The Searing

[False Visage]

I was reading the Thread pertaining to the Mursaat a while ago and wanted to talk about the Searing since it came up in it. But, I hadn't joined yet and the discussion moved on so it's best to make a new thread.

Several points came up that I thought would be good to discuss.

Firstly, what was the Searing? While we saw in the Cutscene the giant crystalline meteor that hurtled into Ascalon, we saw nothing else except the aftermath. So, it's hard to say exactly what happened but I'll cover the basics I can think up and people can add to them later.

1. Almost, if not all land became baren, or close to it. There seem to be some weeds and trees that can survive still, although in the tree's case it's difficult to say whether they are merely the remains of trees that were not incinerated/

2. All the water dissapeared in the land seems to have evaporated or dissapeared, or been replaced with tar. One explanation raised for this was that the biomatter and water lost in the event became the tar we find.

3. Crystals appeared in the area around Old Ascalon. One likely explanation is that they are the remenants of the meteor like object we saw at the end of Pre-Searing, or that they grew afterwards.



One theory raised was that The Searing was a Meteor like Event. Personally, I do not find this to be plausible for a few reasons. The main being that since we see the Crystal like Meteor object impact near Ascalon there must at least be an epicenter to the Event near it. The impact force of a Meteor of the size we saw would create a very large crater and would have flattened the party completely from our vantage point. But, the basic landform appears largely unchanged, to the degree that it's not difficult to find the where all the all landmarks once were. The destruction is too global but mostly too even and regular for it to be a natural Meteor Event.

Also raised was the nature of the Crystalline Matter that appeared to make up the Meteor. I do not find it likely that, as was suggested, it originated from the Crystal Desert.

The case for this is such:

We know that the Desert used to be a lush and verdant area. However, it underwent a relatively rapid ecological shift. Furthermore, the Crystal Desert is called so because each "Grain of Sand" is actually a tiny Crystal. The clincher is that the Desert is too much like a normal Desert where the sand is made up of fine mineral matter. Crystals, in general are a much stronger than normal rock than would have ground down to make the sands in a Desert. The Crystal matter is too regular and even once again for it to have fragmented from one, or many larger Crystals and then fractured into smaller pieces. It is most likely the crystals in the desert already existed before the change or that the upper crust was converted into the small crystals.

Needless to say, they are very different to the ones in Ascalon, which are large and have complicated structures. Also the Ascalonian Crystals appear to be magically charged, along with frequent lightning strikes to them. While it's possible that they are in fact a conglomerate of the smaller Desert Crystals, somehow welded together through magic the important aspect in that is the agent combining them, not the actual matter itself.


I also find it unlikely Glint was responsible, as the only powers she has actively displayed in the game are those within the domains of the professions, the ability to manipulate dimensions (As is demonstrated in the Dragons Lair, Glint's lair is inside a Crystal in the desert if I remember the lore correctly) and finally, the ability of projection when she communicates with you later in the game (This however could be a true Spirit, but it is unclear whether the Bonuses actually happen in the Storyline or are merely extra bonuses in the missions that don't happen in the context of the story). I feel this ability is closer to that of the Titans if it is infact an external influence. The other option is that it was merely entirely the work of the Charr alone.

It's quite late now and this has taken me a long time to assemble so I'm sure there are points I'll remember later and add.

[Quintus Antonius]

Several points came up that I thought would be good to discuss.

Firstly, what was the Searing? While we saw in the Cutscene the giant crystalline meteor that hurtled into Ascalon, we saw nothing else except the aftermath. So, it's hard to say exactly what happened but I'll cover the basics I can think up and people can add to them later.

1. Almost, if not all land became baren, or close to it. There seem to be some weeds and trees that can survive still, although in the tree's case it's difficult to say whether they are merely the remains of trees that were not incinerated/

2. All the water dissapeared in the land seems to have evaporated or dissapeared, or been replaced with tar. One explanation raised for this was that the biomatter and water lost in the event became the tar we find.

3. Crystals appeared in the area around Old Ascalon. One likely explanation is that they are the remenants of the meteor like object we saw at the end of Pre-Searing, or that they grew afterwards.

1. Yes, the land is baren. That's why the term "Searing" was used. The land was "seared" with magic, and because inhospitable. The plant life that survived are mostly, as you said, weeds and ferns. Such flora are very hardy, and have adapted to survive in almost any climate. Think of Dandelions, they will grow anywhere, even through concrete. The trees we see are indeed the trees that are not completely immolated. There is no time for a tree to reach the full maturity of the trees we see in Ascalon, post-Searing. Remember, it has only been two years since the Searing when the game picks up. Most trees have a life cycle of over three years before they begin to reproduce, let alone, reach the heigh of some of the Ascalonian trees. Those are simply the charred husks of the trees that survived.

2. The water did not evaporate. If it had evaporated, it would have rained back down. The water was vaporized, by either intense heat (once again "searing") or by some sort of magical incantation that accompanied the falling crystals. The tar is the biomatter of the dead organisms of Ascalon. This is the only way tar is created. The tar is where the lakes are because the lakes were depressions in the land where the tar was able to run down into once the water was vaporized.

3. Ascalon wasn't seared by one meteor, it was seared by a series of large crystals that were called down by the Charr. I don't think the majority of the crystals gained the necessary velocity to cause massive, world-changing, impact craters. Although, some did create substantial craters. I'm willing to bet a majority of the crystals exploded before hitting the ground, with only the largest surviving to cause ground damage. This explains why the trees are blown over, and also would account for the intense heat needed to cause the types of damage observed in Ascalon after the Searing.




One theory raised was that The Searing was a Meteor like Event. Personally, I do not find this to be plausible for a few reasons. The main being that since we see the Crystal like Meteor object impact near Ascalon there must at least be an epicenter to the Event near it. The impact force of a Meteor of the size we saw would create a very large crater and would have flattened the party completely from our vantage point. But, the basic landform appears largely unchanged, to the degree that it's not difficult to find the where all the all landmarks once were. The destruction is too global but mostly too even and regular for it to be a natural Meteor Event.

I agree and disagree with this. I do agree that, in essence, the Searing was not a natural meteor impact, but rather, a magically summoned phenomenon. The crystals did not enter from orbit, or gain the velocity necessary to cause massive craters, like you are suggesting. They fell from a distance of less than two miles up, probably the origin of their summoning. If there had been only one giant crystal, it would have simply flattened everything (as in, compressed it to something like a one-dimensional plane). Rather, a "shower" of crystals, of varying sizes, rained down. This is reflected in first hand accounts by survivors of the Searing from around Ascalon.

Also raised was the nature of the Crystalline Matter that appeared to make up the Meteor. I do not find it likely that, as was suggested, it originated from the Crystal Desert.



Also the Ascalonian Crystals appear to be magically charged, along with frequent lightning strikes to them.

The lighting strikes are due to the charge of the crystals. Because of their crystalline nature, they hold a varying charge in comparison to the land around them. Magic has nothing to do with it. Lightning travels from a point of (+) or (-) charge, to a cooresponding point, whether in the sky or on the ground, of the opposite charge. The crystals hold a great deal of charge, because of their nature, and because of the friction and internal energy within them. Because of this, lighting is naturally attracted to them. This is why we see the numerous lightning strikes to the crystals.



I also find it unlikely Glint was responsible, as the only powers she has actively displayed in the game are those within the domains of the professions, the ability to manipulate dimensions (As is demonstrated in the Dragons Lair, Glint's lair is inside a Crystal in the desert if I remember the lore correctly) and finally, the ability of projection when she communicates with you later in the game (This however could be a true Spirit, but it is unclear whether the Bonuses actually happen in the Storyline or are merely extra bonuses in the missions that don't happen in the context of the story). I feel this ability is closer to that of the Titans if it is infact an external influence. The other option is that it was merely entirely the work of the Charr alone.

It's quite late now and this has taken me a long time to assemble so I'm sure there are points I'll remember later and add.

The reason people feel that Glint was involved, is because she foresaw the Flameseeker Prophecies, and she knew that all of the events of Guild Wars were going to occur.

Furthermore, as you stated, Glint has some manner of quantum translocation abilities, which accounts for the portals in her Lair. Remember though, her portals are surrounded by crystals, which suggests she uses the crystals as a carrier or representation of her magical abilities. Also, if she does in fact have some sort of "porting" power, it is possible she could use this ability to translocate the crystals from some other point, either on Tyria, or in some extradimensional location, to Ascalon upon the Charr's summoning.

To be perfectly honest, we aren't sure if Glint was involved or not, however, given the facts, she is the most likely candidate (if any) to have helped the Charr in creating the Searing. It may simply be that the Charr did it all themselves. The only way we can be sure is if ANet lets us explore the Charr further in coming chapters.

[Lazarus Dio]

It may simply be that the Charr did it all themselves. The only way we can be sure is if ANet lets us explore the Charr further in coming chapters.


As of now, I am most inclined to think that the Charr acted alone. I am open to the posibility of outside influence but the only evidence we have is circumstantial. I also hope that we get to explore the Charr lands. It seems to be hinted at that they hold a great amount of territory to the north. The more I think of it the cooler it sounds to me!

[Siru]

As of now, I am most inclined to think that the Charr acted alone. I am open to the posibility of outside influence but the only evidence we have is circumstantial. I also hope that we get to explore the Charr lands. It seems to be hinted at that they hold a great amount of territory to the north. The more I think of it the cooler it sounds to me!
Yep, it sure sounds nice :wink:

I think too that the charrs might have acted alone on this one, cause there is so many proofs that chars are NOT just simple, stupid and savage as many others belive. I would say they are pretty clever fellas with strong attunement with magic and land combinied with their culture.. *sigh* I would like to join 'em :cry:
So I'm giving all my respects for them. Go get 'em boys! Nuke all the humans! :thumbsup:

[Rob Van Der Sloot]

I think this actually calls for an in depth study of Charr culture.

[Siru]

I think this actually calls for an in depth study of Charr culture.

Done it pretty much and found out pretty interesting things and few big questionmarks.. But there's few little problems that I have: my english skills are not so good so I can't "explain" everything so clearly and fluently so I'll leave the talking to someone else who can do it better. :embarassed:
Sorry

[ZefvoneeGreff]

Everyone knows that The Searing was just a big cover up to turn the ressurection shrine outside the original city walls around.

But seriously, that's kinda interesting. I always just assumed that the Charr used some kind of magic fire to launch at the humans, which seared everything, but didn't decimate it all. Also, I thought that the fire, since it was magical, formed the crystals where it hit multiple times or something.

[Barinthus]

Perhaps there's nothing here.

But let's look at crystals in Ascalon post searing...

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/8251/ascaloncrystals9nr.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ascaloncrystals9nr.jpg)

[Barinthus]

(Due to limits on how many pictures I can post here, I had to make one more posting)

While I was venturing out into Salt Flats scanning for bleached bones and marking locations of giant bones, I noted that the sand had a purplish tint to it.

I wonder perhaps it was due to higher concentration of crystal grains as compared to other regions?

Observe for yourself... all are from Salt Flats:

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/6802/saltflat0ay.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saltflat0ay.jpg)

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/3555/saltflat28mw.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saltflat28mw.jpg)

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/2889/saltflat33rq.th.jpg (http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saltflat33rq.jpg)

What's more, in this region I often observe lightnings. I do not recall seeing this in other regions.

One picture of a such lightning in Salt Flats:
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1083/saltflatbox3lm.th.jpg (http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saltflatbox3lm.jpg)

[Arkhan The Black]

I would like to believe that the crystals are really from outer space but are really sturdy since they don't shatter by falling from such a distant. Ascalon is full with craters and cracks in the crust of the planet. So the impact must have been really powerful and just not dropped from the sky. They are also rather sharp and could therefore burrow themselves like bullets deep in the ground instead of being crushed on impact.

Maybe to cast the searing you need a certain celestial body to be present which is why it hasn’t been used again?

[Lazarus Dio]

Yep, it sure sounds nice :wink:

I think too that the charrs might have acted alone on this one, cause there is so many proofs that chars are NOT just simple, stupid and savage as many others belive. I would say they are pretty clever fellas with strong attunement with magic and land combinied with their culture.. *sigh* I would like to join 'em :cry:
So I'm giving all my respects for them. Go get 'em boys! Nuke all the humans! :thumbsup:


I am also very much interested in the Charr as a peoples. In hindsight, they don't seem to be the epic "bad guys" of the Guild Wars world. Sure they screwed over Ascalon but thats about the last we hear of them. I would be very interested in hearing more about your findings Siru!

[False Visage]

My point was that I don't agree it was a Meteor Event. I was just stating what was said an why I disagreed with it.

I agree that it wasn't a Natural Phenomenon. My view, is that the Crystals are a Catalyst or Focal Point for the magic that The Searing unleashed on Ascalon. The fact the many humans and wildlife are still alive makes me feel that this was intended to cripple the Human's position instead of eliminate them.

However, it's difficult to say why. For any of the parties it would be in their better interests to kill the humans and to take the land for their own. If Glint had this kind of destructive power, she would have been better off destroying the Titans herself so I also doubt it's her.

[Cyberman]

Outside Ascalon, where Altheas stage was - the area is rippled, as if something heavy hit there.
Perhaps this crystal did come from far?

BTW, do we know that the crystals fell down? Perhaps some sort of meteoric seed fell, and the crystals grew, draining the required energy from the surroundings.

(Think of Tiberium in Command & Conquer.)

[bigwig]

(Due to limits on how many pictures I can post here, I had to make one more posting)

While I was venturing out into Salt Flats scanning for bleached bones and marking locations of giant bones, I noted that the sand had a purplish tint to it.

I wonder perhaps it was due to higher concentration of crystal grains as compared to other regions?

Observe for yourself... all are from Salt Flats:



i'm not sure what your saying. that theres a connection with the crystal meteors in ascalon? there is salt in the salt flats. salt is a crystal. beyond that i don't think theres a connection.

[Quintus Antonius]

i'm not sure what your saying. that theres a connection with the crystal meteors in ascalon? there is salt in the salt flats. salt is a crystal. beyond that i don't think theres a connection.

Well, Crystal Desert does imply some sort of crystalline connection; and, in fact, this is exactly the case.



The weather in the Crystal Desert is hot and unforgiving. The winds blow hard, making and unmaking dunes, covering up the present and uncovering the past. An examination of the sand will reveal that each grain is actually a tiny, pointed crystal. In isolated locations, larger crystal formations have been revealed by the constant, unforgiving wind. (Guild Wars 68)

So once again, the Manuscripts show that there is indeed large crystalline formations in the Desert. It is possible there is a connection, although, most evidence so far has been circumstantial.


I would like to believe that the crystals are really from outer space but are really sturdy since they don't shatter by falling from such a distant. Ascalon is full with craters and cracks in the crust of the planet. So the impact must have been really powerful and just not dropped from the sky. They are also rather sharp and could therefore burrow themselves like bullets deep in the ground instead of being crushed on impact.

Maybe to cast the searing you need a certain celestial body to be present which is why it hasn’t been used again?

What you are neglecting to take into consideration is the physics involved with such a large, dense, object falling from space.

