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Malchiel
21-01-2006, 08:21
My honest answer is...

yes...

This skill that blinds and daze for 8/12 seconds, potentially 9 with SQ... sounds like it's a tad too powerful...

It can still be removed quite easily. Monk with daze will still get rid of daze in 1/2 a second. Necro will have Plague touch, so it's not like there's no counter to it. Because there're plenty of counter condition out there, may be now those wa mos might actually bring them. May be the ritualist even has a spell or two to get rid of it. Of course even the premade comes with mantra of resolve.

However... it's not the only thing overpowered in GW atm. Take for example ranger spike, interrupt or even monk healing in certain parts of the game like arena. In fact ranger spike - interrupt is so powerful, that in successful GvG the only sure fire way to counter it is for everyone to bring distortion (yes you can bring bond, but any good ranger spiker, knows when to rend ench, and it's hard to put bonds back on). Which's very limitting build wise.

So yeah 2 wrongs don't make 1 right, but 2 lefts do. Blind + daze sound like a surefire way to kill 2 of the most powerful (if not overpowered) classes in GW atm: aka- monk and rangers. What do you think?

releasetheweasel
21-01-2006, 08:28
Two lefts don't make a right, three do. And if Anet finds it to be overpowered then I'm sure it will be dumbed down by release.

Cyador
21-01-2006, 08:51
It is pushing it I guess. In CA its almost impossible for a Monk to stop me once I'm on them--I interrupt 100% of the 1 sec casts and cover Daze with Bleeding and Deep Wound next hit. They usually survive through the attack, but thats 7 seconds they can't do much at all and I can reapply it ~4-5 seconds later.

I think things like this are needed to make Dagger Mastery viable though.

Malchiel
21-01-2006, 08:52
Okay I changed my mind. To NO. Not overpowered. There's one elite, one elite that can counter this.

An eye for an eye, sounds fair.

How about restore condition? That elite was useless before, may be it'll finally see the light of day.

shari
21-01-2006, 09:11
restore condition is one of the best monkelites in tombs btw i wouldnt call it useless :P

cokolwiek
21-01-2006, 09:43
Okay I changed my mind. To NO. Not overpowered. There's one elite, one elite that can counter this.

An eye for an eye, sounds fair.

How about restore condition? That elite was useless before, may be it'll finally see the light of day.


even mend ailmend can kill it ,coz its heals bilions of hp. Btw Temple Strike is very strong skill. And it interrupt. But imho, the biggest avantage of TS its so variable, u can "shut down" every caster AND warr/rang/ssn in just one skill!

P.S. sry for my english

Lefaras
21-01-2006, 10:22
And interrupts, evading, blocking skills can counter this skill. Just stop the lead attacks and temple strike will never occur. No, it not overpowered. There too many ways to stop it.

Phoebus
21-01-2006, 14:14
This skill is definitely overpowered. Far more game breaking than Tongue Bitter ever was.

It can be applied in 2 hits, it doesn't require any timing, it can shutdown anything in the game, it has a low energy cost and a low recharge.

GG balance

Cyador
21-01-2006, 14:50
I've been running this R/A build in TA and CA quite a bit today:

Black Mantis Thrust
Temple Strike
Twisting Fangs
Tiger's Fury
Siphon Strength
Storm Chaser
Resurrection Signet
Charm Animal

Its fairly ridiculous. If I get TS off on a Monk, they are dead unless someone else disrupts me. Anything 1 sec or longer cast is interrupted 100% of the time, and 1/4th sec casts about 50% of the time. The Monk has no way to stay alive until Daze wears off--they die before it does--and even if someone else heals their conditions they have to go through Deep Wound and Bleeding first. Probably needs a nerf, but for the love of god buff the other dagger skills.

Reikai
21-01-2006, 14:52
assassins (as far as I know) do not have any interupts. daze might help others, but this can only be really used if you havea full 8v8 CO-ORDINATED team that have been TRAINED to do this well...

possibly:

3 A/X temple strike
3 R/X MANUAL interupt
2 Mo/X Heal

Spirit of Sephiroth
21-01-2006, 14:59
Sins NEED an "overpoweredomg" skill

think about it, dmgwise, they cant compete without combo-ing

they require to be half nec if you wanna even think of soloing...

many combos require enemy to be bleeding/cursed/etc, right?

Patccmoi
21-01-2006, 15:37
I've been running this R/A build in TA and CA quite a bit today:

Black Mantis Thrust
Temple Strike
Twisting Fangs
Tiger's Fury
Siphon Strength
Storm Chaser
Resurrection Signet
Charm Animal


I can guess that any build using 2 elites can be fairly overpowered...

As for Temple Strike, i think it's the kind of skill the assassin NEEDS. Don't just think of 4v4 with only 1 monk able to remove condition, you can remove conditions with other players too.

I think it's fair personally. Do you plan for assassins to be unable to 1v1 someone?

Kyrion Hellcat
21-01-2006, 16:08
Mmmm... I think people tend to forget what is the main problem with the Assassin's attacks:

They come in secuence. If any of the 'secuence attacks' fails, the rest of the chain is ROYALLY SCREWED.

That is... if the lead attack fails (by any stance, blindness, enchantment, hex or interrupted) the rest of his Ultra-Powerful-Uber Skills are USELESS.

If you manage to place a distracting shot to the lead attack, you have effectively shutdown the assasin's offensive capabilities for a while, and you'll have a guy rolling and teleporting around the battlefield, placing some hexes.

GormWolfblade
21-01-2006, 16:19
I love Temple Strike
10/10 for RA.
I thinks it's a bit early to call it overpowered though, since as someone said it relies on the sequence and condition removal is easy. Yet I imagine it will get a nerf somehow anyway.

cokolwiek
21-01-2006, 16:41
I've been running this R/A build in TA and CA quite a bit today:

Black Mantis Thrust
Temple Strike
Twisting Fangs
Tiger's Fury
Siphon Strength
Storm Chaser
Resurrection Signet
Charm Animal

Its fairly ridiculous. If I get TS off on a Monk, they are dead unless someone else disrupts me. Anything 1 sec or longer cast is interrupted 100% of the time, and 1/4th sec casts about 50% of the time. The Monk has no way to stay alive until Daze wears off--they die before it does--and even if someone else heals their conditions they have to go through Deep Wound and Bleeding first. Probably needs a nerf, but for the love of god buff the other dagger skills.

i would like to using 2 elites in skillbar... :wink: mayby siphon speed, not strenght?

Enosh
21-01-2006, 16:42
conditions are soposed to be easy to apply and are also easy removed

so my vote goes for no

Bickety Bam
21-01-2006, 17:29
assassins (as far as I know) do not have any interupts.
You don't know too much then because I have two in my assassin build.

I voted no. Daze has always been too easy to remove and too costly to apply. This is balance. Migraine or Conundrum aren't exactly hard to apply and perform a similar function and are harder to remove unless Holy Veil is up.

Cyador
21-01-2006, 17:34
I can guess that any build using 2 elites can be fairly overpowered...
Oops, thats supposed to be Siphon Speed.

ihihih
21-01-2006, 21:31
3 different, possible combos

1: with apply poison for layering+serpent's quickness

2:with quickening zephyr ( might be better for R/A)

3: with the new guided weapon skill to make sure you will hit.

I think the conditions themsevles (blind and dazed) are overpowerd, not the skill itself. If it's more like 50% miss for blind & 50% interrupt for daze, that might be better for everyone(wars, assasins, rangers & casters).

my nerf suggestion is just to make those conditions spammable, but greatly reduce the effects.

Malchiel
21-01-2006, 21:49
1: Resolve
2: Martyr
3: Glyph of concentration
4: Restore condition
5: Antidote signet (rang vs. blindness)

An assassin with QZ around is like living on borrowed time. They'll be defenseless very shortly.

However 70 armor and going to melee... they better have some very effective trick up their sleeves or they're toast. Their armor is less than that of a rang or war. They lack the range too. What's there to an assassin if they aren't actually deadly?

Zingeri
22-01-2006, 00:03
Temple Strike is overpowered for one reason: Twisted Fangs.

If an Assassin follows up a Temple Strike with Twisted Fangs, the Monk will need to remove two conditions before he can remove Blind and/or Daze. And that'll take too long.

Therefore, the best way to fix Temple Strike without making it completely unfair is to make it have either 15 Energy or make it a Dual Strike.

Malchiel
22-01-2006, 00:09
Temple Strike is overpowered for one reason: Twisted Fangs.

If an Assassin follows up a Temple Strike with Twisted Fangs, the Monk will need to remove two conditions before he can remove Blind and/or Daze. And that'll take too long.

Therefore, the best way to fix Temple Strike without making it completely unfair is to make it have either 15 Energy or make it a Dual Strike.

only if the monk uses mend ailment.

Restore condition is needed.

And I think it's only fair that you need an elite to counter an elite.

And who says that the monk has to remove it himself. Isn't this supposed to be a team game? Won't that be like saying every warrior needs to bring remove hex because they might get hexed? You've a team for a reason, use them.

Bravo
22-01-2006, 00:32
And I think it's only fair that you need an elite to counter an elite.


Signet of humility anyone?

Zingeri
22-01-2006, 00:42
only if the monk uses mend ailment.

Restore condition is needed.

And I think it's only fair that you need an elite to counter an elite.

And who says that the monk has to remove it himself. Isn't this supposed to be a team game? Won't that be like saying every warrior needs to bring remove hex because they might get hexed? You've a team for a reason, use them.I'm speaking in terms of 4v4: In Ascent/GvG, Martyr would be much better for condition management....

In 4v4, it would be very inefficient to bring Restore Condition.

And no sane Assassin would use it on anything other than a Monk.

Phoebus
22-01-2006, 01:16
I will say it again.
The skill:
- can be applied in less than 2 seconds
- doesn't need any special timing
- costs 10 energy
- recharges in 12 seconds,
- shutdowns physical attackers
- shutdowns casters
- is a general interrupt

That it can be interrupted or that miss/evade/block can screw an assassin won't make the skill any less overpowered.
A 15 energy, 2 second cast & 12 second recharge spell that steal 1000 hp isn't balanced because it can be interrupted or because the caster can be energy drained. Just an example of the flawed logic.

And daze is also a counter to condition removal.

NightKiller
22-01-2006, 02:49
this skill is defenatly unbalanced u completly shut down someone with it actually :embarassed:

Colretsun Andolin
22-01-2006, 02:56
I'm pretty sure they are also introducing a new ranger elite that causes daze without having to interupt a spell...Broad Head Arrow or something? It's in the CGW mag...that causes daze even easier since you can use it at any time instead of having to combo to it, even if it is your second attack.

Malchiel
22-01-2006, 03:58
A 15 energy, 2 second cast & 12 second recharge spell that steal 1000 hp isn't balanced because it can be interrupted or because the caster can be energy drained. Just an example of the flawed logic.

And here's a good example of the infamous strawman fallacy.

Good lesson in logic.

LlamaOfDoom
22-01-2006, 04:13
Temple Strike is in no way overpowered. Powerful, yes. It is a strong skill with lots of versatility that deserves to be used. But considering that it is elite, it is not too powerful. It's not like it can single-handedly win a battle, as some elites can. And considering that it has to follow a lead attack, it's usability is limited to the point of keeping it fair. After all, interrupts become much weaker when you can't use them at any time.

My final verdict on it is it's a good skill, and one that many assassins will be fitting into their skill bar, but it's not at the point of being overpowered.

FireballX
22-01-2006, 04:27
It's about as 'powered' as punishing shot. But the daze/blind length is only 7 seconds, and assassins can be pounded into mush fairly quickly.

In any case, standard generic warrior counters, and breaking the assassin attack chain, will put temple strike away.

itz nitro
22-01-2006, 04:43
Okay I changed my mind. To NO. Not overpowered. There's one elite, one elite that can counter this.

An eye for an eye, sounds fair.

How about restore condition? That elite was useless before, may be it'll finally see the light of day.


before? It has always been used by winning groups.

DeathDealer
22-01-2006, 06:30
As said before, bonder monk with restore conditions own at the moment considering so many fast attacking assassins flinging conditions left and right. Ive noticed that most of the monks changed to restore/bond for that reason. Although even with restore, Temple Strike is still a killer shut down. Usually they cripple me then temple strike me. Whoops, I spilled my bonds all over the floor:tongue: . It is pretty over powered, because if there isnt another monk you can pretty much take care of the monk yourself. I know I think in my mind "Oh poop" whenever I get hit with a temple strike. Im not complaining, considering we all have to lose at one point, but that skill is pretty darn powerful.

Kjentei
22-01-2006, 07:30
I tried Temple Strike on my Assassin. To be honest, I had 13 Dagger Mastery and it was 7 seconds, so I'm not sure about your statistics. Anyway, I don't think it's overpowered because 7 seconds, it's not really short, just short. If it was longer than 12, I'd think it would be. 7-10 seconds is shorter than lots of skill recharges, so it's not overpowered I reckon.

