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Corka
02-07-2005, 14:58
Our guild has been running a ranger spirit team for pvp and gvg for a fair while now- certainly before they were at all popular. But now confronted with a new build all these people are calling for a nerf. I've read people suggest on here that maybe spirits should give energy degen like perma enchants. They really don't realise what a kick in the gut that would be.

Spirit builds are definitly beatable. When talking about these builds people who have never run them don't seem to realise how much effort goes in, about how much a team loses for running them, or how they are in fact quite counterable. When we run our team we make sure that at least two people will have the same spirit so that they can be dropped on death. On average we run about 3 spirits each. Now put in res sig. That only leaves 4 skill slots. From that we take out all those 'someone has to take it' skills, such as wards pin down, stances, and the like and you'll find there is very little to do damage with.

Those spirits are a double edge sword. By taking them, our damage output is crap. By ramping up the costs of spells, our monks also have a harder time. By dropping fertile it makes the enemy team much harder to kill particularly when taking into account the very poor dps of the squad. They are obviously a very good counter for elementalist builds- the energy cost gain is much harsher on them, the placing of fertile season makes it difficult to suddenly spike and kill someone before a heal can go their way, we can drop winnowing without worrying about the extra damage comming our way, and so on. The spirits are certainly a kink in the works for the opposing team, and when our team works to try and take advantage of the new world restrictions, we certainly have an advantage but not an insurmountable one.

So how do you beat these teams? Let me make it simple- kill the spirits. An AOE chucked on them is a fast kill, as they have low health, have a 60 sec recharge time, have a long cast time, and lastly you only really need to kill those spirits which give *you* troubles. You can have the ghostly attack them while you focus on their team, you can put down edge of extinction so that all of their spirits fall after one dies, or you can actually move out of range of the spirits. The range is large true, but not insanely so- you can wait for them to drop their spirits, and then draw them out of range so that they are forced to redrop - (in guild matches, running past them and heading towards the direction of the guild lord will make them scramble after you).

In the end I think the only thing wrong with spirit builds is the fact that you can block with them. But thats a problem I think holds with body blocking in general. I don't like it when players do it either- maybe it'd be a bit better if the latency was perfect, but being blody blocked for me usually equates to being rubber banded. Plus its annoying as hell on relic runs.

Avon Helvek
02-07-2005, 16:02
This is very true, but this can happen with any sort of build if run very well and you can destroy other teams with it. Our guild used to run a spirit build focusing on greater conflag/winter/mantra of frost, but with our lack of offensive power (as our ranger then couldn't use poison arrow, which helped a lot), and, after being destroyed in the CTR match in Tombs, so we ditched it. However, in a previous match, another team noticed how they were only dealing 1 or 2 damage per hit and started screaming 'hackers' at us when we scored a flawless victory. These are just people without skill/teamwork that get jealous when losing. Ignore them.
Another similar thing happened when we ran a guild spike group in team arenas (while connected via vent). We had our uber protection monk, a tank, me (as a nuker), and another air nuker. We timed our spikes via vent so a lightning surge and two lightning orbs at 16 air magic each would hit at the same time, immediately followed by two strikes. We scored another flawless victory against the team (our 12th straight win or something) and the other team began screaming 'hacker's and 'cheaters'. This will happen a lot on gw pvp, and it has become common.

sonofcalculator
02-07-2005, 16:09
We faced one in HoH. Our Team was a condition/degen team and there was another team of Americans there.

Our damage output wasn't enough combined, even when focusing on one target to get it down to half health.

But then again it was korea and they had level 16 spirits.

Which bring up the fact that using these spirits completely counters the negative effects of having superior runes on.

Wind Cast
02-07-2005, 16:35
Our clan run a spriit build, 2 ot 3 rangers uselly, we foucus on great con and winter, we dont use mantra, we dont spam sprits , but we make sure thoughs who attack our sprots die quickly, i wont tell people our exact build.

But 3 GB's we have faced we have been called hackers a cheaters when eenmys are deadling 2 to 6 damage every hit, and we dont just use spirits, we use loads of differnt tatics to bing the damge down.

Aslo rember the sprits affect your team and theres mening they have made a build to take advantage of itm but wasted many skill slots to do so.
If your team is skillfull they should be able to use spirits in there favour.

Merls The Sneaky
02-07-2005, 16:49
Remember its not "cheating " or " exploiting" till anet says so.

Lay a spirit down for me next GVG

:happy14:

relight
02-07-2005, 17:57
well IMO, certain spirits such as the super popular "Natures Renewal"

I mean its like the wall of the profane with an insanely large AOE+long lasting time+doesnt need a corspe.. its ridiculious how a single skill slot can screw up all the prot monks and mesmers

SinFiery
02-07-2005, 20:25
As long as edge of extinction exits, no one can call for a nerf to spirit teams.