I could go into a long, mathematically explanation, but I'll just paraphrase. An object with the density and size of the Ascalonian Searing crystals would not act like a bullet, which is small and able to penetrate easily. Rather, it would act similar to the meteor/comet that caused the K-T Event in Earth's history, wiping out the dinosaurs. Only difference is, instead of one, huge K-T Asteroid, there were many, many Ascalonian Crystals, each of similar size, or varying size, from small to freaking huge. Such impacts, repeatedly, at the velocity of re-entry into the Tyrian atmosphere, and contacting the ground, would have done more than just cracked the crust, it would have caused massive impact craters, completely destroying, not just Ascalon, but also Tyria. Those parts that aren't destroyed would have been effected when the dust of the impact caused a massive ice age, engulfing the planet and blocking off the sun. The Cataclysm and Searing would have been firecrackers in comparison.

Basically, the crystals could not have come from outerspace, not without serious repercussions to Tyria as a whole. They had to have originated near to the surface of the planet.

[Lazarus Dio]

BTW, do we know that the crystals fell down? Perhaps some sort of meteoric seed fell, and the crystals grew, draining the required energy from the surroundings.

(Think of Tiberium in Command & Conquer.)


Its been a while but I'm pretty sure that in the cutscene showing part of the searing you can make out the forms of crystals falling from the sky. Also, it appears that a crystal might have been launched from the altar surrounded by Charr. If this can be confirmed then we may have a clearer picture of the mechanics of the event. Anyone got an open slot or a presear character?

[Barinthus]

i'm not sure what your saying. that theres a connection with the crystal meteors in ascalon? there is salt in the salt flats. salt is a crystal. beyond that i don't think theres a connection.

Nothing conclusive but I'm saying its possible.

Salt is crystal yes but it doesn't neccessarily glow with purplish light like screenies showed. Same purplish glow as Searing crystals. Also it has been noted that Searing crystals attract lightnings as you can see all over in Post Searing Ascalon.

As far as I recall, Salt Flats is the only place that you can see lightnings on a regular basis. It's also the place where you have those purple glowing sand.

[Arkhan The Black]

Well maybe the Charr opened a rift to another realm that contained the crystals and then sent them upon Ascalon. But I do suspect that the Searing is related to the awesome power of the Titans. Either way they must have been launched since they are not falling straight down.

[Stardrake]

Its been a while but I'm pretty sure that in the cutscene showing part of the searing you can make out the forms of crystals falling from the sky. Also, it appears that a crystal might have been launched from the altar surrounded by Charr. If this can be confirmed then we may have a clearer picture of the mechanics of the event. Anyone got an open slot or a presear character?

I've been doing a lot of mucking around with presearing characters lately (my computer's busted, and the computer I'm on is owned by someone who's lefthanded and has the mouse on the left, which makes it not exactly perfect for going into high-end areas, so I've been trying out professions I haven't really played yet) and last time I Seared a character, I didn't think the crystal got launched from the altar.

Of course, it could still be worth having a pair of eyes do it for the sole purpose of looking for crystal launchings.

[Rob Van Der Sloot]

The crystals are not launched from the altar. The Charr launch what seems like a ball of light into the sky, and then crystals start falling from the sky. If you forgot what it looks like check my movie (http://files.filefront.com/miyaandmalafideepisode1zip/;4448224;;/fileinfo.html) again, if you'll excuse the pimping. You can clearly see the crystals just drop out of the sky.

[Ashberry]

What are those large pits in parts of the desert? Maybe the machine the charr made kinda scooped up chunks of the desert, solidifyig the sand into large crystal formations then dropping them down on ascalon?

I saw some random sci-fi channel made for TV movie where huge amounts of heat turned the sahara desert into basically a large expanse of glass formations (probably where the jade sea idea came from for factions, it looks very similar, only the color is different). And the Charr have a thing about fire..

[False Visage]

It's doubtful that the Crystal Desert became glass, because that would only affect the surface layers. Also, it would have incinerated the wooden ships that are so popular with the Elonian and Margonite theories.

As for the Purple Crystals in the Desert, these could simply be coloured by the presence of another mineral in the crystal. As I am not a Geologist I can't comment too heavily on this, but I know that Rubies are actually red Sapphires, so I think it could be like that. However, if the Purple Crystals in the Desert are part of larger ones, it could still be a tenable link.

However, it still doesn't explain the other effects of the searing and why it affected all of Ascalon. The Radius isn't even all around, the effects finish at the borders of Ascalon, a quick look at the map can tell you this.

If the main cause of the Event had been the Meteor-Like Crystals, it should have a reasonably even radius and radiate out from the Epicentre. It still suggests that the main cause effect of The Searing came after the impacts and was most likely based in Magic.

[Ashberry]

Well sand at a high enough temperature does become glass.

http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/glass/birm2.html

Since it would be impossible to get that kind of heat over a wide enough area to solidify an entire desert without some huge catastrophic event, something more localised would have to do. But small pockets would be more likely, using the sand as the raw material, blasting area's of it with intense heat, melting the sand into a single structure, then lifting it up, again with magic and throwing it out only to land on ascalon.

I suppose another possibility would have been to use magic to lift up the sand into huge sandstorms, high up in the atmosphere, beyond the atmosphere, localising it above ascalon, then on the return journey down, the sand would of course heat up re-entering the atmosphere, becoming liquifided, heavier, hotter, forming up into larger structures before slamming into the ground at very high temperatures, tearing up the ground and burning anything to sinders nearby. The storm that would continue in the air would of course block out the sun for a long time (and cause the reddish tint to the sky) which would quickly kill off the flora and added to the dust thrown up from the impacts would certainly add to the whole disaster. Magic being used, perhaps by the mursaat to keep the cloud from reaching them, or maybe just the natural weather patterns of the shiverpeaks helped prevent the effect from spreading too far.

Being magic it stands to reason it could be contained around a certain area. And such a storm like that could go towards explaining things.

[Quintus Antonius]

As for the Purple Crystals in the Desert, these could simply be coloured by the presence of another mineral in the crystal. As I am not a Geologist I can't comment too heavily on this, but I know that Rubies are actually red Sapphires, so I think it could be like that. However, if the Purple Crystals in the Desert are part of larger ones, it could still be a tenable link.



The crystalline structures, at least the purple ones, could be quartz. Quartz tends to form similar crystal structures, and some sands, even on Earth, and composed of quartz.



I suppose another possibility would have been to use magic to lift up the sand into huge sandstorms, high up in the atmosphere, beyond the atmosphere, localising it above ascalon, then on the return journey down, the sand would of course heat up re-entering the atmosphere, becoming liquifided, heavier, hotter, forming up into larger structures before slamming into the ground at very high temperatures, tearing up the ground and burning anything to sinders nearby. The storm that would continue in the air would of course block out the sun for a long time (and cause the reddish tint to the sky) which would quickly kill off the flora and added to the dust thrown up from the impacts would certainly add to the whole disaster. Magic being used, perhaps by the mursaat to keep the cloud from reaching them, or maybe just the natural weather patterns of the shiverpeaks helped prevent the effect from spreading too far.

Being magic it stands to reason it could be contained around a certain area. And such a storm like that could go towards explaining things.

There are full sized crystals in the Crystal Desert, buried under the sand, and also in remote locations. The following is an excerpt from an earlier post I made.


Well, Crystal Desert does imply some sort of crystalline connection; and, in fact, this is exactly the case.


The weather in the Crystal Desert is hot and unforgiving. The winds blow hard, making and unmaking dunes, covering up the present and uncovering the past. An examination of the sand will reveal that each grain is actually a tiny, pointed crystal. In isolated locations, larger crystal formations have been revealed by the constant, unforgiving wind. (Guild Wars 68)


So once again, the Manuscripts show that there is indeed large crystalline formations in the Desert. It is possible there is a connection, although, most evidence so far has been circumstantial.

So, the crystals, if they came from the Desert, and that's an if, could have been lifted bodily from the Desert and transported. There is no need to "create" anything.

[liamSlayer]

i think the ray of light created a portal to the desert and these crystals were pulled out of the ground and thown at ascalon

[Zaxares]

I still personally think that the Searing crystals have nothing to do at all with the Crystal Desert. The Charr were using a powerful magical ritual to cause the Searing; by its very nature, magic is supposed to defy logic. There's nothing saying that the Charr ritual could not have just caused giant crystals to materialise from nowhere and slam down into Ascalon, just like the Elementalist spell Meteor Shower causes meteors to appear from nowhere and pummel her enemies. The spell certainly didn't pull them down from space; the meteors would take WAY longer than just 5 seconds to arrive.

At first I originally thought that the Searing crystals were perhaps leeching the life energy (or perhaps essential nutrients) from the surrounding land, turning the area into a blasted wasteland much like Tiberian does in the Command & Conquer series, but apparently that's not always the case. There's a region in Ascalon (I can't remember where exactly. I'll have to go searching for it) where there's a profusion of plant growth near one of the crystals, so the theory that the crystals are inimical to life is obviously not true.

I'll go looking for that spot tonight if I can and take some screenshots.

[Quintus Antonius]

I still personally think that the Searing crystals have nothing to do at all with the Crystal Desert. The Charr were using a powerful magical ritual to cause the Searing; by its very nature, magic is supposed to defy logic. There's nothing saying that the Charr ritual could not have just caused giant crystals to materialise from nowhere and slam down into Ascalon, just like the Elementalist spell Meteor Shower causes meteors to appear from nowhere and pummel her enemies. The spell certainly didn't pull them down from space; the meteors would take WAY longer than just 5 seconds to arrive.

At first I originally thought that the Searing crystals were perhaps leeching the life energy (or perhaps essential nutrients) from the surrounding land, turning the area into a blasted wasteland much like Tiberian does in the Command & Conquer series, but apparently that's not always the case. There's a region in Ascalon (I can't remember where exactly. I'll have to go searching for it) where there's a profusion of plant growth near one of the crystals, so the theory that the crystals are inimical to life is obviously not true.

I'll go looking for that spot tonight if I can and take some screenshots.

I don't believe that the crystals cause plant life to be unable to grow, rather, I think the extreme enviromental changes in the area are what caused the plant life to stop growing. And obviously, because there are no plants to germinate, no new plants grow. However, the hardly plants, such as the ferns and weeds we see growing, survived and can continue to survive in the blasted landscape.

Remember, it's been two years since the Searing. That means two springs, two winters, two summers, and two autumns in Ascalon with no climatological shift. That must have reeked havoc on the plant life.

[Lazarus Dio]

I still personally think that the Searing crystals have nothing to do at all with the Crystal Desert. The Charr were using a powerful magical ritual to cause the Searing; by its very nature, magic is supposed to defy logic. There's nothing saying that the Charr ritual could not have just caused giant crystals to materialise from nowhere and slam down into Ascalon, just like the Elementalist spell Meteor Shower causes meteors to appear from nowhere and pummel her enemies. The spell certainly didn't pull them down from space; the meteors would take WAY longer than just 5 seconds to arrive.



I too have doubts about a Desert/Searing connection. In addition, I have also always seen the searing as some sort of Firestorm/Meteor Shower spell on an awesomely larger scale. I personally think that any more complicated theory is not necessary based on the knowledge that we have now. Think Occam's Razor. "One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything".

[Zaxares]

Remember, it's been two years since the Searing. That means two springs, two winters, two summers, and two autumns in Ascalon with no climatological shift. That must have reeked havoc on the plant life.

Exactly. Two years is a long amount of time, insofar as biological cycles as concerned. While I do accept the plausibility of the theory that the extreme heat and devastation caused by the initial Searing killed off a lot of the plant and animal life, without something to keep that heat constantly present in the area, it's unlikely that the extreme conditions following the Searing would have persisted beyond a few months (or even weeks). In time, normal weather patterns would return, and precipitation should restore the ecological balance to its normal functions.

Since that has not happened, something must be stopping the weather cycles in Ascalon from returning to normal.

To my mind, the singular largest factor preventing the regrowth of normal plant life in Ascalon appears to be the distinct lack of precipitation. I'm no meteorologist, but from my limited knowledge, in order for this to occur, there must be a significant quantity of hot air centered above Ascalon that is forcibly pushing away the colder masses of air that normally bring rainclouds to a region.

And of course, to keep a region's air consistently hot, something needs to be generating an immense amount of heat. I doubt that the Charr's flame effigies, as numerous as they seem to be, is sufficient to cause this widespread drought. (Unless the Charr flame keepers are performing some sort of magical rituals that keep the air hot, but let's keep that theory for another time).

Thus, my only real alternative conclusion is that the crystals called down by the Searing are doing something to affect the weather; either by creating the heat conditions necessary to halt regular weather patterns, or by some other mystical means. If the crystals ARE generating an incredible amount of ambient heat, that would explain why no plants seem to grow in their immediate vicinity. However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I do remember coming across one crystal where this wasn't the case, so this is likely not the reason. I'd be interested to hear other people's theories on what exactly it is that the crystals are doing to the landscape.

[Barinthus]

However, it still doesn't explain the other effects of the searing and why it affected all of Ascalon. The Radius isn't even all around, the effects finish at the borders of Ascalon, a quick look at the map can tell you this.


I believe the borders of Ascalon are mountains so basically perhaps those mountains blocked the blast?


Zaxares, If you speak with Erudine the mesmer from Serenity Temple, you will note that she's studying the effect of Searing crystals on plant and animal life.

One of her quests for mesmers -


"Have you also been studying the local flora and fauna? I find the Storm Riders in particular to be quite fascinating. It seems that they exhibit powers and abilities not dissimilar to those a Mesmer might use. I have studied a few of the smaller species, and I believe their tissue might be put to some practical beneficial purpose. I would like to take a sample of a particularly large subject called Grenn Mindvenom, which I have seen near the large crystal in Pockmark Flats.

Will you collect the tissue sample for me?"

[Zaxares]

Thanks for that heads-up, Barinthus. That description doesn't explicitly state a link between the Storm Riders and the crystals, but it might be an interesting theory if they only showed up after the Searing. The first in a race of mutants? (Of course, the Storm Kin in the Crystal Desert have been there for hundreds of years, so the Storm Riders might just have migrated over the mountains. How they got past the Avicara and the Stone Summit, I have no idea.)

As promised, following are a couple of quick snapshots I took of some crystals in Ascalon. (Regent Valley, to be precise).

Crystal #1:
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/9602/searingcrystal13db.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=searingcrystal13db.jpg)
This is a typical Searing crystal. I chose this one because of the burning remains of the tree beside it. It's unclear how long said tree has been burning. Two years seems a big stretch...

Crystal #2:
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/5689/searingcrystal29bx.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=searingcrystal29bx.jpg)
This is another Searing crystal in Regent Valley. Notice the withered and dead remains of plants all around the crystal, and also notice that while the ground looks extremely dry, it does not exhibit obvious signs of combustion like the first crystal. It's possible that any fires in the area died out long ago.

Crystal #3:
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/2574/searingcrystal37jn.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=searingcrystal37jn.jpg)
This is the most puzzling one I've ever run across. OK, my initial declaration of 'a profusion of plant life' was obviously faulty memory, but if you compare the plants in this area to other examples of crystals, they do seem to be doing a LOT better than the others. Moss growth on the ground, climbing plants with broad leaves (a rarity to plants in arid regions)... What makes this crystal so special? Is it encouraging the plant growth? Are the effects of each crystal on its surroundings unique? Any ideas are welcome!

[Stardrake]

As for the Purple Crystals in the Desert, these could simply be coloured by the presence of another mineral in the crystal. As I am not a Geologist I can't comment too heavily on this, but I know that Rubies are actually red Sapphires, so I think it could be like that. However, if the Purple Crystals in the Desert are part of larger ones, it could still be a tenable link.