HonshuHigamori
22-01-2006, 08:06
Oh yes. It is most deliciously overpowered for team arenas where there's ordinarily only one monk.

I can't wait to unlock it. >::D

Phoebus
22-01-2006, 14:23
A 15 energy, 2 second cast & 12 second recharge spell that steal 1000 hp isn't balanced because it can be interrupted or because the caster can be energy drained. Just an example of the flawed logic.And here's a good example of the infamous strawman fallacy.

Good lesson in logic.
There is no strawman in there since I don't use it to prove Temple Strike is overpowered.
The only thing that argument proves is that a counter to a skill doesn't prevent a skill from being overpowered.

The only counter to Temple Strike are the same counters that would shutdown ANY assassin/warrior/ranger, the only difference is Temple Strike is several order of magnitude stronger than any other attack skill available to those classes.

khelgarath
22-01-2006, 22:09
It's great when there's only 1 monk as it's very hard for most monks to remove it by themselves. Crippled, Blinded, Dazed, Bleeding, Deep Wound and in some cases Poison. I guess it's not so much that Temple Strike is by itself overpowered but when it is used together with the rest of the dagger skills. You can't run and wait for daze to wear off because of cripple. And even throughout the shutdown period, there is massive degen + deepwound. Most mesmers just shutdown but assassins are able to shutdown and deal considerable damage at the same time.

Daze by a ranger can be countered by line of sight and rangers have a slow attack rate anyway but daze by a fast attacking melee character is a killer. Skull Crack is a pitiful elite compared to this. And even if u use guardian or weapon of warding to prevent the chain, the assassin will just wait for it to wear off before beginning the combo. And the combo executes pretty fast, it's not as if you can immediately throw up a guardian after getting hit by the lead attack. So it's not easy to break the chain either.

When there's more than 1 monk, it's just above average.

Cantos
22-01-2006, 22:23
The only counter to Temple Strike are the same counters that would shutdown ANY assassin/warrior/ranger, the only difference is Temple Strike is several order of magnitude stronger than any other attack skill available to those classes.Eviscerate was very clearly the "best" attack skill in the game prior to this weekend, and it is still a very potent attack, but it should probably be rated as number 2 now. Orders of magnitude? Pfft.

elsydeon
22-01-2006, 22:39
temple strike isnt overpowered

twisting fangs which follows it (both in the combo and in the skill purchase screen) is WAY overpowered

suddenly BOOM four conditions is way overpowered, and god forbid if this is used with fragility (return of frag spike); by itself temple strike isnt that uber, but with twisting fangs behind it, its too powerful to do anything against

i hope anet is listening, MAKE TWISTING FANGS ELITE, it is about as powerful as temple strike (two conditions) and when used with temple strike ensures that, EVEN WITH PURGE CONDITIONS (long recharge), you can keep a monk dazed almost constantly

QuixotesGhost
22-01-2006, 23:03
Note that Ritualists will be bringing Mend Body and Soul to the table in Guild Wars: Factions. A Non-Elite Condition Removal capable of pulling multiple conditions off a guy at once.

Phoebus
22-01-2006, 23:14
Note that Ritualists will be bringing Mend Body and Soul to the table in Guild Wars: Factions. A Non-Elite Condition Removal capable of pulling multiple conditions off a guy at once.
A dazed Ritualist can't cast Mend Body and Soul.
Actually, there's very few skills that can remove Dazed that can be casted by a Dazed character, hence why that condition is overpowered and why the current skill that daze are so rediculously expensive and hard to pull off.

Azgalon
22-01-2006, 23:20
A dazed Ritualist can't cast Mend Body and Soul.

A non-dazed one can.

GeneralGandorf
22-01-2006, 23:21
This is would I have been using, it is devastating IMO. Anything has been dropping within about 8 seconds, I even ran into a clan mates warrior today in random and he was amazed at how fast he died 1v1 against me.

Mark of Instability
Black Mantis Thrust
Temple Strike
Black Lotus Strike
Twisting Fangs
Falling Spiders
Death Blossom

I love it right now. :)

Phoebus
22-01-2006, 23:54
A non-dazed one can.
And another assassin can daze that other ritualist.

So what? You're going to design your group build around countering Temple Strike?

Blindness/Evade/Block won't work because there's several skill, including a weapon spell, that can counter those.
This leave you with plague touch, contemplation of purity, purge signet as 'reliable' counters. But plague touch on a monk/ritualist... right. And purge signet takes too long to cast, and energy denial the user.
Martyr and Purge Condition have less than 50% chance to go off, so that's 50% chance of losing the game. And Martyr can be shutdown by a mesmer after it's first use.
Tranquil Was Tanasen which must be used before the assassin is on you, and the ritualist needs to drop the ashes and lose the protection from interrupts to recast it every 21 seconds.
And Mantra of Resolve which will drain the user of energy in seconds.

So pretty much, Tranquil Was Tanasen is the only decent counters to mass daze.
CoP, Mantra of Resolve and Martyr will have a hard time working against the condition spam.

So you need to use those or face certain defeat to Temple Strike centered team builds.

Temple Strike is also only one skill, so for the team using it pulling the Temple Strike combo or not isn't a life or death scenario.

Rayne Frostbite
23-01-2006, 00:57
All I see here are monks *****ing about a skill that can decently kill them.... Well too bad - you got served... Btw, ask mesmers how much they like CoP... K tnx...

SoulsOfEternity
23-01-2006, 01:45
Originally Posted By Cyador
Black Mantis Thrust
Temple Strike
Twisting Fangs
Tiger's Fury
Siphon Strength
Storm Chaser
Resurrection Signet
Charm Animal

Aren't Temple Strike and Siphon Strength elites? Like both of em? Would mean you're missing a skill somewhere :tongue:

I dinnae think Temple Strike is overpowered, the only other melee dazed skill is skull , it's an elite and for 9 adrenaline? Need something else to daze those pesky monks and whatnot.

Vexed Arcanist
23-01-2006, 03:04
A dazed Ritualist can't cast Mend Body and Soul.
Actually, there's very few skills that can remove Dazed that can be casted by a Dazed character, hence why that condition is overpowered and why the current skill that daze are so rediculously expensive and hard to pull off.

I have been playing an A/N just for plague touch. I have been playing a Rit/N that uses SS and Plague Touch, she functions very well at killing Assassins 1v1 (warriors too). However requiring every build to bring Plague Touch is abit...much. Or plague signet even.

The skill does skim the line on overpowered but I think it does so only due to combos. I generally take the interrupt lead attack > temple strike and if they go to run Caltrops. This combo does not kill anyone, but it allows my team to do so easier.

The fact Temple Strike is multipurpose makes it the hallmark skill for this profession as it stands. Shut down most casters, shut down most melee.

Malchiel
23-01-2006, 03:17
All I see here are monks *****ing about a skill that can decently kill them.... Well too bad - you got served... Btw, ask mesmers how much they like CoP... K tnx...

Amen to this.

Monks or rits. And rits are *****ing how they can be killed, well serve them right.

Nobody could kill monks before in 1 on 1 situation (not in a reasonable amnt of time, before your team got served). At least now that's changing.

Here's an idea, assassin is pretty fragile, so instead of trying to soak that dmg up may be you should have your team kill them. If all goes well they should fall about the same time you do.

Vexed Arcanist
23-01-2006, 05:34
Amen to this.

Monks or rits. And rits are *****ing how they can be killed, well serve them right.

Nobody could kill monks before in 1 on 1 situation (not in a reasonable amnt of time, before your team got served). At least now that's changing.

Here's an idea, assassin is pretty fragile, so instead of trying to soak that dmg up may be you should have your team kill them. If all goes well they should fall about the same time you do.

Nothing changed, Boon Prot Monk will easily shut down an assassin. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Patccmoi
23-01-2006, 07:39
I tought it was fair earlier, but the more i played/faced the skill, the more i think it's overpowered.

I use it with Serpent's Quickness on R/A and my Temple is basically back before the daze wears off (usually the guy is dead anyway).

Comboed with Twisted Fangs (really powerful dual attack that is pretty similar to Eviscerate in power) it's just crazy.

I think Temple Strike would be fine if it blind/daze ONLY if it interrupts, like all other dazing abilities. Daze is an insanely strong ability.

And what people didn't start to do, which i can hardly believe, is the simple combo of Fevered Dream + Temple Strike (in team ofc). Fevered a target, and Temple Strike him, their full team is disabled (not to mention Bleeding and in DW if you just hit with a nice little Twisted after). And if the Temple guy is in SQ, he can reapply it the instant it's off. Have the Fevered Mesmer carry a Sig of Humility so he can lock Restore/Martyr, and if their team is even remotely packed, you have the easiest full team shutdown ever. And the Fevered Mesmer will ofc spread Fragility on as many people as possible so they take 100+ damage every time they receive the 4 conditions, and 100 when they wear off.

Temple imo needs to be changed because of combos like that. Don't just think of soloing monk in 4v4 people, that's not where the game balance is centered. Assassins have the potential to make Fevered Dreams absolutely insane because of how fast they can apply conditions. It's absolutely fine btw, Fevered needed something like that, but Daze is the 1 condition that just shouldn't be easily applied. It's way too powerful. Temple makes Skull Crack look like a freaking joke (kinda already was anyway, but now it's nearly insulting). At least require that you interrupt a skill in it, or switch it to dual attack so you must at least build up to there.

khelgarath
23-01-2006, 08:13
Nothing changed, Boon Prot Monk will easily shut down an assassin. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I think its the other way round. An assassin will shut down a boon prot monk. Mend Ailment is out which leaves Contemplation of Purity which forces you to recast divine boon. Besides the build that GeneralGandorf posted above can inflict 6 conditions so clearly CoP doesnt work well either. Furthermore, RoF sucks vs degen ( bleeding and poison). Don't forget the knockdown. Daze + Degen + Deepwound + Knockdown is not good.

I don't know what would qualify as overpowered but one thing is sure, assassin totally changes the way the game is played. Getting a monk in your team while the opponent has none isn't that big of advantage anymore. And teams has to be more responsible for the safety of the monk instead of just concentrating on offense.

I guess this will make those people who keep complaining on why they can't get a healer on their team happy. People also have to realise that they can't rely on the healer to do all the defensive work.

MasterNightfall
23-01-2006, 09:32
I think its the other way round. An assassin will shut down a boon prot monk. Mend Ailment is out which leaves Contemplation of Purity which forces you to recast divine boon. Besides the build that GeneralGandorf posted above can inflict 6 conditions so clearly CoP doesnt work well either. Furthermore, RoF sucks vs degen ( bleeding and poison). Don't forget the knockdown. Daze + Degen + Deepwound + Knockdown is not good.

You don't play a CoP boon prot monk much, do you? For one thing, they use both CoP AND Mend Ailment (Seeing as how CoP doesn't do anything to help your other teammates).

You use CoP to remove hexes or conditions that you need to remove right NOW. Hit it after you get dazed. Then watch as your Mend Ailment heals you for 320 points a pop, when the assassin stacks up the rest of them.

Also, as if the monk can't kite the assassin into the rest of his team, and out of the enemy healer range... Where the assassin will go down faster then a sack of potatoes.

Hell, if all else fails, the monk can just toss up a Guardian before the Assassin reaches him... Resulting in a 75% chance to evade either the lead attack, or the Temple Strike.

khelgarath
23-01-2006, 10:27
You don't play a CoP boon prot monk much, do you? For one thing, they use both CoP AND Mend Ailment (Seeing as how CoP doesn't do anything to help your other teammates).

You use CoP to remove hexes or conditions that you need to remove right NOW. Hit it after you get dazed. Then watch as your Mend Ailment heals you for 320 points a pop, when the assassin stacks up the rest of them.

Also, as if the monk can't kite the assassin into the rest of his team, and out of the enemy healer range... Where the assassin will go down faster then a sack of potatoes.

Hell, if all else fails, the monk can just toss up a Guardian before the Assassin reaches him... Resulting in a 75% chance to evade either the lead attack, or the Temple Strike.

You don't read much do you? Even if you cast Guardian, don't you think the Assassin can see that? It's right up there below the health bar. The guy will just freaking wait. Come on, not everyone is a button bashing noob.

Did I say that they don't use both mend ailment and CoP?? I said mend ailment is out since you can't mend yourself when you are dazed which only leaves CoP as the only way which is still not enough as there are 6 conditions.

Sure you can kite. But it's not easy considering, you're crippled and getting knocked down every dual attack. And while kiting, you are not healing, and the degen from poison and bleeding will take its toll. My arguments are not based on the assumption that the assassin is noob.

One of the reasons why boon prot is good is that they can spend minimal time casting and spend most of their time on the move. Having to keep recasting Divine boon and mend ailment really increases that time spent casting. As a result, the boon prot has to spend a significant amount of energy and time on himself rather than his teammates. Thus, the shutdown.

