Desert Minotaurs as slaves?

[Dunnoir]

i was out murderising some desert minotaurs the other day when i noticed something on their belly. http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7798/minatour5lp.th.png (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minatour5lp.png)
I have tried to get a picture from a different angle but its proving difficult, what with the attack animations and all.

To me these look like steel rings that one might use to pull along an unwilling animal. Now im not one for coming up with lore, but could it be that either the Margonites or the Elonians managed to tame the minotaurs, or maybe they force them to be slaves like the Stone Summit?

Discuss

[Goldfish God]

I kinda thought they were body-piercing/fashion/tribal-status jewellery. It's two steel rings judging from the colour. Which would generally suggest Minotaurs have a level of culture.

[Seyfert]

i dunno i just cant picture minotaur culture, for one their body structure doesn't seem to suggest that they could even use tools and there's nothing to suggest they have an level of intelligence higher than a turkey

[RilderView]

i dunno i just cant picture minotaur culture, for one their body structure doesn't seem to suggest that they could even use tools and there's nothing to suggest they have an level of intelligence higher than a turkey

Well.....


Min·o·taur

Min·o·taur [mínnə tàwr, mnə tàwr]
n
Greek monster killed by Theseus: in Greek mythology, a monster with the body of a man and head of a bull that lived in the Cretan labyrinth and was fed human sacrifices until it was killed by Theseus


Since Minotaurs are part man it could be there human side giving them the culture

[Seyfert]

yes but these minotaurs arent from greek mythology and they certainly dont have human bodies

[Sol Rael]

They could simply be extremely primitive. Some early human societies seemed to employ piercings and body art to denote things. Perhaps these minotaurs have done the same.
Also, given that the only instances we really have of contact with them result in combat, we can hardly make large judgements on their intelligence. While they don't use tools, it's possible that their current stage of evolution is sufficiently adept at dealing with their common tasks that they don't need them. They can certainly take poison arrows pretty well.

[Dunnoir]

well if the rings are jewellry (sp?) then wouldnt they put them somewhere more visable. i mean isnt the point of piercing to show them off to other people? I believe some tribes use them for a sign of rank, so the more, or bigger the rings the higher rank they are. again, these would surly be put in a more visable spot

[Quintus Antonius]

The thing about these rings being a sign of slavery is that they are sunken into the flesh. If the Minotaurs were "chained" to something, all they'd have to do it pull hard enough and they are free. Sure it's painful, but when you've lived in slavery, a small flesh wound isn't that bad.

Another thing that suggests these aren't slave rings is that they are on the chest, giving the Minotaur full use of its arms and, more importantly, its vicious head. I don't know about you, but I'd hate to be the person that has to get in there and put a chain between a raging pair of fists and a goring head.

I believe the Minotaurs, like suggested, have a primative form of culture. Perhaps their intelligence is only that of say a Neanderthal. We know they had a very, very rudimentary form of social organization, and we see this in the way the Minotaurs organize themselves into groups.

Perhaps if we can get a better picture of the object, we'd be able to determine what exactly it is.

[Lazarus Dio]

The first thing that came to mind for me was "The Elementalist's Path" quest that take place in the desert. Cembrien tells you:

The desert holds many secrets for those who would uncover them. Are you such a seeker of knowledge? Then let your journey begin in the Prophet's Path. Long ago, those lands were ruled by the Sorcerer Lord Kree, who controlled an army of beasts, their flesh inscribed with runes of power that only he understood. Even today, among the progeny of his ancient army are sometimes born those bearing the mark of Kree.

I would propose that the rings or chains could be a throw back to the times of Lord Kree. If minotar are a primitive society it could be that these objects are worn by the Minotaur as decoration or for ceremonial purposes and that their origional purpose of enslavement has been lost over many generations.

There is something that could blow my entire theory out of the water. Have these rings been found on any Minotaur outside of the desert? It sounds as if Lord Kree's army was limited to the desert area. Existance of the rings in other geographies would suggest two possibilities: an alternative source of the rings or that all Minotaur origionated from the desert and migrated from there.

[Quintus Antonius]

The first thing that came to mind for me was "The Elementalist's Path" quest that take place in the desert. Cembrien tells you:

The desert holds many secrets for those who would uncover them. Are you such a seeker of knowledge? Then let your journey begin in the Prophet's Path. Long ago, those lands were ruled by the Sorcerer Lord Kree, who controlled an army of beasts, their flesh inscribed with runes of power that only he understood. Even today, among the progeny of his ancient army are sometimes born those bearing the mark of Kree.

I would propose that the rings or chains could be a throw back to the times of Lord Kree. If minotar are a primitive society it could be that these objects are worn by the Minotaur as decoration or for ceremonial purposes and that their origional purpose of enslavement has been lost over many generations.

There is something that could blow my entire theory out of the water. Have these rings been found on any Minotaur outside of the desert? It sounds as if Lord Kree's army was limited to the desert area. Existance of the rings in other geographies would suggest two possibilities: an alternative source of the rings or that all Minotaur origionated from the desert and migrated from there.

Does completeing the quest reveal anything further about this?

[Lazarus Dio]

Does completeing the quest reveal anything further about this?


hmm... not sure. It's been a while since I've done that one. I don't think so. Maybe it is time I do it again.

[Quintus Antonius]

hmm... not sure. It's been a while since I've done that one. I don't think so. Maybe it is time I do it again.

Well like, it says that he used runes to control the beasts. Those are piercings on the Minotaurs. A rune is a magical seal, so I didn't see the connection, that's why I asked. I figured maybe the quest said something else that would shed light on it.

[EliteMongoose]

All I know is, minotaurs are annoying because they stand between me and griffon farming.