Croix Rheymis
02-07-2005, 22:26
You can probably reapply enchants and hexes more rapidly than they wait for renewal's recharge. All it really does is clean the battlefield and balance both teams.

Corka
03-07-2005, 01:12
well IMO, certain spirits such as the super popular "Natures Renewal"

I mean its like the wall of the profane with an insanely large AOE+long lasting time+doesnt need a corspe.. its ridiculious how a single skill slot can screw up all the prot monks and mesmers

No its not. Well of profane targets only the enemy team, and makes it so they cannot have enchantments. Natures renewel removes all enchants and all hexes on *all* players but only on drop. They can be recast, but with twice the casting speed. Its got a huge recharge time on it, and a wooping 5 secs of activation time. So it is not really spammable, and a longer cast time on hexes and enchants isn't the be all and end all. Plus it makes it a trickier job for the monks on the team as well- with a build like this we won't take divine boon or peace and harmony so in general our healing is lesser.

FYI - level 16 spirits are impossible. Having fertile season is hardly a 'counter' to having superior runes on. If we used sup runes on every part of our bodies then as soon as fertile went down we would be dead. Even with fertile up having 4 sup runes would still be a significant drop. Anyway, for general combat a ranger team probably wouldn't use fertile season- mainly its for holding the alter and for going against spike groups. The fact that with a degen team you weren't able to take them below half health doesn't have so much to do with spirits as it does with their good active monks. Long sustainable degen on multiple party members is how you take down people with fertile season up.

Seriously, if you are so worried about these skills why don't you go and read up here on gwonline as to what spirits can be laid and what they do? For the most part they aren't particularly stellar.

Croix Rheymis
03-07-2005, 01:17
If you have four runes with level 8 fertile season on, you still have a health gain of 174.

dorafish
03-07-2005, 06:58
SPirits by themselves don't bother me
Spirits coupled with oath shot really bothers me.
The 60 second recast means nothing when a ranger can use oath shot and drop all their spirits all over again.

hahnsoo
03-07-2005, 07:17
SPirits by themselves don't bother me
Spirits coupled with oath shot really bothers me.
The 60 second recast means nothing when a ranger can use oath shot and drop all their spirits all over again.Gee, so they can lay down another spirit? This isn't much of an advantage, since they don't stack with themselves. Sure, lots of spirits make the effect harder to remove and it can be annoying in large masses. But Oath Shot is a poor choice of an Elite simply to multiply your spirit casting. A dedicated ritualist is going to be using Quickening Zephyr anyway to halve their cooldown times... Oath Shot isn't going to help them much, and takes up the valuable Elite slot.

dorafish
03-07-2005, 07:46
Prevents the killing of spirits tho *shrug*.
With oath shot, you only need 1 ranger to keep all the spirits up and running instead of 2 or 3.
Another 2 characters. I'd rather have that than another ranger elite, wouldn't you?

SmallTownKilla
03-07-2005, 08:34
This may sound a little stupid but I am still new to the game and i was wondering how exactly the spirits kill every one. -thanks

hahnsoo
03-07-2005, 08:48
Prevents the killing of spirits tho *shrug*.
With oath shot, you only need 1 ranger to keep all the spirits up and running instead of 2 or 3.
Another 2 characters. I'd rather have that than another ranger elite, wouldn't you?I'd rather lay down a Quickening Zephyr first, allowing me to lay down up to 5 spirits at a time of the same type (depending on the particular Nature Ritual), meaning an average of 15 to 20 spirits on the field at a time from just one Ranger. Most teams that use Ranger spirit builds incorporate Quickening Zephyr anyway to increase Ele/Monk spell costs and to decrease spirit/stance cooldown. Oath Shot does NOT appreciably increase Spirit loadout, since the main limitation is casting time (5 seconds per spirit) rather than cooldown (which Quickening Zephyr/Serpent's Quickness takes care of). The Elite that is chosen most often is Greater Conflagration for a dedicated ritualist anyway.

ManaCraft
03-07-2005, 10:09
If you have four runes with level 8 fertile season on, you still have a health gain of 174.

A moot point. How much health would a character with no superiors effectively gain? The full amount, instead of a crappy 174, yes? That is an effective difference in health, no matter the semantics.

Fertile season does not "negate" anything at all. And as previously stated, it works both ways.


