Rt/N Explosive Minionmancer

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

There has been a lot of discussion on this build (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=384667) as originally presented by Geishi. I figured it would be useful if a fully-fleshed out build was posted. So without further ado.

Explosive Minionmancer
Ritualist/Necromancer

Attributes:
Spawning: 12 [+3+1]=16
Death Magic: 12
Restoration: 6 [+1]=7

Skills:
Animate Bone Minions: Exploit nearest corpse to animate two level 10 Bone Minions. [25/3/5]
Death Nova: For 30 seconds, if target ally dies, Death Nova deals 85 damage and are Poisoned for 15 seconds. [5/2/-]
Blood of the Master: Sacrifice 10% max health. All adjacent undead allies are healed for 99. [10/1/5]
Verata's Sacrifice: Sacrifice 15% max health. For 18 seconds, all undead allies gain 10 health regeneration. All conditions are removed from those allies and transferred to you. [10/2/30]
Boon of Creation: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, you gain 53 Health and 8 Energy. [10/2/45]
Explosive Growth: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, up to 5 foes near that creature are struck for 68 lightning damage. [15/2/45]
Attuned Was Songkai [e]: Hold Songkai's ashes for up to 45 seconds. While you hold her ashes, your spells cost 53% less Energy to cast. [10/2/60]
Flesh of My Flesh: Lose half of your Health. Resurrect target ally with your current Health and 12% Energy. [5/5/-]

Synopsis:
Attuned was Songkai will reduce the cost of Animate Bone Minions to 12 energy. Each of your minions will be animated with 459 hp. This is 19 more hp than a level 18 bone horror. Furthermore, upon casting Animate Bone Minions, you will deal 136 damage to 5 nearby targets from Explosive Growth. Also you'll gain 16 energy and 106 hp from Boon of Creation.

That means that with each casting of Animate Bone Minions, you will gain 4 energy, 106 hp, deal 136 damage to adjacent foes, and if you forgot, animate two minions with more life than a level 18 bone horror.

Comments?

[Ectos N Shards]

But you still have 3 regen and no soul reap, I assume the 8 energy gained is enough?

[tarutaru]

Um...YEAH!
Did you read the whole post? He's gaining a profit of 4 energy every time he casts Animate Bone Minions! Genius!

[dudeimoncoke]

very nice build. I will def try it out during factions

[Geishe]

Nice Build Artemis! Thanks for the indepth synopsis. There is one thing that Im curious about though... I do not think you need Blood of the Master or possibly even Verata's Sac.

If you're going to use those two skills, it'll mean you want to make a minion army, so Death Nova will only be used when they're about to die. Yes, the Minions will have higher health, but the damage output will be mediocre. If indeed you are looking to create a Rit/MM, then I suggest you add in Bone Horror. A smaller explosion damage, but can continue the cycle when your Minions get interrupted. As well, Horrors cost less energy with your SongKai, so its pretty much a win-win situation. Its SO annoying when you're interrupted, or another necro-monster out races you to the corpse!

I think it'll be interesting to just use the minions for minion-bombing, I'm sure it'll cause greater fatalities faster, producing more corpses to cause more explosions. So in turn, you can take out the two minion spells to add two more damaging spells. Deathly Swarm to start the corpses? Taste of Death to heal and bomb? The options are limitless as long as you stick with minion bombing.

Its great to have you explore this build! Im sure I can try to build a minion bombing Rit/N, and when faction comes out, we can test together to create the uber build!

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Nice Build Artemis! Thanks for the indepth synopsis. There is one thing that Im curious about though... I do not think you need Blood of the Master or possibly even Verata's Sac.

If you're going to use those two skills, it'll mean you want to make a minion army, so Death Nova will only be used when they're about to die. Yes, the Minions will have higher health, but the damage output will be mediocre. If indeed you are looking to create a Rit/MM, then I suggest you add in Bone Horror. A smaller explosion damage, but can continue the cycle when your Minions get interrupted. As well, Horrors cost less energy with your SongKai, so its pretty much a win-win situation. Its SO annoying when you're interrupted, or another necro-monster out races you to the corpse!

I think it'll be interesting to just use the minions for minion-bombing, I'm sure it'll cause greater fatalities faster, producing more corpses to cause more explosions. So in turn, you can take out the two minion spells to add two more damaging spells. Deathly Swarm to start the corpses? Taste of Death to heal and bomb? The options are limitless as long as you stick with minion bombing.

Its great to have you explore this build! Im sure I can try to build a minion bombing Rit/N, and when faction comes out, we can test together to create the uber build!Bone horrors is a definate possibility. Also, you would still gain 1 energy each time you cast Animate Bone Horrors. And yes, it'd be needed to get around interrupts. I would most likely replace Blood of the Master with it. Furthermore, I still want to test Signet of Creation. Someone proposed that you could possibly replenish it constantly without sacrificing corpses due to the 10 sec recharge and 30 second effect. I don't know if that is true, and from any testing with skills like Wastrel's Worry and Aura of the Lich, it doesn't seem to be. But if I could constantly keep Health regen +6, I don't see any need for both Verata's and Blood of the Master.

Furthermore, as mentioned this build does have many variations and possibilities. A strict bomber, or a strict MM meat shield build, or something in between like I posted. The only main crucial skills are:
Boon of Creation
Explosive Growth
Attuned was Songkai
Animate Bone [option]
From there you can do what you like while maintaining excellent energy management, health bonuses, and damage output.

Oh and thanks for the positive feedback. If anyone has any variant builds, please feel free to post them as they will help both me and everyone else.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Here is the revision to the build to incorporate Bone Horrors. Overall, I don't think Blood of the Master will contribute much to the build. Having a secondary Animate Bone spell will raise overall damage, energy, and hp gain. Also it will help prevent interrupt shutdown.

