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CKaz
08-02-2006, 20:49
I've been thinking about this and still it doesn't jive

I'm sorry but its

2 pips for warrior (physical melee)
3 for ranger (physical ranged)
4 for caster (multiple variants, wanding and staffing)

and 4 pips for the fastest physical melee type?
who gets mana return on crits and increases crit chances?
who attacks faster than any of the above?
who can use zealous mods (casters cant)
who can use maintains better than warr and ranger (only 2, 3 pips)

which given all the above suggests they'll make mana possibly faster than any current caster character designed today to only do just that?

Also given all the skills are mana and most attacks, as pointed out R/A will also be arguably over the top. Sure you lose the assassin primary but everything sooo much cheaper with expertise and once again load up with zealous - yikes.

Just make a lot more sense at 3 pips. I think about what my warrior does with 2 in some combinations with zealous, and think about how much over the top a 4 pip melee zealous crit-energy returning spamming assassin can do, ie I'd be surprised if a/mo >>> w/mo, biggest reason being the pips & speed & zealous mod results even before factoring more crits + energy.

Guess we'll see what happens!

CKaz

MaximumSquid
08-02-2006, 22:57
That's interesting . . .I didn't really notice during the pvp weekend. . .I just assumed assassins had 3 energy regen like rangers

Yazoo
09-02-2006, 00:50
I think its because Assasin Primary can use Spells, Hexes and Enchants like a Caster (4 pips) and a melee warrior primary dont use that kind of skills so 2 pips for him.

Valice
09-02-2006, 01:50
It's because combos use energy. Because you chain them together so quickly, you need the mana to keep up.

Colretsun Andolin
09-02-2006, 02:41
Warriors use adrenaline for the most part, they hardly even need energy. Plus their armor is way better in the defense catagory.

Rangers have expertise...do I need to argue for the effectiveness of this?

Goldfish God
09-02-2006, 04:09
I would say it is slightly bemusing. I didn't really play assassins during the beta, but I kinda thought the critical hits returning energy would provide a similar energy management effect as ranger's expertise. I.e. a semi-regular energy return for each successful strike compared to rangers reduced intial cost.

If it really isn't an effective source of energy as I expected I guess they really need 4.

But I would think they're way more likely to burn through their mana with all those combos flying.

The Experimentor
09-02-2006, 05:50
You have to take into account that Assassins' daggers are "both hands" weapons- no room, for an off-hand unless they take a one-handed weapon (based on secondary). Even with 4 pips, they only get maximum of 20 Energy IIRC, unless they were their special armor.

Even if it's not much of a weakness, most of their skills have long recharge times, so they can't use all that Energy anyway. For that matter, though they have rather low-costed skills, most of them have to be used in chains, so the cumulative cost is pretty great.

One thing, though: high Dagger Mastery (thus high chances for double attacks) combined with the Zealous mod for daggers can be pretty nasty. :evil:

But all in all, I say keep it as is. :wink: It may seem unbalanced, but given that Assassins are almost mage/Mesmer/Monk fragile once they start taking hits, this seemingly huge advantage may be needed to keep them playable. They weren't dominating nor broken during the beta where we saw them having the 4 pips, which indicates ANet is on the right track for them.

lord of Bones
09-02-2006, 13:09
Once you actually *play* an assassin, you realize it is in fact quite balanced. I had definite issues with energy at times. Its quite easy to burn through your supply quickly. Reducing their pips of regen *will* permanently gimp the class.

undeadpoilce
10-02-2006, 11:10
Once you actually *play* an assassin, you realize it is in fact quite balanced. I had definite issues with energy at times. Its quite easy to burn through your supply quickly. Reducing their pips of regen *will* permanently gimp the class.


strongly agree

sandbenders
10-02-2006, 14:37
From the beginning I've said that Assassins are overpowered:

- critical damages
- Stealth
- Fast attack
- 4 Pips of regeneration
- ....

Now, please don't give me the 'with *whatever* build they drop like flies', because that applies to any class/build.

drekmonger
10-02-2006, 14:49
Rangers have decent armor, 3 pips.
Warriors have great armor, 2 pips.
Casters have weak armor, 4 pips.


Assassins have weak armor. 4 pips. Not only that, but assassins more or less have to be melee range to use most of their skills. Weak armor + melee range is a huge disadvantage.