Rayne Frostbite
23-01-2006, 10:55
You don't read much do you? Even if you cast Guardian, don't you think the Assassin can see that? It's right up there below the health bar. The guy will just freaking wait. Come on, not everyone is a button bashing noob.

Did I say that they don't use both mend ailment and CoP?? I said mend ailment is out since you can't mend yourself when you are dazed which only leaves CoP as the only way which is still not enough as there are 6 conditions.

Sure you can kite. But it's not easy considering, you're crippled and getting knocked down every dual attack. And while kiting, you are not healing, and the degen from poison and bleeding will take its toll. My arguments are not based on the assumption that the assassin is noob.

One of the reasons why boon prot is good is that they can spend minimal time casting and spend most of their time on the move. Having to keep recasting Divine boon and mend ailment really increases that time spent casting. As a result, the boon prot has to spend a significant amount of energy and time on himself rather than his teammates. Thus, the shutdown.

Agreed 100%... Dazed is buried deep among other conditions...

ColdwaveKid
23-01-2006, 11:17
Well, given Temple is an elite, I assume ANET wanted to see dazed in real use, not just the joke condition that is too much of a hassle to even bother using. I would remove blind from it, and leave it as an anti-caster skill. I mean assassins are basically a counter to backline style monks anyway.

This to be is a great counter also to boon protters which seem overpowered now.

khelgarath
23-01-2006, 11:43
Well, given Temple is an elite, I assume ANET wanted to see dazed in real use, not just the joke condition that is too much of a hassle to even bother using. I would remove blind from it, and leave it as an anti-caster skill. I mean assassins are basically a counter to backline style monks anyway.

This to be is a great counter also to boon protters which seem overpowered now.

Yup, I agree. I also think it's because they don't want to make monks too superior than the ritualist in the healing department as the ritualist can still heal the team through spirits even though he is shutdown.

Anyway, I thought of replacing Offering of Blood/ Mantra of Recall with Melandru's Resilience and Mend Ailment with Draw Conditions so it might not be the end of the boon prot yet.

Phoebus
23-01-2006, 12:17
This to be is a great counter also to boon protters which seem overpowered now.
Ironic how boon protters are the only defensive build that has a decent chance of survival against temple strike.

Edit: And a decent chance of survival against Shroud of Silence.

Awcasper
23-01-2006, 13:03
And what people didn't start to do, which i can hardly believe, is the simple combo of Fevered Dream + Temple Strike (in team ofc). Fevered a target, and Temple Strike him, their full team is disabled (not to mention Bleeding and in DW if you just hit with a nice little Twisted after). And if the Temple guy is in SQ, he can reapply it the instant it's off. Have the Fevered Mesmer carry a Sig of Humility so he can lock Restore/Martyr, and if their team is even remotely packed, you have the easiest full team shutdown ever. And the Fevered Mesmer will ofc spread Fragility on as many people as possible so they take 100+ damage every time they receive the 4 conditions, and 100 when they wear off.

Temple imo needs to be changed because of combos like that. Don't just think of soloing monk in 4v4 people, that's not where the game balance is centered. Assassins have the potential to make Fevered Dreams absolutely insane because of how fast they can apply conditions. It's absolutely fine btw, Fevered needed something like that, but Daze is the 1 condition that just shouldn't be easily applied. It's way too powerful. Temple makes Skull Crack look like a freaking joke (kinda already was anyway, but now it's nearly insulting). At least require that you interrupt a skill in it, or switch it to dual attack so you must at least build up to there.

I also have been using Black Mantis - Temple Strike - Twisting Fangs w/ a bit of Frag during the weekend, and found it very strong.

The Temple Strike combo now makes a Fevered Dream/hex/condition spreading build very viable. Add in Fragility and it becomes deadly, indeed. Finally, something for my Mes to look forward to.^^

The assassin is like a hybrid class, it depends on melee dmg AND sufficent energy in order to fuction optimally. Pretty much like a Ranger w/o the range and more combo dependant. So either anti energy or anti melee would handicap them.

I would be fine w/ moving Temple Strike to Dual if there were another conditions skill for off-hand. Possily have a weakness/poison skill to fill the gap. If TS were changed to dual, wouldn't Dazed be easier to remove?

Seifer Black
23-01-2006, 13:27
I voted no.

There are too many ways to stop an assassin,
blind, guardian, aegis, distortion to name a few.
They can wait till any of these have worn off is not an answer, an assassin stood around waiting might as well drop a grenade down his own pants.
Temple Strike is good, but a good energy denial mesmer can do a better job of shutting down a monk.
In tombs and GvG, all it takes is a monk with martyr and one with restore condition, the assassin's conditions are then nigh on useless, but the energy denial mes rolls on.

Solgam
23-01-2006, 15:39
I voted "no" of course.
If the team is so great that they leave their monk behind and say "U do the protection and healing and we will keep pushing buttons for dmg" deserves to have that monk removed. Assasin is pretty vulnerable and it one jumps on back of enemy, far from his healer range.. dont he deserve te opportunity to possibly kill his target? Just imagine that assasin jumping to monk, ok he loaded lead attack and even temple strike succesfully. But then an interrupt occured.. sb cast guardian on monk.. sb galed assasin etc. And now whats the use of all other dagger skills he got in his skillbar? And now he's in the middle of enemies crying. Not to mention the amount of hp mend aligment heals on that monk. I really would like to hear all the prot monk saying would they rather that assasin condition spammer on them or ready for action hammer warrior. And yes, I know hammer warrior takes time to load adrenal skills. But assasin takes time to wait for opportunity - fair enough? And saying that combo recharges so quickly? Now that's great but... can u give me some mana for it? If u want to kill that monk in this attack u will most likely take about 4-5 dagger chain skills. How long does it take to restore your mana bar? And still that's an elite. F.e. Martyr not only counters it, it still do what is supposed to do, same with remove conditions (how much health will u gain with it as well?) but it got 2sec recharge. And still there are other elites like migraine - isn't that a little annoying to monks? I think assasin is a very powerfull character, but it requires nice playing skills and really bad enemies.

Parker Bsb
23-01-2006, 16:08
I think they should change it to temple strikes, make it a double attack, then it would be more balanced IMO. Sure assassins need something in their bag 'o tricks, but as others have mentioned compared to ANY other attack skill it is far above and beyond. Sure it'll still be better then evis, but not to such a degree (also twisting would not be able to be used in the same chain).

Please remember that anet tries to balance the game for 8v8 not 4v4 here guys. CoP is far from overpowered in GvG or HoH, I think TS will still be slightly overpowered in 8v8. -> Now teams are gonna have to bring Martyr or Restore (or both) to counter the assassins??? Seems like that's where the balance issue is.

to paraphraze what Anet has said. If we find 1 skill that is on skillbars all the time then it's time to start looking at balance issues with that skill.

Pyro Gl
23-01-2006, 20:54
this thread has become an "are assassins overpowered" thread. this thread is supposed to evaluate the skill Temple Strike.

From a statistical view, about 80% of the assassins i saw that were not premade carried this skill. it is clearly used above all of the other assassin elites. If this skill is not overpowered, then all of the rest of the elites are underpowered. Even if you think that assassin skills can be easily blocked to mess up an assassins chained skills, this skill is still the best of them (shroud of silence is up there too...). Don't forget there is still rigor mortis and a couple of skills that make you unblockable.

Dazed is almost impossible to remove from yourself, burried by blindess and quite likely bleeding and deep wound, CoP won't work through all those conditions, and in addition to wild blow, assassins get another stance ending skill to take care of stances that would save the said target. In 4vs4 i've never seen a monk survive this.

Removing it from someone else seems easy, but as we have seen in 8vs8 teams, keeping conditions off of people against trapper teams is hard enough, (signet of humility spam on protectionst) but when you throw dazed on the monks and toss in some epidemic, it's pretty much all over.

I do like that Anet is trying to get dazed back into the game, but it is too accessible now.

Patccmoi
23-01-2006, 21:19
Also, if Assassin use Unseen Fury, Temple Strike insures that all your next hits cannot be blocked or evaded unless you removed the blind (which is UNDER the daze) so even a Guardian can't help you once you get hit by that.

And if all monks in 8v8 are forced to suddenly carry CoP because it's the only possible way to survive an assassin on you, it's kinda sad. Because if you have 2 monks, they can easily have 2 assassins that can do a '3, 2, 1, Death's Charge!' and lock them both at the same time while killing them in a few seconds.

And for the 'it's easy, just have your team kill the assassins, they are weaklings'... Assassins also have skills like Recall, Shadow Step, etc, that can be used to make sure they'll teleport back in safety in a few seconds.

No skill should FORCE someone to carry something as specific as CoP to have any chance of survival.

Because please tell me what skill out of CoP can a monk use to save himself once hit by Temple Strike from an Assassin in Unseen Fury?

Not to mention in 8v8 situation, where you don't see a newb Assassin running in the middle of the field in a straight line towards you but where you're actually concentrated on healing your team when a Sin suddenly appears in your face through a teleport less where in less than 2 seconds the Temple is applied and less than 1.5 sec after it's buried under bleeding and deep wound, you have to react FAST to use your CoP in time. They can even use a ranged opener you might not really notice (like Dancing Daggers) and jump on you with a Temple-Twisted back to back.

It just seems crazy that the first real hit you deal on someone (say you use Dancing Daggers) is an unconditional daze. And the recharge isn't even long.

teh Monkeys
23-01-2006, 22:30
Also, if Assassin use Unseen Fury, Temple Strike insures that all your next hits cannot be blocked or evaded unless you removed the blind (which is UNDER the daze) so even a Guardian can't help you once you get hit by that.

Block the lead attack. no blind to begin with. gg.

I've seen dozens of my temple spikes fail horribly because of a good monk's reaction time.


And if all monks in 8v8 are forced to suddenly carry CoP because it's the only possible way to survive an assassin on you, it's kinda sad. Because if you have 2 monks, they can easily have 2 assassins that can do a '3, 2, 1, Death's Charge!' and lock them both at the same time while killing them in a few seconds.

Well, if assassins become popular, the oposing team will run guardian/aegis/wards if they're even half decent.


And for the 'it's easy, just have your team kill the assassins, they are weaklings'... Assassins also have skills like Recall, Shadow Step, etc, that can be used to make sure they'll teleport back in safety in a few seconds.

And assassins also have to stray from their healer's range in order to do their job properly, leaving them VERY vulnerable to attacks.

And even if they use their skills to escape, 90% of the time, they won't have finished their spike.


Because please tell me what skill out of CoP can a monk use to save himself once hit by Temple Strike from an Assassin in Unseen Fury?

An arena monk without CoP is a dead monk, regardless of assassins.

In organised pvp, there'll be more monk support to cover said monk's ***.


It just seems crazy that the first real hit you deal on someone (say you use Dancing Daggers) is an unconditional daze. And the recharge isn't even long.

Consider how utterly pathetic the rest of the assassins damage output is after the initial spike. Consider how horrible an assassins defenses and armor are. Then consider how easy it is to run a double aegis, wards and guardian.

Nano Person
24-01-2006, 00:41
The skill Temple Strike Elite skill is well... pointless. Aegis or some other blocking skill or Mend Ailment easily make the skill completely void. If anything.. this skill is way too underpowered. It's a waste if your going to use a good elite for something so retarded as this... and for those who used the 3000 faction and bought it... I LAUGH AT YO FACE!:laughing: :laughing:

Zingeri
24-01-2006, 00:53
The skill Temple Strike Elite skill is well... pointless. Aegis or some other blocking skill or Mend Ailment easily make the skill completely void. If anything.. this skill is way too underpowered. It's a waste if your going to use a good elite for something so retarded as this... and for those who used the 3000 faction and bought it... I LAUGH AT YO FACE!:laughing: :laughing:You may want to read the entire thread first.

Aegis is a situational spell is not used incredibly often. Mend Ailment won't help you clear Daze, since the Assassin will likely be able to use Twisting Fangs directly after, adding another 2 Conditions.

Again, Temple Strike is at the least overpowered in 4v4.

Colretsun Andolin
24-01-2006, 00:54
Block the lead attack. no blind to begin with. gg.

I've seen dozens of my temple spikes fail horribly because of a good monk's reaction time.

Well, if assassins become popular, the oposing team will run guardian/aegis/wards if they're even half decent.

I love posts like this. "Well, there team is going to be running 3x aegis and 2x ward against melee". Good thing we have a team too, and some counters for block/evade. Hey, one is even (as far as I know) unremovable, guided weapon.

Nano Person
24-01-2006, 01:01
You may want to read the entire thread first.

Aegis is a situational spell is not used incredibly often. Mend Ailment won't help you clear Daze, since the Assassin will likely be able to use Twisting Fangs directly after, adding another 2 Conditions.

Again, Temple Strike is at the least overpowered in 4v4.