Explosive Minionmancer [version 1.1]
Ritualist/Necromancer

Attributes:
Spawning: 12 [+3+1]=16
Death Magic: 12
Restoration: 6 [+1]=7

Skills:
Animate Bone Minions: Exploit nearest corpse to animate two level 10 Bone Minions. [25/3/5]
Animate Bone Horrors: Exploit nearest corpse to animate a level 14 Bone Horror. [15/3/5]
Death Nova: For 30 seconds, if target ally dies, Death Nova deals 85 damage and are Poisoned for 15 seconds. [5/2/-]
Verata's Sacrifice: Sacrifice 15% max health. For 18 seconds, all undead allies gain 10 health regeneration. All conditions are removed from those allies and transferred to you. [10/2/30]
Boon of Creation: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, you gain 53 Health and 8 Energy. [10/2/45]
Explosive Growth: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, up to 5 foes near that creature are struck for 68 lightning damage. [15/2/45]
Attuned Was Songkai [e]: Hold Songkai's ashes for up to 45 seconds. While you hold her ashes, your spells cost 53% less Energy to cast. [10/2/60]
Flesh of My Flesh: Lose half of your Health. Resurrect target ally with your current Health and 12% Energy. [5/5/-]

Synopsis:
Attuned was Songkai will reduce the cost of Animate Bone Minions to 12 energy. Each of your minions will be animated with 459 hp. This is 19 more hp than a level 18 bone horror. Furthermore, upon casting Animate Bone Minions, you will deal 136 damage to 5 nearby targets from Explosive Growth. Also you'll gain 16 energy and 106 hp from Boon of Creation.

That means that with each casting of Animate Bone Minions, you will gain 4 energy, 106 hp, deal 136 damage to adjacent foes, and if you forgot, animate two minions with more life than a level 18 bone horror.

Attuned was Songkai will reduce the cost of Animate Bone Horrors to 7 energy. Each of your horrors will be animated with 590 hp. This is 140 more hp than a level 18 bone horror. Furthermore, upon casting Animate Bone Minions, you will deal 63 damage to 5 nearby targets from Explosive Growth. Also you'll gain 8 energy and 53 hp from Boon of Creation.

That means that with each casting of Animate Bone Horrors, you will gain 1 energy, 53 hp, deal 63 damage to adjacent foes and if you forgot animate a horror with 140 more hp than a level 18 bone horror.

The simple beauty of this build is that it is a powerful minionmancer with great healing, damage output, and amazing energy management.

Strategy:
Death Nova may currently seem like a weak-link in the skill line up. However, it plays a very crucial role outside of additional minion damage. Death Nova is very important in covering both Boon of Creation and Explosive Growth.

You should always have Boon of Creation and Explosive Growth active and in that order. After casting those, cover it with Death Nova. Whenever Death Nova is stripped, reapply it. At the beginning of combat, use Attuned was Songkai. Once a corpse drops, use Animate Bone Minions. Then simply spam Animate Bone Minions and Bone Horrors whenever corpses are available. If you notice any weak minions or horrors, use Death Nova.

After combat, use Verata's and apply Death Nova to your minions then charge into the next battle and rinse and repeat.

[Geishe]

I think that works perfectly! Your Death Nova will come in handy, but when factions comes out, there might be a substitue for Death Nova. Hmm.. maybe there will be a minion that can work better instead of a Horror. The Vampiric Minion can help heal you (Not that you have any healing concerns, as Boon of Creation covers that). Lets just wait and see if there will be better substitutes for the Death Nova or Bone horror. Everything else looks great!

Not to barge in or anything, but Im going to post a alternative build like you suggested. I also posted it in the original combo topic, but this will be the new thread for ALL the variations on this combo.

~Explosive Bombing Rit/N~

Skills:
Animate Bone Minions: Exploit nearest corpse to animate two level 10 Bone Minions.
Death Nova: For 30 seconds, if target ally dies, Death Nova deals 85 damage and are Poisoned for 15 seconds.
Taste of Death: Steal 340 health from target animated undead ally.
Boon of Creation: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, you gain 53 Health and 8 Energy.
Explosive Growth: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, up to 5 foes near that creature are struck for 68 lightning damage.
Attuned Was Songkai (Elite): Hold Songkai's ashes for up to 45 seconds. While you hold her ashes, your spells cost 53% less Energy to cast.
Restoration: Create a level 4 spirit. When this spirit dies, all allies in the area are resurrected with 5-41% Health and zero Energy. This spirit dies after 30 seconds.
Rupture Soul: Target allied spirit is destroyed. All nearby enemies are struck for 140 lightning damage and become blinded for 12 seconds.

Description:
With three different ways to land Mass AoE damage, this build can be rather flexible. With Attuned of Songkai, all your magic will cost less. You can make up the used energy with Boon of Creation whenever you create Bone minions or create a Restoration Spirit.

Whenever you animate two Bone Minions, you automatically deal 136 damage to 5 nearby foes, and gain 106 HP and 16 energy. After the initial creation process, you can start bombing the minions for 170 damage (85 x 2) and inflicting poison. Rinse and Repeat this process. Taste of Death will also provide more HP in case of emergencies (320 a pop).

You might be asking, where is your Res skill? OMGOD Nub!! Well, in case your whole part SUDDENLY dies in the middle of the fight, you can res them all immediately with Restoration + Rupture Soul. I advise you to cast Restoration whenever you notice a teammates HP starts whittling down, itll ensure you a complete combo when they accidentally die.

You can use your teammates corpse as Minion fodder or you can rupture soul your spirit to immediately res your allies. Rupture Soul also deals 140 Aoe damage and blinds the creatures for 12 seconds, a win-win situation for you!