Parker Bsb
10-02-2006, 15:08
Not to mention that their skills have fairly long recharges (repeating strike not-withstanding...) so even with "massive energy regen" (think zealous + 4 pips + crit strikes) they really won't have much use for that extra energy.

If you build a A/E as a spellcaster (for whatever) reason you are limited to 26 energy IIRC from armor... and your criticals are not going to matter as you won't put any points in thee to maximize your damage output.

bellissima
10-02-2006, 15:18
Rangers have decent armor, 3 pips.
Warriors have great armor, 2 pips.
Casters have weak armor, 4 pips.


Assassins have weak armor. 4 pips. Not only that, but assassins more or less have to be melee range to use most of their skills. Weak armor + melee range is a huge disadvantage.

I thought Assassins had 70 AL like rangers.

I agree with the OP... it was one of the first things I noticed over the beta weekend. :huh: I confess I didn't spend too much time playing the assassin so I'm not going to be overly judgemental.

CyanBoy
10-02-2006, 16:08
From the beginning I've said that Assassins are overpowered:

- critical damages
- Stealth
- Fast attack
- 4 Pips of regeneration
- ....

Now, please don't give me the 'with *whatever* build they drop like flies', because that applies to any class/build.

You forgot to mention the huger disadvantages the Assassin have. With a "Block" or "Evade" stance/enchantment the Assassin is to no use.

Akisame Kiyoraba
10-02-2006, 16:37
Am i missing something?

- I played an A/W the entire pvp weekend, and as far as i noticed, at least from the unlockable skills, there was no stealth skill, just a bunch of teleportation skills that if anything, will make someone like a m/a alot harder to take down, although to have a full combo most assassins won't be able to afford having that many teleports available.

- The only reason it looks like assassins attack faster is because they have a high chance to double attack, which gives it an animation that looks like your attacking on-stop. The only case where an assassin would go absolutely berserk is with the elite, locust fury combined with an attack speed booster, but the only good attack speed stance that works decently(Excluding flurry and IW) is tiger's fury, which is an attribute linked stance, and locust fury occupies the elite slot. Otherwise, their attack speed seems to be about the same as swords.

- Critical strikes in this aren't something like WoW, where it allows you to one-shot people. It just makes it so that the hit does full damage (17), and nullifies 20 armor on the target. If your lucky enough to have it go off when your not in a crit heavy build, while on a dual attack, it *might* do over 100 damage, due to the nature that dual attacks do double the damage listed.

- Assassins are if anything, much more energy heavy than any caster, and their only form of energy management is zealous weapons. Sorry, but the extra few energy from critical just doesn't cut it, for when combos take 15-20 energy for every spurt, in melee range, and they can get completely messed over by blind, aegis, stances, or anything that prevents consecutive hits.

Please, correct me if i'm wrong

BLAHHH
10-02-2006, 17:08
During the PvP weekend, even with a zealous weapon and not casting much, I still found as an Assassin I was running out of energy pretty damn quickly. Those critical hits for energy don't kick in as often as it first seems, and most of the Assassin's skills and spells cost a fair amount of energy and you have to spam them all usually within the space of just a few seconds too boot. Combine that with their annoyingly average armour (Rangers get a big boost against all elemental attacks all the time remember; the armour boosts the Assassin gets don't apply to such a broad range of attacks and they're more circumstantial), and they're a pretty fragile class to play as. They may hit hard and on paper seem overpowered, but in reality when playing as them you're basially only effective for a matter of seconds, then you're spent and need to leg it to regen before you get whumped yourself.

Purifier
10-02-2006, 17:21
Also Daggerts do attack faster than swords naturally, they have a 0.77 attack speed. where as swords are 1.00 axes 1.33 and hammers at 1.66. Daggers also have an amazingly low damage max, the lowest of ALL weapons. 17 max damage due to the combination of Doublestrike and their fast attack speed. Overpowered my fanny, they are VERY balanced, the Rit spirits need to be fixed slightly(need to not bodyblock since when does a non corporeal form block a corporeal one.)

Siru
10-02-2006, 17:22
4 point energy regenration? Deserved. Too little energypoll? Nope, just fine. Assassins skills cost too much? Think of another way, there is always atleast one.