Strictly speaking, they're both impure samples of carborundum (Al2O3). Sapphires, followed by rubies, are just the most common - you can get yellow and purple samples as well (interestingly, these colours are referred to as 'oriental' - 'oriental topaz' and 'oriental amethyst' respectively - which implies something about where they can be found :wink:)

[Barinthus]

I wonder if those plants are found in Ascalon pre-searing? If not, perhaps it means something.

[Lazarus Dio]

Hmm.. some interesting developments. There does seem to be some evidence that the crystal have some sort of persisting effects on the region. It makes me think of nuclear incedents where the land becomes irradiated for quite a while and fallout can cause massive changes in weather such as "nuclear winter". Something along these lines could also account for changes and mutations in local flora and fauna. Perhaps these crystals are still emmiting some low level "magical radiation".

[Quintus Antonius]

Exactly. Two years is a long amount of time, insofar as biological cycles as concerned. While I do accept the plausibility of the theory that the extreme heat and devastation caused by the initial Searing killed off a lot of the plant and animal life, without something to keep that heat constantly present in the area, it's unlikely that the extreme conditions following the Searing would have persisted beyond a few months (or even weeks). In time, normal weather patterns would return, and precipitation should restore the ecological balance to its normal functions.

Since that has not happened, something must be stopping the weather cycles in Ascalon from returning to normal.

To my mind, the singular largest factor preventing the regrowth of normal plant life in Ascalon appears to be the distinct lack of precipitation. I'm no meteorologist, but from my limited knowledge, in order for this to occur, there must be a significant quantity of hot air centered above Ascalon that is forcibly pushing away the colder masses of air that normally bring rainclouds to a region.

And of course, to keep a region's air consistently hot, something needs to be generating an immense amount of heat. I doubt that the Charr's flame effigies, as numerous as they seem to be, is sufficient to cause this widespread drought. (Unless the Charr flame keepers are performing some sort of magical rituals that keep the air hot, but let's keep that theory for another time).

Thus, my only real alternative conclusion is that the crystals called down by the Searing are doing something to affect the weather; either by creating the heat conditions necessary to halt regular weather patterns, or by some other mystical means. If the crystals ARE generating an incredible amount of ambient heat, that would explain why no plants seem to grow in their immediate vicinity. However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I do remember coming across one crystal where this wasn't the case, so this is likely not the reason. I'd be interested to hear other people's theories on what exactly it is that the crystals are doing to the landscape.

Well, actually, considering that all the water was vaporized, it isn't surprising there isn't rain in Ascalon. For it to rain, there would need to be a constant influx of evaporating water in the clouds, going through the condensation cycle. There isn't, and thus, there is no rain. Also, the mountains surrounding Ascalon, would act as a natural barrier, sort of like the mountains surrounding most desert regions. They keep water from reaching the valley where the desert is. The weather fronts hit the mountains, releasing their contents, and never, or rarely, making it to the desert. You see, there may be nothing special at all about the crystals. Ascalon was just desertificated, and as such, follows the climatological patterns of a desert.

Also note the constant dark grey and red clouds over Ascalon. As previously suggested, these may be indicative of a nuclear winter-like effect that is keeping the Ascalonian region arid and desert-like, thus screwing up the natural climate patterns of the region.

Magic has nothing to do with it, beyond the intial trigger of the Searing. Still, the crystals probably do have some kind of charge. However, I'd suggest that instead of "magic" it is electromagnetical or radioactive. This is exactly why plants can't grow near the crystals. The harmful waveforms coming off of them are killing the plantlife. Still, to a culture in a Middle Ages esque setting, radioactivity and EM spikes would seem magical. The charge of the crystals, which would be causing the EM and radiation would also cause the crystals to have a charge that would attract constant lighting strikes from the greenhouse nuclear winter clouds.



Crystal #3:
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/2574/searingcrystal37jn.th.jpg (http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=searingcrystal37jn.jpg)
This is the most puzzling one I've ever run across. OK, my initial declaration of 'a profusion of plant life' was obviously faulty memory, but if you compare the plants in this area to other examples of crystals, they do seem to be doing a LOT better than the others. Moss growth on the ground, climbing plants with broad leaves (a rarity to plants in arid regions)... What makes this crystal so special? Is it encouraging the plant growth? Are the effects of each crystal on its surroundings unique? Any ideas are welcome!

Perhaps there is a mineral, such as lead, in the surrounding rock formations, that are shielding the plants from the harmful effects of the crystal.

Moss can enter a catatonic state if conditions are unfavorable and still retain its green look. That moss may not be actively growing. Also, ferns are well suited to the type of climate Ascalon has because they are low light, and low water plants. That is why those particular plants grow the most in the post-Searing Ascalonian region.

[Zaxares]

Well, actually, considering that all the water was vaporized, it isn't surprising there isn't rain in Ascalon. For it to rain, there would need to be a constant influx of evaporating water in the clouds, going through the condensation cycle. There isn't, and thus, there is no rain. Also, the mountains surrounding Ascalon, would act as a natural barrier, sort of like the mountains surrounding most desert regions. They keep water from reaching the valley where the desert is. The weather fronts hit the mountains, releasing their contents, and never, or rarely, making it to the desert. You see, there may be nothing special at all about the crystals. Ascalon was just desertificated, and as such, follows the climatological patterns of a desert.

Good point. The southern and western borders of Ascalon are indeed blocked off by mountain ranges, so that's a very possible scenario. Still, most raincloud formations are formed over the sea. Landlocked bodies of water such as lakes or rivers rarely have enough evaporation output to generate rainfall. (On any beneficial scale, that is). I still say that global weather patterns would have helped restore the Ascalon region to normality, if not from the west and south, then from other directions. We don't know what lies to the north, for instance; we have no idea what the Charr-held territory is like, and I doubt it's the same as Post-Searing Ascalon.

Of course, if the Searing did cause some sort of radioactive or EM fallout, that would help explain the persisting conditions, but I doubt this is a question we'll ever get answered based solely off in-game evidence. I doubt the effects are radioactive however. The majority of Ascalons that we meet don't seem to be unduly affected by the crystals' strange power. I don't know enough about the effects of EM waves on organisms to make a guess on it either.

I didn't know that about the moss able to enter a catatonic state. Again, based on the scarcity of evidence, it will be hard to prove or disprove our hypotheses either way. We can keep our eyes open, of course. :smiley:

[Quintus Antonius]

I try to think scientifically. I see something, and I analyze it based on known data, which has been tested an observed on Earth. I feel that ANet put a lot of thought into the game, and while somethings may be coincidental, I do believe ANet did think out a majority of the lore we are unravelling. It is truly a joy to introduce evidence that brings light to a situation; and I'm always glad to help.

[Arkhan The Black]

I would have to say it was some sort of meteor event because the impact hurled dust up in the atmosphere that still lingers there today. Maybe the Crystals already were in orbit but they used them all up in Ascalon?

[Barinthus]

One thought re: moss. It takes centuries for them to grow an inch if I recall correctly.

Also is it possible to take a screenie of a wmv film? Someone captured the cutscene of the Searing and I clicked pause on it until I was able to get a frame of a crystal just about to hit the ground. I wanted to post it but print screen did not work.

Any idea?

[Crayak]

Your mission if you choose to except it :cool: , is to go through The Great northern Wall mission [Postsear]. At the end when you are supposed to run away from all the charr...run past them instead and out into the Charr Army area. There you will find a giant black scarred earth area. IF none wants to i can do it when i get home from work. Its a very interesting area. Also a chest spawns out there..so bring a key =]
let me know the findings!

[Quintus Antonius]

One thought re: moss. It takes centuries for them to grow an inch if I recall correctly.



I believe you are recalling incorrectly. The bryophytic life cycle, which includes moss, is very efficent, and takes only a matter of days to completely under proper conditions. In other words, moss grows quickly.

[Lazarus Dio]

Your mission if you choose to except it :cool: , is to go through The Great northern Wall mission [Postsear]. At the end when you are supposed to run away from all the charr...run past them instead and out into the Charr Army area. There you will find a giant black scarred earth area. IF none wants to i can do it when i get home from work. Its a very interesting area. Also a chest spawns out there..so bring a key =]
let me know the findings!


ooh ooh ooh! I always wanted to do that! Maybe I'll do that today. I can wait to see just what is back there.

[Crayak]

ooh ooh ooh! I always wanted to do that! Maybe I'll do that today. I can wait to see just what is back there.

yea its pretty cool blackend earth and stuff. I almost made it to the Charr General before...but he just disappears =[

let me know what you think of the place!

[Arkhan The Black]

I just think it looks that way because you are not suppose to go there. It’s designed to look more like a dark shape on a great distant. I have been there myself and I don’t think the discolouration has anything to do with the searing.

[Barinthus]

I believe you are recalling incorrectly. The bryophytic life cycle, which includes moss, is very efficent, and takes only a matter of days to completely under proper conditions. In other words, moss grows quickly.


You're correct - I looked it up. Must have been thinking of lichen.

[False Visage]

There must be enough food for the Moas we see, but we don't see the young of any of the fauna in Tyria so it's hard to say whether they have reproduced or not. However, I find it likely that if there was not enough food a large part of the Moa would have starved by now, or would have been hunted off by Charr and or Humans searching for food.

And, although the Shiver Peaks do rim the Western edge of Ascalon, those we pass through coming from the area around Grendich Courthouse are reasonably untouched. Also, there is no snow melt or other forms of precipitation coming from them as well. If there had been a sudden heat wave, at least those near and facing Ascalon would have experienced some melting of the glacial ice.

A change in the Ascalonian Environment would have at least a minor effect on the closely surrounding areas. While we cannot access Pre-Searing Shiverpeaks I feel confident they have not experienced much climatic effect from The Searing.

I'm still convinced there is a persistent malign force concentrated on Ascalon.

[The Swords Master]

ok my theory, the charr fired these crystal mateor thing at key point in ascalon. The effect radius of each crystal was big but not enough to be devastating, so the charr fired the crystals at desinated targets so that their magical effect would over lap. For maximum effect the crytals didnt "magically explode" during impact, its more like a time bomb when all the crystals were in place the high arch mage of the charr(assuming he was the guy that fired the crystals) used another spell to detonate the crystals. The effect was drainging the land of life force, NOT literally burning it. Its called The Searing because that land is seared by the draining effect. Contributing the law of conservation of mass which states "matter cannot be created or destroyed only changed from one form to another" and assuming it works the same way with energy reinfoces the theory of charr actually HAVING a blood stone. think about it. The MURSAAT couldnt pull off something this big themselves, how can the crazy cat beasts?

[Docho]

Yes, and look what happened. The area where the spell was cast, and areas in Charr control were seared along with Ascalon. This, in my opinion, is an indication of the Charr ignorance in matters of searing magic, they simply didn't know what that spell would do. If they had attempted to cast another Searing spell to stop the superior force of the White Mantle, they would have had the advantage of hindsight, something the Charr who attacked Ascalon did not have. With this in mind, it is concievable that they were preparing another Searing spell to target Kryta, this time careful not to include the launch site and Charr advance forces in the damage radius.

Furthermore, to be fair, I never said they were casting a searing spell, I said that they were preparing to cast a searing spell. Those preparations are unknown to us, and could have been taking place in the Charr homeland, even if the spell itself was cast nearer to the frontlines, ala Ascalon.

Well, it seemed stupid to create again another thread about it so I post it here.
After wandering around a bit in Ascalon with my new Tyrian character I noticed something. The searing seemed to be quite a precise bombardement, I mean almost only the places where humans lived were hit hard by the crystals. Especialy Pockmark Flats seems to be completely destroyed. If I remember correctly, from the "E3 for everyone" that place in Pockmark Flats should have been where Kyhlo was. (see an old FUNCTIONAL!!! map from the E3 for everyone, you can click on the cities, outposts, etc:http://jerrith.com/GW/ss.htm). At the other hand lots have positions have changed on the map.
Kyhlo was probably a huge metropolian because various waepons are named after that place and it is also mentioned in the lore on the Guild Wars offical site.

The only place where a crystal fell North of the wall is I think the crystal next to Piken Square.

Off course this made me wonder why everything north of the wall look so bad than. Well, we saw already alot of buildings destroyed in Pre-Searing north of the wall, so the Charr themselves seem to destroy buildings.
Why the sky is also so red north of the wall is because smoke simply spreads, but in Diessa Lowlands the sky actually looks better than south of the wall...
Why is the north also dried op than? Well I can think of various reasons, during the searing there was alot of fire I guess, it doesn't seem impossible to me it spread to the north. Another reason is perhaps the lack of sunlight all the smoke of the searing caused, plants need sunlight to grow.

Could I be right?

[Quintus Antonius]

I moved your post from the previous thread to here, just to try to keep that thread on topic.

[Santax]

Yep, it sure sounds nice :wink:

I think too that the charrs might have acted alone on this one, cause there is so many proofs that chars are NOT just simple, stupid and savage as many others belive. I would say they are pretty clever fellas with strong attunement with magic and land combinied with their culture.. *sigh* I would like to join 'em :cry:
So I'm giving all my respects for them. Go get 'em boys! Nuke all the humans! :thumbsup:
The Charr lands would probably be most similar to what remains of Ascalon. Even the name "Charr" suggests that they burn everything. Don't get your hopes up.

Personally, I highly doubt the Charr acted alone in this. The Charr and the Ascalonians have been at war for hundreds of years, and the Wall had never once been breached before then. Vatlaaw Doomtooth seemed to inspire the Grawl to attack Ashford Village, but is thwarted by the player and Devona.

He escapes, but it is revealed to the player by Oberan the Reviled that Vatlaaw Doomtooth has been traversing The Catacombs to reach the other side of the wall. He infiltrates the Ascalon Academy, but with the help of the player Prince Rurik kills him. While all this is happening, the final preparations of The Searing spell are underway. Just as Vatlaaw Doomtooth is slain, Jaw Smokeskin, Red Eye the Unholy, Ghast Ashpyre and Blaze Bloodbane cast the spell that would destroy The Great Northern Wall and Ascalon once and for all.

If the Charr had been fighting the Ascalonians for so long, then why not just blow them up like they had in The Searing ages ago? There is more than one reason for this:
a) The Charr had begun recieving help or power from some third party that allowed them to destroy the Ascalonians
b) The Charr had discovered some kind of incredible destructive power that would allow them to destroy The Great Northern Wall
c) The Charr were looking for something, and somehow aquired a means to destroy the Wall.

Since the Charr went on to attack Kryta and Orr, I can safely conclude that they were looking for something, which rules out the first two possibilities. But that doesn't tell us what they were looking for.

On a side note, remember that the state of Ascalon today was not instantaeneous... although the Charr did cast the spell and knock down buildings, set much of the landscape on fire and generally burning stuff. All this about some plants surviving the magic of The Searing is simply because they weren't hit by the initial blast, and when the Charr invaded they simply didn't burn down that particular plant. The ide of The Searing was to find something/kill the Ascalonians, not to burn down the trees.

[Gmr Leon]

I think Vatlaaw Doomtooth may have found something in the Catacombs,a spell of sorts. They didn't know what it would do,so they made Vatlaaw search for something that would tell them. I think instead of being patient they ended up tired of waiting or knew he had gotten killed so they cast the spell.