All of the AoE damage in this build is a single impact, instead of Damage over Time (DoT), meaning it will not disperse the mobs, allowing proper tankage!

Any other Ritualist Hopefuls able to find a variation? Please post it here!

[Ectos N Shards]

Um...YEAH!
Did you read the whole post? He's gaining a profit of 4 energy every time he casts Animate Bone Minions! Genius!
Thanks for being rude?

Still, its not about the health, its about the damage they do.

If your raising Minions, 25 energy to cast, and your getting 16 energy, thats no profit of 4.

[Siru]

Nice build have to say. Looks like it can be very useful in PvE

[Geishe]

Ectos N shards... please read carefully! Attuned Was Songkai makes Animate Bone minions cost ONLY 12 Energy. You gain 16 Energy from Boon of Creation (8 energy/creature). Thats a gain of 4. Hope its clearer now.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Geishe, I would reccomend taking a second Animate Bone Spell. Not only will it drastically help if you're interrupted, it also allows you to constantly spam your Animate spells. Effectively, in my v1.1 build, I increased damage, healing, and energy gain by 50%. Simply because I am capable of making 3 corpses in the same amount of time I was making 2.

Other than that, it seems like a good build. Mostly just a slight variation on the ressurection method.

[RilderView]

Thanks for being rude?

Still, its not about the health, its about the damage they do.

If your raising Minions, 25 energy to cast, and your getting 16 energy, thats no profit of 4.



Attuned Was Songkai (Elite): Hold Songkai's ashes for up to 45 seconds. While you hold her ashes, your spells cost 53% less Energy to cast.



They dont cost 25 energy in this build...

[Doyle]

Attuned was Songkai will reduce the cost of Animate Bone Minions to 12 energy. Each of your minions will be animated with 459 hp. This is 19 more hp than a level 18 bone horror.

I'm confused -- why does a level 10 Bone Minion have more health than a level 18 Bone Horror?

[Geishe]

Geishe, I would reccomend taking a second Animate Bone Spell. Not only will it drastically help if you're interrupted, it also allows you to constantly spam your Animate spells. Effectively, in my v1.1 build, I increased damage, healing, and energy gain by 50%. Simply because I am capable of making 3 corpses in the same amount of time I was making 2.

Yes, I seem to be contradicting myself for suggesting Bone Horror to you, and not using them myself >.<. I guess I will have to stick with Purging Restoration if my minion does get interrupted. I do not think I am able to take out any skills, unless you can help me?


I'm confused -- why does a level 10 Bone Minion have more health than a level 18 Bone Horror?


Because of the Ritualists Primary Attribute; Spawning Power. It allows ALL your created "things" to have higher life (Bone minions, Ranger Spirits, Ritualist Spirits).

[Doyle]

Because of the Ritualists Primary Attribute; Spawning Power. It allows ALL your created "things" to have higher life (Bone minions, Ranger Spirits, Ritualist Spirits).

Ok, I still don't get it. Are you comparing a Ritualist-created Minion to a Necro-created Horror? If so, couldn't your Ritualist create an ever bigger Horror than Minion?

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

gfscott:
Read v1.1 of the Explosive MM. The third paragraph of the synopsis has a description of the difference between A Rt/N Bone Horror and a N/x Bone Horror. The Rt/N Bone Horror will have 150 more hp than the N/x's.

[Doyle]

gfscott:
Read v1.1 of the Explosive MM. The third paragraph of the synopsis has a description of the difference between A Rt/N Bone Horror and a N/x Bone Horror. The Rt/N Bone Horror will have 150 more hp than the N/x's.

Ok, but you're comparing apples and oranges. Why not have your Rt/N animate a Bone Horror?

Edit: LOL - well, I don't think I ever got my point across, but since I started this discussion it seems like the 1.1 build that you just directed me to now incorporates my point. :tongue:

All's well that ends well...

[Exodus Mars]

i think this thread should be merged with the original.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

i think this thread should be merged with the original.I really don't think the Ritualist boards at this point have enough traffic that we need to be worried about the merging of similar threads. But if there are any moderators out there and think this would be a good idea, I have no qualms with it.

[Pardoz]

An interesting variant of the 1.1 build posted here might be to swap Signet of Creation for Verata's - basically shift the focus to a Minion Bomber, except without the micromanagement of the classic MB build, since you just raise your Minions, DN them, fire off Sig of Creation, and 30 seconds later <kaboom>.

Precise tactical application would depend on just how the Signet works - ie. if it affects Minions raised after you used it.

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

An interesting variant of the 1.1 build posted here might be to swap Signet of Creation for Verata's - basically shift the focus to a Minion Bomber, except without the micromanagement of the classic MB build, since you just raise your Minions, DN them, fire off Sig of Creation, and 30 seconds later <kaboom>.

Precise tactical application would depend on just how the Signet works - ie. if it affects Minions raised after you used it.I'm still unsure about Signet of Creation. There's a few reasons I'm avoiding it.

If you activate signet of creation then start applying death nova, but after 20 seconds every enemy is dead. Well you now have 10 seconds to kick yourself until all your minions are wasted.