..no offence. Just telling my opinion.

IMO assassin is nicely built in every aspect. I don't think that those combos are too easily disrupted if you are not trying to pull of 4-5 hit combos. Someone has to look closely assassins movements to be aware of the incoming attack and during the attack.. it's too late if team knows what they are doing.


(need to not bodyblock since when does a non corporeal form block a corporeal one.)
Amen. :wink:

Zero
10-02-2006, 17:36
I thought Assassins had 70 AL like rangers.

They do But rangers also have an extra 30AL against all elements and a possible extra 15AL against a single element ontp of that :wink:

Vexed Arcanist
10-02-2006, 17:57
Rangers also have EXPERTISE. Many of the assassin skills cost a massive 10 energy. You aren't measuring the full assassin, you simply gauge 4 pip energy regen. The only players that would complain are those who didn't experience the beta PvP weekend. The most effective assassin, as a pure melee'er, IMO, was the R/A.

lord of Bones
10-02-2006, 18:18
Only if you just played premades. If you actually got into the sin skills, you quickly realized that there are, in fact, ways to manage your energy. Critical Eye is a handy skill to boost your crit chance for very low cost and long duration, and helps bring the energy pool up. Constantly running a zealous weapon when attacking and switching off when running/chasing helped quite a bit. I felt my energy was pretty tight, but what class doesn't tend to have tight energy problems without carrying an energy management skill of some form?

Health Influence
10-02-2006, 18:36
One skill.

Golden Lotus Strike

Vexed Arcanist
10-02-2006, 18:42
Only if you just played premades. If you actually got into the sin skills, you quickly realized that there are, in fact, ways to manage your energy. Critical Eye is a handy skill to boost your crit chance for very low cost and long duration, and helps bring the energy pool up. Constantly running a zealous weapon when attacking and switching off when running/chasing helped quite a bit. I felt my energy was pretty tight, but what class doesn't tend to have tight energy problems without carrying an energy management skill of some form?

I had quite a few skills I managed to unlock, I played various builds. Ranger with Expertise is, as of that weekend, the best way to run the assassin as an Assassin and not some pseudo-other profession (nothing wrong with that, but it isn't the point of the OP). Expertise > 4 pip regen. Even with Zealous weapons.

Parker Bsb
10-02-2006, 19:43
I dunno, (I forget the names so bear with me here...) with the crit strike and dagger mastery maxed (12+1 crit 12+2 dm couldn't get the sup rune) and zealous weapons I usually pulled off a full string combo with 2 repeating strikes and didn't run out of energy (I was close every time...)

the skills I used were pertty much the starter ones, switching the self heal skill for repeating strike.


- I know there were better skills to be had, but I wanted to see how much the attribs assisted... and I didn't have alot of time to farm faction :embarassed:

Archedgar
10-02-2006, 21:10
Also Daggerts do attack faster than swords naturally, they have a 0.77 attack speed. where as swords are 1.00 axes 1.33 and hammers at 1.66.

Unless this was changed very recently, Axes and Swords have exactly the same attack speed....

lord of Bones
10-02-2006, 22:40
Vexed, its all about what you wanted to get out of your skills. You can maybe run a few more skills because of expertise and its energy cost reduction, but I would bet that 16 dagger mastery killed off the target faster, and pulled in a lot more crits, especially with critical eye, to keep energy coming in.

Its all about balance, and it seems to be relatively balanced right now, which is why I'm sayin if it ain't broke, don't fix it :cool:

Vexed Arcanist
10-02-2006, 22:48
Vexed, its all about what you wanted to get out of your skills. You can maybe run a few more skills because of expertise and its energy cost reduction, but I would bet that 16 dagger mastery killed off the target faster, and pulled in a lot more crits, especially with critical eye, to keep energy coming in.

Its all about balance, and it seems to be relatively balanced right now, which is why I'm sayin if it ain't broke, don't fix it :cool:

Any reasonable debate can not avoid the fact Soul Reaping and Expertise are the 2 best attributes when it comes to energy. 4 pips is nothing in comparison. I don't know many Eles that wouldn't want Expertise. The fact is many of the assassin skills are very costly, if measured against the ranger I would bet they average the same cost across all skills. Ranger doesn't have 4 pip regen but it has Expertise. Assassin does not have expertise. You would quickly find with 3 pip regen on energy you would seriously need to rebalance the skill costs of an assassin. Simply forcing all assassins to use Zealous weapons in order to offset a poor attempt to "balance" because some folks don't agree with it is not a strong suggestion.