[Lazarus Dio]

Well like, it says that he used runes to control the beasts.


Good point. However, I would point out that the exact wording is "Runes of Power". It could be that the runes were not used to controll the Minotaur but rather to augment them.

[Sol Rael]

In relation to the possibility of the rings being indicative of Lord Kree's possible domination of the minotaurs, forest minotaurs also bear the rings. It is possible that his army was that far reaching, but there's little evidence for such a conclusion.

[Quintus Antonius]

In relation to the possibility of the rings being indicative of Lord Kree's possible domination of the minotaurs, forest minotaurs also bear the rings. It is possible that his army was that far reaching, but there's little evidence for such a conclusion.

Yes, and we also don't know that the Minotaurs are the beasts of burden, so to say.

[Sol Rael]

True. Especially when considering how shallow the wounds containing the rings are. If they were meant to act in some manner of restraint or control, it would make more sense to place it at least deeper, so the rings would loop about the sternum, making it more dangerous for the minotaur to simply rip out.
Due to the fact I'm at work, I'm unable to check this, but I'll post it all the same in case someone can within the next 8 hours: are there are instances where there are more than two rings? Or where the ring placement isn't with the smaller ring closer to the head than the larger? Perhaps on one of the minotaur bosses?

[Arkhan The Black]

Couldn’t it just have been tags of ownership in the old days but has lost that meaning now and the Minotaur’s uses them to show which tribe they belong to?

Or maybe the Centaurs of the desert control them and therefore pierce them as a sign of ownership?

[Cyberman]

Long ago, those lands were ruled by the Sorcerer Lord Kree, who controlled an army of beasts, their flesh inscribed with runes of power that only he understood.

If I remember right, we were supposed to bring back the hide of that beast, right?

So these "runes of power" might have been brandings(brand marks?).


True. Especially when considering how shallow the wounds containing the rings are. If they were meant to act in some manner of restraint or control, it would make more sense to place it at least deeper, so the rings would loop about the sternum, making it more dangerous for the minotaur to simply rip out.


Couldn’t it just have been tags of ownership in the old days but has lost that meaning now and the Minotaur’s uses them to show which tribe they belong to?

If these rings were a sign of enslavement, the minotaurs might keep them as tradition, while not keeping their actual purpose, as to not accidently hurt themselves.
They may now wear them as a sign of not being enslaved anymore.

(If someone knows the rather shallow cartoon series Transformers(the original, not any of the new shows), there´s been an episode where (in past times) they were slaves too, marked with the symbol of enslavement - which later they wore with pride, to show they´re no slaves anymore.)

[Scott the Green]

Here's a close-up of a desert minotaur, showing the rings.
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/935/gwminotaur2cl.th.jpg (http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gwminotaur2cl.jpg)
From this angle it looks like the rings are embedded in the beast's neck, but I'm not sure if that's not just a camera trick. I took this screenshot during a lag spike, so I couldn't get a better angle on it.

[Lazarus Dio]

I'm not too worried about the shallowness of the piercings. As I said, and alot of people are picking up on, the rings might no longer function as a control for the beasts.



... forest minotaurs also bear the rings. It is possible that his army was that far reaching, but there's little evidence for such a conclusion.


This is the one thing that I wasn't sure of. I agree with Sol Rael that, as of yet, there is no evidence suggesting that the beast army covered that much territory. With this new data at hand I would lean more in the direction that the Minotaurs were not slaves.

This would also suggest a certain level of intelligence on part of the Minotaurs. If the rings were from a human or otherwise intelligent culture, that culture would have had to covered a very large amount of territory.

[teh Monkeys]

It could also mean the devs were lazy and re-used the model.

Oh right, lore forum. sorry. ;)

[Sol Rael]

Thank you, Scott, for the image, as it eliminates my need to go to the desert strictly to track down one of those.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/usk-Darastrix/Guild%20Wars%20contest/gw039.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/usk-Darastrix/Guild%20Wars%20contest/gw042.jpg
These two images are the best shots I have of the Forest Minotaurs and their rings. I find it interesting that the desert's are clean, the seemingly sealed up and set, while the forest's are not only still stained with blood, but area around the rings seem thick with it. Perhaps a different piercing technique, the forests don't heal as fast, the deserts are older and the wound has scarred over?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/usk-Darastrix/Guild%20Wars%20contest/gw041.jpg
On a minor note of interest are these burnt trees. In Talmark, they seem to show up only where the forest minotaurs are, in around Dataku village. The implication seems to be they've burnt the trees down to these husks, so the question then becomes, why? I honestly have no answer at this time.

[Cyberman]

In Talmark, they seem to show up only where the forest minotaurs are, in around Dataku village. The implication seems to be they've burnt the trees down to these husks, so the question then becomes, why? I honestly have no answer at this time.
Perhaps to forge the rings?
They´re probably rather primitive, so perhaps they put iron they "find"(swords, armor ;-) into trees and burn them.

Aren´t there fire imps in this area as well?

[Sol Rael]

There are, but they aren't near the minotaurs. They frequent a different section of the wilderness. In fact, oddly, they seem to congregate about the petrified tree circle with the runes carved into them.
I like the idea of them using the trees for the purpose of forging the rings though.

[Zaxares]

I find the thought of the minotaurs having forged the rings themselves to be very unlikely. Doing so would require not only knowledge of metallurgy, but also the appropriate tools and resources (iron ore, for starters), and we have thus far seen no evidence that minotaurs live anything but a bestial lifestyle, focused on hunting and survival. If the minotaurs DID have the skills to forge rings and the like, why don't they ever create other tools for themselves?