Also,if there's an entrance to the Catacombs north of the wall would it be at all possible to find it after the Searing? I mean they may not have sealed off the Catacombs at all,just hid the only open entrance left.

[Quintus Antonius]

<snip>

c) The Charr were looking for something, and somehow aquired a means to destroy the Wall.

Since the Charr went on to attack Kryta and Orr, I can safely conclude that they were looking for something, which rules out the first two possibilities. But that doesn't tell us what they were looking for.

On a side note, remember that the state of Ascalon today was not instantaeneous... although the Charr did cast the spell and knock down buildings, set much of the landscape on fire and generally burning stuff. All this about some plants surviving the magic of The Searing is simply because they weren't hit by the initial blast, and when the Charr invaded they simply didn't burn down that particular plant. The ide of The Searing was to find something/kill the Ascalonians, not to burn down the trees.

Well, I do believe that the Searing killed most of the plant life in Ascalon rather quickly. Remember, it was called "the Searing", which means to burn off quickly with extreme heat. Most of the plantlife we see now grew back in the two years after the Searing.

However, I do agree with theory C you presented. The thing is, I think the Searing was very much like any conventional weapon on Earth, say, the A-Bomb. Why didn't the Americans just nuke the British in the Revolutionary War and not even have to deal with the War of 1812? Because the technology and knowledge to use and make that technology simply didn't exist yet. Same concept with magic. The Searing wasn't cast 200 years ago because the Charr did not have the ability or knowledge to use that particular force of magic, also, they probably didn't have a secure holding close enough to the Wall to attack to the fullest possible extent.

Another thing to consider is that the Charr, even if they were capable of doing it 200 years ago, wouldn't have wanted to because the time wasn't right. They attacked when they did because they needed to bring down the Wall to invade Ascalon, and onto Orr, while their second wing swept Kryta.

I believe evidence shows us a few things about the Charr and the Searing:
1) The Searing was Charr magic (no one gave it to them)
2) They were looking for something to complete the spell in the Catacombs (as you suggested)
3) They didn't fully comprehend what they were using--the Searing was meant to take down the Wall, like a cannon. Those crystals hit the wall, bringing it down, but something went wrong, and crystals pounded the Charr, as well as all of Ascalon, causing the Searing we know
4) All the above were derived from a sense of desperation: the Charr wanted to take over the world, and they had to do it quickly before the Guild Wars ended or one of the kingdoms caught wind of what was going on.

What we should be asking isn't who gave the Charr the Searing magic, I believe they developed it/discovered it themselves; we should be asking why the Charr's motive changed from claiming/conquering Ascalon (which they viewed as their territory) to completely destroying Ascalon and conquering the world. That, I believe, is where the third-party influence can be found.

[Acerbus Aether]

((This might be spoilerific.))This thread has brought me back to being obsessed with the lore of Guild Wars. My theory on this is that Valzaaw Doomtooth acquired something near the blocked off passage in the Catacombs, My memory's a little fuzzy about where you find him or dispatch him but I believe the Charr had gotten what they were looking for, something akin to the Ancient Weapon found in the Crystal Desert, they found the technology but had no knowledge of its use. I believe the searing was a sort of ''meteor shower''. When the ball of light is casted it dissapears and then the different sized crystals start to bombard the Great Wall, the Charr had unknowningly brought upon the searing as it is now, as their goal was probably to just bring down the massive defence.

And who I hopefully hear you ask is behind this? Not Glint, as she is skilled in certain magic, and the motive would be right,(To speed up the Prophecies) I believe the Lich had his grubby hand in the matter. The flaming effigies, believed to be Mursaat are, in my opinion, the Lich, and to some extent, the Titans.((There is a flaming effigy in Ruins of Surmia if you clear the Charr in the begining.))

The Lich((Vizier)) might've orchestrated the fall of Ascalon as to pave a path for the Charr to Orr as you have mentioned, for reasons I cannot say. I can speculate that the Vizier didn't like the current state of affairs in the City of the Gods and had also researched deep into dark magics and also learned of the Flameseeker Prophecies and existence of Titans. The Vizier might've had knowledge of the Elonians and the ancient weapons they had and might've even acquired one of the weapons, leaving it in the catacombs either through the blocked off tunnel or in a way of his own devising. He presented himself to the Charr as a leader and told them certain things about powerful magic, but not their full effect. He would've also have revealed the Titans.

ef·fi·gy Pronunciation Key (f-j)
n. pl. ef·fi·gies

1. A crude figure or dummy representing a hated person or group.
2. A likeness or image, especially of a person.

The Charr carved through Ascalon and onto Orr, sending a massive army to overtake it, the Vizier used powerful and forbidden magic to destroy Orr and the surrounding area,taking the Charr and the innocent, with him. The Lich and the Titans were hated for forcing the unknowing defilement of the land and for the destruction of so many Charr on Orr. The Charr were just your usual potential conquerors, they wanted to rule the land, the world even. But what kind of rule is it if all of the land is black and ravaged? The Charr only wanted to breach the wall, not to bring the black tar and the destroyed land. I agree with the cannon assumption of the Charr. They thought it would just destroy the wall some way and let the Charr pour into Ascalon to ransack, pillage, and conquer as they pleased.

As for why the Charr helped the cohorots of the Lich,(Read:Titans.)it was because the Titans endowed the Charr with increased power and maybe induced fear and awe into the ranks of the Charr. The Titans proceeded to recruit and assimilate the Charr forces and make them go from hit-and-run raids across the wall into Old Ascalon an Fort Ranik to fullly organized raids and attacks.

The Lich was the instigator of the Fall of Ascalon, he planted the technology, told tales about the secret weapon and ways to use it and then dissapeared, just in time for the Charr to reach Orr so he could put his plan in action and fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies

Feel free to criticise and comment. :grin:

- Casimir Belgarath I

[Karuro]

One major flaw with the above story, the Vizier didn't turn evil and become the Lich untill he blew up Orr with the forbidden scrolls. Next to that, the Charr would eat any human alive who entered their area =X

[Acerbus Aether]

The Vizier might've not been twisted in his death, some of the above is purely speculation as it is a theory. The Vizier might have been seduced by the power of things that cannot be achieved by simple mortality, and though the Charr would destroy any human they encountered, perhaps the Vizier could have influenced the Charr to leave him alone, and maybe even worship him, or the Titans. ((IE:I have bigger guns than you.))

- Casimir Belgarath I

[Quintus Antonius]

The Lich didn't exist when the Searing happened. End of story, it's been debated and debunked by TAOS almost a year now.

I do agree that the Charr were looking for something, found it, and created the Searing. I'm also convinced their were co-conspirtors in the matter (Oberon the Reviled, perhaps, and certainly the Grawl). Simple fact is, in my opinion, the Charr didn't know what they were unleashing. Certainly they wanted to bring down the Wall, but considering the area of effect of the Searing, I find it unlikely they would need to be positioned so close to the Wall as they were in pre-Searing Ascalon. If you ask me, I'd say the Charr thought they were just using some sort of magical "siege weapon", which is why they were so close; they simply didn't know that the spell would be so devestating. That said, the Searing still worked towards their advantage, as they did, in fact, breach the Wall and their "world invasion" was able to proceed.

[Virtuosik]

Hmm I never thought about the crystal desert like that before.

On an unrelated note, when you look into those little pools of water in the crystal desert, they sparkle! very pretty.

@ Quintus: How do we know the charr didn't fully comprehend how to use the magic? I don't remember seeing any charr being pounded by the explosions.

[Acerbus Aether]

I know the Lich didn't exit, the Vizier didn't die yet did he? And my theory is the same as your thoughts, the Charr didn't know exactly what they were doing, they were misinformed. In Further Adventures, you have to help Devona defend against grawl which are being led by a Charr boss, so the grawl might've been used as lower-ranked troops of the sort.

Edit: I feel like I keep digging myself deeper into a trench.Or something.

- Casimir Belgarath I

[Quintus Antonius]

@ Quintus: How do we know the charr didn't fully comprehend how to use the magic? I don't remember seeing any charr being pounded by the explosions.

So I take it you didn't play pre-Searing Ascalon then, or explore the areas effected by the Searing?

The Charr occupied all the land north of the Great Northen Wall by the time of the Searing, with the exception of the larger cities close to the Wall. Also, there was an on-going battle between the Charr and the Ascalonian forces at the same time as the Searing, not to mention the Charr who cast the Searing and the Charr in the area around the Searing too. And that's just the area we can see.

When the Searing was cast, all those Charr would have been caught in the Searing, as well as every Charr in the Searing's area of effect, which is everything, south and north of the Wall. At this same time, the Charr were gearing up for a full scale world invasion. Undoubtably, there were Charr forces wiped out too by the Searing because they simply didn't know what they were messing with. Unless of course wiping out siezable chunks of their forces, veteren forces experienced against combat with the Ascalonians, was a part of the plan.

[Acerbus Aether]

I did play through the pre-searing area, Quintis, and I played it through and through, I am also slightly insulted, but I think you meant no harm. I do not believe you are getting one of my points. The Charr did have the power and a large army capable of annexing Ascalon, Tyria and Orr, yet the Searing they unleashed bit both ways, I was theorising that the Vizier instigated that for his own purposes. Not the Lich, his predecessor, so to speak.

I rest my case.

- Casimir Belgarath I

[Quintus Antonius]

I wasn't quoting you in my last post, and therefore, I was not addressing your theory in my last post. Either way, you are right, I don't mean to insult anyone, and I apologize if I have.

Regardless, I do not think the Vizier had the means to motivate the Charr into doing anything. He was thousands of miles away.

Consider for a moment the fact that the Charr had been fighting Ascalon for 200-some years. The Charr simply took advantage of the Guild Wars to invade. They were opportunistic, and fueld by frustration, nothing more.

It was beyond the Vizier's means to do anything. He was only one man. Perhaps some of the other threads on the Charr and Vizier will be enlightening and of interest to you. I guarentee this has all been debated and debunked before.

[Acerbus Aether]

You are a very good adversary in this battle of wits Quintus. I'll give ya that, and it's alright I don't mind any constructive critiscm. He might be one man... but I still don't know. *Mindwarp*

/bow

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, I'm not the vice chair of the Tyrian Academy of Sciences and the moderator of the Lore Forums because I don't know my stuff ;)

That said, even if your theory is wrong, I still respect you as a person, and don't think I, in anyway, am against you. I hope you will use your insight in other places on the Lore Forums to further discussions. Right or wrong, there is never anything wrong with stimulating healthy academic debate and discussion.

Like I said, look at the other threads, if you haven't already. Maybe you'll see something you didn't before and have a whole new theory.

[Docho]

Well, something I want to comment about 'Charr casualties during the Searing'.

When having a quick look at the map of Post-Searing Ascalon I don't see much crystals north of the wall? I only remember one Crystal next to Piken Square... Or is my memory fading?

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, something I want to comment about 'Charr casualties during the Searing'.

When having a quick look at the map of Post-Searing Ascalon I don't see much crystals north of the wall? I only remember one Crystal next to Piken Square... Or is my memory fading?

The fact that the land is Seared is proof enough. Also, the land is disfigured and there are pockmarks and craters everywhere, not to mention the tar.

[Docho]

The fact that the land is Seared is proof enough. Also, the land is disfigured and there are pockmarks and craters everywhere, not to mention the tar.
But there is no idea why there are crystals in the south while there is only one crystal (or a few) to the north?

[Cealin De Rythia]

Quite possibly because while the Crystals hit where they were aimed, the backlash was much larger than expected, like Quintus said. All of Ascalon was Seared--the "ripple" of Searing might have stopped at the mountains in the east and south, but continued north for quite some ways.

[bloodtide]

Im confused, how do you apply scientific reasoning to magic. That seems a little difficult to me.

[Quintus Antonius]

Simply put, the laws of physics are universal. I don't care if you are summoning a Searing crystal, or moving a crate up a mountain. The Searing crystals had to come from somewhere, as energy can't simply be created, magick or not, and if something hits the ground at terminal velocity, there will still be shockwaves.

[Drec Sutal]

My personal theory of the searing is as follows.

The charr's original plan had been to roll Ascalon, Orr, then Kryta with little dificulty following the Guild Wars that just depleted the fighting forces of all three countries. They found, however, a stumbling block in ascalon's wall. Prehaps they didn't know about it, or just underestimated it's defensive abilities. Their plan relyed heavily on momentum, giving Orr and Kryta no time to ready themselves, so this was a serious problem. They got their break in Rin, or somewhere else outside the wall. They found, there, a great and forgotten magic being studied by humans, or locked up in a forgoten vault. The charr used this weapon that caused the searing in the hope of a simple and predictable result. Most likley they planed one small impact crater directly on the wall, northwest of ascalon perhaps near Rin. Once the wall and related defense was destroyed, the bulk of the charr army staged out of now destroyed Rin would rush the break and invade ascalon from there south, perhaps using additional targeted impacts on human staging grounds.

The charr, however, were rushed. They didn't have the time to explore the magic on a small scale and then scale up to a full-out assult. As such, they decided to use the magic with the greatest power they could muster, the chanting horde we see in the cutscene. Having not tested the magic before, they didn't realize that they were using far too much magic in it, made worse by their abilites in fire magic. Also as a result of both their lack of experiance with this spell and the huge ammount of magic they used they lost control, and the huge meteor they had summoned to take out a section of wall was not only so large as to destory them, but it was seriously flawed. This flaw caused it to break up on impact, exploding miles over ascalon. The imperfect nature of an uncontrolled flaw caused the crystal meteor to break up into chunks with no obvious pattern in size or frequency. The explosion over ascalon did in fact destory parts of the wall - but also most of the human kingdom of Ascalon and most of the army intended to roll into and hold Ascalon. This was a setback to the charr, but the armies intended for Orr and Kryta were allready on their way when Ascalon was destroyed. The Orrian army was destoryed by the invading charr when the viser caused the cataclysm, destorying Orr far more completly then Ascalon. The charr forces in Kryta were driven back by the Krytan army under the White Mantle after the Krytans fled to the jungle and recieved help from their unseen gods, the mursaat.

The forces that invaded kryta may not all have been killed, but any remains joined their fellows in Ascalon, and two years after the searing the charr had a big enough army to renew the invasion of Ascalon. The undoubtedly toxic or radioactive crystals, the fireball from the exploding crystal, and all related effects made Ascalon barley habitable for humans, but the charr, being fire-oriented anyway, didn't mind it that much, and needed the additional land even if it was fire-seared. Perhaps it was still better then the far north, and the titans that perhaps were found there?

As for where the magic came from, I find the connection to Glint to be overly contrived. Glint after all does help humanity out in the end... why give the charr a weapon to complete the prophesy if the world would just be the same (ish) in the end anyway? Where is the benifit to her? After all, if Glint can control space and crystals, why *only* her? Didn't the gods give everyone magic in the start, and only revoke it later, and isn't this revocation even now breaking apart? Why not have humans re-discover an additional branch of magic, perhaps in the academy at Rin, just as the charr arived?

As for large crystals in the desert, perhaps there was a searing there at one time? For there to be that much crystalin sand, it could have been ever worse then the searing, and long, long before the elonian outposts in the desert died, maybe the desert was created as a result of the abuse of magic that made the gods create the bloodstones, even.

Oh, and as for the massive energy of an object falling from space, recall terminal velocity, and once this was reached, maybe there was a giant fireball with lots of heat (while energy does indeed have to go somewhere, it can instead change form, from large scale transitional to heat)

(wow that was long)

[Quintus Antonius]

Good write up. There are only a few flaws with your facts. For instance, the Charr did know about the Great Northern Wall, as they had been fighting against it for 200 years since it was built.