Nope... it's still lame even on 4v4. Who cares what skill they use! I have a monk and we were facing 2 assassins with this skill... my team had 1 monk 1 warrior and 2 assassins... of course they jumped me really quick... and did the thing u said but I managed to get the skills all off and just sit there and ignore the assassins completely as they attempted to kill me while my allys killed them off. Assassins are too weak againest monks divine boon and orison and divine maxed combo... 1 healing fixed all the damage they both did. with 2 of the skills they used. Temple Strike is a waste. It wouldnt be a waste if there was more time on it being there like 10 or 12 seconds.

Vexed Arcanist
24-01-2006, 04:28
Nope... it's still lame even on 4v4. Who cares what skill they use! I have a monk and we were facing 2 assassins with this skill... my team had 1 monk 1 warrior and 2 assassins... of course they jumped me really quick... and did the thing u said but I managed to get the skills all off and just sit there and ignore the assassins completely as they attempted to kill me while my allys killed them off. Assassins are too weak againest monks divine boon and orison and divine maxed combo... 1 healing fixed all the damage they both did. with 2 of the skills they used. Temple Strike is a waste. It wouldnt be a waste if there was more time on it being there like 10 or 12 seconds.

Unless you are playing a prot monk with RoF or carrying Divine Intervention you can not consistently handle this skill when combined with Fangs.

Since the more experienced monks will play Boon Prot in CA this skill will not dominate them, it can be overwhelming vs most caster builds when combined with Fangs.

In Team 4v4 a Boon Prot monk and 1 Resolve trapper will eat any team leaning heavy on Assassins.

Vergil
24-01-2006, 04:49
besides think about it this way, you need to execute a lead attack in order to follow up with temple strike, if the monk is smart enough to kite or has guardian or something on it, it'll do great, heck if its only a sin vs a monk, pacifism works wonders =D

lord of Bones
24-01-2006, 08:34
I think Temple Strike is overpowered, but I don't think that the skill is inherently bad in itself. If you look at other skills which are heavy shutdowns of foes, like blackout, or the similar sin elite Shroud of Silence, there is a balance to the power of the skill. I think adding balance to the skill would improve it. Something like changing the skill to:

"If this attack hits, your target is interupted, blinded, and dazed for 1-9 seconds and all of your attack skills are disabled for 9-5 seconds"

As it has been stated, its still easy to remove blind and dazed, especially if other team members carry overlapping removals. And of course, there is the fact that you actually have to HIT the person with temple strike, which is a feat in itself!

(I didn't get a chance to read all the responses yet, so pardon if this is a restatement of an earlier idea)

...And vexed: Only stupid assassins. One of the best combos for a temple sin I ran over the weekend was Mantis Sting, Temple Strike, Jagged Strike, Wild Strike, Expose Defenses, and rush or sprint on an A/W... Stance canceling and dodge/evade canceling ftw =P One sin can even just sit back and expose defenses on the monk, or wild strike the trapper, and just let other people finish them off. And the fast recharging Mantis, Jagged, and Wild Strikes provide a lot of dps.

The solution I used to get around lead attacks not connecting was to bring expose defenses, and/or 2 Lead attacks. Which meant I wasn't using any dual attacks, but honestly, I didn't even like most of the dual attacks.

lord of Bones
24-01-2006, 09:18
In response to an above comment, I COMPLETELY agree that the other sin elite attacks were lackluster at best. Mobius strike was ok, but nothing spectacular. I found about 1/3 to 1/2 of the sin skills to be Worthy of use. I was very disapointed that there were no Elite Lead Attacks. I was hoping/expecting for an elite of the type of

"Acme elite attack name: This attack cannot be blocked or evaded. 10 e, 8-10 sec recharge" ...or something like that.

I think that would be very common on sin skill bars, as the ability to draw together combos hinges so much on getting a lead attack in.


Flashing Blades in the dagger line was a nice elite for improving a sin's endurance remarkably vs physical damagers.

On a side note, Way of the Fox (next attack cannot miss) was mentioned above. I didn't actually get a chance to test the skill out, but the skill description says "your next attack cannot miss"... It says nothing about being dodged or evaded. Maybe someone who tested the skill can speak up, but I basically took it as a blind bypass, not a bypass of all defenses completely.

And on anoooother note, people are completely ignoring the effect of ritualists on the game nowadays. Not only as primary healers, but as secondaries to monk primaries. There are several skills which ritualists bring to the game now which change.. well basically everything. I was testing out a ritualist over the weekend with the held item "Resilient was Xiko" and I can tell you I just LAUGHED at temple strike Sins. For each condition or hex you recieve, you gain +2 regeneration. Its a one second 5 energy cast, with a long duration compared to its recast (double duration of recast at 12ish skill level). And it PWZWNS condition and hex stacks. Moreover, there are other held items which would help the ritualist just as much. A creatable item that raises your maximum life by like 100-200, and heals you that much when dropped... drop it halfway through the sin attack and just outlast the daze.

There are many, many counters to temple strike out there (simply crippling/snaring the sin and letting the monk kite him works very well) which depend on teamwork. None of these classes are ultimately meant to be balanced in 1vs1 situations, because this is a team game.

roguebanshee
24-01-2006, 16:36
"Acme elite attack name: This attack cannot be blocked or evaded. 10 e, 8-10 sec recharge" ...or something like that.
Iron Palm does almost what you're asking for:
Description: Target touched foe suffers 5-41 damage. Iron Palm may be used as a lead attack.
Energy Cost: 5
Activation Time: 3/4ths of a Second.
Recharge Time: 20 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Deadly Arts. Increases damage dealt.
Skill Type: Skill.

Can't evade/block a "Skill", it even ignores Blindness. And it's not an elite. Longer recharge than you're hoping for, but it should work anyway.

MasterNightfall
24-01-2006, 17:04
this thread has become an "are assassins overpowered" thread. this thread is supposed to evaluate the skill Temple Strike.

From a statistical view, about 80% of the assassins i saw that were not premade carried this skill.

From a statistical view, about 80% of the W/Mos that I saw in the early beta weekends carried Healing Hands.

HEALING HANDS IS OVERPOWERED NERF NERF NERF


Edit: Can you believe how much people whined about Healing Hands? I'm sure you don't - either that, or it never occured to you. Now that I've recalled it, it gets my blood boiling thinking about it.

It makes me angry. Very angry. I feel like breaking things when I think back to the complete and utter stupidity that surrounded Healing Hands W/Mos.

They were "Overpowered, Unkillable, Imbalanced, Noob, Unkillable, and did I mention Overpowered?"


Give the game some time to mature already, before making statements about which skills are popular.


Don't forget there is still rigor mortis and a couple of skills that make you unblockable.

Which is the counter to the counter which can be countered with hex removal/and/or a pre-emptive announcement over TS that "I HAVE RIGOR ON ME"



Dazed is almost impossible to remove from yourself, burried by blindess and quite likely bleeding and deep wound, CoP won't work through all those conditions, and in addition to wild blow, assassins get another stance ending skill to take care of stances that would save the said target. In 4vs4 i've never seen a monk survive this.

Then maybe you should *Gasp* consider using Mantra of Recall? Seems to remove two conditions, coupled with Divine Boon, when CoPed.

About time that everyone and their brother took a step away from OOB.



Removing it from someone else seems easy, but as we have seen in 8vs8 teams, keeping conditions off of people against trapper teams is hard enough, (signet of humility spam on protectionst) but when you throw dazed on the monks and toss in some epidemic, it's pretty much all over.

You mean people will actually use Epidemic?

If so, sign me up.

Unfortunately for you, Epidemic has a ridicilously small AoE, high mana cost, and can be countered by Not Staying In A Clump.


I do like that Anet is trying to get dazed back into the game, but it is too accessible now.

Let's see...

Melee ranged, 75% chance to fail against a guardianed/aegised target, elite, on a 'fragile' character.

Certainly far better then what we do have, but hardly overkill.

Sun is in us
24-01-2006, 18:02
I used Shroud of Silence as my elite.....it has 9 seconds (well at my skill point allocation) of blackout....no daze....but entire spell casting gone......seems like you would target this instead of Temple Strike....

After many people dismissing the Assasin as not very dangerous (at least I have gotten that impression)....I found that that I felt effective with the build I composed. Although the bug in Return bothered me.

I "Assinated" several casters through the use of Shadow Step, Shroud of Silence....then initiating my attack. I was very surprised that it gave me the feel of Assination (quick in, high damage attacks, kill, then out), and plays very different from a warrior.

Having the ability to "plan" where I want to be in 15 seconds I found very helpful. I built myself as a Caster/Monk Assasin, ran in, got close to the opposing monk, it was nice if they were stationary and/or liked to kite in circle, as I would hit shadow step right beside them, then shroud, then attack chain (which hurt them or killed them sometimes) then flee.......only to teleport right back in their face in 10 seconds.

Good Times.

Yazoo
24-01-2006, 19:24
Its not overpowered
actually there are going to be lots of skills that will gain use against condition
Melandru Resilence anyone?..
I think its good to use some skills now that were uncommon to use in the past.

succumb
24-01-2006, 20:02
I am not sure if someone mentioned this as this is quite a large thread but the main reason this skill is soo powerful is that Dazed is Covered by blind. When playing a boon prot in Ca if i were to get temple strike it would take 2 condition removals to remove daze. Mend condtion gets interupted as it becomes over 1 second cast and hittin contemplation doenst work as you would only remove the blind condtion. If this skill were changed so that daze covers blind then IMO this skill would be balanced

MasterNightfall
24-01-2006, 22:58
I am not sure if someone mentioned this as this is quite a large thread but the main reason this skill is soo powerful is that Dazed is Covered by blind. When playing a boon prot in Ca if i were to get temple strike it would take 2 condition removals to remove daze. Mend condtion gets interupted as it becomes over 1 second cast and hittin contemplation doenst work as you would only remove the blind condtion. If this skill were changed so that daze covers blind then IMO this skill would be balanced

Stop using Offering of Blood, and start using Mantra of Recovery.

Zero RoGuE
24-01-2006, 23:15
no, I dont think so... what you must realize is most characters come are heavy on spells or heavy on skills (ussaly not both). For example an elementalist woul really be annoyed by the dazed but will just laugh off the blindness. While rangers will curse you for blinding them and wonder why you dazed them.

Malchiel
25-01-2006, 15:55
This skill does NOT need a nerf. There're so many counter to it already.

1) Ele: (For you eles, if you hit the sins first, they're toast. Especially if specced in air)
Blinding Flash
Glimmering Mark
Ward vs. Melee (75% chance to evade that TS)
Magnetic Aura
Blurred Vision (75% chance to evade TS)
Mist Form
Swirling Aura
Ward against Foe (And learn to kite)
Any other water hex (And learn to kite)

2) Necro: (Bring plague touch and the joke is on them. I mean seriously!)
Plague Touch

3) Mesmer: (This is a bit tough, but not impossible)
Distortion
Clumsiness (the lead attack)
Spirit of failure
Signet of midnight
Ineptitude
Resolve

4) Rits: dunno much aboutt them, but I know if you bring the ash you can't be interrupted. Afterwards you can remove the cond easily.

5) Wars: (The dumbest proff in GW, there's no helping you unless you got a monk behind you, so yeah tough luck. But if you play wars you should get used to that whenever fighting an air/earth eles or any decent necs/ mesmers or rangers or monks (pretty much any class in GW eats wars))

6) Rangers:
Antidote signet
Melandru's resilience
Crippling Shot (kiting)
Traps (kiting)
Any of your stances will help you too





I mean honestly if you can't think of a way to counter TS ... sigh... You probably haven't been playing very long....

And for once I agree with NightFall... let's not have another *Healing Hands* shall we. Everybody was clamoring this makes warrior unkillable. What a joke! Healing hands is a total crap now. Even the non-elite shielding hands is 10X better. Does the same thing, and more as it prevents non-attack dmg from doing full dmg.

As for the monk who got screwed by the assassin... well then we'd just be closer to this thing called "balance". I mean these monks kept talking about 4v4, any other profession can attest that monks in 4v4 is far from balanced. So now monks feel what any other class feels when fighting against them in 4v4.

1) An ele facing a ranger would feel more than a little trepidation, getting all those interrupt and not doing a thing.
2) A war fighting an ele, can say good bye to doing anything worthwhile. Might as well use the /sit emote

Bottom line is for every class there's a class that *directly* counters it. This wasn't the case for monks in the past. And why it should stay that way is anybody's guess.

ihihih
26-01-2006, 03:32
just out of curiosity, which one is faster:

1) apply poison+dagger layering
or
2) Plague Touch

Healer Of Epsilon
26-01-2006, 08:40
Because please tell me what skill out of CoP can a monk use to save himself once hit by Temple Strike from an Assassin in Unseen Fury?

8v8 solution*

Make an N/Mo using draw conditions and plague signet. Draw conditions is almost uninteruptable and if you happen to draw dazed onto yourself, Plague Signet ftw. Have a second character bring some backup condition removal, such as mend conditions, which adds in some extra healing.

