PDA

View Full Version : Condition Spreader w/ Fragility



terakhan
27-11-2005, 04:53
Got thinking about fragility and how much you can do with it, and I came up with this build:
16 Illusion
10 Death
10 Inspiration

or

16 Illusion
12 Death
6 Inspiration

just depends on how you want to go.

Epidemic
Fragility
Phantom Pain
Virulence
Rotting Flesh
Plague Touch
Energy Tap
Res Signet

Assuming for some reason, a warrior with 480 health to start (runes)
Using 25 energy, cast Phantom Pain and Fragility.
Wait 10 seconds or until Phantom Pain goes poof. At a full 10 seconds, they will be sitting at 403 health, complete with the first fragility shot.

Use 5 energy to hit them with virulence (adding disease, poison, and weakness to the condition list, and doing an extra 51 damage and 8 pips degen from both disease and poison. They should now be at 325.

Another 15 energy used after 5 seconds (or longer if you can manage it, but not longer than 10 seconds) nail them with epidemic. The conditions are transfered, and they take 68 damage, leaving them at 204 health or less.

Provided they had a nearby ally who is still close enough, hit that person with epidemic as well, returning the conditions, and dealing another 68 damage, dropping them to 136 health, plus the remainder of the disease and poison conditions.

If Fragility has not been removed or ended by now, the conditions will end, hitting them for another 68, dropping them to 68 health even.

Total cost, 60 energy and about 20 seconds, result: One very sore warrior at nearly 1/8 their total life, just waiting for a good spike from somewhere.

Like any build, there are counters, but I don't think many will be prepared for this at all. Most frag builds I have seen rely on shatter delusions and phantom pain entirely, just spamming the two until they die or kill you.

So, in theory we have a good, fast condition build that doesnt require you to endlessly spam Phantom Pain and Shatter Delusions. I am away from my pc, but I would love some people to try it out and give some feedback on it.

MrBurninator
27-11-2005, 14:25
Another 15 energy used after 5 seconds (or longer if you can manage it, but not longer than 10 seconds) nail them with epidemic. The conditions are transfered, and they take 68 damage, leaving them at 204 health or less.

This is where the build goes wrong. Epidemic doesn't actually do what it says. The person you cast it on still has the conditions until they normally wear out.

The Harlequin
27-11-2005, 19:18
Dewd, Epidemic has a 15 second cooldown. Don't think you're going to spam it. If you're talking PvP, the Frag->Vir spike works when people can't react to it, like when they're focused on another target. Once they see what you're doing, you're enemy #1.

Sir Cowelot
27-11-2005, 21:03
I always wondered if this would work for TA

Me/N
E/Me
Possible ranger for easy condition giving

The idea is for the Me/N and the E/Me to do arcane echo and fragility to give fragility to all four the opponents, then you'll give fevered dreams to your condition-giver-opponent-person and then give him a condition (pp+shatter delusion or pin downetc.) and then virulence them. Then all the opponents should have those conditions and then the E/Me casts crystal wave for.

I have no idea if this is do-able (with energy/time etc) or even if it does enough damage to be effective, it's just something I though up while I had nothing to do :P
A Mo/N with martyr and plague touch/sending would be a fun addition to the party too

Comments are very welcome

Wasteland Squidget
27-11-2005, 23:10
I've run into a build like that. It's interesting and it managed to push us back to our priest in Burial Mounds (mainly due to the suprise factor), but we won in the end.

One problem is that while Fevered Dreams has a nice ward radius, once any decent player sees it on them they'll get away from their teammates. As soon as the opposition sees you using it they'll just keep distance from each other and pretty soon you won't be getting any use out of Fevered at all.

Secondly, conditions are generally pretty easy to remove. While throwing Fragility around would help damage a bit, Martyr would still be removing the conditions themselves too quickly for any real effect.

It's not a bad idea, but it won't work against a good organized team in my opinion.

terakhan
28-11-2005, 00:34
1. That sucks. Admittedly, I was tired when I posted it, but I usually check cooldown times. So ignore one of the 68 damage packets then.

2. I never once mentioned fevered dreams. The elite I used is virulence (which sadly I forgot I havent unlocked it yet, but it still goes well in CA. Cut a warrior in half with it, even without virulence.

ultimastrike
28-11-2005, 00:41
1. That sucks. Admittedly, I was tired when I posted it, but I usually check cooldown times. So ignore one of the 68 damage packets then.

2. I never once mentioned fevered dreams. The elite I used is virulence (which sadly I forgot I havent unlocked it yet, but it still goes well in CA. Cut a warrior in half with it, even without virulence.

