ghostly, surge, orb, strike... and the enemy ghostly's hp bar didn't even twitch, apparently the korean team had a protection monk standing by to instantly remove the surge hexes and cast some crazy protect spell to keep the ghostly up. What happened next made me feel like quiting GW for good. ALL 8 of us desperately focus fired on the ghostly giving it everything we had, none of the our eles were pushovers and our hex/interrupt mesmer was a virtual god, but the ghostly's hp never dropped under 50% even once.

Now after this, all of the following events happened in under 10 seconds. In one instant I looked at my hp bar, almost full health, as soon as I looked up I was dead from a perfectly synchronized orb surge, I could've blinked and missed it. I quickly asked for a ressurect but looked at our party window and saw that both of our other monks were dead. Getting desperate, I told our mesmer to bring our ghostly up to the alter and hope that the other team kills the korean ghostly. Oh oops, our ghostly's is dead too. Pretty embarassing way to go down for such a wellbalanced team...

Anyway, after the match our pro mesmer (who had somehow surveyed the other team's strategy while we were playing) explained to us what happened. The other team had 3 monks spread out evenly throughout the map, each monk was apparently assigned to 2 people for his healing duties while the 3rd monk was given 1 person and the ghostly to watch after. Everytime the ghostly fell under ~75% hp, a second monk would cast a strong heal or protect spell on it. Meanwhile, the team had a ranger set up some spirit that turns all damage into cold damage, and all of the monks were mesmer secondary so they were probably using mantra of frost. The same ranger who set the cold spirit had a necro secondary and he systematically ran around in a circle giving blood ritual mana to the monks. The rest of the party consisted of air eles who were trained to synchronize their attacks in roughly 10 second intervals.

This level of organization will never be possible for a casual player, in fact, our story is a perfect example of GW's faultly pvp system. The mesmer in our team that day was seriously a walking pro, it happened a while ago but I clearly remembered he would hardly ever miss a chance to interrupt a big spell or screw over another caster. It didn't matter how good he was though, the korean team was so well prepared and so well organized that even a pickup team consisting of the 8 best players in the world might have lost.

icemanjmw
19-06-2005, 14:32
It didn't matter how good he was though, the korean team was so well prepared and so well organized that even a pickup team consisting of the 8 best players in the world might have lost.

It shouldn't matter how good HE was, guild wars is obviously a team game. That also means that "being good at this game" and "being organized" are in a way the same thing.

abcdk
19-06-2005, 14:35
double post

abcdk
19-06-2005, 14:36
It shouldn't matter how good HE was, guild wars is obviously a team game. That also means that "being good at this game" and "being organized" are in a way the same thing.

I think you missed my point. I strongly believe that individually, any member of our team that day was just as good as an individual on that korean team in terms of raw skill (reflexes, knowledge, etc).

The reason why we got owned so badly is because the korean guild had planned their fight exceptionally well, and all of their players adapted their build to suit each other (ie ranger casting winter spirit so mesmer secondaries can reduce damage with mantra of fronst)

Lana Skyeyes
19-06-2005, 15:09
Yes you are right Ired, but i thought i'd just share that it can happen. it's defiantly a rare thing but nice when ya find it. =)

Have fun on Tyria people, take care :thumbsup:

Banished
19-06-2005, 15:18
I used to play halls a lot with pickup groups and every time I got my *** kicked I just figured that my team had newbs in it or that the other team was just more skilled than ours. But eventually I actually got to the HoH for my first time and got a chance to play against some insane korean guild. Honestly, even as a fairly serious player it was a truly discouraging experience.

Our team that day was unusually good for a pickup team, we had 4 very decent air eles, 3 monks (one of which was me), and one insane mesmer, the team leader, who appeared to be the best player in the world. We had already won 4 matches in a row (two of them against some good korean guilds). So when our HoH match started we had every intention to take the alter.

First we stopped to regroup and make a plan. Our mesmer guru convinced us to let the other teams fight until the 3 minute mark, upon which time we would rush for the alter, focus fire the ghostly with all 4 air eles, and quickly place our ghostly up there so we could hold on for the win. So we waited until our time mark and went off. All 4 air eles went for the ghostly, surge, orb, strike... and the enemy ghostly's hp bar didn't even twitch, apparently the korean team had a protection monk standing by to instantly remove the surge hexes and cast some crazy protect spell to keep the ghostly up. What happened next made me feel like quiting GW for good. ALL 8 of us desperately focus fired on the ghostly giving it everything we had, none of the our eles were pushovers and our hex/interrupt mesmer was a virtual god, but the ghostly's hp never dropped under 50% even once.