[Xunlai Agent]

Explosive Minionmancer [version 1.1]
Ritualist/Necromancer

Attributes:
Spawning: 12 [+3+1]=16
Death Magic: 12
Restoration: 6 [+1]=7

Skills:
Animate Bone Minions: Exploit nearest corpse to animate two level 10 Bone Minions. [25/3/5]
Animate Bone Horrors: Exploit nearest corpse to animate a level 14 Bone Horror. [15/3/5]
Death Nova: For 30 seconds, if target ally dies, Death Nova deals 85 damage and are Poisoned for 15 seconds. [5/2/-]
Verata's Sacrifice: Sacrifice 15% max health. For 18 seconds, all undead allies gain 10 health regeneration. All conditions are removed from those allies and transferred to you. [10/2/30]
Boon of Creation: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, you gain 53 Health and 8 Energy. [10/2/45]
Explosive Growth: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, up to 5 foes near that creature are struck for 68 lightning damage. [15/2/45]
Attuned Was Songkai [e]: Hold Songkai's ashes for up to 45 seconds. While you hold her ashes, your spells cost 53% less Energy to cast. [10/2/60]
Flesh of My Flesh: Lose half of your Health. Resurrect target ally with your current Health and 12% Energy. [5/5/-]
I personally think thatthis may be the best one of the builds created around this theme! I will look through the other ones later. When Factions is released this might be the way to go for Ritualists in PvE! Definately a awesome Build you have created there that will probably work amazingly well in Cantha :grin:

[Geishe]

Indeed it is good! Best? Ouch... but your opinion. Hope no one got that. :tongue:

Maybe you should expand on your opinion, Im more than happy to hear idea's on this build. Maybe you can also comment on mine? Since you did not compare how this build is better than the other one.

Salute to Artemis for coming up with this build! Im actually regretting not posting up a build when I had the chance to, with school and all, but indeed congratulations on your wonderful find!

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Indeed it is good! Best? Ouch... but your opinion. Hope no one got that. :tongue:

Maybe you should expand on your opinion, Im more than happy to hear idea's on this build. Maybe you can also comment on mine? Since you did not compare how this build is better than the other one.

Salute to Artemis for coming up with this build! Im actually regretting not posting up a build when I had the chance to, with school and all, but indeed congratulations on your wonderful find!Not to steal your thunder Geishe, because I did model this entire build off of your original idea, and I've given you credit for that from my original post.

However, a difference between our builds that makes a huge difference is the amount of Animate Bone spells. Having a secondary spell allows you to get past any disabling, and also, increases your energy gain, health gain, and damage output by 50%. That is a more significant gain than the bonus damage from Rupture Soul. Also, Restoration isn't a very popular skill so far. I don't know how it will stack up in the actual game, but currently, in GvG and PvE, mass revive isn't needed. Other than that; however, our builds are the same.

Once again, I contribute everything in my build towards your original idea, but I'm just trying to point out some differences that Xunlai Agent might've been referencing.

[Geishe]

Our builds are similar, as in we're using the same concept, but we're using this theme in two totally different ways.

You're revolutionizing the ways Minion Masters think, with amazing amounts of minions, all buffed up to a perky pretty bone with high health. Incorporating explosive growth into this combo, you get mass AoE damage, mass army of minions + horrors, and mass amounts of self-replenishing energy/health. It is a breakthrough in its own rights. It can, and it will serve an important purpose to the future of GW, meatshields, Mass damage, and Healthy Minions! it is your build, its your idea and once again, I applaud your achievements.

But to say Restoration isn't a very popular skill so far, doesnt make sense... so far. No skill testing, no trial runs, who to say this won't become a popular skill? Indeed, the point about mass res is correct, but as you are revolutionizing Minion Masters, I'm trying to revolutionize Mass damage (with a dash of MASS-RESSING!)

Restoration is first created (Explosive Growth) , then can be planted with a Death Nova, and finally, be ruptured. That is 293 mass damage with blinding and poison. Health Gain and Energy gain. Oh and res. All with one spirit. You may gain your significant amount of energy, health, and one minion, but I gain what I need in MY build. Mass damage. The res is only a side effect that can help out in A LOT of situations.

I am focusing on the aggressive and dangerous side of this theme. I am not protecting my team with gigantic minions and horrors, in turn, I am blowing them up. I am not scared of being disabled from casting a minion, because I DO have a backup, just not a Bone Horror. I just have a 293 damage dealer, capable of shutting-down an entire mob, intoxicating them, as well as reviving any teammates. That is the reason why I have not put in Bone Horrors, I know its importance as I suggested the idea to you, but I have decided not to add them for the purpose of my build.

You have many extra pairs of hands, and I blow up those extra pairs of hands. You deal damage consistently over a longer period of time, I deal HUGE spikes of damage in a short amount of time. These are our differences, and they are rather huge. Anyone who fails to see this should be more vigilant. Both builds are impressive, and it depends on the eye of the beholder to say which they prefer.

Oh, and don't worry about recognition, if anyone fails to recognize my build, it is my own downfall. You are the creator of this build, and I am the creator of mine, there is no thunder to steal if we are both thunderclouds, so to say. But any further comments about which build is best should have comparisms and points on why they think that, it'll help me out. I'm sure it'll help you out as well, Artemis!

[Xunlai Agent]

Indeed it is good! Best? Ouch... but your opinion. Hope no one got that. :tongue:

Maybe you should expand on your opinion, Im more than happy to hear idea's on this build. Maybe you can also comment on mine? Since you did not compare how this build is better than the other one.

Salute to Artemis for coming up with this build! Im actually regretting not posting up a build when I had the chance to, with school and all, but indeed congratulations on your wonderful find!
I regret my poor choice of words and I would like to apologize for this statement. Best if of course highly subjective as there never is a “best” build. Your build is superior in damage because you will be dishing out, as you have already pointed out, quite a bit of damage. However in my opinion minions are not only about damage they also act as tanks to cover the casters, you actively decided not to go this route but chose massive damage over the ability to tank.

Your builds although they work around the same principle are two different approaches and as of yet I find it hard to judge which will be better in practice. I however prefer the health gain coupled with the energy gain and mass tanking that artemis‘ build allows and while your build beats it at damage I am unsure what this will look like in practice. For all we know the skills may have changed so who knows maybe these builds wont even work like they do on paper now. Maybe mass damage will be more important or maybe a massive army of minions will be better, we do not know what kind of monsters we will be facing so how can we say which will work best?