ManaCraft

Aviyur
03-07-2005, 14:51
Erm...when a ranger goes ritualist...and theres usually about 3, arent they removing themselves from doing any decent damage because they carry a whole load of spirits and just spam em around? if this is the case then technically your fighting a team of 5...just my thoughts

Svenn
03-07-2005, 20:38
But then again it was korea and they had level 16 spirits.Whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis? Level 10 is the max spirit that can be casted.

HappyPants
03-07-2005, 22:50
Spirits don't need to be nerfed, they pathing and lag issues just need to be fixed with them. There are also some design issues in PvP with spirits such as fertile season and king of the hill maps. I was in a king of the will map where for the entire 10 minutes the 3 teams went at it on the alter and not a single person died on any team. Spirits were being targeted and killed but there were simply to many of them.

roselan
04-07-2005, 15:15
spirits are very easily killable. One ele needs one aoe... When you consider that it takes skill 8 spots at least to have an efficient spirit based team...

It is very hard work to keep them up against team who knows they have to get SOME of them down. An air team only needs winter and maybe quick zeph, fertile seaon down. So the spirit team need to double them...

nearly 2 player dedicated to spirits, and an enemy team can as well take advantage of it! enemy rangers will be more than happy with great conf, winter read the wind arround. Adren warriors will benefit of quick zéphir, memsers will love it too (the spam the energy regen faster).

All in all, spirits are strong right now just because people don't know how to counter them. As soon as it will be known, people will laugh when running into a spirit team...

Hurin66
05-07-2005, 02:18
I fully agree with you that there is nothing wrong with spirit builds.

But people are right to be pissed, What about all those teams in HoH that are using that gay edge of extinction exploit.
I mean really, and its not random people either if i wanted to i could give names, and a lot of those names would be of top 50 guilds.

IMO half of the pvp scene is discovering the next exploit, first the baltha aura now this, and ANET doesnt even do anything about them. Sure they banned the people getting xp at augry (who btw were not hurting any1 else through exploits).

But what about all the people that abuse exploits in pvp ? Nope they are still playing and finding new ones.

hahnsoo
05-07-2005, 10:04
But people are right to be pissed, What about all those teams in HoH that are using that gay edge of extinction exploit.
What exploit are you talking about exactly? The only thing that I've seen so far is the "Suicidal Necro" builds that wipe out an entire team due to EoE damage and Putrid Explosions/Death Novas. It's hardly an exploit when the spirit is being used to its full advantage and there is a fairly easy way to counter it. You just have to see it coming.

bbbb
05-07-2005, 12:35
People don't know how much hard work it is to put spirits up. You don't just put it there and it is done. You have to time it right as to when and what spirit to put in to gain the benefit for the group.

Remeber spirits affect the whole area so that's mean the opposing team has the same effect as you do.

Hmm...our monk is using healing seed and aegis. Let's put Nature Renewal. LOL! What will happen if you do that? You screw up your whole team.

This is all about skill and teamwork. All good teams won't complaint in tomb if they get kill by spirits group.

Aviyur
05-07-2005, 12:50
Also...5 second casting time.....When i see an ele using something like meteor shower...i laugh, and use my slowest interupt possible Punishing Shot, Savage Shot...or something else...and no-one can disrupt a 5 second ritual?

sokem
05-07-2005, 15:25
There is nothing wrong with this build, people screaming for nerfs and calling it an exploit obviously dont have the brain power to think around the problem and come up with a solution, there are quite a few ways to get aroudn this spirit build and at the same time it makes Rangers wanted in groups again :)

** wonders what the next pvp phase will be **

dorafish
06-07-2005, 04:25
** wonders what the next pvp phase will be **

Im guessing mesmers or warriors.
Necros, rangers, and eles have all had their potentials recognized. Warriors and mesmers have not. Already, mesmers are getting some recognition for new builds (eg. fragility build).
And when i say warriors, i dont mean the dumbass healing/sword W/Mo, but one that knows they don't bring the main damage to the table, and are more like physical up-close mesmers, using disruptions and conditions.

roselan
06-07-2005, 08:18
my bet on protection elem/monks...

sokem
06-07-2005, 14:17
with the ranger build on the increase i've seen more hammer warrior/aftershock builds recently, just another example of the balance in this game its amazing.

monks will always be needed, i dont think they will ever have a phase even of pure smite monks but people are more recently getting use to using necros and mesmers and they have had a big impact on the way pvp is now played.

those koreans have been running quite a few '2 mesmer' team builds which are hell to play against, one thing the ranger build guarentees at the moment is rangers getting used, to do the same thing or to counter the other spirits with edge of extinction ;)

XeroTheta
06-07-2005, 14:45
I see nothing wrong with the Spirit groups. People cried foul when they "couldn't" beat the Air ele groups. They died out in less than a month, easily counterable. Spirit groups are just the next big thing.