4v4 solution*

Imo, dazed is not supposed to be easily self removed, though it is still possible even for monks. As already mentioned, Mantra of Recall+boon+cop will remove the blind and daze, so it's just a matter of timing. Even when dazed, it is still possible to get off your 1/4 second spells (1/2 second while dazed), again being just a matter of timing and knowing the battle.

During the PvP event Temple Strike assassins weren't much of a threat to my monk, so I don't view the skill as overpowered to the game. However, when compared to other skills, in particular, other elites such as Skull Crack, it is easy to see how there are people who regard it as overpowered. Like every skill it has it's weaknesses, with the problem being the potential the skill has as an effective melee/caster shutdown in one skill. Though this doesn't really bother me.

And who knows what plethora of new skills Chapter 2 will bring. It is still too early to be judging skills ;D

*These are merely a solution, not the solution.

Rayne Frostbite
26-01-2006, 09:58
Whats this about Shroud of Silence being a good elite? If I remember correctly, it does exactly the same thing (or similar) to Blackout, yet worser and its an ELITE skill... I think it had worser recharge, same energy cost, it was blocking SPELLS only and it was blocking your OWN skills for much longer.. Explain?

GitakaRen
26-01-2006, 10:55
^^ They block out you own SPELLS not skills, so you can continue using your attack skills while the caster/monk can't use any of their SPELLS, which is usually more than 3/4 their skill bar.

Phoebus
26-01-2006, 15:41
Blah blah
Answer to your whole post: Read the thread before you post.

1. Guided Weapons + Temple Strike will destroy monst of your listed builds.
2. It's not because a skill has possible counters that it isn't overpowered.
What matters is how hard the skill is to counter versus how powerful it is if it isn't countered.
Temple Strike is very hard to counter (for an attack), and devastating if it hits, thus, the skill is overpowered.

And needing to change your team build to not get obliterated by a single new skill, well, that speaks for itself.

Malchiel
26-01-2006, 19:54
Answer to your whole post: Read the thread before you post.

1. Guided Weapons + Temple Strike will destroy monst of your listed builds.
2. It's not because a skill has possible counters that it isn't overpowered.
What matters is how hard the skill is to counter versus how powerful it is if it isn't countered.
Temple Strike is very hard to counter (for an attack), and devastating if it hits, thus, the skill is overpowered.

And needing to change your team build to not get obliterated by a single new skill, well, that speaks for itself.

What a joke. What team build needs to be changed, exactly?

In 8 v 8 someone always carries draw condition/restore/martyr and the like. And now they need carry draw condition/restore/martyr. If you had to change your "team" build because of this one skill, you must have had a poor team build to begin with. Are you sure you're talking about team buid here, or just your selfish self?

1/2 of the skills I listed is countered with guided weapon. Big deal! there's still half of them for you to tinker with. And guess what those skill list are only 3/4 of counters known. Guided weapon kill any evade / stances anyways with or without temple strike. On a side note, not everyone is going to be A/Rit just to bring guided weapon. Just like not everyone is going to be a war/rang or war/ele, even if they work very well in PvP.

Temple strike is very hard to counter for an attack? Only if you think that final Galrath slash is very hard to counter for an attack. Tell me how is it that TS is harder to counter than a regular sword swing? In fact I have to say TS is easier to counter because you foil either the lead attack or TS itself.

Admittably TS is much more devastating than say Galrath... but it's an elite, on a melee class with caster's armor. You'd think that the class deserves to be much more devasting, right? On a side note, it's only slightly more powerful than eviscerate, which's also an elite, on a class with 2x the armor.

Parker Bsb
26-01-2006, 20:10
It seems that we are still debating the assassin class as a whole being over/under powered.

Let's look at this from a different way to see if we can keep the conversation from turning into a flame-fest.

Is eviscerate overpowered? Obvious awnser - No but it's one of the best warrior elites out there.

Would eviscerate be overpowered if it was deep wound AND cripple? IMO yes no question.

By comparison is TS overpowered? Yes TS vs Eviscerate, NO question TS is FAR superiour, you can argue that you just need to break the chain to avoid the damage... well it takes 8 hits (theoretically) BEFORE you can use eviscerate, and 2 before you can use TS...

SO in conclusion:

Evis - 1 condition, 8 hits to charge, damage increase
TS - 2 conditions, 2 hits to charge, no damage increase

Well I'm going to leave the floor open, I think it's pretty evident tho by looking at the facts .

Malchiel
26-01-2006, 20:21
It seems that we are still debating the assassin class as a whole being over/under powered.

Let's look at this from a different way to see if we can keep the conversation from turning into a flame-fest.

Is eviscerate overpowered? Obvious awnser - No but it's one of the best warrior elites out there.

Would eviscerate be overpowered if it was deep wound AND cripple? IMO yes no question.

By comparison is TS overpowered? Yes TS vs Eviscerate, NO question TS is FAR superiour, you can argue that you just need to break the chain to avoid the damage... well it takes 8 hits (theoretically) BEFORE you can use eviscerate, and 2 before you can use TS...

SO in conclusion:

Evis - 1 condition, 8 hits to charge, damage increase
TS - 2 conditions, 2 hits to charge, no damage increase

Well I'm going to leave the floor open, I think it's pretty evident tho by looking at the facts .

Good point. You miss out on how fast Evisc charge up though.

With Tiger's Fury, Evisc charge up in about 7 seconds. With .89 swing rate.

How long does it take for TS to charge up?

Evis - 1 condition, 7 second recharge
TS - 2 conditions, 12 seconds recharge

Doesn't sound that unfair to me.

And what warrior is out there w/o an IAS such as TF, BR, Flurry or Frenzy? May be all the lousy ones.

Are there ways to make TS charge up faster? Sure, like Serpent's Q. But SQ has a long cool down time, and if you want to bring something with *long cool down time, so can wars*

Evis - 1 condition, 4 seconds recharge with IAS + FGJ
TS - 2 condition, 8 seconds recharge with SQ

MaximumSquid
26-01-2006, 22:29
I voted overpowered

It's not as overpowered as some people claim when you compare it to the 2 other skills that cause daze.

yes both of them are conditional (if foe is doing this then you get. . .), but the duration is much MUCH longer.

Using templestrike on a warrior won't do much. . . yeah your blind, but the time your blind for is really minimal.

What i really think needs to happen is to have skull crack get a buff, and have concussion shot get set back to 15 energy with a smaller duration.

MaximumSquid
26-01-2006, 22:32
By comparison is TS overpowered? Yes TS vs Eviscerate, NO question TS is FAR superiour, you can argue that you just need to break the chain to avoid the damage... well it takes 8 hits (theoretically) BEFORE you can use eviscerate, and 2 before you can use TS... I think we're going to see a lot more use of the tactics tree once GW gets rolling into the expasion.

Parker Bsb
26-01-2006, 23:05
Good point. You miss out on how fast Evisc charge up though.
With Tiger's Fury, Evisc charge up in about 7 seconds. With .89 swing rate.
How long does it take for TS to charge up?
Evis - 1 condition, 7 second recharge
TS - 2 conditions, 12 seconds recharge
Doesn't sound that unfair to me...

Ok so Starting attack (it's not fair to assume the war has Tigers and the assassin doesn't... and from what I've seen sai have the same attack speed as swords).
to 1st evis: 7seconds, 2nd evis is at 14 seconds
1st TS @ 1.56 seconds, 2nd at 13.56.

Granted after 14 seconds evis is much quicker recharging... but I still think TS is MUCH more powerful than Evis which was called overpowered months ago.




I think we're going to see a lot more use of the tactics tree once GW gets rolling into the expasion.

Agreed.

lord of Bones
27-01-2006, 18:42
I don't really agree with the 2 conditions from temple strike being such an increase over the 1 condition of Eviscerate. The two conditions that Temple Strike imparts are only very, very rarely going to both matter against a character. You are basically inflicting one condition + a cover condition, with temple strike (and no extra damage, remember that TS offers 2 conditions, but no damage boost). On the other hand, Eviscerate gives you 1 condition + a big damage spike.

When you look at what each skill does, Eviscerate actually is Superior because it serves two functions: It inflicts a condition, and it powers your DPS. Temple Strike serves only one function: limited character shut down. Remember, TS is not a blackout. It is possible to remove the conditions, or even cast/attack through them if you play smart and have the right skills.

TS is at best a versatile shutdown/inhibitor skill, at worst a mild annoyance. Evisc is always a high dps skill, with the ability to very quickly kill targets because of the effect of deep wound.

I agree that TS can be powerful, and that it even could use a bit more balance (the daggers equivalent of Shroud of Silence? Disables non-spell skills for x seconds after use?) but to call it overpowered is going too far, I think.

Sun is in us
27-01-2006, 22:15
Whats this about Shroud of Silence being a good elite? If I remember correctly, it does exactly the same thing (or similar) to Blackout, yet worser and its an ELITE skill... I think it had worser recharge, same energy cost, it was blocking SPELLS only and it was blocking your OWN skills for much longer.. Explain?


Worse?

I was not playing a Mes. I was playing an Assasin/W. It has 33%-45% more shut down time (max for blackout is 6), only shuts down (on the initiating Char) SPELLS for 15 seconds (so your killing SKILLS go on). So it is a nice Hex to start your attack chain (as you get bonus damage to hexed opponents on some skills).

I didn't say it was UBER at all, but for the build I was attempting (with limited unlocks obviously, I had to buy Shroud to try it), a Caster-Killer, it was fun to try out.

Just making a comparision to TS. Until I see "Dazed" take on real meaning in PVP (its a condition, removed in a sec), I just mentioned that skills that actually shutdown were usually more effective.

lord of Bones
28-01-2006, 00:29
well, shroud of silence is a hex... and removable =P But I agree. Its hard to call a skill like TS really overpowered, when there is so much condition removal out there, or dodge/evasion/blind causing skills out there which can stop incoming attacks and make daze interupting less powerful.


On shroud, I think Shroud of silence could easily have a shorter recast timer. The overall theme of the assassin class from what I've seen is fast effect, quick recharge, relatively short duration effects and hexes, lending themselves to spikes and attack/retreat. Shroud seems more along the lines of a mesmer dom skill in flavor in its current set up, a relatively long recast on a strong shut down hex.

TheArrow
28-01-2006, 08:44
When you look at just the skill itself, it is a bit overpowered. The duration for Dazed shouldn't be 8 seconds at the top end. It should be lower, around 6 or so, and Dazed should be on top, not the Blind. However, when you consider all the ways you can shutdown an Assassin; any evasion stance, any skill that gives you a chance to block/evade, kiting for 5 seconds so the lead attack combo drops, any condition removal, then no it's not.

Parker Bsb
28-01-2006, 13:21
When you look at just the skill itself, it is a bit overpowered. The duration for Dazed shouldn't be 8 seconds at the top end. It should be lower, around 6 or so, and Dazed should be on top, not the Blind. However, when you consider all the ways you can shutdown an Assassin; any evasion stance, any skill that gives you a chance to block/evade, kiting for 5 seconds so the lead attack combo drops, any condition removal, then no it's not.

See the point is not that assassins are overpowered which is exactly what you are discussing... Hey the assassin brought rigor mortis, now most of your shutdown skills are useless. We aren't talking about how easy it is to "shut"down a assassin, we are talking about ONE SKILL and weather it is balanced (or in line) with other skills that are in the game.

Granted I agree that assassins need a boost because they are a little on the weak side, but giving them a overpowered skill is not the right way to go about that

CHIPS
29-01-2006, 02:39
To see if this skill is overpowered, let's compare this with simlar skills.


Skull Crack (availability)
Description: If this attack hits while target foe is casting a spell, that foe is dazed for 15 seconds. This is an elite skill.
Energy Cost: None.
Activation Time: None.
Recharge Time: 10 Adrenaline.
Linked Attribute: None.
Skill Type: Melee Attack.



Concussion Shot (availability)
Description: If Concussion Shot hits while target foe is casting a spell, the spell is interrupted and your target is dazed for 5-17 seconds. This attack deals only 1-13 damage.
Energy Cost: 25
Activation Time: 1/2 of a Second.
Recharge Time: 10 Seconds.
Linked Attribute Marksmanship. Increases duration and damage dealt.
Skill Type: Bow Attack.



Temple Strike (availability)
Description: Must follow a lead attack. If this attack hits, target foe is interrupted, Dazed and Blinded for 1-7 second(s). This is an elite skill.
Energy Cost: 10
Activation Time: None.
Recharge Time: 12 Seconds.
Linked Attribute: Dagger Mastery. Increases Blind and Dazed duration.
Skill Type: Off-Hand Attack.