When Factions is finally released I will test both of your builds and then give you a new and better view/opinion on the two builds and what they are able achieve. I think damage can be left too the other classes because they too can deal large amounts of damage but is there another class that can set up a large amount of tanks like this? I should think not but saying one is clearly better than the other is like comparing apples and oranges. With Assassins and Ritualists added to the mix of classes, the PvE aspect of the game and our approach to it will probably change. We are judging these builds from what we know now but things may have changed by then, who knows?

:wave:

~Xunlai Agent~

[CKaz]

good fun stuff - just make sure what you're killing leave corpses :laughing:

seriously tho it'll be fun to play with, I'm focusing on spirit master myself

I'm more interested in Geishe's - I still find it doubtfully you'll out MM a N/?
I can see where such an explosive combination might be a bit of fun

Pure MM though? I'll likely want the Necro Golem, and to make the Vampric Horror more useful (if worthwhile going that route) you'll want its level and damage and gain to your health.
Necros also getting some Soul Reaping fun which will be worth a look.

Again not knocking Ri/N MM but lets look a little deeper -
You want a wall? It's not all about hitpoints, but also AL and level.
A low level, low AL target will get hit for [much] more damage - 4 levels is big.
You'll also do considerably less damage than a horror/fiend build and we have yet to find out the details on those 2 coming our way. I know you're not focusing on damage by the minions with your MM variant, just the Necro MM will be dishing out that much more.

Finally, no other secondaries and your points are spent - you have to compare apples to apples. If vampric horrors rock I can echo them, while leverahing my OoB to have the mana to do so. Or maybe I went /E to get Glyph of Renewal for it, or Glyph of Energy to knock down some of the expensive minion costs [fiends, vamp horrors, minions in particular]. Soul Reaping with Glyph of Energy, particular with minions, means real positive net energy there too, and they stand up longer in combat conditions.

I think you either want to leverage MM death or you don't. If you're not and want your stand-ups, I want a Necro MM. If the quality doesn't matter as much, bomb away. You don't need record hp minions here for that, of course some of the bomb skills need it so watch the timer and boom.

Looking forward to the PvE weekend (although not sure how much we'll be able to dig into), might answer some of this stuff. Like how cool is the elite Flesh Golem :laugh:

edit - one last note, I found restoration pretty good and the rit/mo a bit of fun on the pvp weekend, managed to make groups quite durable, fun :grin:

[Geishe]

Sorry Xunali for acting so.. jealous. Indeed, your comment is totally viable. As you can evidently see, I am brash and agressive; reflects off of my build :wink: .
I apologize for my rude comment, both builds have their own strengths and weaknesses. I will try out both builds as well, and you never know, I might actually like Artemis's more then my own!!

Ckaz, thank you for enjoying explosive side of life. Like you, I am interested in the new minions, namely the vampiric one.

[Xunlai Agent]

Again not knocking Ri/N MM but lets look a little deeper -
You want a wall? It's not all about hitpoints, but also AL and level.
A low level, low AL target will get hit for [much] more damage - 4 levels is big.
You'll also do considerably less damage than a horror/fiend build and we have yet to find out the details on those 2 coming our way. I know you're not focusing on damage by the minions with your MM variant, just the Necro MM will be dishing out that much more.

Finally, no other secondaries and your points are spent - you have to compare apples to apples. If vampric horrors rock I can echo them, while leverahing my OoB to have the mana to do so. Or maybe I went /E to get Glyph of Renewal for it, or Glyph of Energy to knock down some of the expensive minion costs [fiends, vamp horrors, minions in particular]. Soul Reaping with Glyph of Energy, particular with minions, means real positive net energy there too, and they stand up longer in combat conditions.

I think you either want to leverage MM death or you don't. If you're not and want your stand-ups, I want a Necro MM. If the quality doesn't matter as much, bomb away. You don't need record hp minions here for that, of course some of the bomb skills need it so watch the timer and boom.

Interesting points you came up with there but I do actually think your arguements are flawed to a certain degree.

On your point about the armor level, you do realize that a hexes ignore armor level? So do Conditions actually. Monks have a weakened counter to conditions as they do to hexes (Mend Ailment and Holy Veil were changed) however skills relating to direct damage were buffed (for example: Healing Hands, Mark of Protection, Shielding Hands etc) that may be a thing to consider when speaking about how effective these two alternatives will be.

The second statement you make is that Necros will be doing more damage than their Ritualist counterpart. But do you realize that he will actually have to spend more time and energy on keeping his minions on their feet because the degen is worse with low hp? Minions recieve natural degen over time, I don't know about you but when I am being degened I would trade my armor for some health. Quick quote as an answer to your statement on the damage that will be dealt:


Explosive Growth: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, up to 5 foes near that creature are struck for 68 lightning damage. [15/2/45]

That damage is going to add up so I don't know if the gap between the overall damage the Ritualist is doing and the damage the Necro is doing is as wide as you would have us believe. This is only focusing on Artemis' Build, you do realize that Geishe's build is capable of a miniature spike with good timing?

Yup our points are spent but these builds are focused tight nit summoners that are using their attributes to great potential. Then you go on to mention energy management, sure you may be better at gaining energy through the sheer fact that necro have soul reaping but I doubt Anet will leave the Ritualists with no options for energy management plus we have Boon of Creation and Attuned Was Songkai which allows us a great load of energy management that may rival the examples you mentioned.

The funniest thing is I never actually mentioned the Minionmancer (N/x) before you did so I don't see who or what you are arguing against. I was comparing the two build of Geishe and Artemis respectively. But the belief that either Necro > Ritualist or the other way round is false because there is never a best or a superior. I am sure that Anet has thought about the potential of the Ri/Necro and I doubt it will be utterly inferior to the Minionmancer.