Svenn
06-07-2005, 19:36
People cried foul when they "couldn't" beat the Air ele groups. They died out in less than a month, easily counterable.There are many groups still using the air ele build with good success, even occasionally in Team Arenas.

Ritualistic Suicide
06-07-2005, 20:26
As new builds are discoverd and refined you will start to see combo builds. Once people get the spirit build down, you'll start to see spirit/Spike groups. Or Spike/knockdown groups. and once dual combo groups are perfected you will start to see even greater number's of combo's. Im gueseing stuff like Mass minion/Spirit/Spike. And such PvP will just get more and more complex and people will keep calling out for Nerf's since they got beat.

Suicide

IWantMORIDIN
09-07-2005, 05:59
How exactly do spirit spamming groups win if they dont have good damage?

ejxits
09-07-2005, 21:39
Hate to be an antagonist but:

1) It doesn't matter when the ranger lays down the spirt "for maximum effect" all the currently used spirit builds i've seen lay down the spirits simply as fast as they can.

2) They effectively eliminate the uses of mesmers, prot monks, and necromancers: degen becomes useless and hexes and enchants become useless. You can use those three professions with the build, but only if you know what the build is, which the enemy team will not.

3) Spirit "spamming" is much easier for the person maintaining the spirits than some of you realise... It requires one person on the team to maintain all spirits, and there are several methods of doing this named in the post above.

4) It requires very little skill to have these builds be less successful. If it did, they would not be so popular or so widely used... Unless every team using them was so gifted. I have even seen pick up groups beat well organised guilds using vent using that build.

In conclusion, the reason that spirits need to be nerfed is that the only builds that can beat them have to be created specifically to counter this type of build, which makes them useless against any other type of build. On the first tombs map my group faced a korean anti-spirits build with almost only aoes, no prot monks, no hexers. We destroyed them easily.

It obviously needs to be nerfed, but only to prevent spirit "spamming". Two ideas that have occured to me are that with each spirit your team has up the energy cost of the skill goes up, or a maximum of somewhere between 3 to 6 spirits that can be up on your team at any time.

Skyy High
09-07-2005, 22:05
Well, you're obviously in the minority in thinking that, so unless you think ANet is going to bend over backwards to please you personally...

ejxits
10-07-2005, 00:08
Well, you're obviously in the minority in thinking that, so unless you think ANet is going to bend over backwards to please you personally...

Just because I'm in the minority doesn't mean I'm wrong... your gonna have to do better than that. :P BTW I didn't actually propose nerfing spirits directly, just making so u couldn't spam them ;).

Fellblade
11-07-2005, 00:41
Some things I have noticed:

-Rituals are spammed, people say that having more than 1 of the same ritual up at the same time is not an advantage and they are wrong. Having more than one spirit makes them that much harder to remove.

-Rangers often use Oath Shot as a means of spamming rituals, very hard to stop.

-Edge of Extinction IS NOT the way to beat spirits. Though it is helpful for eliminating spirits, it's easily taken out and spirits dont all die. Then they simply spam some more.

-Maxed out Fertile Season (which i believe to be lvl 11) which gives over 500 health is the ULTIMATE way to defend altars. It is nearly impossible to kill a team who spams this and uses heal area.


This is probably the most unbalancing ritual there is, how do you kill a team dedicated to defending their fertile seasons? If anyone can come up with a way to defeat a spirit team that is also capable of winning against other teams, then I think things are fine the way they are. But if not, then I think rituals should be changed so that they are less spammable, and less powerful (especially fertile season).


Changes I think would be reasonable:

1. 16 Beast Mastery should only get a +250 health fertile season. Over +500 is just ridiculous. 250 negates the effects of 3 superior runes (not including vigor obviously) and still gives +25.

2. 1 ritual per ranger at a time (of one type). If a ranger puts down a nature's renewal and then uses oath shot to recharge it and puts down another, the first ritual he put down should die. If a team wants to have multiple spirits, they should need to use multiple rangers, thereby eliminating the 2 "free character slots" that oath shot would free up in terms of ritual spammers.

These are just my opinions, whether or not anyone agrees with me I don't really care. I just feel that spirits have become a "cheap" way to win and although they require alot of skill to be perfect with, they are just "the easy way out".

Comment appreciated.