Also, the White Mantle existed before the Searing, as evident by their banners flying at the Ascalon Academy.

Those are small things though, other than that, your facts seem solid, and you make good connections.

[Saravik Deathhand]

Moss can enter a catatonic state if conditions are unfavorable and still retain its green look. That moss may not be actively growing. Also, ferns are well suited to the type of climate Ascalon has because they are low light, and low water plants. That is why those particular plants grow the most in the post-Searing Ascalonian region.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but both mosses and ferns require a source of water to grow. Many mosses require water for their entire lives because they do not have a thick cuticle to contain the water and can easily lose much of what they take in. This is why mosses are commonly found in damp (or wet) places that have low light such as the north sides of trees and next to streams. The supply of water and lack of heat from the sun allow for the ecologically optimal grwoing conditions for mosses.

Ferns also require water for 2 reasons. The first is that the gamete producing stage of the fern life cycle (called the prothallus) is small and can be easily dessicated. Secondly the male gametes (sperm) produced by fern prothalli require water to swim to another prothalli for fertilization. Without an open source of water for the ferns to do this I cannot see how these ferns are able to survive.

Finnally when you are talking about moss taking on a catatonic state for periods of time I believe you are talking about lichens which are a fungus/algae conglamorate. These organisms are able to go into extended periods of dormancy which allow them to survive drought periods. When they recive water agian they will come back to life. This leads me to believe that the coloration in some parts of the Ascalon ground are actually a lichen ground cover which would be more likely to survive in the harsh environment that Ascalon has become.

Now seeing as how ferns are able to exist in Ascalon without the open source of water it leads me to believe that there must be a source of water somewhere near by. Where I could not tell you.

[Quintus Antonius]

Yeah, I'm not going to argue with you there Saravik. I just used the term "moss" to keep things relatively simple.

Well, since climates and time remain static in Guild Wars. It's possible it rains once and awhile, albeit rare. We also know that there is some water in Ascalon. After all, the people and animals survive, and there is a pool of water in the Hermit's cave.

[El Frosty]

personally the charr dont seem to be intelligent enough to have developed magc that is quite simply, that destructive. they seem to me to be a more primitive culture, much as cavemen, worshiping fire as some kind of god and showing only slightly better organisation than animals, for example the use of tools (charr carvings being proof that tools exist), and the magic used by the shamens of the charr being of a basic level (this being speculation, as we have no idea which spells are complex and which are simple)

given this, its a logical inferration that the charr have either been given, or stole, the magic from another party. this could have been humans, as we know that for the most part humans in guildwars can recognise when a power is too great and thus vow to never use it, but news of the charr stealing this magic would not be simply ignored, especially with the threat it obviously posed, unless of course the discoverers also knew not its power.

there is also glint. its obvious that she can see the future to some extent, and thus has presumably been dipping her hand into events in order to steer events towards a more desirable outcome. but why would she be responsible for destroying an entire city? it is possible that the prophecy would only come to light if the ascalonian hero's were forced to leave ascalon, and thus this would have spead things up.. agan this is pure speculation, the only evidance supporting this are the crystals in ascalon bearing a resembalence to the crystal desert (where glint lives, inside a tiny tiiny grain of sand).

regardless. the charr came across this magic, and used it, causing the crystal meteors (which obviously HIT the ground, regardless of how far they fell. collapsing the wall and allowing the charr to head south. the impact of the crystals, again regardless of how far they fell, would have sent out shockwaves, accounting for the collapsed buildings and such, and would have kicked large amounts of dust up into the air.

in my opinion the seared look of ascolon however, was a result not of the crystals, but more of the aftermath, when the charr swept through ascalon brutally murdering anyone who avoided being flattened by the crystals. where the char would have set fires raging and generally been having a right royal time of it.

as for the rivers of tar, the burning of the landscape would no doubt have melted any tar deposits near the surface, causing them to run ito the lakes and rivers creating the huge pits of tar we see now... maybe.. i dunno im tired.

[Quintus Antonius]

in my opinion the seared look of ascolon however, was a result not of the crystals, but more of the aftermath, when the charr swept through ascalon brutally murdering anyone who avoided being flattened by the crystals. where the char would have set fires raging and generally been having a right royal time of it.


I think you have to take into account though the name of the event, "The Searing" which literally means to burn off.

Also, the cinema shows the effect happening. Plus, the tarpits further prove it was the magicks of the Searing, not the Charr, that caused the look of post-Searing Ascalon.

Only blast heating the water could have caused the evaporation, and only blast burning the organic material and then applying great pressure could cause the tar to be created.

[Venice Queen]

Possibly the Undead lich gave the Orr the spell from the Cataclysm to produce the searing to put the prophecies into motion...

This could very well be what post-cataclysm Orr looks like, since we have no visuals of it.

[Gmr Leon]

Orr simply put sank,therefore we really can only see the edges of what fell to see if it did look like Post-Searing Ascalon. Again though,the Lich came into being after the Cataclysm. Which makes it completely impossible for him to have any hand in the Searing,end of story.

[Quintus Antonius]

While I really, and truly believe the Lich had absolutely nothing to do with the Searing, I do still think that someone or something helped the Charr.

The whole thing is just too convienant. I was thinking and running over some facts in my head--what if Menzies (think God of Destruction) helped out the Charr? Unleashing the Searing as well as unleashing the Titans would certainly keep Balthazar and co. busy, not to mention their followers on Tyria, long enough for him to renew aggressions in the Fissue (which he did). Plus, both are undoubtably fall under "destruction".

[Drec Sutal]

I'm not sure a war on earth would really matter that much in the fissure... after all, balthazar and all the old gods left long ago in the exodus. I'm just not sure a war in tyria would really draw balth's attention away from the fissure enough. Now grenth, maybe... after all, the souls that died in the cataclysm and searing came to him. The sudden strain of new souls could have distracted him enough for a little UW war, but we really don't know enough of grenth's role in taking care of dead souls to say for sure. Could the spell the charr found have been planted? Sure, but I havn't met the person I'd belive for sure did it yet.

My theroy is still that the charr found something quite accidentally outside ascalon, hurried to use it and screwed up big time.

As for the cataclysm being the same spell as the searing... no. The cataclysm first of all was after the searing had begun, and second was started by a human, not the charr.

[Arctus Redryn]

While I really, and truly believe the Lich had absolutely nothing to do with the Searing, I do still think that someone or something helped the Charr.

The whole thing is just too convienant. I was thinking and running over some facts in my head--what if Menzies (think God of Destruction) helped out the Charr? Unleashing the Searing as well as unleashing the Titans would certainly keep Balthazar and co. busy, not to mention their followers on Tyria, long enough for him to renew aggressions in the Fissue (which he did). Plus, both are undoubtably fall under "destruction".

What about the Titans?

In the quest The Last Day Dawns, there are Charr Lords working with the Titans. In addition, the Titan source is in the north, thus fairly close to the Charr homelands.

[Quintus Antonius]

Well, the problem there is that the Titans are more or less locked away. I don't think they had the means to influence the Charr. Religiously? Absolutely. I think the Titans had the means to contact the Charr, but in terms of giving them magickal incantations that destroy entire regions? I'm not sure.

Although, I must admit, it's definantely plausible.

[Arctus Redryn]

Why could not the advisor of the King of Orr (Vizier Kilbron) have given the Searing magic to the Charr?

Before the Searing, Vizier Kilbron (who thus far has not become the Lich) gives the Charr the Searing magic, knowing the Charr will use it to destroy Ascalon and probably attack Kryta and Orr, given the weakened states of the human kingdoms as a result of the guild wars. With the destruction of the human kingdoms, the Vizier is therefore in command of Tyria, and the Charr becomes his attacking force. Ascalon does fall, and the Vizier uses magic like the Searing magic to destroy Orr, using the Charr attack as the reason. Kryta, however, survives because of the White Mantle, who are supported by the Mursaat. However, the Vizier (who is now the Lich) still has a way to destroy Kryta and the Mursaat...by getting the Sceptor of Orr, releasing the Titans, and commanding them to destroy the Mursaat and (with help from the Charr) destroy the remaining humans, leaving the Lich in command of the Titans and the Charr and therefore of Tyria, exactly what the Vizier was going for.

This would explain why the Vizier helps you get the Sceptor of Orr to him. In addition, this would explain why he helps you Ascend, because once you Ascend you can battle the Mursaat and help the Vizier release the Titans. Therefore, what the Vizier has done is use you to get the Sceptor of Orr and at the same time defeat the Mursaat and release the Titans.

I probably missed something, however...

[Quintus Antonius]

The Catacylsm is not dependant on the Searing, or vise versa. If the Vizier hadn't opened that scroll, some janitor probably would have with the same results. The Vizier didn't need to set anything into motion with the Charr to open the scroll. He could have done it just as easily before the Searing.

I just don't see how the man would influence a group of human hating cat-people thousands of miles away, when he was just a mere man. Don't you think Ascalonians would notice an Orrian vizier walking around the Northlands with the Charr? How'd he get past Kryta and the Dwarves of the Shiverpeaks? Why is there absolutely no reference to him before the Maguuma Jungle?

[Drec Sutal]

What about the titans?

The lich released them into Ascalon, among other places, when he created the portals.

As for theorys of prior worship (burning idols, exe) well... for the titans to be bound, they must have once been unbound, and religions don't tend to dissapear just because their root has (look at christianity... Jesus has been gone 2000 years and we still have idols of him, and will for the foreseeable future). Perhaps the charr and the titans once shared teritory. When the titans returned, maybe they remembered the charr in a subservient role, or perhaps the charr leaders reminded them... "hey, we're your servents and we're going to bring you lots of sacrifices, oh returned gods!"

[Arctus Redryn]

The Catacylsm is not dependant on the Searing, or vise versa. If the Vizier hadn't opened that scroll, some janitor probably would have with the same results. The Vizier didn't need to set anything into motion with the Charr to open the scroll. He could have done it just as easily before the Searing.


Had the Vizier read the scrolls before giving the Searing magic to the Charr (assuming for the moment that he did give the magic to the Charr), only Orr would have been destroyed. What then? Ascalon and Kryta would be asking what happened to Orr and probably end the guild wars and become defensive, should something happen to them. This would not make it easier for the Vizier to destroy Ascalon and Kryta.



I just don't see how the man would influence a group of human hating cat-people thousands of miles away, when he was just a mere man. Don't you think Ascalonians would notice an Orrian vizier walking around the Northlands with the Charr? How'd he get past Kryta and the Dwarves of the Shiverpeaks? Why is there absolutely no reference to him before the Maguuma Jungle?

The humans would not notice...they are focused on their guild wars. Even if there had not been the guild wars, who would think a King's advisor as having an evil plan? As for the Dwarves, it seems King Jalis Ironhammer knows about the Vizier. And to travel from Orr to the Charr homelands, the Vizier could go through the Crystal Desert and through Ascalon. In addition, what about the underground passages between Orr and Ascalon...I seem to remember there was some discussion about that?



...bound, they must have once been unbound...


The Bentusi... :smiley:

[Quintus Antonius]

I think you need to produce some serious evidence to get me anywhere near on-board with this theory. =P

[Arctus Redryn]

I think you need to produce some serious evidence to get me anywhere near on-board with this theory. =P

Hm...it just seems that people assume the King's advisor was just another person, but as far as I know, there is no proof of that. Of course, there is a lot of Lore, and I probably have missed something.

[Quintus Antonius]

To me, the Vizier doesn't seem like a bad person before the Cataclysm. I think he was just geniuenly desperate to push back the Charr and ended up saying some things he shouldn't have (ie reading the scroll). There really isn't any information on him either way though.

[Drec Sutal]

As far as I know, the king's advisor *was* just a normal person before using the magic that destroyed Oor. I'd never belive he gave the charr a weapon when lore indicates he thought he'd save Oor by using his magic... otherwise why wait for the charr? Why destory Oor at all, when the charr were about to destroy it anyway? Why not just "give the searing magic to the charr" invading Oor, instead of destroying a huge part of the continent you think he wanted to rule, including the city of the gods, the perfect place for his throne?

It just seems that if the vizer intended to rule tyria, he wouldn't have sunk the best city, when the charr would have taken out all opposition there anyway, and anything that was left would crumble before the titans.

[Arctus Redryn]

As far as I know, the king's advisor *was* just a normal person before using the magic that destroyed Oor. I'd never belive he gave the charr a weapon when lore indicates he though he'd save Oor by using his magic... otherwise why wait for the charr? Why destory Oor at all, when the charr were about to destroy it anyway? Why not just "give the searing magic to the charr" invading Oor, instead of destroying a huge part of the continent you think he wanted to rule, including the city of the gods, the perfect place for his throne?

It just seems that if the vizer intended to rule tyria, he wouldn't have sunk the best city, when the charr would have taken out all opposition there anyway, and anything that was left would crumble before the titans.

Actually, the Lore found in the Manuscripts were written by a Tyrian historian, who would probably not know what the Vizier was planning.

As for giving the Searing magic to the Charr, I would not consider what happened to Ascalon better than the fate of Orr.

And, did the Vizier even respect the city, seeing as the Mursaat built temples to them? (The Vizier is against the Mursaat.) In addition, honoring that city would be admitting there are those who are above him and who he should respect...something not in keeping with the Vizier.

I think for now, we will have to agree to disagree...time and Elona might provide more knowledge.

(I should note that it would be cool if there were books in Tyria, as in Morrowind.)

[ShadowReapr]

I find the idea that the Vizier might do something like that quite ridiculous, considering their own circumstances. First and foremost, almost all the lore in the game alludes Orr to be quite peaceful, victims of circumstance. The Manuscripts told us how they only took place in the Guild Wars because they had to take action to avoid their own bloodshed.

Furthermore, the Vizier did what he did out of religious insanity. The thought to him of the Charr desecrating the very ground the Gods walked on disgusted him so much he took the last resort - the forbidden scrolls, locked away down below. There is no way he would do something that would destroy the very city he tried to protect. I have seen nothing that might allude to the fact that the Vizier would help the Charr.

Now, where the Charr got the Forbidden Magic. Hmm, let's see:

Forbidden Magic in underground Orr... Forbidden Magic in underground Ascalon... Orr... Ascalon... Orr... Ascalon...

Needless to say, it's likely they were locked away for a reason, scattered to prevent the horrible damage they possessed. But who put them there? I think perhaps King Doric. I get a feeling he knew of the powers of these terrible scrolls, and did his best to hide them around the same time he pleaded to the Gods. So, picture this: He rules over three kingdoms, that of Kryta, Orr and Ascalon (and, considering the supposed effects of the Sorrow's Furnace's Tome of the Rubicon, this is another one of the hidden scrolls, but the only one the Dwarves knew of), and in order to make sure these scrolls were never utilised by the Royalty he knew would proceed him, he locks one of each of the kingdoms.

But how many of these scrolls are there all together? Based on the kingdoms, I would reckon 4. Here's a theory based on nothing but guess-work and logical theorisation, I think there may be a scroll for each school of magic: Preservation, Destruction, Agression and Denial. Needless to say, we've seen destruction and agression, but Denial and Preservation? Go with me on this:

I mentioned earlier that perhaps the Tome of the Rubicon was one of the Forbidden Scrolls. In it is the name of the Great Dwarves nemesis, whose name may not be spoken. This is because only by this can they prevent him from his powers. Or in other words: Deny him.

