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djWHEAT
22-06-2005, 19:54
What do people think of the strategies which involve dropping so many spirits there's little that a team can do?

Haven't seen this yet? 2 Rangers in the build, they drop Frozen Soil, Zephyrs, Quickning, and then the spirts which convert dmg to fire, then to physical, and finally all dmg to cold.

In my opinion, it's a fantastic strategy, and those who originally came up with it should be applauded. However, I have one problem in which it was implemented. They drop so many of the same spirits, even if you kill one in the chain, another one is already up to maintain the effect. In one particular case, we were up against 8 players and about 20 spirits on the field. Typically with one ranger, you can keep up with dropping the spirits, but with two alternating cooldowns, it can be pretty difficult.

I believe a change should be made that only allows one type of spirit to be on the field for that team. So if a Ranger has 5 spirits to drop, no problem, he can drop them all. But if another Ranger has the same 5 spirits, they cannot drop theirs until the others are destroyed or run out of time.

Is that too much of a nurf to rangers? Or does anyone else think that's a fair way to balance the overusage of spirits in GvG and Tombs?

ultimastrike
22-06-2005, 19:57
What do people think of the strategies which involve dropping so many spirits there's little that a team can do?

Haven't seen this yet? 2 Rangers in the build, they drop Frozen Soil, Zephyrs, Quickning, and then the spirts which convert dmg to fire, then to physical, and finally all dmg to cold.

In my opinion, it's a fantastic strategy, and those who originally came up with it should be applauded. However, I have one problem in which it was implemented. They drop so many of the same spirits, even if you kill one in the chain, another one is already up to maintain the effect. In one particular case, we were up against 8 players and about 20 spirits on the field. Typically with one ranger, you can keep up with dropping the spirits, but with two alternating cooldowns, it can be pretty difficult.

I believe a change should be made that only allows one type of spirit to be on the field for that team. So if a Ranger has 5 spirits to drop, no problem, he can drop them all. But if another Ranger has the same 5 spirits, they cannot drop theirs until the others are destroyed or run out of time.

Is that too much of a nurf to rangers? Or does anyone else think that's a fair way to balance the overusage of spirits in GvG and Tombs?

perhaps each spirit should cost the ranger 1 arrow of regen, same as enchantments.

Hart
22-06-2005, 20:16
Personally, I hope they bring back Unnatural Signet, with the caveat that it removes all nature rituals in effect, which seems to be to be a fair tradeoff for a 30-60 second disable on all skills and an elite skill slot. This would provide a counter for spirit-spamming teams, which currently don't have a real counter outside of 'kill the spirit' which isn't always realistic.

Taxed
22-06-2005, 22:47
I think the -regen like enchantments is the way to go on this one.

stilted
24-06-2005, 06:27
the ranger already has to waste skill slots on spirits that affect you and the team...? so it's already a 7v8 match and you want to disable the ranger further....?

Lefaras
24-06-2005, 06:36
Personally, I dun think there a need to nerf it. if there are 20 spirits, theopposing team shall try to turn the spirits to their advantage, if there are favorable winds, get ur team to start use bow, winter + conflag use ward against elements, nature renewal, get your ranger to set traps to protect the caster while they recharge their energy or cast energyising wind after all longer recharge is better than no energy.

All in all is get a RANGER in any Gvg, Pvp, or Pve cos ranger DUN and never will sucks!

hahnsoo
24-06-2005, 06:40
Multiple spirits just increase the coverage and provide insurance that destroying only one spirit does not end the effect. The cooldown for most (if not all) spirits is 1 minute, which means that unless Quickening Zephyr is in play (and it very well might be), you'll only get 1 or maybe 2 extra spirits hanging around per ranger. With Quickening Zephyr, you might see 4 of the same type of spirit in play from any given Ranger. Of course, this assumes that the Ranger is continually casting spirits all day.

I don't think this is unreasonable. The rangers that do this are dedicated ritualists, and thus are taking up all of their DPS (and potentially, the DPS of a stronger team member, like an Aeromancer) in exchange for laying down spirits constantly. Because of their long casting time (a whopping 5 seconds), Spirits are easily interrupted. While the Nature Spirits cover a wide area of effect, the Spirits themselves are easily killed (as they are level 10 at max). Spamming spirits by themselves do not make a team unbeatable. They simply make the team annoying. What makes a team stronger is if they are all tuned to take the Spirit effects into account. For example, a team that brings few enchantments, knowing that Nature's Renewal is going to be played by a teammate. Or teammates that bring Cold protection in anticipation of a Winter (or Winter/Greater Conflagration combo). It's the old concept of the "Home Ground" advantage, where knowing one's terrain gives effective tactical advantages for a defensive campaign. Only in this case, teams are using Rangers to set up their own personal "Home Ground". It's far from unbeatable... but you have to have an adaptive team to deal with it. Once again, it's about skill and strategy, than about gear and character abilities.