Aviyur
11-07-2005, 03:03
I move that every skill and skill bar be removed from guild wars....also....take away classes so theres one class, remove all levels and customization, take away armour and give everyone mallets.... That should eliminate people using the game to its full potential. And then we can all slug it out in the HoH where the winner is the one that hits first :happy34:

RaithTheDark
11-07-2005, 03:08
500 HP? I doubt that. When my season was lvl 8 it gave 270 hp, when I raised beastmastery to 13 it became lvl 9 and gave 290 hp. I seriously doubt that 2 more lvls would nearly double it. It is likely 330 hp.

hahnsoo
11-07-2005, 03:09
In conclusion, the reason that spirits need to be nerfed is that the only builds that can beat them have to be created specifically to counter this type of build, which makes them useless against any other type of build.This is a fallacy. The whole point of the Metagame is the fact that in order to win consistently, you'll have to see which way the winds are blowing. If the flavor of the month is Ranger spirit builds, you run anti-Spirit or take advantage of the Spirits you know you are going to face. If the flavor of the month is Aeromancers, you run a protection or spirit build. Just because your Rock beats my Scissors doesn't mean that the game is broken or Rock needs to be nerfed. The game was designed such that you have to choose between versatility and specialization, with specialization gaining more of the wins.

If Spirits dominate the game one month from now, then we'll start talking nerfs.

ColdwaveKid
11-07-2005, 06:28
People need to step back and see that GW is a thinking man's game. To be more skilled in the game, you need to think of counter builds. Everybuild has a counter. And effective counters.

Want to butcher a spirit team, interrupt the casting of the spirits and oath shot. When they are up cast some level 0 spirits mixed with a higher level edge of extinction. As the timer is about up, cast area of effect spells to clear a path to the alter.

This game should be about tactics, not begging ANET to makes builds you cannot easily beaten made illegal.

ejxits
03-08-2005, 01:00
This is a fallacy. The whole point of the Metagame is the fact that in order to win consistently, you'll have to see which way the winds are blowing. If the flavor of the month is Ranger spirit builds, you run anti-Spirit or take advantage of the Spirits you know you are going to face. If the flavor of the month is Aeromancers, you run a protection or spirit build. Just because your Rock beats my Scissors doesn't mean that the game is broken or Rock needs to be nerfed. The game was designed such that you have to choose between versatility and specialization, with specialization gaining more of the wins.

If Spirits dominate the game one month from now, then we'll start talking nerfs.

The fact is, the example you mention is easily countered by one spell: protective spirit. Could you come up with one skill that can handle spirit builds entirely? I also note that while you mention what can counter an air spike, you do not know what can counter a spirit build to any effective degree. If rock beats scissors, the game is fair, but if rock beats scissors and paper, then rock needs to be nerfed. It is almost one month from your post, so I suggest you start talking nerfs.




People need to step back and see that GW is a thinking man's game. To be more skilled in the game, you need to think of counter builds. Everybuild has a counter. And effective counters.

Want to butcher a spirit team, interrupt the casting of the spirits and oath shot. When they are up cast some level 0 spirits mixed with a higher level edge of extinction. As the timer is about up, cast area of effect spells to clear a path to the alter.

This game should be about tactics, not begging ANET to makes builds you cannot easily beaten made illegal.

You contradict yourself. You say every build has an effective counter, and yet you also admit that it is extraordinarily hard to come up with a counter build that has any degree of usefulness against other builds. All builds have an effective counter, but what if that effective counter destroys the effectiveness of the counter against other builds? Also: what is the spirit spammer's incentive to kill the level 0 spirits? If they dont attack them (which they most likely wont, since they want as many spirits as possible,) then these spirits are simply wasted skill slots. And edge of extinction's effect is nothing compared with the health gain spirits get from fertile season. I also did not suggest making spirit builds illegal, only counterable.

Pyro Gl
03-08-2005, 05:52
A-net must definitely see a decent counter. if this spirit spamming wasn't expected they would have done something long ago. don't forget they did design every skill and that must have takes some thought. give them a little more credit.

listen
03-08-2005, 06:42
true they balanced the game long before.if it wasnt i trust them that they would already have done something.

so please end the whines and go think of counters instead of just waiting and whining.

looking through posts people keep saying kill the spirits. wats the use? kill the spirits ranger just add more. go for the source! who? the ranger of course?kill the source voila no more spirits keep them busy trying to save themselfs.

Dr Funk
03-08-2005, 07:23
There's a difference between spirit builds that make use of rituals to change the rules in their favor and a spirit spam that causes lots of secondary effects which are unneccessary and unwanted. A few of these that I see are...

1) Lag: While necro minion master builds could probably cause more line-havoc than a pile of immobile spirits, those at least require a corpse, so the chances of me facing twenty minions at a time is a little slim. I get annoyed when people do things that specifically target my hardware instead of me.