It's a loose shot, I guess, but based on the Sorrow's Furnace's location underground, it seems likely, especially since how close it is to several key Deldrimor fortifications.

But where is Kryta's own special Forbidden Scroll? One of the great half-solved mysteries of the game is just what is behind that door that Rotscale is protecting? If Rotscale isn't a testament to preservation, it's a testament to a healthy diet.

But why did he not ask the Gods to destroy these scrolls too? Heck knows, perhaps it's because even he didn't know what they did. Either way, he placed one in each kingdom, telling each King that they each had a forbidden scroll, that could cause immeasurable death and destruction to the world. Why? The kingdoms would find them anyway, so he's just locked each kingdom into an eternal Cold War, except without the comfortability that their personal nuke would work.


Enough of the actual scrolls, and more about the Mystical Crystals of DOOM. Based on the points made throughout the thread, it's quite clear that these didn't come from space. Let's face it, even in the real world crystals are seen as magical things, so it's quite possible that they were summoned from The Mists, and as such from anywhere. It's possible that they summoned the crystals unwillingly from the Crystal Desert, but it doesn't mean Glint masterminded the whole thing (though, and this is offtopic, I had a random chuckle of the possibility of Glint's sand-dimension ending up in Ascalon. Anti-climatic, no?). It's clear that they fell from quite a height because of the way the earth has shifted, leaving several buildings on obscure angles, however.

PS. Another idea involving the scrolls has popped into me head. The Titans, even if inactive at the time of the disasters, could have placed these scrolls in the locations. It would explain why they weren't destroyed or removed by the Gods (they being hidden and all); why the Charr managed to find one; and more importantly why the Vizier, along with being consumed with immeasurable despair and guilt, was turned into the Lich.

[Vasha Lien]

Blah Blah Blah

The Charr caused the searing.

"The Searing is the name given to the event during which giant, burning crystals brought about by powerful Charr magic landed on the once beautiful land of Ascalon and turned it to red dust and rock. Once the embers settled the Charr were able to overcome the Great Northern Wall and march through Ascalon, Kryta and Orr."

Guild Wiki is your friend...Or cutscenes. The searing cutscene clearly showed a charr summoning the crystals.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:SearingCharr.JPG

And to the people blaming the Vizier, read up on the lore!
The Vizier destroyed Orr to protect them from the charr.
And Kryta? The White Mantle and Mursaat drove them away.

I'll even be nice and link the wiki article that explains everything.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Searing



EDIT: And to the poster above me, no one asks the Old Gods to do anything anymore because the Gods abandoned Tyria. This is why you hear people like Evennia talking about the gods who abandoned Tyria.
Another link.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods

[Quintus Antonius]

Considering that the poster above you was refering to a time when the Old Gods were still on Tyria, I don't think your attitude was necessary.

Other than that, very interesting theories everyone. And ShadowReapr, you may want to start a new thread dedicated to some of what you were saying. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but I don't want to drag this thread off topic by discussing some of the finer points, if you know what I mean.

My personal opinion, as stated before in this thread, is that the Charr came up with the actual Searing spell by themselves, but it was based on something they found. I think they rushed into using it because the Guild Wars had entered a period of stagnation and they knew their window for blitzkrieg was closing. They didn't fully understand it, and thus, when they set it off, we see the results now.

[Gmr Leon]

I know this is about the Searing,but I didn't really think there would be a reason to make another topic about this question. What would have happened had the Vizier never found the Forbidden Scroll that set off the chain of events leading to the fulfillment of the Flameseeker Prophecies?

Some things we know would still be going on:

The civil war between the Dwarves would still be going.
The White Mantle would most likely still exist.
The Mursaat would continue killing Chosen.
Ascalon would still be trying to push back the Charr.
The Shining Blade would probably still be fighting against the White Mantle.
The Stone Summit's leader,Dagnar Stonesplitter,would still be alive.

Things that wouldn't have happened are many,really,but I think it's pretty interesting to look at what would have happened if someone didn't do something..

[Quintus Antonius]

I think Rurik would still end up leading a spliter group out of Ascalon, or at least, away from the Wall. Remember, if it wasn't for the Searing and Cataclysm, the Charr would still have a HUGE army. They may still have swept down against Kryta, Ascalon, and Orr, only in a different fashion.

[Drec Sutal]

Without the searing I think Ascalon would still have been wiped out, but the time it took the charr to fight them may have given Oor time to do something before the charr arrived, and certainly Kryta could have wipped up a better army without the mursaat, given time. Also, Ascalon would have been less fully destroyed, and a bigger group would have made it out, perhaps in time to fall back to Oor and help them enough to prevent the vizer from causing the cataclysm. Who knows though, really...

[JohanOwnz]

Based on what I have read here and what I believe I think that the searing was caused by the charr's "Forbidden scroll". There might have been any number of these scrolls which could definitely unleash different effects. As for the effigys that the charr had in pre-searing, they looked like the Titans. Since the "searing" implies that it happened with fire and the Ring of Fire housed the titans, it could be possible that the charr called the power of their forbidden scroll in the searing, which brought the "power of the titans" a.k.a. the crystals down onto ascalon.

This also leads me into believing that all of the forbidden scrolls were formed and derive their power from the Ring of Fire. Also, the portals through which the Lich was leading the titans into the rest of Tyria could reflect the regions of Tyria in which the scrolls are kept.

Anyway, those are just some ideas I had. Feel free to comment.

[Quintus Antonius]

If they used a "Scroll" why did they need a summoning platform and mages to watch over the ritual?

I don't buy that.

[El Frosty]

actually i got the impression the portals used by the litch were somehow connected to the bloodstone circle thingys (wow, way for me to blow all hopes of sounding knowlageable in one phrase). we get told there are 5 of them through the lands of tryia, and the litch is using one himself in the ring of fire, leaving 4 somewhere else, all tied together mystically.

but that has bog all to do with the searing now does it :-p

Its clear that popular consensus is that the char cocked up somehow while casting the searing spell. so, if this is the case, then you can infer that the char were using magic that was beyond there comprehension. if it wasnt, they would no doubt know what the spell was capeable of.

as for the litch assisting the char, i cant think of any reason why he would, being as all this happened before the destruction of orr, and before the litch really had any ambition to conquer the lands of tyria. i think most likely the spell came from some other source, most likeley stolen, rather than given freely and with intent.

[Arctus Redryn]

I find the idea that the Vizier might do something like that quite ridiculous, considering their own circumstances. First and foremost, almost all the lore in the game alludes Orr to be quite peaceful, victims of circumstance. The Manuscripts told us how they only took place in the Guild Wars because they had to take action to avoid their own bloodshed.


Orr may be peaceful, but persons within Orr can be very different.



Furthermore, the Vizier did what he did out of religious insanity. The thought to him of the Charr desecrating the very ground the Gods walked on disgusted him so much he took the last resort - the forbidden scrolls, locked away down below. There is no way he would do something that would destroy the very city he tried to protect. I have seen nothing that might allude to the fact that the Vizier would help the Charr.


Keep in mind that the Manuscripts were written by a Tyrian historian, probably a secondary source at best. What you just said would be the easiest way to explain why the Vizier read from the Forbidden Scrolls. However, how would a Tyrian historian know about a plan that, given its implications, probably only the Vizier knows, and whose said implications extend beyond the time of writing of the Manuscripts? (IF, and I know it is a big IF, the Vizier had a plan as in my theory, then the implications would involve the Flameseeker Prophecies, which you remember were fulfilled after the Manuscrpts were written.)

Just trying to look at the lore from a different perspective...I accept that I could be completely wrong, but at the moment there is not enough information to prove or disprove my theory, as my arguments and those of my opponents are largely developed through logic.

[Ranger Nietzsche]

mmmm WELL, I personally believe that the charr had access to one of Lord Odran's portals.

One of my personal favorite bits of Lore trivia comes from the breif mention of the "Tombs of Drascir" in Lore article #6 about Devona and crew.

The article describes a journey into the HoH very similar to that of our heroes experience in original Prophecies HOH entrance (Tombs) with an exception that it refers to the Tombs devona and crew enter as the Tombs of Drascir.

One may claim simple double names here, except that in-game tells us that Prince Rurik and King Adlebern are both from Drascir, and that Drascir is at north of Surmia. You actually travel there during the mission. Drascir is the place that has the academy whose portal you use to teleport to Nolani. This means Drascir is probably under Charr control during the presearing times.

There is debate as to whether its just two places with the same name. I believe they are the same.

If true, this places a possible entrance to the hall of heroes (and thus an Odran portal) within charr territory, but also relatively close to Ascalon city.

Since these portals access many parts of the rift the charr I believe summoned the Searing through the portal, though I agree with QA that they were unaware of its power.


***Pet theory, the Charr summoned a lvl 99 Black Mage from the Final Fantasy universe who simply cast Meteorga III.

[Camaris Spectre]

Nice. The link to the E3 map priceless.

A few notes:

*most* Grains of sand are crystals. Maybe the ones in the Crystal Desert are prettier.

Although large single crystals (as opposed to polycrystaline "rock") may have occasionally have some interesting thermal and electrical properties; they have no intrinsic "energy" or "electricity" compared with normal materials.

The electrical discharges could simply be the crystals acting as lightning rods in an obviously turbulent atmosphere. They could also be an indication that the crystals do indeed contain a magical power and their purpose was more than just to squash whatever they landed on.

To me the crystals look like something the Mursaat would use. I'm not suggesting the Mursaat where involved, but maybe the technology found by the Charr was Mursaat related.

The water has to have gone somewhere. "Vaporized" simply means turned to water vapor, which is entirely plausible. If so, the cloud cover over Ascalon is indeed water vapor and not entirely dust. I can think of no natural explanation as to why it would not have started raining down after things cooled down (see next point). If it was not vaporized it must have a) been converted to oxygen and hydrogen; b) been chemically bound up in the soil or tar; c) been forced elsewhere (underground, rained over Elona).

Personally, I believe that the water was indeed vaporized and held in the atmosphere as the thick cloud cover seen in most parts of Ascalon. I suspect an unnatural force was at play here because of the first thing that happens after the great horn Stormcaller is sounded.

I think that the sounding of Stormcaller is more significant than the mission cut scenes would have you believe. I believe that the searing's lingering effect on Ascalon was broken at that point and the land is on the verge of a recovery (slow to be sure). If we could visit Ascalon in 5 years, I suspect that it would be surprisingly green. It’s too soon to tell if it will be Charr or Ascalons enjoying the newly green fields of Regent Valley..

[Zion Farbow]

dont ferget the chosen are in both kingdoms and the vizier wanted to lure the ascalonians out and into kryta..where they will inspect for even more chosen O_O

[ShiningDrLight]

Bloodstones: 5 in all of the land of Tyria, or 5 in total in the world of Tyria?

[Endamir]

5 in all the land of Tyria. Tyria is the name of the continent.
As a matter of fact do we even know the name of the whole world from the GW reality?? I don't recall atm if it was mentioned anywhere.

[Cealin De Rythia]

Tyria is the name of the continent, and the world @_@

[Quintus Antonius]

Nice. The link to the E3 map priceless.

A few notes:

*most* Grains of sand are crystals. Maybe the ones in the Crystal Desert are prettier.

Although large single crystals (as opposed to polycrystaline "rock") may have occasionally have some interesting thermal and electrical properties; they have no intrinsic "energy" or "electricity" compared with normal materials.

The electrical discharges could simply be the crystals acting as lightning rods in an obviously turbulent atmosphere. They could also be an indication that the crystals do indeed contain a magical power and their purpose was more than just to squash whatever they landed on.

To me the crystals look like something the Mursaat would use. I'm not suggesting the Mursaat where involved, but maybe the technology found by the Charr was Mursaat related.

The water has to have gone somewhere. "Vaporized" simply means turned to water vapor, which is entirely plausible. If so, the cloud cover over Ascalon is indeed water vapor and not entirely dust. I can think of no natural explanation as to why it would not have started raining down after things cooled down (see next point). If it was not vaporized it must have a) been converted to oxygen and hydrogen; b) been chemically bound up in the soil or tar; c) been forced elsewhere (underground, rained over Elona).

Personally, I believe that the water was indeed vaporized and held in the atmosphere as the thick cloud cover seen in most parts of Ascalon. I suspect an unnatural force was at play here because of the first thing that happens after the great horn Stormcaller is sounded.

I think that the sounding of Stormcaller is more significant than the mission cut scenes would have you believe. I believe that the searing's lingering effect on Ascalon was broken at that point and the land is on the verge of a recovery (slow to be sure). If we could visit Ascalon in 5 years, I suspect that it would be surprisingly green. It’s too soon to tell if it will be Charr or Ascalons enjoying the newly green fields of Regent Valley..

I agree, I think Ascalon is in the process of recovery and will be green again eventually. However, the toll on the natural wildlife is amazing. I doubt that it will ever be the same way that it was pre-Searing again.

Still, good little write up. I think you are definitely correct in the things you've said.

[Gmr Leon]

Now there's just that little question of...how the heck did Stormcaller work? I'll go with magic for the Lore;but I'm just curious as to how they just so happened to have something built for an item that may not have even existed or ever been found.

[Quintus Antonius]

Now there's just that little question of...how the heck did Stormcaller work? I'll go with magic for the Lore;but I'm just curious as to how they just so happened to have something built for an item that may not have even existed or ever been found.

Can you clarify what you are asking, Leon?

[lavenbb]

There is a structure on which you place stormcaller on when Rurik blows it. He's asking if the stormcaller was some sort of lost artifact then why would there be a structure build specifically for it, at exactly the right place.

[AshG]

Given the connection between the academies at Nolani and Surmia, I think it makes sense for Rurik to have found the mouthpiece to Stormcaller at Surmia.

With the ability to create a teleport between the two, it basicly put the mouthpiece "in the next room" should it be needed while making it extremely difficult for an outsider or invader to use the weapon. It may even have been rotated between several locations in order to protect it.

I started thinking of that option after finding a very similar circular floor pattern in Arborstone in a rather isolated area off to the side of the cathderal. While I don't think there is a HzH/Ascalon connection, I do think that the teleportation magic/tech is more proliferated than is readily visible.

So, really, I don't think it's one of those "Ooh! Look! Nifty plot device!" issues that asks us to suspend more of our disbelief. Handy placement, yes, but not an out-of-reach plot device.

Kindof off topic... I still get tingly every time I see the Stormcaller sequence. Being a tuba player, I'd love to get my hands on an alphorn of that magnitude! My 5/4 CC just can't do enough damage anymore...

[Arctus Redryn]

In response to how the Stormcaller works, I took its effect of bringing rain to Ascalon as the way to defeat the Charr. The rains would extinguish the Flame Temples, from which the Charr draw, at least morale, and at most magical strength. I could be wrong though.

Camaris Spectre mentions an interesting idea...what if the Mursaat gave the Charr the Searing ability? Knowing the Charr would attack Ascalon given their rivalry and Ascalon's weakened state, this would have the probable effect of destroying the Ascendants from Ascalon (Ascendants from Ascalon were prophecized, right?), something that would be favored by the Mursaat, seeing as the Prophecy predicts that the Ascendants would help fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies...which results in the Lich's release of the Titans and the destruction of the Mursaat.