Feau Twenni
24-06-2005, 11:46
heres a retardedly easy way to counter spirit teams, my guild ran into one earlier today and thought we were screwed, it was a relic run and there was no way we could get to them, until someone remembered we had edge of extinction(when a creature dies creatures of the same type take 45 dmg)

we dropped it and laughed our ***** off as our warrior killed one spirit and the entire mass of them died. The other team didnt reply to our taunts, they were prolly too pissed

Taunted
24-06-2005, 12:02
heres a retardedly easy way to counter spirit teams, my guild ran into one earlier today and thought we were screwed, it was a relic run and there was no way we could get to them, until someone remembered we had edge of extinction(when a creature dies creatures of the same type take 45 dmg)

we dropped it and laughed our ***** off as our warrior killed one spirit and the entire mass of them died. The other team didnt reply to our taunts, they were prolly too pissed


Very nice :)

Stim Packed
25-06-2005, 03:39
I've never seen EoE used before against spirits, but if EoE only does ~45 dmg, wouldn't that mean you'd have to drop about 6 of them before they all died? I've heard it's good at times PvP, but... how?

Carcassone
25-06-2005, 14:45
I have several questions about spirits:

1- You can spamm the same spirits? (example You can have 3 of the same spirits)


2- What are the spirit radius? (can someone post a secreenshot)

3- It's radius increases with more points in the correspondent attribute?

4- when we cast a spirit it stays on the spot where he was cast?

Wind Cast
25-06-2005, 15:31
As a ranger i know that if u take many spirits we are lossing over half out skill slots leaving relavtivley no room for healing, defencive and attacking skills.

Spirits is a tactic used by rangers, and u say they should be nerfed just cause u cant find a way around them?
I hate this overall, first everyones wants air eles nerfed cause they have a new strat , now u want rangers nerfed cause they have a strat. Why dont u quit these nerf the class posts and find your own strategy?

HalfBadger
28-06-2005, 21:42
I have several questions about spirits:

1- You can spamm the same spirits? (example You can have 3 of the same spirits)


2- What are the spirit radius? (can someone post a secreenshot)

3- It's radius increases with more points in the correspondent attribute?

4- when we cast a spirit it stays on the spot where he was cast?

I'm also curious to know:

1) What is the radius of a spirit's effect?

2) Does the radius increase with a high attribute point?

I thought you have to be standing directly on/in the spirit to gets its effect, but with the I've read about spirits lately and seen in game action, I think I'm wrong, yet don't know what the area of effect is.

Svenn
28-06-2005, 23:15
I'm also curious to know:

1) What is the radius of a spirit's effect?

2) Does the radius increase with a high attribute point?

I thought you have to be standing directly on/in the spirit to gets its effect, but with the I've read about spirits lately and seen in game action, I think I'm wrong, yet don't know what the area of effect is.1) I do not know the radius, but the range of effect is fairly generous. You could test it by going to a clear area with a ranger and walking away from the spirit until the enchantment icon falls from your screen.

2) No, the spirit's level (hp) merely increases with additional attribute points, making it harder to kill.

4) (Carcassone) Yes, the spirits are rooted to the spot where you cast them. This is one disadvantage of the PvP strategy with the larger maps.

Oblivious The Swift
28-06-2005, 23:27
In my opinion it's a good way to make a team mad, and take them down, glad we rangers come up with brilliant things, and people hate our tactics, just admit that rangers are better at figuring things out, and taking heat.

Oblivious The Swift
28-06-2005, 23:43
Is that too much of a nurf to rangers? Or does anyone else think that's a fair way to balance the overusage of spirits in GvG and Tombs?

Everyone says we suck, but now people are complaining about us having too much power, 1 problem with that Uhh neither of those comments are true.

VVild
29-06-2005, 00:14
Everyone says we suck, but now people are complaining about us having too much power, 1 problem with that Uhh neither of those comments are true.

It's just how guildwars works; one day everyone might be saying a certain class sucks, than the next trend comes out and suddenly everyone is looking for " LF rank 3 rangers w/ spirits". Unfortunately, it's going to be the guilds that actually have these, since before they become popular it's very hard to get into a group and even harder to get that fame.

Hart
29-06-2005, 02:47
Unfortunately, it's going to be the guilds that actually have these...

Guild Wars.

this_barb
29-06-2005, 04:11
There are only a few ways to a spirit spammer:

1. Use Serpent's Quickness in conjunction with Quickening Zephyr (only works if you plan to use Quickening Zephyr) - This method is also the most secure.

2. Use Oath Shot to replenish your Spirits. This one can be affected by skills that apply blocking or evading such as Aegis. Personally, I hate this method.

There are many ways to destroy spirits:

1. Drop a relatively high level Edge of Extinction and nuke the surrounding Spirits, all other spirits will follow suit.

2. Kill the Ranger

3. Disrupt the Ranger (which shouldn't be so hard as spirits have a cast time of 5 seconds)

this_barb
29-06-2005, 04:13
The current metagame within GW is that most of the team buids out there rely greatly on spirits, as much to the point as spirits themselves may be what makes them effective. If that is the case, succcessfully calling the Ranger as the primary target and dropping him would make your chances of success very close to 100%.

dorafish
29-06-2005, 05:14
When's the last time you targetted a ranger first and actually managed to kill him?
A few spirits, 1 or 2 stances, and a monk keeping him company makes a ranger almost impossible to kill.