Effect Length: Ranger>Warrior>Assasin
Energy Cost: Warrior>Assasin>Ranger
Activation Time: Ranger>Assasin=Warrior
Recharge Time: Ranger>Assasin>Warrior (10 adrenline, depends)
Attribute: Warrior>Assasin=Ranger
Easiness of Daze: Assasin>Ranger>Warrior
Elite?: Ranger>Assasin=Warrior

Let's first rank the skills by number. I give a score of 10 for the best, 9 for the second best, and 8 for the last. I give a +1 or -1 score to those parts that I feel is A LOT better, and A LOT worst, then the rest.

Ranger: 10+8-1+10+10+9+9+10=65 out of 70
Warrior: 9+10+1+9+8+10+8-1+9=63 out of 70
Assasin: 8-1+9+9+9+9+10+1+9=63 out of 70

As you can see, all 3 skills are pretty close. Every skill have strenght and weakness.

Warrior 's have no attribute requirement and no energy requirement. Its daze last for a long time. But it might have a long recharge time, and it is very hard to daze a person.

Ranger 's have very high energy requirement. But it is easier to daze an enemy than warriors', and it last very long.

Assasin 's can daze an enemy no matter what. But its daze does not last for too long.

So each skill have its ups and downs. It is hard to say that Temple Strike is overpowered.

Sai
29-01-2006, 02:53
To see if this skill is overpowered, let's compare this with simlar skills.







Effect Length: Ranger>Warrior>Assasin
Energy Cost: Warrior>Assasin>Ranger
Activation Time: Ranger>Assasin=Warrior
Recharge Time: Ranger>Assasin>Warrior (10 adrenline, depends)
Attribute: Warrior>Assasin=Ranger
Easiness of Daze: Assasin>Ranger>Warrior
Elite?: Ranger>Assasin=Warrior

Let's first rank the skills by number. I give a score of 10 for the best, 9 for the second best, and 8 for the last. I give a +1 or -1 score to those parts that I feel is A LOT better, and A LOT worst, then the rest.

Ranger: 10+8-1+10+10+9+9+10=65 out of 70
Warrior: 9+10+1+9+8+10+8-1+9=63 out of 70
Assasin: 8-1+9+9+9+9+10+1+9=63 out of 70

As you can see, all 3 skills are pretty close. Every skill have strenght and weakness.

Warrior 's have no attribute requirement and no energy requirement. Its daze last for a long time. But it might have a long recharge time, and it is very hard to daze a person.

Ranger 's have very high energy requirement. But it is easier to daze an enemy than warriors', and it last very long.

Assasin 's can daze an enemy no matter what. But its daze does not last for too long.

So each skill have its ups and downs. It is hard to say that Temple Strike is overpowered.

concussion shot costs 25 energy
skull crack requires 9 adrenaline
temple strike dazes + blinds with no need to time an interupt.

lets face it, purely for its intended use temple strike is better...far better.

lord of Bones
29-01-2006, 06:41
Only a fool would use concussion shot on a non-primary ranger =P So you can pretty much adjust that 25 energy cost down to around 15 energy.

And you need to look at overlap time, as well, if you are comparing these skills. Skullcrack and Concussion shot are each ~15 second dazes.

Point: you can build 10 adrenaline twice in 15 seconds, so someone bringing skullcrack could theoretically keep 1 character permadazed. If there were no removal skills employed.

Concussion shot dazes for 17 seconds at 12 bowskill, 20 seconds at 15 bowskill. It has a recharge of 10 seconds. So someone with the available energy and good reflexes could keep TWO people permadazed, and Concussion Shot isn't even an elite!

At best, temple strike keeps you dazed 2/3 of the time. So we are looking at far less blanket coverage of dazed here with temple strike.

And while Concussion shot and Skullcrack both require an event to occur before they take effect (you need to interupt a spell with them) Temple Strike also requires an event before it can be used, it must follow a lead attack. That lead attack needs to hit, and temple strike needs to follow it within... 5 seconds? 10 seconds? before that lead attack counter expires. Which can be helluva harder than it sounds when trying to get it in on kiting, running, dodging characters.

TheArrow
29-01-2006, 06:59
See the point is not that assassins are overpowered which is exactly what you are discussing... Hey the assassin brought rigor mortis, now most of your shutdown skills are useless. We aren't talking about how easy it is to "shut"down a assassin, we are talking about ONE SKILL and weather it is balanced (or in line) with other skills that are in the game.

You did a great job of completely missing my point. I don't know how, it was perfectly clear. I only stated it as the first thing I said. Another thing besides, how is me listing different ways of defeating an assassin arguing that they are overpowered? I listed out several ways of defeating them and not once did I mention that they are overpowered.

Pyro Gl
29-01-2006, 17:55
From a statistical view, about 80% of the W/Mos that I saw in the early beta weekends carried Healing Hands.

HEALING HANDS IS OVERPOWERED NERF NERF NERF

I did say "not premade." Of course the premades will be popular on betas, but temple strike is not a premade skill. Your comparing two unlike things which is a fallacy in itself. If every assassin decided to take temple strike as an elite, (from all of the skills, not just the premades) i would consider that enough to say it is overpowered.




Edit: Can you believe how much people whined about Healing Hands? I'm sure you don't - either that, or it never occured to you. Now that I've recalled it, it gets my blood boiling thinking about it.

It makes me angry. Very angry. I feel like breaking things when I think back to the complete and utter stupidity that surrounded Healing Hands W/Mos.

They were "Overpowered, Unkillable, Imbalanced, Noob, Unkillable, and did I mention Overpowered?"


Give the game some time to mature already, before making statements about which skills are popular.

The very point of this thread is to analyse the balance issues of the skill "Temple Strike." Popularity of skills beyond the premade builds is simply a reflection of the skills strength.




Which is the counter to the counter which can be countered with hex removal/and/or a pre-emptive announcement over TS that "I HAVE RIGOR ON ME"



I'm sorry, but by the time rigor is actually removed, you will be dazed. Unless your team can see it being casted and KNOWS who it will be on, its basically impossible. Its this very reason that spike builds can be so successful. Also don't forget unseen fury, lasts 30/45 seconds and if your target is blinded you are unblockable. Wards? Aegis? Guardian? it doens't matter anymore, one blinding flash and the attacks pile on.

But none of this actually matters, we are discussing whether temple strike is overpowered. If you compare it to the other dazing skills, well lets just say its not easy to daze a boon protter with skull crack or concussion shot. You have to hit them at exactly the precise moment. temple strike doesn't require an interrupt, and it even covers it with a blind, making it a decent attack against non casters. I mean seriously, why would you take skull crack for your elite if you could take temple strike? IMO, there is no reason.




Then maybe you should *Gasp* consider using Mantra of Recall? Seems to remove two conditions, coupled with Divine Boon, when CoPed.

About time that everyone and their brother took a step away from OOB.



Oh, so that means that Temple strike can be countered if every monk brings mantra of recall, divine boon, and CoP. There goes all the monk elites...

Also lets look at the recharges:
Temple Strike: 12 seconds
Mantra of Recall: 20 seconds
I really don't think its possible for a lone monk to survive against an assassin.




You mean people will actually use Epidemic?

If so, sign me up.

Unfortunately for you, Epidemic has a ridicilously small AoE, high mana cost, and can be countered by Not Staying In A Clump.



Alright, so your going to fit 8 ppl in a ward and your going to NOT clump up...




Let's see...

Melee ranged, 75% chance to fail against a guardianed/aegised target, elite, on a 'fragile' character.

Certainly far better then what we do have, but hardly overkill.

Unseen Fury + Blind = Guaranteed daze hit


I may be incorrect, but I think that Temple Strike is a bit stronger than other comparative elites. If A-Net doesn't nerf Temple strike then they should buff other skills. I'm sure there will be good counters, like draw condition and plague signet and martyr, but seriously, like i said, there is absolutely no reason to bring skull crack

Pyro Gl
29-01-2006, 18:01
You did a great job of completely missing my point. I don't know how, it was perfectly clear. I only stated it as the first thing I said. Another thing besides, how is me listing different ways of defeating an assassin arguing that they are overpowered? I listed out several ways of defeating them and not once did I mention that they are overpowered.
what parker is saying, is that compared with other assassin skills, temple strike is overpowered. you were listing methods to counter any assassin regardless of whether they had temple strike. (at least dagger mastery, but i haven't seen any good assassin build that don't use daggers)

basically, it doesn't matter how good the skill is, according to your statment, it can be countered. So a dual attack that kills in one hit wouldn't be overpowered because you could kite it while it discharges... If THAT skill isn't overpowered, then why be an assassin?

Parker Bsb
30-01-2006, 14:53
Thanks for clarifying my statement Pyro, I didn't want to reply and seem like I was flaming (I can be a little abrasive sometimes :grin: ).


To see if this skill is overpowered, let's compare this with simlar skills.
Effect Length: Ranger>Warrior>Assasin
Energy Cost: Warrior>Assasin>Ranger
Activation Time: Ranger>Assasin=Warrior
Recharge Time: Ranger>Assasin>Warrior (10 adrenline, depends)
Attribute: Warrior>Assasin=Ranger
Easiness of Daze: Assasin>Ranger>Warrior
Elite?: Ranger>Assasin=Warrior
Let's first rank the skills by number. I give a score of 10 for the best, 9 for the second best, and 8 for the last. I give a +1 or -1 score to those parts that I feel is A LOT better, and A LOT worst, then the rest.
Ranger: 10+8-1+10+10+9+9+10=65 out of 70
Warrior: 9+10+1+9+8+10+8-1+9=63 out of 70
Assasin: 8-1+9+9+9+9+10+1+9=63 out of 70
As you can see, all 3 skills are pretty close. Every skill have strenght and weakness.
So each skill have its ups and downs. It is hard to say that Temple Strike is overpowered. (edited slightly for length).

Well done! The only poblem I see is to add Dazed from either oher elite they have to be casting! Seeing as this is the most important factor out of the ones listed I think a weighted average should have been used (this is how we know that statistics can be modified to suit anyone's needs :tongue: ).

HonshuHigamori
30-01-2006, 15:50
People who claim Skull Crack to be even in the same region of usability and awesomeness as Temple Strike, much less at all similar to its power, should be automatically banned lest whatever horrific brain flu they have spread to contaminate other innocent forum users.

Chips, I think you've overlooked what perhaps could be considered a relatively important detail: You actually have to *hit* someone casting a spell to Daze them. Add that to the fact that you don't have a jillion conditions you can then immediately stack upon Daze so as to prevent easy removal of it. Perhaps you can see where this is going?

Perhaps my rudeness is uncalled for, but for the love of God man, try to use Skull Crack after having played around with Temple Strike for a few days and see if you can tell that maybe, oh just maybe, you gave it a wee too many points in that rediculous system of yours.

Bravo
30-01-2006, 20:20
I wonder how well a few elementalists with glimmering mark would work with assassins wielding shocking weapons (at least initially).

If the lead attack hits, they become blinded and so cannot block or evade, now allowing an offhand attack to be used that cannot miss. Or the assassin uses a normal attack pattern until he manages to hit, and with unseen fury keeps on hitting.

If you don't remove the hex, the assassins can keep hitting, inflicting the blind condition and thereby landing the temple strike, with every blow covering up dazed by blind if it hasn't been removed. If they remove the hex, then they will still have blind on them long enough to get your combination off. Forcing either mass enchantments and contemplation of purity, or restore conditions/purge conditions/purge signet to be used. Restore conditions cannot target self, purge conditions and purge signet have long recharge times. There are not many enchantments with a short recharge time that would be suitable for anything other than 'coping' which makes them less useful versus 'normal' groups.

Also remember that to keep coping the monk needs energy, 5 energy spent before anything is removed, requiring enchantments to be cast also requires energy (from either the team or the monk) and if it is a maintained enchantment that is being 'coped' then they also suffer from the reduced energy regeneration whilst it is in effect. Enchantments can also be removed by the assassin class, a feat which none of the other 'dazing' classes can match without a secondary.

All the dazing classes can cover dazed with another condition in the form of preparations (concussion shot has the choice of apply poison or melandru's arrows, which at the same time prevents read the wind thereby forcing favorable winds or the rangers choice of bow if the ranger wishes to apply dazed 'easily', warriors are forced to take the ranger secondary, and also forced to use apply poison (the only preparation that will work without a bow) which is expensive for a warrior). An assassin doesn't need this, the skill that inflicts daze also comes with the cover. Nothing stops the assassin however from using apply poison also, and getting dazed applied as the first condition with 4 cover conditions (blind, bleeding, deep wound and poison assumes that twisting blades is used). 4 cover conditions in 2 skills could only be matched by arcane mimicing virulence and then using an attack skill that causes a different condition, or vice versa.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

CHIPS
31-01-2006, 01:20
People who claim Skull Crack to be even in the same region of usability and awesomeness as Temple Strike, much less at all similar to its power, should be automatically banned lest whatever horrific brain flu they have spread to contaminate other innocent forum users.

Chips, I think you've overlooked what perhaps could be considered a relatively important detail: You actually have to *hit* someone casting a spell to Daze them. Add that to the fact that you don't have a jillion conditions you can then immediately stack upon Daze so as to prevent easy removal of it. Perhaps you can see where this is going?