The subsequent Charr attack on Orr would result in the Vizier reading from the Forbidden Scrolls. Once he became the Lich, he could then follow through with my other theory for domination of Tyria through use of the Ascendants and Titans, which would explain his opposition of the Mursaat, given that they want to destroy the Ascendants AND that they have the Scepter of Orr. Had the Mursaat destroyed the Ascendants and retained the Scepter of Orr, the Lich would have lacked both critical elements to his plan. This would completely remove the need for the Vizier having a plan before the Charr attack (which is an idea that seems to be unfavorable here...).

[Quintus Antonius]

There is a structure on which you place stormcaller on when Rurik blows it. He's asking if the stormcaller was some sort of lost artifact then why would there be a structure build specifically for it, at exactly the right place.

It was lost in the two years since the Searing. Odds are they knew where it was before the Searing, possibly even moved it once the intial stages of the Searing hit. After that, the people who tended to it were probably killed, either in the Searing or the war afterwords, making the mouthpiece to Stormcaller essentially "lost".



Camaris Spectre mentions an interesting idea...what if the Mursaat gave the Charr the Searing ability? Knowing the Charr would attack Ascalon given their rivalry and Ascalon's weakened state, this would have the probable effect of destroying the Ascendants from Ascalon (Ascendants from Ascalon were prophecized, right?), something that would be favored by the Mursaat, seeing as the Prophecy predicts that the Ascendants would help fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecies...which results in the Lich's release of the Titans and the destruction of the Mursaat.


So the Mursaat, who are intimately familiar with the Prophecies, which also mention the Searing, caused the events, which these same Prophecies also said would wipe them out? Oh yes, and they helped the people who worship their enemies in the process.

I find that highly unlikely.

[Nanashi]

So the Mursaat, who are intimately familiar with the Prophecies, which also mention the Searing, caused the events, which these same Prophecies also said would wipe them out? Oh yes, and they helped the people who worship their enemies in the process.

I find that highly unlikely.

Why not? If you know your weakness wouldn't you do everything in your power, if you were a lord of a powerful group, to rid that weakness and make you stronger. In the end your ideal goal would be that once that weakness is erased then you shall never be defeated. Of corse we've seen too many movies like this so given your situation you already know how it's going to end thus don't believe that was their intentions. I on the other hand, haveing seen this in so many stories of all sorts, can't blame them for trying. xD

On a different matter...

Wasn't there a roomer that the Mursaat were good. I seem to recall Gaile at one meeting, where the official news of Factions first came to be, she commented on questioning the Mursaat's loyalty. Toobad I can't remember it word for word but the basic idea that I gathered from it was that the Mursaat were not as evil as Glint and the Seers claimed them to be. All I remember is on TS me and my friends were sitting there trying to get some info on Factions and input our own questions for some answers when Gaile said something about them that made us go whoa.

[Arctus Redryn]

So the Mursaat, who are intimately familiar with the Prophecies, which also mention the Searing, caused the events, which these same Prophecies also said would wipe them out? Oh yes, and they helped the people who worship their enemies in the process.

I find that highly unlikely.

I think you misunderstood my post...Ascendants were prophecized to emerge from Ascalon. These same Ascendants were prophecized to fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecy, which would bring with it the destruction of the Mursaat. Knowing all of this, the Mursaat preemptively enabled the Charr to use Searing magic on Ascalon in the hopes of destroying the Ascendants-to-be.

[Quintus Antonius]

I think you misunderstood my post...Ascendants were prophecized to emerge from Ascalon. These same Ascendants were prophecized to fulfill the Flameseeker Prophecy, which would bring with it the destruction of the Mursaat. Knowing all of this, the Mursaat preemptively enabled the Charr to use Searing magic on Ascalon in the hopes of destroying the Ascendants-to-be.

But see, destroying someone's homeland is the perfect reason for someone to leave said homeland. The Mursaat are not that stupid. Plus, now the Charr have a powerful magick they can use on the Mursaat if they so choose (and probably tried). It would make more sense to, under your scenario, to give the humans of Ascalon the power of Searing magick in order to wipe out the Charr and make it so they have to stay right where they are.

Also, if such was the case, we'd expect to see Mursaat effigies before the Searing, as the Charr would have been like "Oh snap, these here golden floaters gave us some powerful sh-tuff," but instead we find Titan effigies near the Searing alter, suggesting that the Titans were the ones who influenced the Charr and possibly had some influence on the Searing.

It just isn't logical for the Mursaat to have given the Charr the Searing power, nor is it supported by the facts. Plus, if the Mursaat had this power, why didn't they use it again? Instead of rooting through the jungle to find the Shining Blade, why didn't they sear it, or the Southern Shiverpeaks, why not sear that? Obviously the Mursaat would have more control over the searing magicks than the Charr would, if they had given it to them, yet instead, they fight a war with the Charr hand-to-hand. Why didn't they just give the White Mantle searing magicks? Because they don't have that kind of magick to give away.

[El Frosty]

The titans gave them the searing magic? would that even be remotly possible, cuz i got the impression titans weren't too smart, and were, rather just animated shock troops (although i might be wrong)

also, maybe the party responsible for the searing did try to set about the events in order to stop the flameseeker prophecies from coming to light, and in a paradoxial twist, the very thing it was intended to prevent was instead set into motion by the act of the searing. we already know the mursaat were influcing the white mantle to kill the chosen in order to prevent the prophecies from coming true, and in a similar vein, if the white mantle were not killing chosen there would have been no reason for the player's party to switch allegence, and indeed, no reason for them to leave LA in order to become ascended. the fact that this did happen suggest that the mursaat overlooked something, just as they may have overlooked the full implications bringing the searing to ascalon may have had.

theres also another party who had the power to bring about the searing that i beleive you all overlooked: Gwen. after feeding upon the energys of countless warriors defending ascalon during the guildwars, gwen finally decides the time is right and conspires with the charr to bring fiery death to all...
then again, maybe not.

[Arctus Redryn]

But see, destroying someone's homeland is the perfect reason for someone to leave said homeland. The Mursaat are not that stupid. Plus, now the Charr have a powerful magick they can use on the Mursaat if they so choose (and probably tried). It would make more sense to, under your scenario, to give the humans of Ascalon the power of Searing magick in order to wipe out the Charr and make it so they have to stay right where they are.


Actually, it was fortunate you were on a scouting mission when the Searing happened. That is why you were not caught in the storm and survived. Had you not been on such a mission, it would be very likely that you would have perished from the Searing.

As for what you think the Mursaat should have done, that only removes a foe who could possibly destroy the Ascendants. It only helps the Ascendants.



Also, if such was the case, we'd expect to see Mursaat effigies before the Searing, as the Charr would have been like "Oh snap, these here golden floaters gave us some powerful sh-tuff," but instead we find Titan effigies near the Searing alter, suggesting that the Titans were the ones who influenced the Charr and possibly had some influence on the Searing.


Not sure about this one, but I know the Charr "worship mysterious gods," which could refer either to the Mursaat or to the Charr.



It just isn't logical for the Mursaat to have given the Charr the Searing power, nor is it supported by the facts. Plus, if the Mursaat had this power, why didn't they use it again? Instead of rooting through the jungle to find the Shining Blade, why didn't they sear it, or the Southern Shiverpeaks, why not sear that? Obviously the Mursaat would have more control over the searing magicks than the Charr would, if they had given it to them, yet instead, they fight a war with the Charr hand-to-hand. Why didn't they just give the White Mantle searing magicks? Because they don't have that kind of magick to give away.

First, much of our thoughts on the origin of the Searing magic is not supported by facts, as I noted previously, seeing as there is little that speaks of the nature of the Searing. Most of what we have come up with is logical deduction.

Second, when the Ascendants are in Kryta and the Jungle, how would the Mursaat know the Ascendants survived and escaped to the Shining Blade, given that the survival was a matter of luck? Therefore, they would have no reason to use the Searing again.

While the Ascendants were in the Shiverpeaks, yes the Mursaat probably knew about the Ascendants by then, but what if the Searing requires the power of the bloodstone of destruction (which was discussed here to perhaps be in Ascalon, as evidenced by the power of the Searing). Even if not, I am not sure if the Mursaat would want to Sear the Ascendants now that they had the Sceptor of Orr.

And in response to the Mursaat controlling the Searing magic, how do you know they could control the magic? For all we know, the Mursaat could have known how to unlock the magic of the Bloodstone of Destruction (this is just an example of one possible source of the magic) but, the magic being a new thing, been unable to understand and therefore control it.

[Quintus Antonius]

So then, the Mursaat, who knew all about the Prophecies, helped their enemies, and then allowed the only survivors of Ascalon to settle in their lands and join the White Mantle.

I don't think the Mursaat knew anything about the Chosen from Ascalon until after they defect from the White Mantle and joing the Shining Blade. Otherwise, we'd expect to have seen the Mursaat making a move against us while we still trusted them, or better yet, while we are still in Ascalon after the Searing.

What I fail to see is evidence of what you are saying. Everything said thus far is connections between very detached and highly circumstancial situations. Provide a screenshot of the Charr collaborating with the White Mantle or Mursaat, provide a screenshot of the Eye of Janthir on the Searing platform (something that the Mursaat put on everything they influence), provide some kind of evidence that supports the theory other than "Hey the Mursaat could have...."

On a side note, I think way too often, people discount the Titans and Charr as stupid. Well, the Charr managed to launch a worldwide assault, and destroy two kingdoms. They aren't as stupid as people think. Just because they don't look human, doesn't mean they are less intelligent. Also, the Titans are highly arcane, so of course they seem odd to us, their ways of communication and thought are completely different. They are most likely like the Borg, as in, they have a collective intelligence or hive mind. Mularc's research shows that the Titans have some sort of organization, and may have also influenced the Charr culture, maybe even had some contact with them. The Charr have an awful lot of "Shamen" and priests, I'd say they have some way of summoning Titan spirits and communicating with them.

[Arctus Redryn]

So then, the Mursaat, who knew all about the Prophecies, helped their enemies, and then allowed the only survivors of Ascalon to settle in their lands and join the White Mantle.


I still do not understand why you keep saying the Mursaat are helping their enemies. Who are these supposed enemies they are helping? The Ascendants? The Charr?

For your second point, as I said, if the Mursaat had given the Charr the Searing magic (and I say if), then they would believe the Ascendants gone. So why not allow any stragglers from Ascalon, who would be of little consequence to the Mursaat, settle in Kryta? As for allowing a group of Ascalons join the White Mantle, of course the Mursaat are going to do so, they think the Ascendants are gone, so this group could not be the Ascendants, and they obtained the Sceptor of Orr for them! Why, some thanks are in order.



I don't think the Mursaat knew anything about the Chosen from Ascalon until after they defect from the White Mantle and joing the Shining Blade. Otherwise, we'd expect to have seen the Mursaat making a move against us while we still trusted them, or better yet, while we are still in Ascalon after the Searing.


Is this not exactly what I am trying to say? They do NOT know about the Chosen until after they take the Sceptor of Orr and give it to the Vizier. They DO know about the Chosen when the Chosen are in Ascalon, but given that the Charr Seared Ascalon, the Mursaat believe them gone.



What I fail to see is evidence of what you are saying. Everything said thus far is connections between very detached and highly circumstancial situations. Provide a screenshot of the Charr collaborating with the White Mantle or Mursaat, provide a screenshot of the Eye of Janthir on the Searing platform (something that the Mursaat put on everything they influence), provide some kind of evidence that supports the theory other than "Hey the Mursaat could have...."


I think you also do not see that there is very little physical evidence about the origins of the Searing. As I said, much of what has been said in this thread has been theory. However, there were those Charr wood structures that resemble upright things with roughly symmetrical splayed branches. Could be Mursaat.

I must say, however, that I am not getting anywhere convincing you, and instead of taking more space on this thread, I want to note it has been a good debate, far more interesting than most of the other threads I have posted in. I will be looking for more evidence, but for now, I am going to let this drop.

[Jahiri]

why would the mursaat let the charr kill humans? i think they would be capable themselfs to do that. why travel all the way to the charr, tell them to do something, ( which they could easly do themselfs ) and then go all the way back? it doesnt make sense. im sorry if i misunderstood something that you said or if this is already mentioned.

[Endamir]

why would the mursaat let the charr kill humans? i think they would be capable themselfs to do that. why travel all the way to the charr, tell them to do something, ( which they could easly do themselfs ) and then go all the way back? it doesnt make sense. im sorry if i misunderstood something that you said or if this is already mentioned.
Well the Mursaat ARE known as the Unseen Ones, so actually they DIDN'T want to do anything directly themselves in order for their agenda not to be discovered.

[Quintus Antonius]

Actually, they are just called the Unseen Ones because Saul D'Alessio made claims of them being gods without anyone actually ever seeing them but him, not because they were literally invisable.

[Drec Sutal]

Actually, they literally are invisible to most people, I think. That's why we had to go to the desert and ascend: it gave us the ability to see the mursaat.

[teh Monkeys]

The game is very vague about ascension. We need to be weh-no-su (sp?) to be able to see Shiro, and we needed to ascend in order to..

I don't know actually. Khilbron told us that we needed to ascend in order to "see the unseen". Then again, Khilbron is hardly trustworthy. I think Khilbron led us to believe that we had to ascend. Because the seal on the door of komalie could only be broken by ascended chosen.

He was the flameseeker, afterall.

[Endamir]

By chosen - yes, ascended chosen - IMO not necessarily. Khilbron told us to ascend only that we could have a chance in the fight against the Mursaat.
So, for example, if the Mursaat left the Ring of Fire Island Chain for some reason, and then a non-ascended chosen went there, he could also break the seal on the Door.

[Quintus Antonius]

Actually, they literally are invisible to most people, I think. That's why we had to go to the desert and ascend: it gave us the ability to see the mursaat.

The how did Confessor Dorian, the Krytans, the White Mantle, the Seers, the Shining Blade, the Lich, and the Dwarves all see the Mursaat without Ascending? Perhaps you can explain that.

The Vizier was speaking metaphorically. He knew that the Chosen Ascending would be the last straw that would make the Mursaat take action, and reveal themselves. He also knew that it was a necessary step towards fulfilling the Prophecy (which he wanted to fulfill word-for-word, so any unAscended Chosen wouldn't have been taken with his aide to the Fire Islands.

[Drec Sutal]

The how did Confessor Dorian, the Krytans, the White Mantle, the Seers, the Shining Blade, the Lich, and the Dwarves all see the Mursaat without Ascending? Perhaps you can explain that.

It could be something like the envoys... they can choose to reveal themselves, unless you are closer to the stars... then you see them even if they don't want you to. Since both things get you into FoW/UW, it could be mursaat have the same power as the envoys.

[Quintus Antonius]

I'd think it'd be much more effective to wipe out your enemies while staying invisable.

The Envoys revealed themselves to their allies, the Mursaat revealed themselves to everyone. They aren't stupid, I don't think they'd give up the huge tactical advantage of invisability.

[False Visage]

Not to mention that the process of Tyrian Acension must be different for different people. As far as we know, the Margonian and Elonian groups were not Chosen, or at least not largely; yet the main characters all descend from Doric which is supposed to give them an advantage. No doubt in purely Lore terms the point of Acension was to awaken all the latent abilities in the characters, whereas Weh no Su in Cantha was the same for everyone; it granted the ability to see the spirits freely.