In none of of my previous posts did I claim one was superior or inferior to the other and I won't do so now. (I didn't actually ever mention N/(X) until this post but CKaz may have overlooked that) They will be different styles, that will achieve different things and will probably shine under different circumstances. As we do not even know what Cantha will look like in terms of Monsters and explorable Areas any assumptions are pure theory crafting on our behalf. With no factual evidence of perfomance in PvE I would like to stay away from: "this is better than that..."

We arent even considering spirits in our equations and arguements so let us leave it at this neither is superior or inferior to the other.

~Xunlai Ritualist~

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

I just wanna make sure everyone is set straight on my build strategy. It is not meant to play as a MM meatshield build.

I am well aware that my minions have drastically lower AL and will not be able to tank nearly as well as a N/x. However, like the other Rt/N builds, my build is strongly based around recycling minions and creating corpses like any other minion bomber build.

So please, stop saying that my build is meant to be a MM.

[CKaz]

Interesting points you came up with there but I do actually think your arguements are flawed to a certain degree.


I think you misread a bit of it. I certainly know all about what damage does and doesn't take armor into account and of course one considers that.

I actually spoke to the fact I like Geishe's build and believe that build may be more effective than even a Necro trying to minion bomb. I'm very aware of the spike it can produce and it interests me, per my post :huh:

We know the Ritualists energy management and it looks good with the MM create build, I was pointing out how the Necro challenges.




The funniest thing is I never actually mentioned the Minionmancer (N/x) before you did so I don't see who or what you are arguing against.


Funniest thing about this is where did I quote you, or when did you become the den mother of the topic? We're talking about Ritualist viability as a MM right, that's the build? So in determining its merit you object to its comparison to a Necro MM? Huh? Aren't we comparing builds? Would it make sense to get all warm and fuzzy about a build that heavily borrows from another class if the original class did it that much better?

And I'm nowhere near hinting that the Ri/N build isnt viable. I'm wondering if that flavor however can exceed what a primary can already do. Geishe's is different, and it might be tough to challenge that even with a primary N. But this thread is talking about 2 builds, and I'm just questioning is this really the build you hope it will be. Hey we'd try it if we could but we can't yet :grin:




But the belief that either Necro > Ritualist or the other way round is false because there is never a best or a superior. I am sure that Anet has thought about the potential of the Ri/Necro and I doubt it will be utterly inferior to the Minionmancer.

Quoted for perhaps the goofiest statement I've ever received in a build argument. Are we playing the same game? Normally a primary class plays best with its own attribute line - at the very least you understand how the +attribute cap and runes work right? The only reason the ritualist challenges on MM is because of its primary attribute and some unique skills using creation there. You understand how N/E >> E/N MM right? Some primaries can change the tune, it'll be interesting to see how a Ranger/Assassin might work vs an Assassin/? regarding attacks for example, leveraging expertise.

I'm already agreeing there will be interesting builds and applications, MM bomber being one of them. I'm not saying Ri/N would be utterly inferior as a more traditional MMer. There have been threads suggesting Ri/N might be superior though, and isn't that one reason we're looking at this build here, to see how it compares to a regular MM? Otherwise what has it brought to the table? There was talk of their improved HP, energy, viability vs the traditional Necro MM throughout the post. But don't bring the Necro MM into it? :rolleyes:

Anyways sorry if you thought my post was remotely referring to yours. It wasn't. The Ri/N bomber interests me more, and I stated why maybe the Ri/N leveraging MM more not as much. Certainly there is real viability there, but just as we have to learn what Ritualists can really do with it, we need to see the new Necro skills too. And well what's the point of talking about a Ri/N MM build in the first place if you're not going to consider what you can already do with a regular Necro MM today? :grin:

[CKaz]

The simple beauty of this build is that it is a powerful minionmancer with great healing, damage output, and amazing energy management.



So please, stop saying that my build is meant to be a MM.


I'm sorry, I'm a bad man for assuming I should dare compare it to a Necro MM :rolleyes:

Personally I like it, and it has its own flavor. Obviously though I've misread the thickness of the skins of posters here in this thread so I'll leave my comparison thoughts - normally a good way to evaluate a build and indeed what I thought was asked for - to myself.

:grin:

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

Please compare my build to other builds. However, please do not assume what my build is used for without really assessing it first.

My build is not meant to keep minions alive. It is meant to blow up corpses then blow up the minions from the corpses. Please read the Strategy section of v1.1.

It's as much of a Minionbomber as Geishe's build. The only comparisons I've made with Geishe's build is that of the fact that he only has one Animate Spell. Saying your energy management, life management and damage management is all derived from creating corpses, I believe it is a viable choice to bring more than one Animate spell. Because in the case that someone does interrupt and disable your 3 second cast-time Animate spell, I would like a backup to keep me kickin'.

Furthermore, I have compared the health of Rt/N minions to N/x minions. This does not mean that I want my minions to wade around and serve as a wall. It was just a comparison.

Please read the strategy section of my build. If you are to compare it to something, compare it to a Minionbomber.

CKaz, neither Geishe nor I said we wanted a wall.

Finally, my interpretation of Minionmancer is one whom uses minions and thus has Necromancer as either a Primary or Secondary class. Minionmancer. Not a Minionsgoingtobeusedasawallmancer.

That's all.

Flame on.

[Orrik]

This is all just a concept mind you because this will probably be exploited like something fierce and nerfed shortly after. All that aside I'd like to see how the new elite minion would fit in said build, of if it would at all...

[Ekrin]

I was thinking about a Rt/N MM but i didnt really do a good job so i gave up (tryed just normal MM skills with SP :rolleyes: well you build is a TON better and i might even try it out on the 24 :)

[Artemis Shadowhawk]

This is all just a concept mind you because this will probably be exploited like something fierce and nerfed shortly after. All that aside I'd like to see how the new elite minion would fit in said build, of if it would at all...I've been working on a build using the Elite Minion along with Ancestor's Rage and Weapon Spells. Main problem is energy and health management. But Channeling is a great attribute for the Elite Minion.