I am much more inclined to believe that the rings are leftover from a time when the minotaurs were slaves or otherwise servants of a greater power that was since defeated. We have no indication of how long minotaurs live, after all. If they were a magically created race, they could very well have lifespans far exceeding natural creatures (or they could even be immortal).

Regarding the burnt out husks of trees around the world, I believe them to be the results of those dastardly fire/inferno/lava imps at work. Nasty creatures... :tongue:

[Barinthus]

Yeah those rings are found on all minotaurs of any type.

[Zaxares]

Yeah those rings are found on all minotaurs of any type.

In other words... lazy Anet artists who neglected to change details apart from the skin between different monster models. :wink:

I haven't been to the UW/FoW before, but I heard that Aataxes use the same model as minotaurs? Do the aataxes have the rings as well?

[Cyberman]

I find the thought of the minotaurs having forged the rings themselves to be very unlikely. Doing so would require not only knowledge of metallurgy, but also the appropriate tools and resources (iron ore, for starters), and we have thus far seen no evidence that minotaurs live anything but a bestial lifestyle, focused on hunting and survival.
Iron ore is not needed when you have iron itself.
They could salvage swords and armor pieces of adventurers.

Metallurgy is not required - it suffices to know that iron melts and can be formed when its hot.
They might have waited until the iron cooled down, and then formed the rings by pounding the metal into shape.

If these rings don´t surve a purpose aside from being there, then they can be made of inferior metal.

[teh Monkeys]

Honestly guys, sometimes you read just a little bit too much into this stuff.

[Arkhan The Black]

Honestly guys, sometimes you read just a little bit too much into this stuff.

Perhaps...

But let us speculate.

[Lazarus Dio]

Honestly guys, sometimes you read just a little bit too much into this stuff.


That should be this whole forum's official motto. :grin:

[Littleming]

The thing about these rings being a sign of slavery is that they are sunken into the flesh. If the Minotaurs were "chained" to something, all they'd have to do it pull hard enough and they are free. Sure it's painful, but when you've lived in slavery, a small flesh wound isn't that bad.

Another thing that suggests these aren't slave rings is that they are on the chest, giving the Minotaur full use of its arms and, more importantly, its vicious head. I don't know about you, but I'd hate to be the person that has to get in there and put a chain between a raging pair of fists and a goring head.

I believe the Minotaurs, like suggested, have a primative form of culture. Perhaps their intelligence is only that of say a Neanderthal. We know they had a very, very rudimentary form of social organization, and we see this in the way the Minotaurs organize themselves into groups.

Perhaps if we can get a better picture of the object, we'd be able to determine what exactly it is.

Unless of course its placed just so, if you do break free it severs a vital artery or something and you bleed to death o.O

[Barinthus]

Sounds like a new warrior skill - Tear Stuff Out - where you grab onto anything attached to a mob's body and rip it out ;)

[Quintus Antonius]

Perhaps...

But let us speculate.

Well, remember, we need to have some degree of scientific method involved in the speculation. There is a difference between making something up, and backing it up with evidence.

The only evidence we have right now is that all Minotaurs, regardless of region, have a dual ring piercing.

We also know that, at some point in time, there was a person who had a race of beastly slaves.

Anything other than that, which cannot be backed with evidence, is only a hypothesis, not a theory.

It's fine to speculate on the connection between those two things, but what needs to be done is solid research on the topic. Your speculations could very well be right.

Still, I would disagree with teh Monkeys on this one, I don't feel it is looking to deep into anything. It is just a bit of harmless lore chat, after all, that's what this forum was placed here for. Might as well use it.

Don't become disheartened just because we haven't found a solid connection. However, we also need someone to get out into the Desert and see if there are any other creatures that might have served as the slaves in question. Perhaps the Centaur races for instance.

[Zaxares]

Iron ore is not needed when you have iron itself.
They could salvage swords and armor pieces of adventurers.

Metallurgy is not required - it suffices to know that iron melts and can be formed when its hot.
They might have waited until the iron cooled down, and then formed the rings by pounding the metal into shape.

If these rings don´t surve a purpose aside from being there, then they can be made of inferior metal.

The understanding that metal melts at high temperatures and that it can be worked into another form is an understanding of metallurgy at it's most basic form. :wink: My point is that we have not seen any evidence that minotaurs are aware of this and that they have the knowledge and capability to make iron tools and objects for themselves.

Yes, it's entirely possible that minotaurs can salvage the metal they needed from the gear of fallen adventurers, but they would still need to know how to work metal in order to turn those metal objects into rings. Otherwise, we would see minotaurs wearing piercings that were just salvaged arrowheads, broken sword blades etc. Also, if the minotaurs WERE salvaging things from their enemies, why haven't we ever seen minotaurs wielding weapons or wearing armor? I find it hard to believe that a race intelligent enough to mark themselves with piercings and to work metal could miss the benefits of wielding weapons (longer attack range) and armor (better defenses).

[Sol Rael]

I haven't been to the UW/FoW before, but I heard that Aataxes use the same model as minotaurs? Do the aataxes have the rings as well?
I'd thought of that myself so I went and checked. Aatxes are free of adornments of any kind.

[Quintus Antonius]

The understanding that metal melts at high temperatures and that it can be worked into another form is an understanding of metallurgy at it's most basic form. :wink: My point is that we have not seen any evidence that minotaurs are aware of this and that they have the knowledge and capability to make iron tools and objects for themselves.

Yes, it's entirely possible that minotaurs can salvage the metal they needed from the gear of fallen adventurers, but they would still need to know how to work metal in order to turn those metal objects into rings. Otherwise, we would see minotaurs wearing piercings that were just salvaged arrowheads, broken sword blades etc. Also, if the minotaurs WERE salvaging things from their enemies, why haven't we ever seen minotaurs wielding weapons or wearing armor? I find it hard to believe that a race intelligent enough to mark themselves with piercings and to work metal could miss the benefits of wielding weapons (longer attack range) and armor (better defenses).