The game is unfortunately a little vague about this and it does sound like one must be Ascended to see the Mursaat. Perhaps it is a Human deficiency, and that the Dwarves can see creatures like the Mursaat freely. Along with the Chosen in the Blades this explains their enemies ability to see them, and we can of course assume they freely show themselves to their allies (or pawns, whichever you think more appropriate).

[Quintus Antonius]

Not to mention that the process of Tyrian Acension must be different for different people. As far as we know, the Margonian and Elonian groups were not Chosen, or at least not largely; yet the main characters all descend from Doric which is supposed to give them an advantage. No doubt in purely Lore terms the point of Acension was to awaken all the latent abilities in the characters, whereas Weh no Su in Cantha was the same for everyone; it granted the ability to see the spirits freely.

No, you are confusing the state of being Ascended and being Chosen. The Chosen are the Chosen regardless, and only those of Dorian descent can be Chosen, however, anyone can Ascend. Being Chosen, coupled with Ascension, is what brings out the latent abilities present in a Chosen, however, anyone can Ascend to "gain the favor of the gods" as it was. Also, it's important to remember that groups like the Elonians came to Ascend for the purpose of fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophecies. They didn't realize they also had to be Chosen, or were confused as to what the term "Chosen" means. Ascension and Weh no Su are essentially the same thing, they are just different ways of reaching it.


The game is unfortunately a little vague about this and it does sound like one must be Ascended to see the Mursaat. Perhaps it is a Human deficiency, and that the Dwarves can see creatures like the Mursaat freely. Along with the Chosen in the Blades this explains their enemies ability to see them, and we can of course assume they freely show themselves to their allies (or pawns, whichever you think more appropriate).

The Chosen in the Shining Blade aren't Ascended, nor are anyone in the White Mantle. Unless they all went to Cantha and became Weh no Su, and came back, which is a bit unlikely.

As for the Dwarves, I agree, perhaps they do have abilities that aren't the same as humans, but I find it unlikely, as the two are most likely cousin species.

And then there is Saul D'Alessio, who by all accounts surprised the Mursaat. Perhaps the Mursaat can cloak themselves, but I find it unplausible that they are naturally invisable at all times to everyone.

[Zaxares]

And then there is Saul D'Alessio, who by all accounts surprised the Mursaat. Perhaps the Mursaat can cloak themselves, but I find it unplausible that they are naturally invisable at all times to everyone.

I also find this unlikely. Considering that there are several instances in the game where the Mursaat come into conflict with non-Ascended creatures (like the Stone Summit, Ice Imps, Tundra Giants) who seem to be able to see them perfectly well, I think the term "Unseen Gods" is merely a figurative one.

[Quintus Antonius]

Yes, you also have to examine the status of how the Old Gods interacted with Tyria. Whether you are refering to when they walked on Tyria, or lived in Arah, or modern times, when they have statues, visitable realms, and avatars, the Old Gods were very much visable.

Then here comes Saul D'Alessio, preaching about "gods" no one had ever seen. He didn't give them the name "Unseen Ones", we really don't know what he called them, it was the people of Kryta that gave them the name, because they were unseen by them.

[False Visage]

Nono, I'm aware of the differences.

What I said was:

1. It's unclear what effect being Chosen would have on Ascension. We know of other attempting it but are the only ones in the game that clearly do it, there may be subtle suggestions of others. So, I was merely suggesting that depending on latent abilities, race and bloodline Ascension could have different effects.

2.That Weh no Su grants vision to the spiritworld, which is central to the Factions story but considering the suggestion that the Celestial Ministeries also have this power, or a lesser version of it chances are it's not as profound. Considering that Acension is by the grace of the gods, and Weh no Su is merely the celestial powers it's not surprising.

3. That Dwarves are a different race to Humans. We don't know how different in terms of pyhsiology and latent abilities compared to humans as it's not explored in great depth. If the Mursaat do hide themselves like Shiro did, it could be because Dwarves have some latent ability to see spectral entities such as the Mursaat. That said we only see Brechnar Ironhammer engage in direct combat with the Mursaat from the Dwarves, and considering he is brother to the King and therefore of royal blood, there's also a possibility of abilities bestowed by that.


However, I feel the most likely scenario is that the Mursaat can make themselves invisible to most people (except perhaps those Ascended) for a period of time at will. Most likely the Mursaat didn't leave the Door of Komalie and any other possible bases very often, and when they did they kept to their human allies mostly. So, there wouldn't be much need to use this ability anyway, and even if it's not difficult to do it's likely an annoying chore. They're described as spectral beings, and a trait of spectres is being able to disappear and reappear so it makes sense.

[Camaris Spectre]

Mursaat and the searing: Ooops didn't mean to drive this thread off topic.. again the crystals just looked to me like Mursaat tech to me.

The only reason I can think of that the Mursaat would want the searing is if they knew somehow that it was going to be chosen from Ascalon that would be thier undoing. Hmm..

If the Mursaat truly are near-gods then they COULD be pretty subtle. If they suspected that the real danger lay in the chosen of Ascalon and knew what the Scepter of Orr was then they could achieve a great deal with just a little tech transfer:

1. Destroy Ascalon and take a lot of chosen with it.
2. Blow up a lot of Charr at the same time, possibly ruin the Charr homelands too.
3. Weaken Orr and kill a lot of Charr in the process (blowing up Orr was probably not in the plan).
4. Cement the white mantle's hold on Krytia and.. oh yes.. kill a lot of Charr in the process.

Again I have zero evidence for any of this other than it's a beautiful thing when your enemies annihilate each other..

[Gmr Leon]

If Orr still existed and the Charr never came in and slaughtered the Orrians wouldn't there be a war between Kryta and Orr? Because the Orrians were devout in their beliefs the White Mantle's worshipping of the Unseen Ones would be blasphemy to the Old Gods. Even if they were a peaceful people I think even they would be offended to the point of war by the White Mantle's worship of the Unseen Ones..

[Quintus Antonius]

If that never happened, it's likely that the Charr wouldn't have invaded Kryta and caused the White Mantle to rise and defend it.

Also, the Crystals look nothing like "Mursaat tech". They look more like they came from Glint's Lair (not that I'm saying they did or anything).

[lavenbb]

Didn't one of those elementalist NPCs said those crystals from the searing are brimstones? those aren't unique substances..

[Quintus Antonius]

Can you find out more about that, if possible?

[lavenbb]

okay, turns out it wasn't an NPC afterall.. (I remember reading about it, but forgot where).


anyway, in the official site lore page, history of Tyria:


Each kingdom dealt with the invasion in a different way. Ascalon stood their ground, having no place else to turn. Though their forces were depleted, they managed to rally behind the Great Northern Wall. But their defense was short lived. In a magical battle that would eventually be looked upon as the turning point for Ascalon (now referred to as the Searing), the Charr brought down fire and brimstone, destroying everything on the open plain for hundreds of miles. Their magic scorched the ground and the human cities as they swept through the Wall and moved on to Orr. The surviving humans of Ascalon have since retaken the Wall and have held it against periodic attacks, but there is little left of this once-prosperous empire.


Brimstone, according to wiki, was an ancient name for the element sulfur. Sulfur is usually yellow, but brimstones in GW is not.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9335/gw010om6.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw010om6.jpg)

That pretty much invalidates any real life references regarding brimstones' properties, but according to Erudine, they're possibly radioactive (she talks about how the crystals seemed to have a drastic effect on local wildlife)

[Ranger Nietzsche]

i think the sites use of "fire and brimstone" is purely metaphorical for destruction of a hellish variety

[Quintus Antonius]

I agree with Nietzsche, here. "Fire and Brimstone" is a metaphor for fiery destruction.

[Camaris Spectre]

Also, the Crystals look nothing like "Mursaat tech". They look more like they came from Glint's Lair (not that I'm saying they did or anything).

Eye of the beholder, I guess. All we can really say is: "Yep, those were crystals falling on Ascalon" and "Yep, Glint and the Mursaat like to have crystalline looking servants".

[Ranger Nietzsche]

Eye of the beholder, I guess. All we can really say is: "Yep, those were crystals falling on Ascalon" and "Yep, Glint and the Mursaat like to have crystalline looking servants".

hehe, first thing I thought was "There are no beholders in GW, silly"

>< too much Baldur's Gate in my recent past.

[Sable Phoenix]

Nobody's mentioned anything about the Seers yet.

We know the Seers were at war with the Mursaat and wanted them destroyed. What if the Seers somehow gave the Charr the ability to cause the Searing, specifically to kick off the Flameseeker Prophecies that would result in the rout of their hated enemy?

I have no evidence. Just a random thought that crossed my mind while reading the thread.

[False Visage]

I must say, there's no evidence the Charr actually had outside influence. There are alters that look like the Mursaat and Titans if you look at them abstractly yes, but nothing to solidly prove that the Charr are not capable of it themselves. We've seen they specialise in fire Magic, and we've never seen the grand commanders of the Charr; their government or their upper social classes besides the Fire Keepers. Even without the searing the Charr did very well in their campaign against Orr, I think don't think anyone gives the Charr all the credit they deserve honestly.

[Quintus Antonius]

I agree with you FV. Although I think it is still plausible there may be outside influence.

However (and now I'm just nitpicking), those Titan effigies look exactly like Titans. Nothing abstract about them.

[Sable Phoenix]

Okay, I've been thinking about the Searing and some of the things mentioned in this thread, specifically that weather patterns remained magically disrupted over the Seared area and that is why the land remains as barren as it did even two years afterward. As has been mentioned in this thread, there had to be some sort of constant drought for those two years otherwise the ecosphere would have started re-establishing itself.

I was thinking then that this explains Stormcaller's importance. When I first saw it, I thought, "Wow... it makes rain. Big deal. That's no weapon." But when you think that there hasn't been any significant amount of rain for two whole years, then that is a big deal. Besides making the Charr weak and confused (which implies that they are some sort of poikilothermic creature, but that's a separate subject), Stormcaller appears to have been powerful enough to break the magical miasma over Ascalon and bring down the rain that had been held off for so long.

This made me think that Stormcaller's use would have marked a turning point for Ascalon. Of course they can't show this in game because of the static nature of the world, but after Stormcaller broke the effect of the Searing magic, I think it's safe to assume that the land would begin to experience normal weather patterns again and would start to recover, becoming green again within a few growing seasons (though naturally it would be nothing close to the way it was Pre-Searing). I find this heartening; post-Searing Ascalon is just plain ugly and it's nice to think that the blowing of Stormcaller put it on the path to recovery.

[Apu]

Hi all.

Off topic- Can ppl see the Mursaat?
If u remember the "Iron Mines Of Muladune" bonus you encounter a Shining Blade prisioner that talks to you about some interogations She just went thru by a powerfull Mursaat. Meaning that SHE saw the mursaat while it was interogating her. Meaning that the mursaat are not invicible (at least from my point of view) cause if u where th interoate someone it is better to not show yourself (if u have the ability) and play tricks to his mind. At least thats wut i think, and also there are LOTS of evidence that normal people can see them.

On topic-THe searing.
I dont know why ppl keep saying that someone gave the Charr the power to sear Ascalon. We have evidence (in the form of quest dialogue) that the Charr are looking for something in the Catacombs. THe thing is that the Charr being the inteligent race (yes also primitive) they are found this special perk they needed and used its power to achieve victory over the first obstacle to the human world, the great wall and the ascalonians. The question that remain in my mind is:

How they came to the knowledge of such a thing?
Maybe the Charr knew human history and found about the history behind humans and their gods. Remember that if u want to defeat some one u have to know its ways. That would xplain their direct advance towards the city of the Arah.
How the charr knew about human history?
The Charr ocupied all ascalonian territory to the north of the Great Wall. Giving them time to translate (if they speak Charr language and not common language like humans, centaurs,dwarves and dragons) the books in the Nolani Academy. Remember that the Charr have proven us countless times that they are inteligent and capable of doing mass strategies and have a solid comand line.(If u are not familiar with those plz read the Quest Dialogues and objectives.) Also they recognise royalty among humas. (Remember Althea).

I hope i do have some reasonable points.

Have a nice day.

------------------added-----------------------------

If u going to ask how i know bout the centaurs talking common language i based that in the fact that one of the heroes is a Centaur that speaks to you. The source of that is November issue of PC GAMER mag.

[Quintus Antonius]

Off topic- Can ppl see the Mursaat?
If u remember the "Iron Mines Of Muladune" bonus you encounter a Shining Blade prisioner that talks to you about some interogations She just went thru by a powerfull Mursaat. Meaning that SHE saw the mursaat while it was interogating her. Meaning that the mursaat are not invicible (at least from my point of view) cause if u where th interoate someone it is better to not show yourself (if u have the ability) and play tricks to his mind. At least thats wut i think, and also there are LOTS of evidence that normal people can see them.

Yes, "Unseen Ones" simply refers to the fact that Saul D'Alessio preached and coverted people to a faith that had gods no one had seen, whereas the original Old Gods were walking among Tyrian and had been able to be visable apparently.



On topic-THe searing.
I dont know why ppl keep saying that someone gave the Charr the power to sear Ascalon. We have evidence (in the form of quest dialogue) that the Charr are looking for something in the Catacombs. THe thing is that the Charr being the inteligent race (yes also primitive) they are found this special perk they needed and used its power to achieve victory over the first obstacle to the human world, the great wall and the ascalonians. The question that remain in my mind is:

That's highly circumstancial evidence. Although I personally believe it is probable and likely the Charr had outside help, there is not much evidence to support that.




How they came to the knowledge of such a thing?
Maybe the Charr knew human history and found about the history behind humans and their gods. Remember that if u want to defeat some one u have to know its ways. That would xplain their direct advance towards the city of the Arah.
How the charr knew about human history?
The Charr ocupied all ascalonian territory to the north of the Great Wall. Giving them time to translate (if they speak Charr language and not common language like humans, centaurs,dwarves and dragons) the books in the Nolani Academy. Remember that the Charr have proven us countless times that they are inteligent and capable of doing mass strategies and have a solid comand line.(If u are not familiar with those plz read the Quest Dialogues and objectives.) Also they recognise royalty among humas. (Remember Althea).

Well, remember, the cultures of Ascalon and the Charr co-evolved, so to say. Both cultures have occupied the same general land area since the gods gave humans magic. It is highly likely they know human history because they were there, and even if they don't, it isn't really that important that they know the history of Ascalon to conquer it. As for Althea, there are two possibilities, either they just smashed and grabbed, or they knew Althea was royality simply because she was dressed nicer than everyone else, wore royal symbols, and probably had royal attendants.



If u going to ask how i know bout the centaurs talking common language i based that in the fact that one of the heroes is a Centaur that speaks to you. The source of that is November issue of PC GAMER mag.

Also, the Centaurs talk in the Maguuma Jungle.

[Apu]

ByQA

Also, the Centaurs talk in the Maguuma Jungle.
Yeah now i remember. Thanks :D. Also i just remembered that Forgoten and Enchanted talk to you in the DUnes of Despair mission bonus. So add them to the list.

By QA

As for Althea, there are two possibilities, either they just smashed and grabbed, or they knew Althea was royality simply because she was dressed nicer than everyone else, wore royal symbols, and probably had royal attendants.

For me the Charr does not just smash and grab, they have purpose in they attacks. So, they may have do that (but we cant be certain) or they just knew (we cant be certain either). I just want to know more bout them, their culture seems interesting.

Have a nice day