2) Targetting: Using spirits as a means of hiding is a pretty crappy way to play, since it's imposing a user-interface shortcoming on my gameplay. While you can focus fire to get everyone on the target you want shot, this is just a workaround to deal with something that is not an intended feature of spirits. They weren't meant to be blocking dummies.

3) Class Devaluation: While it's totally fair to say "Hey, this just gives the 'bit-of-everything' class a good anti-hex ritual" it's crappy when it makes several otherwise viable team builds absolutely worthless. Spirit builds do not instantly remove a team from play in a 'wtfpwned' fashion, but a lot of the solutions I've seen involve Edge of Extinction. Using rangers to beat rangers still means that other classes are useless, at least without ranger escorts, and that dramatically lessens the value of the other characters in PvP. There should rarely be a circumstance where more than one of a single character type is better than two different character types. I'm not a fan of Ele+Ele+Ele+Monk type teams, since I think a balanced team offers us the player more customization, and doesn't force a group of us to be called useless.


Now, before I finish, I don't want them nerfed--I just want some of the particular GAMEPLAY issues looked at. The negative effects on lag and targetting involved in a giant wall of spirits aren't acceptable reasons to use them, and just constitute an exploit. I'd be happy with them being invincible and unable to be spammed, as well as non-blocking (so I can pass through them) and untargetable. Then the only issue is, "Are their effects unfair?" And that's a completely seperate issue.

Sainte
03-08-2005, 09:21
I have played VS some ranger spirit spam builds and sometimes, if you get unorganized PUG teams, you can win. A good team, with many spirits can be hell to kill. For example in GvG, capping flag and spamming spirits so the other team cant get to the flag is a rather poor way of playing.

I dont say nerf the spirits, I say make them not a factor of Targetting and so that players can walk through them.

deya
03-08-2005, 12:46
Natures renewal is simply ****ing the game over, how in earth can you guys say that it's not overpowered while it RAPES 90% of the possible builds eh.

Last night we played MULTIPLE ranger teams with spirit spamming while using quickshot+kindle arrows, it's more than insta kill for monks, how you gonna protect the monk when natures dropping all the time?

Aire
03-08-2005, 13:32
Last night we played MULTIPLE ranger teams with spirit spamming while using quickshot+kindle arrows, it's more than insta kill for monks, how you gonna protect the monk when natures dropping all the time?

Its easy enough - we had a party of 8 being kept alive by 2 healing monks under Quickening, Favourable, Natures, Greater Conflag, Winter, that sort of stuff

You just have to expect Quickening now, and take a monk that can cope with it...

/Aire :)

HellToupee
03-08-2005, 23:30
yea inother words dump half of the skills most monks carry

Icy Spicy
04-08-2005, 01:31
This may sound a little stupid but I am still new to the game and i was wondering how exactly the spirits kill every one. -thanks

the answer is it doesnt... usually they cant kill anybody... most of the time the team just keep droping spirits so you cant even walk up to them, targeting with tab is almost impossible... map gets filled with colored dots, then the lag... once you become bored and leave, they win...

i doubt they'll fix much... but the blocking, targeting issue and lag must be fixed...

ColdwaveKid
04-08-2005, 02:53
The more I see this this, the key seems to be for a fix if Nature's Renewal is done then a second one placed will not trigger the enchantment and hex removal.

If this is added, then the mesmers and necros should be able to start tearing down rangers.

Dr Funk
04-08-2005, 03:59
Rangers have a lot of skills, and though spirits are good, they really don't need to form the backbone of a ranger's arsenal, let alone of the team the ranger is on. When I first started my ranger, I thought that quite naturally I'd only be allowed one spirit, of any type, out at once. To me, the idea I could cast Winter AND Greater Conflaguration together was a 'what if' sort of daydream, until I actually started using spirits and found I could cast them as much as I wanted--and was allowed. Generally, in PvE, this isn't a problem. I can drop my spirit now, fight, but then I need to head onwards and it's not like it follows me. But in PvP, it seems things get a lot stickier.

Really, spirit builds may not be an abuse of the game, but they change the game so much that it's just kinda goofy. I still think it's smart to address the issue, since rangers do damage, lay traps, command beasts, apply a crapload of status effects AND cast spirits as is. If they reduced the ability to spam spirits, if only to alleviate the targetting and walling hell that it causes, I don't think rangers would be any less useful--they'd just be used for what they were intended to be.