Well, are we sure these are actually made of some kind of metal and not bone or a natural growth of the Minotaur?

[Zaxares]

Well, are we sure these are actually made of some kind of metal and not bone or a natural growth of the Minotaur?

That's a very interesting new line of thought. Could it be that the Sorcerer Lord Kree specifically bred his minotaurs to HAVE those ring-like protrusions for some now-unknown reason? If so, those early minotaurs would have passed on the trait to all their descendants, resulting in confusion for today's researchers. :grin:

[theEnhance]

In regards to the whole Lord Kree thing,

How long ago is "long ago"? If it were centuries ago, wouldn't those who were enslaved have died out by now?
Then again, minotaurs probably just have a long life, or as stated with reference to Transformers, it has become a form of tradition to help them remember their time of slavery.

Just thought I'd raise this point.

[Cyberman]

The understanding that metal melts at high temperatures and that it can be worked into another form is an understanding of metallurgy at it's most basic form.
Well, yes. It´s primitive knowledge, though, IMO.


My point is that we have not seen any evidence that minotaurs are aware of this and that they have the knowledge and capability to make iron tools and objects for themselves.
True.


they would still need to know how to work metal in order to turn those metal objects into rings.
I don´t really think it´s hard to know that. Hot iron can be "soft", so they might just form it.
Or perhaps they still have the moulds for the rings, IF they were slaves once.

Of course, this is all just guessing. We´d have to find more information first - and I doubt it´s there at all.
Perhaps in later chapters, we´ll return to Tyria(continent)...

[Quintus Antonius]

That's a very interesting new line of thought. Could it be that the Sorcerer Lord Kree specifically bred his minotaurs to HAVE those ring-like protrusions for some now-unknown reason? If so, those early minotaurs would have passed on the trait to all their descendants, resulting in confusion for today's researchers. :grin:

I'd like to point out again that we do not know for sure that Lord Kree's beast slaves were the Minotaurs, we have no evidence supporting this claim, and it is a big jump to conclude they are or were enslaved due to a ring-like chest protrusion.

We need more evidence that can point us in the right direction, whether that proves or disproves this hypothesis, is yet to be determined. Still, I wish you the best of luck in trying to unravel the mysteries of both Lord Kree and the Minotaur chest ring; just be open to the possiblity that the mysteries are not interconnected.

[Lazarus Dio]

just be open to the possiblity that the mysteries are not interconnected.


I agree with Quintus. Like he said, all we know so far is that the army was described as being composed of "beasts". That could mean alot of things in the world of Tyria.

[Barinthus]

While I laid in exhaustion next to the cool waters of Ammon Oasis I noticed a female necromancer standing few feet away looking into the reflection. Despite the suppressive heat, she did not even have a bead of sweat on her lovely yet chilling skin. Somehow I managed to engage her into a conversation and she told me a tale I wanted to share with you.

She told me how she met Cembrian a ghost elementalist who told her about Lord Kree's army.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1877/kreequestclose5ek.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreequestclose5ek.jpg)

The ghost promised to exchange his elementalist secrets if she was to seek out one of minotaurs that still have some remnant of ancient power within its hide. Eager to unlock more arcane knowledge for her dark purposes, she set off into the area of the Desert known as the Prophet's Path to find this minotaur.

She encountered many minotaurs just like this:

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9972/desertminotaur1iw.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=desertminotaur1iw.jpg)

Countless of them were drained of their life energy and left behind dead as she searched on.

Eventually she found the minotaur she was searching. Based on her description I was able to elaborate a realistic depiction of that particular beast:

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/9196/kreeminotaur8xu.th.jpg (http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreeminotaur8xu.jpg)

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/558/kreeminotaur20yj.th.jpg (http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreeminotaur20yj.jpg)


Damn good ain't I?

Anyway she couldn't detect anything different between normal minotaurs and this one other than the fact that its entire body seems to shimmer in a golden aura.

[Barinthus]

After slaying the beast, she took off its hide. Fortunately for me, she took time to compare the kree minotaur hide to a normal minotaur hide.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/9581/hides4dn.th.jpg (http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hides4dn.jpg)

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2027/hides28ni.th.jpg (http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hides28ni.jpg)

As you can see, the kree minotaur hide is larger and darker in color. Cembrian said Lord Kree's army of what we assume to be minotaurs had their hides marked with runes. I have speculated that those runes basically infused power of some sort into those minotaurs he enslaved. Some minotaurs as they bred somehow were able to pass this power to their offsprings (which didn't need runes to have the power infused within them). But after the disappearance of Lord Kree, his hold over minotaurs somehow faded so the runic power just worn off throughout generations of free minotaurs until there are perhaps only handful of minotaurs with just glimmer of anicent power left.