Perhaps my rudeness is uncalled for, but for the love of God man, try to use Skull Crack after having played around with Temple Strike for a few days and see if you can tell that maybe, oh just maybe, you gave it a wee too many points in that rediculous system of yours.

Yes, Skull Crack is very hard to use. But the thing is, if you successfully "crack their head", they are really screwed. They are dazed for 15 seconds, which the warrior can easily cover with another condition like bleeding and deep wound. So you have disabled a caster for 15 seconds. And since Skull Crack do not need attribute, all your attribute points can be putted for damage.

Temple Strike on the other hand is much more easily used. You do not need to have perfect timing for it to work. But the length of the daze is very short. A mage can "run it off".

So is Temple Strike really better? Like I said, it is hard to say. With Temple Strike, you can easily daze a mage. But it does not last very long. A mage can just run around for a few seconds until the effect wears off. With Skull Crack, the mage have a good solid 15 second of daze. But as a trade off, it is very hard to daze an enemy.

So it is your choice. Are you are risk-taker? Or are you a risk-averse.

That said, I do not use Skull Crack much. I perfer to use a high-damage elite instead. Interrupt is just not my thing.

Zaxares
31-01-2006, 01:51
I've found Skull Crack to be a life saver against Mahgo Hydras and Flesh Golems in Perdition Rock. Long, LONG casting times is your friend. :wink:

Sai
31-01-2006, 03:16
Yes, Skull Crack is very hard to use. But the thing is, if you successfully "crack their head", they are really screwed. They are dazed for 15 seconds, which the warrior can easily cover with another condition like bleeding and deep wound. So you have disabled a caster for 15 seconds. And since Skull Crack do not need attribute, all your attribute points can be putted for damage.

Temple Strike on the other hand is much more easily used. You do not need to have perfect timing for it to work. But the length of the daze is very short. A mage can "run it off".

So is Temple Strike really better? Like I said, it is hard to say. With Temple Strike, you can easily daze a mage. But it does not last very long. A mage can just run around for a few seconds until the effect wears off. With Skull Crack, the mage have a good solid 15 second of daze. But as a trade off, it is very hard to daze an enemy.

So it is your choice. Are you are risk-taker? Or are you a risk-averse.

That said, I do not use Skull Crack much. I perfer to use a high-damage elite instead. Interrupt is just not my thing.

with skull crack what you have to ask your self is....do you want to use an elite slot on a 9 adrenal skill that adds no damage and requires a 2-3 second spell to interupt to have any chance of causing daze.

with temple strike you can put daze on a creature/player within seconds while also blinding them and then you can daze them again soon after, temple strike doesnt require timing...thats why its so good.

trafalgar-zero
31-01-2006, 03:19
If you use skull crack you better have a sword, or hope the enemy is casting a long spell. I dropped it from my Me/W build for Power Block, skull crack just isn't that useful in a match where you have limited time to live. In my opinion its not even in the same genre as Temple Strike. Temple strike only lasts for 7 seconds according to this site, its not that powerful, but it does put dazed status on without having to interupt a spell. So for that 7 or so seconds you better hope you can make good use of those two statuses or you just wasted an Elite. Again it is an off hand, interupt is the obvious choice, but no one that i've seened has mentioned Pacifism or Amity. Not seen much in RA, where i usually hang out, but when that is on a attacker main they just can't do anything.

lord of Bones
01-02-2006, 13:27
The assumption that Temple Strike is overpowered, because it can easily deal with ONE type of monk build (boon prot) is about as bad an argument as is possible. To slightly modify an earlier example: Against a W/mo running healing hands, an enchantment breaker mesmer is way overpowered, because it can wtfpwn the build. So is shatter enchantment overpowered then? Obviously not.

Temple Strike's power should not be measured against any single class or build. Indeed, these cries of foul from those running boon prot, that temple strike is overpowered, only show that boon prot right now is either overpowered, or far too popular of a response against something else (general spike).

Against any caster who does not almost exclusively deal with 1 second cast spells, skullcrack is a punishingly evil skill. This includes necromancers, elementalists, some mesmers, and some monks. And even vs monks and mesmers, it is not impossible to pull off, but rather a matter of player skill and learning to time out your opponents.

And while people are happy to scream about how an effect like Rigor Mortis (pffft on Rigor Mortis. Didn't anyone here try Expose Defenses? It WTFPWNS Rigor Mortis. One of the best non-elites the assassin has) lays said caster defenseless before temple strike, nobody ever considers that in combination with other skills, concussion shot and skullcrack become just as deadly. Arcane Conundrum anyone?

While I agree that Temple Strike could still use some balancing/tinkering, I also agree that this outcry against the "evil temple strike" is the same as what happenned with Healing Hands, and is a huge over-reaction.

Siru
01-02-2006, 14:44
I don't have anything to say cause 'Lord Of Bones' and few others said it clearly enough, but I still want to cry out my opinion to backup you guys :grin:
Conclusion - Temple Strike is not FTW or even FTS, it's just elite skill.

PS - Skull Crack rocks cause no one expects it and "WHAM" --> :strong:

Parker Bsb
01-02-2006, 14:46
I sorta agree with LoB, yes it does reek of "my boon/prot monk is not un-beatable" . But this skill can beat any caster not just boon prots... I think the issue with the BP monks is that they are the hardes to hurt with longer casting times so if they are getting burned I'd shudder to see how a ele or necro with 2 second cast times is going to manage.

I've sugested it before and I'm positive that this would sort-of make it more balanced: Make temple-strike a dual attack.

This makes sense as well, if you smack someone upside the head with one sai it's gonna hurt, but getting a sai pommel to both temples is gonna give you a blinding headach. This gets rid of twisting fangs to add 2 more conditions on top of the dazed/blind, and makes it slightly harder to add (honestly when I was playing a assassin I always got off my full combo if they didn't have guardian/wam etc... on them)

Still alot easier to apply than skull crack but seeing as the duration is signifantly shorter it seems more balanced... just my 2 cents

roguebanshee
01-02-2006, 15:42
And while people are happy to scream about how an effect like Rigor Mortis (pffft on Rigor Mortis. Didn't anyone here try Expose Defenses? It WTFPWNS Rigor Mortis. One of the best non-elites the assassin has) lays said caster defenseless before temple strike, nobody ever considers that in combination with other skills, concussion shot and skullcrack become just as deadly. Arcane Conundrum anyone?
One thing people seem to overlook about Expose Defenses is that it is only useful for the caster. Rigor Mortis works for everyone. ED is still a good skill, just not uber or anything.

Colretsun Andolin
01-02-2006, 19:09
The assumption that Temple Strike is overpowered, because it can easily deal with ONE type of monk build (boon prot) is about as bad an argument as is possible. To slightly modify an earlier example: Against a W/mo running healing hands, an enchantment breaker mesmer is way overpowered, because it can wtfpwn the build. So is shatter enchantment overpowered then? Obviously not.

Er, what? Boon prot has probably the best chance against temple strike...

Besides, temple strike isn't just effective against monks, its effective against whatever you are attacking, no matter what class. Blind and Daze after all.


Against any caster who does not almost exclusively deal with 1 second cast spells, skullcrack is a punishingly evil skill. This includes necromancers, elementalists, some mesmers, and some monks. And even vs monks and mesmers, it is not impossible to pull off, but rather a matter of player skill and learning to time out your opponents.

Temple strike is just as effective as skullcrack, only easier to pull off, adds a cover condition, and doesn't require a spell to interupt. It lasts 7 seconds at 12 DM, with a recharge of 12 seconds, that's significant shutdown no matter what class.

lord of Bones
01-02-2006, 20:42
Parker: Yes, it can work vs any caster, but the point is, its only really BETTER vs boon prot and similar very fast casters, because skills like concussion shot and skullcrack can excel without assistance vs longer casters. You shudder at temple strike vs an elementalist, but what about concussion shot and skull crack, both of which recharge potentially faster, and last twice to three times as long? Shudder at those :tongue:

CA: see above on the boon prot comment. On other comments: yes, its easier to pull off, to a degree. It has more requirements to pull off than any other similar skill. And as it keeps on getting pointed out, it recharges slower, and has a shorter duration than any other similar skill. So their are balances to its strength.

Finally, as an "all around" shut down skill, Temple Strike isn't the first type we've ever seen. Their are a variety of flexible shut downs, admittedly in the mesmer class. Blackout? Diversion? One of these can't be avoided, at all. And Diversion is, in a way, rather similar to temple strike. Often trying to cast through it is not an option, as losing the skill removing it is too much of a loss. So you end up kiting, avoiding, or waiting for a teamate to remove the hex or for it to expire... exactly the same tactics for dealing with daze.

And as for inflicting a cover condition... Do you have any idea how easy it is for a warrior to inflict a condition as a cover? How easy it is to inflict a cover condition as a ranger? Assassins on the other hand find it much harder to inflict a cover condition on a foe (beyond one single skill. Twisted fangs has been mentioned, and really, does seem more overpowered in its place than temple strike) Assassins haven't been given anything in temple strike that other phys damage oriented classes don't gain with ease.

Anyways, just as with any other ability, whether damage infliction, condition, hex, or whatever... temple strike requires the assistance of teamates to handle effectively. No, a lone monk is not likely to be able to work with impunity against temple strike, at least a boon protter won't. On the other hand, a quick healing breeze or shielding hands or gaurdian or... etc etc thrown on yourself BEFORE the sin pulls off his temple strike is almost gauranteed to pull you through it, as its been pointed out that sins just don't do quite as much dps as a warrior. So while it has its place, its just as easy to bypass and get through it.

Maybe, instead of complaining about it, it should be looked at in the context of the rest of the game, as a response to domination of a single character type, a force to inspire diversity in the game.


**Edit//: And to reiterate, I STILL think that Temple Strike could use some tinkering to fully balance it. Whether that is a movement in its strike order, or an added effect to it, such as disabling your other attack skills for x seconds after a temple strike is pulled off, or some other suggestion...

Archedgar
01-02-2006, 21:10
Melee ranged, 75% chance to fail against a guardianed/aegised target, elite, on a 'fragile' character.

Certainly far better then what we do have, but hardly overkill.

I read the thread, few people made the comparison I was expecting to see in page 1. Which is...


Skull Crack and Concussion Shot compared to Temple Strike, both of the afformentioned skills have severe drawbacks with a much weaker "End Result" even if you can meet the condition(interrupt).

Skull Crack and Concussion shot have every "avoidance" disadvantage that Temple Strike has with some added heavier drawbacks(25 energy, 9 adrenaline). Personally, I voted "Yes", by sheer comparison, it absolutely blows away Skull Crack, the elite MELEE attack, its not even remotely near the same level of usefulness, I,e, nerf it, or bring the others in line with it...


The longer duration of skull crack is offset by the fact that skull crack has a *much* longer re-use time of 9 adrenaline, in response to those who say that the longer duration makes them "even", despite the obvious drawback of having to interrupt a spell at melee range with a non-instant melee attack.

Parker Bsb
01-02-2006, 21:22
Parker: Yes, it can work vs any caster, but the point is, its only really BETTER vs boon prot and similar very fast casters, because skills like concussion shot and skullcrack can excel without assistance vs longer casters. You shudder at temple strike vs an elementalist, but what about concussion shot and skull crack, both of which recharge potentially faster, and last twice to three times as long? Shudder at those :tongue:

No need to shudder at those skills as thI have seen them maybe a total of 6 times in all my PvPing. I do see your point in that it may be because it IS such a underused condition why we feel it's overpoweded... I wonder how people would feel if deep would was only easily avaiable after the 2nd expansion... I can see people crying NERF there too :tongue:



And as for inflicting a cover condition... Do you have any idea how easy it is for a warrior to inflict a condition as a cover? How easy it is to inflict a cover condition as a ranger? Assassins on the other hand find it much harder to inflict a cover condition on a foe (beyond one single skill. Twisted fangs has been mentioned, and really, does seem more overpowered in its place than temple strike) Assassins haven't been given anything in temple strike that other phys damage oriented classes don't gain with ease.


True a warrior can add a cover condition BUT it takes to skills to do not one



Maybe, instead of complaining about it, it should be looked at in the context of the rest of the game, as a response to domination of a single character type, a force to inspire diversity in the game.

**Edit//: And to reiterate, I STILL think that Temple Strike could use some tinkering to fully balance it. Whether that is a movement in its strike order, or an added effect to it, such as disabling your other attack skills for x seconds after a temple strike is pulled off, or some other suggestion...

Agreed 100% with these statements.

Aside: I didn't reply to everything you said, well because it mostly made sense. What I do find weird tho is you are saying it's not blatantly overpowered, and yet it does need some sort of tweak :wink: ... me thinks we were arguing the same points in a different way

Patccmoi
01-02-2006, 21:22
I read the thread, few people made the comparison I was expecting to see in page 1. Which is...