It's like if by some bug you could exploit a warrior 'Endure/Defy' pain combo to forget what your old maximum health was, and stack them up so that when they wear off, you're still at a semi-permanent +200 health. Not like another 200 health would make it so warriors were utterly unstoppable, but an uintended effect is not always 'fair'

WarriorNecroMan
04-08-2005, 11:06
There is nothing wrong with this build, people screaming for nerfs and calling it an exploit obviously dont have the brain power to think around the problem and come up with a solution, there are quite a few ways to get aroudn this spirit build and at the same time it makes Rangers wanted in groups again :)

** wonders what the next pvp phase will be **

People ask for nerfs because a lot of spirit builds are used not to win in a true sense (kill all opposing members or win the challenge), but to wait out the other opponents till they quit or lag out. And yes, there are counters to the spirit build (do not assume people do not have the brain power to counter, believe me many rank 5 people have tried), hard as it is, but when you make a team specialized just to counter spirit teams (an all memser group for example) you are completely useless in HoH as you will be wiped out fairly easily because you do not have the proper skills armed to fight in a normal pvp battle, and might not even reach the spirit team to face off with them. If you try to bring a balanced amount of skills to win in HoH, you reach the spirit spamming team and realize you don't have the exact combination of skills to counter them. Its not a matter of whether or not you are creative enough to come up with the right counter, its whether or not this is feasible in HoH. No team made up of a combination of builds just for defeating spirit teams will be very effective against good teams in HoH IMHO.

WarriorNecroMan
04-08-2005, 11:21
true they balanced the game long before.if it wasnt i trust them that they would already have done something.

so please end the whines and go think of counters instead of just waiting and whining.

looking through posts people keep saying kill the spirits. wats the use? kill the spirits ranger just add more. go for the source! who? the ranger of course?kill the source voila no more spirits keep them busy trying to save themselfs.


Read the post about the grief build in this forum, you'll see that

a) Rangers become very hard to kill (even with aoe, spikes, curses, hexes) when they spam spirits and drop Healing, especially when there is a group of 8 rangers who know the build inside and out clumped in a group all casting the same things

b) Yes there are counters (whether they are effective or not is another debate), but you shouldn't go to the HoH (where this spirit spamming actually matters and cause the distress to people) with a group designed purely for countering a spirit build team. This will be very ineffective against any other balanced team IMO. You may say "well bring a diverse group", but in reading other posts and proposed counters, only a very specific combination of builds, usually all of the same class seem to work effectively as a counter

c) its not whining, we are just expressing our distress at the way this build(which is not feasible in a real HoH or pvp situation, only in theory comparing builds to counter the spirit build, because of the balanced group problem explained above) completely eliminates the fun from pvp and HoH in particular, and how the spirits are being used to stall the game, and waiting for the other team to lose patience and quit is the key to victory, which I believe would not have been arena.net's original intention.

d) In response to someone's comment that arena.net would've fixed this exploit if it really was an exploit, this is not necessarily true. We still have that stupid knight's armor problem of how the damage reduction is global and do not stack, hence eliminating the point of buying a complete knights/ascalon armor set. Why create a matching set of armor when only one piece will do the same job as having all 5, not to mention the armor is less. When you read "reduces damage from attacks" it would be intuitive to think, "hey, if I had more pieces, I'd get more damage reduction", but we all know this is not the case, and is another "glitch" that has yet to be addressed.

Malchiel
04-08-2005, 11:59
NR can be cast once every 10 seconds =_=

It's an AOE enchant and hex removal. Which counters 1/2 of GW classes.

Other spirit counters the other 1/2 =_=

Every forum has been clamoring about this issue. TGH the most PvP oriented forums have complained with almost 100% agreement that it IS overpowered.

Spirits need to go. Especially NR. They should be made such that enchants won't be removed.

In arena of course spirit sux. And are easily counterable. It's in tomb or GvG, especially tomb, where spirits become ridiculously overpowered.

ejxits
07-08-2005, 17:06
Most people will probably concur that to some degree, natures renewal is overpowered, even people who have been saying that spirit spamming builds are not overpowered. Something should definately be done, especially as its combination with oath shot makes it usable much more often than is normal. Therefore I think they should make it an elite skill so it cannot be used with oath shot.

Third Quarter
07-08-2005, 19:46
I'm not so certain anymore. The metagame has shifted.

Nature's Renewal does little to hurt short-lived enchants that can be cast in a second or less. Prot Spirit and Reversal of Fortune, for instance. Under QZ, a glyph can be used to keep Aegis up almost indefinitely. Nature's Renewal gives your opponents a window, but it's not a big one, as Aegis can go right back up in a few seconds. (unless you have more than one person casting it)

Hexes pose a bigger problem, due to their longer casting times, but a Mesmer primary can be used to compensate if necessary. Again, short-lived hexes like Diversion, Guilt, and Shame suffer only the occasional premature termination from Renewal.