When she gave the hide back to Cembrian only thing the ghost had to say was:

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4745/kreequestclose26rd.th.jpg (http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kreequestclose26rd.jpg)

[Ranger Bob]

My say in that Minotuars as slaves to the Summit is very very Perplexing it is.. OK.. my Theory is That Some of u may know of the Quest: The elementalist Path? U gotta kill the Kree Minotaur? Well... Perhaps, The minotaurs Walked on 2 legs and its fist weren't always kurled... Anyways, Maybe yes its true that minotaurs were once slaves to the Summit.. koz i did research and the minotaurs in the shiverpeaks and the ones in Crystal Desert did have that "chain" thing around their chests. Why? I think its because they were forced to. <DUH!!??> but how? First of, I believe this species of Minotaurs aren;t your typical bloodthirsty, Intestines eating mintoaurs.. i think.. they were onced Kultured Beings, Stood upright and had relations with perhaps.. with... Centaurs.. Yes.. Centaurs. But when the Summit first appeared, They wanted kontrol in everything. The minotaurs at First resisted by making a stand between the stone summit in one last epic battle but failed and were imprisoned as slaves. Then one day, a MInotaur named Kree decided to revolt and made a final attempt to escape with HIS tribe and others who wish to follow. So... The minotaurs fled.. Fled to the southern shiverpeaks But Kree decided to go to Kryta as The summit will katch up to the others in a matter of time but the other tribe leaders wouldn't listen fled into the south and sp Kree led the rest somewhere near SANCTUM CAY where they might find refuge with the peaceful dwarves or krytan inhabitants, there they build many escape ships in PORT SLEDGE and the PORT at SANCTUM CAY, hoping to run to the desert and start anew while the dwarves hold back the summit during their escape. ANd as well as u know, PORT SLEDGE koulnd't have survived the whole Summit's Brute strength and sheer numbers. so onli the minotaurs who Fled by SANCTUM CAY kould have survived. From there on, the minotaurs probably made a pact not to be merciful... even to us.

[Quintus Antonius]

My say in that Minotuars as slaves to the Summit is very very Perplexing it is.. OK.. my Theory is That Some of u may know of the Quest: The elementalist Path? U gotta kill the Kree Minotaur? Well... Perhaps, The minotaurs Walked on 2 legs and its fist weren't always kurled... Anyways, Maybe yes its true that minotaurs were once slaves to the Summit.. koz i did research and the minotaurs in the shiverpeaks and the ones in Crystal Desert did have that "chain" thing around their chests. Why? I think its because they were forced to. <DUH!!??> but how? First of, I believe this species of Minotaurs aren;t your typical bloodthirsty, Intestines eating mintoaurs.. i think.. they were onced Kultured Beings, Stood upright and had relations with perhaps.. with... Centaurs.. Yes.. Centaurs. But when the Summit first appeared, They wanted kontrol in everything. The minotaurs at First resisted by making a stand between the stone summit in one last epic battle but failed and were imprisoned as slaves. Then one day, a MInotaur named Kree decided to revolt and made a final attempt to escape with HIS tribe and others who wish to follow. So... The minotaurs fled.. Fled to the southern shiverpeaks But Kree decided to go to Kryta as The summit will katch up to the others in a matter of time but the other tribe leaders wouldn't listen fled into the south and sp Kree led the rest somewhere near SANCTUM CAY where they might find refuge with the peaceful dwarves or krytan inhabitants, there they build many escape ships in PORT SLEDGE and the PORT at SANCTUM CAY, hoping to run to the desert and start anew while the dwarves hold back the summit during their escape. ANd as well as u know, PORT SLEDGE koulnd't have survived the whole Summit's Brute strength and sheer numbers. so onli the minotaurs who Fled by SANCTUM CAY kould have survived. From there on, the minotaurs probably made a pact not to be merciful... even to us.

Do you have any evidence, at all, to support anything you just said other than pure speculation? If you have some supporting facts, testable and observable proof, to submit, feel free to do so, but we can't just assume things based on...well...I'm not sure what you are basing it on.

****

Barinthus: Good job with the Minotaurs. I think we are able to distinguish between Kree Minotaurs (the ones that are the descendants of his slaves) and the regular minotaurs, which are still probably descendants but aren't necessarily charged with his magics anymore.

[Ranger Bob]

Hmm.. gee Anotonius..hmm.. with all du respect... thanx on your opion in this.. this led to another speculation that the the summit or krytans kould have also attacked in sanctum cay? i mean.. wat with all the wreckage down in the sea? kould there be more? < just a food for thought.> <no disrespect allowed.>

[Quintus Antonius]

Hmm.. gee Anotonius..hmm.. with all du respect... thanx on your opion in this.. this led to another speculation that the the summit or krytans kould have also attacked in sanctum cay? i mean.. wat with all the wreckage down in the sea? kould there be more? < just a food for thought.> <no disrespect allowed.>

Where are you refering to exactly? A good way to get a point across clearly is to use screenshots, that way, we don't have to guess. So, if you can post a few screens of the area in question, we can all see your point-of-view clearly.

[Ranger Bob]

hmm.. well.. thanx for the tip.. actually.. i did some screening. That might shed some light. I was studying the environment that minotaurs like to be in.. < asides from mission places.> They kinda like to be in places where they kan run up and down hills. They appear in areas near ice tooth cave where they may roam? perhaps that kould be where they lived? i did snoop around the iron horse mines. that gave me a whole new koncept on the minotaurs. well......... sounds a bit far-fetched, but, i think the iron horse mines used to be a fortress for the minotaurs. why do isay this? koz i find that we don't ind much spiky bridge besides in bolis pass, frost gate missions and iron horse mines? but do not forget about sorrow furnace if i remembered korrectly, there were barely any spiky bridges. i will get screen shots of that.. <sorry.> BUt for now.. all i kan add to my theory is about the spiky bridges and that the stone summit just stole it from the minotaurs.
ok.. im having trouble adding the images.. kan u antonious teach me?/ haha.. so that i kan upload the pics... < im so sorry.>