Skull Crack and Concussion Shot compared to Temple Strike, both of the afformentioned skills have severe drawbacks with a much weaker "End Result" even if you can meet the condition(interrupt).

Skull Crack and Concussion shot have every "avoidance" disadvantage that Temple Strike has with some added heavier drawbacks(25 energy, 9 adrenaline). Personally, I voted "Yes", by sheer comparison, it absolutely blows away Skull Crack, the elite MELEE attack, its not even remotely near the same level of usefulness, I,e, nerf it, or bring the others in line with it...


The longer duration of skull crack is offset by the fact that skull crack has a *much* longer re-use time of 9 adrenaline, in response to those who say that the longer duration makes them "even", despite the obvious drawback of having to interrupt a spell at melee range with a non-instant melee attack.

I agree... Temple Strike is just an insult to Skull Crack. Concussion isn't elite, so it can be acceptable, non-elites need to have real drawback if the result is good. But Skull Crack is ALSO an elite. And don't bring me something like 'it's on a fragile character'. A Ranger/Assassin can easily do Temple Strike, and Rangers are really not that fragile with tons of stances vs attacks + best defense vs elemental.

Skull Crack requires 9 adrenaline. You're lucky if you get it in 12 seconds. Then you have to wait for an interrupt and Skull Crack is a NEXT ATTACK skill, meaning you can't truly interrupt skills below 2 sec cast reliably. Not to mention Skull Crack isn't an opener for a non-elite attack that can score Deep Wound + Bleeding + extra damage, or straight KD, etc.

And Temple Strike ALSO adds Blind, so it's not just good vs casters.

So Temple Strike needs a nerf or Skull Crack needs a buff (well it already does need a buff anyway, it should AT LEAST be something like a .25 activation skill, not a next attack, it's elite ffs). And Temple Strike imo truly needs a nerf as is. Once again, the fact that counters exist doesn't make a skill balanced.

Bravo
01-02-2006, 21:38
Another thought occured to me since the last time I posted.

The fact that the recharge time and duration of the skill are such that it isn't recharged by the time it wears off is a good thing.

You cannot use concussion shot or skullcrack on a person who is already dazed because the attack interupts them before the skill. Likely the same would happen with temple strike.

As such with temple strike as it is, you can be sure that using it won't waste it. (Compared perhaps with concussion shot, where the dazed effect could be on for an instant when the player starts casting but wears off halfway through casting, so your normal attacks don't interupt and it is too late to take advantage of the slower cast time to reinflict dazed, or conversely, you go to reapply dazed and it runs out on the next spell because the old duration hadn't expired yet - the 'exploding head' graphic takes a while to fade similar to burning...)

lord of Bones
01-02-2006, 22:53
Bravo: Are you sure about not being able to interupt to daze a person if they are allready dazed? Because that is as much a bug as a negative feature, methinks, and should be fixed if true =P

Patcc: Concussion Shot and Skullcrack HAVE been extensively compared to TS in this thread, ya just didn't read far enough :tongue: I don't agree with your statement, though. While skullcrack is underpowered in utility (adding a 1/2 sec cast time to it like distracting shot or distracting blow might help that) its effect is just as powerful as temple strike. TS inflicts 2 conditions for a maximum of 8 seconds. So total of 16 seconds of condition adding (2 con x 8 sec). That is with high dagger skill. Skull Crack inflicts 15 seconds of conditions (1 cond x 15 sec) with no skill investment whatsoever.


I think another thing that many people have not realized yet, is that one of skullcrack's main drawbacks is its melee range. Assassins have many skills to change the whole movement style of battle, as well as skills to pierce dodge/evade and bypass blindness. With these tools at an Assassin's hand, the possibility of using Skullcrack becomes even more feasible on A/W or W/A's. In a few months, we might be hearing screams about how Skullcrack is overpowered compared to Temple Strike... now wouldn't that be funny ^^

Bravo
01-02-2006, 23:20
Test using melandrus arrows and concussion shot (versus the master of energy denial - spirit shackles (- and also commonly thought of as an anti ranger skill) and other energy denial spells are so easy to deny).

Set wilderness survival so bleed duration lasts for 16 seconds. Set marksmanship so that dazed lasts for 17 seconds.

Concussion shot 1 skill, recharge (in 5 seconds thanks to quickening zephyr) concussion shot a second skill (with melandrus arrows still on) and run away and observe hp bar and the player...

The dazed effect should wear off after the bleeding duration. However, bleed lasts longer than the dazed, so the second dazed wasn't applied...

EDIT:

I posted this in the bug forum or community forum months back, with a poll to see if people thought it should be fixed (I think it was easily interupted actions and interupts or something), the concensus was along the lines of "You interupted the skill what more do you want." so the thread was abandoned.

HonshuHigamori
02-02-2006, 02:29
I think another thing that many people have not realized yet, is that one of skullcrack's main drawbacks is its melee range.

Have you used Skull Crack? The fact that it requires melee range is not the major drawback. The drawback is that it only effects your next attack, meaning that catching even 1 second spells with it is iffy at best, and if you miss, NOTHING HAPPENS.

Temple Strike is unconditional, has a built in cover condition (Though I can't quite remember if Daze is done after Blind or not, so not too sure), leads into an attack which delivers two more cover conditions, and interrupts the attack it hits.

You seem to be under the misconception that out of all the thousands of players that play Guild Wars, no one has taken a serious look at Skull Crack. That's not the case. It's just that, compared to other elites, both from the Warriors own class and other classes elite skills with the idea of shutting down casters, it sucks. A lot.

lord of Bones
02-02-2006, 13:11
Its no different than powerblock, or any of the other multitudes of interupts in this game, in that if you miss with it, it is wasted, mate. It recharges much faster than the mesmer interupts, with potentially greater effect than similar utility mesmer elite (powerblock). Its great limiters are it is melee range, and melee applied, so weapon swing speed and needing to be faster than your foe so you can swing when needed. If they added an independantly timed attack speed to the weapon (Like distracting blow, which is what, 1/2 sec, 3/4 sec swing speed?) it would probably be a lot easier to pull off.

With its lack of usage, Skullcrack should get its own fix to make it a worthy of use elite. But just because Skullcrack is effectively worthless, to most people, does not mean that temple strike reliably working is cause for calling TempleStrike overpowered. The reality is, that because the only 2 other skills in the game which inflict daze have been, for the most part, ignored by most players people don't know how or want to have to handle daze and what it does to casters. Which is tough luck me buckos, 'cause daze is staying in the game, and is likely to get pushed even harder, as I seem to recall a much easier daze infliction skill going into rangers now as well.

Patccmoi
02-02-2006, 14:17
Its no different than powerblock, or any of the other multitudes of interupts in this game, in that if you miss with it, it is wasted, mate. It recharges much faster than the mesmer interupts, with potentially greater effect than similar utility mesmer elite (powerblock). Its great limiters are it is melee range, and melee applied, so weapon swing speed and needing to be faster than your foe so you can swing when needed. If they added an independantly timed attack speed to the weapon (Like distracting blow, which is what, 1/2 sec, 3/4 sec swing speed?) it would probably be a lot easier to pull off.

With its lack of usage, Skullcrack should get its own fix to make it a worthy of use elite. But just because Skullcrack is effectively worthless, to most people, does not mean that temple strike reliably working is cause for calling TempleStrike overpowered. The reality is, that because the only 2 other skills in the game which inflict daze have been, for the most part, ignored by most players people don't know how or want to have to handle daze and what it does to casters. Which is tough luck me buckos, 'cause daze is staying in the game, and is likely to get pushed even harder, as I seem to recall a much easier daze infliction skill going into rangers now as well.

Try to look at the skills from an 8v8 perspective now, not a 1 monk no support chars situation, alright?

Skull Crack lasting 16 seconds instead of 8 seconds means nothing. There's NO WAY someone will leave the Daze there for this long.

How can you compare Skull Crack to Power Block? Power Block is a VERY reliable interrupt, its effect even works through MoR and any Mesmer that has some interrupt practice can get any 1 sec spell (hell, even 0.75 when you're used to it) reliably with it, from range. And its effect cannot be reversed in any way (well, mostly, unless you're a R/Me that got hit by Power Block and carry Oath Shot, which just never happens). Also, in 8v8 situation, with potentially Aegis and very likely Guardian, Wards, hexes, etc, do you seriously think that charging 9 adrenaline is much faster recharge? 9 adrenaline is a damn lot, unless you swing in Berserker Stance without using any other adrenaline skill (in which case you're potentially useless).

The problem with Temple Strike, as was said over and over, is that it's ridiculously easy to apply and Assassins can really come out of nowhere with it, you can even use Dancing Daggers on someone for a can't be blocked/evaded opener, use Way of the Fox, and your Temple can't be blocked or evaded with that alone (tough there is many other ways to do it). Daze is just too powerful to be easily applied AND on a pretty fast recharge skill.

Malchiel
02-02-2006, 21:53
Try to look at the skills from an 8v8 perspective now, not a 1 monk no support chars situation, alright?

Skull Crack lasting 16 seconds instead of 8 seconds means nothing. There's NO WAY someone will leave the Daze there for this long.

How can you compare Skull Crack to Power Block? Power Block is a VERY reliable interrupt, its effect even works through MoR and any Mesmer that has some interrupt practice can get any 1 sec spell (hell, even 0.75 when you're used to it) reliably with it, from range. And its effect cannot be reversed in any way (well, mostly, unless you're a R/Me that got hit by Power Block and carry Oath Shot, which just never happens). Also, in 8v8 situation, with potentially Aegis and very likely Guardian, Wards, hexes, etc, do you seriously think that charging 9 adrenaline is much faster recharge? 9 adrenaline is a damn lot, unless you swing in Berserker Stance without using any other adrenaline skill (in which case you're potentially useless).

The problem with Temple Strike, as was said over and over, is that it's ridiculously easy to apply and Assassins can really come out of nowhere with it, you can even use Dancing Daggers on someone for a can't be blocked/evaded opener, use Way of the Fox, and your Temple can't be blocked or evaded with that alone (tough there is many other ways to do it). Daze is just too powerful to be easily applied AND on a pretty fast recharge skill.

Skull crack is a very useless skill, that no sane man would use.

Powerblock is a slight bit more useful, but seriously it's still underpowered. Sure you can interrupt 1 second spell. NEWS FLASH: many monk spells are actually 1/4 second. Try interrupting that... yeah right! And you can interrupt 1 second spells only if it's not interspersed with 1/4 second spells. Heck human brain takes about .4 second to recognize stuff (I read this somewhere). Unless you pop powerblock everytime something is fired, there's very little chance you'll hit anything. .4s (time needed for your brain to recognize the skill being cast) + .25 (activation) + .25 (pre-cast time) +.1 (for you to press that keyboard). Unless every spell is 1 second or more, you cannot, repeat, cannot reliably hit 1 second spell, much less .75 Powerblock can shut down ele, necros reliably, but just not monks or mesmers. Coz those two don't use spells that have at least 1 second cast. And FYI, yes I can interrupt 1 second spells, no I can't interrupt if it's a bunch of spells mixed with skills, mixed with 1/4 second casting spells.

And now there's temple strike. It's how shut down should have been. Duh. If you nerf TS to become as useful as Skull Crack... well you have another useless skill in GW.

If you nerf TS to become like powerblock... are you kidding? Powerblock has distance and it is not removable.

TS has to be more powerful than powerblock to make it useful.

Warriors have blind... casters have??? Skull Crack? What a joke. Nobody uses daze, at least this time, caster gets dazed too, just as warriors/rangers get blind.

Archedgar
02-02-2006, 23:14
If you nerf TS to become like powerblock... are you kidding? Powerblock has distance and it is not removable.

You're conviniently ignoring the fact that power block requires 15 energy, has a 30 second recharge, and requires the mesmer to land an interrupt.

If anything, Temple Strike should be significantly weaker than Power Block based on: Recharge, energy cost, ease of use....


TS has to be more powerful than powerblock to make it useful.

Actually, it is the otherway around, considering power block fits into the most difficult "to apply" effects(interrupt) whereas Temple Strike is basically a free hit.

Any argument saying that Temple Strike should be able to apply dazed based on "Power Block is the same thing" automatically causes the person debating it to lose all credibility... if you've ever used Power Block, you would easily understand "why".

lord of Bones
03-02-2006, 01:04
No, mate, blanket accusations like that are what cause people to lose all credibility, as they are the mark of a closed mind.

I stand by the point that just because one skill is weaker than it should be, does not mean you should beat another down with the nerf stick, and make both worthless.

And the duration of a skill *can* still matter. In 8vs8, 1 or 2 characters are usually in charge of condition removal, so you go after those characters the most with conditions if possible. Standard tactics for any intelligent guild team. If the character is carrying only condition removal for others, or it is limited condition removal, the duration can be very, very important if you keep renewing the covers.

Honestly, though, tone the discussion down. This has been a calm, intelligent discourse so far. Don't change that.