Golem Summoner
Death, Channeling, Spawning

Animate Flesh Golem [e]
Ancestor's Rage
Splinter Weapon
Nightmare Weapon
Death Nova
Boon of Creation
Signet of Creation
Flesh of my Flesh

[ZenithZero]

There has been a lot of discussion on this build (http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=384667) as originally presented by Geishi. I figured it would be useful if a fully-fleshed out build was posted. So without further ado.

Explosive Minionmancer
Ritualist/Necromancer

Attributes:
Spawning: 12 [+3+1]=16
Death Magic: 12
Restoration: 6 [+1]=7

Skills:
Animate Bone Minions: Exploit nearest corpse to animate two level 10 Bone Minions. [25/3/5]
Death Nova: For 30 seconds, if target ally dies, Death Nova deals 85 damage and are Poisoned for 15 seconds. [5/2/-]
Blood of the Master: Sacrifice 10% max health. All adjacent undead allies are healed for 99. [10/1/5]
Verata's Sacrifice: Sacrifice 15% max health. For 18 seconds, all undead allies gain 10 health regeneration. All conditions are removed from those allies and transferred to you. [10/2/30]
Boon of Creation: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, you gain 53 Health and 8 Energy. [10/2/45]
Explosive Growth: For 63 seconds, whenever you create a creature, up to 5 foes near that creature are struck for 68 lightning damage. [15/2/45]
Attuned Was Songkai [e]: Hold Songkai's ashes for up to 45 seconds. While you hold her ashes, your spells cost 53% less Energy to cast. [10/2/60]
Flesh of My Flesh: Lose half of your Health. Resurrect target ally with your current Health and 12% Energy. [5/5/-]

Synopsis:
Attuned was Songkai will reduce the cost of Animate Bone Minions to 12 energy. Each of your minions will be animated with 459 hp. This is 19 more hp than a level 18 bone horror. Furthermore, upon casting Animate Bone Minions, you will deal 136 damage to 5 nearby targets from Explosive Growth. Also you'll gain 16 energy and 106 hp from Boon of Creation.

That means that with each casting of Animate Bone Minions, you will gain 4 energy, 106 hp, deal 136 damage to adjacent foes, and if you forgot, animate two minions with more life than a level 18 bone horror.

Comments?


actually animate bone minions is only 15 energy not 25

[Geishe]

actually animate bone minions is only 15 energy not 25

This was before the update, so yeah. Helps the build even more >.>

[DeXyre]

ever thought about signet of creation and then death nova'ing all your minions before they all die?

[Geishe]

ever thought about signet of creation and then death nova'ing all your minions before they all die?

Read the entire thread. Ill provide the shortcut = No.

[DeXyre]

i still prefer n/x for mm'ing purposes though... in general the minions do more damage, and if nobody is around the corpse you exploit you don't do any damage with explosive growth

and sure your minions may have more health but you can also keep 2 minions less in general...
this also means there are less targets around for enemies...

[Geishe]

i still prefer n/x for mm'ing purposes though... in general the minions do more damage, and if nobody is around the corpse you exploit you don't do any damage with explosive growth

and sure your minions may have more health but you can also keep 2 minions less in general...
this also means there are less targets around for enemies...

Youre not supposed to be replacing a MM with this build. Kill stuff, reanimate + Explosive Growth, Kill some more... repeat. Wait for a corpse to start the cycle, it won't take THAT long.

If you are comparing Rits to Necros in being Minion masters, then of course Necros would win. But this build is fun, effective and can cause plenty of AoE damage.

[NeferJackal]

Definitely an interesting build, I have looked for something to renew my interest in factions and trying something out of the box with the ritualist. As I find its the best looking of the Canthan chars. Ritualists looks and animates much better than Necromancers with their slumped, twitching pose in my humble oppinion. The Ritualist synergizes perfectly with what a necromancer can offer, and provides for a way to use the ritualist skills without feeling constrained to be dependent on spirits. Heck, you can even play a bloodcaster in the early game till you get the needed elite and levels. Blood is superior to channeling, which i find kinda lacking in punch in PvE, where enemies quickly grows to a scale that punishes one relying on elemental damage. Finally I like this approach, because it allows you to play a Creator, without being shackled to the 'end all, be all' Ritual Lord skill. And also be more mobile. Ritual Lord comes so late in the game, that you really cant effectively be a spiritualist without that utterly crucial skill, whereas this build can be realized much earlier.

On guild wiki there is also an explosive minionmancer build, though I think it pales to what which is discussed here. Namely because it uses Flesh Golem as elite, and not Atuned Was Songkai for perfect energy management with Boon of Creation. Though when playing a Ritlord, and nothing mollested my Boon of Creation, I rarely felt I had problems having healthy amounts of energy. But I think AwS might indeed be needed, because you will be blowing lots of energy on casting Death Nova, which you wont recover with Boon.

Also I think Signet of Creation will be the better choice for managing your minions, as Verata's Sacrifice got heavilly hit since this guide was made, and it provides for a way to instantly detonate all your minions at once to use with Death Nova.

But what Weapon and Armor to use? 3 obvious choices for armor, Energy Armor, Ashpot Armor and Health Armor. Energy definitely wont be a problem with this build, so thats out of the window. Ashpot Armor really doesnt seem like a good idea as you shouldnt be hit at all, which leaves the +35 Health armor as the superior choice. Namely, because when combined with a Major Vigor, allows you to cancel out the superior spawning rune you will be using. So you wont present a bigger target to monsters when holding ashes, as you cant recieve hp mods from equipment. And a major vigor definitely is affordable.