Actually, ignore BOTH 68 damage packets because you can't cast epidemic twice in the period of time that poison, disease and weakness last.

camo carol
28-11-2005, 05:06
haha

good try dude but i cant make it work

for fragility my personal favorite is

soul barbs
fragility
conjure phantasm
virulence
wastrels worry

i use the other spots for defensive/energy/life spells and res sig, theres really no reason to blast through all you energy on one person. plus, with assistance you would really be wasting energy, and without good protection.. your goin down in a hurry

so feel free to criticize my build but it works for me :)

terakhan
28-11-2005, 05:13
Not criticizing, just curious. What do you use to generate conditions on that? I see nothing at all that could cause the first condition, so both fragility and virulence are confusing (unless its a team arena build or something).

Like I said though. I did the theory. Like many theories, it was lacking some details, and was proven as just theory, and not fact. Not that I mind. I play PvP in GW for the same reason I still play MtG. Mental stimulation and creativity. If my idea doesnt work, I remember what parts of it did, scrap the rest, and move on. In this case, it was not reading Epidemic entirely that killed it.

Findariel
28-11-2005, 13:36
Wait 10 seconds or until Phantom Pain goes poof.
10 seconds waiting .. hmm ..
I played a hex build with soul barbs and Wastrel's, never tried Fragility yet.
The standard build for that seems Phantom Pain - Shatter Delusions to inflict a deep wound, after which Virulence can be added.

What I always wondered about is why players don't use Phantom Pain - Fragility - Enfeeble - Virulence?

That way you can immediately start casting Virulence since it is already triggered by Enfeeble, after 10 secs Phantom Pain sets in and with a low death magic atribute Virulence expires pretty fast and triggers Fragility twice in a matter of a few seconds.

Manusje
28-11-2005, 14:13
What I always wondered about is why players don't use Phantom Pain - Fragility - Enfeeble - Virulence?

That way you can immediately start casting Virulence since it is already triggered by Enfeeble, after 10 secs Phantom Pain sets in and with a low death magic atribute Virulence expires pretty fast and triggers Fragility twice in a matter of a few seconds.

I used this build before the nerf of Fragility after using the standard Frag-Viru build. I liked this one better, it's faster and less likely to be interrupted. I found that PP got interrupted too often when those builds were popular, so I switched Shatter Delusions out for Enfeeble. Made the build faster and you could spread the conditions more often.

Vexed Arcanist
28-11-2005, 16:35
If you are gonna use a build in Teams, make it a team effort.

Mesmer takes Fevered Dreams, Phantom Pain and Shatter Delusions. Use the combo on the main target after Virulence is applied.

Necro takes Virulence - can be N/W with conditions, you can replace with a E/N with Virulence and Air attacks to include Blinding Flash.

Ranger with conditions, personally I prefer Crippling Shot and Hunter's Shot, throw dirt if you want to go over the top. Can also be an Oath Shot Resolve trapper w/epidemic if you just go wild.

Mo/W with ViM.

Tsume
28-11-2005, 21:58
What I always wondered about is why players don't use Phantom Pain - Fragility - Enfeeble - Virulence?

I think its do mostly to the damage oriented thinking of a lot of players. They focus on the spike, and casting it in that way will not do 2 large doses of damage simultaneously, but will leave it a bit more spread out.

The factor of Enfeeble and Viru both giving Weakness might also play a factor, if your intending to use enfeeble to trigger the Virulence cast and then again after Phantom Pain expires. It would work out for more damage in the end, but the instant spike would be slighlty lost as it comes in 2 installments. It's trivial if your not playing against anyone with self heal, but those with self heal get an early warning.

But...I actually think it would be more effective to go with the method you laid out, damage wise. Despite two installments and heals, it should do well. You just sacrifice the Shatter Delusion damage, which people also like to use along with Phantom Pain as an insta kill on chars with low health. Give up a little of the hard punch for a few smaller punches, sorta.... heh.

The Harlequin
29-11-2005, 15:46
They focus on the spike, and casting it in that way will not do 2 large doses of damage simultaneously, but will leave it a bit more spread out.
Indeed. With Frag + PP the damage can be timed. Cast those and my target is set up. If it's a 2nd or subsequent spike in a battle I can cast those, let my energy recharge a bit, then SD + Vir once the target is too low to be healed. I've found that very important in the presense of healers. Plus I get ~50 points of damage from SD. If I'm up against Jades, I won't even bother with Frag; I'll just hit CP, PP and then time SD to be fatal.