Telkandore
11-02-2006, 00:36
No matter how many pips of energy it had...

Spirit Shackles > All Assassins

Lefaras
11-02-2006, 03:51
I think 4 pips is very reasonable for an assasin.Considering that most of the skills in deadly arts and shadow arts are spells and the huge energy demand when pulling off a 4 hits combo, assasin is petty much a melee mage.

Anything lower than 4 pips will make this class UNDERpowered......

lord of Bones
11-02-2006, 08:11
I think the energy return from faster attacks and critical strikes is really being overlooked here. Though much better with a zealous weapon, even without the energy return is rather good. Assuming 1 critical every 4 seconds or so as not being too far out of the realms of possibility, that's like adding another pip of energy regen on top of 4 pips allready. And that's not factoring in fast base attacks with zealous and double striking... Assassins in a speed rig will probably have the equivalent of 6 or more pips of regen while attacking. It worked well for me in the BWE. Like I said, energy was tight, but nothing unexpected in that, with such a low max energy, energy would be tight no matter what.

As a side note, Necros are probably going to get even better with factions, as there will be an even greater abundance of creatures to die and give them energy :)

charrlover
14-02-2006, 19:05
From the beginning I've said that Assassins are overpowered:

- critical damages
- Stealth
- Fast attack
- 4 Pips of regeneration
- ....

Now, please don't give me the 'with *whatever* build they drop like flies', because that applies to any class/build.
Stealth? Do you mean the ability to teleport?

Back on topic:
Considering that Assassins use hexes, enchantments, spells and attack spells and that all of these require energy I can understand the decision. However using Zealous Daggers, wearing armor that adds to your energy pool and upping the attributes "Critical Hits" and "Dagger Mastery" may be going a bit far....
We shall see and hey Anet isn't scared to swing the nerf bat around a bit if needed are they?:girly:

Siru
14-02-2006, 23:30
Considering that Assassins use hexes, enchantments, spells and attack spells and that all of these require energy I can understand the decision. However using Zealous Daggers, wearing armor that adds to your energy pool and upping the attributes "Critical Hits" and "Dagger Mastery" may be going a bit far....
We shall see and hey Anet isn't scared to swing the nerf bat around a bit if needed are they?:girly:
Emm.. How it going too far? What direction, could you show me? I'm little bit lost here :huh: (sorry, I maybe going a little slow atm - this is not to piss anyone off)

undeadpoilce
15-02-2006, 17:34
they are no overpowered if fact 4 pips is just nice for them becuz assassins use combo chains that use up alot of mana compare to warrior thats use adrenaline... some of u would say if u use A/W your assassin can use adrenaline as well i won't say that u are wrong but assassin has low armor and it need u too hit a few time just to able to use a adrenaline skill which is not a good ideal. If u say that assassin are overpowered then must have not played during the pvp beta. Unless u have a video or movie that shows u are using a assassin that is overpowered(I wan to see a assassin killing a pro player, not just some noob player) if not stop saying his overpowered becuz u have no ideal how hard it is to use compare to a warrior.

PS: Stealth?! assassin in GW dun have stealth at all!!!! OMG can u at least play as a assassin b4 coming here and start crying about it

Gangrel
15-02-2006, 20:00
From the beginning I've said that Assassins are overpowered:

- critical damages
- Stealth
- Fast attack
- 4 Pips of regeneration
- ....

Now, please don't give me the 'with *whatever* build they drop like flies', because that applies to any class/build.


- crit damage -> wars have strengh - higher damage per hit. and everyone knows strengh sucks (and so does the assasins main attribute, except the energy gain.. But that doesnt scale with points put itno it..
- stealth -> huh?? what stealth??
- fast attack -> lower damage per hit
- 4 pips of regen -> small energy pool, no adrenaline, chained attacks means you need to keep using using those skills fast, and loosing a lot of energy. Also assasins have hexes, enchantments and other spells.


Everything is balanced, And I would call assasins as overpowered as wariors...