Ranger-heavy teams tend to have trouble coping with warriors, I find. Irresistable Blow is awesome, especially on someone using Whirling Defense. Warrior's Cunning is underrated.

Nature's Renewal still strikes me as being grossly overpowered, but the metagame is marching on around it, and it does, after all, do a fantastic job of keeping the E/Mo smiter in check.

(Fertile Season on the other hand...)

The Happy Chemical
08-08-2005, 04:37
Ranger-heavy teams tend to have trouble coping with warriors, I find. Irresistable Blow is awesome, especially on someone using Whirling Defense. Warrior's Cunning is underrated.

Yeah, my ranger team had a really hard time coping with warriors when we blocked the entrance to our spawn/priest with 20+ spirits. [/sarcasm]

Keir M
08-08-2005, 05:25
For me its become a fairly simple question. I won't keep playing if something doesn't change. I just spend 25 minutes with 2 teams hacking at a ranger team till we gave up in boredom and let them kill us. The bottom line is it becomes simply no fun unless you are the Ranger geeks. Serious kill joy material, lag, slow, can't move, and this is a game that is supposed to fun. It is fun cept when playing the Ranger geeks.

Yeah give the Rangers all the globals - what an appalling bad idea that was.

Akathrielah
08-08-2005, 14:23
I'm not so certain anymore. The metagame has shifted.

Nature's Renewal does little to hurt short-lived enchants that can be cast in a second or less. Prot Spirit and Reversal of Fortune, for instance. Under QZ, a glyph can be used to keep Aegis up almost indefinitely. Nature's Renewal gives your opponents a window, but it's not a big one, as Aegis can go right back up in a few seconds. (unless you have more than one person casting it)

Hexes pose a bigger problem, due to their longer casting times, but a Mesmer primary can be used to compensate if necessary. Again, short-lived hexes like Diversion, Guilt, and Shame suffer only the occasional premature termination from Renewal.

Ranger-heavy teams tend to have trouble coping with warriors, I find. Irresistable Blow is awesome, especially on someone using Whirling Defense. Warrior's Cunning is underrated.

Nature's Renewal still strikes me as being grossly overpowered, but the metagame is marching on around it, and it does, after all, do a fantastic job of keeping the E/Mo smiter in check.

(Fertile Season on the other hand...)

Actually it does affect even the more short live enchants, because it creates an energy strain for the monks that have to keep reapplying them when Nature's is going up every 6-7 seconds. And for warriors being a problem, spirit spammers usually have a series of anti-melee skills, i.e. throw dirt or lightning reflexes.

As for E/Mo smiting, there plenty of other things that keep that in check.

Blade of Doom
09-08-2005, 23:03
Some things I have noticed:

-Rituals are spammed, people say that having more than 1 of the same ritual up at the same time is not an advantage and they are wrong. Having more than one spirit makes them that much harder to remove.

-Rangers often use Oath Shot as a means of spamming rituals, very hard to stop.

-Edge of Extinction IS NOT the way to beat spirits. Though it is helpful for eliminating spirits, it's easily taken out and spirits dont all die. Then they simply spam some more.

-Maxed out Fertile Season (which i believe to be lvl 11) which gives over 500 health is the ULTIMATE way to defend altars. It is nearly impossible to kill a team who spams this and uses heal area.


This is probably the most unbalancing ritual there is, how do you kill a team dedicated to defending their fertile seasons? If anyone can come up with a way to defeat a spirit team that is also capable of winning against other teams, then I think things are fine the way they are. But if not, then I think rituals should be changed so that they are less spammable, and less powerful (especially fertile season).


Changes I think would be reasonable:

1. 16 Beast Mastery should only get a +250 health fertile season. Over +500 is just ridiculous. 250 negates the effects of 3 superior runes (not including vigor obviously) and still gives +25.

2. 1 ritual per ranger at a time (of one type). If a ranger puts down a nature's renewal and then uses oath shot to recharge it and puts down another, the first ritual he put down should die. If a team wants to have multiple spirits, they should need to use multiple rangers, thereby eliminating the 2 "free character slots" that oath shot would free up in terms of ritual spammers.

These are just my opinions, whether or not anyone agrees with me I don't really care. I just feel that spirits have become a "cheap" way to win and although they require alot of skill to be perfect with, they are just "the easy way out".

Comment appreciated.


Well, here's my comment: Rangers can be easily countered. And, 16 BM doesn't give +500... You mean, +300.