Roy
29-11-2005, 18:31
Why would anyone want to cast Enfeeble before using Virulence? Virulence already applies Weakness which is why using Enfeeble in conjunction with it is kind of pointless, especially if you're planting PP on a foe first. The reason why the Frag > PP > SD > Vir combo is so effective (was more effective before the balance change) is because of the large damage caused by the SD spike which also triggers the Deep Wound. With a Frag mesmer running something like:

Illusion - 16
Domination - 13

Fragility
Phantom Pain
Shatter Delusions
Virulence
Blah
Blah
Blah
Rez Sig

SD should do about 75 damage alone by removing PP, and then the spike caused by the Deep Wound will normally be around 100 on a 500 hp opponent. Using degen spells, or other conditions to trigger Fragility normally either takes too long, or doesn't do enough damage before they are noticed, and then removed. This combo was efficient, and left 3 spaces open for you to fit in whatever survival/defense skills you needed.
This build is still effective, but not nearly as effective as it used to be. Frag mesmers could generally kill a fully healthy 450 hp - 500 hp target in one Frag combo, but now you either need to wear them down slightly and then apply the combo, or attack tragets which are already under attack by your team mates. Frag mesmers were hardcore dangerous when you'd face them without a monk on your team and no self heals to work with. I still play this build from time to time, but it's not as gratifying as it used to be. People used to see Fragility pop up on their screen and would just tear *** away from the fight. It's not as great a threat anymore, which is a shame.

Findariel
29-11-2005, 21:03
Yes, and next to that, Virulence got a 15 seconds cooldown in stead f 10 - a very sneaky undocumented "update" :(

Anyone ever tried a fragility & soul barbs build? Guess that will be a bit too much on the skillbar, though I can imagine it will be an effective team build?
I've seen people spamming WW on Soul Barbs, looked pretty effective?

Brisbane
29-11-2005, 23:31
Like I said though. I did the theory. Like many theories, it was lacking some details, and was proven as just theory, and not fact. Not that I mind. I play PvP in GW for the same reason I still play MtG. Mental stimulation and creativity. If my idea doesnt work, I remember what parts of it did, scrap the rest, and move on. In this case, it was not reading Epidemic entirely that killed it.

Not to worry, your theory is generating some ideas that might get us on track to a nice build. One idea I always had (haven't tried it myself) is to have points in death magic for Virulence's conditions to last longer. It could be timed to wear off just before Fragility does so you still get the spike damage plus the degeration damage of Virulence. This also might allow you to throw Epidemic on the opponent and spread those long Virulence conditions. I know surrounding opponents won't take the fragility damage but in 8v8 infecting enough people would give their monks a good headache. Just a thought though.

Vexed Arcanist
30-11-2005, 00:12
Not to worry, your theory is generating some ideas that might get us on track to a nice build. One idea I always had (haven't tried it myself) is to have points in death magic for Virulence's conditions to last longer. It could be timed to wear off just before Fragility does so you still get the spike damage plus the degeration damage of Virulence. This also might allow you to throw Epidemic on the opponent and spread those long Virulence conditions. I know surrounding opponents won't take the fragility damage but in 8v8 infecting enough people would give their monks a good headache. Just a thought though.

Unless they have a Martyr/anti-attrition monk, of course.

Roy
30-11-2005, 03:52
Unless they have a Martyr/anti-attrition monk, of course.

Yea that's ownage right there.

And with regards to increasing the duration of Virilence, that leaves more time for the foe to remove it. When the duration is 3 seconds, it's more of a sneak attack kind of thing. It's there, and then it's gone.

Brisbane
30-11-2005, 05:08
Yea that's ownage right there.

And with regards to increasing the duration of Virilence, that leaves more time for the foe to remove it. When the duration is 3 seconds, it's more of a sneak attack kind of thing. It's there, and then it's gone.

I figured it might be a little vunerable. It would be fun the couple times you get it off and transfer the conditions to a bunch of people though. Maybe it's more of a PvE idea. PvE would also give you time to recharge all the energy Fragility, Phantom Pain, Shatter Delusions, Virulence, and Epidemic are going to cost.

Tsume
30-11-2005, 08:23
Unless they have a Martyr/anti-attrition monk, of course.

I think mainly the discussion is more of the individual build, probably on a setting of random arenas. If we went into coordinated team discussions (which is just about the only place you will see Martyr), the team that is heavy on conditions will carry Signet of Humility/Diversion strictly to keep Martyr/Restore Condition/Removal spam toned down.

Brisbane, I wouldn't say its flawed really, or not useful in PvP. Theres a lot of teams that use condition focus, heck Trappers reached the height of their popularity a while back, and condition teams still run around in the Tombs now. Its a big reason why Martyr was being taken so often. But all strategy/skills are counterable/counter-counterable. I wouldn't label something useless becuase it can be shutdown. Afterall....we are Mesmers, no? I refuse to let a single monk skill terminate such an idea :P.