Spirits are strong, but there are counters. Even so, I still think spirits are TOO strong.
natures renewal + quickening zephyr can easily lock down any elementalists on the opposition's team, as the energy cost gets way out of hand without attunements and quickening.
Edge of extinction + suicide builds can instantly cause a group of 8 to die.
Winter + conflagration + mantras = sorry ur not dealing any damage.

On the radius - the spirits can affect up to about 2/3's radar range, which is pretty far.

this_barb
29-06-2005, 05:20
Spirits affect both teams. If yours cant survive the heat brought on by spirits, then maybe you should go check the team build. Personally, I try to create a team that can withstand any kind of punishment, even if its coming from spirits. If all it takes to shutdown your build is 1 nature's renewal dropped in the opposing team's favor, then you definitely have to go back to the drawing board.

dorafish
29-06-2005, 05:39
I disagree.
Enchantments are necessary and the heart of an adaptive team. They're so important that I would not think about going into any type of PvP without enchantments on my teams. The problem is as follows:
If you run into a ranger spirit team who KNOWS they're packing natures renewal, you're guna get ur *** handed to you cuz you're running enchantments, and they're prepped for none.
If you're not running enchantments in anticipation of a ranger spirit team, and run into a ele spike team, they'll hand you you're *** too, no question about it.
The key to a good team is a theme, a specialization in what they are good at. A ranger spirit team is good at killing ele spike teams. You can't make a "general" team, which is mediocre at everything. Won't get you anywhere. That's not saying you shouldn't have balance, because balance creates your ability to adapt, but the balance within your team is restricted to promoting synergy, not to go an entirely different direction to cover a weak spot.

Hurin66
29-06-2005, 05:44
Note that is much easier to stop spirits from being placed then to run around and destroy them.

Mesmers and Rangers have lots of interupts and spirits have 5 second cast times with very distinct animations for their casting.

Oblivious The Swift
29-06-2005, 09:43
It's just how guildwars works; one day everyone might be saying a certain class sucks, than the next trend comes out and suddenly everyone is looking for " LF rank 3 rangers w/ spirits". Unfortunately, it's going to be the guilds that actually have these, since before they become popular it's very hard to get into a group and even harder to get that fame.

I agree with you 100% but now talking about ranger tactic's that's like me smashing the way your group or guild plays. (not directed to you just for everyone)

Silas Nordwind
29-06-2005, 16:37
I have a ranger, and have played ranger since beta. I have been frustrated myself trying to find teams and hearing that rangers suck and so on. But this spirit thing is just embarrasing and imo not the way rangers should justify their place in the game.

I dont want to have to set up to counter a specific "flavour of the month build", to me those builds are not about skill at all. Skill is when you face an opponent with the same tools as yourself and you win by the use of them, that be in sports, games, war..

Saying that every build has a counter doesnt justify it, again it would change the game from being about skill, to being about having the luck to not meet your counterbuild.

JoeTheProtector
29-06-2005, 16:43
There are actually several counters to the spirits build, I know because I usually run it with my guild. There are also ways to take advantage of these spirits if you know what spirits will be placed. However, I don't see the point in whining about a build that really isn't easy to run if you don't know what you're doing, and that is in no way undefeatable.

Croix Rheymis
29-06-2005, 18:31
Hey 6 spirits isn't that bad compared to their 20. Also keep in mind that the extinctions can be used multiple times. If you have 3 edges and kill two random spirits that's the same effect as 6 edges and killing one spirit.

Crimson Stigmata
29-06-2005, 18:37
The key to a good team is a theme, a specialization in what they are good at. A ranger spirit team is good at killing ele spike teams. You can't make a "general" team, which is mediocre at everything. Won't get you anywhere. That's not saying you shouldn't have balance, because balance creates your ability to adapt, but the balance within your team is restricted to promoting synergy, not to go an entirely different direction to cover a weak spot.

I disagree. My guild is doing really good at the ladder considering that we are running a "no build" build in GvG. What I notice is we usually get "pwned" when two or more teams decide to attack us at the tombs >_<

Svenn
29-06-2005, 20:58
I disagree. My guild is doing really good at the ladder considering that we are running a "no build" build in GvG.You will find that situation changes when you get in the top two or three hundred guilds. Using voice chat, focused fire, a mesmer or two, and whatever eight qualified people that you can get together atm works lower on the ladder but usually not very well the higher up that you get. You start drawing top 30 guilds in random matchups...owned? Raped is more like it.

VVild
29-06-2005, 22:40
I agree with you 100% but now talking about ranger tactic's that's like me smashing the way your group or guild plays. (not directed to you just for everyone)

I don't care about tactics, I actually love how each couple of weeks there is a new trend to counter. What I was saying is that I dislike not being able to get into groups on account that is not yet rank three, because by the time my current "new" build is complete, there is another build in place already. Now, I just keep a slot open for a PvP char; with most skills unlocked, I can just create a guy to fit in with the trend and get some quick thrills in tombs.