[Quintus Antonius]

hmm.. well.. thanx for the tip.. actually.. i did some screening. That might shed some light. I was studying the environment that minotaurs like to be in.. < asides from mission places.> They kinda like to be in places where they kan run up and down hills. They appear in areas near ice tooth cave where they may roam? perhaps that kould be where they lived? i did snoop around the iron horse mines. that gave me a whole new koncept on the minotaurs. well......... sounds a bit far-fetched, but, i think the iron horse mines used to be a fortress for the minotaurs. why do isay this? koz i find that we don't ind much spiky bridge besides in bolis pass, frost gate missions and iron horse mines? but do not forget about sorrow furnace if i remembered korrectly, there were barely any spiky bridges. i will get screen shots of that.. <sorry.> BUt for now.. all i kan add to my theory is about the spiky bridges and that the stone summit just stole it from the minotaurs.
ok.. im having trouble adding the images.. kan u antonious teach me?/ haha.. so that i kan upload the pics... < im so sorry.>

Yes, I'd be happy to teach you. Go to http://imageshack.us and simply upload the picture. To do this, select the box that allows you to browse files from your computer, then hit the "browse" button. After the desired file has been selected, hit "upload". It will upload the image, and give you a series of URLs to post on the forums. Use the URL that has the [img] and [url] tags on front of it. Copy that, and paste it in a post here on the forums. Remember, you can only have a max of FOUR graphics per post, which includes smilies and pictures.

[Scott the Green]

Use the URL that has the [img] and [url] tags on front of it.
That's "Thumbnail for forums #1", I believe.

The other one will result in a text link to the image.

[Ranger Bob]

hmmm.. ok.. well... about my last post when i said that dwarves kouldn't possibly built those spiky bridges?

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/199/screen113tm.th.png (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen113tm.png)
so anyways... i was in iron horse mines with henchies.. i unno if u guys kould see.. but, the nuts and bolts are too big for the'r stubby hands.. it kant be the beastmastres' beasts koz they aint got thumbs.. < thank u evolution!> and also, the bridge's structure is too komplex just for dwarves. Must be some the minotaurs that built those bridges.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/7123/screen25uk.th.png (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen25uk.png)
Ok.. in this picture.. focus on the ice golems and summit.. hmm.. i think we all know that the ice golems and summit work together.. but we remember about the SEIGE ice golems... why do the summit needed the seige ice golems in the first place? As we've all seen in sorrow's furnace, i think that there were 2 capitals of the minotaurs.. < i will get more pics of sorrow furnace and its inhabitants soon... sorry.> Well.. perhaps that the summit needed the seige golems to break through the defenses of the minotaurs.

well.. so far thats all the data i kould kollect be4 being overrunned by ice golems and summit axes and krushers.... haha.

hmm.. wat are ur opions now?/ i need more say in this.

[Quintus Antonius]

hmmm.. ok.. well... about my last post when i said that dwarves kouldn't possibly built those spiky bridges?

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/199/screen113tm.th.png (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen113tm.png)
so anyways... i was in iron horse mines with henchies.. i unno if u guys kould see.. but, the nuts and bolts are too big for the'r stubby hands.. it kant be the beastmastres' beasts koz they aint got thumbs.. < thank u evolution!> and also, the bridge's structure is too komplex just for dwarves. Must be some the minotaurs that built those bridges.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/7123/screen25uk.th.png (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen25uk.png)
Ok.. in this picture.. focus on the ice golems and summit.. hmm.. i think we all know that the ice golems and summit work together.. but we remember about the SEIGE ice golems... why do the summit needed the seige ice golems in the first place? As we've all seen in sorrow's furnace, i think that there were 2 capitals of the minotaurs.. < i will get more pics of sorrow furnace and its inhabitants soon... sorry.> Well.. perhaps that the summit needed the seige golems to break through the defenses of the minotaurs.

well.. so far thats all the data i kould kollect be4 being overrunned by ice golems and summit axes and krushers.... haha.

hmm.. wat are ur opions now?/ i need more say in this.

I think you need an awful lot of supporting evidence for this kind of hypothesis. A lot of what you are saying is based on nothing more than your own opinions or personal beliefs.

It is possible that Dwarves built those bridges, as Dwarves, in legend, are amazing metal workers, and siege engineers. You assume that, because something is big, it must have been someone else that built it. However, the Egyptians moved blocks the size of houses into place to build the pyramids, and, beyond unsupported conspricy theories, there is nothing to indicate they didn't. Through principles of torque, leverage, and friction, it is completely possible for Dwarves, who possess, once again, according to legend, high intelliects, to build things many times greater than they are in physical stature. We can see in Droknar's Forge, and in Sorrow's Furnace, that they use various swivelling cranes, as well as hydropower. The Dwarves are very ingeniusous, I fully believe they are capable of building such structures. Also, the Stone Summit emply slaves. Jobs they could handle or invent something to handle, they are able to use their Beastmasters and slaves to do.

Just because they are small, does not mean they are incapable. I personally don't see evidence that minotaurs have intelligence or culture at all. If anything, they are just slaves wherever they go.

[Zaxares]

In the later missions, you frequently see 'Enslaved Giants' accompanying the Stone Summit, as well as 'Enslaved Ettins'. If the dwarves couldn't work those gears and stuff themselves, there's no reason why their slaves couldn't do so.

[Dunnoir]

firstly, I would like to ask Ranger Bob why you find it nessessary to use the letter K in place of the letter C? it doesnt help when reading your posts, and neither do the randomness of your capital letters, but i suppose its not my place to question your grammer. I dont intend on causing an argument, I just think that good grammer benefits everyone.

secondly, if the minotaurs could make huge steel bridges, even if they were forced to, wouldnt they use this aquired skill to forge themselves some armour or weapons, or maybe even bridges to cross the canyons and valleys in the desert or the jungle?