Now after this, all of the following events happened in under 10 seconds. In one instant I looked at my hp bar, almost full health, as soon as I looked up I was dead from a perfectly synchronized orb surge, I could've blinked and missed it. I quickly asked for a ressurect but looked at our party window and saw that both of our other monks were dead. Getting desperate, I told our mesmer to bring our ghostly up to the alter and hope that the other team kills the korean ghostly. Oh oops, our ghostly's is dead too. Pretty embarassing way to go down for such a wellbalanced team...

Anyway, after the match our pro mesmer (who had somehow surveyed the other team's strategy while we were playing) explained to us what happened. The other team had 3 monks spread out evenly throughout the map, each monk was apparently assigned to 2 people for his healing duties while the 3rd monk was given 1 person and the ghostly to watch after. Everytime the ghostly fell under ~75% hp, a second monk would cast a strong heal or protect spell on it. Meanwhile, the team had a ranger set up some spirit that turns all damage into cold damage, and all of the monks were mesmer secondary so they were probably using mantra of frost. The same ranger who set the cold spirit had a necro secondary and he systematically ran around in a circle giving blood ritual mana to the monks. The rest of the party consisted of air eles who were trained to synchronize their attacks in roughly 10 second intervals.

This level of organization will never be possible for a casual player, in fact, our story is a perfect example of GW's faultly pvp system. The mesmer in our team that day was seriously a walking pro, it happened a while ago but I clearly remembered he would hardly ever miss a chance to interrupt a big spell or screw over another caster. It didn't matter how good he was though, the korean team was so well prepared and so well organized that even a pickup team consisting of the 8 best players in the world might have lost.

i love air builds, especially when they try to "nuke" the hero when we have spell breaker on it.

i love it when everyone "focus fires" the ghost and doesnt remove our enchantments first, i mean
protective spirit + life bond + seed = we could just sit there all day

Hanuman Li Tosh
19-06-2005, 17:49
1. if you make it to the end of pve, and you are not a complete waste of flesh, your character will be able to hang in pvp.

2. my premade character rocks in guild vs guild, yours can too.

3. yeah, if you want to play against top guilds you need to practice a lot just like they do. you wont be playing against top guilds when you GVG for the first time, youll be playing against other gvg noobs and work your way up. if you expect to compete against the best in anything, you'd better have time to invest for practice.
Just becasue i couldnt beat 4kgrubby at WC3 doesent mean i quit playing or didnt have fun, it just meant that i had to play other 'casual' players and not sponsored clans that play for $25000.

ManaCraft
19-06-2005, 18:27
This level of organization will never be possible for a casual player, in fact, our story is a perfect example of GW's faultly pvp system.

You've got it backwards. What you're talking about is coordination. And yes, good coordination will make almost any team better. But that's hardly GW's fault. Skill is required to play effectively in GW, contrary to what some people think. But coordination is equally important. Look around for groups with teamspeak/ventrillo/whatever. That shouls help somewhat.

That being said, Guild Wars does seem to lack a "PvP for beginners" option. Being somewhat new to PvP myself, I've often wished that Arena.Net would implement a Hall of Noobs, or some other form of training ground.


ManaCraft

talinna
19-06-2005, 19:10
That being said, Guild Wars does seem to lack a "PvP for beginners" option. Being somewhat new to PvP myself, I've often wished that Arena.Net would implement a Hall of Noobs, or some other form of training ground.

ManaCraft

Amen to that!!! Granted a few of the threads in here help a little but you can't read your way through a PvP battle, and I doubt I'm the only rookie guild member that is afraid to join a GvG for fact of getting the guild slautered (or at least being a big help in that factor)

paperairplane
20-06-2005, 06:09
I've often wished that Arena.Net would implement a Hall of Noobs, or some other form of training ground.

tried random arena /w premade char? granted 4v4 is different than 8v8v8v8, but it allows you to get the hang of things.

Defunct
20-06-2005, 08:21
tried random arena /w premade char? granted 4v4 is different than 8v8v8v8, but it allows you to get the hang of things.

The random arenas are not even close to HoH :(

I second the motion for a Hall of N00bs :D Either that or add a spectator mode for the real Hall of Heroes. That way people can actually learn something from watching. Real life teams watch their competitions (like sports or other types of tournaments), it's something that's sorely lacking in GW.

The downside is... if there's spectator mode for HoH I will probably never log off... :p

Svenn
20-06-2005, 18:41
The random arenas are not even close to HoH :(That's right. Neither 4x4 Competition nor Team Arenas hold a candle to Tombs/HoH. It's mad-crazy with 3 teams of 8 players on the map (second stage of 6-team matchup).

Defiled Immortal
21-06-2005, 00:00
i agree... they should allow teams to continue watching after losing in HoH... this way they can watch the teams that beat them... see how they work... try that strat or work up a counter to it.

Defiled