Weapon, I would take a Death Staff with a 20% enchanting mod, letting you cast your enchantments with extra duration, before pulling out Songkai's ashes. Though Im really not sure of what head that would be good. Since you wont be seeing it most of the time, but i think that an energy head would do the trick, giving you the extra boost for when Songkai's ashes is spent. I were considering a Spawning staff, but Death magic mods would be of primary concern for quicker casting and recharge when AwS is down.

[Nobleman Azure]

at the current state of MMs right now yes this is simply a fun build. But if anet every waters MMs down a bit this could be a viable tyep of build to bring along for good results since as far as I see its half a MM and half a putrid explosioner.

Its sorta sad such an ingenious idea is nothing more than a fun build at the current state of the game =(

[Geishe]

Its sorta sad such an ingenious idea is nothing more than a fun build at the current state of the game =(

So true... but just playing a Ritualist or Mesmer is fun and non-mainstream. At least we have the capability to come up with new creative builds ^^

[Rakgar]

This was definately a fun combination that I ran with a fair amount while building my ritualist up. Extremely powerful on the Shing Jea island, infact I believe the only character that came even close to it's offensive capabilities was a maxed out fire elementalist there, yet it scales down very quickly once you hit the mainland. Simply because minions & afflicted (their explosions more importantly) do not play well together. You often lose minions faster than you can toss death nova on them. In a mission like Vizunah this isn't a problem at all, as long as you are not fighting another MM for corpses, but in areas where you need to carry these minions to the next big fight it can be a bit annoying to manage.

[NeferJackal]

Hmm, i see what you mean, regarding the afflicted. But you would still have the damage from Explosive Creation to fall back on, no? Death Nova and Signet of Creation just seems like an added bonus, and as long you can keep raising corpses, you should have steady damage from twice triggering EC with Bone Minions. As energy shouldnt be a concern with Boon of Creation and Atuned was Songkai. Infact it is more efficient than a necromancer, as you do not need something to die to gain extra energy, as it comes from the enchantment and ashes.

Necromancers does seem more suited from benefitting from the end of created things, ie detonating them, whereas Ritualists benefits from Creating them. Hp, energy and inflicting Lightning damage. Though I am wondering if there is more ways to capitalize on Creation, as I think Explosive Creation was made with Rit/Nec's in mind. As usually with spirits, you stay in the back and dont rapidly recycle them, at least without Ritual Lord, nor is it a good idea that enemies should be around and hitting them as spirits usualy produces a beneficial effect.

It would have been realy nice if Ritualists had an AoE hex that made victims vulnerable to Lightning damage, would make up for the poor punch of Channeling and give extra oomph to EC.


Something that just struck me, since Bone Minions was reduced in Cost to 15 energy, is Atuned Was Songkai really needed at all? As like with Explosive Creation, Boon of Creation also triggers twice at Creation of Bone Minions. Netting you a gain of 16 energy versus a cost of 15 energy when creating Bone Minions. It would really be less of a hassle if you dont need AwS, so your energy levels would remain constant and not fluctuating from dropping or creating ashes. Again i would recommend a death staff with enchantment, as the hp bonus from armor, makes hp mods on weapon uneeded, and a +5 energy head for good sake for a higher max energy. Also your enchantments would always be cast with extra duration.

[Geishe]

Something that just struck me, since Bone Minions was reduced in Cost to 15 energy, is Atuned Was Songkai really needed at all? As like with Explosive Creation, Boon of Creation also triggers twice at Creation of Bone Minions. Netting you a gain of 16 energy versus a cost of 15 energy when creating Bone Minions. It would really be less of a hassle if you dont need AwS, so your energy levels would remain constant and not fluctuating from dropping or creating ashes. Again i would recommend a death staff with enchantment, as the hp bonus from armor, makes hp mods on weapon uneeded, and a +5 energy head for good sake for a higher max energy. Also your enchantments would always be cast with extra duration.

If you look at the original post, it was made WAY WAY WAY before the MM change. AwS was there for the 25 e Minions. Change it to your personal preference.

[NeferJackal]

Well, i suppose AwS still would be useful if you desire to use other than 15cost bone minions. Though the core spell of the build is Bone Minions, because they twice triggers your enchantments. But were you only to use bone minions, what elite would you guys think is good?

[NeferJackal]

Question, is there a way to tab through minions so you can quickly load Death Nova on them all?

[Naruto Uzumaki]

Question, is there a way to tab through minions so you can quickly load Death Nova on them all?

Same question from me ^^

[Cambeul]

No, no, and um no :'(

[Tears of Dragon]

I'm still unsure about Signet of Creation. There's a few reasons I'm avoiding it.

If you activate signet of creation then start applying death nova, but after 20 seconds every enemy is dead. Well you now have 10 seconds to kick yourself until all your minions are wasted.

sig. of creation helps you to bring all minions that survived combat to the next one, then reapply death nova and at the time you reach next group...BOOM! :laugh:

i love this build, 1 problem i have with it it feels like full time job, and on the other hand it is frustrating when some other necro steals "your" corpses

[Raven Flameheart]

Rather iconically, this post has been brought back from the dead. But since the new prevailance of NF skills since it's creation, might as well add to the build duscussion:

As AwS is no longer needed, you are free to use Jagged Bones. A new minion for only 5 energy means your energy actually rises from Boon of creation. Verata's Sacrifice is pretty much surplus, and can be replaced with either Shambling Horrors or Spirit's Gift - the former if you can see a lot of corpses, the latter if you need more healing than minion renewal.

[bellissima]

Yes, there is a newer thread that takes NF into account in the Rit Guides forum.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4642911#post4642911

I'm closing this one; continue discussion in the newer thread.