[Xunlai Agent]

I personally believe that Minotaurs are just a primitve species and nothing really more than that. Don't want to spoil anything for anyone or disagree but that's what I think is implied. People are reading way too much into this isssue (minotaurs being a tribe of enslaved & enchanted humans? uhm nope)

~Xunlai Agent~

[Quintus Antonius]

I personally believe that Minotaurs are just a primitve species and nothing really more than that. Don't want to spoil anything for anyone or disagree but that's what I think is implied. People are reading way too much into this isssue (minotaurs being a tribe of enslaved & enchanted humans? uhm nope)

~Xunlai Agent~

I agree. Although, we do know for a fact, that the Minotaurs, at least the Kree Minotaurs, were once enslaved to a wizard in the Desert named Lord Kree.

Anything else, without proper evidence, is pure speculation.

[Ranger Bob]

I realli agree with wat dunnoir explained.. perhaps the minotaurs did not made any armors koz they looked down on the dwarves significantly. That kould perhaps be another factor to their downfall. Hmmm... i would really wanna find out more about their fists...... I mean.. i have no pics now.. < i will upload soon.. sorry.> but i it seems that perhaps they made gauntlets to defend themselves?

[Sol Rael]

This is just a couple points. In relation to the possibility of the rings being something of bone, or possibly a natural structure, I'd have to disagree. They reflect light as metal and they swing loosely like a hoop earring. While I'm still no further to explaining why, or even how, the rings came to be there, I am positive they are metallic adornments.
As for the minotaurs having created the structures in the Shiverpeaks, I'd have to see a great deal of evidence before I'd believe that. While I did say before that I liked the idea of them using the scorched Krytan trees as a smelting utility, that was not meant to convey I wholeheartedly agreed with it. As a person, I found the idea entertaining and enjoyable. As a researcher, there's simply not enough evidence to support such a claim. It's better to commit a type-2 error, than a type-1, in my experience. As well, there's even less evidence of minotaur metal working than in Kryta. We know from Sorrow's Furnace the Stone Summit has enslaved Fire Djinn's, providing them with what amounts to a nigh-infinite furnace of horrible intensity. They've obvious talents as metal workers, based on the quantity, and quality, of complicated machinery in the Furnace and surrounding mountains. Not to mention their equipment and the materials they keep on their slaves. The Summit are clearly adept at crafting various ores. The minotaur's only apparent use of metal are the rings in their torso, and there is still conjecture about that.
And Bob, as for their hands, they're unadorned. Minotaurs have taken to pulverizing the weary traveller through brute strength and the rather wicked horns atop their head. The object hurtling at your torso at roughly 200 mph is not a powerful gauntlet, just a hefty mass of meat and bone with a great deal of force behind it.

[Ranger Bob]

Hmm.. i do c eye to eye withu Sol Rael.. i will try to get evidence.. ad perhaps the work in kryta did have some evidence that the minotaurs actually fled into the desert. <pics comin soon.>

[Quintus Antonius]

This is just a couple points. In relation to the possibility of the rings being something of bone, or possibly a natural structure, I'd have to disagree. They reflect light as metal and they swing loosely like a hoop earring. While I'm still no further to explaining why, or even how, the rings came to be there, I am positive they are metallic adornments.
As for the minotaurs having created the structures in the Shiverpeaks, I'd have to see a great deal of evidence before I'd believe that. While I did say before that I liked the idea of them using the scorched Krytan trees as a smelting utility, that was not meant to convey I wholeheartedly agreed with it. As a person, I found the idea entertaining and enjoyable. As a researcher, there's simply not enough evidence to support such a claim. It's better to commit a type-2 error, than a type-1, in my experience. As well, there's even less evidence of minotaur metal working than in Kryta. We know from Sorrow's Furnace the Stone Summit has enslaved Fire Djinn's, providing them with what amounts to a nigh-infinite furnace of horrible intensity. They've obvious talents as metal workers, based on the quantity, and quality, of complicated machinery in the Furnace and surrounding mountains. Not to mention their equipment and the materials they keep on their slaves. The Summit are clearly adept at crafting various ores. The minotaur's only apparent use of metal are the rings in their torso, and there is still conjecture about that.
And Bob, as for their hands, they're unadorned. Minotaurs have taken to pulverizing the weary traveller through brute strength and the rather wicked horns atop their head. The object hurtling at your torso at roughly 200 mph is not a powerful gauntlet, just a hefty mass of meat and bone with a great deal of force behind it.

Well said Sol. I agree completely with what you just said. I think that there is enough evidence to properly prove the Stone Summit are behind their own workings, and not a third party.

[Ranger Bob]

Well.. i know when im proven wrong.. looks like there were alot of factors to be noted of. Hmm.. But kome to think of it, It's perplexing about the Minotaur's heritage in the beginning how did they obtained that ring like structure... Well.. I kinda was thinkin about the Summit Beastmasters.. If my eyes still serve, i do recall seeing a simliar pattern of enslavement. < i will take in note of that soon. :P>

But another query is in the "enslavement stones we find in sorrow's Furnace. Kould that have anything to do with the minotaurs' ring chain?

[Barinthus]

I did my best to study enslaved dredges in SF and was not able to find any physical signs of being bound. Only clues I had were those stones you mentioned and some dredges had glowing caged hats on their heads.

Remember in one of SF quests (Galen I believe) we had to be enslaved ourselves? It seems like some kind of spell or something.

[Ranger Bob]

Ok... Barinthus. Well said. Hmm... my hypothesis is that the stones have a "mind-kontrol" kinda effect.. perhaps that glowy thing, was the stone. The summit used it to enslave with unquestionable loyalty to only the Summit. But if the Stone summit was able to use it on the dredges, it must've been used on minotaurs for probably...... a Failed experiment Gone wrong? Maybe there used to be prototype stone? <lol.> But one mystery still remains... how dd the minotaurs escape from the stones? and perhaps... That maybe from one of the earlier threads i've read was that probably minoaturs did reach the desert thru building ships to kryta.. but also.. maybe they found a passage thru the Ascalon mountains on the south side?

<opinions?>

[Dunnoir]

to be fair I find it hard to believe that the summit ever enslaved the minotaurs. I mean the animals the beastmasters ride on are huge, and can knock everyone around them down with one stomp. so how could every minotaur in enslavement escape, and not the beastmaster creatures?

I also doubt that the minotaurs decided to go to the desert, simply because its a desert: a barren wasteland filled with landmarks of failed civilisations who tryed to set up home there. why would anything willingly go there? unless the minotaurs understand the concept of acessention and want to do so, but that might be a different matter altogether.

[Ranger Bob]

hmm.. like i said in my previous quote...... "prototype".. they probably knew trying it on the other BEAST that kould take'em out was too dangerous.. so they had to try it with something LESS... dangerous.. So i guess.. after the failed attempt, the Summit decided to take the "better" approach in enslavement... which is.. CHAINS AND LOTS OF OTHER CHEAP useless stuff!

Hmm.. and about the ones in the desert, perhaps they've never seen the desert be4... So....... They probably just went there to looks for a new life? But.. one thing we do know.. they did learnt how to adapt and adjust to the harsh new konditions.. now, without their fluffy hide, now they have hard armor-like scales.

<opinions?>

[Xunlai Agent]

Not seeing the summit minotaur connection at all. I still stick with the point of the ring being jewelry or maybe even a sign of maturity. A sort of coming of age ceremony where you have a ring rammed into your hide or possibly a symbol of belonging to a certain group within the minotaur society itself. Doubt we will ever get a clear answer by just looking at the game itself...

I do not believe that the normal minotaurs are connected to the Kree Minotaurs but of course I cannot be sure. Maybe Kree Minotaurs are like super alpha males? :laugh:

Some Additional Info:

Minotaurs in Guild Wars are large bulls with a slight humanoid touch. They have the head, torso and hind-quarters of a bull but with two large human arms. They run on their hands and legs like oxen (with clinched fists) and they occasionally stand on their hind legs and walk around.

Minotaurs are brutally strong, very fast and enjoy running like nothing else. Their patrols will be seen dashing across the landscape with great speed. In an area infested with minotaurs, players would do well to exmine their patrols quickly and keep an eye on their radar as they can blindside a party easily. All minotaurs in the game same to suffer from limited intelligence as they take a few moments to start attcking after they have been hit. Sometimes a player will attack them and they will run on by, then stop, turn and come back to retaliate.

All minotaurs in the game presently are warriors.

Note: Originally, Minotaurs are mythical creatures from Greek Mythology

[Ranger Nietzsche]

My opinion is that all minotaurs were created by Lord Kree, and roamed across the continent. It is certainly possible for one reason: The Ranger Job quest in the desert refers to an old Mage who created the Storm Rider type monsters, which are found in ascalon, magumma, the ring of fire, and the desert.

If its possible for this species to roam across tyria, certainly the minotaurs can as well.


And what is with these powerful mages spawning armies...titans, ancient eyes, undead hordes, minotaurs, elementals, .... when will they just realize that they can kill everyone with a simple Meteorga III(which my FF loving friends tell me must be the spellt hat caused the searing :P) ill get screenies when i can

[edit]
screen
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/586/stormriders8qq.th.png (http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stormriders8qq.png)

[Quintus Antonius]

My opinion is that all minotaurs were created by Lord Kree, and roamed across the continent. It is certainly possible for one reason: The Ranger Job quest in the desert refers to an old Mage who created the Storm Rider type monsters, which are found in ascalon, magumma, the ring of fire, and the desert.

If its possible for this species to roam across tyria, certainly the minotaurs can as well.


And what is with these powerful mages spawning armies...titans, ancient eyes, undead hordes, minotaurs, elementals, .... when will they just realize that they can kill everyone with a simple Meteorga III(which my FF loving friends tell me must be the spellt hat caused the searing :P) ill get screenies when i can

[edit]
screen
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/586/stormriders8qq.th.png (http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stormriders8qq.png)

It seems there is a whole lost period of super mages in Tyria that seemed to have a past time of creating weird creatures and setting them loose on the land. I'd love to find out more about that, as it is most likely the period that gave rise to the Mursaat and other magical senient creatures we see today.

[absolute zero]

I believe that the most plausible theory, at the moment, is that the rings are a cultural symbol which may represent coming to age or other social position.

One thing that may have some symbolic meaning is that one ring appears to be larger than the other ring. This could mean it was done at a different time, or could signify something else.

I do not believe that the minotaurs were enslaved by the stone summit. This is becasue there are some minotaurs scattered across the northern shiverpeaks who are not found enslaved by/ too near to the stone summit. Also if these were escaped minotaurs then the stone summit could capture them easily. Another large problem i have for this theory is that the Stone summit are only several centuries (at most) old. All species of minotaurs have different fur colours and it would be impossible for Minotaurs to have evlolved camoflauging fur in such a short space of time.

And here is an image just to confirm that Shiverpeak Minos have the dual rings as well.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6662/minorings5um.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minorings5um.jpg)

[Quintus Antonius]

It may also be that a group of powerful sorcerer's, each inhabiting a different climatological region, all created minotaurs to match that region. Notice the difference in horn pattern for instance.

We know the Desert minotaurs are decendants of the Kree minotaurs, so it may be that other sorcerer's followed suit and created other types of minotaurs.

I do agree with you though, Absolute Zero, there is just not enough time for that kind of adaptation to occur naturally.